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🎙️ Bunkhouse Podcast – Jack Hager Interview · Military Broadcast Radio | MBR Talk

0:08
There were times I was looking at myself in the mirror, like,
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dude, why are you putting on khakis?
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Where Gunny Holly, who was blown up and killed, who had two
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children? I lived in a reality for about,
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I think 15 years that it should have been me.
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Your source of strength has never been you.
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It has always been from somewhere else.
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It's just my belief that mine is from God and I, I choose to rely
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on God. I'm far from perfect.
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I screw up all the time, but my life is at peace.
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I found it in past the storm where I am at peace.
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When things got really bad, which they will, we all are
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going to have times in our life where we just can't handle some
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things. To know that reaching out for
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help is an option. It's the same as going to the
1:02
doctor. When you you can't get over the
1:03
common cold and it's turned into something crazy, sinus
1:08
infection, you got to go to a doctor and get medicine.
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It's the same with your mental health.
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Hey, everybody, and welcome back to the Bunkhouse Live here on
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military Broadcast Radio where we give veterans a voice.
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Today's guest I have is going to be Jack Hager.
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We're going to bring him on here in a minute.
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But before I do, if you could please follow the URL, the link
1:46
tree that's down here scrolling, but the bottom of the screen.
1:49
Find any platform that I'm sure I'm sharing any kind of content
1:52
on. Like it, follow it, share it.
1:54
Please get as many people on on here as you can.
1:57
Also, before we get started, as I always like to start out with,
2:02
if anybody out there is having any issues or having problems,
2:05
just know that you're not alone. There's going to be help out
2:07
there for you. If you could dial 988 and use
2:10
option one for all the veteran crisis helplines.
2:13
So again, you're not alone. All right.
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And so I'll go ahead and bring all my guest, Jack.
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Hey, Jack, we're on to the book house.
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How's it going? It is going great because I get
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to talk to you #1 I appreciate the fact that the program exists
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and #2I appreciate you being alerted to my availability by a
2:34
mutual friend and I'm excited about doing this.
2:38
No, thank you, Thank you. And I thank you for for being
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available today. If you could go ahead and give
2:44
everybody kind of a little bit of a background on you
2:46
introduction or so tell us what what you did and and when you
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served. Well, let me backtrack a little
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bit because I was an Army brat. I graduated high school in 1965.
3:00
Yes, I am older than dirt, but I've moved out when I was 14
3:05
doing dumb stuff and so I was on my own.
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But I I played it safe and I never flashed my gun, never
3:12
flashed the drugs, never flashed anything.
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Graduated from high school, was given a couple of scholarships.
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But I said to myself self, I don't want to go to no more
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school. But at the same time 1965
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Vietnam was starting to get a little hot and heavy and I said
3:28
I don't want to get dead neither.
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So I went down and talked to my I talked to a Navy group, Navy
3:33
recruiter first, wasn't too impressed, talked to an Army
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recruiter, took the test and after a couple days he said, Mr.
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Hager, you are exactly what the Army Security Agency is looking
3:45
for. And if you enlist for four
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years, you probably won't even go overseas much.
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Let's go to Vietnam. I fell for it, went to basic
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training, went to AIT, went to intelligence.
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You know, the ultimate oxymoron. Military intelligence.
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Went to a challenge in the school in Fort Devens, Mass, got
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a jet, went to the Republic of South Korea for 25 months.
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South Korea. When I was in high school, I
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couldn't even pronounce marijuana.
4:11
It was something that was still downtown.
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LA hasn't quite come up the hill.
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My drug of choice was Coors, Jack Daniels and Johnnie Walker
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Red. I don't know if I would be
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classified as an alcoholic when I graduated, but I think I was
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Korea. I introduced myself to weed, not
4:30
because of the army, but because I was in Korea.
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It was readily available. I liked it, smoked grass for a
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while. My dream at that time, It was a
4:39
year long tour. I extended for a year.
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I wanted to extend again and finish out my tour in Korea and
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stay in Korea, hook up with a Korean chick, open a bar and
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stay there the rest of my life. The military wouldn't let me, so
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I on my dream sheet I put in for two league, Greenland, Synop,
4:57
Turkey and some other place I can't remember which were
5:00
so-called hardship tours 'cause I still didn't want to go to
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Vietnam. So the military in its never
5:07
ending wisdom sent me to Germany, which is typically a
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three-year tour. I report to the CEO in Germany.
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He looks at me and he says I see you're in E5 and I yes Sir.
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You're on your first enlistment. Yes, Sir, You don't deserve your
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stripes, and I'm going to do everything I can to bust you.
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Right away. I knew I wasn't going to like
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this guy. And, and you and the audience
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listen carefully. This is 1968.
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He happened to be an African American, so it's a different
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time zone. I don't know if he didn't like
5:40
me because I was white or because he genuinely didn't like
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the fact that I was given my stripes and in in truth I was
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'cause we are in the same theatre as Vietnam, they had
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stripes to give away. They asked me to go to an E6
5:52
board and I said I am not going to get on a helicopter and come
5:56
to Saigon to get an E6 board. Anyway, at that time the
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Russians were good enough to invade Czechoslovakia.
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So two weeks ahead of time we went out in the field and during
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that time I-10 49 volunteered to go to Vietnam.
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Not because I wanted to be a hero, but because they're only
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two ways out of Germany. Either go to Nam or re enlist.
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And I wouldn't re enlist for two days, for a three day pass.
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So I went to Nam, did my stuff there, introduced myself to some
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other kind of drugs, got out of the military in July of 1969,
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honorably discharged. In no way do I regret my
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military service. I regret the way in which we
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gave away Vietnam. But that may be another story
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for another time. I loved Korea, I hated Germany.
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Vietnam was a high was a rush as only people that have been in
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combat and I was on the front lines.
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But I was I was attached to the 11th armored cab.
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So I would sit there in the turret with a 50 caliber machine
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gun couldn't hit the broadside of a barn at the 50, but it sure
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could scare the snot out of people.
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I don't regret my military service.
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I don't blame my military service for my screwed up life.
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I'm really big on personal responsibility.
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Certainly things contribute to the choices we make, but we all
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have the power of choice and it's kind of got that Don't do
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the crime if you can't do the time type stuff.
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So I I am empathetic and sympathetic to people that are
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going through stuff. But at some point you got to
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take charge of your life. Do everything you can to
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stabilize, but at some point you got to take that charge and move
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ahead. Yeah, I can definitely tell.
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So like I can only speak to you like my generation of service
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member and how it was when we came home from deployments and
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whenever we transitioned out of the military.
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What were some things that kind of caught you off guard, have
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surprised you about transitioning during that time?
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Because I know we. Were aware, you know, July 1969,
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we were aware and we probably were briefed.
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I don't know of the anti military sentiments in the
8:09
United States and I didn't understand it then.
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I'm not sure I understand it now.
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I'm just very, very grateful that even the people that were
8:19
against Iraq and Afghanistan, etcetera, were not against the
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Warrior. And I, I'm very glad of that.
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I think like most protests, the majority of people had no idea
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what they were doing there. They were just having a party.
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But we landed at Travis. Somehow a bunch of protesters
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had gotten on the field. The air police and the military
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police and some other people were trying to make a corridor
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through them. So for like an hour we're
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sitting on this jet and finally they opened the door and I was
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about halfway back. I hit the door and the first
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round eye I see is a stone cold, beautiful blonde girl, probably
9:00
18 years old and she's screaming at the top of her lungs.
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How many babies did you kill in Vietnam?
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I ignored her. You'll like this.
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There was a grizzled Marine behind me and he said only as
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many as I could eat. I don't even think she hurt him.
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And we just kept going. I was discharged at that point
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and told the first thing you do is get out of your uniform.
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I said OK and I got out and hung around San Francisco for a
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while. Very three days of a days.
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I'm not even sure what happened to those three days, but I got
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drunk, I got high, I got the other stuff.
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And after a while I figured, well, I can't party forever, I'm
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running out of money. And so the readjustment, I'm
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sure it was tougher for other people that it was for me.
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I think maybe it helped me, the fact that I was an Army brat and
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moved around a lot and never had really deep roots.
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And I, I guess at that point, I would say I was in hate with
10:04
America simply because of the idiocy.
10:08
I was in Korea when the North Koreans swipe the Pueblo, that
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probably 98% of your listeners have no idea what I'm talking
10:15
about. That was the most scared I've
10:16
ever been in my life. They alerted us that the North
10:20
Koreans had seized the spy ship, the Pueblo.
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And I knew that everything we had in South Korea was nuclear
10:27
violated, everything there was. But I knew that's what we had
10:29
because of my clearance. And I thought, sure, we were
10:32
going to go to nuclear war 'cause I, I knew we weren't
10:35
going to sell these guys out. Silly me.
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We sold them out. And then, as I mentioned, I was
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in Germany two weeks ahead of time.
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They told us about it. We rolled up on the border and
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gathered as much Intel as we could as the Russians came
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across the border. Got to Nam a couple months after
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Ted 68 and it didn't take too long with boots on the ground to
10:56
realize we were going to lose. We weren't going to lose, but
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they, the higher ups were not going to let us win.
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And because of that, 58,000 names are on a wall in
11:07
Washington that in effect long term died for nothing.
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They died for their buddies, they died for the guy on the
11:14
left and the right. But in reality they died for
11:17
nothing. In addition to millions of South
11:20
Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, N Vietnamese in a
11:24
disaster that horrifically we repeated in Afghanistan and
11:29
Iraq. In fact, I don't think I ever
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had PTSD as such from Vietnam, but that day that we were
11:36
pulling out of Afghanistan, I don't recall ever being as
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furious, as mad as I was when I was just seeing Saigon in 1975
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all over again. Yeah, I can.
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I can actually relate to that a little bit.
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My first appointment in Afghanistan, we did, we
12:00
supported First Battalion 6 Marines in the offensive into
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the city of Marjah within Helmand Province.
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And then my second deployment, Afghanistan, I was with first
12:13
Battalion, 8th Marines and we had the Kajaki district up by
12:18
the at the top of the Helmand River by the dam.
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And we kind of we started turning areas over to the Afghan
12:26
National Police. And then another battalion came
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in behind us. And then they finished kind of
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that turnover in that area to, to the local army and the local
12:36
law enforcement. And, but then I want to say it
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was like a year, year and a half after we had gotten back home,
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we started seeing reports where the Taliban had came back in,
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taking over the area and stuff like that.
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So I, that's, I, I will say, I think I was more angry at seeing
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those types of things on the news and being, from being in
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those areas on deployment and seeing stuff like that after the
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fact. It's just like you said, it's
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the ones that you lose over there, the ones that get wounded
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in action. Like, what was it all for if
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that's just going to get turned back over to the people that we
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were there fighting in the first place?
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And I'm sure you have the same feelings that we did, that the
13:17
people, the locals who we said we were going to help, we just
13:23
left him. And the North Vietnamese took
13:27
care of ours by dispatching them or putting them in those prison
13:31
camps. And we've all heard the horrible
13:33
stories about what happened to those guys and women that worked
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with you. Yeah, yeah.
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So what was so when you got out in and So what did you do once
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you left the army? What were some what was kind of
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like? What was the life for Jack years
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to come after the the army? You know, how much, how much the
13:56
four years in the Army contributed to this, how much
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mental stuff was going on that I wasn't aware of?
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I do not know because I was usually high.
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I was, you know, I figured out the only way to eliminate
14:09
hangovers is stay drunk. And I kind of did.
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And but I, again, I didn't want to stay in the States.
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So I saw an ad in the San Francisco paper saying, have you
14:19
recently been just honorably discharged?
14:22
Did you have a top secret clearance?
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Come see us. So I said OK and I got hired as
14:29
a radar as a tech radar interceptor.
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I couldn't even spell radar but this was a a cost plus thing and
14:37
I got hired and went to Kwajalein in the Marshall
14:40
Islands downrange for the Pacific missile range.
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Hung around there and did nothing for like 4 months.
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Was getting paid ridiculously good.
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If I would have stayed a year they would have sent me anywhere
14:53
in the world for a month and got a terrific bonus.
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But there was a minor problem with Kwajala and it was a
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beautiful place. Things to see.
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But there were no 0 zip women except for a few dependents
15:07
there were surrounded by concertina wire, etcetera.
15:11
So I pulled the pin, came back to Hawaii, hung around there for
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a while, met a girl who was a stewardess.
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She introduced me to some men she worked for on the side
15:21
smuggling. We went to the Oregon.
15:25
These guys basically interviewed me and they hired me.
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It wasn't a mafia thing. It wasn't a huge organization.
15:32
It wasn't a racial thing. We're like the UN.
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We had blacks and whites and Chicanos.
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I don't guess that's politically correct to say Chicanos anymore,
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but I don't care. Just a bunch of guys making all
15:44
kinds of money, primarily on weed and weapons, but primarily
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weed. People don't understand now that
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it's legal in a lot of places, how much money you could make
15:57
smuggling in. And so for several years I got
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away with it and just, you know, everybody's heard those kind of
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stories. Had all kinds of money, more
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money than I could count, had all kinds of rushes, had all
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kinds of stuff. But at the end of the day, 3:00
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in the morning, 4:00 in the morning, looking up in the
16:14
darkness, thinking, is this it? Is this all there is just 40
16:19
more or 50 more years unless I get blown away of doing this.
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I I enjoyed it short term, I enjoyed being high, I enjoyed
16:29
the other fringe benefits that came.
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But at the end of the day, is this it?
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Is this all there is? And I'm not sure what I would
16:39
have done. I have never contemplated
16:42
suicide. I'm not disrespecting those
16:45
people that have it just, yeah, the cliche, a permanent solution
16:50
to a temporary problem. I just, you know, and plus, I
16:53
wasn't sure what was on the other side.
16:55
So for me, it was never an option.
16:57
It was never a temptation. But my contemplation, my
17:02
wondering what to do came to a halt in December of 1973 when I
17:07
finally got arrested big time. I've been arrested a couple
17:10
times from Mickey Mouse stuff as a kid and a couple times as an
17:13
adult where charges were dropped.
17:16
But in San Angelo, TX, I was there with my lady and our
17:20
child. We left a bar around, I don't
17:25
know, 9:00 at night to go back to the hotel to see where if the
17:28
kid is OK and all of a sudden she, she was driving.
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She said, Jack, there's a cop behind us.
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I said don't sweat the small stuff, go the speed limit a
17:37
little bit more, see what happens.
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A few minutes later they pulled us over.
17:41
They came on the horn, said you riding shotgun, get out of the
17:44
car, slide on your face and do not move.
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I looked at all the guns. I decided he had an exceedingly
17:49
good idea. I got out of the car, lay down.
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Couple minutes later they cuffed me, raised me to my feet,
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charged me. Texas had no charges on me.
18:00
They were just picking me up on a warrant from Oregon.
18:04
Most of my charges are from Oregon, a couple from
18:06
California, a couple federal charges.
18:09
The same night they popped me, they popped about 2025, the guys
18:12
in different places. Later on we found out they had a
18:15
snitch working with us. A joint interagency narcotics
18:19
squad was watching us for a while.
18:21
They finally figured they had enough to get convictions.
18:24
They busted us. So I stayed in jail in Texas for
18:28
four or five months. Then you know, I don't know if
18:31
they played rock paper scissors to figure out who had first
18:34
gives. Oregon had the most charges.
18:36
A guy I waived extradition, a sheriff came out from Oregon,
18:41
brought me back to Oregon a few months later.
18:44
I pled no contest to a bunch of charges.
18:46
Got sentenced to 10 in Oregon State prison, did 4.
18:51
While I was doing that time, California decided they weren't
18:55
going to prosecute. The feds dropped the charges,
18:57
which I thought was a great idea.
18:59
And eventually I made parole hit the street in 1977.
19:06
And that was more, even though I was only locked up for four
19:09
years, that was more of an adjustment than coming back from
19:13
the military was. And I, you know, I can't even
19:16
imagine doing 10 years or 20 years and hitting the street.
19:20
But we know a lot of guys that do that and a lot of girls that
19:23
do that. But so my quote UN quote
19:26
criminal career came to a screeching halt when I got
19:29
arrested. I had it a experience, a
19:34
spiritual experience with Jesus Christ.
19:37
Prior to arrest, I'd never been in church except for weddings
19:39
and funerals. I thought Jesus Christ is a
19:41
swear word. I knew nothing about nothing.
19:44
But in jail in Texas they found some drugs, which is not unusual
19:48
because drugs are easier to get in jail, and prison they are
19:51
than they are on the street. After a couple days of being
19:54
bored, I wasn't looking for God, I was looking for a way out.
19:58
I was almost excited about going to prison.
20:01
Because I'd never been in prison before and it was going to be a
20:03
new experience. I felt like I'd done everything
20:05
else twice and it and I really didn't care if there's a rock
20:09
song going around at the time that had the line Don't want to
20:12
Live, don't want to die. And that's pretty much where I
20:14
was. I just didn't care about
20:16
anything. And so I picked up a Bible and
20:20
started to read it. And during that process, a God
20:24
who I didn't know existed convinced me he was real.
20:27
And I got saved, born again, converted, which is my choice,
20:31
whatever word people want to use.
20:33
And I recognize that all you, that all your listeners can
20:35
resonate with that. But it was obviously to, well,
20:39
not necessarily obviously it was to me the second best thing.
20:45
Being arrested was the second best thing that had happened to
20:48
me because as a result of the arrest, Jesus Christ offered
20:51
himself to me and I accepted him.
20:53
And the four years in prison were times of spiritual growth
20:57
and get out of prison. My first job was a minister of
21:01
sanitation, otherwise known as a janitor in a church in
21:05
California. And then I ended up going to a
21:08
Bible school in Kansas City. And since late 1978, I've been
21:13
in full time vocational youth prison camp, church ministry.
21:19
And here I am 79 years old and I'm still doing it.
21:23
And I'm amazed I get to do what I get to do.
21:26
I have dealt with depression in dealing with depression a few
21:30
years ago was diagnosed with blood cancer.
21:33
Vietnam, the gift that keeps on giving.
21:36
And you know, I'm, you know, I'm trying to differentiate between
21:40
what is the chemo doing, what is the cancer doing and what is
21:44
just being an old fart doing, you know, So there's the only
21:48
real effect I have from the treatment is fatigue fog.
21:54
But is that just because I'm older than dirt or is because of
21:57
the chemo or mixture of the two? And so my, my life, my ministry
22:02
has been affected primarily by fatigue.
22:05
A nap is a wonderful thing until you have to take one.
22:09
And, you know, so most days I take an hour, hour and a half
22:13
nap and I don't move as quick as I used to.
22:16
I have to watch my balance some other things, but I I'm still
22:22
kicking. I'm still doing youth work.
22:24
And you know, it's, yeah, that's that's the Jack Hager story in a
22:29
reasonable nutshell. No, that's, that's awesome.
22:32
Jack and I, and I think I, I've noticed with we even with my
22:37
generation and, and, and probably the, even the
22:39
generations between mine and yours, a lot of times that
22:44
healing of depression or PTSD, the anxiety.
22:49
I, I've found that a lot of us really kind of get drawn to, to
22:56
Jesus and God and in building that relationship to be part of
22:59
that healing process to help us get through some of those darker
23:03
times and some of those hard times.
23:06
You know, because we, we've, we figured out the things that we
23:08
try to do on our own and, and, and try to fix it ourselves
23:12
don't necessarily work. And we think they might work at
23:16
the time, but it's, it's, it's doing this more harm than it is
23:18
good. A lot of times when we try to
23:20
fix them ourselves, right? Yeah, and, and I, I know you're
23:24
not, and I don't want to be simplistic.
23:26
Come to Jesus and all your problems are over.
23:28
That's crap. That's not.
23:29
Oh, no. Yeah, absolutely.
23:31
Healthy and wealthy, etcetera and so forth.
23:33
In fact, I would argue to some degree, being a genuine follower
23:39
of the genuine Christ is probably going to put a target
23:43
on you, and in some ways it's going to be a little tougher.
23:45
But I am thankful there are other ways, other organizations,
23:52
other outreaches that are trying to help veterans and others that
23:56
are dealing with mental stuff, that mental illness is not in
24:02
the closet like it used to be not too many years ago.
24:05
That admitting that you have mental stuff is not shameful,
24:12
sure, but some people it still is.
24:13
But it shouldn't. But but the majority of people
24:17
are aware that it's like cancer, it's an illness.
24:20
And regardless of what caused it or didn't 'cause it, it's there.
24:24
And for a guy or a girl to say, you know what, I'm sick of this,
24:28
I need to get some help. And obviously my perspective,
24:32
I'd love for them to come to faith in Jesus Christ, but I'd
24:35
love for them if there's someone listening now who's dealing with
24:39
it, who has yet to get help. Suck it up, dude.
24:44
Get some help. There are people that love you,
24:46
that want to help you, that have many who have been there done
24:49
that. And you don't have to be in that
24:52
condition. You don't have to be in that
24:54
valley. You don't have to be in that
24:56
darkness. It's not going to be easy, but
24:58
there are ways out and every SEC, every second you delay it
25:03
is going to make it ever tougher to get out of it.
25:07
No, you're absolutely right. And that's and that's part of
25:09
the what I'm trying to do. And a lot of veterans that I
25:12
know that that are kind of do the same thing with a podcast or
25:15
some type of online presence and like content creation.
25:18
That's a lot of that's what we're trying to do is break that
25:20
stigma, letting everybody know that it's OK to ask for help,
25:23
it's OK to talk about what's going on.
25:26
Because again, a lot of us have, again, regardless of generation,
25:29
a lot of us kind of deal with where we go through a lot of the
25:33
same things, different scenarios that got us to those.
25:36
But a lot of the same things. We all there's, we have a lot of
25:39
anxiety, there's depressive states.
25:41
There's things that we think about on a regular basis that
25:44
aren't, aren't always the light side of it.
25:47
It's, there's a lot of dark things that we think about.
25:49
So, yeah, I know it it, I, I am happy to see that there are a
25:54
lot more veterans now that are, are voicing about mental health
25:58
and that it is OK to talk about it, that it is OK to get help.
26:01
Because I can only imagine what it what it was like during your
26:05
time in the Army. But even my time in the Marine
26:08
Corps in the early 2000s when we were plussing up in Afghanistan
26:12
and kind of and, and kind of almost starting to wind down a
26:16
bit, a little bit in Iraq. Like it was, you didn't talk
26:20
about anything mental health. If you mentioned that you
26:24
weren't, weren't feeling good or weren't you, you were thinking
26:26
about certain things in a certain way.
26:28
Like you immediately got labeled as as being weak or couldn't
26:33
provide to the mission anymore and you just kind of got pushed
26:36
aside. They didn't really even help you
26:37
either. It would, they looked at more of
26:39
a way of, of, of getting you out of, of, of service completely a
26:42
lot of times. And it's kind of setting you to
26:44
the side and leaving you behind in a sense.
26:46
So a lot of us, again, you probably felt the same way some
26:50
and like you just didn't talk about it, you bottled it up, you
26:52
didn't talk about it. And when things would get
26:55
overwhelming, you just find other ways to kind of help
26:59
suppress that, you know, and it's just, and it's always not
27:01
the the healthiest ways that you, you find to suppress those
27:04
types of things. And I think, I mean back in my
27:08
day and I'm sure back in years, there's a minority of people who
27:12
fake the mental stuff trying to get a medical.
27:14
Discharge or something? And they make it bad for
27:17
everybody that's genuinely struggling with it.
27:20
And I am not really happy with those kind of people.
27:23
But it's true in life too. In civilian life, there are
27:26
people that are soaking up sympathy by yeah, I, I don't
27:35
want to be too harsh, but I, I just, there's a thin line
27:40
between cynicism and realism. And I try to be real and I try
27:45
to be, I try to be real myself and I want people to be real
27:47
with me. And I don't want to get to where
27:49
I suspect everybody or wonder if everybody is playing the game.
27:53
It's sort of, kind of like for many years I didn't identify as
27:58
a non vet. I wasn't ashamed of it, but I
28:01
just didn't want to I I didn't want to get the you know, I
28:04
didn't go to VFWI didn't go to that kind of stuff.
28:08
Simply Chris me. I didn't want to be in a bar #1
28:12
and in the early days, I knew that there were at least some
28:16
VFW's that if a Nam that went there, he was hammered by the
28:20
World War 2IN Korea guys, you weren't even in a real war.
28:23
So I stayed away from that primarily because of alcohol.
28:27
I knew I was 11 sip from the sewer.
28:31
And at the same time, I guess because of Afghanistan and Iraq,
28:36
I decide, you know what, I'm going to wear a hat, I'm going
28:39
to wear a shirt. I'm going to do something.
28:41
Maybe another vet can reach out to me and maybe I can be of
28:45
encouragement or something to them.
28:47
And I kicked myself in the butt for not doing it earlier.
28:50
You sure? I get those attaboys from people
28:55
that weren't there, that weren't Vietnam vets that want to kind
28:59
of make up, like you were saying early, kind of want to make up
29:02
for the way we're welcomed home. And I appreciate that.
29:05
And I was just with a friend of mine a couple days ago in a
29:08
Chinese restaurant eating food. And the the Chinese waitress
29:13
came over and said no pay, no pay.
29:15
And I said, what? Somebody else pay?
29:17
Somebody else pay. I say who?
29:19
And she said him, I looked at him and he said she wasn't
29:23
supposed to tell you, thank you for your service.
29:25
Thank you for your service. I want to pick up the bill and I
29:29
appreciated that. And I've had that happen a few
29:31
times. That's not like I told him, hey,
29:33
it's cool. I got this hat for $0.50, the
29:35
Salvation Army. I've got all kinds of free
29:37
stuff. And we laughed about it.
29:39
Oddly enough, he wasn't a vet. He didn't have any relatives
29:42
that were a vet. He just wanted to thank thank me
29:46
for my service and paid for the meal.
29:48
And that is not the reason I wear the hat.
29:50
But that's kind of a fringe benefit.
29:52
But I've connected with a lot of guys and been able to pray with
29:56
them, but able to point them in a in a place where they might
29:59
get help or or just give them a hug and say welcome home dude.
30:02
And the cancer diagnosis wasn't on my bucket list but and here
30:07
it's probably going to get. Not necessarily controversial,
30:10
but maybe. I know the VA gets a lot of bad
30:15
press, but the VA has been stupendous for me.
30:19
There's a clinic here in St. Joseph, MO, and I had my
30:22
physical there a few years ago and they said everything looks
30:26
good. Two days later they called me
30:28
and they say you got to get you an ER now.
30:31
I said OK, somehow they missed it.
30:34
My kidneys are operating like 13%.
30:37
So this I go to Leavenworth, the VA, and they start treating my
30:41
kidney issue. And in treating that, they
30:44
discover the blood cancer issue, which may have gone on for
30:48
months, years before being diagnosed.
30:51
So I think that kidney thing was kind of a God wing type stuff.
30:54
So I go to the Saint Joseph Clinic, Leavenworth for my
30:58
kidney stuff, Kansas City for my cancer stuff.
31:02
And I have not the tiniest complaint.
31:05
They've been fast, they've been efficient, they've been
31:09
commutative. I just, you know, I hear these
31:12
horror stories about people trying to deal with the VA and
31:17
I, I, I don't know if I'm just lucky, blessed, whatever.
31:21
And I think some of it is I, when I first was getting 2
31:26
treatments a week, driving down to Kansas City an hour a day, an
31:30
hour one way and getting these not horribly painful treatments,
31:34
but treatments. You know, I would try to talk to
31:37
the nurses and talk to them and just say, I remember distinctly
31:41
one young female nurse, she was sticking the needle in me and it
31:45
takes 5 minutes for the stuff to get injected.
31:48
And it's not outrageously painful, but you know what's
31:51
happening. And I said, thank you so much
31:53
for doing this. And she started crying.
31:56
I said, yo, what's up? But she said I'm just so used to
31:58
getting yelled at. And I think a lot of times, like
32:03
a lot of other things, people think this nurse is or this
32:07
travel agent or this rent a car person is the reason for the
32:11
problem. We scream at him.
32:13
I think you kind of get treated the way you treat people.
32:15
I know there's other horror stories with the VA, but I'm
32:18
just been grateful for the diagnosis cause I've been able
32:24
to meet a lot of VAS at, at these, a lot of veterans at
32:27
these places and create some friendships.
32:30
And, you know, I just assumed the cancer went away, but as
32:34
long as it's here, deal with it. Yeah, no, I think you're right.
32:40
Like a lot, like a lot of it is how you treat people around you
32:45
is the same experience you're going to get back for like to
32:49
yourself. So yeah, I, I, I think there are
32:54
a lot of times, like I would say like here in Eastern North
32:57
Carolina, I've had pretty decent experiences with the VA myself.
33:03
I haven't had any real issues. So yeah, again, I think it's all
33:07
about how you kind of approach it and and how you react you're
33:11
like to the situation or to the people around you that are
33:14
trying to help the best that they can because they're also
33:18
resource constraints put them in within the VA system as well.
33:22
So, but real, real, real quick, Jack.
33:24
But before we, before we continue, we need to take a
33:27
little short break. And then when we come back, I'd
33:30
like to talk to you a little bit about kind of the stuff that
33:32
you've taking over the past and, and kind of put it into your
33:36
ministry and how what you've done within your ministry to
33:39
help the use in, in, in in the next generation.
33:43
Will do. All right, we'll be back here in
33:46
a few minutes. Keep listening.
33:48
Thank you. Hey, everybody, and welcome back
38:26
to the Bunkhouse. If you're just now joining us,
38:28
my guest today, Jack Hager, Vietnam veteran.
38:32
So we before the break, he was talking about some of the stuff
38:35
that he did while he was in the army, some, some trouble he had
38:39
gotten into post his, his military service and kind of
38:43
rebuilding himself and into the ministry of life.
38:46
And so, Jack, if you could kind of walk us through some of the
38:50
things that you, that you've done within your ministry over
38:53
the, over the years. And, and some of the stuff that
38:55
you've taken from whether it be time in, in, in your military
38:59
service or some of the, the trials and tribulations that you
39:01
went through. And how you use that to kind of
39:03
help incorporate that into the to your teachings and kind of
39:07
getting people to to be on the right track.
39:11
When I think of, I'll start with the military, a teenager I where
39:17
I met him when he was like 11 years old.
39:19
He's now a Lieutenant Colonel. He's the wing chaplain at Dover,
39:24
OK. Oh, that's awesome.
39:26
He and I were. We spent a lot of time together
39:28
when he was a kid. When he was a teen, we worked
39:31
together in ministry for a while.
39:32
Anyway, he called me up a few years ago and he, he was at
39:35
Malstrom Air Force Base where all the missiles are, and he
39:38
said, Jack, would you like to come up here and speak to the
39:40
men? Sure.
39:42
Went up there for a week and a half and just spoke all over the
39:44
place, Did a couple of church services.
39:48
That was fantastic. Wonderful.
39:50
Couple years later, he says, I'm in Guam.
39:53
Would you like to come to Guam? Duh.
39:56
Yeah. Went to Guam for two weeks and a
40:00
couple years after that he called me.
40:02
He was at the Air Force basic training place, Lackland Air
40:06
Force Base, and he said, would you like to come down here?
40:09
I said, of course I'd like to come down there.
40:11
Came down there. And that was just after COVID
40:14
kind of. So I, I spoke at various places
40:17
to the APS and anyway, and then on Sunday they did church
40:23
service for the recruits that were going through training and.
40:28
Because of COVID, they brought them in one class at a time, if
40:32
you will. So I did 4 back-to-back services
40:36
with most of the men and women who are going through basic.
40:40
And it was I consider that to be one of the biggest honors of my
40:43
life to be able to share with them and of course, share some
40:48
of my military experiences. So they at least knew a little
40:51
bit. And this this guy Keith, you
40:54
know, I just he was stationed at Arlington for a while and I
40:58
didn't get to go there, but I keep hoping he gets assigned to
41:00
Hawaii next time or something. But anyway, I've had chances to
41:05
speak to military people and obviously the one-on-one stuff
41:12
primarily by ministry is youth. And I use the Vietnam thing is
41:18
attention getter and the prison thing.
41:22
And a lot of times I'll introduce myself even, you know,
41:26
30 years ago. I'm Jack.
41:28
I'm a Vietnam veteran and ex-con.
41:31
And usually that brings about you don't look like 1.
41:34
And I'll say OK. And then I get to explain to him
41:36
why I am 1. I think I was just talking to a
41:42
friend. I talked to my wife the other
41:44
day that people mean it as a criticism, I think, but I take
41:48
it as a compliment. One of the things I've heard for
41:52
years, not often, but often enough to wonder, is people
41:57
saying, Jack, you're too transparent.
42:01
And I say, what? What are you talking about?
42:03
You don't have to go into sordid details.
42:05
I don't want to make the drug life look good.
42:07
I don't want to make combat look good.
42:09
I don't want to make prison look good.
42:12
But how can I be too transparent?
42:14
I've got four children. One of my, my daughter is
42:18
currently practicing a gay lifestyle.
42:21
And I try to be careful with that.
42:23
How I phrase that she's currently practicing a gay
42:25
lifestyle and I share that not because I'm proud of it, not
42:30
because I'm ashamed of it, but because it's reality.
42:34
And I don't think you'd be amazed, but a lot of people are
42:37
amazed how many people come up to me after I share that and say
42:42
thank you so much. We thought we were the only
42:44
ones. And you know, I think it kind of
42:47
applies to guys that are struck and girls that are struggling
42:50
with mental things. They think they're the only
42:52
ones. They think.
42:53
And if we could just be more honest, not I'm not bragging
42:57
that I have mental stuff. I'm not bragging that I'm an
43:01
alcoholic. I'm not bragging that that I
43:03
want to be real in the hopes that maybe somebody can see
43:07
maybe I can talk to this guy maybe.
43:09
Or if God can help him, maybe he can help me.
43:14
So with teenagers, you know, I love teenagers 'cause if I share
43:19
something from the pulpit, if you will, afterwards, they'll
43:22
say that really stumped Jack. And an adult will come up and
43:26
say, oh, that was such a wonderful sermon, Reverend
43:28
Hager, and go home and have roast Jack for lunch.
43:31
You know, I love kids 'cause they're honest, not saying that
43:34
all adults aren't. I love kids because they're open
43:39
and for whatever reason, even at my advanced age, I can still
43:44
relate to them. And I think a lot of it is
43:46
because I treat them seriously. I look them in the eye and I
43:50
listen to them, and obviously my main priority is to get them
43:54
into a relationship with Jesus Christ.
43:56
But maybe they already are. Maybe they're resisting Him.
43:59
I want them to know that whether they accept my faith or not, I
44:03
still love them. I still care about them, and let
44:06
me hop on the hobby horse. I do not blame non Christians
44:12
for thinking that Christians are homophobic for instance.
44:17
That's the way we come across way way way too much.
44:20
And I mean there are some just idiots that make it their hobby
44:24
horse, but there are some well meaning people.
44:26
I mean I got to be true. I believe the Bible teaches that
44:30
homosexual activity is sinful, as is gluttony, as is lying, as
44:36
is gossip. And I don't know why I can't say
44:43
that about homosexuality. I don't agree with your
44:46
lifestyle, but that does not mean I hate you.
44:50
My daughter and my wife and I talk frequently and she knows
44:56
where we stand. We're not going to hit her over
44:57
the head with a 10 foot Bible. She knows where we stand,
45:01
obviously. Well, maybe not obviously, but
45:03
we are hoping and praying that she comes to faith in Christ and
45:09
leaves that lifestyle. But she's our daughter.
45:12
And even if she wasn't our daughter, she's a human being
45:14
created in the image of God. And my job is to love her.
45:18
And part of that love is to be honest and to say, no, yeah,
45:21
that is sin. The same I would do to a gossip.
45:26
I can't find a verse that says God hates gossips, the God hates
45:30
homosexuals, but I can't find a proverb that says he hates those
45:35
who sow discord among the brethren.
45:37
Otherwise, gossip. So again, I don't, I, I'm trying
45:40
to do everything I can to, when I addressed that particular
45:43
subject to say, yes, it is sin and it's just like any other
45:49
sin. Except for the fact that First
45:51
Corinthians 6 seems to indicate that all sexual sin carries a
45:55
different flavor to it because it's sin against the body.
45:59
But so is gluttony, so is lying, so is lust, etcetera and so
46:04
forth, 'cause I don't want a homosexual to think that he or
46:09
she is beyond redemption. And most of all, I don't want
46:12
them to think that God hates them or that I hate them.
46:17
And so that that kind of transparency, that kind of
46:22
speaking, shocks kids sometimes and offends adults sometimes.
46:28
And he can probably tell by now that I am not really too.
46:33
I really don't give a RIP if I offend you if I'm speaking the
46:35
truth in love. Yeah, I, I think you bring up a
46:39
a good point there, especially when it comes to like talk, talk
46:42
telling the truth and especially to this, this day and age is
46:46
youth. I think that's the biggest part
46:49
is, is being extremely honest and transparent with them.
46:52
I think gets through to them more than trying to sugarcoat
46:55
things or to kind of gloss over certain areas, right.
47:00
And, and that's one thing that I found too, with talking to other
47:04
veterans or, or getting veterans comfortable with or, or letting
47:08
them know that it's OK to talk about whatever is going on in
47:11
their lives. Like I have to be honest, I have
47:14
to open up and tell things about myself that maybe I, I probably
47:19
wouldn't have 10 years ago, right?
47:21
But I know I need to do, you know, but, but I know I need to
47:25
because like you, like you said, me sharing some of my stories,
47:29
regardless of how bad they may seem, it could help somebody
47:35
else come to the same light and know that, hey, it is OK to talk
47:38
about it. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's
47:40
nothing to be ashamed of. There, there is a way forward
47:44
past those things, you know, and anything like you said, I think
47:47
that honesty is like the first step of being able to get
47:51
somebody to start opening up and understand what you are telling
47:54
them. I totally agree.
47:56
It's just, and it's rare, you know, it sounds like I'm patting
48:03
myself on the head, mate, you know, but it's so rare for
48:06
somebody to treat not just teenagers, but somebody else
48:11
throwing away. Not throwing away, but
48:13
disregarding my faith, disregarding everything else.
48:16
People are people and everybody's carrying something.
48:19
Everybody's got something going on and I don't want to add to
48:23
their misery. I don't want to add to their
48:25
guilt or shame or whatever. At the same time, I don't want
48:28
to facilitate or encourage or make it easy for them to
48:35
continue in something that is self-destructive or, going back
48:40
to my biblical roots, sinful. And I just think spending time
48:50
being alert for a while. My regimental commander in
48:54
Vietnam was Colonel George S Patton, the 4th.
48:57
You may have heard of his father.
48:59
And he had a mantra. Do you ever see Apocalypse Now?
49:03
I have. It's been a while, but yeah, I
49:05
have seen that. Whoever wrote that movie knew
49:08
Colonel Patton cause Robert Duvall is Colonel Patton.
49:12
But anyway, his mantra was stay alert, stay alive, stay alert,
49:16
stay alive. And I'm sure it wasn't exclusive
49:19
to him. It's a great way to survive
49:21
combat. It's also a great way to survive
49:23
life. You know, I never thought 15
49:27
years ago that part of my ministry to young people would
49:31
be teaching them situational awareness.
49:34
Yeah, but we live in that kind of a world.
49:36
I'm a convicted felon. I can't carry a weapon.
49:39
It's probably only been the last, I don't know, 5 or 6 years
49:43
that I really wished I could carry a weapon because of the
49:46
world in which we live. And in that kind of a world, we
49:51
need to, we need to love each other.
49:55
We need to you know, The Beatles weren't the greatest theologians
49:58
the ever the world had ever seen.
50:00
I was with a group of teenagers the other day and I said The
50:02
Beatles and I could see their blank look and I said, oh, come
50:05
on, John, Paul, George and Ringo still blank.
50:09
I said, you poor socially deprived kids.
50:11
But you know, The Beatles got it right once.
50:14
All you need is love. And you know, everybody I bump
50:17
into is created in God's image, whatever they are, that whether
50:23
they're a hooker or a sex offender I meet in prison or or
50:29
the local drunk, if there's a way I can help them, it's my
50:36
duty and privilege to help them. And we are so self concerned and
50:41
so self-centered. And that's not exclusive to non
50:44
Christians, it's Christians too. We get so wrapped up in
50:47
ourselves and our little Mickey Mouse problems, or we shelter.
50:52
We just stay in our little cubbyhole.
50:55
We have our secret meeting of the Saints and we're the church,
50:57
aren't we? We're going to wait for these
50:59
people to come to us. Shut up.
51:01
Get off your butt and get out there and go to them.
51:04
But I might get stained. I might get shut.
51:07
Yeah, I just. Yeah.
51:10
One of the cool things about having cancer is if I really
51:13
offend somebody, I can say, hey, give me a break.
51:15
I'm on meds. Leave me alone, you know?
51:17
But you know, I I don't blame people for turning away from
51:28
Christianity because of the way it's broadcast on TVI can make
51:35
you healthy and wealthy. Give me 10 grand and I'll give
51:37
you 100 grand and all that kind of junk because of the way too
51:41
many people who identify as Christians treat non Christians.
51:45
So I'm doing everything I can with the help of God to help
51:50
young people see that and to help young people see the danger
51:56
of drugs and alcohol, etcetera. Because as you well know, it's a
52:01
whole lot easier to do preventive maintenance than when
52:07
they're 20 years old and strung out or whether they're
52:09
incarcerated or whether whatever, if we can get them
52:13
younger. Yeah, we shouldn't be talking
52:17
about that with young people. Shut up.
52:19
Yes, we should you know. Oh absolutely.
52:22
Like I, I, I, my, my kids, I have 3 kids myself, my youngest,
52:27
she'll be thirteen this year, my oldest, she'll be 18 this year
52:32
and my son, he'll be 15 this year.
52:35
And so especially in this stage of age with, with technology and
52:39
social media and stuff, and coming from an IT Batgirl
52:43
myself, like I'm always, always trying to be honest and, and
52:48
making sure that they understand the dangers of being online and
52:51
interacting with folks online, especially if they don't know
52:54
them personally, like how many issues there are around stuff
52:57
like that. So again, it's, it's about being
52:59
honest about the dangers that are out there and, and, and
53:03
talking to your kids about those things.
53:04
So I think that's extremely important too, right?
53:06
Because yeah, they're going to make mistakes.
53:08
They're going to, they're not going to always make the right
53:11
choices, but neither did we. But at the same time, there's a
53:15
lot more dangers out there today than there was when when I was a
53:18
kid in the 90s or when you was a kid in in.
53:21
In the 20s. And 50s right like.
53:24
My illustration of that is I had to get a couple of my buddies
53:27
and go in the store and have them distract the clerk so I can
53:30
swipe the Playboy as even unintentionally picking up a
53:37
phone or going online all of a sudden and you can't Unsee it.
53:42
I mean, that's a whole other subject.
53:44
But porn is the, I think, the most disastrous drug addiction
53:50
that we have. And it's everywhere.
53:53
And we all, whether it's porn or drugs or whatever, we all have
53:58
this really wacky disease. It's not going to happen to me.
54:02
It's not going to happen to me. Yeah, I will.
54:05
And the Lord opened the door for me to do school assemblies for
54:10
about 6 or 7 years. And it's kind of a sad
54:13
commentary that Reverend Hager can't get into a school, but
54:17
ex-con Hager can. And I'd go in and basically tell
54:21
my story and just really stress personal responsibility.
54:24
And if I had a chance to share my faith, I would do that.
54:26
But I just think personal response.
54:29
It's not my fault there's an obscenity.
54:31
It's yeah, yeah. Things contribute to it.
54:35
Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq. Combat contributes to a lot of
54:40
junk. Being molested as a kid does,
54:44
alcoholic parents, etcetera and so forth.
54:46
That all contributes. But you're not simply a product
54:50
of your environment. And with or without faith, you
54:54
can turn it around, but you got to make that choice.
54:57
I'm going to do whatever it takes to get out of this and
55:02
then be man enough to ask for help and suck that pride thing
55:07
down and just say I need help. And how do you do that?
55:11
You contact me, you contact John, you contact somebody.
55:15
And they can be a gateway to a way that will revolutionize and
55:22
quite possibly save your life. Yeah.
55:26
No, I, I, I think you break up a great point there.
55:28
Like the self accountability piece.
55:29
It is, it's one thing that I've learned in, in my healing
55:33
process and like my healing journey from some of the things
55:36
that I've, I've struggled with is it being able to accept those
55:41
and take ownership of those things, right?
55:44
Whether it be alcohol use, infidelity, like those types of
55:49
things is own it, take responsibility for it.
55:52
And then being able to own it and then move past that, make
55:57
yourself better, right? And that's part of a healing
56:00
process. Like just like you just said
56:01
too, it's, it's part of the growth and, and and get into a
56:06
better place. One of my great regrets in life
56:10
is that I never got to see the Eagles in concert.
56:13
OK, but they had a song. I think it was the flip side of
56:17
Hotel California called Get Over It.
56:22
Have you ever heard it? I don't think I've heard that
56:25
one, but I'm going to look that one up now.
56:26
You got to YouTube it. It's if I had my way, it would
56:31
be played every morning from every speaker in America.
56:34
It's it's, it's your mom is too skinny and your daddy's too fat.
56:38
Get over it. Get over it.
56:41
I'd like to find your inner child and kick his little get
56:44
over it. It's it's a great tune anyway
56:48
and the lyrics are just man up, quit crying.
56:52
Don't be, you know, we're such a victim mentality, a victim of
56:55
this, a victim to the a victim of this, a victim of that.
56:58
Your mom's too skinny and your daddy's too fat.
57:00
It's a great song and I share it every time I can just because
57:05
it's true, you know, you got to get over it.
57:08
You probably are going to need some help to do that.
57:11
But don't identify. I'm a I'm a alcoholic.
57:14
I'm a adult child of Alcoholics. I'm a victim of sex abuse.
57:19
And I wish I could fix all that with a wink of my eyes.
57:22
I can't. But that's not your identity.
57:25
That is not your your reality. And I know there are pressures
57:30
and people and forces that want to keep you in that little box.
57:33
Get out of it. Break out of it.
57:35
Oh, I can't. Yeah, you can start the, you
57:40
know, the Chinese or whatever. The longest journey starts with
57:43
a single step. Take that step, ask for help,
57:47
pray for help, do something. But most of us need Jesus with
57:53
skin on. And that's another person
57:55
that'll walk alongside you and won't give up on you and will
57:59
kick your butt when you need a kicked and will give you a hug
58:02
when you need a hug. Yeah.
58:05
And I could, I could promise anybody and everybody that's
58:07
listening right now, I guarantee you if you, if you just paid
58:11
attention and looked around, there's somebody in your circle
58:14
or near you or close to you that would be that person for you.
58:19
And if, let's say, if for some reason you don't have somebody
58:22
like that, please reach out. I'll get you in contact with
58:27
people, right? If I can, if I can help myself
58:29
personally, I will. But I could definitely get you
58:31
in contact with somebody as well that you need any kind of
58:35
assistance. But that's what we're here for.
58:37
You know, folks like myself, like Jack, other veterans that
58:40
I've talked to you like that's what we're here for, is to help
58:42
out with those types of things. Piggy banking on that.
58:45
My e-mail is simply Jack dot Hager at Gmail and it's what I
58:50
do. You're not a if you want to yell
58:52
at me, that's fine, we can get in a discussion there.
58:55
But if you have a question, anything else, and you feel
58:59
maybe the anonymity of e-mail will be helpful, shoot me an
59:02
e-mail. It's what I do, it's my job,
59:05
it's my ministry. The cancer diagnosis has changed
59:09
a little, some aspects of my ministry, but I'm still full
59:13
time. Why?
59:13
Retire from something you love and you won't be a nuisance.
59:16
You won't be a pest. I'd love to quote UN quote, talk
59:19
to you through e-mail for starters if you'd like to.
59:24
Check we are coming up at the top of the hour and so we are a
59:28
little bit out of time now to today.
59:30
Check. I would definitely like to have
59:32
you back on again and I definitely want to have you on
59:35
my pre recorded releases that I do monthly and get to be able to
59:39
tell your entire story if you're if you're up for that.
59:41
I would love to do it if I can. Real quick, after 40 years of
59:45
nagging, I mean counseling, I finally wrote a book.
59:48
It's titled Captured by Grace. It's available at Amazon,
59:52
etcetera. It might give you more of a
59:56
overview of my background. Awesome, I'll make sure and add
1:00:00
that. I'll post that to you my link
1:00:01
tree into my website so folks can know where to get it at.
1:00:05
Great. I've really, really enjoyed the
1:00:07
time. I would love to do it again and
1:00:10
let's stay connected. Yes, Sir, absolutely.
1:00:13
Will Jack, thank you again. And everybody out there
1:00:15
listening again, you're not alone.
1:00:17
I promise you you're not. There's going to be people that
1:00:19
are around you that love you and want to help you and see you be
1:00:21
successful and as always, be delighting Someone's dark.
1:00:25
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