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Why Celebrity Endorsements Don’t Fix Bad Storytelling · Entrepreneur Odyssey

• Tejneet Selhi: Hello everybody, welcome back to the Entrepreneur Odyssey. I'm your host, Tejanit Selly, and this is the show where we sit down with founders who've actually done the hard yards so you don't have to learn from every single mistake and lessen the painful way. Before we dive into today's episode, a quick shout out to our sponsor, AI Efficacy, who help customers gain efficiencies and grow their businesses through smart and personalized workflows. Head to aiphen advocacy.com and book a call. So on to today's guest. Today's guest is one of the most interesting founder stories that I've I've heard, actually. So she started out in Hollywood working at Fox Film Studios and Warner Brothers, where she watched firsthand what happens when powerful stories are told well. lit a fire that eventually led her far away from the entertainment industry through freelance copywriting hustles, a pivot during COVID, and a bold move from Melbourne to New York to be closer to the US market that had somehow already found her. She's the founder of the founder and creative director at Catalyst Brand Strategy, which is an award-winning boutique. PR and Communications Agency. Catherine, it's a real pleasure pleasure to have you on the show today. Welcome. Katherine Tuominen: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to have this conversation. Tejneet Selhi: Excellent. Me too. Well let's dive in then. I really want to hear more about your your Hollywood background. so you worked at Fox Film Studios and one of others. and most people don't make that leap from running their in well, running their own marketing agency. What did those years in entertainment actually teach you about storytelling? And was there a moment where you thought where you knew you had to go and do your own thing? Katherine Tuominen: Yes, absolutely. The biggest thing it taught me is that storytelling obviously comes down to connecting with that person, the reader, the viewer. Whatever format that may be. And what can often happen is people think that by slapping a celebrity on it or an influencer or some kind of famous persona, it can perform better. But the reality is if that messaging doesn't resonate with the person, it doesn't matter who you what the face of the brand may be, people will suggest this sort of disconnect or misalignment. And that's really where I did a lot of deeper work in terms of what. what truly creates a captivating story. Tejneet Selhi: Amazing. And so the entertainment, your the entertainment side of things helped you when it came to your agency as well by the sounds of it. Katherine Tuominen: Yes, so it really made me realize that at the end of the day, storytelling can come in all kinds of formats. It doesn't just have to be film, it doesn't have to be this one, you know, social media platform. There's so many different ways we can tell a story. You know, I see in your background you have a beautiful illustration, and that's another form. and then of course there's the everyday conversations we have with colleagues and likewise. And so it really broadened my perception of, you know, what does it mean to tell impactful stories and what are the different ways we can truly make this a possibility. Yeah. Tejneet Selhi: Nice. Love it. And so you went through a full pivot, right, with culture cure, freelance copywriting, and then eventually catalyst. That's a lot of shape shifting, if you don't mind me saying, for one founder. What's the honest version of that journey? what worked and what didn't work and what's finally what have you finally cracked, would you say? Katherine Tuominen: my gosh, I love that question. Yes, funnily enough, I had a recruiter reach out to me and they said they've never seen a resume quite like mine. and I think Tejneet Selhi: But Katherine Tuominen: you know, it it goes to show that a lot of the time we're almost encouraged to box ourselves into one specific type of career path or one kind of job title. But I actually believe in skill stacking where you can get a myriad of different skills and and use them as transferable skills to in different contexts. And that doesn't mean that one is more valuable than the other, but it's really just a matter of using. them as needed. And so in my case, it was definitely a journey. I it wasn't funnily enough, it's all led back to the same place where I started, which is storytelling. But now I very much do it in a way that feels aligned with my values and I'm very fortunate to connect with founders and impact-driven people who really want to make a difference in this world. So in terms of the the journey, I mean I left the entertainment industry after it took quite a hit on my well-being. And that led me down a journey of, you know, what truly is a healthy workplace culture? How can I nurture and nourish my well-being in a better way? And then of course I did a lot of work around psychology, you know, reading a lot of self-development books, personal development, all of that. And it really deepened my curiosity on wellness, which is now, you know, a huge industry as it is, but back then it was sort of more in the fringe. Like if you said you were interested in in wellness, people were like, that's a bit woo, whereas now it's you know, wellness is like encompasses so many different things. And so yeah, I was really fortunate to kind of be in on it early from that perspective and learn it both from the scientific side and from more alternative practices and then come come to understand what that meant for me. And now these days in terms of what we do, we really support holistic wellness in the sense that we believe in the whole person care. So yes there's a place for evidence based scientific supported frameworks and there's also a space for identifying that everybody is unique and there may maybe a different approach to supporting that person. And we very much apply this ethos to how we support clients today from a marketing lens as well. So in terms of, you know, you mentioned other things like copywriting and freelancing. And I think that, you know, all of that was different forms of storytelling. Some of it was written, some of it was, you know, social media, editing, things like that. And it taught me to refine my skill and it also taught me that the importance of understanding the core narrative of that founder so we could accurately embody them. throughout the different formats and channels that they wanted to be expressed in. Tejneet Selhi: Nice. I love that. I love that. and I also really love the skill stacking that you mentioned because I think that's so important, especially in in the world we're living in now, right? We've got the opportunity to learn so many different things. Why should we just stay boxed in, right? That that's generations gone by, I think, you know, now we've got the opportunity to learn more and why not? so let's talk about copywriting, because most copywriters sort of stay in copywriting, but you maxed out and then made a very deliberate move towards strategy. What made you realise that execution without strategy hits a ceiling and what did that shift look like in practice? Katherine Tuominen: Yeah, so I got frustrated because for anyone who has been a copywriter, you give your copywriting off. And then you have to kind of trust that it goes in the right place, same as script writers, same as any kind of writer. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Katherine Tuominen: and the frustrating part was that if you give your copywriting to a website designer and they format the copy terribly or they don't know how to put the copy in the right place so that it's you know really captivates people and is and is visually pleasing, that it almost does a disservice to the copy. And so I started to think about well, you know, if we were to measure the impact of our copywriting, what would that actually look like? and of course there's a bunch of kind of Marketing terms to do this, but you know, simple ways could be click-throughs, conversions, things like that. And so I got very curious on the data to kind of identify the quality of that copywriting and how to continuously improve. And that essentially made me rethink what it meant to have a working ecosystem for these impact-driven founders that extended beyond just one particular asset and instead allowed the assets to compound and meaningfully add value in a way that they could track and make sense of. And I think a lot of impact-driven Founders don't necessarily want to get down as the nitty-gritty of some of the analytics or marketing. And so there's also a lesson in terms of providing them with clean, simple insights that they can then make an informed decision from without necessarily bogging them down in maybe some of the details that isn't necessary for them at that level. Tejneet Selhi: Nice. Love it. Love it. so you made a very specific call to only work with founders with what's right, with one founder per vertical. That's a fascinating constraint to build in your agency. Most agency would never kind of cap themselves that way. Can you walk me through that decision and why does integrity matter more than growth here? Katherine Tuominen: I appreciate that question. Yes. So it seemed like such an obvious decision for me, to be honest, because I couldn't understand how other PR agencies could justify representing so many different founders from that same v vertical when ultimately, you know, in the PR world there's there's usually Kind of a handful of news stories or hooks that you can angle on. And you often get opportunities from journalists who say, Hey, I need a quick quote here, or we have this opportunity or award here. And if you're nominating all, say, 30 of your clients to the same award, that's almost getting them to compete against each other to some degree. And yes, you can, you know, subcategorize them and do different topics or spins, but at the end of the day, it's narrowing an already competitive t pool into an even more competitive subset that doesn't necessarily Work in that founder's best interest. So right from the get-go, I I knew that that's not the game I wanted to be playing. And so by only working with one founder per vertical, and to be clear, the way we identify the way we justify or identify this is per the area that they're targeting. So it might be that, you know, you're kind of like a say like a breathwork coach, but you're only in New York and not in LA. So then we could work with one in New York and one in LA because there's no competition in the sense that they're not doing their focus on locally and not nationwide. So we we have to be honest about you know where those lines are drawn. And it's not as clear cut as kind of like a standardized contract. It's often a transparent conversation with that founder to say, well, where exactly are you now? Where do you want to be heading? So we can understand those constraints and be fair with them and then make an informed decision as to who else we could work with in if and in that same category. So that's typically how we define it. But to keep lines very clear, often we'll just say, we've already got one representative in this. Space. At this point, we cannot represent anyone else but come back in you know X amount of time and happy to rediscuss, or we're happy to refer you to someone else in our network or provide some free resources. So we always love to support people, even if we're not working with them directly, but it's definitely something I'm really proud to have made the decision of doing early on because it means we can work so deeply with the founders we care about, you know, right down to reading their books, embodying their messaging, looking at you know archives of history. We really can provide. them with so much more care and and a deeper level of support. Tejneet Selhi: I love that. I I really, really love that because for you, integrity matters far more than than chasing the next dollar or or or money and and and that's that's so rare these days world. So so well done for that. I really mean it. Katherine Tuominen: Thank you. Tejneet Selhi: and so I hope you don't mind this next question, because during our our our pre-call you mentioned that you did have a bit of a personal crisis in terms of your first year. which kind of expose some gaps in in terms of your contracts and clients left because it wasn't really anything protecting that period. and that's a hard lesson. I bring it up because I think other founders may have gone through something similar or may want to avoid going through something similar. what did you change and what would you tell other founders who are building without those safeguards? Katherine Tuominen: Absolutely. I've spoken about this openly a lot actually, but every time I have the conversation, there's always a new kind of insight or aha moment that I'm really grateful to reflect back on. So thank you for bringing this up. So, in short, yes, exactly, we were in our first year of business, and many people say the first year is the toughest for so many different reasons. You know, there's low on resources, you're most of the time you're bootstrapping, or you're learning the lessons for the first time. But if there's any way that I can support someone to lessen the hardships, then I'm always all for that. So, one of the top advice. I give well pieces of advice I give to someone who's in this position is to make sure that your contract truly is ironclad. Don't just pick a random template online and hope it's good to go. One of the practices that we got in the in the habit of doing was at the end of each contract with a client, we would take a moment to review our contract and figure out, you know, what could we have done better to protect our scope, to protect our team, to ensure that this truly is a fair agreement. and then re refer it back to our attorney so they can make those adjustments. So the contract becomes much more of a lived ongoing piece of of work instead of something you sort of set and forget until it becomes an issue and then you need to go back and and review it. So that's one of the top pieces of of advice I can give and part of that is baking in time away. So that could be you know leave time, that could be for force measures so when something unexpected happens that means you can't fulfill your role. You know, COVID was a great example. there there's so many things that could occur, and if you don't have the contingencies and clauses in place to protect yourself, then you're left often stranded and not knowing how to even batch for yourself. So, to give you an example, I had gone through a very serious personal breakup as well as a location move, all in the same span of a couple of weeks, and I was just not able to perform my job in the way that I had typically done, which was a hundred percent, a hundred percent of the time. And so I had to, what I should have done was basically said, in any workplace, if something like this happens, you know, if you've lost someone, if you if you're grieving, you're given two, three weeks off to kind of recover. But I never baked that into my contract. I'd never allowed myself that. So all of a sudden, these clients who were so dependent on me were like, What are you doing? Where is this? Where is that? And there wasn't really this full, I guess, element of protection there. Some were were kind and compassionate about it, but it still left, it still left things sort of open. Ended. And so I would say the best thing you can do is bake into your contract that you are allowed to take time off. You are allowed to have sick days. You're allowed to, you know, if something happens in your life that's truly unexpected, you can take that time and maybe extend the project or find an amicable resolution instead of basically not knowing what to do, not having the mental capacity to even address how to approach this, and then letting things sort of fall apart to some degree. So that was the biggest lesson I learned, and it sounds so obvious. But I think many people who might be transitioning from a corporate world where those contracts are baked in or in place to Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Katherine Tuominen: suddenly doing it by yourself, you don't realize when those gaps are there until they're exposed. And at that point, it leaves you vulnerable. Tejneet Selhi: That is such a great piece of advice because you say it sounds obvious and and yes it is, but I think really as founders, I don't know if we allow ourselves that that grace, right? Because the butt stops with us, right? Ultimately. Katherine Tuominen: Yeah. Tejneet Selhi: So but but so how do you manage that? Like I'm glad your clients were understanding because I think that would be the fear for many people is kind of how do you service your clients if you're away for two weeks. Katherine Tuominen: It was early stages. So we did have a small team, but most of the team weren't necessarily at a point of leadership. It was more like delegation and outsourcing certain tasks. So I was still very much needed for every point of that decision making, which yeah, the I guess if someone is in that situation or if they're struggling to know how to address this, the biggest thing is to be honest with yourself and those who are in that situation and just have that conversation. I think it can be very tempting to shy away or try and ignore it or come up With, you know, we don't necessarily want to admit where we're at at that point. So maybe come up with a reason or a rationale, but you need to kind of take a moment for yourself to really assess where am I at? What am I truly capable of at this point? And then have that conversation with the client in terms of what a potential solution could be in the interim. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. you've said that even celebrities can't sell goods good sorry, good products without a great story. What does a great brand story actually look like in the health and well being space and where do most founders get it wrong, would you say? Katherine Tuominen: Ooh, I think great storytelling is as old as time, as cliche as that sounds. You know, the there is the three arc structure for a reason, and there is certain storytelling mechanisms that we have grown accustomed to and and identify with, but the biggest thing is the emotional piece, and I think that's where a lot of founders can lead things astray. So they might get too caught up in the business or the branding side where it feels either too corporate or too polished or just it doesn't have that emotional resonance anymore and it sort of starts to lose the original, I guess, why of why that founder started in the first place. So that's something we see quite often, whether it's because they've they've chased a certain trend, you know, doing the latest TikTok dance or whatever and then diluting their messaging or it's because they've just it's Been to so many different hands, they've outsourced so many different outlets that it's kind of lost that core piece. so that's one piece of advice. Just take a moment to go back to the original why of that founder. normally, a lot of the time, there is this turning point, there's this there's a hard point in their life where they go, enough's enough, or why hasn't this existed before? This is you know unbelievable. I need to put this out in the world, and so you need to kind of return back to that incredible message that it's sparked this. idea and led you to begin this in the first place and then honestly assess you know whether that's being translated across the different channels and and storytelling mechanisms that you've put into place. So I would say that's the biggest sort of gap that we see often. And then second to that is the credibility piece. So now with with you know wellbeing is being what it is today with so many different options, whether it be mental health, physical health, you know financial health, there's so many different elements to wellbeing. I would say it's so important to make sure that you have the credibility To back what you're saying, whether that be in client case studies or whether that be in evidence-based research that you've put together or your own success story, it's really important to compile these social proof elements in a way that is honoring the original experience of that person or proof, while also making it clear that this truly does is grounded in evidence and meaningful change. Tejneet Selhi: after working with a hundred plus brands or brand campaigns, in twenty twenty six with AI content everywhere and audiences getting more sceptical, how do you engineer genuine word of mouth rather than manufactured noise? Katherine Tuominen: that's such a great question. Yes. So I still believe that word of mouth marketing is the number one marketing channel and there's plenty of stats to back this because obviously people trust other people. And so when it comes to I guess making word of mouth opportunities or creating that word of mouth engagement, Tejneet Selhi: Mm. Katherine Tuominen: the biggest thing that we look for is when clients or potential followers or people within your community start reflecting your message back to you. So this is such a great mo moment of like, aha, it this message is resonating. So to give you an example, it could be that maybe you have a specific term or a word that you use to describe your client base, like a fan base, and you have this like a a friendly sort of fan word that you use. Or it could be that you have a specific word or your UVP that no other brand is doing and you're seeing that you know people comment saying like I can't wait to get this or you know this key word taught me X. And so it's really seeing your words and your story reflected back Of their own accord. You know, you're not paying them, you're not prompting them, you're just seeing this natural kind of flow from someone being so impressed and transformed by the products and services that you're providing that they're then responding and in kind and sharing a glimpse of their story or their lessons learned. Tejneet Selhi: having those organic moments with your audience that I think are gonna hopefully resonate more than the AI generated you know, side of things, but we'll have to see how it all unfolds. Katherine Tuominen: That's fair, yes. And I think you know, there's especially for founders, a lot of people wonder how much of myself do I need to be showing up for? You know, should I make a division between being a founder or being the brand? Where does that line lie? And so I think, you know, the the the biggest thing is a lot of founders have a tendency to almost share at a point while they're still going through that experience. And this can actually damage the brand in the long long run. But at the same time not sharing anything about that experience also can damage the brand because you know, it's sort of shows that you're disconnected or not necessarily involved with some of the changes that are happening. So what we usually say is Process it internally and then once you've had a minute to kind of reflect on lessons learned, resolve the spot fire or whatever it may be, and then know what direction you want to take that conversation, then post about it, then share about it. Don't necessarily do it from a place of being raw before you've even had a chance to internally think, hang on a minute, how do I even feel about this? So I think that's the other tendency, especially these days with how reactive social media and these online spaces are. It's so important. important to just take that moment and make sure that when you are ready to share, it's coming from a place of insight and the the wound, so to speak, is is healed and then you're ready to provide those insights and take that next step. Tejneet Selhi: Nice. I like it. you mentioned that you're almost somewhat on the addict level of the AI spectrum. but you also said you're building agentic tools in the HIPAA heavy environment where one wrong move has real consequences. What does responsible AI adoption look like for an agency in your position? Katherine Tuominen: Right, so it can be very tempting to jump on to every new tool that hops on. You know, there's Whisperflow, there's like what was, you know, Clobot, there's so many different different things like Manaus, Tejneet Selhi: It's okay. Katherine Tuominen: etc. And so I think instead of treating these tools like a gamified, almost like play, it's important to kind of think about well which tool is actually going to be most useful for the end objective that I'm trying to work towards and then iterate slowly and consistently instead of just giving it all access to everything and blindly kind of going in just hoping for the best. And so I guess in terms of the adoption piece and making sure it still remains beneficial right now our all of our systems are are internal so we're we're using it for our own purposes we're not necessarily like going off and selling it and and heading into that space and so we're very much using what we've built out as an internal beta test first and then rolling it out incrementally according to when we feel that it is right and also making sure we have the right teams on board to make sure that it is compliant, heavy and it it aligns with the the general best practice And where AI is heading. So it's not, when I say we're using it frequently, we are in the sense that there's a lot happening behind the scenes, but we're not rushing to roll that out or even use it from a client-facing perspective until we know 100% it's trusted, it works, it follows all the governance, and we're ready to share this on a more public capacity. Tejneet Selhi: let's talk about your relocation. You relocated, as you mentioned earlier, from Melbourne to New York to be closer to your client base that had already found you. that's a huge personal and professional leap. What did that move teach you about following the business rather than waiting for the business to come to you? Katherine Tuominen: Oof. The biggest, so for some context, I think people might be curious about this. So in Australia, there's almost this saying that like breaking into the US is harder than Australia. And I found that to be completely false in my case. I don't necessarily know why specifically. I think perhaps my messaging was a bit more direct and and I I saw a gap in the market quite early during COVID and I just took it and and acted quickly. but I think you know, sometimes when we're thinking about, I guess, different cultural nuances. Or the place that we're based, it's so important to remember that the world is expansive. There are so many other opportunities. And if you're not quite finding that this hits the mark where you are, it might be worth considering, well, maybe this would make more sense elsewhere. So, you know, looking at your go-to-market strategy and figuring out maybe this will resonate here because of X reason and not being afraid of maybe what other local people are saying who might not understand the full picture and having the kind of self-assurance to take that leap. And take that initiative. I mean, worst case scenario, I could have just flown back, right? I could have just said, try it here for a month. You know, that your home is always gonna be your home. You can always return. But I think there's no harm in really seeing how far you can take yourself and create the change that you're aspiring towards. So I'm really glad I took that leap. And I think for anyone who's on the fence or or thinking about it, that there, you know, there's no better time than than now. who knows? We just Just it feels like just yesterday where we had COVID and also forever ago. And I think it's just Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Yeah. Katherine Tuominen: a lesson in the sense that being able to travel and relocate for roles is such a privilege. And so if you're in that capacity, why not take it and see where it takes you? Tejneet Selhi: Why not? Why not? You you made it a success, so well done. Katherine Tuominen: Thank you. Tejneet Selhi: So you won the Entrepreneurial Excellence Award at the founders founders two point in Las Vegas. Congratulations. Katherine Tuominen: Thank you. Tejneet Selhi: you said the recognition really belongs to the founders you work with. What does ethical integrity led marketing actually mean in practice? And why does it matter more to you than just getting results? Katherine Tuominen: In practice it means knowing the difference between what is Ethical and what isn't. And again, this sounds so obvious, but unfortunately in today's world it's actually not at all. To give you Tejneet Selhi: No. Katherine Tuominen: some kind of more current use cases, you know, you can be gathering data on your customers without their full permission. You could be looking at their, you know, IP addresses, you could be scraping their social media accounts to figure out their buyer behavior, their how they consume things, you know, what they like, and you can be using all this to inform your marketing strategy. And to some degree, yes, it's open information. They have ticked a box on. Instagram somewhere saying that they are open to sharing this, and so you as a founder kind of need to be honest with yourself about how far am I willing to kind of push the line of what is ethical and what isn't, and where is that clear line in the sand? And for every person, it'll be slightly different, but the the biggest misconception I see is someone trying to be ethical without even touching what might not be, so it's kind of like, we're in this space, and then before you know it, that space can creep into a line that is very, very blurry, and so I think. It's important to be consistently auditing your work, your teams, your the assets that you've you've built, and ensure that it truly does align with the core values that you've set into place and it's not kind of slipping or these little cracks are starting to show in some capacity. And working with an ethical marketer or I guess any team member that that truly values integrity and ethics, it really comes down to making sure that you share the same ethics and being clear from that about that from the get-go. Go. Tejneet Selhi: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Very well said. Very well said. if you could go back and have one honest conversation with yourself on day one of Catalyst, what what would that be and why? Katherine Tuominen: Oof. I would say if I could be honest with myself and go back to day one in terms of making a change or giving myself advice. Tejneet Selhi: giving yourself advice. Let's let's go with that. Katherine Tuominen: Okay, I would say it's a good question. I would say that I guess for some context, back then before Catalyst, I I started a briefly started a startup called Culture Cure, which was about the workplace culture. And I was told back then I needed a tech co founder over and over again. It was like you need a tech co founder to me seriously. And it was always implied in brackets male as well. And the coolest thing about AI right now, which is why I'm probably so excited about it, is I don't need a tech co founder anymore. It's so cool. I can Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Katherine Tuominen: figure it out. And so So I think as as cliche as it might sound, reminding myself that I can figure it out. And even though I don't necessarily know where that pathway may lead or how different tech and sectors will evolve, knowing that no matter what happens, I will be able to figure it out and just keep going, I think that is such a comforting piece of advice I would have benefited from during those hardships or those those down moments to keep going. And yeah, I guess that's the advice I would also give anyone else too. Okay. Tejneet Selhi: Great, great advice. yeah, and you're offered so much advice as a as an early stage founder. And sometimes it's it's hard to know what advice to take and what not to take, but I think I think that's spot on. Catherine, this has been such a great conversation. really, really interesting. and and I love your journey as I mentioned earlier, from Hollywood to Melbourne to Covet to New York and now having built an award winning agency. I mean, congratulations, you've done an amazing job. So well done. Katherine Tuominen: Thank you so much. I it's been a journey, but I've truly enjoyed every moment overall and looking forward to many more years ahead. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm looking forward to following your journey. you know, and I love that integrity is at the heart of what you do. and the the th the thread running through all of this is the refusal to compromise on what matters, and and that's really rare. So that's that's fantastic. and for anyone l listening who leads a health and well wellness brand and wants to build the kind of credibility that outlasts any single campaign, I'd highly recommend checking out Catalyst Brand Strategy at catalystbrandstrategy.com. And if you'd like to connect with Catherine directly, you'll find her on LinkedIn and of course I'll add it to the show notes as always. and a quick word from our sponsors, AFKC, if you're a founder who's tired of the manual grind, chasing leads, onboarding clients, and doing all the admin of your business. please do visit aiphen efficacy dot com to help you build smart and personalised automised automation. and thank you for listening to the entrepreneur odogy. Please do subscribe and follow. and once again Catherine it's been a real pleasure having you on the show and we'll speak again soon I'm sure. Thank you. Katherine Tuominen: Thank you so much. I truly appreciate our conversation today. Speak soon.