Latest / From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies / Etruscan Evil Plans
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians. Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. Dr G 0:33 And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad, Dr G 1:00 And I am Dr. G, and we are somewhere potentially inside the year of 386 BCE. Dr Rad 1:09 I tell you what, Dr. G, we're in a just about the most exciting time of Roman history because the legend that is Camillus is front and centre in my narrative yet again. Dr G 1:20 Yeah, look, I mean, the way that Livy is fanboying all over Camillus is shocking. I have to say. Dr Rad 1:27 So, just to give you a bit of a recap, dear listeners, we are allegedly in 386 BCE circa. I think it's fairly safe to say we're somewhere in the beginning of the fourth century BCE, but I won't nail it down any further than that. Just to be on the safe side, and so far my account of the beginning of 386 BCE has just been full of action. It has been full of virtus on behalf of Camillus. He's commanding the Roman forces as they deal with their many, many enemies. Dr G 2:07 Look, I mean, from where I'm sitting, it feels a little bit unbelievable because I don't have Livy as a source. I have everything else conceivable as a source, and it's really painstaking, like needle in a haystack kind of stuff to be like, I wonder if this is a story somehow. I wonder where this fits in. Dr Rad 2:28 I know it is very tricky, but I think it's safe to say if we're going with the Livy narrative, Rome is definitely going through a difficult time. Even though he's painting it in quite a heroic light, I would say that given that Rome had some sort of disastrous encounter with the Gauls before these events, when exactly we can't be certain. Rome's enemies, I think, are probably closing in, sensing blood in the water, and even their former allies. I mean, the Romans are having troubles with the Etruscans and the Volscians, but that's not exactly news, is it? That's always been the case. However, they also seem to be going through a very tense period with former allies, people who have stood by their side for a long time now. But the tables seem to be turning, Dr G, and even though they're not doing anything too official, because I guess they don't want to get in trouble with Rome unofficially, there's definitely something going on. These guys seem to be getting involved with the warfare against Rome in some sort of capacity, and I'm talking about the Latins and what I have discovered might be the Hernicans, which I really hate saying actually because it sounds like a hernia. It sounds like some sort of medical procedure, but these are their allies. Yeah. Dr G 3:50 And look, maybe that's how the Romans end up feeling about them. Frankly, if they're going to behave like this. Dr Rad 3:57 Exactly. Yes, it's suitable for this moment. They come and they go. So Rome has had a lot of success under Camillus so far in 386 BCE. There's been some wobbly moments. Some tears were shed when the Romans saw their former allies taking the field against them. We're not going to hold that against them. We we like sensitive men on this podcast, so I'm not going to judge the Romans for feeling betrayed. Didn't stop them from trying to kick some serious butt on the battlefield, and the Volscians, unfortunately, in spite of putting up a very good effort were defeated by some treachery and some bad weather. Dr G 4:45 Hmm and a propensity to not attempt to hold out for a siege at all. Dr Rad 4:51 Yes, this became clear to Camillus when he attempted a siege and then thought, "Wait, why am I bothering? It doesn't really seem like they're going to put up much of a." Show here, so I'm just going to use ladders, and that was sufficient. Dr G 5:04 Why, hello, welcome to our city. Dr Rad 5:07 Exactly, yes. So he's had some success against the Volscians around Satricum, and then in Satricum, and he was about to then go for gold against Antium, which is a very important city for the Volscians, I think the Romans have probably had their beady little eyes on it for quite some time. But he was interrupted, Dr G, in our last account. Some envoys had showed up in Rome whilst Camillus was negotiating with the Senate about any further military ventures from Nepete and Sutrium. Dr G 5:44 Hmmm Dr Rad 5:44 which is modern-day Nepi and Sutri, and the Romans decided that it seemed somewhat urgent to help these people instead. And they are more to the north, and they were facing problems with the Etruscans, who the Romans also have historically had some problems with. Dr G 6:04 So everywhere they turn, if Rome turns in a 360 degree direction in any from the top of the capital and looks out, you know what they see in every direction: some neighbor who doesn't like them, or some neighbour that they don't like, and so looking north and seeing that there are Etruscans hassling other people. Not every person who lives north of Rome is an Etruscan, as it turns out. Some of them need Rome's help against the Etruscans, and what would Rome say to that? Why, yes, we're here to help. Dr Rad 6:49 Now I'm going to flag something here for you, Dr G. I know you've been wondering why is Livy giving us yet another episode in Camillus's glory. I'm going to foreshadow something here, and I think this is where you're heading as well. There is going to be something not so nice on the Roman horizon in 385 and 384 BCE. It's going to be very tough for us to hear. There's going to be some internal problems, and it's possible that the way Livy is constructing this particular section of his work, that he is setting up Camillus as a bit of a virtuous counterpoint to what is to come, and that's why everyone's just getting along at this moment, and it seems to be overly harmonious between Camillus and the military tribunes with consular power that he's serving alongside. Because I forgot to mention Dr G, the important thing about 386 is that even though Camillus is very much in the spotlight, he is not officially a dictator or anything. He's just a regular military tribune with conciliar power. Dr G 8:03 look, I think listeners, what we've just heard from Dr. Rad is tantamount to a confession. Dr Rad 8:10 No! Dr G 8:10 That Livy, Livy might be constructing some kind of narrative to suit some purposes. Dr Rad 8:21 It doesn't mean that this didn't all really happen. Just maybe... Dr G 8:26 No, but even even within the context of things that are plausible, the idea that six military tribunes from six very distinguished families are all just happily getting along and letting Camilla's run the show is stretching credibility somewhat? Dr Rad 8:45 I concede nothing, Dr G. Your theories will remain spurious. Dr G 8:51 Spurius Furius, I say. Dr Rad 8:53 That's right, exactly, and that's appropriate given the family that Camillus is from. Dr G 8:59 And unfortunately, I don't have any strong evidential basis for my claims because I've only got fragments. So Livy gets to win. Dr Rad 9:10 I know you're just dying to bring in this inscription you hinted about last episode, and it just still hasn't got to that point. Dr G 9:15 I know. I'm still waiting to bring in my inscription, and it's a good one. Dr Rad 9:19 Yeah, keep your eyes peeled, listeners. Maybe, just maybe, I might be able to finally get through enough of my narrative for Dr G to bring in some of her source material that she's had to really fight to find. Dr G 9:30 We'll see how we go. Dr Rad 9:31 Yeah. All right. So let's talk a little bit about these people that have come to Rome for help. Now, obviously, again related to Camillus in his glory, Veii is now officially under Roman control. It actually has been for a few years now. Well done, Rome. These places are further on than even Veii, but now that Veii is under Roman control, we're now talking obviously about the border. Between Rome and Etrurian settlements being moved further north as well, so it would make sense that the Romans would be concerned about these particular locations now, particularly as these sites were seemingly in positions of interest to Rome in terms of their roots of presumably trade and communication with other places in that area. Dr G 10:33 Yeah. For instance, if we're talking about Sutrium, it's about 50 kilometers north of Rome and 30 kilometers south of Viterbo, so it's sitting in this sort of area which is well established as for travel. Dr Rad 10:48 Yes. Dr G 10:48 And it's a an outpost area at this point in time, but obviously quite strategic. It's considered a bit of a gateway location into broader Etruria. Dr Rad 11:01 Exactly yes, and that is why the Etruscans want to make sure that they have control of these areas because Dr G would allow them to further their evil plans. And at the moment, they're under Roman control, and Rome obviously wants to continue to hang on to them so that there can be no Etruscan evil plans enacted against them. Dr G 11:26 Fair enough. All right. Dr Rad 11:27 Yes. So the Senate say, "Look, Camillus, you've done a bang up job against the Volscians. I mean, the way they just tossed aside their weapons and just handed themselves over to you. I mean, five stars. However, we do need you to focus on this conflict with the Etruscans, it is of interest to us all that these places remain under our control." So they give him the city forces, which had been allocated to one of the other military tribunes with consular power, Quinctius. Now, Dr G, I don't know if you recall. Dr G 12:02 Oh, I I believe I do. Are we talking about the old men and those unfit to fight? Dr Rad 12:06 Yes, it would seem so. Dr G 12:09 We're going to send you north on this very important mission with the best men that Rome has to offer in terms of age and experience. Dr Rad 12:18 Exactly. So good luck with that, Camillus. But you know, if anybody can pull this off, Dr G, I believe that Camillus is that guy. Dr G 12:26 Look, I have no doubt that Livy believed so. Dr Rad 12:30 Now, Camillus is momentarily a little bit disappointed in this allocation of forces. He would rather not be fighting with those who are not good enough to do anything else. However, he says, "All right, well, I I have to acknowledge the reality of this situation, which is that the disciplined, awesome men that are used to serving with me by now are unfortunately far, far away, and I cannot wait for them because this is an urgent situation. They're off with the Volscians, therefore I shall undertake this command because that's just the kind of dutiful chap that I am." His only condition is, however, that he wants Valerius, his unofficial sidekick, to come along with him and command by his side. So Quinctius and Horatius, who were the original guys who were in charge of the city forces and also in charge of supplies, are sent off to Volscian territory to go and chat to the forces that he's left behind and presumably tell them what is going on. Meanwhile, Camillus and Valerius they're off to Sutrium. The Etruscans had already made some headway in this town and managed to capture some of it. As for the remainder of the town that the Etruscans did not have control over, they kind of managed to barricade themselves because they're trying desperately to protect themselves against these invading forces, but it's not going well, Dr G. These are citizens that are trying to resist the Etruscans here. They know that there are forces probably coming from Rome, and they're hoping, obviously, that they're going to send Camillus because.. Dr G 14:13 Who wouldn't want to catch a- Dr Rad 14:14 You want them to send their best. Exactly, yes. Dr G 14:16 Yeah, I want to catch a - catch a glimpse of that guy. Dr Rad 14:20 So they're really just trying to buy time because they're hoping very much that the Romans are going to intervene and stop a complete disaster from unraveling here. Camillus decides he's going to split his forces between himself and Valerius, so they're going to send one of these forces around to try and launch an assault on the actual walls on the side of the town that is actually held by the Etruscans. So, what you might expect, perhaps. Now, this is not because he thinks, well, this is going to be successful, and that Valerius and this force are going to be able to capture it in. Is in fact, Dr G, but a clever diversion, forcing the Etruscans to focus their attention on the attack that is coming from the Romans on that particular side, and ease the pressure on the part of the town that is being held by the citizens, who are obviously completely exhausted, totally strung out, and have just barricaded themselves off. And therefore, if they manage to get control of that part, they then might be able to recapture the town, kind of through a backdoor kind of entrance, I suppose. So, under Camillus's strategy, the Etruscans find themselves attacked on all sides. Dr G, the Romans manage to get inside the city. They're outside the city. They're everywhere. The Etruscans are completely freaked out. They decide the only thing they can do is escape, so they decide they're going to stampede out the only gate that there were no Romans anywhere near, but unfortunately, it wasn't going to be that easy. There's a lot of slaughter. Camillus's forces that have managed to infiltrate through the citizen barricade-they manage to kill most of the Etruscans that they found in the city. Valerius' men, on the other hand, they're not quite as heavily armed, so they decide they're just going to chase them, chase them until their little legs give out as they flee the city, and they keep it up until it gets dark and murder just becomes more difficult. Dr G 16:34 Ah, yes. Well, you know, you can wave your sword around as much as you like, but in the dark, you really just don't know if you're stabbing anything or not. Dr Rad 16:42 So, with apparent ease, Sutrium is now under Roman control once more. Camillus' tactics successful again. Dr G 16:53 All right. So this inscription obviously does not give me any of the narrative detail that would make this a fun battle to think about. Dr Rad 17:01 Okay. Dr G 17:01 But it does bundle together a couple of things. The first is, and this is just the translation: he did not allow the people to migrate to Veii, so we're going back in time already. Dr Rad 17:12 Right Dr G 17:12 After the city had been captured, he celebrated a third triumph after defeating the Etruscans at Sutrium and subduing the Aqueii and the Volscii. Dr Rad 17:23 Interesting. Okay. Dr G 17:24 And I don't want to read the next couple of lines of the inscription because I feel like that's jumping ahead in time at that point. Dr Rad 17:31 Okay. Well, now that the Romans have secured the situation at Sutrium, of course they now have to turn their attention to the other town that has come for their help, which is Nepete, which has already surrendered to the Etruscans. So unfortunately, the Romans' quick help was not quick enough. So this seems like a much more difficult situation than Sutrium, which had managed to hold on until Rome got there. However, it's not just because the Etruscans have managed to take control of it completely before Camillus arrives. It's also because there are traitors in the town, Dr G. Dr G 18:16 Da daa daaaa Dr Rad 18:17 Romans can't trust anyone these days, honestly, so there's a small group within this town that had organised a surrender to the Etruscans, and I think if you look beyond the narrative that Livy's giving us here, it seems probably likely that there's a difference of opinion within within this town about who they want to be allied with, rather than a situation of you know traitors and faithful and that sort of thing. The Romans decide that they're going to see if they can try and use a similar ploy in order to regain control of this area, and that is by smuggling word into some of the leaders in the town, and this is trying to obviously get the people within the town to you know to be convinced that they want to cut themselves off from the Etruscans and they want to help try and turn the town back over to the Romans. Dr G 19:18 Can we do the old switcheroo on them. Dr Rad 19:22 Yeah exactly, yeah. The leaders send back word saying, "Hey, nice idea. However, I don't know if you've noticed, we're completely occupied by the Etruscans right now, and they are totally in control of the city walls and the city gates. So, this is going to be a difficult prospect that you've put before us." So the Romans therefore say, "Okay, okay, I see where you're coming from here. Perhaps what we'll do is we'll destroy the fields around the town first. You know, try and scare people a lot." That tactic might work, but there is no reaction. So the Romans decide they're going to try a different strategy. They basically start gathering up some tree branches and that sort of thing in the nearby area from the fields around there, and they kind of bundle them together, and this, I think, is decide. I think this is basically trying to get them across to the walls of the city, because I think I gather that there are kind of like moats, perhaps, that need to be navigated here. And so, by having these sort of branches in bundles that kind of allows them to have like a a bit of a pathway, I suppose, in order to get them close to the city walls at this point of time. Dr G 20:48 This is sounding complicated, guys. Very complicated. Dr Rad 20:52 Then, once they're close to the city walls, they're going to use a strategy that has worked for them just recently, Dr G. Ladders. Dr G 21:01 Ah, yes. Well. Dr Rad 21:03 Really tall ladders. I mean, I shouldn't just say ladders like it's nothing. These are scaling ladders. These are designed for sieges. I think they actually probably would have been maybe a little scary if you were walking up to the top of them because I imagine them to be very tall. Dr G 21:17 Yeah, definitely. If we look at what are some of the ancient walls that we have, particularly for towns in Italy, because many of them are positioned on hills already. So the natural incline of whatever hill that you're on, plus the wall itself, it's actually quite a tough ask to be like, how long a ladder am I going to need to get over that angle? Dr Rad 21:44 Yeah Dr G 21:45 Yeah, and so by the time you're at at the top of it, it's going to feel really quite unsafe, I would imagine. So I mean, perhaps this makes it even more surprising what happened earlier with the Volscians, where they were like, and we just went over with some ladders. Dr Rad 22:01 Well, I think the thing with the Volscians and in the previous episode is that Camillus was gearing up for a more serious siege. It was just the fact that when he started to construct, you know, the various siege works and whatever that he needed, and there was no reaction from the Volscians. He was like, "Hmm, I wonder if I should bother going through with this. It just seems like they don't care at all." And that's when he thought, "You know what? Just ladders." Ladders coming at them from every direction, and that seems to be what did the trick. And it works again here, Dr G. Dr G 22:35 Oh no. Dr Rad 22:36 Yep. Ladders is all it takes. They managed to recapture the town immediately. Dr G 22:44 Livy. I have just a few questions. Dr Rad 22:49 Once the Romans get inside, they order everyone in there, the Nepesini included, put down your weapons. The whole situation is going to be, and I think we've talked about this before. Actually, I think under Camillus as well, the Romans are not going to kill anyone who is unarmed. They're going to leave that person untouched because I guess they presume that if they've put down the weapons, they're not going to be a threat, and they're on the Roman side. The Etruscans, however, different story. They're going to be killed either way. Yeah. Now the Romans have to also find the traitors within the town who convinced people to surrender to the Etruscans in the first place, and these people were executed. Dr G 23:42 Oh, okay. So they found them. Dr Rad 23:45 They did. Dr G 23:46 Oh, okay. Dr Rad 23:47 Yeah. The innocent people, as in the people that were pro Rome, are allowed to obviously reclaim their possessions, resume life as normal, and just to be sure, the Romans decided to leave behind a little garrison. Dr G 24:04 Yes. Well. Okay. Fair enough. Dr Rad 24:08 Yeah. Dr G 24:09 All right. So the Romans have been wholly successful in their journey north. These two places have asked for help. Rome has helped both, and have also re-established or strengthened their foothold in these sort of outlying places that border on Etruria. Okay. Dr Rad 24:30 Yeah, I mean, Dr G 24:31 Thanks, Camillus. Dr Rad 24:32 Two cities retaken. I don't know what more evidence I really need to keep piling up here about Camillus' glory here, but he's able to march his army back to Rome in total glory. And need I remind you, Dr G, this is the useless army. Dr G 24:47 I was going to say these were the old guys. Well, I take that back for a moment because you've already established. You've mentioned that Camillus is quite old at this point as well. So he's basically just hanging out with his old. Buddies, so I feel like this is like the wily crowd where it's like I think about this in terms of a sports analogy, really, because as I've gotten older, I have to play more clever because I don't just have the same burst of energy. I can't just waste my energy the way that I could when I was younger, and it's like I've got to be canny, I've got to be strategic all the time. So I feel like Camillus is out here, and he's out here with you know the old guys, and he's like, "All right, you reckon ladders? All right, ladders." It is very clever, very strategic. Dr Rad 25:38 Well, and I presume as well that some of these people would have had experience. It just might be that they've aged out, if you will, and they're just not the guys that Camillus would have chosen initially. But they've done very well, Dr G. It's again remarkably easy to reestablish themselves in this area. Dr G 26:01 Wow! Dr Rad 26:02 Now, at this moment, back in Rome, the Romans decide that they are still deeply hurt by the behaviour of their former allies, the Latins and the Hernicians. They decide they're going to ask, why have you not been sending us soldiers when we've been fighting so much recently? I mean, isn't that meant to be the deal between us? I thought we had something of an understanding here. Dr G 26:37 Wow, they're really just going to poke the bear, are they? I mean, these are the guys that they've already seen wander off, fight on the other side, and then disappear. They're like, "Now we had an alliance..." Dr Rad 26:50 Well, see, this is the problem, and this is something that will continue to come up in Rome's history. It can be tricky to figure out exactly under what circumstances you are at war, you know, is this an official declaration of war, or is this something else that someone is privately doing? What's the scenario, and how is Rome going to respond? Because, as you know, the Romans like things to be very formal and clear cut, and so they don't appreciate this uncertainty, and the Latins and the Hernicians, they don't make the situation too much clearer. In that they decide to play the innocent card. They say, "Rome, Rome, Rome. Hang on a second here. You can't hold us as a people, you know, as official states responsible just because some silly teenagers decided to go and volunteer alongside the Volscians. That's a private decision on their part. And BTDubs, we have 100% made sure that those people have been punished because I mean they all died in the war with you, which you know you you might not have realized, but none of them actually returned home. So really, the troublemakers they no longer exist. So you've done your job on that front, and in terms of us not sending soldiers right now, well, it's really just because of our geographic location. We find the Volscians terrifying, and that's why we didn't help you in that situation." Now the Roman senators process this for about 30 seconds and then say, "I think it's time to start war with the Latins and the Hernicians. They're clearly liars, faithless liars." However- Dr G 28:58 It certainly doesn't seem like the stories line up, does it because we've got first of all this account where they were hanging out with the enemy and then they disappeared. Dr Rad 29:08 Yeah Dr G 29:09 And you're like, okay, so they went home, but no, apparently not. No. Dr Rad 29:14 Didn't make it. Never came home. Tragedy. Yeah, basically a whole generation wiped out. Dr G 29:20 This is a tragedy. Dr Rad 29:22 Yeah, so at least the Romans are savvy enough not to believe this, I suppose, and they're very much thinking, yeah, it's got to be war. These guys have stepped way out of line, and we don't believe them for a second. However, unfortunately, it's really not the best timing. So the Senate are about to react to this, but then they restrain themselves for the moment. And this is where 386 BCE actually wraps up for me. Dr G 29:54 Oh, interesting. All right. Well, I shan't on that case share the rest of the inscription because it's clearly too soon. Dr Rad 30:03 Unbelievable. Dr G 30:04 So the thing that this inscription does say is that Camillus is awarded a triumph for these defeat of the Etruscan forces at Sutrium, and for his ability to subdue the Aequii, which we haven't really heard about, and the Volscian. So he's taken at least in Livy's account two places, if not three. Is there any mention of a triumph? Dr Rad 30:29 Well, he's had the triumph in my account. He's had the triple triumph before. I wonder where this inscription is from, and is there any dating that we can ascribe to it, which might help to narrow things down a little bit. Dr G 30:46 Look, it's definitely an inscription from from Rome itself, so comes from Volume Six of the CIL, so comes from the centre of town. But as for the date of it, that's harder to establish because looking at the image that I have, the image looks like it's probably more likely it's imperial, just from like the look of the text and the style of the letters. But I don't know. To be honest, I haven't gotten much further than that, but it does look-it doesn't look fourth century. Let's put it that way. Dr Rad 31:26 Interesting. It would seem to me that this inscription is probably referring to his earlier triumphs, because, according to Livy's account, right after everything happened with the Gauls, he has that triple victory, where within a very very short space of time he he triumphs against the Volscians, the Aequians, and the Etruscans at Sutrium, and so this is a later encounter in Sutrium with the Etruscans. So it's obviously a city that is under contention at this point in time, it's obviously been an area that both Rome and the Etruscans want control of. Or, as we know, this is a really tricky period of Roman history to figure out. I guess I wonder if maybe there's been a bit of padding of the material. I don't know. I mean, they are different. They are different stories in a sense, but in both situations, the people of Sutrium need help from Camillus against the Etruscans. Dr G 32:37 Yes, and the thing with this inscription is, again, it is fragmentary, so we don't have the whole thing, and but it seems to be suggesting that there is sort of like a layered approach, like there's potentially triumphs for X, Y, and Z, and here's a triumph for this thing, and here's another triumph for that thing, so it's just trying to sort of locate them within like the broader narrative. And the thing is that because the narrative source material from Livy has been so favourable to Camillus and so emphatic about how much he was able to achieve and how quickly he was able to achieve it, it there is the potential for these triumphs to get all mixed up as well because there's just so much going on. Dr Rad 33:28 Yeah Dr G 33:28 And we - clearly he was exceptional within a very short space of time, and the Romans really valued that. And those stories over time have become really important to Roman identity and the idea of Camillus as this sort of refounding figure. So, where this inscription fits into all of that, I'm not sure. Where does that sync up or deviate from what Livy is doing? I'm not sure. But it's interesting that there is something that is in a different type of evidence that's giving us a little bit of information about this period as well. Dr Rad 34:10 Yeah, definitely. I I think it is interesting that Camillus is very active against the same enemies, but at the same time, as we know, that's kind of how Rome has been doing it for quite some time. They just keep fighting the same people, so it's not to say that there weren't multiple conflicts in a short space of time in this period. How Camillus was involved is obviously it is open for question to a certain extent, but yeah, it is interesting that we are dealing with yet again conflict with the Volscians, and yet again more trouble with the Allies. What are they doing? Are they allies? Are they not? It's the same kind of stuff that keeps coming up in this time period, and we know that I that this particular part of the 380s, I think, is some of the most. Uncertain in terms of what is happening because we are heading towards a major internal conflict. Which, whilst there are going to be aspects of that that we also question again, has to be based on something that actually happened. There's some basis, in fact, for what we're about to talk about in 385. So, yeah, it is it is interesting, but yeah, according to Livy's account, anyway, I would put that triple triumph back in 389. Dr G 35:29 Interesting. Dr Rad 35:30 As in the victories. That's when I would see them taking place because that was when he had that very sad little trail of refugees, you know, with their little teddy bears dragging along behind them, and he was like, "Put your teddy bears down, guys. Don't you worry. I'll get your town back." Dr G 35:45 Ah, yes, the taking - the retaking - of the town in a single day. Dr Rad 35:48 Exactly. Dr G 35:48 And so, and this is the other thing is that we know the chronology is a bit all over the shop as well. So, Diodorus Siculus is our main counterbalance to this idea that we've got this easy flow of years because we're definitely missing years, or we don't know when stuff happened. At this point in time, it seems like there is a 10-year gap between the dating systems that historians like Diadorus are using versus where Livy's thinks we're up to. Dr Rad 36:19 Yeah Dr G 36:19 And this is all built on the back of the fact that they and the siege of Veii to be 10 years long Dr Rad 36:29 Yes yes Dr G 36:30 for very specific meaningful purposes, which has put out the whole dating chronology ever since then. So we're sometime in the 380s or the 370s. Dr Rad 36:43 Yeah, and we also can't be 100% certain when this encounter with the Gauls happened. We know obviously it's somewhere in this time period, and it's we're probably only a few years off if we're off at all. But it's possible that in reality, in 387. This is when the Gaul stuff is going down, so it is really hard to know what is going on. I mean, even Camillus himself, as you might recall in the previous episode when he's giving that inspirational battle speech, he himself says, "Guys, it's the same people. We just beat them. We just beat them." Dr G 37:19 Literally. Dr Rad 37:20 Yeah, I mean, so they have some teenagers from our former allies. So what? These are the same people, and this is where it gets confusing, of course, with this whole unconditional surrender thing as well that happened in the previous year with the Volscians, at least the forces at Satricum, and I must admit, I find myself getting really confused between Satricum, Sutrium. What's going on here? But we did also have a moment previously where Livy makes this comment about how Camillus wraps up things with the Volscians in a previous battle, and he makes it sound really formal and over, and it's clearly not. So it's just very confusing to try and figure out how all of this works, and and that's the thing. No matter how many times the account that Livy's gives us seems to indicate something very formal about the way that the Volscians are surrendering, it's obviously not a forever. It's not a promise. the The warfare will continue, Dr G 38:23 Like the famous song "It Ain't Over Till It's Over". So this means that we're up to 385. Dr Rad 38:33 It does, and this is going to be a very big year. We may never see 384. Dr G 39:08 Well, welcome everybody to a brand new year in Roman history. Dr Rad 39:14 So, Dr. G, who are our magistrates for 385 BCE? Dr G 39:19 Oh boy, I've got a whole list of them, so we've got military tribunes with consular power first. Dr Rad 39:25 Naturally, I don't expect consuls anymore. What are consuls? Dr G 39:28 We'll get to them eventually. Aulus Manlius Capitolinus. He's been in this role before. And we have Publius Cornelius. We don't know the rest of his name. Possibly military tribune previously in 389. Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus Capitolinus. You may remember this guy from previous years, such as maybe a couple of years ago. Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus Capitolinus. Oh, just they're just swilling about brothers, probably. Dr Rad 40:06 The Quinctii, yeah. Dr G 40:07 Yep, Lucius Papirius Cursor. We've also seen him before, and potentially, and he's in big brackets, Gnaeus Sergius Fidenas Coxo. Dr Rad 40:21 I do remember that name Dr G 40:23 Who has also come up before. Now he's in a highly doubtful situation because Broughton has put him in brackets. So there is also a dictator listed for this year, and just to warn everybody, it's not who you think it's going to be. Dr Rad 40:38 What it's not Camillus? Oh my god! Dr G 40:42 How is it possible? It's almost like he's taken a short holiday because he doesn't feature in the list at all. He's come back with all of the old guys and be like, you know what? Taking a bit of a breather. So our dictator is Aurelius Cornelius Cossus. Previously was a consul in 413, so he must be getting on a bit, and we'll see what happens to him. And his Master of the Horse is Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus Capitolinus. See, see above. So one of the military tribunes gets drawn into being a Master of the Horse. Dr Rad 41:22 Interesting. Dr G 41:23 Yes. What this might mean in terms of a narrative is anybody's guess. Dr Rad 41:29 I can tell you exactly where these guys fit into the narrative. So, 385, Dr G, is going to be a big one. I think we'll probably just set the scene a little bit here. So, a legendary year, but not for good reasons, really. Rome is going to continue to face problems with its neighbours and its former allies. Those problems obviously have not gone away. You might recall I just said the Senate restrained themselves from going to war against these faithless traitors who were their allies for a really long time before this, and that is because of what ends up developing on the domestic front, and it's all going to focus on a very elite, very famous patrician that we have come across before, and that is Marcus Manlius Capitolinus. Dr G 42:26 Oh, huzzah! I have source material for this. Dr Rad 42:28 Oh, I thought you might. Now I'm going to give you a little bit of context for this guy because it has been a little while since we talked about him, although not that long. So Manlius is from a family we've talked about a bit up until this point. He had been consul in 392. Yes, that's right. I said consul. Dr G 42:49 It's been it's rare, but it happens. Dr Rad 42:51 Yeah, he had some distinguished military accomplishments on his resume. He had been awarded an ovatio for a victory against the Aequians. So there you go. Now, most notably, he had come to the fore during the whole incident with the Gauls. This is the guy when the Gauls are trying to scale the Capitoline where the core of the Roman forces are holding on for dear life. He's the one that finally wakes up in the middle of the night and starts kicking the Gauls off the hill and wakes up everybody else, so that Rome remains technically kind of unconquered in a complete sense by the Gaulish forces. So he's had a pretty glorious moment in his not too distant past. Dr G 43:53 He is very famous at this point in time because he basically saves the Capitol from the attack. Dr Rad 44:04 Although, really, the geese are the ones that should get the credit. I don't think he would have woken up if not for the geese. Dr G 44:09 I was going to say he definitely can't take all of the credit because it was the honking of the sacred geese. Dr Rad 44:15 Exactly Dr G 44:15 And he was the one who woke up and realised something was going on, and he was the one who first pushed the Gauls back down off the hill. Dr Rad 44:24 Yeah. Dr G 44:25 So, which is great news, and this is also the moment that leads him to gain the cognomen of Capitolinus. So, because he does this great deed and manages to protect the Capitoline Hill, he is awarded this cognomen. So other families have it as well for other reasons. But the power of cognomens are that they can just be like a kind of a an additional name for somebody that is allocated. And as we go through Roman history, these become sort of branches of families as well. But he has this reputation now of being a saviour of the city, and this seems to maybe have transformed his reputation to such a degree that mere few years later, he maybe has slightly larger notions for himself than he should. Dr Rad 45:21 Yes, and and this is interesting actually that you bring up his name as well because I think even though he does obviously have this very famous moment, it is believed that he in reality actually had his cognomen because his family resided on the Capitol, and that may have been why he was one of the people who decided to stay behind and be part of the forces defending Rome, or at least defending the the heart of Rome and the temples and that sort of thing from the Gauls. So there is a bit of debate about that name, but I totally agree with you that by this point, just a few years later, he is incredibly arrogant. So much so that he looks down on all the other patricians, and they're pretty arrogant. I don't know if we've established that in this podcast, but they're pretty arrogant group. So for other people in that group to say, "Whoa, that guy's arrogant!" that must mean something. Dr G 46:16 It is a big call to be like, of all of the arrogant people that we know, this guy in particular is the most arrogant. But it seems that he has accrued quite a reputation for himself, and I'm interested in how Livy might navigate this because part of the discussion about Marcus Manlius is that he is able to start paying debtors and paying people out of debt, and somewhere along the line, his patrician credentials have translated into exceptional wealth, and this may be something he possessed before the moment with the sacred geese, or maybe something that he's sort of developed over time since then, I'm not sure. But he ends up being in a position where he starts building a reputation for himself through enabling other people to get out of their debts, and this becomes a bit of a problem. Dr Rad 47:23 You're getting way ahead of yourself, Dr G. Dr G 47:27 I don't know if I'm getting well ahead. Dr Rad 47:28 Yeah, Livy would never cut to the chase like that. There's so much more of a build-up. Dr G 47:33 I'm just putting it out there. Dr Rad 47:36 No, you're absolutely right. Those are definitely the major beats of his story. But Livy really wants to build up to this, and I think that's because of the way he wants to contrast Camillus and Manlius. Dr G 47:48 Now we get to the heart of how he's been wasting our time with Camillus. Dr Rad 47:52 Wasting our time with all that glory? Never! But essentially, Manlius has this inflated idea of who he is and what he's done, although obviously it's hard to overstate that you single-handedly saved the Capitol and the citadel of Rome. Nonetheless, his attention I think is particularly focused on Canillas, and this is the relationship. He feels that he is just the most awesome guy alive because look at what he's done. I mean, who else can say that they saved the Capitol and the citadel? I mean, this is so important to Rome, and he feels that he's been very successful in other aspects of his career. And yet, when he looks around, he feels there are other people that are doing better than him in terms of their reputation and just the way that they've been established, obviously by fellow Romans. And Camillus is the person he's particularly fixated on, and he really dislikes the way things played out in 386 BCE, which was that even though Camillus was just a regular military tribune with consular power, he hated the fact that all of his colleagues just basically bowed down and acted like Camillus was effectively a dictator by taking orders from him and letting him call the shots. This is really plaguing him, and he's like, "Guys, have you not noticed that Camillus wouldn't have been able to swoop in and help kick the Gauls out and re-establish Rome if not for my act? My act is what set all of this in motion. Therefore, Camillus is nothing compared to moi. How dare you not be giving me more attention and be looking at Camillus in this way that he somehow has earned this kind of deference, even when he's not officially a dictator?" It's really eating away at him. Dr G 50:00 Look, I mean, I feel for the guy, but I'm not sure that he's justified. Dr Rad 50:06 Oh, he goes into even more detail. He points out that Camillus only comes back onto the scene in Livyland when the Gauls are about to receive their payment, when a transaction is taking place and peace is being discussed, but Manlius, Manlius was involved in the real fighting, in all the confusion, the darkness when the Gauls were aiming to destroy the Rome and their blood was up. I mean, what? And then he starts to point out that, look, I know that there's been some kind of military success achieved under Camillus of late. I don't know, whatever. However, why is Camillus being glorified so much for having conquered all these places as if he did it single-handedly? I mean, what about the soldiers? They seem to be being overlooked, and they're the ones that are really responsible. So this is the train of thought that he is trapped in in 385. Dr G 51:14 Alright, just to put this in context, listeners. Yes. While Dr Rad was embodying Marcus Manlius and his sort of tirade of jealousy. I'm just just taking a quick look back through my notes just to see if he'd bothered to hold any political position since 390 BCE when the sack of Gaul, the sack by the Gauls happened. And no, I mean he he doesn't seem to have tried to maintain a political profile. Dr Rad 51:43 I think he just decided that that was it. That was the moment that he was going to dine out on that story for the rest of his life. Dr G 51:51 But you know, he he's not a military tribune with consular power in any of the subsequent years. He's he's nothing. And I'm like, dude, what? What's your contribution? You woke up because of some geese. Dr Rad 52:06 And we're not even sure they were geese. Dr G 52:09 They were definitely sacred, whatever the bird type. But you're telling me, buddy, that like five years out from that situation, you're mad that the guy who turned up late to the sack of Gaul has proven his worth on the battlefield multiple times since then. Dr Rad 52:28 Now you think Camillus has proven his worth on the battlefield? It's all about convenience for Dr G just as much as Livy. It turns out. Dr G 52:38 I'm not saying I'd write an unbiased narrative. I certainly wouldn't. Dr Rad 52:42 Look. This is all obviously really trying to establish Livy's didactic purpose, if you will. He is obviously trying to teach a lesson in the way that you conduct yourself if you're in the position that these men are in. Even though Camillus is highly successful, if we are to believe Livy's account, he doesn't get above himself. Whereas Manlius is someone who Livy acknowledges is a hero and is a great man. He has a huge chip on his shoulder and feels that he deserves more than he has been given. And actually, specifically, it's in leadership. Perhaps he expected people to turn to him more after everything happened with the Gauls, and therefore he's been overlooked. And Camillus has been, you know, re-elected in that time period, and he hasn't. I mean, it's all of this stuff that's eating away at him, and his. And I'm going to quote my translation directly here: "impetuous and passionate nature that end up being his undoing". And this is what Livy is going to be drawing attention to. And I guess this has something to do with the way that, in general, the Romans sort of conceive of human nature, which is that you are born with these characteristics and these tendencies, and they are always there. It's a question, I suppose, of how they're going to come out and how your life is going to go, and what situations arise as to how those qualities are going to reveal themselves. And so, I guess Livy would probably be picturing this as being the way that Manlius always was, but the way that events have played out, it means that these flaws that he's always had are going to be his undoing. Dr G 54:45 This might be the suspenseful note on which to wrap up this episode. Dr Rad 54:51 Very nice, Dr G. I might add one final little detail as a bit of a tidbit for our listeners. It's at this point that. As you've highlighted, he decides to turn against his fellow patricians. Ooo yes. Dr G 55:08 Oh well, I can only imagine that's going to go really well. Dr Rad 55:14 I look forward to discussing that with you in much, much more detail over the next several years, I imagine. Dr G 55:23 Oh boy! All right. Well, sounds like fun. I'm looking forward to it too. Dr Rad 55:27 All right, Dr. G, and that means it's time for us to do the Partial Pick. Dr G 55:37 All right, Rome. You could win 50 gold eagles, but to do that, you'd have to score 10 eagles in each of the five categories which we've chosen, and I'm beginning to wonder if we chose them specifically with your failure in mind. Dr Rad 55:55 Hey, we get to have more fun that way, I guess. Dr G 55:57 So the first category is military clout. Dr Rad 56:02 Well, definitely. I mean, the ease with which Camillus was able to establish Roman control or re-establish Roman control, I should say, over those two cities, I mean. Dr G 56:17 Yes, powerful stuff, Camillus. Yeah. Look, I don't have any any qualms about any of that. It all sounded like very smooth sailing. Thanks, Livy. Dr Rad 56:26 Yes, very smooth sailing. Dr G 56:27 I guess, I guess that's a 10. Dr Rad 56:28 Lots of Etruscans dead. Lots of Etruscans dead. Dr G 56:33 That's no good. Dr Rad 56:34 Yeah. Dr G 56:35 So top marks. Dr Rad 56:37 Yep. Oh, 10. You're gonna give him a 10? Dr G 56:39 Well, they didn't - there wasn't any quibble about anything, was there? Like there was no hesitation at the walls. Dr Rad 56:46 Well, to be fair, they weren't faced with their former allies right in front of their faces, consorting with the enemy. I mean, that's what really got to them before. I mean, I think people who hold the Romans up as this epitome of masculinity overlook how sensitive they can be. Dr G 57:05 Yeah, poor guys. There's nothing like seeing your allies on the wrong side of the battlefield, and like, what? Yeah. Dr Rad 57:12 So I'll take the 10. I'll take the 10. Dr G 57:15 Diplomacy. Dr Rad 57:17 Well, I mean, usually I say that warfare doesn't go well with diplomacy. However, I don't know. Do we see the Romans rushing to help these places that are obviously under their control diplomatic? I mean, they they literally drop everything to go and help them. They don't even bother to get the good forces. Just like, come on, come on, you seven-year-olds, let's hit the tracks. Dr G 57:43 Come on, boys, we gotta get back out there. Dr Rad 57:46 It's Dad's army over here. Dr G 57:48 Yeah, yeah. Look, I suppose I don't want to give it a full sort of weight of diplomacy because I feel like that would involve negotiations. But in the sense that they they do receive a call for help and they do step up. Obviously, it's their in their own interest to do so, but they are helping other people. So maybe a five. Dr Rad 58:09 Yeah, I feel like that has to count because I mean, look, there's a there's a hefty dose of self interest. I won't deny that, but I still feel like it is diplomatic to go and help these people rather than pursue the other several avenues of warfare that Romat opened to it at that time. Dr G 58:32 And this is why you have six military tribunes just in case. Dr Rad 58:36 Yeah. Dr G 58:37 All right. Expansion. Dr Rad 58:41 Not really. I feel. I mean, these are places that they're reclaiming. They're not exactly expanding into. So it would seem. Dr G 58:52 All right. So virtus. Dr Rad 58:57 Sadly, there's no standard bearer Camillus union in this particular episode, like there was in a previous episode. Dr G 59:06 Yeah, look, and not even a story of somebody going ahead with the ladder and being like, "I did it, guys! I took it myself." Dr Rad 59:12 That's right. Yeah, we don't really get a lot of specific detail. Just, I mean, I'll give a special shout out to the citizens that barricaded themselves into a part of their town to wait for the Romans to come to the rescue. That would have been difficult, but I don't think I would describe it as weirdus. And it's also not technically the Romans who are doing it. Dr G 59:36 Correct. Dr Rad 59:36 Yeah. Dr G 59:37 All right. And finally, the citizen score. It's all great news if you're an old guy in Rome, because you're like, wait a minute, I wasn't expecting to be going on a forced march at this stage of life. Dr Rad 59:48 But they are getting to relive those glory days and serve alongside Camillus. Is there a greater honour? I mean, the ease with which Rome. Seems to take this town and deal with the issues. It doesn't sound like they lost a lot of their own men, according to the way that Livy is painting this story, and they get to come back in glory. Dr G 1:00:18 Oh, that's true. Potentially a triumph, depending on your source. Dr Rad 1:00:22 I don't know whether we should factor in Marcus Manlius Capitolinus at this point in time, because at the moment he's just an arrogant douchebag. But then all the patricians are a good douchebag. So is that really any different to any other day? Dr G 1:00:35 But he's also not specifically being a douchebag to the other citizens. Dr Rad 1:00:39 No, and in fact, it's rather the opposite. He's about to be a douchebag to the patricians and be really nice to the plebeians, so... Dr G 1:00:46 Hey! Dr Rad 1:00:50 Yeah. So I don't even though the internal conflict is not necessarily good for Rome for the citizens. Dr G 1:01:01 Yes, well, but that sort of remains in the future a little bit, doesn't it? It is so, Dr Rad 1:01:05 Yeah. Dr G 1:01:06 I think it might still be a zero, Dr Rad 1:01:10 But the victory, the old guys, the dad's army! Dr G 1:01:15 Okay, well, what score would you give them? Dr Rad 1:01:18 Well, I just feel like it's got to be reassuring for Rome to have all this victory, and for Camillus to still be unblemished in their eyes. So, I'm not going to rate it super highly because it's not really something that's happening, I suppose, to the citizens in a way. I mean, the citizen soldiers, sure, but I still feel like it's got to be like maybe like a three or something like that. Dr G 1:01:43 Yeah, I mean, at least they went out and they didn't lose. Dr Rad 1:01:47 Exactly, and there's no hideous tax burden or you know major financial disruption by any of this stuff that's happening. And they get their lines of communication held open and their lines of travel, so that's good. That's good news. Maybe four. Maybe I was underselling it. Dr G 1:02:08 I think it's a three. Dr Rad 1:02:10 All right. Well, Dr G, that means we have a grand total of 18 golden eagles. If Rome kicks this up, I'm going to have to get a calculator in here because I do not have more than 10 fingers. Dr G 1:02:22 They're doing so well. Oh my goodness! Oh well. I'm looking forward to our next chat so we can delve further into the the tale of Manlius and what he gets up to next. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can find us on Patreon and Ko-fi. We've also published two books on ancient Roman history: "Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome" examines the different literary accounts of the earliest rulers recorded in Roman history; "Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire" is full of the sorts of stories the Romans wished you didn't know about them, and is guaranteed to make for interesting conversation. Thank you to all our Patreon supporters. We are truly humbled by your patronage. Transcribed by https://otter.ai