Latest / Tracks To Success / Janice Kapner

Transcript

Janice Kapner · Tracks To Success

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hi there, everybody.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Craig Cannon.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, on this edition of Tracks to Success, what does it take to help leaders find clarity when the pressure is high?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: The story is complicated, and every word matters.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you build trust while helping a massive company transform in front of the world?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: For more than three decades, this strategic communications leader built a career around brand leadership, corporate reputation, and guiding organizations through defining moments.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Her journey included leadership roles at Microsoft, and more than a decade at T-Mobile, where she helped shape and share the story of one of the most destructive transformations in corporate America.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, she's using that experience to help CEOs, boards, and leadership teams navigate transformation, crisis, culture, and growth.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Meet Janice Katner, the career that put her at the center of high-stakes communication.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Her inspiring story of success starts now.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Tracks to Success, the podcast that introduces you to inspiring people with inspiring stories.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's your chance to hear from top leaders, entrepreneurs, visionaries, and change makers as they share how they found their way to the top and how their journey can help you find your own.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: And now here's your host, former network broadcaster, C-suite executive, best-selling author, and keynote speaker, Craig King.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Janice, thank you so much for joining me.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes there are people that you come across in your career and you just you don't forget them.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're memorable.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: I like to say they're sticky.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um, that was you years ago.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was so fortunate to fly to Seattle to speak to your team.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: You were at Microsoft, and I remember how excited I was.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And here we are years later, and I still remember you, and I'm so glad you're on tracks to success.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so I appreciate the invite.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: This is so exciting when I heard from you.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: It all these memories came back right from that um era at Microsoft, which was a really good time.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: It was so great to have you.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're gonna get into that.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: I want to actually um look, you spent more than three decades help helping major companies and CEOs and leaders communicate better.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna talk about the different companies, but I want to go all the way back to the beginning, if I can.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when you were growing up, what you were like as a child, did you even think, or maybe your parents or whatever, said, Oh, you're gonna be this.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: What was that like back then?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: I was that kid that had no idea what she wanted to do, right?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like I have a sister who knew early she wanted to be an attorney, was gonna like, and and followed through.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I always felt like, gosh, I should probably have a better idea of what the heck I want to do with my life because I was um, I was really into animals.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: I rode horses, I, you know, was much more interested in spending my weekends out on the ranch um on horseback than I was sort of doing school social stuff for a long time.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so for career, the only thing that I knew I wanted was I wanted some, um, I wanted to have a nest enough success to have autonomy and independence, whatever that meant.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: I just wanted, I came from a big family, I was the baby.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: So you're sort of always going with the flow on where everybody else is going when it's a big group of people.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, you know, I just want to have the ability to stand on my own two feet and do whatever it is I want to do, however, I might get there.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: But I had no idea of, you know, Silicon Valley and the bubble and IPOs, and like that was all learn as you go kind of stuff.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was the kid that always wanted to be a sportscaster, be on TV, be a presenter, if you will, somewhere in media.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously that leads to communication.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it kind of makes sense.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you were to talk to my parents, um, they would have said, Yeah, he was a yapper and he was always talking, communicating to anybody that would listen or give him any kind of time.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: What about you?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, were you always good at communication?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're basically been teaching it for a number of years.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: I was I was a quiet kid, you know, I was a little um retrospective, introspective.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so, but what my dad always used to say, and he had, you know, four girls and um retired to uh small ranch in Santa Rosa after working for ironically ATT for years and years and years, and you know, did 30 years and retired.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so he was a corporate guy and a field guy, and you know, regional sales offices and bouncing around.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so oddly, then he had this appetite to run a um a small ranch and be out in nature and have animals.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was that, you know, the kid that was uh quiet as the youngest child, and everybody else sort of was much louder and more gregarious.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I lost my mom at a young age, so I was sort of that, you know, kid finding her way.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: And what he used to say all the time, and it was very default, it wasn't a hype speech.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: It was sort of like, well, you're gonna do whatever you want to do.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I at the time, you know, you're a kid, you don't think about those things.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: But I what I will tell you many, many, many years later is people will say to me, Oh, did you, you know, feel like you had to fight against being a woman in the workplace or, you know, those kinds of things.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, honestly, I like everybody ran into my fair share of things.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: But my father sort of just presumptively set a tone of, well, you'll do what you want to do.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: You've you're smart, you're capable, you're a hard worker, you'll figure it out and you'll do it.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: So it wasn't uh, you can only do this or you should do this, or you're gonna have to fight your way to the it was just this presumptive, and I swear it, it became second nature.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's just sort of how I thought about it.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: So my parents would tell you, well, we knew she would do something and be successful.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: We didn't know what, she didn't know what.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: We just didn't worry about it because I was that quiet, self-sufficient youngest child, and they were just like, She uh of all the children, who are you worried about?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: Not Janice, which as an adult, you're like, that's a real compliment.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: As a kid, you're like, whatever, you know.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: I thought the youngest kid always ran the family.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that's usually how it seemed to go.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: At least it hasn't.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: I have siblings that would tell you that's true.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: That I I, you know, the I think you do, you sort of you're kind of Switzerland at the end.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: You see the siblings that have lots in common, the siblings that have lots of conflict.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: You crave your siblings' time.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: There's a big age gap between me and my my um older sisters.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: And and so you're a little bit of like you want to be glue everybody together and shepherd everybody.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: And that is, I do think that's a youngest child thing.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: It certainly has been for me.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Did you have a mentor that stands out?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody, I mean, you mentioned your dad a few times there, but like that maybe led you in the direction of your career or changed the direction of your career, somebody that you really, you know, admired along the way.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, I used to I the short answer is no, I don't have a single person.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: What I do have is as a younger child with sisters that were 12, 14, 16 years older than me.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I had this in college, I used to talk to friends and they'd be like, you know, oh, which one do you want to be like?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I actually look at them as a blended entity.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: I love my sister Pam's professionalism and drive as an attorney, my sister Barbara's appetite for the arts and desire to, you know, really understand that part of frankly culture.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: My sister Deborah's just instinctive, maternal and um warmth.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so I sort of had this blend in my head of like, I want that, I want to be like Deborah here and like Pam here and like Barbara here and my dad's work ethic.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I sort of had this culmination of you cherry-pick the things that you just thought were so admirable about your film, and I aspired to bring them all together.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd like to think that I do in many circumstances, definitely not all the time.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: And then on the work front, I took a similar tone of like you would see somebody who's like an amazing speaker.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: Gosh, they capture the room.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: I really wish, you know, I would like to learn that, or a female leader who, like an Amy Hood at Microsoft, who's just broken some ceilings and done some amazing work and is still a very warm human being.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: I I would see those kinds of characteristics and compile them into the type of professional or leader or individual that I wanted to be.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't have a clue where that came from, except for maybe being the baby and having all of these lovely humans that were doing different things in the world to look at and go, oh, that's so cool.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what, but it carried into instead of having kind of a single because I think I didn't know what I wanted to do.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I had some lucky breaks and then I, you know, worked hard to take advantage of those opportunities.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then as you go, you you see things you're like, I think that's so admirable, or I really admire how somebody does this, or and you try and pick up those traits.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's really how I've navigated.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think you might have just answered my next question because I didn't want to bury the lead.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when you see Microsoft on somebody's um on somebody's resume, if you will, or their career history chart, you're like, wow, that's impressive.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: The question is, do you know how you got there?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, I have to try, I have to credit my husband for the Microsoft step for sure, because we I was at a startup in Silicon Valley and we were actually on an IPO road show.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, if you know the company WebEx that, you know, does kind of what we're doing here with Zoom.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they had an IPO, got out publicly, and we were at a direct competitor company at the time called Placeware.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: And the literally they IPO'd and kind of the bubble burst and our roadshow dried up really quickly, not because of the business, but because of like what was happening in Silicon Valley.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: And um, it was a very unfortunate timing, right?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, okay, they got funded and got out, and now you know, we have a a similar but differentiated technology, and we're not gonna have that window until and you'd have no idea, right, how long the window is gonna take to open.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: And Microsoft came calling and they wanted to buy the company.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember, okay, fine, Silicon Valley, things get bought and sold all the time.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's not, you know, that's not the end of the world.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: And frankly, the valley was really ramping.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I came home and I just said, so it looks like I have to go start looking for a job since we're gonna get, you know, get acquired.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: And he looked at me and he was like, and why wouldn't you consider doing a couple of years up at Microsoft?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like Seattle's a great place.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: We could do a couple of years in Seattle.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like I it hadn't, it didn't dawn on me.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: I just assumed we're gonna stay in Silicon Valley and I will find something else.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: And he opened that possibility.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: And the rest is kind of history.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: And bear in mind that two years was back in 2003 and we're still in the Seattle area.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: So it was a bigger life change moment than even just a career step into Microsoft.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: And look, Microsoft puts you through it, particularly in an acquisition to get in the door.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, there's a little stigma of like if you come in through an acquisition, did you really earn the chair at Microsoft and you're gonna have to prove yourself and you have to go through multiple panel interviews, even though you're already a employee at the company they're buying, and most people get d-leveled and you know, all the things that come with acquisitions.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so we had to jump through all those hoops in order to land one of the um the chairs, but I didn't know it was gonna lead to a decade and um and the success I had.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it, you know, just worked out well.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Did you ever feel intimidated?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, number one by the size of the company, and number two by by the people that you were suddenly joining in the room?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: 1000%.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I uh there are I there are a ton of stories, but there are a couple that are kind of fun.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: One, so you know, you get there.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm at a startup of about 500 people, I think it was at the time.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you walk into Microsoft's campus, which at the time I would say the employee base was probably 75,000 versus the you know 200, some odd thousand it has globally now.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it's this, it's a campus.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's not an office building, it's a campus.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: So you're first thing you're like, I don't even know who's on first where to go.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm coming up from Silicon Valley, I'm you know, in a little blazer and skirt, which is not how Microsoft employees typically, you know, dressed.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: I remember not really feeling good about how much time it takes to get from point A to point B for various meetings and different buildings, like the whole campus experience for a workplace was foreign to me.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I felt very, very, very small.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: I remember first big day, big meeting.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: I was racing to a meet meeting back in, I think it was building 34 where all the executives were at the time, and and tripped on the uneven sidewalk and you know, smashed open my knee.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, and and I'm not worried about me.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so freaked because I'm trying to make a good impression.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, they're pretty low-key.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: And the good news is they're pretty low-key.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, you can walk in in jeans and a and a sweater, and it's not gonna be a big deal.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: So walking in and, you know, needing a minute to go clean up, it just wasn't a big deal, but I didn't know any of those things at the time.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: And um, but the biggest thing I remember they put me in a bench program, which at the time, again, you kind of don't know really that that's as big a deal, but it's really meant for some top performers.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I look back at the class picture, and this is a long time ago, things have changed, but the profile, I mean, when I was there, where they were like 75% engineers, uh, they were a high percentage of um men, and the women that were there were not that many blondes.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think there was one redhead, one blonde in this group class of 50 people.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, and so you're intimidated by being a minority, you're intimidated by the reputation of the intellectual horsepower that the people at this company have, which proved to be true, um, you know, and this campus that's overwhelming as a young professional, you know.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I yeah, I had many, many, many, many circumstances um where you were just like, you know.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Other than that, you were perfectly comfortable.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so at ease, at ease, you know.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So when, so with all of that, like when did you, I don't know, land on your feet with confidence enough to say, I am somebody that can advise senior leaders?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I have there's there's two meetings that stand out in mind.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: And one of them was um in the first call it 18 months.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things you have to do at any big company like that, right?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: You if you're gonna put anything in the public domain from a marketing perspective.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: And at the time I ran marketing and communications, so I even had sort of, you know, which a budget which by corporate standards was small.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was like$40 million.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: But for a girl coming from a startup, felt like a lot of money.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you had to take it to the CMO of the company and say, like, this is what we want to put in the pub, and this is what we want to run and when and why and how long.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: And and you had to get approved to get on the ad map.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so I prepped for that meeting, not really knowing what I was walking into, as often happens for all these new experiences.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: And the difference for me at the time was uh what we had this hosted meeting service that Microsoft had acquired, which I now believe some of that code even sits inside the Teams product that exists today.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it was a service, right?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: It was a sign up for a service, pay a monthly subscription, get new functionality as you go.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: The business's job is to get a subscriber and then keep a subscriber, get you using, make you sticky, make you we want to keep your your subscription.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: At the time, that was not the big business model at Microsoft, right?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: They're software installs on PC, software off the shelf, software downloads was the way that Microsoft worked.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and everybody else, by the way, that was the thing.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: But the the way of a service model, service subscription-based model was coming.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: And this little startup had already kind of folded into that.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: But you had a business that was making millions and millions of dollars off of the current business model at the time, which is software installs or pre-installs and software off the stall.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I had to go in and explain hey, we need to attract subscribers.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: This is how we're gonna do it, this is who our demographic is, this is what we want to say, this is why we're differentiated.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember one of the really ridiculously smart women around the table, because it was marketing had a lot of uh smart females, said, Well, why can't you wait until you launch your next version?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I I had this distinct moment of like, oh, I got to educate you.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: It is not a next version, like it's a subscription service.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: We add functionality all the time.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's not a, you know, Windows meets Vista meets, you know, it's not a new version.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's a a different business model.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: So there's not some, hey, let's wait six months till we have a launch.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and they're so these are smart people, but it's just not wasn't the world they were operating in.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: So you kind of had to take them through that.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: And the short version of the end of the meeting was I got approval to get onto the ad map, which for our general manager was the job I had to go do, but I was not sure I was, you know, gonna get it done.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember walking out of that meeting going, okay, like I I have successfully sat in front of the CMO of the company, her lieutenants explained my business, my business need, the purpose, the budget, what you know, they had lots of feedback.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: We made adjustments, but we had success in getting the product into the um to the ad rotation so that we could drive our business forward.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I felt like I'd turned a corner of I know how now to influence and get things done with this culture of people that are very analytical, very cross-functional, and very feedback driven.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to be prepared for all of those things.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Still to this day, I remember the room.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: I remember the seating, you know, I'm like, it's one of those meetings that sticks out in your head, like, okay, I did that.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: Now I can keep going doing things, you know.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Tracks to Success is proud to be sponsored by Ahead, a company that's been shaking things up for more than 30 years.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: From premium golf headwear to standout apparel and accessories, Ahead has built its reputation on quality, creativity, fast delivery, and taking care of its customers.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: They've never been content to follow trends.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: They've built a brand by setting them.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you're looking for gear that helps you look your best on and off the golf course, visit aheadusdate.com.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to use the code TTS30.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's TTS30 to receive 30% off your personal order, ahead, premium headwear, apparel, and accessories, and the official headwear of the Tracks to Success Podcast.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Our guest is Janice Kapner.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: She is uh somebody who has really climbed the ladder, and we've talked a little Microsoft.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: I want to talk a little T-Mobile.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um you later joined T Mobile, a big period of transformation, 2013, I believe.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: You were recruited to amplify a CEO's public profile.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is that fair?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yes.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, they were going through a turnaround, right?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, T-Mobile had recently hired John Ledger, the CEO, and recently hired Mike Siever, later CEO at the time, CMO, to turn to take a really dying fourth place wireless provider after the failed ATT acquisition.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: They tried to acquire the company.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: That acquisition was um shot down regulatorily.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: And they got some cash for that and they got some spectrum for that.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so the board went in and said, like, we're gonna bring a new CEO, new management team, time to turn this thing around.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: And as part of that, John, Dave Carey, Mike Sievert, some of the leaders at the time were like, okay, we're gonna really flip this strategy at this place on its ear.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: And to do that, we need a number of things.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: One of the positions was ahead of communications.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: And to their credit, they knew that they wanted to leverage the CEO's profile to help drive this turnaround.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: And they knew that the discipline of communications and public relations was um something that could have a pretty significant return on investment.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like we couldn't compete with 18 team for Rise and Spend at the time, just wasn't reality.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: So you kind of had to find a way to get a disproportionate amount of attention onto the brand to explain that the this business is no longer what you thought it was.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, our network is different, our our offerings are different.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: And and they really believed that the discipline of PR could play a key role if they put it at the table in helping do all those things, including using John's voice at the time to be a bit of a you know antagonist and uh and a provocateer.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so they were recruiting, you know, for all of those things.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know that I had any clue how big it was really going to be when I took the role.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it definitely turned out to, I mean, uh the business strategy they had worked and they definitely drove that thing from that fourth place on up.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you talked about differentiation earlier.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned that word.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's a word I use all the time in my workshops.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's who are you?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you do what you do?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: How do you do what you do?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: How do you do it differently?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: How do you stand out?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: How do you get notice?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you got to make people take notice.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that seems like that really fits here.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: The uncarrier movement um disrupted the entire industry, right?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um what made that story so powerful?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm gonna throw a couple of stats out here.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Wireless industry growth share jumps from 18 to 38 in about three years' time.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you talk about flipping the script, that's big time.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think look, the leaders that hired me were brilliant businessmen and brilliant marketers.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: And they recognized that the industry as a whole had really been stagnant for a long time.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: Look, you have big dominant players in ATT and Verizon.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: You have consumers that are not good, I mean, they'll give up coffee and Starbucks long before they'll give up their cell phone.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: This is not an option.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's even gotten more sticky as the you know time goes on.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but really, I think John's quoted, he was on stage at CES.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: He said something like if aliens from Mars came down and landed on this planet and watched how we treat customers in this sector, they would just not understand it because we sort of, we collectively, the industry sort of took them for granted of like it was more treated like a utility.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: And this management team said, No, no, no, we're not gonna do that anymore.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna actually treat it like more of a product service value add company.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna take away the pain points that these people hate and make and build loyalty and attract new customers because there's actual choice and a lot of people don't know that.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so they had a really smart business plan to go do that and a laundry list of things that customers were unhappy with.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: And we didn't have a moat to protect, right?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: We're fourth place, we don't have much share.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think we had like 33 million customers at the time, and um, and it was a failing business.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: So you're not trying to protect or can't cannibalize, you don't have much to cannibalize.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's a different business today.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's a much bigger remote around your business and a big business to protect in 2026 than it was back in 2013.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so that meant you could take some risks, you could do some free things, you could do some crazy things, and you could totally, to your point, differentiate from the more steady state status quo players.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you're willing to take the risk and make the investment and build out the network, then you could make some noise.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: And then if you're also willing to differentiate yourself by being a CEO who's accessible, who used to go visit the front line on a regular basis, got on social media, talked on social media, went on the news a lot, poked at the other guys a lot.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's not what a typical corporate CEO, let alone corporate CEO in telecom, was doing at that time.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: So that meant differentiation in a pretty big way.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: And look, reporters and influencers in social media love a little conflict.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: So if he's willing to play with taking a shot, then um, you know, they're gonna play along.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: And the the other guys didn't have a big fan base, they were again a necessary need versus like I love my provider.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: So that gave him a lot of leeway to take shots and have people get on board with it.
• 24:51
  unknown: Yeah.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: When I was um I was in Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids, Michigan, and TV, got this opportunity, one of eight when golf channel launched on air.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the first eight.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: So startup from the ground up niche network.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: LPGA joined there at a time when the LPGA was probably at one of its lowest points and a complete transformation of the brand through a dynamic leadership team led by Mike Wan.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there's something about being there at a low point.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you just talked about your number four.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, most people be like, I don't want to be a part of that.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think there's great energy from being a part of that because there's only one place to go from there, and it's build and grow.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Was that what enticed you?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Did you love that every day?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: I did.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: It was it became this perfect blend of startup meets real brand, meaning, you know, I had been startup world for a variety of companies, which meant you did a lot of roll up your sleeves and do whatever needs to be done because you were lean and mean.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so you got to play and be creative because you were trying to punch above your weight class.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then I did a decade at Microsoft, which is an established company.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: You learn about cross-collab and process and a brand that is gonna get attention for right or for wrong.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you do a good thing, you do a bad thing, but you, you know, and you bring those together.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's really what T-Mobile was.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: It was this energizing, like, we have a plan.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'll never forget the interview process with them lasted a while.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and uh, because he was still building his leadership team.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: And one thing struck me in that interview process, and I think this is what tipped me to take the role because I was still looking for alternatives at Microsoft.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's just been, you know, Microsoft does a lot of career rotation, and I was like, okay, I'll I could stay.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: I was working for Chris Capucella, who was later the CMO.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: He's a wonderful, wonderful guy.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so I wasn't like itching to leave.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: I had just hit that decade mark of like, ah, let's be conscious in choices and what we're making kicks and tires.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: But what T-Mobile did through that process is I would go in and I would interview, and you'd always have one or two scheduled, and it was typically with the C-suite or some of their right-hand lieutenants.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: But one thing that Dave Carey, my the guy who hired me, did is we'd be there, I'd do my couple interviews and be like, I'm gonna take you down the hall.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see if the CFO Braxton is available.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it was not scheduled and it was ad hoc, and he'd you know clearly had equity with these guys.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: They'd clear 15 minutes and they would sort of plot me with them as a bit of a meet and greet.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was not planned, right?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: You had a lot of organic meetings.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: And this management team, to a person, understood the plan.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: They understood why they were gonna win, how they were gonna compete.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: And they were so very much on the same page.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: If that had all happened in like one day of a marathon of 12 interviews or something, I'd have been like, okay, maybe y'all prepped.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: But that's not how it happened.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it was very clear.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, gosh, you guys really, you have a plan on how you're gonna go attack this.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a ton of consistency across all these different conversations from different disciplines, HR, uh, legal, uh, the CFO, the CMO.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: It was, and I was like, and they were fired up.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: They were fired up, and they were so they understood the discipline, they thought it could play a key role, they had a plan, they were on the same page, and they were, and that is what tipped me.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: And when I got in, it was true.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's the risk we all take when we take a job.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: You could get in there and find out everything you thought you heard in the interviews was completely bogus, but it wasn't.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: It was very, very true.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: And people were, they were in, you know, sleeves rolled up all in, and that made it fun.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: We had a lot of fun.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: We worked hard, a lot of hours long, you know.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but we had a good time.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: And the you don't get to good do quite the same thing when you reach a level of size, scope, and maturity.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: There's other things that are great about that, you know, once T-Mobile transitioned kind of past that, I'll call it, you know, turnaround, punch above your weight class stage, you get into a different phase.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: But and that was also great, but it wasn't the same kind of in the trenches fun, everybody wears magenta, confetti cannons kind of really celebrate the wins kind of culture.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: In addition to hosting this podcast, Craig leads the Cannes advisory group, empowering companies and individuals to elevate communication and build brand awareness with bold ideas, lasting impact, and his signature green shoe style.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: From company consulting and team workshops to one-on-one coaching and transformational virtual programs, Can Advisory guides people to communicate with greater clarity, confidence, and empathy.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: So whether you're a leader looking to give your team a game-changing one-day experience or an individual who wants to become a speaker and presenter, people remember, visit CanAdvisory.com.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: And when you connect, mention the Tracks to Success podcast to receive a special discount on CanAdvisory Services.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's CanAdvisory.com.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now, back to the interview.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Janice Kapner is my guest on Tracks to Success.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: We met years ago.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still grateful to this day that she had enough courage, guts, conviction to bring me in to speak to her team at Microsoft.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll put that on my resume anytime.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: It was a lot of fun that day.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I always remember it.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: I want to talk about not finding opportunity, although that was a great one, but finding your voice because that's a big part of communication.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And at T-Mobile, that voice was different from everybody else's voice.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: You're the one on the on the line, right?
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Helping everybody figure out what we're gonna say, how we're gonna say it, et cetera, et cetera.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you got a CEO who you probably also had to say, guess what?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: You might not want to hear this, but or I'm gonna tell you you didn't really do that this way, or whatever.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to talk about you finding your voice to be the leader of voice.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Make sense?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, hard.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: That that's you know, um, but once you do, it's it's actually, I would call it one of the most fun parts of the job.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, I think look, John gets credit because he tested me a lot that first 12 months.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: There was a lot of testing to see like, is she gonna have the gumption?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: Is she gonna answer the question?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: Is she just gonna tell me what I want to hear?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, I took people at face value.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: I kept getting told by all the players, like, you your job here is to make sure that we're not drinking our own Kool-Aid, right?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like we it real time to be a reality check.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: Now, how you do that matters, particularly when you're dealing with people that are really smart, um, because they're not gonna take condescension or insults well.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: So, not that that's my style, but some people that's kind of the way they coach, and you got to just know if you're gonna be heard.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, we went through a fair amount of what I'll call sort of trial and error of building trust.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: But once, you know, my process and my, you know, inputs started to resonate, and John and others decided, okay, yeah, like we her instincts are good.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: She gets what the business is trying to do.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: You you have to kind of dip your toe in the water a few times and take the risk of going out there and saying, like, I don't think this is a great idea.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: I had my second day on the job, and this will give you an example of tone.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they said, Can you come join the SLT meeting, which was the CEO staff meeting?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, sure.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't their direct report to him at the time.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, thought it was a hello kind of come sit in as a one-off.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: And um, we sat down, he introduced me.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody's very nice.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't even have a laptop yet, right?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't have equipment or anything.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, Hey, this post just hit, this blog hit.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: There was a little website probably still out there called T-Mobile News, run by a third-party blogger.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: Used to get all the leaks when you know, frontline employees would leak a training memo or a discount memo.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so they always kind of had it, it may not always be accurate.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it was out of date, but they have a lot of news.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so they publish all the time.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: And they had published something, and I wish I could remember what it was, but it was negative.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: It was something that we were doing or price change or something negative.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: And they said, What would you do about this article?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: Should we contact the blogger?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what would you do?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, honestly, I don't even have a laptop.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know what the article is.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: And this is in front of the C-suite staff with the CEO, right?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so you're like, oh my God, it's day two.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know what this is.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and so my boss at the time had his laptop open, he turns it around and puts it in front of me open.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, so you're reading the article.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: Imagine this, right?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: You're in the executive boardroom and you're reading this article that they have deemed to be negative in front of the whole C-suite, watching you read it.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: And then they're you're wait, they're waiting for you to say, what would you do about it as the head of communications on your second day?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, I remember I was a little like, you know, a little getting oval warm in here.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Talking about crisis communication, geez.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I, but I I I will tell you what I liked about it was they asked, you know.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I've worked plenty places where they're like, here's what we want you to go do about it.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: And you're like, okay, if you just want me to do as you say, then you're you need a much more junior person, and you don't want to pay me for that, right?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like you don't want to pay me to just be a service bureau.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: So he and he asked the question and I read it, and I'll never forget sitting there reading it.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I read it twice and I was like, this is so not worth anything.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it was a very, it was a small audience, it was not a big deal, and I didn't know the audience yet.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: You gotta know your your audience, and I didn't know them yet, right?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: I was only on the second day, and I was like, Well, we're just gonna tell them like it is.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, I wouldn't do anything, y'all.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't gonna go anywhere.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: No national outlets are gonna pick this up.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: This is not noteworthy, let it go, you know.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I held my breath, sort of, you know.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: And the CEO sat there for a minute.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody was clearly waiting to see if he was gonna agree or disagree because he had good instincts in this area, and he sat there and he goes, after he made me sweat, goes, I agree, let's not do anything onward.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: And he moved on to the agenda.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: But it was my first test, right?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: So they but but it set to the tone for a couple things.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: He's gonna ask tough questions, but he wants you to give an answer, and so that starts to build your muscle of okay, well, then I'm gonna give you feedback.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I had times where it blew up in my face, don't get me wrong.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I had times where, you know, you got called in and dressed down a little bit of like, this is not how we're gonna do this.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: And but you have to try, at least if you want to have that seat at the table.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I did, I wanted to be an advisor, I wanted to be offering strategic counsel, I wanted to be coaching.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, it got to the point towards the end where I really could tell you where I thought he what I thought his answer was gonna be before he gave it.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I could pen something from him and he wouldn't have a lot of feedback on it.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we really kind of mind melded after a while.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and I really it was my favorite part of the job.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then I started giving feedback to all of the C-suite.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they'd be like, oh, so-and-so's gonna do a big keynote, go help them.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, can you help this person prep for earnings?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I far enjoyed that.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, more than the, hey, can you edit these three documents?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's play crisis communications for you.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on the hot seat.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna do a rapid fire, four questions.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my 15-second answers, see if you can do it.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, is it better to communicate quickly or wait until you have every answer?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: I believe in 90% of the time, quickly.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: Even if quickly is to say that you're still doing due diligence on what exactly is happening, because no news, they make up their own story.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: How do you say we don't know yet without losing people's confidence?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, hopefully you can articulate a little of what you do know and what you're doing about it, even if you're still in the it's under investigation mode, had to do it.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the fun place to be, but it's a lot better than silence.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: What about your employees?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: What do they need to hear during uncertain times in a corporation or a business?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you got to talk to them.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm telling you, I think mistake number one made by a lot of senior people, it's a difficult time.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: We'll catch them up when we're ready.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: And then they just spin.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you have to talk to them, even if it's to tell them in a month I'm gonna have better answers for you.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: Here's why.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: All right, you just took away one of my questions.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to pivot and come up with a fourth one on my own.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: What should a company have in place before a crisis ever arises?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: You have to do tabletop exercises.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: You need to pick six topics that are likely to your business and build out a three-page plan, phone tree, decision making.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: What are you going to do if your network goes down, if you're cyber breached, if an employee is fired at the C-suite, I don't care what it is, and run the table, do the exercise, and then put you can put it on a shelf and refresh it every three to six months so that when the real thing happens, you pull it off and you adjust, but you have a starting point.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: You have to pretend that it's going to happen, not hope that you'll figure it out when it does.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: You crushed it.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Congratulations.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: Looking for a guest speaker for your next event or annual conference, Craig brings an inspiring and empowering message your audience won't soon forget.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: Visit Craigcanspeak.com to learn more and hear what audiences are saying about the green shoe experience making an impact at events across the country.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's Craigcanspeak.com.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: And when you connect, mention the Tracks to Success podcast to receive a special discount on your event with Craig.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Now, back to the show.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Janice Kapner is my guest on Tracks to Success.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: We're starting to wind this thing down.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: I have learned um a couple of things in this, but one of them is amazing storytelling and how valuable that is to a person in being able to bring their career to life and their experiences in an organization.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I want you to help some people that might be going to a job interview and what they need to communicate a little bit.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a fun exercise.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, oftentimes, here, here's my piece of paper.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: I got all these great things.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I used to do an exercise where I'd have people go, that's great.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to back up 10 feet.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now I want you to present it to me.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: And people will be like, oh, and I'm like, if you can't bring it to life, then I can't have you on my communications team.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what do people need to be able to communicate about themselves to be able to climb the ladder?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I would say there's there's a couple of things, but the before they can communicate anything about themselves, they need to understand who they're talking to and what they're looking for.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that, you know, it's the the kitschy phrases know your audience.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: But more importantly, like if you're in an interview, find out, even if that's how you start your interview, tell me what you're looking for, what's the most because you have to adapt your experience or your stories or your anecdotes to be relative to the person that you're speaking to.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: If you kind of run a playbook of like, here's who I am and why I'm great, and then you find out that what they really want to know is if you've had to navigate a big transformation anymore, they may or may not get to that question.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: But if you ask them, usually most interviewers, if you say, like, what is the most important thing for you in this hiring exercise?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: And then you have to be able to on the fly adapt to be relevant to your audience.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's relevant in a everyday workforce.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you don't know the business that you're working on and you don't know, hey, I'm talking to the head of sales and I know what headwinds he's facing right now, and I'm trying to propose to him that he do ABC for a launch or he do this.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: Boy, like if I don't have a clue what's going on in his world, why do I have any credibility with that individual?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to know who you're talking to and what's driving them.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: What are they hiring or what are they trying to accomplish with the business?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: And then adapt your personal either experiences or skills or whatever it is that you're kind of trying to communicate to that audience.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then the second thing I would say is everybody needs to remember that how you receive a story or how I receive a story is not necessarily going to be the same.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you talk to, I used to tell people when I would do classes on content development for a speech or or for a panel discussion, that you have kind of two sides of the brain in the world, the creative and the analytical.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: And some of us, like I actually have done some of the tests, I'm kind of like 50-50 right down the middle.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: I like some data and some stats and some facts to, and then I like to be pulled in with an interesting story that can capture my imagination.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: Some people are really hard to one side or the other.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: So when you build a story, and you know this from the work that you do, if you're going to get up on stage, well, you better have a combination of creativity as well as either analytics or stats because you don't know who you're talking to and you don't know what sometimes a really interesting stat will pull that person in and they're like hooked on the story.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: For other people, it's the tone setting of you know, the breeze and the day and the color of the sky that you're starting, and that's gonna pull them.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: You can't be sure when you're talking to a large room.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: So you better use a little bit of both.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: The same applies, I think, in the workforce.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: You need to know who you're talking to and what they need or don't need, but recognize that you can't be sure exactly until you've worked with them a while.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: And then I think you get to know people and you can kind of hone in on, like, oh, hey, for this presentation, I got to bring some stats to the table or it's not gonna make it past slide one.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: One of my biggest mentors in college, a professor, hall of fame professor, uh, God rest his soul.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: He used to tell us, you can't preach to anybody unless you can get them into the church.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: I never forgot it.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: You got to get people to lean in.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I also am a big believer that it's not just information, it's entertainment.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you've got to find a way.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can't be stats driven, stories travel.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, stats, stats are stats, numbers are numbers, stories travel, you got to be able to do it.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: So your story has changed, you've pivoted, you've gotten out of the corporate race, you die decided to change uh direction.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: I've got Can Advisory Group, you've got Kapner Perspectives Group.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: I like Perspectives Group.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: That means you're probably coaching, listening, analyzing, um, all that sort of good stuff.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: How different does it feel to have your own name on this thing now?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's really cool.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's it's you know, I've only been doing about seven months on uh under my own, you know, shingle, as they say.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_03: And um, it's been such a learning experience, right?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's interesting, all the things you have to do to stand up your own LLC.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: And then when you have to put your first proposal together, get your first client, all those things have been um really cool firsts.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: But what I love about it more than anything is that I'm doing the part of the corporate job that I love the most.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the budget management, it's not the personnel management, it's the like, hey, I had a I had a person who um one of my current clients used to the leader was at T Mobile for a stint, and that's how we met.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: And he reached out after he took his new position and he said, Hey, is this true?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like, are you really doing consulting?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_03: We could use some help.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, we got on the phone and the things that he and his management team are seeking input.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: On are the things that A, I did with him at you know T Mobile.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so he had firsthand experience and he was like, I I want your input.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's nice to be not trying to convince somebody that you you can help them, right?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: In the consulting world, nobody's gonna pay you if they haven't decided that you know you're gonna add some value to them.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: And um and you're just able to be really honest and be like, I think you got to consider this or you shouldn't consider that, and um and offer to do more and offer to help, or you know, just give them the advice and sort of let them run and do.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: And everything, every situation is a little bit different.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: You learn about new businesses, um, but you know, I'm not trying to manage a team and um and manage against budgets for the PL and that kind of administrative overhead.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: That when you get to the C-suite, there's a lot of time spent doing that versus, you know, as much time as you'd like to be doing the the heart of the discipline.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm enjoying it greatly.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's been it, I didn't expect it to necessarily take off this fast.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: I had a couple people tell me, you know, it'll come, it'll just come.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, yeah, we'll see.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, and it has.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: And um, but I I like it.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't sure if I was gonna love it or not, but so far, so good.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Good for you.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, two questions before we head out of here.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: The first one, I I have to, when I'm talking to a communications expert, we got to talk about AI.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just a quick thought on this thing, because my big thing with AI is there better be a whole lot of I in your AI.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can use it, I use it, but it's got to be my voice.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's gotta be, I mean, I'm gonna tweak it, massage it, I'm gonna change everything.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's got to be me.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what is your advice to people about how they use it for clear communication?
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because clear communication, clarity, the message, the whole thing is more valuable than it ever has been.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: I always like to say uh there are a lot of people talking, very few people have something to say.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's a a great turtophrase because the reality is look the first thing on AI is you better learn it, right?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't care who you are, what stage you are professionally, you have to get familiar with it.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to learn how to build an LLC, you don't have, I mean, uh, an LLM, you don't have to build a model, you don't have to make your own apps and your um, you know, your own uh tools, but you can't just kind of do the the you know AI.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: And um, because I really do believe judgment and perspective and experience are gonna continue to be critical to decision making for senior leaders, no matter how effective the AI tools are.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: But the second thing I would say is it can really be helpful.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it can be very helpful.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a big I hate writing the first draft of a thing.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's sort of my, but once I get going, then you know I'm sort of all into my communications writing zone.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so AI can be really helpful for that first draft.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: But to me, that's what it is.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's a first draft, and then I'm gonna go do my thing.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_03: And even then, it's garbage in, garbage out.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: You have to tell it, hey, I think we should build a plan that does the following 20 things, and I want to add this.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't, I don't let it build the plan.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: I have my own experiences and my own inputs, and then I'll say, and then it'll kind of put it all together in a document that you rarely sounds anything like me.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then to your point, I'm I'm kind of all over it.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: Now, that's a communications person's sort of tendency.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I don't care if people don't want to edit, but you do have to recognize it as your own.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're gonna use it to write and you're not gonna read and shred it and make sure that it's really what you intend to either write or say or create, then you're gonna live with the consequences because that you become replaceable very quickly because anybody can do that.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: Anybody can go type it into Chat GTP and get the same thing because you're there's no, there's no nuance, there's no experience, there's no, you know, personal recommendations.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a machine.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: And by the way, it could be a really smart machine, but it doesn't know what it doesn't know.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, we always go back to the um used to say the same thing about hiring a great agency, garbage in, garbage out.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't ramp that agency on what's going on in your business and they don't have a clue that this is a no-fly zone over here, you can't touch this, or our business can't afford to cannibalize that, then they're gonna come back with ideas that then you get frustrated because you're like, this is not okay.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, how would they know?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, AI is not terribly dissimilar.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be, it's already making an impact.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be amazing.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: I don't quite know where it'll all, you know, net out.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I have concerns, you know, I think that that uh managing something that's gonna be this smart is something that the people building it have some work to do from a responsibility perspective, particularly if you look at some of the escape experiences that have hit headlines recently.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_03: But but boy, as a professional, you know, learn it and build it into your portfolio as part of how you get things done faster and more effectively.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_03: But don't abandon your own role in that or just expect to be very replaceable.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Here, here.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Last thing your opportunity to deliver a message that people will remember.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, speaking of AI, we down the line, when we're not here, AI could tell people what our story was.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not really the best way to do it.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: We have to be authentic and tell our own story.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: We are the authors of our own story.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: People have to take um confidence and strength to be able to go their own direction.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, what advice would you give somebody, given the career that you've had, the amazing career that you've had in communications, to author their best story?
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I always say to people that you are the CEO of your own career.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, people say, I have no aspiration to be the CEO.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, but you are your CEO of your career, whether that is a big one or a small one, or your own business, or a C-suite aspiration, or middle management where you can reach a lot of people and still, you know, have a light load to make sure you spend plenty of time at home.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_03: There's no wrong answer, but you are the CEO of your own career.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you don't know what that means, it, you know, that's okay.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know what I meant what that meant or where my career was going to go.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_03: But you do have to be open to trying things that on paper initially may not be super appealing.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: I had jobs where they're like, we want you to move here and do this.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, okay, I'll try it, but it's a short-term thing.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then it's played a role in my advancement versus some straight line up, which I didn't have, and most people don't.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's pretty rare.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think you have to be open to experimentation.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_03: You have to take ownership.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: You have to take ownership.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: You can't tell your own story if your own story is really about blaming other people for what did or didn't happen to you.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: Bad things happen to people professionally.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: Positions get eliminated, jobs go away, somebody gets promoted over you.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: You betcha.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: But bad things happen to CEOs too.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the market tanks, somebody launches something that's more competitive than your product, they undercut your price point, you miss on earnings.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_03: What are you going to do about it?
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_03: Is really where you have to go.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: And when you think about it in that way, then your story becomes who you are and how you're navigating the ups and the downs because there's big wins that get you into great big jobs, and then there's things that happen, and you're like, this is not what I had planned.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: And you're allowed to be super frustrated and go home and be mad and eat a pint of ice cream.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm not saying don't give yourself a break, give yourself grace.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: But then you go, okay, you got to come back and say, now, but I own this.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's my life, my career, my professional future, my story.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: What am I going to do about it?
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_03: Where am I going to take it?
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: And then how do I talk about that as you know, as it evolves?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I think once you have kind of that ownership and recognize that you can't, you can't make things happen.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you can pull the ripcord and say, I'm done.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: My ownership as a CEO is that I've been in this position too long and I'm not getting recognized.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: That's okay too.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: I get people that kind of do the victim thing and I'm like, hey, walk away.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_03: You own that decision and you have to decide when that is right.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, we have generations of people that are um adapting to that philosophy where for a while it was sort of like on management to take care of me.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's on management to recognize you as an asset and um and make sure that they treat you accordingly if they want to keep you.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_03: But then if they don't, that's on you to say, like, what?
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: What I will go, even if it takes a couple hits, I have to try a couple jobs.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna go find a place that's gonna be like having you at the table, it makes a big difference.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: And we want you here.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you were a big asset to this program.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I had a feeling the minute I reached out.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad I had you.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Janice, for reconnecting and for being on this.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, thanks for having me.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: It was really great.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: Fun, a fun conversation.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: So definitely stay in touch.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: I can't wait to see how this all lands and congrats on all the things that you're doing.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: My goodness, it's uh you're a busy man.
• 53:03
  unknown: Appreciate it.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: One last segment I call Getting Ahead, which is focused on you and your own tracks to success.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's brought to you by Ahead, the finest in headwear and the official headwear of the Tracks to Success podcast.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: Available at AheadUSAShop.com.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: For listeners of this show, ahead is giving one of its biggest discounts ever.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Visit aheadUSAShop.com now and use the code TTS30.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's TTS30 and receive not 20% off your purchase, but 30% ahead.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: They don't follow the trends for more than 30 years.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: They've been steady, though.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is time for getting ahead.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoyed Janice's story.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: She's got some real energy and a great career.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: Microsoft, T-Mobile, the uncarrier transformation.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: What a great story.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: Countless moments when a leader, a team, or an entire organization needed to know what to say and how to say it.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the most important lessons that I heard from her career in our conversation is that great communication doesn't begin with having the perfect words or the perfect message.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: It begins with having the courage to be direct and honest.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: Notice I didn't say critical.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: Honest is about what's happening, honest about what people need to hear, and honest enough to tell a leader something they might not want to hear.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: That means that leaders can't wait until the pressure arrives to decide what they stand for.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: They need clarity before crisis.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: And people around them were willing to speak the truth before a difficult decision is actually made.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: So here's my question, here's my thought.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: Do the people around you feel safe enough to tell you what you need to hear?
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because the strongest leader in the room isn't always the person with the fastest answer, somebody who jumps right in.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: It may be the person that's willing to sit back for a minute, listen, pause, and able to change direction when the truth actually requires it.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: So do this align with your people, but welcome honesty.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's how you communicate through pressure.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's how you lead through change.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that is how you get ahead.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do that, your tracks to success will be a whole lot easier.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: Until we meet next time, I'm Craig Cann.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget to subscribe for more great interviews and Craig's insights on reaching your highest personal and professional summit.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: Listen to Tracks to Success on all the top podcast platforms.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_02: Watch it on the Craig Cannes YouTube channel and visit CraigCanspeak.com to learn more about Craig as your next speaker.