Latest / WTF! Women Talk Finance / EP 08: The Importance Of Friendship In Life - PART 1

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EP 08: The Importance Of Friendship In Life - PART 1 · WTF! Women Talk Finance

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Jackie.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Kid.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: And this is WTF.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Grab your coffee, wine, water bottle, emotional support snack, no judgment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: And let's get into it.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to WTF.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: This time, women talk frogs.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: Just kidding.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Women talk fine finance, friendship, and eating the frog.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: And we have Ellen Long back with us.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm really excited for this conversation today.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: This was actually a bonus episode, a bonus podcast because I've been reading your friendship letters on Fridays.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: We talked about it in the last episode, and I kind of take them as like a little bit of a challenge.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: I love this.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not somebody who loves eating a frog.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: And for those who don't know, eating a frog is having the conversation that you don't want to have.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes I read your letters, and I don't remember which one in particular it was.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: And saying the things that maybe have gone unsaid, at least on your side.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like I don't know what's being unsaid on the other side, but I know what I haven't said, right?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so a few things that I've done recently, because of your because of your letters, one, I reached out to a friend I probably haven't spoken to in about 10 years.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: Whoa.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, no big falling out or anything just kind of grew apart.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: And she I saw online she was going through a really hard time.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so I just reached out and I don't I think I even said in there, like, I have no expectation of you responding to me.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's not your you don't owe me a response.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: But I want to tell you I'm thinking of you, and I am really I just kind of wanted to acknowledge, I think I saw on her Instagram a lot of people were trying to say very specific the kind of typical things when somebody's going through a rough time.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: It'll get better, and this too shall pass you know, those things.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I just want to tell you that this right now really forking sucks.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm so sorry, and that just I was trying to come up with something better to say, and the reality is the best thing I can come up with is this is terrible, and I'm thinking of y'all.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: She sent me a really nice message back, which was not expected.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I just I kind of every week try to send her a little nugget and I don't expect a response, and sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: She doesn't owe me anything.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: I certainly can't be her priority, but I can show up in a way that I haven't the last 10 years.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I love that.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_05: It's hey, I see you.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_05: I think that's one thing that we all want, right?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_05: Someone to actually see us, and so often, especially when hard times are happening, people say the thing that they hope is true, even though it's not, which is, oh, I really hope that you're gonna learn something from this experience.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_05: I really hope that you feel better.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_05: I really hope it's like all of these things because we're hoping that it gets better when really the person just wants you to sit with them in that thing and actually see what's true for them.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_05: One of the best ways I think to do this is I had a friend who um came to me and said, Hey, I know you're going through a really hard time.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_05: Will you tell me your experience of this?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_05: And I remember thinking, that is such an intelligent question.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_05: Like, hey, I know what everyone else is probably telling you about this situation, but can you tell me how you're experiencing it?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_05: What is your perspective on it?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_05: I'd love to hear what you have to say.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_05: And the coolest part was we had booked a half an hour catch-up call.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_05: And I was like, hey, it's actually a lot.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do it in 30 minutes.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_05: And she's like, girl, I booked two hours.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_05: I knew you, I knew you couldn't do it in a half an hour.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_05: I actually took off the whole afternoon for this because I think this is such a monumental, pivotal part of your life that I want to be there and understand what your perspective is like from it.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_05: So I think we talk a lot about like holding space for people and like what does holding space even mean?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_05: Like I think that word, I think that concept doesn't actually mean anything.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's like it's so broadly applied, and it's so it's gotten so like overused and so cliche.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry to interrupt you.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: And like putting it on like an Instagram post in like a comment, are you really holding space?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_05: Like, well, I'm saying like I don't even know what that means.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_05: Like, what does that mean to hold space for someone?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_05: And everyone has a different idea of what it looks like.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_05: And I think for me, it's actually you're actually creating space.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_05: I think what you actually do is you create a room.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_05: This is how I think about it.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_05: So I think about it like if you're coming to me, we're actually creating a room together.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_05: And in this room, you can be as honest as you need to be, you can be as real as you need to be, and you we're creating the space together.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_05: So if I'm holding space for you, what I'm actually doing is I'm actually we're actually holding up two paintings, is what we're doing.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_05: You're holding up your painting of your life, and I'm actually putting mine down.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_05: So I walk into the room that we've created for you, and I take my life painting and the way that I see the world and my perspectives and all of those things, and I actually put it down, and I come over to your side, and you're holding this painting, and we both look at it.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_05: And to me, creating that space is I'm looking at your painting and I'm like, hey, why'd you use those that brushstroke?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_05: Why like there's so many reds in this painting?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_05: Like, tell me about those reds.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_05: It's actually how do you see your life?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_05: How did how are you experiencing this whole thing?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_05: Because I think the mistake that we make is we think that this fact happened.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_05: Like you had foot surgery.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_05: That is a fact of life, right?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_05: And so then we take our painting and we look at your foot surgery through our painting, through our lens, through what it would mean for us.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_05: If I had foot surgery, I would be devastated because I like to train Tai Chi swords, and that would be so hard for me.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_05: And then all of a sudden I'm thinking about your experience, but really it's my experience of the thing that happened to you, which hasn't happened to me.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Such a great metaphor.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's beautiful and really well said.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I love the idea of coming in, putting your painting aside, and stepping over to that person's painting and saying, let's look at what's here.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: What does this feel like?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Also, like in that room, whatever you need in this minute is okay.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's silence, maybe it's a wail, maybe it's a good cry, whatever it is.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna scare me away.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here for it.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that that to me is part of like holding space or creating a safe container or just being there, being present.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it kind of goes back to like the five love languages, right?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: We show up sometimes for people with how we want to be loved or how we need to be loved, but it may not match what they need.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: So really being intentional about pivoting and being like, I'm so sorry.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm putting me on you right now.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you need?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_05: But I do think your best friends, like your best friends know you really well.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_05: So, what I really love is like if I have a really close friend, like I had a um, my best friend, Audrey, I literally called her and I said, I don't know how to, I don't know how I even think about this.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_05: Can you tell me how I think about this?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_05: And she was like, Well, this is what I know about you.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_05: This is who you are, this is what's been true for 15 years.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_05: Does that resonate at all?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, Oh my gosh, yes.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_05: Like sometimes we need our close friends to say, I don't even know how to experience this.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_05: Can you help, like, can you walk me through and hold?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_05: I call it holding the truth and the tension.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_05: So in every hard moment, there's two sides and there's tension on both sides.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_05: And the easiest thing to do is let go of one side.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_05: So when you even talk about like eating the frog, right?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's like if we have an argument or something happened and we're in the middle of it, there's truth in your side and there's truth in my side.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_05: And the only way that we're gonna make it through is if I acknowledge there's truth in the tension here.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_05: It may be more on your side or more on my side, but like we have to understand and acknowledge that your perspective matters and my perspective matters, and the way that I experienced it and the way that you experienced it.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_05: There is truth to both sides.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_05: And so I think so much of friendship is how do I hold the truth and the tension?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_05: Like, how do I hold one of my best friends?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_05: She uh was engaged and the guy cheated on her.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_05: And we like, I'm talking, we had already bought our prize maids dresses, like it was a whole thing.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_05: It was crazy.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_05: So we're all like rallying, you know, we're going, hey, you're like, you don't deserve, he doesn't deserve you, and we're saying all the things.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_05: Well, nine months later, she takes me out to brunch and she's like, hey, like we got back together.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_05: And I was like, okay, all right, like talk me through it.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_05: And so we talk through it, and I'm like, okay, I'm really happy for you.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_05: And she was and she was so thankful.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_05: And she said to me, How can you do that?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_05: Because there are so many people who tell me I'm making the worst decision of my life and like all this stuff.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_05: And I remember saying to her, There's pain on both sides, there's truth and intention here, which is you love him.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_05: And if you're not with him, that's a sad reality.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_05: You might end up single, you might not find someone.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_05: Like, this is a hard road that you're going down to not be with the person that you love.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_05: And also, you could be married and end up with him, and he cheats on you, and it's a whole thing again.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I remember saying to her, but either way, like, I'm here.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_05: Friendship is no matter, I'm not making the decision for you.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_05: Like, we don't get to make decisions in our friends' lives for them, but we love to do that.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_05: We're like, you should do this and you should do that.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_05: And like the truth in the tension was this is a hard decision to make either way.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Candace, you're really big on that.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've said before, we don't should people.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really big on that.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't should on people.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't should, she doesn't should not.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: I try.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: I I should say, I should say, I really try hard not to should on people, and I really try to acknowledge when I have should on people.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of times that's a frog I have to eat, is having that conversation with somebody and saying, like, I put expectations on you or I should, I, I, I should've you.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's such an interesting.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's a lot of layers to this, Ellen, because a lot of times relations fall apart because of a traumatic situation.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: A loss, a divorce, a relations, things like that.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: Friendships fall apart over those things, even for people not necessarily involved, but there's times where friends don't know how to show up and it can cause more heartache.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so still showing up and still still being there.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's the layer of like not putting your expectations or how you would handle it or how you would manage your life on that other person.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I think there's times where you just really I'll go with that.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean go ahead.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's we're we're adults.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do despite anybody else's advice.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna do things on the timeline, I'm ready.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love hearing what my friends think, but at the end of the day, like we're all going to do what we're going to do.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And to be a good friend, you can just show up and it's like whatever you decision you that you're making or you want to make, if you're a yes on in this example, if you're a yes to this relationship today, I'm a yes with you because I support you as my friend.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I love you as my friend.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I trust that you're capable of making your own decisions.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a yes today, I'm a yes today.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a no tomorrow, I can go no with you because I support you.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you're a yes again the next day, I'm back to yes, because again, I just support you as a friend.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I can give unsolicited opinions, unsolicited advice, or solicited advice.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, I'm gonna love you the way you're showing up in your own situation.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_05: See, this is to me back to the levels though.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_05: So I actually do take my friends' advice.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_05: Like my level fours and fives, they're in my life because I respect them, I admire them, and I want to know what they think about my life.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_05: If I don't respect you or admire you, or want to know what you think about certain things in my life, well, then you're not a four or five.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_05: And then we have a totally different relationship.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I actually don't care as much what you think because you haven't earned the trust and the respect and the admiration for me to actually give you that.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_05: But I would say for my friends, no.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_05: Like, I want to know what they think.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_05: I want to come to them and say, like, hey, uh, give me your advice.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_05: I might not take it.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_05: That's my, you know, I'm an independent.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I don't have to take your advice, but I do think it we don't use our friends enough, I think.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_05: Why would you not?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_05: I consider my friends like my board of advice board of directors of life, you know?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_05: And I also think about who's the best friend for this?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_05: I actually view them like a board of directors.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_05: Look, I'm not gonna go to my friend who is um, you know, I mean, like, I'm not gonna go to my friend Jackie and ask her advice about trying to think of something.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_05: You're so multi-talented.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_05: This is actually hard.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my gosh.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: She's like threat, but like deep sea.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Swords.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like this girl knows nothing about swords.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be like, swing it hard.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: The sharp side.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_05: But I I actually think about that.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_05: If I have a difficult decision to make, I think about who's the best person that can give me the best advice about that, that is one of my close friends that knows me really well.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_05: I don't have to explain who I am or what I'm about or all of those things.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_05: It's like who in my level fours and fives had the best people to get this advice from because I actually do want to use my friends' advice because my friends are brilliant and they care about me and they want what's best for me.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_05: So I think we don't ask our friends for advice enough.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I think they should be an important voice in your life if you do consider them really important.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_05: So it's actually funny because yeah, I am like, no, give me your advice.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_05: You're you're here in the inner circle because I care about your thoughts and opinions.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_05: So you better step up and say it now.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: When you deal with like relationship advice, I steer so clear, even with my absolute ethist friendships.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: I slip up sometimes, but for the most part, I try to steer really like neutral because, like you said, at the end of the day, I want them to know I'm like I'm for them 100%, like whether they make the choice that I would make or not.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm I'm their team, babe.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_05: Well, that to me is different, right?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_05: So that's you telling them what you think that they should do.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_05: I try to think about relationship advice like, hey, you're a fish in the fishbowl, and I'm outside the fishbowl.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_05: So if I can give you a perspective where you can see clearer, that's what I feel like I'm here for.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_05: Not to make the decisions, but to actually help you work through and get clarity in what's the truth of the matter.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm more into like clarity searching and truth searching than I am on what I think the final answer should be.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe giving different perspectives.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or just things to think about, things to consider.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_05: Well, and that was the thing with my friend was we sat down and for brunch, we basically just went through the two paths.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_05: And by the end of the conversation, and she's like, hey, this is the path I'm taking.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_05: And I remember saying to her, Well, I have nothing else to add because you've thought through everything.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_05: So if you've thought through everything and you're making this very clear-headed, responsible decision, then my job as your friend is done.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_05: Then I'm just supporting you in whatever you're doing.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_05: But I feel like if you're one of my close friends and you have a relationship problem, my job is just to help you see.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_05: And and if it's like, no, I see, I know exactly what I'm doing.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, okay, great.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: You can have a board, investors, advisors, and still have nobody you can actually talk to about what is really going on.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: That is not unusual.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: That is the founder reality.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we step in right there.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tom Powell, and at the founder's office, we're proud to sponsor Women Talk Finance.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Let's jump back to eating the frog.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then like repairing friendships, because as in our little break during our commercial break, Ellen and I talked about like friendships that have blown up and friendship breakups and like deselecting your friends.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I was going.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of where I was going with.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so, because I've I haven't had this, but I've had a couple friends of mine who their friendships have blown up.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm surprised it's like a lot of political tension or social tensions, like exterior things that they aren't able to navigate as a friendship on this path forward.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like to me, that's like I'm talking some of them like 20 plus year friendships, 30 year friendships that are now done.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: How do you I don't think that those are worth throwing out to me to me.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: I can't live in those, but there's something there that you had.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: How do you can you reignite that friendship?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: How do you eat that frog?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: How do you be the first one?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I I do have an example again from your inspiration.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: I've been, it's not really a friendship, but I'm like eating a big frog.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: And Ellen, you've been re with me on it for like four months now.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: You just didn't know.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um but how does somebody go about and maybe it's not any of those issues, but maybe it was an internal challenge.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: How does somebody eat a frog with a friend and see if there's anything even salvageable there?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_05: I think, first of all, how important is it to you?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_05: How important is that person to you?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_05: Because I do think there are some things that happen where, oh, I've been so disrespected that I don't want to come back to this friendship.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_05: I've had that happen a couple of times where I felt like, oh, the things that are core to what I believe a true friend is about, if if something happens that shows me that that person doesn't have the same framework for that, and I feel disrespected, like the people who say, no, this is what you should do, you're wrong, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, those aren't my level four and level five friends.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_05: So to me, it's like, oh, did the blow show you that this person shouldn't have been in your inner circle?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_05: Or did something happen and that friendship is still really important to you and it's worth going after and fixing?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_05: And I know that sounds harsh, but it's like, what do I want this friendship to be?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_05: Do I want this friend to be in my future?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_05: And so if the answer is yes, I want this friend to be in my future, then I think you go back to the core.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_05: What is our friendship even about?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_05: You're never going to agree on everything with your friend.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_05: That is impossible.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_05: So it's like, are there things that are that important to you that you cannot have a friend with if they don't agree 100% on those things?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, maybe there are.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_05: Like I look, I've realized that you're gonna start seeing themes in your close friends.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_05: What I have realized is there are themes in your fours and fives.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_05: All my fours and fives have the same correct.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_05: All my fours and fives have the same themes running through them.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_05: And so what's what I've realized is it's easier for me to find a close friend because I know what I'm looking for.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_05: Like I blue eyes.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_05: I love blue eyes.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, if you have blue eyes, then you're automatically no.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_05: No, I love people that are adventurers that go travel the world that have, and the reason why I realized I love it is because they have a different, they have a world perspective.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_05: So when I go to them and talk about things, they're not just it's not one perspective.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_05: They're actually, it's they've seen the world, they've seen different cultures, they've been a part of different stratas of income.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_05: So it's like I love the adventures that I've seen the world.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_05: I love people that treat everyone exactly the same.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_05: I love all my close fours and fives.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_05: I can take them, and this is how I know I have a really close friend.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_05: I can take them anywhere.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_05: If I can take them to the Ritz Carlton and I can take them to the slums of South Africa, I know that's a person that I'm gonna love.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_05: I they have to, they have to be the kind of people where I feel so confident and that I could bring them anywhere and they'd be amazing because they're just amazing people across the board and they're gonna treat everyone with respect and admiration and be wonderful people.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_05: So that's really important to me.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_05: So what I'm saying is like, if there are things that I don't see in a person, it's like, oh, maybe they shouldn't have been my really close friend and maybe I should take a step back because the things that are super important to me aren't a part of that friendship.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_05: Does that make sense?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_05: So to me, it's like, what do I want out of this friendship?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I had to eat a really big one because.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: Because one of my best friends, uh her boyfriend and I got into this like really big argument over nothing.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_05: It was really stupid.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, it was like the dumbest thing ever.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_05: But I got really mad because he said things, I said things, and I was like, you know what, forget it.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_05: So I leave and I'm telling my friend Jenna about this whole scenario.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_05: We're paddleboarding on the intercoastal, you know.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_05: She's like, Ellen, how important is this friendship to you?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like, it's one of my most important relationships of my life.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_05: And she goes, Okay, well, this is what you're gonna do.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_05: You're gonna send that man an apology letter.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_05: I said, I will not.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_05: And she's like, You're gonna buy him some bourbon glasses.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_05: You're gonna send him a little note about how you were an ass.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_05: Because here's what's he, she's like, You have two paths here.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, you're either going to put your friend in the middle, which I have very great friends.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_05: She's like, I'm not in the middle, you two are adults.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_05: My boyfriend, you adults.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_05: You guys can figure it out.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not gonna be in the middle of it.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_05: I love you both.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_05: Figure it out.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_05: So she's like, Not everybody's looking for.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_04: I have to say.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_05: Oh.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, my yeah.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_05: She was like, no, you guys figured out I'm not in the middle of this.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_05: So then I leave.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_05: Jenna's like, look, you have two paths.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_05: Either the boyfriend hates you, he's probably gonna end up her husband, which means you have a the closest relationship in her life.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_05: You guys are gonna be fighting for the rest of her life.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_05: That's what you want.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_05: You want her to, you're gonna make her pick between the boyfriend and her best friend.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_05: She's like, This is stupid.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_05: You're gonna, and he probably is not going to eat the frog.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_05: Let's be honest, because you hurt his pride.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_05: I did.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_05: I did hurt his pride, okay?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_05: She's like, you hurt the man's pride.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_05: So if this relationship matters to you, you're going to ask for forgiveness and you're gonna send him a gift.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_05: And the crazy part is uh he never mentioned it.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_05: We never talked about it.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_05: I just sent him the glasses, sent him a note, and the next time I came over, it was like nothing that ever happened.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I needed to hear.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: I've been writing this note for like months, and that's what I need.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'm writing a note.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_04: And the hilarious part is like we celebrated.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_05: We collaborate, they're now married.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_05: He's like the best.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_05: We're actually, he and I are actually really great friends.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_05: He'll call me and be like, hey, since we're the most important people in her life, we need to be on the same page for this decision.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_05: Are we on the same page?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: Steven Alliance.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_05: Like love that.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_05: We threw we helped throw her 40th birthday party together.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_05: Like, he's I love him.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_05: He's one of my favorite people.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_05: But it's so, but again, it's that moment of what do I care more about?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_05: Do I care more about the fact that he said some mean things to me, or do I care about my best friendship that I hope is going to be with me for 20 years?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's the do I care about being right or do I care about being effective?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's how I tend to, I don't think of it in the moment.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: That brilliant idea always comes to me well after I've done some damage, but later it comes to me and it's like you probably need to eat a frog because in this instance it's more important that you mend this than you hold your footing in being right.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: Is there a time, is there a length of time that you think it's too late to mend?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking I know people who blew up relationships, meaningful relationships, and it's been a couple years.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_05: My question would be do you still think about it?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_05: Do you still think about it?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_05: Do you still miss this person?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_05: Do you still want them back in your life?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_05: If you do, then roll the dice.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_05: What's the worst that happens?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_05: You're already at the worst, which is you don't talk anymore.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: How do you start a eat the frog letter?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_05: I love a letter.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_05: I love a letter.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's a letter.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_05: I think you write a physical letter.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think you do a text message.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think you do a voice note.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_05: There's something about writing a letter that lets people and I think you say, I miss you.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_05: I would start with that.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_05: Hey, I miss you.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_05: And here's me the frog of these are the things that I messed up on.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_05: And hey, I care more about this relationship than I care about what we fought about.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_05: And I would love to have an opportunity to win your trust back.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: I love that opening line.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it'd be really effective.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I just a lot of what we talk about on this podcast is like normalizing conversations, normalizing like women talking about finance for one thing.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because not a lot of women do.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we're like normalizing that.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, and in our last episode with you, Ellen, we're normalizing like how to be a better friend, how to repair relationships.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Two of my dearest friends in my life, we've had breaks.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: We've had one of my like my best friend, I lived with her for eight years.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: She is my common-law spouse.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: We had four years where we were barely in touch.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we didn't come back that way.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: We, but we're we're back, baby.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like so, so solid, so good.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I think a letter like that would have been really powerful and could have maybe sped up that gap.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I will say to normalize that, like humans grow, we change, and some friendships really can re-sprout, you can reconnect, you can re-know each other on new levels after a little gap, after some space.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think too, um, especially with like like COVID was very hard on friendships.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Politics have been very hard on friendships.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that comes back to like, what do you value?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times we we have our own value systems, right?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm sitting here telling you my opinion on something, like if it's political, it's really just how I'm viewing the current political environment through my value system.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone's agreeing with me, they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're really just saying, like, I have the same value system you do.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: You can have different value systems and still love someone very dearly and still have a very valuable friendship.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: It just takes a tiny little tweak of like, oh, are we what are we fighting about?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do we just have a little bit of a different value system here?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's okay.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay to have a little bit of a different value system.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or some friendships, maybe you don't.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you don't value the same things at all.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's a disconnect.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's not as much of a powerful friendship, or it's a different level.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_05: And I would say I didn't have any politic friendship issues over the last five years, but I do think it's because I don't see it as a value, a different set of values.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_05: I actually see it as a different way to make those values be known in the world.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that makes sense as a disagreement.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_05: Like, what do we agree on?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_05: We agree that we want people to have equality.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_05: We want people to be able to do these, like, we agree on actually a lot of things, even party to party in a lot of ways.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_05: Like, there are actually a lot of similar value systems, but the way that we go about it and the way that we think it should enter the world and the systems that we set up to do that.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_05: So, even in my conversations with friendships, it's like, oh, we value the same thing, which is we both think humans are beautiful and wonderful and they should have opportunities in the world.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_05: And XYZ, and this is this is how I see the best way to go about putting that value system in the world.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_05: And then this person says, Oh, well, I see this is the best way to go about the value systems in the world.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_05: And then we go, Oh, what does history say about how those value systems enter the world?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_05: What is and all of a sudden it becomes this like really interesting intellectual discussion about the opportunities and the risks and like implementation.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's really the implementation.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_05: So I would say, no, none of my friends have a different value system.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_05: It's how we think that value system should enter the world.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think that ability though to look at it from that human-to-human piece is the key, whether it, whatever it was that caused the riff.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because same, I didn't have I don't think I had any real friendships that experienced that.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: But I will tell you, there's been many times, and one recently, that I dug my heels in and I decided that the other person on the other side of the issue was in the wrong and that I j I could not see their perspective.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: And removing myself from it now, being removed, you know, it's now complete.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: It it ended it didn't end great.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, not really a friend, just an acquaintance.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: But I see this person all the time.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I had to really like take some time and go they genuinely 100% felt so strongly about their position, and so did I.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um I felt like I was on the right side, and they felt like they were on the right side of whatever it was that we were at odds with, right?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I think like when you're in a corner, your natural instinct is to like like go a little rabid, but being removed from it, I can take time and what I've been working on, and I'm I'm sending, I'm getting the letter out this this week next week.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: But it's been taking the time to realize what I value in that person.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: And some of it is is this still who I support you, I still support what we sent before because I said what it is.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_05: You know, there's this whole thing, even about just the world out there is so much less important to me than the person right here.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_05: Makes sense.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, what are we even arguing about?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_05: Like one vote that we do every four years.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_05: Sorry to your politics, people.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_05: But like part of it is I'm just so much and in favor of and for the human-to-human interaction connection.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_05: Like, change the world by the person across from you.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_05: Stop trying to change the world by a vote that you do four times a year.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, do your voting, all that stuff.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_05: But it's like, wow, what if you know, this whole concept of the friendship revolution for me is if we actually became incredible friends, if every single person on the planet became incredible friends that respected, admired, loved, cared for, looked out for, like that changes the world more than all of this, all the stuff that we fight about that actually we have very little control over.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_05: It's like I'm sure we've been talking finance.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_05: I'm sure a lot of what you guys talk about is there's stuff in your sphere of control that you can do financially.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_05: And there are things that have absolutely nothing to do with you that you cannot control.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_05: And if you spend all your time worrying about the financial things that are happening in the world that you can't control, like what the SP 500 does tomorrow or the next day or the next day.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_05: The if you want to grow your financial capital, focus on your sphere of control and what you can do financially.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_05: If you want to change the world, focus on the people in front of you.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_05: Like I really honestly believe that the biggest contribution I have made to the world is not by helping business owners sell their company for millions to a hundred millions of dollars, whatever.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_05: The biggest contribution I make in the world is when I sit across from a person and meet them where they're at, that changes.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_05: Like that, what the reason I love mentoring young people is you literally get to see this person change.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_05: And when that person changes, every single person in their life is changed in some way, shape, form, or fashion.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_05: So to me, when you think about spheres of control, it's like my sphere of control is are these people in my orbit?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_05: And if I can show up as my best self for them, if we can build this network of liking and trusting and choosing each other, that changes the world way more than all the other things that are happening.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_05: So part of it is what is who are the people in my orbit instead of worrying so much about the people that I have no control over that I can do nothing with.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_05: I think that concept applies to so many different parts of life.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you're not out to change the world, and even if you're maybe you're just looking to change your life, you change the world by changing how you show up and move through the world.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: You yeah, you can influence others just through how you show up.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you're not looking to influence others, it energetically happens.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing it anyway.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_05: Look, yeah, you're doing it anyway.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_05: Every single person, you're gonna change people's lives by being there.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_05: So how do you be there?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_05: You know?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_05: It's like we don't get the opportunity not to influence other people.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_05: That's just life.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you so much.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: You are you're a dear friend to me, and I know to a lot of people.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: I feel so lucky to know you, and you are wildly impressive, and we're so lucky to have your wisdom and your heart um out in the world, and then also with us just chatting.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_05: For having me.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_05: It was a grand time.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was a fun time.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_05: I enjoyed.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, bye.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that was today's episode of WTF.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: If you laughed, learned something, or felt a little less alone, make sure you hit follow.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: And send this episode to a friend who might need it.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Women don't gatekeep, especially not the good stuff.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be back next week with more real talk, more stories, and probably more over sharing.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time on WTF.