Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #731 Kids and Grooming - What You Need to Know

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#731 Kids and Grooming - What You Need to Know · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson, the founder of Happy
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  Speaker 2: Families dot com dot you. Every month or so, I've
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  Speaker 2: been having a conversation with the Australian Federal Police Detective
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  Speaker 2: Superintendent Jane Crossling from the Australian Center to Counter Child Exploitation,
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  Speaker 2: or ACE, as will refer to them throughout the rest
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  Speaker 2: of the podcast, is going to join me to talk
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  Speaker 2: about one of those topics we've talked about all the
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  Speaker 2: hard ones, really, the topics that are so challenging. A
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  Speaker 2: lot of parents sort of shrug their shoulder and say, oh, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it will never happen to me.
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  Speaker 1: A lot of parents will say I just don't even
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  Speaker 1: know where to start.
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  Speaker 2: We're talking about the genuinely hard topics that revolve around
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  Speaker 2: kids and screens. Jane, thank you for joining me for
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  Speaker 2: this conversation about whether or not kids being groomed.
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  Speaker 1: Tricky topics dive into today.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks Justin.
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  Speaker 2: I had a conversation just the other day with somebody
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  Speaker 2: who said, I think that we're like the genie is
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  Speaker 2: out of the bottle when it comes to kids and screens.
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  Speaker 2: They're all over it. We just need to embrace it.
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  Speaker 2: We need to stop going on about all the scare tactics.
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  Speaker 2: And yet I picked up a book that the Australian
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  Speaker 2: Federal Police have written with some very very careful consultants.
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  Speaker 2: The book is called Jack Changes the Game and it's
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  Speaker 2: a book about kids being approached by strangers for grooming
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  Speaker 2: purposes online. I want to talk to you about the
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  Speaker 2: book and I want to talk to you about grooming,
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  Speaker 2: how often it happens, what we need to be looking
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  Speaker 2: out for, and how we can keep our kids safe.
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  Speaker 2: So many different ways for us to go here. Let's
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  Speaker 2: just start with a really hard hitting question before we
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  Speaker 2: get to the book. Do you think that parents grasp
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  Speaker 2: the reality of grooming and the dangers that it poses
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  Speaker 2: to their children.
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  Speaker 4: I think the short answer is no, they don't grasp
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  Speaker 4: the serious nature of it and how frequently it can occur.
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  Speaker 4: So we have data just for those reports that we
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  Speaker 4: actually receive. There could be any number of other instances
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  Speaker 4: that are happening where we don't receive those reports.
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  Speaker 3: And unfortunately, we are.
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  Speaker 4: Receiving reports that involve very young children who have actually
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  Speaker 4: been approached online with somebody that intends to groom them.
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  Speaker 1: How young is very young.
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  Speaker 4: We've seen children, you know, five, six, seven years of
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  Speaker 4: age and predominantly through online gaming platforms and sites.
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  Speaker 2: Well, so five year olds need to know about grooming,
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  Speaker 2: which is kind of tricky because we're barely talking to
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  Speaker 2: them about their own private parts. I mean, a lot
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  Speaker 2: of parents don't even consider having conversations about procreation intimacy,
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  Speaker 2: those kinds of physical intimate moments until kids are somewhere
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  Speaker 2: between eight and twelve, depending on the family, depending what
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  Speaker 2: the kids are exposed to. So you're really saying that
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  Speaker 2: at the age of five, we need to have this conversation,
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  Speaker 2: which I guess leads into my question for you about
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  Speaker 2: a book, a book written by the Australian Federal Police
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  Speaker 2: about grooming.
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  Speaker 1: The book's called Jack Changes the Game. You sent it
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  Speaker 1: through to me. I've read it.
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  Speaker 2: I think that it does a really great job of
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  Speaker 2: bringing the topic up. But maybe outside of my endorsement
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  Speaker 2: of the book, you could describe what's going on in
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  Speaker 2: the book, where you got the ideas from, and how
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  Speaker 2: it's come to be.
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  Speaker 4: So the whole idea was that there was a gap
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  Speaker 4: essentially that we knew that young people were vulnerable to
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  Speaker 4: this type of dreaming, and one of the amazing teams
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  Speaker 4: that works at ACE, called the Online Child Safety Team,
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  Speaker 4: actually had the idea of a children's picture book being
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  Speaker 4: part of the solution to fill that gap. They were
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  Speaker 4: able to secure some money from an innovation fund that
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  Speaker 4: the AFP set up, and they were very successful in
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  Speaker 4: getting that bid up. So they took the concept and
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  Speaker 4: found an author. We were given access to the notable
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  Speaker 4: author tes Rowley and also the illustrator Shannon Haw's Fall,
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  Speaker 4: and then they said about building a reference group because
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  Speaker 4: at the end of the day, we're law enforcement and
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  Speaker 4: we don't purport to be children education experts, and we
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  Speaker 4: wanted to make sure that our message was appropriate, particularly
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  Speaker 4: age appropriate.
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  Speaker 3: But that it was not fear based, and that.
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  Speaker 4: It was age appropriate and evidence based most importantly, so
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  Speaker 4: we had some notable academics, also.
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  Speaker 3: A victim survivor, as well as academics.
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  Speaker 4: From psychology, early childhood.
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  Speaker 3: And inclusive education areas in academia.
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  Speaker 4: So that reference group was able to provide oversight and
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  Speaker 4: amazing guidance to the team as the book developed, and
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  Speaker 4: it was hopefully with the whole idea in mind of
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  Speaker 4: being a conversation star and allowing parents the opportunity to
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  Speaker 4: start a conversation about something that they might otherwise feel
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  Speaker 4: very uncomfortable about, but something that needed to take place
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  Speaker 4: given that young people are online, and we can't shay
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  Speaker 4: away from the fact that young people from very very
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  Speaker 4: early ages are doing things that are entirely age appropriate.
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  Speaker 3: But perhaps there are opportunities there for groomers.
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  Speaker 4: That the parents perhaps didn't fully understand.
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  Speaker 2: So step me through the story. We've got a character
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  Speaker 2: called Jack who is obviously online and gets approached. What
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  Speaker 2: happens next in the story.
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  Speaker 4: So Jack, when he is approached, he initially feels that
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  Speaker 4: he's created a really lovely bond with another person. And
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  Speaker 4: this is just so common when young people think that
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  Speaker 4: they've found someone online that's very like minded, that they
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  Speaker 4: have some sort of connection, and they feel really validated
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  Speaker 4: by that. But the messaging there, specifically for the child,
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  Speaker 4: is that not everybody online is who they say they are.
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  Speaker 4: So helping young people develop a sense to differentiate between
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  Speaker 4: online and real world friendships is really critical and we
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  Speaker 4: want to keep reinforcing that message that went online they
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  Speaker 4: should ideally avoid talking to people that they don't actually
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  Speaker 4: know in person. And then also Jack, as part of
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  Speaker 4: the journey, actually starts to feel uncomfortable when the conversation
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  Speaker 4: goes in a slightly different way. And we think it's
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  Speaker 4: so critical that young people understand when something is actually
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  Speaker 4: making them feel unsure or unsafe and then what to
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  Speaker 4: do about it. They need to actually then reach out.
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  Speaker 4: So we see that process where Jack actually reaches out
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  Speaker 4: and he is able to see that by having a
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  Speaker 4: close relationship with siblings and friends, that they're all part
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  Speaker 4: of the ecosystem that can provide that support to a
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  Speaker 4: young person when they do reach out, and that it's
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  Speaker 4: a positive outcome when contact is made, when a problem
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  Speaker 4: is shared, and that it all is a positive outcome
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  Speaker 4: for the entire household.
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  Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling from ACE, the
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  Speaker 2: Australian senator counter Child Exploitation. The police are authors, the
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  Speaker 2: police have written a book, Jack Changes the Game. It
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  Speaker 2: sounds so sinister, Jane, as you talk about this setup,
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  Speaker 2: I'm guessing it's based on real life. This is not
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  Speaker 2: something that you fictionally created. I presume you have stories
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  Speaker 2: like this coming through your front door every day.
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  Speaker 3: We're troubled by the amount of reports that we see.
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  Speaker 4: So the ACE serves as a front door for reporting
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  Speaker 4: for online child sexual exploitation for Australia now, and that
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  Speaker 4: includes the type of grooming behavior that we see play
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  Speaker 4: out in this book. And we are not only concerned
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  Speaker 4: about the volume, but the fact that it impacts on
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  Speaker 4: children of every age.
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  Speaker 2: Is there an age that's too young to start talking
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  Speaker 2: about this? I mean, this is a book that is
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  Speaker 2: it's literally a children's book. I mean you could read
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  Speaker 2: it to your four year old, your five year old,
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  Speaker 2: for sure. Is there an age that's too young to
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  Speaker 2: talk about grooming from a police.
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  Speaker 3: Standpoint, we don't think there is.
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  Speaker 4: We think that it's actually an entirely appropriate thing for
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  Speaker 4: a parent or a care to do as soon as
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  Speaker 4: that young person is going to be acting interacting with devices,
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  Speaker 4: and particularly devices that are connected to the Internet. So
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  Speaker 4: this resource is all about having early conversations which could
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  Speaker 4: lead to earlier intervention should something wrong go online. And
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  Speaker 4: because we've been very gentle in the telling of the story,
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  Speaker 4: we feel that that's where the age appropriate.
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  Speaker 3: Key feature of the book comes into play.
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  Speaker 4: So it's really targeted for an audience of five to
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  Speaker 4: eight year olds. It's designed to be led by a
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  Speaker 4: parent or a care or indeed a teacher, and we
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  Speaker 4: have a whole range of resources to support the book
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  Speaker 4: on the website as well that includes additional material that
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  Speaker 4: would help a parent, a care or a teacher in
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  Speaker 4: how they actually speak to other aspects that might fall
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  Speaker 4: out of having read through the book.
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  Speaker 3: So we in recognizing that this is.
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  Speaker 4: Really really challenging for parents and cares and teachers, this
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  Speaker 4: is designed to be a tool and it is just
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  Speaker 4: considered an alternative way of delivering what is a really
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  Speaker 4: important safety message in a way that's non confrontational. As
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  Speaker 4: I said, it's a very gentle message. There's a particular
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  Speaker 4: passage that's repeated that can become a little bit of
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  Speaker 4: a catch cry, and I think you know, the authors
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  Speaker 4: have done such an outstandingly good job to make the
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  Speaker 4: message really accessible.
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  Speaker 2: Now, Jane, the AFP are not trying to make money
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  Speaker 2: off this. In fact, you have sent this book to
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  Speaker 2: every school in the country. It's available on every school
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  Speaker 2: library in every school around every state and every town
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  Speaker 2: and every city in the country, so parents can easily
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  Speaker 2: get access to it, they can get the kids to
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  Speaker 2: pick it up the library, the parents can call the school.
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  Speaker 2: The book is called Jack Changes the Game, and I
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  Speaker 2: love how you mentioned before this is a conversation starter.
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  Speaker 2: Now I have two more questions as we sort of
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  Speaker 2: continue this conversation. My first one is how how does
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  Speaker 2: a parent talk about something they know so little about already?
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  Speaker 2: Where does a parent even start outside of picking up
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  Speaker 2: this book from the library and having a look through
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  Speaker 2: it and reading it to their child.
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  Speaker 3: We've been tackling that subject quite some time now.
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  Speaker 4: The Online Tide Safty team here adays have been responsible
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  Speaker 4: for the think you Know initiative for some years now,
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  Speaker 4: and that has been about how to start those conversations
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  Speaker 4: and making it, you know, age appropriate in how they
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  Speaker 4: might embark on that. The other, the other tool that
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  Speaker 4: we often talk about is the notion of a family
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  Speaker 4: online safety contract. So we've developed this contract. There's a
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  Speaker 4: shared agreement between a young person of any age I
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  Speaker 4: should stress and the parents to put down some expectation
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  Speaker 4: around usage, but also it serves as an excellent conversation
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  Speaker 4: started to talk about how that technology might be used,
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  Speaker 4: and then also to demonstrate a commitment to talking up
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  Speaker 4: if something isn't going well online. And some of the
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  Speaker 4: feedback that we've received over the years about these contracts
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  Speaker 4: has been so positive that it's been such a powerful agreement,
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  Speaker 4: particularly where there's something to win or lose from both
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  Speaker 4: sides of the equation, where the parents themselves also have
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  Speaker 4: to make certain commitments that there's ramifications for them as well,
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  Speaker 4: So that's available on the Think you Know website, but
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  Speaker 4: there's also a lot of information that is age appropriate
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  Speaker 4: for parents as well if they just don't know where
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  Speaker 4: to start. We sometimes speak to parents and they can
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  Speaker 4: get a little bit bogged down in saying that they
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  Speaker 4: don't understand the technology, but we don't necessarily think that
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  Speaker 4: that's the most critical aspect. We think it's far more
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  Speaker 4: important for a parent to say that they at least
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  Speaker 4: know what games, app sites, platforms that young person's on,
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  Speaker 4: what they like, and what they tend to use, what
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  Speaker 4: they gravitate towards, and that the parent will make it really,
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  Speaker 4: really clear that the door is always open for communication.
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  Speaker 4: We think that's much more important than parents having a
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  Speaker 4: really technical understanding of whatever it is that the young
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  Speaker 4: person's involved in, So we don't want parents to feel overwhelmed.
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  Speaker 4: There are just some really basic things that a parent
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  Speaker 4: can do, and in the context of the grooming scenario
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  Speaker 4: that we used as the basis of the story, a
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  Speaker 4: parent can actually just check whether or not the game
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  Speaker 4: or the app that the young child is using does
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  Speaker 4: it even have direct message function. This is one of
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  Speaker 4: the most basic things that a parent can do to
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  Speaker 4: feel more comfortable about the game that that person is playing.
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  Speaker 3: Because if they're talking.
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  Speaker 4: To people that they don't know in the real world,
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  Speaker 4: that that is cause for concern, particularly if they're the
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  Speaker 4: younger children, and are they talking about the game, if
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  Speaker 4: they are talking about anything, So these are sorts of
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  Speaker 4: things that parents can talk about. They can consider disabling
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  Speaker 4: the chat if it's not actually essential to the play
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  Speaker 4: of the game. But again, if a parent isn't even
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  Speaker 4: understanding what their young child is into and what they
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  Speaker 4: typically gravitate towards, they don't know about those sorts of
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  Speaker 4: really basic security measures that they can take. Privacy settings
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  Speaker 4: as well allow you to control who can actually talk
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  Speaker 4: to your child. These are again really simple, and there's
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  Speaker 4: usually lots of help menus available to explain how those
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  Speaker 4: sorts of settings are turned on, and even talking to
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  Speaker 4: young people about critical thinking skills as they grow and mature.
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  Speaker 4: These are things that are going to serve a young
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  Speaker 4: person well through life, and not just in their online.
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  Speaker 3: World, but.
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  Speaker 4: Just reinforcing the notion that not everybody online is who
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  Speaker 4: they say they are, and working out whether or not
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  Speaker 4: it's appropriate to share images personal information with people.
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  Speaker 3: When they are online.
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  Speaker 4: One of the really big red flags for us that
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  Speaker 4: we see is that when young people are interacting on
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  Speaker 4: an entirely age appropriate game or app or site, that
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  Speaker 4: they're being asked to move to a different platform. So
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  Speaker 4: again that's a really big red flag for us that
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  Speaker 4: a young child should be very wary about. And it's
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  Speaker 4: not necessary that the parents have to go into great
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  Speaker 4: detail as to why that's something to be wary of,
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  Speaker 4: but just that it's not appropriate and that if that
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  Speaker 4: were to happen, maybe talk to mom and dad. So
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  Speaker 4: there are some really basic things that a parent or
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  Speaker 4: care can do in a household setting that don't mean
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  Speaker 4: they have to be overwhelmed, and it doesn't mean that
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  Speaker 4: they have to know the ins and outs of every
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  Speaker 4: game that the young person's playing.
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  Speaker 1: I love that advice.
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  Speaker 2: You actually answered both of the questions that I was
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  Speaker 2: going to ask in that one. But when I hear
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  Speaker 2: you describe everything that you've shared there.
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  Speaker 1: My summary of it is just start.
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  Speaker 2: Just even if you don't know what to say, just say, hey, kid,
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  Speaker 2: I need to talk to you about this.
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  Speaker 1: I don't even know where to start, but here's what
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  Speaker 1: I'm worried about.
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  Speaker 2: Here's what I heard on the podcast today, and I
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: just know that I need to keep you safe. So
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: let's have a chat about it. Like that's that's all
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  Speaker 2: it takes to get going right.
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  Speaker 4: Absolutely, And some of the feedback that we've heard from
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  Speaker 4: the young people themselves is that the young people actually
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  Speaker 4: feel a little bit validated if their interests are something
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  Speaker 4: that the parents want to even talk about.
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  Speaker 3: So, you know, you may really your eyes make.
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  Speaker 4: Glaze over if the kid's going to give you in
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: depth explanation of what they just did in minecraft or
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  Speaker 4: roadblocks or whatever it is that they're into.
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  Speaker 3: But for a parent to show that level of interest, I.
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  Speaker 4: Think from what we see, it just sort of reinforces
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  Speaker 4: that a young person is okay to talk about it
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  Speaker 4: and that the parents at least have a level of interest.
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  Speaker 1: In it so appreciate this conversation.
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  Speaker 2: So many parents aren't aware of just how much this
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  Speaker 2: can strike at the heart of it's such a terrifying thing,
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  Speaker 2: quite frankly, and so many parents just aren't aware that
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  Speaker 2: it is as big a deal as it is and
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  Speaker 2: that their kids can be and are being approached. Detective
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Superintendent Jane Crossling from the Australian Senator Counter Child Exploitation
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  Speaker 2: or ACE find out more at a triple ce dot
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  Speaker 2: gov dot a U and Jane will link to the
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: resource that you've mentioned in our show notes so that
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: parents can get hold of everything that they need to
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  Speaker 2: get this going and also if they want to get
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: hold of the book, Jack Changes, the game should be
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  Speaker 2: available in your school library. Thanks for chatting with me
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  Speaker 2: about this really super important topic.
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  Speaker 4: Thanks Justin, and can I just say that the book
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  Speaker 4: is also available as a downloadable from the website, so
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  Speaker 4: we've had already over ten thousand downloads of the book,
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  Speaker 4: so yeah, that might be worth referencing as well.
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  Speaker 2: That's one hundred percent worth referencing, and we will also
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  Speaker 2: find that link and share that in our show notes
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  Speaker 2: as well, so that parents don't even have to go
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  Speaker 2: to the school library to get ahold of it. They
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: can just download it and read it on their phone
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  Speaker 2: with their kids. Jane, look forward to our next conversation.
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  Speaker 2: A delight to be with you.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland for
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and For
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: more information about making your family happier and keeping your
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  Speaker 2: kids safe from grooming, check out the show notes to
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: this podcast episode and visit a triple ce dot gov
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  Speaker 2: dot a you, orhappy families dot com dot au