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1-800-1852: The Princess Who Ate a Glass Piano · 1-800-1800

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Ring ring.
0:01
SPEAKER_02: Hello?
0:02
SPEAKER_02: Is this 1852?
0:04
SPEAKER_02: This is she?
0:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: Hello?
0:11
SPEAKER_00: You've reached 1-800-1800.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: 1-800-1800.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: I have a burning question.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: 1-800-1800.
0:30
SPEAKER_02: And if you were to go by another name other than 1852, what would it be?
0:35
SPEAKER_02: I think 1852 is obviously number one.
0:39
SPEAKER_02: Number two is Julia Carpenter.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: Oh my God, that is awesome.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to 1-800-1800, Julia Carpenter.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: We're so excited.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: I am on fire about this.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: As I told you, I'm a super fan.
0:53
SPEAKER_02: And every time you drop a new year,
0:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
0:56
SPEAKER_02: oh my God,
0:56
SPEAKER_02: this one,
0:57
SPEAKER_02: as if there aren't 90 other years.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: Only the hits, only the hits over here.
1:03
SPEAKER_02: Do you have a favorite year that you're like excited for us to do?
1:06
SPEAKER_02: Ooh, yeah.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: Not to put you on the spot.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: You know what?
1:12
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: Because I think it's just going to be really perfect.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm really excited for you to do 1,800.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: We've actually never thought about it.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, that doesn't count.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: We need to hire a marching band or something.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: Something.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: Something.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: That's like the golden birthday.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's how it feels.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
1:33
SPEAKER_02: It feels like a very momentous...
1:35
SPEAKER_02: Although,
1:36
SPEAKER_02: what even...
1:36
SPEAKER_02: Again,
1:37
SPEAKER_02: you'll have to explore in the episode,
1:38
SPEAKER_02: but I'm like,
1:39
SPEAKER_02: what happened in 1800?
1:41
SPEAKER_02: I bet not much.
1:42
SPEAKER_02: Right?
1:43
SPEAKER_02: I feel like the beginning of the year is always...
1:46
SPEAKER_02: A little bit of a... Like what happened in the year 2000?
1:50
SPEAKER_02: Any memories?
1:53
SPEAKER_01: Anyone care to share?
1:55
SPEAKER_01: George Bush.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: That's a good one.
1:59
SPEAKER_02: That's a good one.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: That's famous.
2:01
I was thinking about that at your event,
2:03
actually,
2:03
because I was thinking about Y2K.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: That's good.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: We want people to think about George Bush when they come to our house.
2:10
SPEAKER_02: You know the natural connection between George Bush and 1-800-1800?
2:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, true.
2:16
thinking about that at your event because i thought oh my gosh
2:18
we were all so
2:19
worried about y2k and i was in third grade and i remember being
2:23
freaked out about
2:24
y2k and then what happened the next year 9 11 like i didn't we
2:29
didn't even know you
2:31
didn't even know how bad it could get like maybe y2k did happen
2:34
in a way were your
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SPEAKER_01: parents worried about it y2k yeah
2:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to remember.
2:42
SPEAKER_02: You know what I remember?
2:43
I remember being in the computer lab at school and our computer
2:50
teacher was telling
2:51
SPEAKER_02: us about it and was saying like...
2:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay,
2:52
SPEAKER_01: interesting.
2:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like, you know, this is something that's happening.
2:57
SPEAKER_02: And I remember thinking in the computer lab, we have a home computer.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
3:03
And my little third grade brain was like,
3:05
it's obviously going to explode.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: Like, that's what will... Madeline, were your parents worried?
3:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: No,
3:12
and I don't really remember it as a result because they were
3:15
kind of like,
3:16
SPEAKER_01: my parents are really nonplussed about things like that.
3:19
So I don't think I even really heard about it until after when
3:24
everyone was like,
3:25
we survived.
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SPEAKER_01: And I was like, we survived what?
3:30
SPEAKER_02: Julia, can you introduce yourself?
3:31
SPEAKER_02: We've learned a lot about you in the last minute.
3:34
Yes.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: But I think that the listeners deserve a little bit more.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm Julia Carpenter.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm a freelance writer and journalist living in Brooklyn.
3:43
SPEAKER_02: I write a newsletter about women from history called A Woman to Know.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: And I am a Mandy Lyon reader and write a lot about culture,
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SPEAKER_02: gender,
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SPEAKER_02: tech,
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SPEAKER_02: things that are relevant today but were really relevant in 1852.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: Very, very good.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Mabel.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Madeline Porcella.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to say your full name, Mabel?
4:12
SPEAKER_01: My name is Mabel Capability Taylor.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: And so today we're talking about 1852,
4:20
and we are very excited Julia's here because she wrote an
4:23
amazing newsletter about
4:25
SPEAKER_01: Princess Alexandria that we,
4:27
SPEAKER_01: that's her name,
4:28
SPEAKER_01: right?
4:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that we adore.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: And so we're going to get into that.
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SPEAKER_01: I wonder, does it make sense to start with what we learned this week?
4:37
SPEAKER_01: Mabel, do you want to say what you learned this week?
4:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: I will say what we learned,
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SPEAKER_02: what I learned,
4:43
SPEAKER_02: not what all...
4:43
SPEAKER_02: Well,
4:44
SPEAKER_02: actually,
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all of us kind of learned it because we all attended the same
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event on Thursday,
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SPEAKER_02: January 8th at McNally Jackson Seaport.
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Madeline and I got the opportunity to moderate a panel with
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three experts in
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SPEAKER_02: answering the question which we posed for the panel,
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SPEAKER_02: which was like...
5:01
SPEAKER_02: Why do 19th century novels matter?
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SPEAKER_02: That was the question, I believe, of the event.
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SPEAKER_02: And we invited Ruby Redstone,
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SPEAKER_02: fashion historian,
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SPEAKER_02: Grace Byron,
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SPEAKER_02: novelist,
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SPEAKER_02: and Audrey Wallen,
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SPEAKER_02: critic,
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SPEAKER_02: to come help us answer those questions.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: And it was like the best ever.
5:17
SPEAKER_02: It was our first panel that we moderated.
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SPEAKER_02: And it was fun because we got to actually just chat on stage.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: It was packed.
5:26
SPEAKER_02: It was packed.
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SPEAKER_02: It was a really lively.
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SPEAKER_02: People were reacting.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:31
SPEAKER_02: It was alive.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: I was reacting.
5:33
SPEAKER_02: The crowd was electric.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: It was sort of like,
5:38
what was the show where the Rolling Stones played and everybody
5:42
died in the
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SPEAKER_02: audience?
5:44
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: Altamont.
5:45
SPEAKER_02: Oh, Altamont.
5:45
SPEAKER_02: Oh.
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SPEAKER_02: Altadena is the neighborhood in LA.
5:52
SPEAKER_02: And so it was really special.
5:53
And I could say something I learned from the work of any one of
5:58
our panelists,
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SPEAKER_02: like Ruby,
5:59
I read her newsletter and I'm always learning about different
6:03
clues from the past.
6:04
And we all just read,
6:06
I don't know if you read it yet,
6:07
Julia,
6:08
but Grace's novel,
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Herculine.
6:10
SPEAKER_02: No,
6:10
but my friend who attended the panel with me bought the book
6:13
and we all agreed we
6:14
SPEAKER_02: would share the copy.
6:15
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so you're up next.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: It's really fun.
6:17
SPEAKER_02: It's really good.
6:18
And it's about a kind of commune in the Midwest for trans girls
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and like things get
6:23
SPEAKER_02: really demonic.
6:25
But something that I read from Audrey that does stick with me
6:29
is this essay she
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SPEAKER_02: wrote for the Yale Review.
6:31
recently a couple of months ago about the history of the
6:36
handbag and this idea
6:39
that's sort of like on the fringes of like anthropology which
6:42
is the idea that the
6:43
handbag was kind of the first technology and is contributes to
6:48
the like it was the
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SPEAKER_02: main contributing factor to the evolution of the human and
6:52
SPEAKER_02: being.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: Because basically,
6:55
SPEAKER_02: when you think about the origins of the human species,
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you think about the caveman with his spear hunting a giant boar
7:03
or whatever.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: Actually,
7:04
there's evidence that mostly what sustained early humans was
7:07
nuts and grasses and
7:10
SPEAKER_02: things that are foraged.
7:11
And the most important thing when you're foraging is to have
7:14
somewhere to put them.
7:15
And she talks about the handbag in that kind of more
7:18
traditional anthropological history.
7:20
SPEAKER_02: But then she also talks about like Mary Poppins, who has an amazing bag.
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SPEAKER_02: And she talks about the importance of being earnest.
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SPEAKER_02: And there's a baby found in a handbag in that play.
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SPEAKER_02: And she just weaves it all together.
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SPEAKER_02: And it's like, it's amazing.
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SPEAKER_02: So it's called a unified theory of the handbag.
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SPEAKER_02: And I learned a lot.
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SPEAKER_02: You guys should read it.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
7:38
SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: And I love purses, basically.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Who doesn't?
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SPEAKER_01: It's her main thesis.
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SPEAKER_01: Julia, did you learn anything?
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SPEAKER_02: I have two things.
7:52
One is related to what I wanted to talk about today and related
7:56
to the 19th century.
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SPEAKER_02: The other one is not, and it's just a Wikipedia rabbit hole I went down.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: Somewhat inspired, actually, by the event.
8:06
SPEAKER_02: So after the event,
8:08
I was on the train and I was Wikipedia-ing different cults and
8:13
refreshing my
8:13
SPEAKER_02: memory.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: Naturally.
8:15
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: Refreshing my memory as to the most famous cults.
8:19
Do you both ever do this thing where you kind of know most of
8:24
what you need to know
8:25
SPEAKER_02: about a thing,
8:25
but then you go to Wikipedia kind of to like fact check your
8:28
own understanding of
8:30
SPEAKER_02: it?
8:30
SPEAKER_02: So I read a lot about Jim Jones.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh, awesome.
8:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, famously the Jonestown Massacre.
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And I wonder when you two think of the Jonestown Massacre and
8:41
what happened,
8:43
SPEAKER_02: what's like one association you have with it?
8:46
SPEAKER_01: I have like two.
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SPEAKER_01: The two major ones are the sneakers and the Kool-Aid.
8:51
For me,
8:52
it's that my dad is a huge fan of the Brian Jonestown Massacre
8:56
band.
8:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:58
Yeah,
8:59
so that's like my childhood soundtrack in a really dark and
9:02
twisted way.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
9:04
SPEAKER_02: I didn't even know there was.
9:05
SPEAKER_02: There's like a shoegaze band that my dad loved.
9:11
SPEAKER_02: Madeline, I love that you said Kool-Aid because that's mine.
9:14
SPEAKER_02: I was like, okay, right.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: They spiked the Kool-Aid.
9:18
SPEAKER_02: Y'all, it wasn't Kool-Aid.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: What was it?
9:20
SPEAKER_02: It was a generic punch called Flavor-Aid.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Whoa.
9:26
And I was thinking,
9:27
I was reading about this and I was like,
9:29
this is my literal first thought.
9:32
SPEAKER_02: Poor Kool-Aid.
9:33
SPEAKER_02: Like Kool-Aid got dragged into this and it wasn't even them.
9:38
SPEAKER_02: Drinking the Kool-Aid is obviously now.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, don't drink the Kool-Aid.
9:42
It's honestly,
9:43
when someone says Kool-Aid,
9:44
my first thought is,
9:45
yeah,
9:45
don't drink the Kool-Aid.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: And it's not Kool-Aid.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: Is Kool-Aid the huge punch man?
9:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he comes through the wall.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: That's the Kool-Aid man.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: I love that guy.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: So they had amazing branding before.
10:00
I was like,
10:00
somebody at Kool-Aid must have been freaking out when this
10:03
happened.
10:04
SPEAKER_02: And then they saw what happened.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it was kind of like a no bad press situation.
10:10
Maybe they were like,
10:11
our name is on everyone's lips this week kind of thing.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Literally.
10:18
SPEAKER_02: Someone at Kool-Aid definitely tried to,
10:19
SPEAKER_02: someone at Kool-Aid corporate tried to spin it that way.
10:22
SPEAKER_02: Someone at Kool-Aid was like...
10:24
SPEAKER_02: This is amazing for us.
10:25
SPEAKER_02: We are front page news and Mr.
10:27
SPEAKER_02: and Mrs.
10:28
SPEAKER_02: Kool-Aid of the Kool-Aid dynasty were like,
10:31
SPEAKER_02: we do not want our legacy associated with this.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, don't drink the Kool-Aid.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: That was the first thing I learned.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it kind of blew my mind.
10:40
SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh my God, the shorthand for this when it wasn't even this.
10:44
The second thing I learned is a small thing,
10:46
but the German word for melancholy is weltschmerz.
10:53
SPEAKER_02: And which I'm probably not pronouncing correctly,
10:55
SPEAKER_02: but it directly translates to world weariness.
10:59
SPEAKER_02: And I just thought that was so appropriate.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: That is appropriate.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: German is good for that.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: They're always like hitting you with something.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: You're like, whoa.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: And apparently the actual, the Greek origins of melancholy exist.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: or it's just about bile and humors.
11:18
SPEAKER_02: And I thought, okay, that makes sense.
11:20
SPEAKER_02: We were big on the humors back then.
11:22
SPEAKER_02: This is also making me think,
11:24
last night I spent like four hours catching up on all the Real
11:26
Housewives that I'm
11:27
SPEAKER_02: behind on,
11:28
SPEAKER_02: and I'm caught up.
11:30
SPEAKER_02: I assume you're both caught up.
11:32
SPEAKER_02: But like hit me with anything.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: Not Beverly Hills.
11:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm not caught up on Beverly Hills.
11:36
SPEAKER_02: Well, this is a throwback.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: This is like two episodes behind, actually.
11:38
SPEAKER_02: Because Meredith,
11:39
SPEAKER_02: though,
11:40
SPEAKER_02: on Salt Lake City is like,
11:41
SPEAKER_02: I have the weight of the world on my shoulders.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: And I thought that was really interesting.
11:45
SPEAKER_02: That's her excuse for explaining her incredibly strange behavior.
11:49
But then I was also thinking about Dorit in the throes of her
11:51
divorce from PK being
11:53
SPEAKER_02: like,
11:54
SPEAKER_02: my son has the weight of the world on his shoulders now.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: Jagger.
11:58
SPEAKER_02: Throwback to the Rolling Stones.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:01
And I just thought that was such interesting coincidence and
12:05
phrasing from both housewives.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm like,
12:08
I've never seen people who appear to have less of the weight of
12:11
the world on their
12:11
SPEAKER_02: shoulders.
12:14
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I often feel like I have the,
12:18
SPEAKER_02: I have something on my shoulders,
12:20
SPEAKER_02: but it really is not the weight of the world.
12:22
SPEAKER_02: If anything, it's like, I'm so insignificant.
12:24
Like I have the weight of my household on my shoulders today
12:27
and like how silly,
12:28
you know?
12:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
12:30
I also think that Meredith saying that in the context of this
12:34
like fake Greek
12:35
SPEAKER_01: tragedy that they wrote,
12:36
SPEAKER_01: which is iconic,
12:38
SPEAKER_01: is like so amazing.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: She's just so missing the point.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: It's like the most Greek tragedy thing in the world.
12:47
to be like I am carrying this massive weight alone I'm the only
12:51
person who cares
12:52
about humanity she wants the world to be a better place for a
12:57
long time that
12:58
episode like I need to rewatch it I think I don't even know
13:01
what happened to me or
13:03
SPEAKER_01: to them when Bronwyn goes
13:07
SPEAKER_01: That was really hard to watch.
13:11
SPEAKER_02: I would pay money to see that play performed.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: I also would.
13:17
I also do think it is an amazing concept to have a play
13:23
performed about you in the
13:25
SPEAKER_02: context of a group trip.
13:27
SPEAKER_02: It's very smart.
13:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:29
SPEAKER_02: Texted my writing group because I was like,
13:31
SPEAKER_02: there is literally a play within a play device happening right now.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: This is Shakespearean.
13:35
SPEAKER_02: It's really good.
13:36
SPEAKER_02: The keys given are on another level.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: The play's the thing.
13:42
SPEAKER_02: They literally have to do...
13:45
SPEAKER_02: Hamlet in order to connect with one another.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: It's so amazing.
13:51
SPEAKER_02: Iconic.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: Madeline, what did you learn?
13:56
SPEAKER_01: Oh, mine's quick.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: We got a DM,
14:02
SPEAKER_01: or that's how I found out,
14:03
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how you found out,
14:04
SPEAKER_01: Mabel,
14:05
that there was a headline in the Irish Times that Xi Jinping is
14:10
a fan of the
14:10
SPEAKER_01: gadfly.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
14:13
it's in fact one of his favorite books and he told this to the
14:18
irish president yeah
14:20
prime minister of ireland on a state visit whose name i
14:23
obviously don't know it's
14:25
like michaels martin yeah michaels martin and i just want
14:30
everyone to know that
14:30
they're mandy line girls at all levels of power and i think
14:34
everybody needs to sort
14:36
of think on that when they're you know embracing the project
14:41
we're everywhere
14:43
SPEAKER_02: I wonder if he has your copy.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: We should send it to him.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: How do you send something to the head of China?
14:51
SPEAKER_01: President of China.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: Care of.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: They would definitely be like, this is a bomb.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: These American girls.
15:02
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
15:03
I think it would be awesome for Julia you to explain what 1852
15:09
means to you in
15:10
SPEAKER_02: terms of a story that you have to tell.
15:15
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
15:15
I write a newsletter all about women from history profiling
15:21
once forgotten women
15:22
SPEAKER_02: from history is how I like to say it.
15:24
And that mostly involves me reading a lot of archives and
15:30
historians' personal
15:32
SPEAKER_02: blogs and Wikipedia pages.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: I was really interested to read about Prince Alexandra Amelie of Bavaria,
15:41
SPEAKER_02: not unfortunately because of any giant contribution she made to 1852,
15:47
SPEAKER_02: but because she is one of our
15:52
SPEAKER_02: most obvious examples of this thing called the glass delusion.
15:56
SPEAKER_02: Have either of you ever heard of it before?
15:58
SPEAKER_01: We've come across it before, but tell us more because it's really crazy.
16:04
SPEAKER_02: It's so interesting.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: And I think a very 19th century phenomenon,
16:11
SPEAKER_02: but also there are people still experiencing it today,
16:14
SPEAKER_02: which we'll get into.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: It's really interesting to consider
16:18
the psychological reasons why,
16:19
but also now people think there are neurological reasons why.
16:23
I'll tell you how it showed up in the princess's life,
16:27
because I think this is...
16:30
SPEAKER_02: She had a very particular kind of glass delusion,
16:34
which most people who have it think that their body parts have
16:38
been turned into
16:38
SPEAKER_02: glass.
16:39
So they're very cautious with the way they move,
16:42
very cautious about people touching them.
16:43
They'll wear special garments so that their insides don't break
16:47
or that their glass
16:48
SPEAKER_02: legs don't shatter.
16:50
Princess Alexandra thought she had swallowed a glass piano and
16:56
she said that she
16:57
had swallowed it at some point as a child and that at any
17:01
moment it could shatter
17:02
SPEAKER_02: and rip up her insides and kill her.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: Can I ask a clarifying question?
17:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: In your newsletter and in other things I've read,
17:11
SPEAKER_01: it seems like so she believed she swallowed it as a child,
17:14
SPEAKER_01: but then sort of forgot and it only occurred to her much,
17:17
SPEAKER_01: much later in her life that she should be careful of it.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
17:21
SPEAKER_02: So around 1850, 1852 is when she starts talking about this piano.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: She was born in 1826.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: She is the daughter of King Ludwig I of Bavaria.
17:33
And a lot of stuff happens in her early 20s that then brings on
17:39
this delusion.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: But it's really interesting to your point that
17:42
SPEAKER_02: She didn't say, oh, I swallowed this in 1849 when I was 22.
17:50
Instead,
17:50
she says,
17:51
I swallowed this as a child and it's coming back later.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: Historians think that might be because her childhood was interesting.
17:59
SPEAKER_02: She was a princess.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: Bavaria was a different country back then.
18:02
SPEAKER_02: Her father is eventually,
18:05
he has a period of disgrace that I'll describe in a minute that
18:09
sort of destroys
18:10
SPEAKER_02: the family's
18:12
legacy so there's something there's this exacerbating incident
18:15
that brings on this
18:16
delusion i wonder have either of you ever read much about why
18:20
people have different
18:21
delusions especially in history i've read have you ever read
18:25
mike jay's book the
18:27
influencing machine no highly recommend it's about the first
18:32
person who the first
18:34
recorded case of someone suffering from the delusion that their
18:37
mind is being
18:37
SPEAKER_01: controlled by a machine
18:39
how in oh my gosh when was it's amazing it's um it was like in
18:45
the early 19th
18:46
century but the person had been involved in some sort of like
18:50
espionage having to
18:51
do with the french revolution and so it's like really wrapped
18:55
up in that kind of
18:55
like regime change and it's a fascinating story and a really i
19:02
love mike jay he's a
19:02
SPEAKER_01: great uh historian of like kind of oddities
19:06
SPEAKER_02: That is so interesting.
19:07
I read this fantastic book called A History of Delusions by
19:11
Victoria Shepard.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: Can't recommend it enough.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: It's not explicitly 19th century delusions.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: It is many delusions across different centuries.
19:20
But so many of them either have a resurgence in the 19th
19:24
century or new importance
19:25
SPEAKER_02: in the 19th century.
19:27
SPEAKER_02: Because one of the things she writes about is how new technology,
19:30
which seems like very much what you're talking about with this
19:33
Jay situation,
19:34
new technology will when new technology enters the mainstream
19:39
we then see different
19:40
delusions which is why I was thinking so much reading this book
19:44
why today we see so
19:45
SPEAKER_02: many different people who have
19:48
these episodes with ChatGPT where ChatGPT is a friend who's
19:53
telling them to do
19:54
things or ChatGPT is their conduit to another realm or another
19:58
dimension or they're
19:59
explicitly worried about being surveilled inside their own
20:03
brain because we live in
20:04
SPEAKER_02: a world of mass surveillance.
20:05
SPEAKER_02: So many different things happening that bring this delusion about.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's it.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: That's it.
20:11
oh please mabel i was just thinking like i maybe we can talk
20:14
about this later but
20:15
like i'd love to problematize the idea of delusion because i
20:18
also think yes the
20:19
perspective we have now is like a delusion quote unquote from
20:23
the 19th century has
20:24
at this point in history come true like the idea of this man
20:28
who is deluded into
20:29
thinking a machine is controlling his mind like now we have
20:32
people who i would say
20:34
SPEAKER_02: that a machine is controlling their mind
20:36
SPEAKER_02: That's so interesting.
20:38
I think what you see in the 19th century is these fears that
20:41
like then come true
20:43
SPEAKER_02: and either at the time or in our moment,
20:46
SPEAKER_02: like what you're just,
20:47
I just saw a Substack note that someone wrote that like actually
20:51
really upset me
20:51
SPEAKER_02: where someone was like,
20:52
SPEAKER_02: okay,
20:53
SPEAKER_02: my phone is in gray,
20:55
SPEAKER_02: gray scale and I have a brick and I like charge it in the other room.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: If this doesn't work, I'm going to have to get a straight jacket.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, what the
21:02
the fuck is going on with people on their phones like it's too
21:05
much um but anyway
21:09
we can either of you ever two brief side notes my family does
21:14
this thing because i
21:15
have a really big family and we're all always talking over each
21:17
other where we'll
21:18
SPEAKER_02: say you're in the queue
21:19
And then sometimes you have to cue yourself because you think
21:22
like I have two
21:22
SPEAKER_02: things I want to say.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: The first is,
21:24
do either of you ever dream about your phone or dream like
21:29
central parts of your
21:30
SPEAKER_02: dream involve the Internet or involve like digital communication?
21:34
SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
21:35
No,
21:35
but I was kind of,
21:36
like,
21:36
in and out of sleep last night,
21:38
and I was,
21:39
like,
21:40
seeing screens.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Whoa.
21:44
Which I don't really...
21:44
I've never really done that before,
21:47
I don't think.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: But, like, big, like, Times Square type thing.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Weird.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: I grew up because...
21:54
It's happened to me a handful of times where I will have a
21:57
really vivid dream and
21:58
SPEAKER_02: the dream is all about something as basic as an Instagram DM,
22:03
SPEAKER_02: but that is the central engine of the dream.
22:06
And that's always a warning sign to me,
22:08
honestly,
22:09
when I wake up that things are off.
22:10
SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
22:11
SPEAKER_02: if I'm dreaming,
22:12
SPEAKER_02: literally dreaming about sending an email,
22:17
SPEAKER_02: that means I'm spending too much time doing this.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like a robot's dream of electric sheep type thing.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: Literally, I'm like, that's a sign my priorities are so out of whack.
22:26
SPEAKER_02: One of the things I love what you brought up,
22:28
SPEAKER_02: Mabel,
22:29
SPEAKER_02: about sort of problematizing the idea of delusion,
22:31
SPEAKER_02: too,
22:31
SPEAKER_02: which delusion is a really loaded word.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: And especially back in the time of the princess,
22:37
SPEAKER_02: we're using it just blanket to describe anything out of the ordinary.
22:42
But there is also a neurological reason that they think they
22:45
think now brain
22:47
SPEAKER_02: disease and something like
22:51
as commonplace now as a tumor could also be creating these
22:54
delusions or hallucinations.
22:56
But one of the things Victoria Shepard writes about in A
22:59
History of Delusions that
23:00
SPEAKER_02: explains,
23:01
SPEAKER_02: I think,
23:02
a lot of these phenomena sort of blanketly is that the human
23:07
brain has a really
23:08
SPEAKER_02: hard time holding
23:10
holding contradictory truths and also living them so if you are
23:17
someone like the
23:17
princess who you have been told your whole life you have a
23:21
specific path and your
23:23
life will look a certain way and then your life completely
23:27
deviates from that but
23:28
no one is acknowledging it or everyone's pretending that that
23:31
was always the case
23:33
SPEAKER_02: that is where a certain kind of mind either because
23:37
SPEAKER_02: of a history of mental illness or,
23:41
SPEAKER_02: you know,
23:42
a bodily weakness at that point because you're so run down from
23:44
war or suffering or
23:46
SPEAKER_02: other things,
23:47
SPEAKER_02: that's when you're sort of – the door is open to a delusion.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: Like the door opens that way.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: And like, I mean, it's interesting.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Sorry,
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Mabel,
23:55
to also because I like did a little I went to your footnotes
24:00
and I read some of the
24:01
SPEAKER_01: other stuff about the glass delusion.
24:02
Also,
24:02
I didn't have a chance to read the book,
24:04
but there was some other articles.
24:06
And it seems like there's a long history of glass delusion
24:09
amongst royals also,
24:11
SPEAKER_01: which I think is fascinating.
24:13
And I'm sure there's a bias because they're the ones whose
24:16
histories are recorded
24:17
SPEAKER_01: and in that way.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: But
24:20
I think there's also something to like having basically like
24:24
your value being
24:25
SPEAKER_01: placed on staying alive,
24:26
SPEAKER_01: which is royal royalty is like only job.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, we'll get into it.
24:33
But like one of the symptoms of or one of the results of
24:36
Princess Alexandra's glass
24:37
delusion is right that she's so afraid of being shattered and
24:40
broken and has to be
24:41
SPEAKER_02: careful.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: But like,
24:42
SPEAKER_02: if you think of Queen Victoria,
24:43
when she was a princess being raised in what is called the
24:45
Kensington system,
24:46
SPEAKER_02: like she wasn't allowed to walk downstairs by herself.
24:49
SPEAKER_02: She was not allowed to be alone.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: Like that is not diluted.
24:52
Any more so than any sense of a royal family or anyone being
24:56
royal is a delusion.
24:57
SPEAKER_02: And I think you'll talk about this,
25:00
but like the 1848 to 1852 moment is when you see a popular
25:06
uprising around the idea
25:07
SPEAKER_02: that like maybe certain people are not more special than others.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's let me let me read to you this one.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, let me tell you one.
25:16
Let me tell you first sort of how this delusion showed up for
25:20
her and when she
25:20
SPEAKER_02: started manifesting it.
25:23
And then to your point,
25:24
Mabel,
25:25
Victoria Shepard makes a really interesting point about.
25:29
SPEAKER_02: personal contact,
25:30
SPEAKER_02: and I think especially thinking of female royals,
25:33
there's something really interesting there with being literally
25:36
treated like glass
25:37
SPEAKER_02: and told your whole life that you were treated like glass,
25:40
that then to believe that you are glass is not that big of a
25:43
mental leap for
25:44
SPEAKER_02: somebody.
25:45
SPEAKER_02: Really not.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: The way this showed up for the princess is in her 20s,
25:52
SPEAKER_02: she started walking sideways down corridors of her family palace.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: And she already was wearing a costume of big hoop skirts,
26:02
like the costume of the day where she has a certain barrier
26:06
around her already.
26:08
And then she is walking sideways down corridors and being very
26:13
careful with how she
26:15
sits on furniture and how she approaches doorways and
26:18
staircases and thresholds.
26:21
And everyone's noticing this because she's almost moving
26:23
crab-like and very
26:25
SPEAKER_02: carefully around this space.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: I love the visual of a woman in a hoop skirt walking like a crab.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: There's something so amazing about that.
26:37
SPEAKER_02: You can see this first image of her.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: We can go through the images one by one.
26:43
This is a portrait she sat for in 1850 when she had already
26:50
begun telling people
26:51
SPEAKER_02: about the glass piano.
26:54
And it's really interesting to think of what her life was like
26:57
at this point,
26:58
because in 1848 is when her family had already sort of been
27:03
embroiled in scandal.
27:05
SPEAKER_02: Her father,
27:08
SPEAKER_02: Ludwig I,
27:09
SPEAKER_02: king of Bavaria,
27:11
SPEAKER_02: basically spent all of his money trying to give his mistress,
27:15
SPEAKER_02: Lola Montes,
27:16
SPEAKER_02: who is worth an episode in her own right.
27:18
SPEAKER_02: She's a very interesting person.
27:20
trying to give her enough wealth that she could then qualify
27:26
for a noble title.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: He's kind of trying to like launder his reputation with her that way,
27:31
SPEAKER_02: because otherwise she was just a beautiful Bavarian dancer.
27:35
SPEAKER_02: But I think the idea of what we were talking about earlier with being so,
27:43
people have to really work to touch you in this system is so
27:47
apparent in this
27:48
SPEAKER_02: costume even.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: And further down, you can see another undated photo of her.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, portrait of her.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: Another undated portrait of her.
27:56
And this was from when she was,
28:00
this was earlier in her life,
28:01
when she would only wear white.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: And she, sort of an Emily Dickinson moment.
28:07
SPEAKER_02: And she was already sort of had this label as being melancholic.
28:11
SPEAKER_02: And I want to say, what's a good 1950s?
28:17
different yeah eccentric that's totally the word for it
28:23
eccentric so early in her
28:25
life she was only wearing white she had this very very
28:30
warranted again talking
28:31
SPEAKER_02: about problematizing the idea of delusion
28:34
SPEAKER_02: Warranted fear of germs.
28:36
SPEAKER_02: And then her family structure is crumbling around her.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: And at the same time,
28:41
her family is trying to arrange her marriage to this person
28:46
that she actually,
28:47
SPEAKER_02: according to history,
28:48
SPEAKER_02: does have a love connection with.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: And that...
28:52
engagement falls apart when everything starts going to hell
28:55
with her family and
28:56
SPEAKER_02: this mistress scandal.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: So after that,
28:59
SPEAKER_02: the white is abandoned,
29:00
SPEAKER_02: the hygiene fixation is abandoned,
29:02
and instead we have a glass piano that we've swallowed in
29:05
childhood and we're
29:06
SPEAKER_02: walking around trying to preserve.
29:08
SPEAKER_02: So sort of replacing one eccentricity with another,
29:11
but the second one is explicitly about fear of contact with
29:16
humans or with
29:17
SPEAKER_02: surfaces.
29:18
SPEAKER_02: Can I talk about this portrait too that we're looking at?
29:21
SPEAKER_02: Because I learned a little bit about it.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: It was part of this hall that her father,
29:27
SPEAKER_02: the king,
29:27
SPEAKER_02: had in his palace,
29:28
SPEAKER_02: which is aptly called the Nymphenburg Palace.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: And he had this thing called the Hall of Beauties,
29:35
SPEAKER_02: which is 38 portraits of the most beautiful women in Bavaria,
29:39
SPEAKER_02: including Lola Montez,
29:40
SPEAKER_02: his...
29:41
mistress and his daughter princess alexandra oh my god and i
29:45
want to make it this
29:46
is a sidebar i'm cuing this it's i'd like to make a case for
29:49
this as like the
29:50
gooning of the time so here's a picture i'm showing you guys of
29:54
the hall of
29:54
beauties and it was also known for like the diversity of the
29:58
women that he
29:58
SPEAKER_02: represented like on wikipedia it's like it even included a jew um
30:04
SPEAKER_02: And he like took responsibility for these women.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: He paid their dowries.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: He like got them jobs at court and paid them allowances.
30:12
SPEAKER_02: And this is, I like went into a rabbit hole.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: This is not the only hall of beauties.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: This is,
30:17
SPEAKER_02: sorry,
30:17
SPEAKER_02: this is actually his hall of beauties,
30:18
SPEAKER_02: but like at Windsor court,
30:22
SPEAKER_02: there's something called the Windsor beauties,
30:24
SPEAKER_02: which King Charles II created,
30:25
SPEAKER_02: which is like the 10 most hot girls at the time.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: So these royal men would paint,
30:34
have portraits made of all the hottest girls and put them all
30:38
up so they could
30:39
SPEAKER_02: like,
30:40
SPEAKER_02: like gooning.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: No, literally.
30:42
SPEAKER_02: Like take it all in at once.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: Just be surrounded by beauty.
30:46
SPEAKER_02: I actually,
30:47
SPEAKER_02: I love the Windsor beauties the most because they're like,
30:49
SPEAKER_02: they all kind of look exactly the same.
30:52
SPEAKER_02: You took the words out of my mouth.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: I was about to say they all have the same nose and eyes.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean, maybe they're all cousins.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: I know.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, they all have the Habsburg face.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: There's something going on there.
31:03
SPEAKER_02: I also am like,
31:04
SPEAKER_02: there's only 10 and I'm like going,
31:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm showing you guys them and I'm just hitting my arrow key.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, maybe we're looking at the same ones again.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: But like,
31:14
SPEAKER_02: I wonder also for princess Alexandra,
31:16
there's gotta be something else going on here about like being
31:20
fetishized by your
31:21
SPEAKER_02: own father.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:24
SPEAKER_02: It's complicated.
31:25
SPEAKER_02: It's not easy being a princess.
31:29
Fetishized by your own father while your father is also,
31:32
again,
31:32
embroiled in a sex scandal.
31:34
SPEAKER_02: And at the same time, he has to abdicate the throne in shame.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: And it's because the political moment that he's in,
31:42
SPEAKER_02: which is in 1848,
31:45
giving all your money to a woman of dubious origins only just
31:51
goes to show that the
31:52
SPEAKER_02: whole system needs to be overthrown,
31:54
SPEAKER_02: which is happening all over Europe.
31:56
SPEAKER_02: And the person that...
31:59
SPEAKER_02: Princess Alexandra was engaged to be married to is Napoleon's nephew.
32:03
So we also can't discount sort of the ripple effects that
32:08
Europe is already in this
32:11
SPEAKER_02: turbulent moment.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: And it makes...
32:14
SPEAKER_02: in some way,
32:15
the glass delusion that she's experiencing such a footnote to
32:20
her story in the
32:21
SPEAKER_02: moment.
32:22
SPEAKER_02: Like now it is predominantly what she is remembered for.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: But in the moment,
32:27
the fact that she claims to have swallowed a glass piano as a
32:30
child and is afraid
32:31
SPEAKER_02: of being hugged or touched or sat on a very hard chair isn't even,
32:38
it doesn't even make the top three bullet points about her
32:41
relevance to the moment.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:44
SPEAKER_02: Well,
32:44
SPEAKER_02: and I'm sure like,
32:45
you must think about this with all the women to know that you
32:47
write about,
32:48
SPEAKER_02: like,
32:49
what is it that we find interesting about these women versus
32:52
what the moment in the
32:53
SPEAKER_02: moment that they lived in,
32:54
SPEAKER_02: what was notable or interesting about them?
32:59
SPEAKER_02: The 1852 relevance,
33:01
SPEAKER_02: I think,
33:01
comes into play here because as I was writing about her and
33:05
reading about her,
33:07
she's experiencing this glass delusion and telling people about
33:10
it in the time
33:11
SPEAKER_02: between like 1848 to 1851.
33:15
1852 she actually has a writing career that's that's her legacy
33:20
she's a writer and
33:22
i had to do that thing while i was writing the newsletter that
33:26
i hate but it's hard
33:29
to sort of get away from where i was like the the writing was
33:32
the last paragraph
33:33
SPEAKER_02: and as a god oh god am i the glass delusion has my fascination it has the
33:41
SPEAKER_02: the endless exploratory research potential.
33:46
And then when you try and read about her writing career,
33:48
there's honestly very little.
33:50
SPEAKER_02: She was a translator.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: She translated children's stories.
33:54
SPEAKER_02: She wrote new children's stories.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: But at that point in her life, she had had this engagement broken off.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: She and her father were estranged.
34:03
SPEAKER_02: Her father has again abdicated the throne.
34:04
SPEAKER_02: Her family is
34:06
living this sort of half royal life that's so different from
34:10
the one that she had
34:11
SPEAKER_02: been told that she would have.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: And her father at that point had committed her to this blue blooded,
34:17
nunnery for ladies of nobility who couldn't get married and
34:22
couldn't serve their
34:25
SPEAKER_02: male family members in another way.
34:27
SPEAKER_02: So she's living in the nunnery.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: She rises the ranks of the nunnery.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: So she's doing nunnery bureaucracy.
34:34
SPEAKER_02: But then she's writing.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: That's her life.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: That's the rest of her life.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: She dies when she's 49.
34:39
right before she finishes this,
34:41
this book of stories called,
34:43
um,
34:43
lilies of the Valley.
34:44
And it's a collection of short stories that she had actually
34:47
written for adults.
34:48
SPEAKER_02: So there's, it's really interesting.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting that she has this sort of second chapter,
34:54
SPEAKER_02: but we don't know if she's ever cured of this glass delusion.
34:58
SPEAKER_02: That might be something she lived with for the rest of her life.
35:01
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't show up in her writing.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't show up in her stories.
35:05
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't show up in her fiction.
35:06
SPEAKER_02: Um,
35:08
SPEAKER_02: But you know where it probably showed up?
35:10
SPEAKER_02: The convent.
35:12
Because Madeline and I really want to talk to you about this
35:15
amazing essay.
35:17
It's like a kind of body of work that we're both interested in
35:20
that we learned
35:20
SPEAKER_02: about a few years ago,
35:21
SPEAKER_02: which is mostly written about by this art historian Jacqueline Young,
35:26
SPEAKER_02: which is about these medieval...
35:28
SPEAKER_02: This medieval...
35:30
delusion quote-unquote often had by nuns about turning clear as
35:36
crystal in moments
35:39
of like divine inspiration which when I was like thinking about
35:43
Princess Alexandra
35:44
just like came to me and I was like oh this is the same story
35:47
but in a very
35:47
different context and it's they're not royal but they're nuns
35:51
and I think that
35:52
SPEAKER_02: there actually is a connection with
35:55
SPEAKER_02: Victoria Shepard writes something.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: I'll read you two pieces from the book that I thought were interesting.
36:03
Her first mention of Princess Alexandra actually brings up what
36:10
we were talking
36:11
about earlier with sort of being treated as glass and being
36:15
treated as something
36:17
SPEAKER_02: precious.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: She writes,
36:19
Princess Alexandra Amelie of Bavaria believed she had swallowed
36:22
a glass piano and
36:23
SPEAKER_02: insisted for obvious reasons that people should not get too close.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: So this fear of personal contact and this fear of being harmed,
36:32
I think is also really interesting given what we know of her
36:36
father's sex scandal
36:37
and also her broken engagement that people quite literally
36:41
can't get too close
36:42
SPEAKER_02: anymore.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
36:44
SPEAKER_01: and I think in the context of the convent,
36:48
like going back further and then also in some of the other
36:53
glass delusions I was
36:54
SPEAKER_01: reading,
36:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
36:54
there's I think I think it's worth saying that starting in like
36:59
the 15th century
37:00
SPEAKER_01: and going forward.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: So the convent delusion is about crystal.
37:03
It's about rock crystal because glass was not a technology that
37:06
people were widely
37:07
SPEAKER_01: using at the time.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: But in the 15th to 19th centuries, glass is really expensive.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: It's a cutting edge technology.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: It's not like we think of it today where it's ubiquitous.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: And I think that in that time,
37:22
there also emerges this association of glass as sort of the
37:26
opposite of the body
37:27
SPEAKER_01: where the body is solid.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: It's flesh.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: It's damp.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: It's, you know, all of these things.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: It's vulnerable.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:36
and glass is transparent it's light it's like purity and um
37:44
that i i just think
37:45
there's something also in like her kind of trying to protect
37:48
this like purity that
37:49
SPEAKER_02: she is holding within herself also seen her white dressing i mean there's
37:55
definitely a fixation there on holding on to again what
38:00
victoria shepherd writes
38:01
SPEAKER_02: about being forced to live
38:04
SPEAKER_02: a life that's contradictory to what you think of as truth.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:09
SPEAKER_02: That's what sort of opens the door to these things.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: She has this thing that I think is really interesting.
38:13
SPEAKER_02: She writes, Glass is still resonant.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: Anxieties about fragility,
38:17
SPEAKER_02: transparency,
38:18
and personal space are more pertinent now to many people's
38:21
experience of living
38:22
SPEAKER_02: than they've ever been.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: It's an elegant response to the society we have to navigate,
38:26
a society that is increasingly crowded in which modern
38:29
technological advances
38:30
SPEAKER_02: isolate us,
38:31
SPEAKER_02: but also offer apparently boundaryless communication.
38:34
Glass delusion expresses social anxiety,
38:37
which many of us experience today to a lesser extent.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: It allows us to demand protection against drops and shocks.
38:44
yeah and like the thing that the portal that allows us access
38:48
unlimited access to
38:48
other people is a phone that has a glass screen you know like
38:52
the metaphor
38:53
continues and repeats itself but and like as we're talking
38:56
about something i
38:58
because madeline and i both have like have a decorative arts
39:00
background passion
39:01
whatever but like what glass looked like what mirrors looked
39:05
like has varied really
39:07
SPEAKER_02: widely across the history of like
39:09
human creation like have you like when I'm in the ancient
39:12
Egyptian collections at
39:13
the Met like the mirrors that they have are like what look I
39:18
mean partly because of
39:19
their age at this point like the archaeological context but
39:21
it's just like it it's
39:22
SPEAKER_02: an opaque piece of metal that
39:25
SPEAKER_02: that looks like a mirror and then it's shaped like one,
39:27
but like the idea of what you was a reflective surface was very
39:31
different.
39:31
SPEAKER_02: Like that was probably polished.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: So you could see yourself,
39:34
SPEAKER_00: but,
39:34
SPEAKER_02: um,
39:35
SPEAKER_02: and then even like in at Versailles,
39:37
SPEAKER_02: like the hall of mirrors,
39:39
SPEAKER_02: each piece of mirror was like hand blown.
39:42
SPEAKER_02: And so like was warped and,
39:45
SPEAKER_02: you know,
39:45
just had a different texture to it that like so different than
39:48
what it means for me
39:48
SPEAKER_02: to go in my bathroom right now and look at myself.
39:50
SPEAKER_02: Like, um,
39:52
And you see that too in like all the stories across time about
39:56
like people looking
39:57
SPEAKER_02: like narcissists,
39:58
SPEAKER_02: like looking at the reflection in the pond or whatever,
40:00
SPEAKER_02: like that's a very different way of seeing yourself.
40:04
And so these ideas of turning crystal or having a glass piano
40:07
inside of you,
40:08
it's interesting to think about like what that looked like
40:11
opposed to how we're
40:12
SPEAKER_02: imagining it.
40:13
And also thinking about the rest of her life,
40:16
again,
40:17
finding the books she writes is difficult.
40:20
SPEAKER_02: She wrote a series of children's plays,
40:23
SPEAKER_02: so plays to be performed for children,
40:25
SPEAKER_02: translating fairy tales.
40:27
SPEAKER_02: There's something very childlike and preserved about that fixation.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: It's funny because...
40:36
SPEAKER_02: Victoria Shepard writes about this too.
40:37
SPEAKER_02: And I alluded to this earlier,
40:39
SPEAKER_02: but it's hard to tell what could be physical and what could be mental or
40:46
SPEAKER_02: psychological.
40:48
SPEAKER_02: Her life isn't perfect.
40:50
SPEAKER_02: She's a princess.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: And again,
40:52
SPEAKER_02: she keeps that title for the rest of her life,
40:53
SPEAKER_02: even though her father eventually is forced to abdicate.
40:57
She's living in this sort of protected world of the nunnery
41:00
with other noble women
41:02
SPEAKER_02: who are also probably clinging to other delusions,
41:05
SPEAKER_02: literal delusions,
41:06
or metaphorical delusions about their importance and their
41:12
world of nobility and protection.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: She wants to be treated as a treasure,
41:20
SPEAKER_02: but she also is...
41:22
SPEAKER_02: Does she want that,
41:23
or has she just been told her whole life that she's already a
41:26
precious object?
41:27
It's so hard to disentangle all of these things,
41:29
and we don't really know...
41:32
that much more to give us it's also fascinating that it's a
41:36
piano which Mabel and I
41:38
were briefly like considering before what that might signify
41:41
because the glass is
41:43
you know because there are all these other glass delusions that
41:46
there's one story
41:47
that I loved in one of maybe it was in yours or one of the
41:49
other articles I read
41:50
about a guy who he believed his buttocks was made of black and
41:56
his doctor spanked
41:57
SPEAKER_01: him to show him that it wasn't spanked him right out of the problem
42:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: The piano.
42:04
The piano is interesting because it does imply,
42:07
again,
42:07
like a childlike object or something.
42:10
SPEAKER_02: But she swallowed it as a child.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: So you're thinking, what is a glass piano?
42:13
SPEAKER_02: It's like
42:14
SPEAKER_02: Something in a,
42:15
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:15
a Tennessee Williams glass menagerie situation and small enough
42:19
that she can
42:19
SPEAKER_02: swallow it.
42:20
Somebody again is implying like,
42:22
well,
42:22
this is my question that I was going to ask you earlier.
42:25
SPEAKER_02: Is the piano a toy size thing?
42:28
SPEAKER_02: And then it grows with her.
42:29
And that's why it becomes like critical in the 1850 moment
42:33
because it's so big now.
42:35
SPEAKER_02: Or was it always a full size piano?
42:37
SPEAKER_02: Like, what do we know about that?
42:39
SPEAKER_02: We don't know that much about it.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: And Deborah Levy actually has a great...
42:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to send it to you both because it's wonderful.
42:46
SPEAKER_02: She has this radio play she did for the BBC in,
42:50
SPEAKER_02: I think,
42:52
SPEAKER_02: 2010 or 2011,
42:53
SPEAKER_02: where she is...
42:55
SPEAKER_02: It's like a lightly fictionalized retelling of the princess's story.
43:01
SPEAKER_02: And in her telling, it is toy-sized.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: But it's hard to...
43:08
SPEAKER_02: It's toy size, so that's why she is able to continue living.
43:12
SPEAKER_02: She just has to take extreme care with it.
43:15
SPEAKER_02: But we don't have much more to go on.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: And Deborah Levy,
43:20
SPEAKER_02: she's a writer of fiction as well as a writer of nonfiction,
43:22
SPEAKER_02: so she's taking some poetic license here.
43:25
But the piano is interesting because so many other people in
43:30
Glass Delusion.
43:31
There's also a very famous medieval French king who suffers
43:34
from the Glass Delusion.
43:35
SPEAKER_02: It's that their body parts are being turned into glass.
43:39
SPEAKER_02: So she's an interesting case in that she swallowed something glass.
43:43
SPEAKER_02: There's another one,
43:43
SPEAKER_02: Madeline,
43:44
SPEAKER_02: you brought up that,
43:45
SPEAKER_02: you know,
43:46
the doctor spanked this person with glass buttocks to prove to
43:49
him that he's not
43:50
SPEAKER_02: glass.
43:51
SPEAKER_02: A very common solution for delusions in the 19th century is the ruse.
43:58
SPEAKER_02: That's what they call it,
43:59
SPEAKER_02: the ruse,
43:59
where you set up this elaborate scenario to trick someone out
44:04
of their delusion.
44:05
SPEAKER_02: As I was reading Victoria Shepard's book,
44:07
SPEAKER_02: I kept thinking about how you would do that if someone has hiccups.
44:10
SPEAKER_02: You're supposed to scare them or pop out around a corner.
44:12
SPEAKER_02: Hiccups are a delusion.
44:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
44:15
SPEAKER_02: That's how they're treating it.
44:16
So there's another very,
44:17
very famous example of someone who's not an ability.
44:21
SPEAKER_02: So they're just a case study.
44:22
But someone in the 19th century who says that he has glass arms
44:26
and glass hands.
44:28
So what his doctor does is locks him in a room and tells him
44:33
that there's a fire.
44:33
SPEAKER_02: And he starts banging on the door saying, let me out, let me out.
44:36
SPEAKER_02: And then the doctor pops out.
44:37
SPEAKER_02: It's like Scooby-Doo.
44:38
Like the doctor pops out from around the door and goes,
44:40
there's not a fire.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: And also, why aren't you shattered?
44:44
SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden the delusion is cured.
44:46
SPEAKER_02: But we know that that actually doesn't,
44:48
a lot of those stories are probably apocryphal because there's
44:51
a really famous,
44:53
SPEAKER_02: I think 1930s.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: Let me quickly look up this.
44:57
SPEAKER_02: Have you all ever heard of the Christ, the three Christ of Ypsilanti?
45:00
SPEAKER_01: I wish.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: No, that's amazing.
45:03
SPEAKER_02: Great.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: This,
45:06
SPEAKER_02: this doctor,
45:09
SPEAKER_02: again,
45:09
SPEAKER_02: because everybody throughout history and especially throughout history,
45:14
Psychological history and the case lore says the way to cure
45:18
someone of one of
45:20
SPEAKER_02: these illnesses is to trick them,
45:22
SPEAKER_02: to create the ruse and trick them.
45:24
SPEAKER_02: So, okay, 1959, this psychologist is...
45:29
SPEAKER_02: brought together three men claiming to be Jesus Christ,
45:32
SPEAKER_02: who all were under the delusion that they were Jesus Christ reincarnated.
45:35
SPEAKER_02: The Messiah delusion.
45:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:38
SPEAKER_02: It's, again, very- It's a huge thing.
45:40
SPEAKER_02: There's also a Napoleon delusion.
45:41
SPEAKER_02: There were a lot of Napoleons floating around for a period of time.
45:45
SPEAKER_02: But he brings them all to the Ypsilanti State Hospital and says,
45:48
SPEAKER_02: okay,
45:49
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to put them all together.
45:50
They can't all cling to this idea that they are Jesus Christ if
45:56
they're all in a room together.
45:58
SPEAKER_02: And he doesn't tell them he's doing this.
46:00
I mean,
46:00
all of this is wildly unethical to trick people and to not
46:04
treat them seriously.
46:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I need my therapist to do this for me.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: I know.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
46:09
SPEAKER_02: To hoodwink them into like being cured.
46:11
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, he brings them all together and they're not cured.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: So it's a failure.
46:15
SPEAKER_02: So we know that it actually, like modern science has tested this.
46:19
And actually,
46:19
in addition again to being unethical and wrong,
46:23
it doesn't cure them.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: So all of these stories that we hear about people being suddenly cured,
46:28
they're probably yeah well i think i mean i just back to the
46:33
piano of it all i also
46:34
think i mean and this kind of like question of if there's a
46:37
neurological or a
46:38
psychological thing i mean i can hear her clanging down the
46:41
hallway do you know
46:41
SPEAKER_01: what i mean like walking sideways in this big dress with a piano like i
46:46
SPEAKER_01: it's an auditory like delusion, I guess I'm having.
46:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
46:52
And,
46:53
and like I,
46:54
and it's almost like,
46:56
what's the thing Pharrell has where he sees sounds?
46:59
SPEAKER_01: Synesthesia.
47:00
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: It's almost like synesthetic in a way of like,
47:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:07
sort of taking up more space than you need to and like causing
47:10
a commotion and all
47:11
SPEAKER_01: of these things that I think is really interesting.
47:16
SPEAKER_02: And something I've been thinking about while we're talking is like,
47:19
SPEAKER_02: again,
47:20
we have to transport ourselves into the mind of a woman in the
47:24
1840s whose idea of
47:26
SPEAKER_02: her own biology is very different than ours.
47:29
And I've been thinking about because the other glass delusions
47:33
where it's a body
47:33
SPEAKER_02: part,
47:34
SPEAKER_02: it's so,
47:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
47:35
SPEAKER_02: in some way,
47:36
SPEAKER_02: all of these things are like prosthetics.
47:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:39
SPEAKER_02: And they're like part of, but not part of the body.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, we are, we understand what's inside of us.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: Like,
47:48
SPEAKER_02: I don't,
47:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm not like a doctor,
47:50
SPEAKER_02: but I know there's probably not room for a piano inside of me.
47:55
And then I was thinking when Jacqueline Young writes about
47:57
these different
47:59
vision that medieval nuns and monks would have and she talks
48:03
about this vision that
48:05
this 13th century mystic gertrude of helfta had and she writes
48:10
this is a quote i
48:11
don't know that she's quoting but the immaculate womb of the
48:14
glorious virgin as
48:15
transparent as the purest crystal through which her internal
48:18
organs penetrated and
48:19
filled with divinity shown brightly just as gold wrapped in
48:23
silk of various colors
48:24
SPEAKER_02: shines through a crystal
48:26
um indeed one saw the little blossoming boy the only son of the
48:30
highest father
48:30
nurse avidly in delight at the heart of his virgin mother and
48:34
so like there's i
48:36
don't know even like the idea of a divine pregnancy had by a
48:40
virgin mary like if
48:41
that's a more real concept to you and like i i don't know just
48:45
like imagining your
48:46
organs covered in silk threads because like that's your idea of
48:50
like opulence it's
48:51
SPEAKER_02: all it's so interesting like how one pictures the inside
48:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:56
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know what's inside of me.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: I think it's endless, babe.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: It's limitless.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: You could fit a grand piano in you.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: I could.
49:05
Glass as a portal is so interesting,
49:07
what you're talking about with the convent delusion.
49:10
Are these women having this,
49:12
and same with the monks,
49:13
are they having this temporarily?
49:15
Like they are temporarily turned to glass and then turned back,
49:18
I'm assuming?
49:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
49:19
SPEAKER_02: Well,
49:19
SPEAKER_02: one of the things we have,
49:21
SPEAKER_02: I think it depends,
49:22
SPEAKER_02: but like we have the sister book of one of these nun,
49:25
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
49:25
SPEAKER_02: convents.
49:28
And it just,
49:28
it's like great things that happened at the convent since it
49:30
was founded in 1242.
49:31
SPEAKER_02: Great things that happened at the convent.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: And it's like,
49:34
this woman had it while she was praying and this woman had it
49:37
while she was in the
49:37
SPEAKER_02: kitchen.
49:38
SPEAKER_02: Like, I think it varies.
49:40
SPEAKER_02: What were you going to say, Madeline?
49:42
SPEAKER_01: Well,
49:43
SPEAKER_01: sort of related,
49:44
I guess we're I've been reading Under the Banner of Heaven
49:48
because we have an
49:48
upcoming episode about Mormons and sort of unrelated to
49:52
anything in that episode.
49:54
SPEAKER_01: So I feel free to speak on it right now.
49:58
There's like a big discussion in that book because the crime
50:02
that's committed by
50:03
SPEAKER_01: these fundamentalist Mormons as the sort of like anchor of that story.
50:08
One of them gets the death sentence and there's a huge
50:11
negotiation in the courts
50:13
about whether or not because he is believing that he is being
50:17
told to do this by
50:18
SPEAKER_01: God,
50:18
it's a delusion or if it's like a personality disorder and like
50:23
at what point
50:23
SPEAKER_01: religious experience becomes a delusion.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
50:27
SPEAKER_01: At what point, like just believing in God itself is a delusion.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: And like,
50:32
how do you like in the courts define which of those makes you
50:37
mentally unfit to
50:38
SPEAKER_01: like stand trial or like be able to get the death sentence?
50:43
And I'm just I sort of like I think with the con like with the
50:48
sister book,
50:48
it's really hard when you're thinking about medieval nuns who
50:52
are sort of like
50:53
similar to these fundamentalists taught to accept any sort of
50:58
vision or experience
50:59
SPEAKER_01: they have as true.
51:01
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
51:02
SPEAKER_01: As true from God.
51:03
SPEAKER_01: Whereas like you and I might have feelings or things like that,
51:06
SPEAKER_01: or like an idea might pop into our head as a vision,
51:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:10
SPEAKER_01: like,
51:10
SPEAKER_01: and we'd be like,
51:11
SPEAKER_01: I imagined that because it came from within me.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: Whereas like, these are people who are trained to be like, God showed me.
51:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:20
And I think also like with the piano delusion and her going to
51:24
the comment,
51:25
I just can see like how in a world where you're taught that you
51:31
are divine and that
51:33
SPEAKER_01: exact,
51:33
SPEAKER_01: as you've been saying,
51:34
SPEAKER_01: like you're fragile and you can't be touched and all of these things,
51:39
SPEAKER_00: you're precious.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:41
SPEAKER_01: Then something like that, that's like an idea that you might have.
51:45
I mean,
51:47
I think we all like think weird things occasionally about like
51:51
what's going on.
51:51
SPEAKER_01: Not me.
51:52
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
51:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:56
SPEAKER_01: And,
51:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:58
to be taught to like to take that as truth is a sort of like
52:02
that's a mindset that
52:04
SPEAKER_01: people are trained into that we just don't have anymore.
52:07
Like we're taught such a different way of understanding what's
52:10
going on with
52:10
ourselves in the world around us that I think like people it's
52:14
really easy from the
52:16
SPEAKER_01: future to look back and go,
52:17
SPEAKER_01: they were so crazy.
52:19
But the reality is they were just taught a completely different
52:24
way of accepting
52:26
SPEAKER_01: ideas that came to them and where those ideas are coming from.
52:28
SPEAKER_01: And the truth of your body was different.
52:31
And I think we can't discount,
52:33
too,
52:34
how this period of time,
52:36
1848 to 1852...
52:42
SPEAKER_02: being a sexual object to her is a death sentence.
52:46
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
52:47
SPEAKER_02: she's seen it with her father and Lola Montez,
52:51
SPEAKER_02: that not being touched and being,
52:53
SPEAKER_02: the reason her,
52:54
SPEAKER_02: I should have said this earlier,
52:55
SPEAKER_02: the reason her engagement is broken up,
52:57
SPEAKER_02: her engagement with Napoleon's nephew,
53:00
SPEAKER_02: is because her father says she's too mentally insecure to be.
53:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
53:05
SPEAKER_02: But also I was reading that Napoleon's nephew was divorced, right?
53:09
SPEAKER_02: Like it went both ways.
53:11
SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
53:12
SPEAKER_02: They loved each other, but he was defiled in this way.
53:15
SPEAKER_02: But then it becomes about her mental unfitness.
53:19
SPEAKER_02: And we don't know if her father,
53:20
we don't know if her father says that because he just doesn't
53:24
want her to marry
53:25
SPEAKER_02: Napoleon's divorced nephew,
53:27
SPEAKER_02: right?
53:27
SPEAKER_02: Her father could be using her,
53:29
Being mentally unwell as a scapegoat in order to not be
53:34
associated with this anymore.
53:36
SPEAKER_02: Which is,
53:36
SPEAKER_02: again,
53:37
so hypocritical given the fact that he's bankrupted his family
53:40
to support Lola
53:42
SPEAKER_02: Montez.
53:43
SPEAKER_02: But it's hard because Victoria Shepard writes about this too.
53:46
SPEAKER_02: There's so much you can map onto a glass delusion.
53:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
53:50
SPEAKER_02: There is so much because glass is so symbolic.
53:54
SPEAKER_02: And that's, so it goes both ways.
53:56
SPEAKER_02: There's so much for us to map onto it looking back in the past.
54:01
SPEAKER_02: And there's also so much in the moment for them to symbolize and hold.
54:07
And there's what I was saying earlier about a delusion like
54:10
this actually being
54:11
SPEAKER_02: quite logical,
54:13
SPEAKER_02: I think is so relevant.
54:16
SPEAKER_02: There's a whole chapter in this book,
54:17
SPEAKER_02: not to get too off topic,
54:18
SPEAKER_02: but there's a whole chapter in this book about how
54:21
SPEAKER_02: with the advent of the guillotine and the reign of terror in France,
54:27
there is a widespread delusion that people's heads have been
54:31
replaced with other
54:32
SPEAKER_02: heads.
54:33
And we can't discount the fact that that might be because
54:35
people are finally seeing
54:37
SPEAKER_02: decapitated heads
54:39
SPEAKER_02: en masse and popularized images of them.
54:42
And they can't hold that in their minds that they live in a
54:45
world where people's
54:46
SPEAKER_02: heads are rolling in the street.
54:48
And it becomes fashionable to wear a ribbon around your neck as
54:52
if you are Marie Antoinette.
54:54
SPEAKER_02: Everyone wants to look like the decapitated queen,
54:58
SPEAKER_02: but nobody wants to think that their head isn't theirs anymore.
55:01
SPEAKER_02: It's a double standard.
55:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:03
SPEAKER_02: I mean, the end of her life is...
55:06
SPEAKER_02: Ultimately,
55:07
SPEAKER_02: the princess's life,
55:07
SPEAKER_02: the end of the princess's life is ultimately a very sheltered,
55:12
SPEAKER_02: isolated one befitting what the delusion tells her,
55:17
SPEAKER_02: you know,
55:17
SPEAKER_02: or what she believes about the delusion.
55:20
yeah i also think there's wait madeline i can see when you have
55:23
a thought inside
55:24
you too and i want you to no you go you go i was just thinking
55:27
like there's
55:28
something about the glass delusion there's something about
55:32
being a princess and
55:34
being protected and precious versus being like a sexual being
55:38
that feels very 1852
55:39
to me and i also think it's very post 1848 where you see this
55:43
kind of like severing
55:45
SPEAKER_02: of
55:46
kind of a shared delusion in europe yeah like the idea that
55:50
like society is very
55:52
hierarchical is like the people rise up against that in all
55:55
these different
55:56
contexts and i was reading about um back to 1852 one of the
56:01
things that happened
56:03
and one thing i like to do when researching an episode is just
56:05
like i type the year
56:06
SPEAKER_02: that we're doing into like the mets collection search
56:09
And one of the paintings that came up was this Corbet painting
56:12
called Young Ladies
56:13
SPEAKER_02: of the Village,
56:14
SPEAKER_02: which was first shown at the Salon of 1852 in Paris.
56:18
And it's a painting of three women and one child in the
56:23
countryside with there's a
56:25
SPEAKER_02: little girl is barefoot and kind of I think she's like a peasant.
56:28
They're all on the peasant boundary and there's like cows and a
56:31
dog and it's like
56:33
SPEAKER_02: Corbet paintings are,
56:34
SPEAKER_02: I feel like when I close my eyes and envision Corbet,
56:36
SPEAKER_02: it's like sort of greenish brownish.
56:38
SPEAKER_02: Like there's always kind of like a dustiness to everything, which I love.
56:43
But it was very controversial because it was like a not
56:46
idealized representation of
56:47
SPEAKER_02: the countryside.
56:49
And that was like,
56:51
that's contributed in part to like a post 1848 mindset.
56:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
56:55
where people are like less interested or painters on the
56:59
cutting edge are kind of
57:00
like trying to prove that the world is is not as clean as it
57:05
once was like that
57:06
SPEAKER_02: there's that people want to like rise up and change.
57:10
Corbet is like deeply implicated in the revolution of 48 and
57:13
again in 1870 he's
57:14
like I think almost executed after 1871 because he was
57:20
participating in the commune
57:21
SPEAKER_01: and I think also I was thinking something similar Mabel where like
57:25
I think the delusion of not being able to be touched and having
57:27
this glass piano
57:28
inside of you like and the reason that we're relating that to
57:31
these nuns is in part
57:33
because it's like almost a pregnancy delusion and she's
57:38
thinking and I think as
57:39
SPEAKER_01: someone who's like
57:40
living through what is in Germany like an unsuccessful attempt
57:45
to remove monarchy
57:46
and then having her engaged to Napoleon's nephew in the period
57:51
of time where Louis
57:52
Napoleon's installing the Second Empire and kind of taking back
57:56
over democracy.
57:58
This idea of like continuity of of monarchy is really
58:02
interesting in the sense of
58:03
like she's been raised her whole life to believe probably that
58:06
her job is to have a
58:07
SPEAKER_01: son.
58:08
yes yes yeah and so to be like in this moment where that
58:13
actually is no longer how
58:14
countries choose their governments in the same way anymore or
58:18
are trying not to
58:19
where it's like not about familial line and about monarchical
58:25
rule and also to like
58:28
sort of be between the German context and the French context in
58:31
that she's just
58:33
like positioned in a really interesting way to have this kind
58:35
of like false
58:36
SPEAKER_01: pregnancy of a pianist
58:39
instead of an heir yes yeah which I love I love I love her for
58:46
that well and I was
58:48
also trying to quickly remind myself like the Napoleon part is
58:53
really interesting
58:54
too because I think part of what's going on in Germany in 1848
58:58
is like an attempt
58:59
SPEAKER_02: to dismantle a
59:03
system that Napoleon had helped kind of like expedite by
59:06
helping create the
59:07
collapse of the Holy Roman Empire like the sort of feudal state
59:12
quality of Germany
59:14
which was like it was like 40 different small little states
59:16
like it's all a
59:17
delusion anyway and and we are even more deluded time and time
59:22
again to think of
59:22
Germany as like one unified place yeah I'm like the nation
59:25
state when unification
59:27
SPEAKER_01: was do you know that
59:29
SPEAKER_01: no girl isn't that much later like isn't i think it might be the 70s no
59:38
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
59:39
The thing that is interesting about Ludwig I's children who are
59:46
not the princess
59:48
SPEAKER_02: are that they do go on to,
59:50
SPEAKER_02: I think one of his sons becomes a count of Greece or is ruling in Greece.
59:57
SPEAKER_02: Another one of his sons is, I just was looking this up.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_02: Or, yeah, they are all scattered across Europe.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_02: Oh, Italy.
1:00:07
I mean,
1:00:07
they are all scattered across Europe in a way that does feel
1:00:11
like of a much older time.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_01: It's like a big cusp moment, I think.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_01: The other thing that we haven't talked about that is just,
1:00:22
and maybe it's like more complex than I am able to articulate
1:00:26
in this moment,
1:00:27
but like glass in the moment of 1852 is kind of like teetering
1:00:31
on the edge of like
1:00:31
this historical association of glass as kind of like related to
1:00:35
alchemy and like
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: very technologically advanced in a kind of like very different way.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: And then it's right after 1851.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_01: And so you're also at the beginning of this idea of glass and
1:00:46
architecture and a glass utopia as like the idea of what
1:00:50
modernity could be yeah
1:00:53
and so like in the following years you get like the beginning
1:00:56
of all these big
1:00:57
glass buildings and then into like the you know early 20th
1:01:01
century where you have
1:01:02
SPEAKER_01: like someone like bruno tout seeing glass as this like beautiful utopian
1:01:08
SPEAKER_01: possibility
1:01:10
You bring up something really interesting because Victoria
1:01:13
Shepard writes about
1:01:14
SPEAKER_02: this in her book.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_02: She,
1:01:16
SPEAKER_02: again,
1:01:17
talking about how new technology is so often a contributing
1:01:22
factor to the phenomena
1:01:25
SPEAKER_02: that we see,
1:01:25
SPEAKER_02: whether it be the guillotine or chat GPT.
1:01:28
And one of the things she writes about is how glass is not
1:01:33
really mass manufactured
1:01:35
SPEAKER_02: for a very long time.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_02: And glass is a craft...
1:01:40
SPEAKER_02: the Isle of Murano in Venice,
1:01:42
glass is a very small handicraft until we start seeing castle
1:01:48
glass and highly
1:01:50
SPEAKER_02: refined glass in windows.
1:01:52
But there's more examples of people having this glass delusion
1:01:56
in the 19th century
1:01:57
SPEAKER_02: than they are having delusions about steam trains,
1:01:59
SPEAKER_02: for example.
1:02:00
The thing she writes about is why is it that glass is so
1:02:04
persistent when something
1:02:06
SPEAKER_02: like the steam train or something like
1:02:09
SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to remember what she writes about,
1:02:11
but something else that is like a much a much has a much bigger
1:02:16
footprint on the
1:02:17
SPEAKER_02: daily life.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_02: Like, what is it about glass?
1:02:19
And I think what it is that you two have just described is that
1:02:22
there is this
1:02:23
SPEAKER_02: religious imagery,
1:02:24
SPEAKER_02: but also this like sort of precious artifact.
1:02:28
symbolism that makes it scarier yeah and also like I have a
1:02:34
fixation with the
1:02:35
history of glass and like one of the things that always strikes
1:02:38
me is how personal
1:02:39
glass is like when when Louis XIV decides that he wants to be
1:02:43
able to make glass in
1:02:44
France what he has to do is send people like corporate not
1:02:49
corporate sorry royal
1:02:51
SPEAKER_02: like spies have to go to Murano and physically kidnap the glass makers
1:02:57
SPEAKER_02: What?
1:02:58
SPEAKER_02: He has to get glass into France.
1:03:00
He has to go and kidnap these glass makers and have them teach
1:03:04
French manufacturers
1:03:05
SPEAKER_02: how to make glass.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_02: And then also like throughout most of human history,
1:03:09
SPEAKER_02: the way that you made glass was by blowing it.
1:03:12
SPEAKER_02: And so there's a lot of stuff about like the bubble,
1:03:15
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:03:15
SPEAKER_02: like if you've seen these images of people blowing glass,
1:03:17
SPEAKER_02: like that is breath.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_02: Like glass is human breath distilled.
1:03:21
And there's also stuff like what Madeline's talking about with
1:03:23
the Crystal Palace
1:03:25
SPEAKER_02: and also the rise of like basically broken windows,
1:03:28
SPEAKER_02: not like in the kind of like 90s,
1:03:30
SPEAKER_02: like tough on crime way,
1:03:32
but also like in the idea that it becomes this important
1:03:35
political symbol to
1:03:36
SPEAKER_02: shatter windows in city streets.
1:03:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_02: And so like, but you're, you're shattering like solidified breath.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_02: Like,
1:03:43
SPEAKER_02: I just think it's,
1:03:45
SPEAKER_02: it,
1:03:45
SPEAKER_02: and it's this like liminal,
1:03:46
SPEAKER_02: like we decide that glass is a boundary,
1:03:48
SPEAKER_02: right?
1:03:48
SPEAKER_02: Like most,
1:03:49
SPEAKER_02: like if you look at the heist at the Louvre,
1:03:51
like all those robbers had to do was decide I'm going to cut
1:03:54
that glass window
1:03:56
SPEAKER_02: because it's nothing it's air.
1:03:57
Um,
1:03:57
you know,
1:04:00
like,
1:04:00
I just think like glass is a shared delusion that we all
1:04:03
participate in.
1:04:05
One of the case studies that Victoria Shepard writes about with
1:04:09
a glass delusion is
1:04:11
SPEAKER_02: a man points at a window and says to his doctor.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_02: What do you see?
1:04:17
SPEAKER_02: And the doctor says, oh, I see blue sky and clouds.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_02: And he says, but you're not seeing the glass.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_02: That's how you're not seeing me.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm obsessed with that.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_01: That's really interesting.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm also so interested in glass cases at museums.
1:04:34
You think you're seeing the object within it,
1:04:36
but you're really seeing the glass.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_02: Glass is the thing that you see but can't see.
1:04:41
SPEAKER_02: And that you're actually seeing yourself.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_02: And then you're seeing people take pictures of things in glass objects.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_02: So it's like glass through glass through glass.
1:04:49
One of the things that Shepard writes about the brain that I
1:04:53
think is really
1:04:54
SPEAKER_02: interesting is,
1:04:55
SPEAKER_02: and this book came out in,
1:04:57
SPEAKER_02: I think,
1:04:57
SPEAKER_02: 2020.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure there have been, 2022.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure there have been
1:05:03
SPEAKER_02: advances since then.
1:05:04
So any neuroscientists,
1:05:05
I basically can guarantee you that nobody listening.
1:05:08
You're going to get an email from one person who goes as the
1:05:14
neuroscience.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_02: Memorial Sloan Kettering.
1:05:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I would be amazed if that was true.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_02: There is this theory right now that brain disease or brain damage that,
1:05:28
SPEAKER_02: that leads to hallucination or delusion is,
1:05:31
SPEAKER_02: is actually related to whether or not you have damage or lesions
1:05:35
SPEAKER_02: on the left side of your brain or the right side of your brain.
1:05:38
And the theory posits that right lobe lesions stop a person
1:05:44
regulating people,
1:05:45
SPEAKER_02: places,
1:05:46
SPEAKER_02: or body parts in relation to the self.
1:05:48
And then the left side steps in with a false explanation and a
1:05:53
story as to why that's true.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_02: And then the left side is sort of telling you a narrative about that.
1:06:01
SPEAKER_02: And if you have lesions on the left side,
1:06:03
SPEAKER_02: It's associated with having delusions of persecution or guilt.
1:06:07
There are all sorts of examples throughout history of people
1:06:09
saying,
1:06:10
I've done something so bad.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_02: I've killed the king.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_02: And they say the king is still alive.
1:06:14
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, no, I've killed him.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_02: I've killed him.
1:06:16
SPEAKER_02: And I'm living with this guilt for what I've done.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_02: And that could be dependent on where the lesions are.
1:06:23
So I read it and I'm really excited because I thought,
1:06:26
oh,
1:06:26
this is so nice.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_02: And then I thought, is that a little too neat?
1:06:29
Maybe I just like that because I'm a writer and it's sort of an
1:06:33
easy way to do it.
1:06:33
But there's so much more about the brain and what could be
1:06:38
contributing to this.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:40
SPEAKER_02: that we still don't know.
1:06:42
It's like amazing how little probably we know how little more
1:06:47
we know about the way
1:06:48
SPEAKER_01: the brain works than they did in 1852.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_02: Really good point.
1:06:52
SPEAKER_02: Really good point.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:06:54
Like I think the fact that we're still kind of enamored of this
1:06:56
story and like how
1:06:58
SPEAKER_01: did she think that is like case in point.
1:07:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm like we know a fair bit more.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say that.
1:07:08
SPEAKER_01: We know a bit more about the brain.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_01: I know, but my grandfather had a traumatic brain injury and he... TBI?
1:07:17
SPEAKER_01: What's TBI?
1:07:18
SPEAKER_01: Traumatic brain injury.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
1:07:23
SPEAKER_01: I was like, TMI?
1:07:24
Yeah.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_01: Please don't talk about rude.
1:07:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, he dead, but he, um, I, I just, I like talked or my mother did.
1:07:34
SPEAKER_01: I was little at the time,
1:07:35
SPEAKER_01: but my mom spent a lot of time talking to the neurologist about like,
1:07:38
SPEAKER_01: because he,
1:07:39
he was like fine and totally functional except for the fact
1:07:42
that he was like that
1:07:43
SPEAKER_01: shit insane afterwards.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_01: Um,
1:07:45
Like he would do like he would take he would hit the road and
1:07:49
like call someone two
1:07:50
SPEAKER_01: weeks later from a pay phone and Jackson being like,
1:07:53
SPEAKER_01: I've got thirty dollars in my pocket and I don't know how to get home.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_02: And he was physically fine,
1:07:58
SPEAKER_02: like physically fine,
1:07:59
SPEAKER_01: able to drive like I mean,
1:08:01
SPEAKER_01: he wasn't really meant to drive,
1:08:02
SPEAKER_01: but he did.
1:08:04
um like and he had been a very like successful you know
1:08:08
contributing member of
1:08:09
society before this and he like he would just do like the most
1:08:13
bizarre things but
1:08:14
there was no real explanation for it other than that he had
1:08:17
just had a brain injury
1:08:18
and they like couldn't locate you know like what exactly was
1:08:22
going on well were you
1:08:24
SPEAKER_02: guys ever interested in phineas gage
1:08:27
SPEAKER_02: That's the guy with the nail in his head.
1:08:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:08:30
He was a man who got a railroad spike through the head and it
1:08:34
went through his left
1:08:35
SPEAKER_02: frontal lobe.
1:08:36
SPEAKER_02: And he became a totally different person.
1:08:39
SPEAKER_02: Like he became.
1:08:41
SPEAKER_02: a criminal, right?
1:08:42
SPEAKER_02: Like, didn't he create a, I think he was a bank robber after that.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_02: I think he was like a criminal and a bad guy.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I have before that he was a good guy.
1:08:52
SPEAKER_02: He was like a normal railroad worker.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_02: A man about town.
1:08:58
SPEAKER_02: And I think he was a sweet guy.
1:09:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, but like his survival was fascinating.
1:09:04
SPEAKER_02: And then the personality change was fascinating.
1:09:06
SPEAKER_02: And I think it like had a big impact on how we understand the brain.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_02: Um,
1:09:10
yeah wow Susanna Callahan uh Susanna Callahan wrote a book
1:09:16
called Brain on Fire My
1:09:17
Month of Madness have either of you ever read it I've come
1:09:20
across it but I know
1:09:22
isn't there a movie about it oh there might be yeah she's she's
1:09:25
incredible she's a
1:09:27
remarkable journalist and she also has a ton of other books
1:09:29
that are great but one
1:09:30
SPEAKER_02: of the things she writes about is I think she has a um
1:09:35
SPEAKER_02: She has a tumor that is not even a brain tumor,
1:09:38
SPEAKER_02: but it's a tumor that the pressure,
1:09:40
SPEAKER_02: it creates pressure on the,
1:09:42
SPEAKER_02: on the organs.
1:09:43
SPEAKER_02: I can't remember the exact science,
1:09:45
but one of the things she writes about is that she has
1:09:48
delusions of paranoia.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_02: She's convinced her partner is cheating on her.
1:09:52
SPEAKER_02: She has moments of extreme catatonia.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_02: Like there's so much of what someone like the princess would have been
1:09:58
SPEAKER_02: characterized as melancholic and
1:10:00
that today we would we would see as a side effect of brain
1:10:05
disease so there's and
1:10:07
of course so many of these um so many of these royal lines in
1:10:11
this time are you
1:10:13
know you're marrying your cousin you are marrying along the
1:10:16
same like we can't
1:10:17
SPEAKER_02: discount so many of these of these things
1:10:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_02: Well,
1:10:22
SPEAKER_02: also,
1:10:22
I'm reading that Phineas Gage ended up being an exhibit in a
1:10:27
living museum,
1:10:27
SPEAKER_02: like Barnum's American Museum,
1:10:29
SPEAKER_02: which had living people.
1:10:30
SPEAKER_02: But it wasn't the circus, but obviously it is a proto-circus situation.
1:10:35
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like,
1:10:36
there's also the protection of being a princess where you don't
1:10:38
become a stage
1:10:40
SPEAKER_02: animal,
1:10:40
SPEAKER_02: basically.
1:10:41
SPEAKER_02: Like you're not a trick pony.
1:10:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:10:43
SPEAKER_02: And we protect those deluded people in a different way.
1:10:46
SPEAKER_02: You have the protection of class.
1:10:47
I mean,
1:10:48
you have the protection of class and also the protection of
1:10:50
space.
1:10:51
I know we were talking about how,
1:10:55
you know,
1:10:55
oh,
1:10:56
you can't have a glass delusion in Brooklyn.
1:10:58
SPEAKER_02: You would be crushed.
1:11:00
But that is also a protection and a privilege that she – I
1:11:04
think she actually did
1:11:05
SPEAKER_02: die in the palace.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_02: She didn't die in the nunnery.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_02: She, like, comes back to the palace to die.
1:11:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:11:11
and the palace where she's from i was reading about it
1:11:14
nymphenburg palace is like
1:11:16
so enormous it's bigger than versailles like it's just it's the
1:11:20
craziest context in
1:11:21
which to feel like you can't touch any walls or furniture it's
1:11:24
like babe there's
1:11:25
nothing but space like wow you can't have that fear of touching
1:11:31
any surfaces in the
1:11:33
SPEAKER_02: usual like schedule or hovel or whatever you know yeah
1:11:37
SPEAKER_02: You all should totally do an episode on living museums, by the way.
1:11:40
SPEAKER_02: I would read so much about that.
1:11:43
SPEAKER_02: Read, listen.
1:11:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:45
SPEAKER_01: There's a really good book that's disturbingly called Human Zoos.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_01: That's about it.
1:11:51
SPEAKER_01: You should check it out if you're interested.
1:11:52
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll reread it and we'll do an episode.
1:11:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we should do that.
1:11:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:11:58
I mean,
1:11:58
Phineas Gage aside,
1:12:00
most of it is like obviously colonialism and like horrific
1:12:03
racism.
1:12:04
So it's harder to talk about than a railroad spike through the
1:12:07
head,
1:12:08
but it is fascinating.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_02: I did a newsletter on a woman who, I mean, it's a very sad story.
1:12:15
SPEAKER_02: Like the reason she was exhibited in one of these living museums is
1:12:20
SPEAKER_02: She was a Chinese woman who had her feet bound.
1:12:23
SPEAKER_02: And so she was exhibited for that reason.
1:12:25
And they just created a room where she would sit and people
1:12:28
would walk through and stare at her.
1:12:30
SPEAKER_02: Western people, obviously.
1:12:32
yeah stare at her yeah and that was that was her life yeah it's
1:12:35
so crazy yeah it's
1:12:37
just wild that that was like an attraction yeah i think if ever
1:12:43
we do this episode
1:12:43
there have there are stories about like some people who were
1:12:46
brought from the
1:12:48
colonies to do exhibits at world's fairs who like really pushed
1:12:51
back against some
1:12:52
SPEAKER_01: of this stuff so yeah i think that that would be maybe we'll flag that
1:12:58
okay i'm like huh i'm i'm staring off in this space yeah you
1:13:02
all ever heard about
1:13:02
the coney island incubators i want to look up if this is a 19th
1:13:07
century thing yes i
1:13:08
think that might have been in like the 20s maybe yeah it says
1:13:12
early 1900s yeah that
1:13:16
the one of the first sideshow attractions yeah babies and
1:13:20
incubators because it was
1:13:22
SPEAKER_01: a
1:13:22
a new technology yeah I mean I the other thing that I've been
1:13:27
sort of thinking
1:13:27
we're sort of we're drifting away from right it says 19 18 yeah
1:13:32
sorry I took no no
1:13:34
no I I love it but I'm just uh the the other thing that I've
1:13:40
been thinking about
1:13:41
SPEAKER_01: like throughout is kind of the fascination with
1:13:45
the study of anatomy and particularly female anatomy and the
1:13:49
idea that like so much
1:13:51
early anatomical study was about basically like trying to see
1:13:56
what was inside of a
1:13:57
woman it was like men curious about and so the incubator is
1:14:00
kind of like the final
1:14:01
boss of that where you're watching literally a baby like be
1:14:06
finished yeah yeah the
1:14:08
SPEAKER_01: fourth trimester
1:14:10
yeah exactly oh yeah and we're seeing like ever more technology
1:14:16
that seeks to
1:14:17
replace parts of like the female reproductive system like yeah
1:14:21
you can get your
1:14:22
eggs extracted you can have the egg fertilized outside of you
1:14:25
you can have the
1:14:25
surrogate which is also a human being like there's the glass
1:14:30
piano is now outside
1:14:31
SPEAKER_02: of us and you know the glass piano is the incubator
1:14:36
yeah my jaw just dropped with what you said I was like yeah a
1:14:39
galaxy brain
1:14:40
happening right right now I know I'm like I mean I've always
1:14:43
been obsessed with
1:14:44
kind of the idea that all of this stuff ultimately goes back to
1:14:47
like in the year
1:14:50
1400 some guy being like I would really like to cut like this
1:14:54
like sexual fantasy
1:14:55
about like seeing what is going on inside of a woman it's like
1:14:58
the inaccessible
1:14:59
SPEAKER_01: like mystery the great mystery for men is like what's in there yeah
1:15:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of cool to be like, it's not what you think.
1:15:07
SPEAKER_01: It's a glass piano.
1:15:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_03: And don't get too close.
1:15:13
SPEAKER_02: Don't get too close.
1:15:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:15:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:15:17
SPEAKER_02: Now that we've reached the literal edges of the human galaxy.
1:15:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:15:25
SPEAKER_02: I think that we had an amazing journey.
1:15:27
SPEAKER_02: I feel very stated.
1:15:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very stated.
1:15:32
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for coming on.
1:15:34
SPEAKER_01: This was so fun.
1:15:35
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:15:35
SPEAKER_02: This was great.
1:15:36
SPEAKER_02: I love that we, I feel like we, we had a journey.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we did.
1:15:41
SPEAKER_01: I think we broke new ground.
1:15:42
SPEAKER_01: I know.
1:15:43
SPEAKER_02: I'm like in a different place than where we started.
1:15:45
SPEAKER_01: I know.
1:15:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm like Mabel, where'd you go?
1:15:47
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:15:49
SPEAKER_01: I feel amazing.
1:15:50
SPEAKER_02: Thank you both for having me.
1:15:52
SPEAKER_02: This was a delight.
1:15:53
SPEAKER_01: thank you thank you so much this was yeah so awesome hello you've reached
1:16:01
1-800-1800 1-800-1800 i have a burning question 1-800-1800
1:16:06
1-800-1800 i have a
1:16:07
SPEAKER_00: burning question