Latest / The SEANC View / Budget Raises, Tax Amendment, and the Craggy Closure

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Budget Raises, Tax Amendment, and the Craggy Closure · The SEANC View

• 0:00
  Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Scenic View podcast. I'm your host, Jonathan Owens, along with Suzanne Beasley, Government Relations Director today. We have a very small crew, but we're going to power through. Just you and me, Suzanne, what do you think?
• 0:25
  I know. I think everybody better look out.
• 0:27
  Lots of things going on, people all over the place, so just us. But we do have some topics to get to, and we'll have a special guest at the end of the episode, so be sure to stick around for that. But first, let's just talk about what's going on at the legislature, and since we're a week removed from the big budget raises announcement, is there any update on that?
• 0:50
  There is not, but this week is just constitutional amendment week. The Senate was busy hearing the constitutional amendments yesterday. The House is busy hearing constitutional amendments today. At the time we're recording this, they're still in session. I'm looking at the dashboard right now, and they are on Senate Bill 1080, which is the one everybody calls the income tax constitutional amendment.
• 1:16
  And just so everybody understands what happens with these, once they pass, then they will be put on the ballot in November for the public to vote on.
• 1:25
  So, yeah, the one about income tax, is that similar to like the Tabor law?
• 1:30
  Yeah, some of that mix. The Republicans are for this, because they're all about lowering taxes. The Democrats, they don't want to increase your taxes either, but their big concern is how are we going to run the state if we keep cutting streams of revenue?
• 1:46
  Yeah, and that's a concern we have as well, I mean, because public services are funded, obviously, by tax revenue.
• 1:54
  It was kind of interesting, because Representative Kidwell was speaking just a little while ago on the bill, and he made the point that the government is here to provide services. So I was a little bit torn between, well, you're right, you're absolutely right, Representative, but how are you going to pay for those services if you're cutting income tax down to the core?
• 2:18
  That's kind of the crux of our whole, so we released a dashboard about vacant jobs last week. You can see it at jobsdata.scenic.org. I got a lot of attention, several news stories, but, you know, the basic fundamental point that we made was it all comes down to pay. We're not paying people enough, people aren't taking the jobs, and taxpayers are suffering because of it.
• 2:43
  That's it, and then there's been all the conversation about cutting vacant positions that have been vacant for a while, and that's a whole other issue, because positions are vacant because the state's not paying a livable wage for people to come to work for the state and make it and make ends meet.
• 2:59
  So it's not that the state doesn't need those positions to provide services, they do. We've got employees doing the work of two and three positions, so cutting positions is not going to be the way to get ourselves out of this situation.
• 3:14
  And unfortunately, taxpayers and, you know, state employees and retirees are taxpayers, too. You know, taxpayers are the ones that are going to suffer. You're going to see more situations like we did with DMV, you know, struggling to provide the services.
• 3:25
  I think it was, it's since 2009, we have two million more citizens of North Carolina, and we have fewer state employees than we had in 2009 providing services. So if that doesn't make the case for the problem that we're facing in North Carolina and providing critical services, I don't know what does.
• 3:44
  Last week's episode, we discussed the COLAs for retirees, and there's even a part of that that is tied to investment in public services and in jobs and active employees, right?
• 3:56
  Yeah, there is. And the retirement system administrator, Executive Administrator Sam Watts, came and spoke to our board last weekend. But the big thing is, there are more people receiving benefit checks than there are employees paying into the system. That's a problem.
• 4:11
  And we have similar to or fewer employees than we had in 2009 with two million more people. And that is limiting what we're putting into this, what the employees are putting into the system.
• 4:25
  Yeah, which basically means, I mean, for the sustainability of the retirement system, that's an issue. But it basically means that state government, the General Assembly, is going to have to appropriate more funding to the retirement system to reach the marks that they need to meet to keep the system functioning.
• 4:44
  That part of that three-legged stool that we talk about where the employee contribution is going into the system, that's where we're suffering because we've got so many vacancies.
• 4:55
  And how that affects retiree COLAs is it takes $586 million to do a 1% COLA for retirees right now. If the legislator is having to pick up the slack from not having enough employees paying into the system, then they're never going to be able to provide that COLA, right?
• 5:13
  Yeah, that's exactly right. And they will speak to that because we had to put more money in the system to keep it going is why you're not getting a COLA funded from the General Assembly.
• 5:24
  It all comes down to investment and an amendment like this is limiting what you can invest.
• 5:30
  Yes.
• 5:31
  Plain and simple.
• 5:32
  Yes.
• 5:33
  So it'll be interesting to see how the voters, I mean, it's hard to imagine voters not approving an income tax cap, you know, because no one likes to pay taxes.
• 5:43
  Yeah, I mean, it sounds great.
• 5:46
  But is it the right thing to do? Like, is it the fiscally sound thing to do as a government? We'll see.
• 5:53
  What they're counting on is for people just to hear that capital and income tax and vote.
• 6:00
  And I'm sure it's about turnout, too.
• 6:02
  Yeah, it is. It is. Just getting people to the polls.
• 6:05
  Yeah. So we had a little bit of news this week about the budget, though. Lawmakers found $2 billion extra. Where did that come from?
• 6:14
  Always fascinated how money just kind of drops out of nowhere when the time is good.
• 6:21
  I wish they would do it. I wish they would do it at my house. $2 billion show up.
• 6:25
  I can do a little something with that. It might even work in a pay raise for state employees.
• 6:31
  Yeah. So that's you. The state's got the money.
• 6:35
  Yeah.
• 6:36
  Clearly to, you know, fund a more meaningful pay increase than 3 percent for state employees.
• 6:44
  So I'll look forward to the conversation picking back up after these constitutional amendments are through working their way through the process.
• 6:55
  Another slight, I guess, kind of budget related story, Aggie Correctional Institution in, is it Asheville or is it outside of Asheville?
• 7:05
  Woodfin, it says, is closing in the middle of June, from what I can gather here.
• 7:12
  That's sad. They said there's 77 employees there total.
• 7:16
  The main reason they gave was they just can't get people to work there for the pay.
• 7:23
  Yeah. I mean, starting salary for a correctional officer is $37,000 and some change. Nobody can live off of that.
• 7:30
  And especially in somewhere like Asheville where the costs of living is so high out there.
• 7:37
  So these folks are already driving from other areas to come to work, to Craggy. So we still have some questions about that.
• 7:44
  So we, that brings us to our guest who will be joining us shortly.
• 7:48
  The Chief Operating Officer of the Department of Adult Corrections is going to be on to talk to us about that and some other topics.
• 7:56
  She'll give us the details, I guess. So we'll get into Craggy a little more with her.
• 8:00
  We did get a lot of news requests about that story, though. A lot of media in Asheville were looking into it.
• 8:06
  And you worked with someone up there, too.
• 8:09
  Ms. Watkins had a tweet about it when we first heard about that story.
• 8:13
  She said, North Carolina's population has grown by 20% over the last 20 years, but we have closed 22% of our prisons.
• 8:21
  Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. Yeah, that's huge.
• 8:26
  And, you know, you have to take into consideration where the employees of these prisons, they're being shifted out to other facilities.
• 8:33
  Which, I mean, that's great if there's one that's not too far away in your neck of the woods.
• 8:38
  But, yeah, we look forward to talking to Ms. Hill about how the department is going to handle all of that.
• 8:45
  Yeah, I think that's pretty much all I have for the news section. Do you have anything else you want to mention?
• 8:51
  I think that's it.
• 8:53
  Okay, we'll get right into the interview here. And thanks for joining us this week.
• 9:03
  Hello, everyone. Today, our guest is Tamara Hill.
• 9:12
  She is the chief operating officer for the Department of Adult Correction.
• 9:17
  She is the second in command of the agency.
• 9:20
  So she has lots of responsibilities and she's a great resource for us.
• 9:25
  Welcome to the podcast. First off, how's it going?
• 9:28
  Well, thank you for having me. It's going quite well.
• 9:30
  It's been a busy week already and it's only Wednesday.
• 9:32
  Yeah.
• 9:33
  But I'm glad to be here.
• 9:34
  True. I woke up this morning thinking, well, is it Friday yet?
• 9:37
  Yeah. It seems to slow down when it's budget time, too, right? Or maybe it speeds up. What do you think, Suzanne?
• 9:44
  I think it's speeding up a little bit.
• 9:45
  Okay. Okay. So, yeah, let's maybe just jump right in. Tell us a little bit about yourself, first off.
• 9:51
  I saw that you've been in state government for two decades, right? A long time?
• 9:56
  Two decades. Yeah. I'm a lawyer. I am a 30-year-ago graduate of the University of North Carolina School of Law.
• 10:04
  And I have practiced in a lot of different areas. I've been an assistant district attorney.
• 10:09
  I've been an assistant attorney general, a special deputy attorney general, deputy general counsel with DPS and the Highway Patrol and ALE, state capital police.
• 10:18
  Most of my career in state government has been centered on representing, in some form or fashion, the law enforcement and corrections sides of our government.
• 10:28
  Wow. So before we get into the hot topics, what drove you to public service?
• 10:33
  My father was a police officer in the 70s in Hickory, which is where I'm from.
• 10:38
  And I remember saying to him, when I was a little girl, I wanted to be a lawyer.
• 10:43
  And I went to the DA's office after about two years of private practice, and I really enjoyed that work.
• 10:50
  I really enjoyed the fact that the state was entrusting me to make the right decision.
• 10:56
  It wasn't the best paid legal work, but it certainly was noble work and it's worthy work.
• 11:03
  And I have tended to gravitate back toward state service throughout my career.
• 11:10
  Well, something you just said there leads right into our first topic.
• 11:14
  The budget part, the raises part of the budget, came out a couple weeks ago.
• 11:19
  What was the initial reaction from the department over what they proposed?
• 11:24
  Well, we're always going to be thrilled if there's recognition that our folks are not adequately paid.
• 11:30
  I'm going to say that first and foremost.
• 11:32
  We are very, very happy that the legislature is finally seeing that our folks have been underpaid for a long time.
• 11:38
  We're hopeful that they will continue to keep these raises that they have said that they're going to have in their budget.
• 11:44
  We're hopeful that they will continue to keep them there.
• 11:47
  But we also are mindful that it doesn't nearly affect everyone that deserves a raise.
• 11:54
  There's not been any mention of compression pay so that the folks who are getting the 15 percent that they've talked about
• 12:02
  are not going to be making more than their supervisors who've been there for years.
• 12:06
  There's been no mention of that.
• 12:08
  We didn't see any mention about our nurses and our medical staff.
• 12:13
  And they're a vital part of our agency as well, not to mention the folks who are not in certified correctional and probation positions.
• 12:22
  So while we are very grateful that they have begun the talk of bringing our people to where they deserve to be,
• 12:30
  as you know, we are among the lowest, if not the lowest, in the country in how much we pay.
• 12:35
  It's just the beginning.
• 12:36
  And we are hopeful that there will be more that will be put forth for the folks who have appeared to be overlooked in what we have seen thus far.
• 12:47
  Right. And we hear those, you know, those same things when the budget framework, as they're calling it, came out.
• 12:54
  The people that are in the group that would just get the 3 percent, they never quite understand why it is that, you know,
• 13:01
  the group of just correctional officers are getting the larger pay increases.
• 13:06
  And that's something, I mean, we've chipped away at that for a long time as scenic, working on a step pay plan for everybody.
• 13:14
  And, you know, after the unfortunate, tragic murders at Bertie and Pasquotank, that got some things moving.
• 13:21
  And it's a shame that it took that to get some things moving.
• 13:24
  But here we sit, like you just said, with incredible wage compression that hasn't been addressed for years.
• 13:30
  So do y'all have like specific things that you're looking at from the legislature that you can share with us as far as addressing?
• 13:38
  I wouldn't say that we're looking for specific things.
• 13:41
  We're certainly just saying, thank you so much for considering our correctional officers and our probation officers.
• 13:48
  But that's not enough. It's the beginning. Right. But it's not enough.
• 13:52
  Please keep in mind that there is going to be compression that is created by these raises.
• 13:57
  And in order for us to retain our dedicated staff, that has to be addressed.
• 14:03
  These raises will certainly help with recruitment and retention.
• 14:07
  But compression money and LMAR money will help with the retention of the folks who are already here,
• 14:13
  who have already proven that they want to work for the state and want to work for the agency.
• 14:17
  And they are just as important. That's right.
• 14:19
  And Secretary Dismukes, when she spoke to the legislature early February, maybe, I mean, she laid the case out.
• 14:25
  So, you know, there's absolutely the legislature knows that this is an issue between, you know, the department being very clear about it.
• 14:34
  And Scenic obviously is messaging that, too. So we will stay hopeful with you.
• 14:38
  Yeah, we had a board meeting this weekend and a lot of our board, our correctional staff and officers.
• 14:45
  And we we could tell the reaction is kind of subdued from the folks who aren't officers.
• 14:51
  Are you seeing that as well? I guess they're not that excited about 3 percent when their co-workers are getting 15.
• 14:57
  I don't know that we are seeing it yet because the budget hasn't actually happened.
• 15:02
  Right. As you've been saying, it's a framework. We have been saying we don't even know if this is actually going to come to pass.
• 15:08
  Right. And so I am sure that what you are hearing is what's being said.
• 15:13
  But what we are we are concentrating on the fact that thank you for seeing us. Thank you for understanding that we are in dire straits.
• 15:21
  Now, let's take this as a first step and let's move forward with what else we need for our people.
• 15:27
  Hopefully they're going to address some of that. John and I were talking earlier about the, you know, the two billion dollars increase in the revenues forecast.
• 15:34
  So that, you know, we've got money. We've got money and we can tell you where where it needs to be used.
• 15:40
  So, yeah, we'll see. We've still got some budget work to go for sure.
• 15:43
  So that salary piece, I guess that leads directly into the next topic of Craggy.
• 15:49
  You know, that's probably a direct result of the low pay and the inability to recruit the closure.
• 15:57
  I would say that the inability to recruit at Craggy has been very it's been obvious.
• 16:02
  Buncombe County is one of the more expensive places to live in North Carolina.
• 16:08
  And our starting salary at thirty eight thousand dollars thereabouts for our corrections officers there just simply cannot compete with the other industries in Buncombe County.
• 16:19
  Over a 10 year period, I believe we've got a net gain of about three officers that we've been able to hire.
• 16:27
  And because of that, it's just been extraordinarily difficult to recruit and retain the folks that we need to run that prison safely.
• 16:36
  And there are what, 250 approximately offenders?
• 16:39
  There are approximately two hundred and fifty offenders at Craggy right now.
• 16:43
  And it's it's built to hold more than that, but we couldn't hold more because we can't staff it.
• 16:48
  Exactly. I mean, that's throughout the system.
• 16:51
  Correct.
• 16:52
  Throughout the prison system, we're seeing those kind of things.
• 16:54
  Just understaffing is always been an issue, but it's even more of an issue now.
• 17:00
  And I was I was speaking with someone last week who works at Scotland.
• 17:03
  I think it was. Anyway, there was a shift that there should be 16 officers in and there were four, you know, four in the lineup.
• 17:10
  And I'm like, what do y'all do if you've got to send someone to a doctor's appointment or, you know, and two of those officers have to go with.
• 17:17
  So, yeah.
• 17:19
  So what is the plan for the employees who are currently at Craggy?
• 17:23
  The plan for the employees at Craggy is to transfer them to other facilities within the western region.
• 17:29
  Our western region has done a phenomenal job of literally taking every employee, looking at their home address, looking at their driving distance to Craggy and figuring out which of our other facilities in the area is comparable to that.
• 17:46
  Right.
• 17:47
  We are going to allow them to we're going to give them their first, second, third choice, obviously, based on those distances.
• 17:54
  And hopefully we'll be able to place people where they want to go.
• 17:58
  No one is going to be losing a job. No one is going to be losing any money. They are simply going to be transferred throughout the region.
• 18:07
  Right.
• 18:08
  If that's where they want to stay, quite frankly, we have facilities down east that also could use some help.
• 18:15
  And if we got somebody who wants to move from the mountains to the beach, they're certainly welcome to transfer there and they'd be entitled to relocation pay, according to a state policy.
• 18:24
  So they can go anywhere they want to in the state, but we are going to make sure that if they want to stay in the western region that there is a place for them to land.
• 18:33
  No one ever says, I want to move from the mountains to the Piedmont or from the beach to the Piedmont, right?
• 18:40
  It's the mountains or to the beach.
• 18:41
  Yeah, I was going to say both are great.
• 18:45
  You know, that kind of leads me to think about another thing I read about Craggy.
• 18:49
  You say that people can move to different jobs within DAC, but the county detention centers can offer way more money from what I understand, right?
• 18:59
  I mean, that is a real problem for the department that, you know, you lose people to the counties all the time, right?
• 19:05
  And it's not just at Craggy.
• 19:07
  It happens in several of the counties across the state that the sheriff's detention centers have a higher entry level wage, right?
• 19:15
  So, yes, we are competing with the sheriffs for our folks as well.
• 19:20
  And we hear a lot of frustration that, you know, you train these people up and then they go, they leave.
• 19:26
  Turnover, turnover.
• 19:29
  I have heard anecdotally, I'm not sure if this is actually the number, but the Buncombe County Jail, it starts them around between $55,000 and $60,000 a year.
• 19:38
  And we start them at $38,000.
• 19:40
  It's impossible to compete.
• 19:42
  Yeah.
• 19:43
  And I imagine that working in a prison is different than working in a jail.
• 19:46
  I'm sure that a prison is probably more dangerous.
• 19:51
  I think the sheriff would probably beg to differ.
• 19:53
  Okay.
• 19:54
  But either way, either one of those places to work certainly has the potential to be dangerous.
• 19:59
  And if you're making $60,000 in one and $38,000 in another, it's going to be hard to recruit and retain the $38,000 job.
• 20:08
  Are y'all really concerned about how many employees you may completely lose?
• 20:13
  I hope that we don't lose any.
• 20:15
  Yeah.
• 20:16
  I hope that we have put enough thought and effort into making sure that our folks have, I don't want to say a soft place to land, but a good place that they can transfer to that they will be happy and that they will be able to continue their mission with DAC and that we don't lose anybody.
• 20:36
  We hope that too.
• 20:37
  Yeah.
• 20:38
  You started the job in, I guess, last January, right?
• 20:41
  That's right.
• 20:42
  Do you feel like you're making any headway on these issues?
• 20:46
  Because these issues are chronic for the department and they've been going for a long time.
• 20:52
  I mean, I guess, what's your headspace right now?
• 20:55
  Well, I think we'd have to say yes if the legislature has proposed a 15% increase.
• 21:00
  Yeah.
• 21:01
  I don't know that we've seen anything that large in a long time.
• 21:04
  Yeah.
• 21:05
  And so I think that we've been sounding the alarm every chance we get how underpaid and overwhelmed our people are.
• 21:14
  And so to ask me, do I think we've made any headway?
• 21:17
  I'm going to say yes.
• 21:19
  It's incremental because this is not a budget yet.
• 21:22
  It's a framework.
• 21:23
  We haven't seen it and we are hopeful that it will pass with actually the compression money and all the other things that we need.
• 21:30
  Right.
• 21:31
  So, yes, I think we've made some headway because we have not stopped talking about it.
• 21:36
  And we don't intend to stop talking about it.
• 21:38
  Great.
• 21:40
  Suzanne, do you have anything else?
• 21:42
  No, I think we covered everything.
• 21:44
  Thank you so much, Ms. Hill, for joining us today.
• 21:47
  You know, obviously, when we heard the news Friday that Craggy was closing, you know, it caused a little concern.
• 21:53
  But, you know, we've had some good conversations throughout.
• 21:56
  I know that the Department Secretary Dismutes has been a strong advocate for what the department needs.
• 22:02
  You guys have got a good team over there and we appreciate working with you.
• 22:05
  Well, we appreciate the partnership and I thank you for having me on.
• 22:08
  Absolutely.
• 22:09
  Have a great afternoon.
• 22:11
  You too. Thanks.
• 22:12
  So that's our show this week.
• 22:14
  I want to thank Tamara Hill from the Department of Adult Correction for coming on and talking to us about the budget and about Craggy Correctional.
• 22:21
  I want you also to remember that the budget fight is still going on even though the raises have been announced.
• 22:26
  There's always time for action.
• 22:28
  Go to scenic.org and you can look under advocacy and you can take advantage of our tools for contacting your legislator by email and by phone.
• 22:37
  So we found that contacting legislators by phone is usually the best way because the spam filters at the legislature are pretty strong.
• 22:47
  And we noticed that a lot of emails aren't getting through these days.
• 22:50
  So give them a call if you can and let them know that you need real raises and real COLAs this budget cycle.
• 22:57
  As always, thank you for joining us and have a great week.