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Protecting Yourself from Narcissism with Taylor Williams · Let's Get Naked

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hey everyone, I'm Anne.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the Let's Get Naked podcast, where we dive deep into vulnerability.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: In this space, we'll explore what triggers us, uncover the patterns holding us back, and discover how to take charge of our own growth.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: If you're ready to dig in, be vulnerable, and face the tough stuff, then buckle up.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's time to get naked.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: Let's rip the mask off this.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Narcissistic abuse isn't a hard relationship.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's not miscommunication.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's not two people just needing to work on things.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's psychological warfare dressed up as love.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: And the most dangerous part, you don't see it coming because it doesn't start ugly.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: It starts with attention, intensity, connection that feels almost too good.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: And then slow, strategic, quiet.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: They start rewriting you.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: Narcissistic abuse is a pattern where someone protects their ego at all costs by distorting your reality until you stop trusting yourself and start relying on them.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's not always yelling, it's not always obvious.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: It shows up as you're too sensitive.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: That never happened.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: Why are you making this a big deal?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: I guess I'm just the bad guy then.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's manipulation with a smile, control without fingerprints.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: And over time, you, strong, intuitive, sharp as hell, you start second guessing your own thoughts, your own memory, your own gut.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: That's not love, that's erosion.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: Now let's go one layer deeper because this is where people get stuck.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: Narcissists aren't usually created out of thin air.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of them were raised in environments where love was conditional.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: Vulnerability was not safe.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: Worth was tied to image, control, or performance.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: So they built armor.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: They learned if I control everything, I don't get hurt.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: And now they don't relate, they manage.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: They don't love, they leverage.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: But let me be crystal clear so nobody hides behind empathy.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: Their trauma is not a permission slip to traumatize you.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't care how sad their story is.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: If you're bleeding in the relationship, something is wrong.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: And narcissistic abuse doesn't just hurt your feelings, it reprograms you.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: It makes competent people feel insecure.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: Grounded people feel unstable.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: Smart people feel like they're losing their damn mind.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: And the final mind fuck, you walk away thinking maybe it was me, maybe I overreacted, maybe I should have been better.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: You were dealing with someone who needed you confused because your clarity would have threatened their control.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: So if this is hitting a nerve right now, good.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because today we're not tiptoeing around this.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: We're calling it what it is, we're breaking it down, and we're taking your power the hell back.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get into it.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: Today I'm stripping it all off with Taylor Williams.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: Taylor is a Christian EMDR therapist who specializes in treating narcissistic abuse.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the show, Taylor.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: Hi Ann, it's great to be here.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: So it's wild to me that everything happens the way that it does because I feel like the big guy puts guests in front of me in such a timely fashion.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just excited to have this conversation with you today because I think a lot of people, including myself, don't understand the full scope of what narcissistic behavior is.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: And also kind of more reasons that led that person to be there so that you can also show them grace without letting them tromp all over your life.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you can understand and recognize that in someone else without letting them continue to cut you by putting up your own boundaries to protect yourself.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe you can tell me a little bit about why you got into what you do, and then we'll kind of get into the nuts and bolts of just narcissistic um abuse and behavior and all of the things that go into that.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think where this really started is I just have a heart for that client who's probably been telling themselves for years that, oh, I haven't really been through anything that bad.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of it was my fault.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was noticing that this client was really underserved in the trauma therapy world.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's heartbreaking to me.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: If I can tell a client who's out there or a person thinking about joining into therapy out there, anything, I would say it doesn't have to make news headlines to be trauma.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: It can be, as I heard it put one way, a thousand tiny pricks over years.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it adds up and it has a real impact on your life, and it's painful and it's valid and worth talking about.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I see that especially with narcissistic abuse.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's so subtle, they may never lay hands on you, they may never do anything that you could call the police about, but it hurts so badly.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I want the person who's gone through that to know that they deserve help too.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think what you said about people not feeling like theirs is as bad as someone else, I think a lot of people compare theirs and they think, well, I wasn't sexually abused or I wasn't, you know, physically abused, or whatever.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I will maintain that, um, as I was telling you before we started recording, my first marriage, which I now after the fact realized was very much narcissistic abuse.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I I almost would rather have the other things happen to me, which I had had in younger years, because the mind control and the reprogramming that comes from that, you feel so unshaky.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: And having to rebuild from the reprogramming and the rewriting that someone else did, um it's it's almost hard to get your head around how devastating that is to your life.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: And if you don't acknowledge it with the full weight that it deserves by trying to minimize your own trauma and say, oh, it wasn't that bad, you're not going to really, I think, throw yourself into healing that, which is really necessary in order for you to be able to repair and live a full life after the fact.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And to add to that, then what can happen is once you realize, once you finally accept that you are going through a traumatic experience or you have been through one, the help that's out there can feel really overwhelming, where it's like you've got to identify what type of narcissist this was.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Were they a narcissist?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what tactic is this?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: It gets so complicated.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the second part that got me into this work is one, I want to validate that your experience was traumatic.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then two, I want to simplify the process.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: The big secret is that you are the resource.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: People who engage in this kind of behavior to coerce others, they have such a fear of abandonment.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: You spoke to that in your intro really beautifully.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the key that you are the resource.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: They are most afraid of you abandoning them.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so if we can really just look at it through that lens, it simplifies everything, and you're gonna feel like you can get unstuck.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's wild that you say that because I look back at that first marriage for myself, and I knew some of the things that happened to him from his parents growing up, and it it has allowed me to be able to show grace to him, not to him directly, because I don't have a relationship with him anymore, but just internally for myself, because I think you're absolutely right.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: He was so afraid of that abandonment, that rejection that he had to control things.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: And in doing so, I don't think that, and maybe you can speak to this next, but I don't think that people that are narcissistic are doing that from a place of intentionally trying to hurt you.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that's the end result, but I don't think that they come out with this, you know, at least in my situation, this malice of like, oh, I'm really gonna mess you up.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um what what can you say about that?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: Do you, or what do you find about people that are narcissistic and what that looks like as far as their awareness of what it is that they're doing, the impact that they're having on other people?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it will feel so personal and contrived.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And at times it can be it, the behaviors are on a spectrum.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you can see some really subtle things, um, and then you can see things more edging towards criminal activity where you're actually in physical danger.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um it really is a spectrum, which is why I just remind my clients the consistent factor is their fear of abandonment.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: That is what is most consistent.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: They may not fully understand the scope of how they are impacting you, what they're doing.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: They may not be thinking nine steps ahead, even though it's gonna feel like they've got you boxed in for miles.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's really a fear of abandonment.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we can empathize with that.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I would never encourage a client to um really dwell on condemning that person.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't find freedom for my clients in that.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: But we can acknowledge, and then I just again want to simplify that's the consistent factor, the fear of abandonment.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, whether it's contrived or not, or how how far far reaching their plan goes, we're never gonna know.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't want you to spend more energy on that.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get the focus back on you as the person because the energy and the focus was all on them, right?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Whether they meant it or not.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: That as you say that, that just feels so incredibly powerful.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I appreciate you getting that to where it is simplified because I think um it it really just makes bells and whistles go off in my head about different people that are in my life that other people have said, like, oh, that person's narcissistic.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: And just not having all of the, you know, I'm not um I'm not an educated person in the, you know, college and psychology and all of those things, excuse me.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so being able to really have it boil down to that simplicity simplistic uh aspect of it, I do look at the people in my life as we're talking and that that I know, you know, other people have said, oh, that's they're super narcissistic and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: And really looking at that from the wounded child that that person is, um, I always am able to kind of look at the other point of view, uh, which I which I appreciate and I love, but they're just wounded, you know, they're just my first husband was just a broken man, you know, like I just don't see that.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think and when you can bring it all the way back down to just whatever the simplest thing is, I think that's huge.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, tell me about EMDR and just kind of explain that process.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm familiar with it enough to know that like my both of my daughters um have done EMDR therapy and it has made a huge difference for them.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I've never done it personally, but I know that that was, you know, that that's something that a lot of people have have really found good results with.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I find it's really helpful to people who've undergone narcissistic abuse because it really will distort your perception of reality, um, which is which is so difficult because then I find when that person is trying to explain themselves, maybe in talk therapy, um, which is the more traditional conversational style of counseling, um it's really hard for them to articulate their experience or to have additional insight with it, again, because reality is really shifted to just be oriented around that person who was so so fearful of abandonment.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um so what we're doing is instead of talk therapy where a person would be telling me to the best of their ability what they went through, um, we're gonna interrupt that process with some sort of bilateral distraction.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll have my clients follow a light on their computer.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I work virtually, um, and so their computer screen will have a light, almost looks like a ping-pong ball going left, right, left, right.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so they'll tell me a bit about their experience or the feeling they had, and then I have them follow with their eyes and pause.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: What do you notice next?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm interrupting on purpose with some sort of bilateral dual attention.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they can tap themselves.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have clients that'll wear headphones and they can hear the sound left, right, left, right in their ears.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And there's something about that that seems to sync up the two hemispheres of the brain and get people unstuck.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, whereas they have told the story a million times and they saw it from their one perspective where it was all my fault, we're interrupting that.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And they're gonna look at me afterwards and say something.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'll usually hear things like, actually, I didn't choose that.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I wasn't allowed to say no.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, actually, I thought my wants and needs didn't matter, and we're starting to rework reality in a way that if they had just kept repeating the story in a narrative fashion, they might not have gotten there.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: It feels like people that have had that really are kind of on this hamster wheel of your brain telling you all of the things from that altered reality or altered perspective.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: And what a breath of fresh air that is to be able to uh do the work to kind of repro it almost sounds like reprogramming.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry if I'm not using the right language for that.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but literally kind of reprogramming your brain to where it's supposed to be instead of allowing that terrible conditioning that has happened in whatever that relationship is.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know uh you deal with a lot of narcissistic parents, right?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: Which then, if you think about, okay, you're on average 18 years with your parents, and those really core um experiences and everything that they're they're putting into your parents, if that's coming from a narcissistic person, I can't even imagine, right?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: I had I had a fraction of that amount of time.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: I can't even imagine, you know, parents that are like that as well.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: It there's usually we can narrow it down, my clients and I, to one or two negative beliefs that they are really living from.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some common examples I hear, uh, my wants and needs don't matter.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Again, because you likely you grew up in a household that revolved around one person and keeping them happy.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then external peripheral family members, they're gonna be the ones who want to keep the peace.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be the one or two that maybe push back and question.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but again, just growing up in that environment, um, children will start to internalize something.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm unforgivable, I'm unlovable.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: We can usually peel back the layers in therapy and pin it down to one or two phrases that they truly believe about themselves.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: So then moving forward, they operate within that reality.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if you believe you're unlovable, you're gonna tolerate a romantic relationship that feels really conditional.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if I'm I'm not lovable, I'll I'll earn it.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you find yourself living again from that reality.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the the spirit of just simplifying, you don't I tell my clients, you don't have to remember every single experience.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to dissect your childhood.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just peel back what did you what do you believe about yourself?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: What would life be like if you believed your wants and needs matter?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And usually in the beginning, I'll ask them what would reality be like with the opposite, and they they can't really tell me again because of the consistency of the programming.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so then I go in and I try to fill in with EMDR therapy this new way of thinking and turn on that adaptive thinking, and reality is different for them.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a wonderful thing to see.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's challenging, it takes time, and they're gonna want to default to their old way of thinking.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but when we have those breakthrough moments, they get more and more consistent.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then again, you become a person who's in charge of your life because you believe a new reality about yourself.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's very exciting.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is the kind of stuff for me that gets me so jacked up, like just so passionate because I it's like I watch as this happens for people in whatever, because I encourage people to go on a self-exploration journey, whatever that looks like, right?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone's is different for whatever types of healing modalities or therapy or any of the kind of stuff that they dive into.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: But as you watch people have these aha moments or these realizations, it makes you want to go further because you do feel so much lighter and so much more in control, not from a standpoint of being a control freak, right?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: That you can't control life in that way, but being able to really control your own choices and your own actions, your own beliefs, and understanding that if you have these things that were programmed into you by another human being, being able to take take charge of your own mind and your own heart and your own feelings is really a powerful thing to do.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: How when you said when you said it takes time, like how do you, how long do you feel like your average client is, just so that people that, and for me, uh know what what kind of a commitment that is?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, do you range from a couple of sessions to a hundred sessions, or like what what does that look like as far as the EMDR is concerned?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I usually see clients once a week for an hour, maybe twice a week.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, with EMDR therapy, there's not really homework.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: I my clients are welcome to journal, do whatever they'd like outside of session.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's not required.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: We're doing intensive reprocessing with that left-right, left-right stimulus.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I usually see them for about an hour a week for about six to nine months.
• 17:42
  unknown: Okay.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I want it to be a means to an end because what I don't want to do is replace the person for them to where they're looking to me for advice, for suggestions, for validation.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: I want it to be so clear from the get-go that this is your work that you're doing.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm more of a guide, I'm offering a tool, but I do not want to be your lifelong coach.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I really, really focus actually on the end of therapy from the beginning and throughout.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Again, because I don't want to, that's a natural inclination.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: As you heal, you're gonna want to find somebody to replace and replace that person.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And even with the best of intentions, no one should have that kind of power over you.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: And also you said something earlier where it was like you're pointing out to people that they're the resource, right?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's really powerful.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's something that I just wanted to hammer home.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: I couldn't agree with you more.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think understanding that within your own four walls, you have everything that you need.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe the programming is messed up because of either, you know, your childhood or different things, different relationships or people that you've had in your life.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: But at the end of the day, everything that you need lives inside you, right?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: I believe that the big guy lives inside each one of us, right?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's just my own personal opinion.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think when you get quiet and you get the noise out and you start listening to your knowing and your nectar, that's where God lives.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's, you know, for me, where um where I think it's really important to tap into so that you can listen to those whispers.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: I just think there's so much muck that's gotten on top of that that you don't trust your gut and you don't trust yourself anymore, and maybe you don't even recognize yourself anymore after all of the things that have happened.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um look around and I just a lot of people are really sick, you know, and it's not I don't want to say it's not your fault, but it isn't your fault, the things that happened to you, but it is your responsibility to fix it because it's I don't want to go forward and and bleed on other people that didn't cut me.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's really important to me after my own you know self-exploration journey started to figure out my own stuff so that I can be the best version of myself for other people.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that um if you look at just the collective right now, if everyone just focused on themselves, that's it, right?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone stop yelling at one another about you being right or all of that different stuff, just focus on yourself and the healing work that you need to do.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: We would just all elevate together.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: We wouldn't even have to think about who telling somebody else that you're right or you're not right, you know?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's such a freedom and just taking responsibility.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, we can't change the past.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big part of the work I do.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, also is the sort of grieving.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how could my parent have treated me that way, or how could that that that person um have done that?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: I should have been able to trust them most, and I love them so much.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's a sort of grieving and a reckoning you have to go to, but I don't want us to dwell there.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: We can take responsibility for where we're at right now, make choices, and I also see it as deeply spiritual.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's a scientific process, a spiritual process, emotional.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: To me, it all is intersecting.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I do think God makes us unique in his image, and so um it's not about uh operating uh under the rule of someone else.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: You take responsibility and um you know work on whatever is keeping you from that intimate relationship with God and how he made you to be.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: Do you feel like you know, my question comes up if you were raised by a narcissistic parent, do you find that that makes the people, the the children of the of the narcissistic parent, do they repeat that pattern or do they come from the other side of that?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like what does that look like as that pattern rolls on?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: I know that we talked about or in your questionnaire, there was a lot about um or a statement about people pleasing.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: Is that the opposite kind of the effect of being in a relationship with somebody that is a narcissistic, or do you find that the narcissism repeats um in the in the next generation down?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Have you yeah, that's a question I myself am fascinated by, and I don't have a perfect answer, but I can say this um it can go different ways.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: So um if there was a household and it's operating around pleasing one person, usually one parent, um there are People who leave that household who do repeat the mistreatment and the abuse graphically negative.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Excuse me.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you'll you'll see people who will repeat it and they become the predator themselves.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: You'll see people who are really comfortable with enabling.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: You will also see those who push back but still somehow wondered if it was their fault.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really just drawn to the person who's most likely to seek therapy, which is the one who doesn't want to hurt others, wants the buck to stop with them and the generational cycle to stop.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: But they just have this pattern of dysfunctional relationships.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: You might accidentally hurt other people, but it's not coming from a predatory place.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's coming from a place of um you're not able to fully and completely love others if you yourself are not a whole person.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: I I uh God, this this topic is so uh it's so fascinating to me because it feels so layered.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: I love the you know the pattern there of just the pattern recognition.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: For me, I think patterns are so fascinating.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's my passion of just really understanding and the emotional intelligence that goes into and the you know having the having the wherewithal to understand that that happened to you and say that, like you said, the buck stops here.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to continue this pattern because we do have control over that and what we pass down.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: So when you realize that you maybe you were in that situation growing up, or maybe you had a a relationship, a significant relationship in your life with someone that's narcissistic, you don't want to pass that pattern down to your children or to other people that are close in your life.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so it is really important for you to seek, you know, help to be able to repair this because I don't look at that from the outside and think, oh, you're just gonna fix that by yourself.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's just my my take on that.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: Would you agree with that that you need help to kind of get that resolved in whatever way that it is?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: It isn't like, oh, I'm just not gonna do that anymore.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, no, those wounds are really deep.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: That would be um we're meant to, we're meant to exist in communion with with others, and we can look to um well, for me, I take a biblical worldview and um I I actually call my practice Trinity Mental Health, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: We're made in the image of a trying God.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're meant to be in loving communion and connection with one another and with our Maker.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so don't try to do this alone.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're not meant to really do anything alone, right?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or at least for prolonged periods of time.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I see EMDR therapy as one avenue of connecting with a professional for help.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but healing is to be done in communion with others, absolutely.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you you will default to whatever you were taught to believe about yourself.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to have people in place who are gonna reinforce a new way of thinking so that again, you just don't go back to that pattern.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think that what do you what do you see as far as the actual narcissist that's causing the trauma?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: Did those people benefit from EMDR?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: Do those people wake up and go, oh my god, I'm a narcissistic narcissistic asshole?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: Or maybe that doesn't even happen.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't, I don't know what that looks like from from their standpoint.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: What what are your thoughts on that?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh, they don't, from my understanding, and again, I I don't want to speak in I don't want to speak in extremes or or overgeneralize, but they don't typically seek therapy.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: It is possible to heal and reform and to change, and they're coming from a place of hurt.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, ultimately they'll need to address that fear of abandonment.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: However, that's done, I believe there's different ways God can heal that in someone's life.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: But if they don't address that fear, they they will repeat it.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: They're not doomed, but they do have to take accountability.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: Do you do you find that that is um a common thing?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I look at that and I don't know of people that are like, oh, yeah, that's me.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's more the people that are traumatized by the other people in life that are like, I'm not doing this, I'm not passing this down, or they realize some of the patterns that happen.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know, you know, it doesn't seem like they're real receptive to have other people on the outside point out, like, hey, maybe you want to look into this area, right?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, right?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so then it's just putting up boundaries and protecting yourself from those people and knowing that those people can be in any position in your life, right?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: Those can be the closest people at your table of life, and it's still not on you to um stay in the trenches with them.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think if if people that are in that space don't get help, then there's no to me, I don't look at that and think, oh, I'm just gonna try harder to have a relationship, right?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: If you're if your parent, one of your parents is a complete narcissist, like to me that's I I'm gonna protect myself so that I don't continue to be damaged by that relationship.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's often the most loving thing you can do.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where again I try to bring the focus back to my client because uh we can spend uh so much time going back and forth on can they change, how self-aware are they?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: My hope is they change, my hope is they know freedom from fear.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: I want that for every human, I really do.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's put the focus back on you and we can explore maybe more about the you are the resource.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: That can be really practical.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that can be uh hanging up the phone mid-conversation, which sounds so small, but that can feel horrifying.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you believe you you can't say no, if you are operating from the reality that um your time is not your own, to even just send a call to voicemail can feel really, really frightening.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, saying no without over explaining your no, those are small practical steps you can take that will, even if you're arguing with them, you're still giving of yourself as the resource.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're engaging and you are the resource pull back if they're not acting a way that's healthy.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: Let's be real.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: Life doesn't come with a manual, but it does come with chaos.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: I wrote this book because I got tired of drowning and everyone else's noise and needed a way to fix my own shit.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't some sugar-coated self-help nonsense.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's true, it's honest, and it's packed with tools that actually work in the middle of real life.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: If you're ready to stop playing small, take back your energy, and get unapologetically you again, this book is your playbook.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: You can pick up your copy of the Life Hack Playbook on Amazon or on our podcast website, let's get nakedpodcast.com.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: I love that so much.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: You're the resource because it's, you know, when you do make those investments in yourself, whether that's hanging up or letting a phone, you know, call go to voicemail or whatever that looks like, those are little investments in yourself that that I've I would say kind of tune you back in with your gut a little bit because your body knows we just have so much gunk on top and so much noise.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: Your body knows what it needs to do.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so when you honor that, it's just like a little deposit that goes, okay, that felt really good.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: And was it scary?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you know that that's what needs to happen to be able to protect yourself.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: And we're all meant to just take care of ourselves in this life.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that doesn't mean you're not supposed to be generous and kind and help your neighbor and all of the things, but you have to put your mask on first because without that, you're not good to anybody else, anyways.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so being able to do that's really important.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And with each of those little moves where you're you're um admitting and admitting you're the resource and operating as such, you are turning off the the trauma response.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I love that you use the the term gut and and in the body, it is very physical.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Many of my clients are struggling with autoimmune issues, chronic stomach upset, um chronic headaches.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like your body is crying out for help.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if your voice isn't gonna speak up, your body will.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so the more we can have you say no without over-explaining, have you get through a conversation without saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, um, comes up a lot because you are taught to assume responsibility.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you can go through the end of the day and lay in bed and not be playing out every social interaction and overthinking how you might have done something wrong, those small moments are turning off the trauma response, and your body is coming out of that fight or flight mode, and rest and digestion's coming back online.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's a very physical part to this.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're not operating as your as a whole person, your body's very aware that it can't hide, it's not safe, it's not secure, rest is going to be really hard.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sleeping deeply, um, calming down without the help of a substance can be really hard because your body is very aware that you're exposed.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is, and it's screaming at you.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I think when I hear, you know, when you talk about autoimmune or stuff with your gut or whatever.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I've I've found that in my own um journey as well, where I I found myself just not well health-wise.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: And looking back, it was okay, where was I not speaking my truth?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: Where was I not um honoring my body?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: Because it keeps score and it will always collect.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's the big, you know, takeaway, I think, from just understanding how important this work is, because so many people I think shy away from it because it is work and it is uh, you know, it does take effort and it does take prioritizing yourself, right?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: So when you say, Oh, I don't have you know the money or I don't have the this or I don't have that, I totally get it.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: But look at where else you could potentially reprioritize things in your life because um you are worth doing that.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: And when you talk about, okay, six to nine months varies obviously depending on patient.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: But then on the other side of that, you're so much better, right?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: I look at all of this work that I've done on myself and I think I can't imagine not doing that.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: And was it hard?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: Was it harder than what people are doing right now?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: No, just a different hard, right?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: You're just putting your energy into something other than whatever it was that you had been doing before.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because laying awake and uh in bed and rethinking, like when you talk about replaying and rethinking and re-all of those things, I do exactly zero of that anymore because it's I've done the work.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: I've I've done, and it doesn't mean I'm done, right?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's a lifelong thing, but I've done the work to get to where I don't do that to myself anymore because that's also hard.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: And your body is keeping score.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I don't want to be in this this person whose body is literally falling down around me because I haven't honored it, you know.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think the your body, mind, spirit are also a trilogy of just who what you need to take care of.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're not taking care of your body, yes, sure, you can do it physically and put food, you know, good food in there or whatever.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're not honoring your body by saying no is a complete sentence, not over-explaining, um, not apologizing when it's not necessary.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: I even look at people who um maybe when they're, you know, say you're at a baseball game as an example and somebody gets up and they walk through and they're apologizing.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Don't apologize, say excuse me, right?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: Verbiage matters, like words really matter, and we have gotten to this place where everyone is so quick to apologize and come from this like almost meek place.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you don't have to do that.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to do this nice good girl crap that, you know, we were conditioned with.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't mean you're not a kind person.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: You can be a kind person and speak your truth and be good to other people.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: But that whole like nice stuff that I specifically was conditioned to, and I know a lot of the people at my table of life also were conditioned with, that's not healthy.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's putting somebody else's comfort above your own.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: And that's to me where I think the body gets real snarky about like, you didn't speak up for me, you didn't honor me, you didn't take care of me, and it will it will keep score and come back at you.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what can you say about religious abuse?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know that that's something that you had in your questionnaire as well, and something that I'm completely fascinated with as well.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was I was raised in Catholicism, I was very, very much um indoctrinated, is how I will say it.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think that uh there is religious abuse twisted up in all of that, and so I'm not a fan of organized religion in any fashion because I just think it's uh it's devastating to a lot of people.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's a lot of people that take power in that, right?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: That the I don't think any one person should have that much power over anyone, and I think it gets abused.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what can you say about that and how that presents and and what EMDR helps with that?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: I I see that oftentimes as a tactic to coerce and control um people with narcissistic traits will use religion.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I personally see religion as as different than a personal relationship with Jesus.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I'm also very honest with my clients from the get-go that I myself believe it's all about Jesus.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm not here to put that on my client in a way because that's not how how Jesus operated.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: He was person-to-person, relationship, um, focus.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then theology can come and you can learn more, yes.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: But it starts with just treating that person like they mattered.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so that was an an interesting thing because I was finding that as I do this work with clients, so often they were wounded by people claiming Christ, but acting the opposite.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really hard to especially believe in a good father if perhaps you were raised in a home that revolved around a parent who didn't focus on your best interest.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it was this really delicate line that I realized I how am I gonna walk this?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's coming up so often, and then the first thing clients would ask me, well, well, what do you believe?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: What's your faith?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: What if it's your religion?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I still there's no perfect way because I'm not a perfect person.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um so there's no perfect way to walk this line, but I believe God is good.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: I believe Jesus wants each and every one of us to be in in close relationship with him.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um what I don't want is that wielded as a power strategy.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then it causes hurt that keeps people from ever, ever experiencing that loving relationship.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think I think one of the good things about church and and religion is definitely the commute like the community component of that, because I agree with you 1000% that we're meant to be in connection, we're meant to be in community with one another.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think for whatever reason, uh, it's lost its way.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's lost its way where people that are the heads of churches have taken advantage of things in a way that uh for me is irreparable.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I look at that and I think I just look at all of the hurt that comes into that.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: But I also don't think that any one person is supposed to be above anyone else, you know.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: So when you say like you're a you're a a tool, right?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: People shouldn't put all their stock in you and say, I'm gonna come be your, you know, money, be your be your patient for the rest of my life.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to be their savior.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not bottom down.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's like we're we're all just meant to be um signs along the trail for one another, right?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes someone is your sign, sometimes sometimes you're theirs.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we're meant to guide one another like that.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I think uh in a lot of different factions of factors in life, uh organized religion being one of them, there's a person that's put on a pedestal that is not God, that is not Jesus, that is not your higher power, and then that abuse uh, you know, happens because that power gets wielded against other people.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: And to me, that is the most the most disgusting use of power I can even imagine, you know, is putting people in this place of really relying on you and then taking advantage of that.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: So to me, I look around at organized religion and I'm just shocked that it's still a thing, to be to be honest.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, how can that even still be a thing?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um let's have community centers instead, and and support groups and things that we can read the Bible together instead of it being one person that's in charge, because it just doesn't feel like that's the right move.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: Again, that's just my eight-year-old brain working saying, hey, maybe that's not the right the right move.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's tough because often what I would hear too is um a misunderstanding of the Christian ethic that really would encourage a person to overly give of themselves in a way that isn't God's plan for them.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: We can look in scripture and see lovingly Jesus would would turn and and walk away if somebody was not going to receive what he was saying.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so this I would hear a lot of things from my clients and and just see it in church culture of well, forgive and forget.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not actually biblical.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, forgive, let go of the idea that they're gonna say sorry or make it up to you.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Forgiveness is for us.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the forgetting and just letting yourself be re-victimized and walked on again and again and again, or to overly give of your time, um, perhaps with volunteering in a way where you don't have rest time.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you don't have downtime because it's just this ethic of I have to give and give and be this suffering servant.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I would often see narcissistic abuse.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's a misuse of scripture and religion, it's also enforcing of an ethic that God didn't give us.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you're just again draining yourself until your body cries out that it needs rest.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the biggest component of that is just really being in tune with yourself and figuring out what that looks like because then you're able to kind of navigate uh when people are trying to come from a place of power, right?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that's a big piece of it.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: Talk to me a little bit about uh just to our young women who maybe don't know what to look at.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: I look at nieces, daughters in relationships with other people, and I think a lot of times they don't even realize the narcissistic component for that.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what are some of the signs maybe of things to look out for or things that they should be aware of if there's certain behaviors that are happening?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: Just that they should that should make hairs on the back of your neck kind of stand up a little bit.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: Are there a few things that you can mention just that get people curious about maybe this isn't, maybe he's not the savior that I think that he is, you know, because I think everyone is looking for something.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so you have these young girls who, you know, have somebody that comes and makes them feel so special, and they don't even realize that they're being controlled or kind of cold out of the herd a little bit, you know.
• 41:08
  unknown: Yeah.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I try to simplify here as well.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um I want the focus back on how how is this really making you feel?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not I don't want people overly relying on feelings.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Feelings are are real but can be unreliable.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: But don't be ignoring that that gut instinct.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: It starts with that habitual ignoring.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you'll have something where perhaps they're sending rapid-fire text messages at three in the morning and they're all really nice things, but but you're feeling that sort of um, you're feeling butterflies, but in kind of a not peaceful way.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um don't be ignoring that.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you're having those moments where you're you're feeling like, wow, I really wish I could.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta talk with my best friend about that.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: You'll you'll have that moment where you want to consult with somebody trusted who you love.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's making you feel uneasy.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Don't ignore that.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't have to necessarily break down their the person's behavior.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: I want you checking in with how it really is making you feel at your core to interact with them.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: You'll find you're not filled up and and refreshed after the conversation ends.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's this sort of urgency to get to the next interaction, a restlessness.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna feel fully loved and fully known and fully at peace.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Don't ignore that because as you ignore it in the beginning, it gets easier to ignore the bigger and bigger moments of uneasiness.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where you find yourself in a situation that's can be really heartbreaking.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and to then at that point not even realize how you got there because of the fact that you ignored those things at the beginning.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like that, when you say those words, that really resonates as far as just at the beginning, your body is telling you like that's not right, whatever it is, and you just kind of push it down, ignore, ignore, ignore until you find yourself in a place where how did this happen?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: And it is because you didn't listen to your body, you know.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I also wanted to say when you're talking about talking to somebody that's trusted, a friend, or or whatever that looks like for you, don't be embarrassed about it.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think a lot of people be are embarrassed because they think, how could I have let this happen to me, or they wouldn't understand, or whatever that looks like.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: We're meant to be in community, we're meant to be in connection, we're meant to have somebody go, that doesn't feel right.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe they don't have the right advice or they don't know, but they could be a support to you to kind of help get you in with somebody that is just whoever else it is, right?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: Or encourage you to talk with a parent or just somebody else about what's going on so that you don't just continue to you know make yourself uncomfortable to keep someone else comfortable.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I could be isolated, seek wise counsel.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: So be consulting with people you know truly love you unconditionally.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, because then you don't get to this, you know, I have all of these friends that are 40 years old and and have just spent a whole lifetime not honoring their body, staying quiet to keep other people comfortable, not saying no.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um just just all of these like very people-pleasing type situations to the point where they are so far disconnected from who they are as a as a person that fighting back to get to that is a lot of work.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so for me, I'm at this place where I'm really drawn to my daughters, my nieces, um, and and boys too.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, my heart is is girls just because I'm a girl.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, but uh but but getting to the point where they can recognize that before it gets to where you've been 40 times around the sun and go, I don't even know who I am.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: Because I work with women all the time who who say that.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what do you want?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: What does that feel like?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, you know, and and I know what I know exactly what they're dealing with because I remember going through the exact same thing when I started pulling that random yarn that's hanging off the sweater.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of to me what the self-exploration uh journey feels like, is like I just want people to get curious about that string that's hanging there because there's so much more to who you are, and you can be so healthy and so energetic and so all of these things, instead of just going through this life on this hamster wheel of numbing out because you don't know what to do and you feel helpless and you don't feel like you have a voice and you don't feel like your body is, you know, is doing you any favors.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you didn't do it any favors for a really long time.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: It takes work to really be able to start unraveling that.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: But for our young girls, I want to be able to catch that earlier to be able to say and and talk about the whole things.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the reason I do this podcast is for them.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: This is my love letter to my nieces, to my daughters, to to people in my life where it's like, um, we're just not meant to live like that.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's it's a completely different, it's a completely different animal when you get healthy and you're on your healing journey.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I I don't know how to help other people realize that there's not this, there shouldn't be this stigma to that.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, wouldn't you want to be the best version of yourself that you could?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: How you want that for other people, like you want that for your kids, but if they don't see you modeling that behavior, they don't know.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so I just I want people to be curious about things.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: And if it doesn't feel right to them, speak up, say something, you know, figure out what it is.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have that person in your life that you feel you can consult with, find it professionally, yes, find it spiritually.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: I it we're just not supposed to sit alone and make decisions completely, completely alone.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what can happen where um you're going through a new relationship and there's there's there's big highs, but there's big lows, and it's just you and that other person, and you're not uh seeking counsel with an outside perspective that can be trusted and it can just end up but it's never too late.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's never too late.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's never too late, and it it is avoidable, but also no shame if you got there.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed, agreed.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: No shame if you got there.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's I love that you said that because I do I think there's so much shame that just came from whatever conditioning or programming that you grew up with.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um lots of shame.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_03: But there is no shame in getting to that place.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: Just put out a put out a signal, send up a flare that, you know, that you might be in a situation where you feel like that could be if anything that you're listening to, you know, to the listener is is landing for you where you feel like, hmm, you know, send up a flare.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: Somebody, somebody will will be able to talk you through that, help you point you in the right direction.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because that is, you know, I look at that, that is a narcissist person's um tactic is literally to control you and to kind of isolate you in a way where you don't feel like you could speak up, you feel like you're crazy, you feel like somebody else wouldn't understand you.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I look around and there are so many narcissists out there.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's just it's it's actually wild to even get your head around.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: What is the youngest client that you've ever worked with?
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: Or do you have like a whole age range of people that come to you?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um right now I work with age 18 and up, so adults only.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's um yeah, it's absolutely wild.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's absolutely wild.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, let's see, let's talk about the most common lie victims tell themselves.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: Let me think a moment, because we've I mentioned a few of common negative beliefs in EMDR we call them negative cognitions, and it's the my wants and needs don't matter.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm the common denominator.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: I hear that one a lot.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: So after a series of relationships that aren't working out, the person's thinking it really is all their fault.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the problem.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's the one I'm really interested in looking at because there's so much to that, because I want you to take accountability.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, there's things that you could have done better, you could have said no to, you could have made different choices.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, I I want to be honest and encourage my clients to take accountability, but but there's also a lot that wasn't your fault.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're making choices from a reality you were taught to believe through programming, um is it was it really your choice?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Did you really want that, even though it felt like you wanted that, or is that coming from an external source?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the big one is it's it's all my fault, I'm the problem.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's really easy to go in and say, no, no, you're not the problem, you're fine, you're fine, but I'm not encouraging accountability either.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it's another line that has to be walked very delicately.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_03: Do you feel like in that in that space where someone says I'm the common denominator, do you feel like when somebody fills that role that they're actually, and I I'm gonna stumble on the words here, but um comfortable with that pattern, calling that pattern back in?
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I notice in life the patterns are just wild, but until you fix something, you're going to keep doing that.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_03: Familiar can feel good, yes, even if it's not.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like for for women that are in relationships with narcissistic partners, or men, I mean, obviously, I I I hate to always go on the woman's side because it happens on all sides.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: But for people that are in, you know, with narcissistic partners, and then they get out of that relationship and then they call the next one in.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a it's just a pattern, and it will continue to recur your entire life until you say enough is enough, which I think is why the work that you do is so incredibly important, because then people can come see you.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: Fix I use that word loosely because it's again, it's a journey, but we can disrupt.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_03: Disrupt exactly, right?
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like you know, that's the that's the good news, bad news about having your own show and not having a degree and whatever it is you're talking about, because it's like these words that just come out are not always the the right ones, but yes, disrupt the pattern so that that's not the not what you you know think that you deserve or is familiar because just because it's familiar doesn't make it right.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like I think we're not meant to live in our comfort zones, you know.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: So if that is what's comfortable and you're not happy with whatever that looks like, doing something different is a big deal.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, one thing that instantly shifts power back to the victim.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: Did we already cover that as well?
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that that breakthrough I want every client to have.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're the resource.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're the resource.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can physically give your attention or you can withhold it.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not trying to teach a client to manipulate another person.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what we're doing here, but it's just admitting you're the resource, and then that's how you can get really specific and practical.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if you're staying on the phone, even if you're defending your case, you're still engaging in that conversation.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Are you giving of your attention or are you not?
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I've watched someone really close to me in life work through um a really intense relationship with one of their parents that was very narcissistic, and he kept fueling the fire with his energy and and then not happy with the results.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I I try not to intervene a lot of times unless people ask me, but I had to just say, you're the problem, you're part of the problem.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_03: You continue to to fill your resources into this and feed your resources into this.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_03: Cut the fuel, the flame will stop.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's it's literally that easy.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: I realize it's in in practice, it takes more work and it's a lot to be able to come up with you know the the guts to do that.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_03: But in in it is actually that easy, the concept of just if you don't want the fire, stop fueling it.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_03: You're the one that is fueling it with your energy and your resources.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it doesn't matter what you say at the end of the day, yeah.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: You're giving attention, you're reinforcing you're a part of the pattern too.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: What are some things that as people are going through the healing with the EMDR that you've experienced that people could expect?
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I again it's not, I think people realize that that the work in healing is is messy, but like what what can people expect as far as their experience outside of just the session of what that looks like?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you're reprogramming yourself, so it's pretty, it's pretty intense outside of that.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: I I describe that as at Buck and Rider is a restaurant here, and they have that board where every so often it changes and all the letters go click, click, click, click, click, click.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like for me, I feel like that's the reprogramming part of it.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, you know, you get some new knowledge or some new understanding or a new expanded awareness or whatever that looks like.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_03: And all of those letters of everything that you thought your life was kind of go click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: And it and it just adjusts because you realize that wasn't my fault.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, things that you had been telling yourself for a long time.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: But what can you say to to patients that potentially are looking into it, what that looks like outside of your sessions?
• 54:17
  unknown: Yeah.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: You'll start to notice things that you were doing automatically.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: You'll start to notice how many times you were saying I'm sorry, how many times you were a big one I see is um not setting boundaries around your time.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it can be really small.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: It can be the person in the supermarket line who's talking to you, and you just want to check out your groceries, but they keep talking and and you can't find it in yourself to say, I am in the middle of something right now.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to bag my groceries.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you'll start to notice these things that you were doing on autopilot.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's this moment of frustration, why am I doing that?
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I'm with my clients reassuring that the first part of change is noticing what you were doing automatically.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then once you notice, you you get to interrupt, and you can have that that those little breakthrough moments you mentioned that are gonna feel a lot more emotional than you expect them to.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: To just say no and end the sentence.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's one I still personally struggle with.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: I want to explain why you why you shouldn't be offended that I said no.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: I have to check in with myself and remember no is a complete sentence.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you'll notice and then you'll have breakthrough moments, and then they'll become more consistent.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's never this moment where you're just this perfectly idealized version of yourself.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: We wouldn't need God if that was a reality we could attain.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's not that's not it.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: So then I do a lot of reminding that we're not striving for perfection, we're striving for healthy and whole, and then checking in on any misguided belief that you're being selfish because you'll feel these alarm bells kick in as you make healthy changes of that, oh, you're being selfish.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're making it all about you, and so that negative belief we started with will evolve into something kind of sneaky.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you might no longer believe that you're unlovable, but am I really worth setting this boundary or whatnot?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're on the lookout for how that might have evolved into something more subtle.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the healing process can continue beyond that, and then it really is just a lifestyle choice you've got to make because we can choose to go back to old ways at any time, and we might make that choice, and that's okay.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then we can choose to to be whole and remember how that allows us to love other people better when we're when we're whole.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the the the healed or whole perspective, I think, is so powerful because I think it's so impactful to other people that see you that you have an influence on.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it it makes me think when you are speaking about speaking our truth in ways that are so simple.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: When you talk about the grocery store and you don't have time to talk, but you don't want to be rude, and I'm gonna explain to you why you shouldn't be offended and all of the things, it's like stop that.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: You are wasting so much energy on that.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I wouldn't want that.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: If I was talking to somebody in the grocery store and they were busier, I didn't have the capacity or the bandwidth or whatever, I would want someone to say, you know what, I just don't have this in me today, you know, which is you got it, right?
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: No problems.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_03: Or where I was talking with um a gal that is close to me in life, and and we were talking about when you go get a massage or some sort of service and not speak your truth about like, hey, could you not do that?
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_03: Or if a masseuse is talking when you're and all you want is them to be quiet.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_03: You can say that.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and also when you do that, your body will thank you.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: Those are little like micro deposits, I think, in your body when you set up those little boundaries of saying in the grocery store line that you don't have time or bandwidth, or or here's what I need out of a service, instead of just keeping quiet so someone else is comfortable.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: And the way that I combat that is, you know, have that conversation from a logistical perspective.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: Turn the put the shoe on the other foot.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_03: If I was giving you a service and you were sitting there uncomfortable, I would be mortified that you didn't speak up and say, hey, could you turn the temperature down because I'm freezing my ass off in this room or whatever that thing is, right?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever that thing is, to use your voice and say your truth.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's like when you see it from that other perspective, it should make you want to speak up, right?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: Because your body wants you to do that.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_03: It wants you to put up those things that it protects you from um physical, you know, verbal, whatever it is, it doesn't matter.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_03: Make those micro uh investments into your own body.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's so wildly important.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and to that I would add be patient with yourself in the process.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's also a spectrum of responses where if just saying no and then being silent, if that's level 10, right?
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe there's a five out of 10 we can have where you're saying, um, no, I I have an appointment, I have to go.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you're still providing a slight explanation, but you're still saying no.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_03: I I really like that.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: I really like that we're ending on that because that's that's perfect.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: If you can't do a 10, right, do something.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like just take a baby step and then give yourself grace and acknowledge the win of I didn't just say yes and like try to cater to somebody else entirely.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I it was still a win, maybe I stuttered, maybe my voice shook, you know, when I said it, whatever that looks like, it is still a win.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then you get to where you are a 10, because for me, I very easily now, after all of the work that I've done, say, nope, not doing that.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I look at things like that boundaries as like if somebody pushed a plate of food in front of you that you didn't want to eat, you'd say no, thank you, and you'd push it back.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to explain that you don't like carrots and fucking peas and all of the things.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_03: God, I almost made it through without using the F word.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_03: It was close, it was close.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_03: All right, please, Taylor, tell us where we can find uh more information about your if there are people in the valley or otherwise, since you do virtual that want to connect with you.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_03: The best way to reach me is through my website, Trinity Traumatherapy.com.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_03: Excellent.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're uh interested in EMDR, please reach out.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, figure out how to get the help that you need wherever you are.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and and don't don't get cornered into not talking with people in your community or in your um in your life that are there to help you.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's really, really important to do that.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_03: So um, that's our time for today.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_03: If something hit, stirred, or lit a fire under you and you've got thoughts, questions, or a story you're ready to share, slide into our DMs or email us at ladies at let's get naked podcast.com.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_03: If you believe in these conversations, help us keep them rolling.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_03: Follow, share, rate, review, do all the things.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_03: We will catch you next time.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's a wrap.