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Russian drone taunting and attacking Ukrainian civilian · THE DAILY BRIEF

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The sequence of video that you're about to see is disturbing,
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  Speaker 1: but the man that you will see being attacked he survived.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Ukrainian Foreign Minister Andrea sebihaihas has accused Russia of committing
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  Speaker 1: a war crime after a video was released showing a
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  Speaker 1: drone chasing down and wounding a street vendor in the
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  Speaker 1: southern Ukrainian city of Hassan. A footage released by Ukrainian
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  Speaker 1: police shows the drone pursuing an unidentified man around a
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  Speaker 1: van that's being used as a street stand. It explodes
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  Speaker 1: to see there after he dives behind the vehicle for cover.
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  Speaker 1: Police said the vendor, who was amand in his fifties,
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  Speaker 1: survived but suffered shock in shrapnel injuries. Ukrainian police said
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  Speaker 1: the incident occurred on Tuesday. We're joining us now is
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  Speaker 1: Katarina Bussal. She's head of the Ukraine program at the
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  Speaker 1: International Center for Transitional Justice and a socio profe of
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  Speaker 1: law at the Kiev or Heala Academy. It's good to
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  Speaker 1: have you with us. Let me just ask you, you
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  Speaker 1: saw the video as well? What did we just witness there?
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  Speaker 2: In legal terms, well, we witness a good afternoon. We
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  Speaker 2: witness an apparent attack on a civilian. The video does
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  Speaker 2: not show any military sites. We could see a mini
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  Speaker 2: bars around, we could see a multi regular, multi storied building.
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  Speaker 2: But building upon the well documented practices of rushav target
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  Speaker 2: in civilians, especially on the right bank of Herson, we
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  Speaker 2: can also say that this is not an isolated incident
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  Speaker 2: and not an isolated war crime of a target and
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  Speaker 2: a civilian, but a part of a widespread and systematic
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  Speaker 2: policy which allows us to speak about a crime against
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  Speaker 2: humanity in legal term.
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  Speaker 3: And the UN.
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  Speaker 2: Commission of the Inquiry on Ukraine designated a specific study
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  Speaker 2: to Russia's weaponization of drones in her Son and they
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  Speaker 2: said that the policy, the widespread use of the drones
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  Speaker 2: amounts now to crimes against humanity of murder of targeted civilians.
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  Speaker 1: Be there's a lot to unpack there with what you've said.
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  Speaker 1: What evidence would investigators need though to prove that this
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  Speaker 1: was a war crime? I mean, based on what we
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  Speaker 1: have seen.
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  Speaker 2: In that video, the investigators would look at a number
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  Speaker 2: of issues. First, they will assess the status of a
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  Speaker 2: person targeted, whether it was really a civilian person, whether
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  Speaker 2: he or she was engaged with, for instance, carrying certain
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  Speaker 2: weapons or being on a military vehicle, which again in
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  Speaker 2: the case of that particular video, did not seem to be.
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  Speaker 2: So they would also assess whether any critical military objectives
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  Speaker 2: were around the area, which would could justify target in
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  Speaker 2: the area. But what we do see in the video
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  Speaker 2: that it was not the area which was targeted, but
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  Speaker 2: it was a specific civilian.
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  Speaker 3: And again I would like us to return to.
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  Speaker 2: The findings of the Young Commission of Inquiry, which also
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  Speaker 2: expanded the analysis of such drone attacks, and they said
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  Speaker 2: that they pursue a wider objective of a inflicting terror
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  Speaker 2: on civilians in the area and b causing the forcible
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  Speaker 2: transfer of the population because people are so afraid of
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  Speaker 2: this constant chasing by the drones that inevitably they move
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  Speaker 2: out of those areas, even if those areas are not
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  Speaker 2: controlled by Russia.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, you bring up a very good point there,
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  Speaker 1: and for our viewers, you know, there are many people
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  Speaker 1: who have actually never seen a drone, and I'm just wondering,
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  Speaker 1: does the way that this drone, the way it follows
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  Speaker 1: this man, does that make the operator of the drone
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  Speaker 1: the intense unusually clear.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, the operators do have the live strength video from
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  Speaker 2: the drone so they actually see whom they're targeting first
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  Speaker 2: and a second, again referring to the well established evidence
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  Speaker 2: from various human rights groups, Ukraine's prosecution.
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  Speaker 3: And the UN Commission of Inquiry.
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  Speaker 2: Russians then also post the videos for the footage both
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  Speaker 2: from the drones but also the footage of the devastation
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  Speaker 2: which they caused to civilians on various social media channels,
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  Speaker 2: including telegram channels, and they accompany those posts by further
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  Speaker 2: threats and the YOUNG Commission of Inquiry or Ukraine has
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  Speaker 2: specifically labeled that this posting of our harms inflicted on
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  Speaker 2: civilians amounts to a separate war crime or in and
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  Speaker 2: of itself for war crime of outrages upon personal dignity.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we know that people in Hairshon describe this
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  Speaker 1: attack as I'm according here as a human safari. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: people are obviously terrified. And that is the point of
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  Speaker 1: using drones, right, It's not necessarily to kill someone, it's
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  Speaker 1: just to terrify the public.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And drones target not only individuals, they also target
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  Speaker 2: ambulances which arrive to support the civilians who were targeted.
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  Speaker 3: Naturally.
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  Speaker 2: Also, so many hospitals are being targeted by drones and missiles.
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  Speaker 2: So the civilians in those areas understand that in a
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  Speaker 2: case of the attack, the availability of effective and quick
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  Speaker 2: ambulance and wider help is actually very limited, and as
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  Speaker 2: you rightly say, that really impacts the decision making of civilians,
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  Speaker 2: especially parents and younger Ukrainians, to move from those areas.
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  Speaker 2: That of course leaves many poorer civilians, or elderly civilians
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  Speaker 2: or civilians with disabilities in front of an unimaginable choice
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  Speaker 2: if they cannot fund the relocation or if it's too
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  Speaker 2: complicated for them logistically, which again further exposes them to
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  Speaker 2: further violence by the means of the drones.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, drones are supposed to make warfare more precise and
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  Speaker 1: reduce civilian casualties. Has this war Russia's invasion of Ukraine?
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  Speaker 1: Is it shown that precision can also make deliberate killing easier?
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: The drone operators do see whom and what they're targeting,
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  Speaker 2: and they have a choice to go after a military target,
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  Speaker 2: a military object, or to get after a civilian, which.
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  Speaker 1: The Russians to And how realistic is it to identify
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  Speaker 1: the operator behind an individual drone attack.
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  Speaker 2: Well, again, the use of both satellite imagery and the
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  Speaker 2: fact that again it's a widespread of the Russians to post.
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  Speaker 3: Also, both the footage and the.
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  Speaker 2: Analysis of the attacks provides a good body of evidence
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  Speaker 2: which helps identify respectable respective units. And as I mentioned,
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  Speaker 2: it's crucial that we have moved beyond looking at individual
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  Speaker 2: attacks to seeing the actual organized policy of Russia as
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  Speaker 2: a state to weaponize the drone warfare against the civilians,
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  Speaker 2: not against the military objects.
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  Speaker 1: And then how far can responsibility extend up the chain
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  Speaker 1: of command?
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  Speaker 2: Well, the under international law, responsibility can go up to
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  Speaker 2: the top political and military leadership, because the evidence about
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  Speaker 2: this use of drones or the mass shelling of major
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  Speaker 2: Ukrainian civilian cities like Kiev or Nephro is very well documented,
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  Speaker 2: and it's not that it's the information about that is
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  Speaker 2: not available.
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  Speaker 3: Through the Russian leadership.
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  Speaker 2: And the international criminal courts specifically has issued several arrest
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  Speaker 2: warrants for the top Russian generals, saying that they weaponized
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  Speaker 2: the indiscriminate chalion of civilian and energy infrastructure to spread
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  Speaker 2: a terror amongst the civilians and to inflict immeasurable physical
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  Speaker 2: and mental harm on the wide spectrum of Again, Ukrainian civilians,
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  Speaker 2: not the military persons.
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  Speaker 1: Let me ask you before we run out of time.
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  Speaker 1: Ukraine also carries out drawn attacks, including strikes inside of Russia.
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  Speaker 1: Does Ukraine have exactly the same legal duty to investigate
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  Speaker 1: allegations against its own forces?
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, The focus is on sur virus and on the
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  Speaker 2: proper conduct of warfare, So Ukraine with every deep strike
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  Speaker 2: into Russia, Ukraine also releases a lot of substantiations saying
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  Speaker 2: how the strike was targeted specifically against a military object. Unfortunately,
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  Speaker 2: during the military operations, civilian casualties do happen, and it's
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  Speaker 2: important to ensure that this damage is not inflicted or
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  Speaker 2: it's not disproportionate compared to the military advantage sort.
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  Speaker 3: But again, Ukraine does.
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  Speaker 2: Realize that a there are rules to the combat of
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  Speaker 2: hostilities and be that it's under an active duty to
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  Speaker 2: prosecute any violations, including those allegedly perpetrated by its forces,
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  Speaker 2: which again prompts higher compliance with international humanitarian.
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  Speaker 3: Law the rules of warfare.
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  Speaker 1: Katerina Boussar, we appreciate your time and your valuable analysis,
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  Speaker 1: particularly with this video going public today. Thank you, Thank
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  Speaker 1: you very much.