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S2 Ep 5: Eruption and Adaptation · Attachment Matters Podcast

0:01
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
0:03
This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
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passionate about the
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SPEAKER_03: subject of attachment.
0:10
SPEAKER_03: This is Rose.
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SPEAKER_02: And I'm Stoic Mom.
0:13
Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
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of gender and
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SPEAKER_02: identity,
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SPEAKER_02: following very different routes to get here.
0:21
SPEAKER_02: Through this experience,
0:22
SPEAKER_02: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
0:25
SPEAKER_02: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
0:29
Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
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relationship
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SPEAKER_03: between parents and their children,
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SPEAKER_03: despite all odds.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: In this episode,
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SPEAKER_02: Rose describes the fruits of adaptation,
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which include the ability to not erupt into aggression when we
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don't get our way.
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Much of the episode is spent explaining what's happening when
0:50
our children are
0:50
SPEAKER_02: exhibiting attacking energy,
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so we can use the tool of insight to meet the needs of the
0:55
moment rather than
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SPEAKER_02: exacerbating the problem by adding more frustration.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: Ultimately,
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SPEAKER_02: the answer to aggression is more adaptation,
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SPEAKER_02: so we offer ways to support that in between incidents.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: We touch on grace again for ourselves,
1:10
SPEAKER_02: for our children,
1:11
SPEAKER_02: and for the painful and wondrous experience of being human.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: Good morning, Rose.
1:19
SPEAKER_02: Good morning.
1:22
Yes,
1:22
we were giggling because of our pre-conversation for today's
1:27
episode.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: Lots to cover.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: Probably some difficult content today too.
1:38
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:42
So let's just start off with a reminder to extend ourselves a
1:46
lot of grace.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: I love that word.
1:52
SPEAKER_03: Me too.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:54
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: Where shall we start?
1:58
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
2:00
SPEAKER_03: Well,
2:00
SPEAKER_03: last episode,
2:02
SPEAKER_03: we introduced the second side to the story of maturation,
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SPEAKER_03: number two of three,
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SPEAKER_03: which is adaptation and the adaptive process.
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SPEAKER_02: I love this topic.
2:19
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, go ahead.
2:21
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes.
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SPEAKER_03: Yes, and so we're back again to talk more about it.
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SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
2:30
SPEAKER_03: We're back again to talk more about it.
2:32
SPEAKER_03: And where we hope to get to today is aggression, exploring aggression.
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SPEAKER_03: And it's how it is connected to adaptation.
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SPEAKER_03: So just kind of adding this layer together.
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And possibly even given parents,
2:54
I think,
2:55
ways to,
2:57
helpful ways to respond.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: This can be so challenging and parents can feel really at a loss.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm very, very happy that we are tackling this.
3:11
SPEAKER_03: Me too.
3:12
SPEAKER_03: Me too.
3:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this is a big one.
3:16
SPEAKER_03: So just to give a quick summary of adaptation and the adaptive process,
3:22
SPEAKER_03: this is where Dr.
3:23
SPEAKER_03: Neufeld's construct of futility comes into play.
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So the emotional experience of feeling that we've come up
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against something that we
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SPEAKER_03: cannot change,
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SPEAKER_03: where we want to enact change,
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SPEAKER_03: but we can't.
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SPEAKER_03: And we're talking about external circumstances here.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: Right.
3:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
3:45
SPEAKER_03: Or I mean, I suppose it could be something in our own behavior, too.
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SPEAKER_03: Like if we're talking about that extension of grace.
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SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
3:54
You know,
3:54
it can also be,
3:55
I wish I had done that,
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but I can't go back and change it.
4:00
SPEAKER_02: Yes, something in the past that cannot be changed.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
4:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
4:06
SPEAKER_03: But our own limitations,
4:08
SPEAKER_03: you know,
4:09
SPEAKER_03: so yes,
4:11
SPEAKER_03: by and large,
4:12
SPEAKER_03: definitely,
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SPEAKER_03: but if we sat and talked it all out,
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SPEAKER_03: maybe we'd...
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SPEAKER_03: identify some internal limitations,
4:19
SPEAKER_03: you know,
4:20
SPEAKER_03: to a learning disability,
4:23
SPEAKER_03: a memory loss,
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SPEAKER_03: a health condition.
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SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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SPEAKER_02: I would say, I would even call those fate, to be honest.
4:33
That's how I categorize those things that truly are beyond our
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control to change.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: And then there are external circumstances that we can sometimes change.
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SPEAKER_03: Okay, sure.
4:52
So I would say both of those categories would fall into this
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experience of just
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coming up against that limit or that loss and letting the
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futility register
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SPEAKER_03: emotionally and
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SPEAKER_03: Which involves, you know, a sense of sadness, disappointment.
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SPEAKER_03: If it's a loss of a loved one, you know, grieving, grieving.
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SPEAKER_03: And essentially in that process, we are changed.
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SPEAKER_03: by going through that sadness and accepting that limit.
5:34
SPEAKER_02: Right.
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I think when a lot of people hear futility,
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it's,
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it's has such negative connotations.
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SPEAKER_02: We think futility is a bad thing.
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SPEAKER_02: Right.
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SPEAKER_02: Like a few times.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: And isn't that just so telling of how stuck our culture is.
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SPEAKER_02: There's little recognition that this is necessary for,
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SPEAKER_02: to make us adaptive beings.
6:03
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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SPEAKER_03: When we talk about neuroplasticity,
6:07
SPEAKER_03: you know,
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all of these kind of buzzwords with all the neuroscience that
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is not informed by
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SPEAKER_03: these greater contexts of theoretical models,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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like the Neufeld model gives us a meaning to put around some of
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the neuroscience.
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SPEAKER_03: But we do hear that buzzword a lot, you know, the neuroplasticity.
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SPEAKER_03: The growth mindset, you know, all of these different things.
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SPEAKER_03: And it's like, well, this is how the brain creates workarounds.
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It is through encounters with futility that we can feel that
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and have that sadness
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SPEAKER_03: and disappointment,
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SPEAKER_03: but then bounce back from it and try something different.
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SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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And that's a capacity we can't access until we have gone
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through that process,
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SPEAKER_02: that adaptive process and the emotions that you described or listed.
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Those very uncomfortable emotions and very vulnerable emotion
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of futility.
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SPEAKER_03: So we think about it for ourselves and how hard it can be.
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And in this episode,
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I really want to invite people to think about it for our
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children.
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If it's hard for us,
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it is as hard,
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if not significantly harder,
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for our children.
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SPEAKER_02: I just want to confirm, did you use the word emotion earlier?
7:49
SPEAKER_02: Around futility.
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SPEAKER_02: So futility.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
7:52
SPEAKER_02: That's a felt experience.
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SPEAKER_02: It's not just the block.
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It's actually what we feel when we hit the wall that is not
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going to move for us.
8:05
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
8:06
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
8:07
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
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SPEAKER_03: And that is a critical piece to highlight that.
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SPEAKER_03: And we're going to talk more about this as we go.
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SPEAKER_03: But for those of us,
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SPEAKER_03: whether it's our child or,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
8:19
SPEAKER_03: you and I or parents listening to this,
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SPEAKER_03: who are very intellectual,
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SPEAKER_03: very smart,
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SPEAKER_03: very gifted,
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SPEAKER_03: which often goes along with a higher sensitivity or hypersensitivity,
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SPEAKER_03: the cognitive is going to try to protect us from the vulnerable.
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SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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SPEAKER_03: We're going to try to slip our way out of it.
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SPEAKER_03: Not even consciously,
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SPEAKER_03: but just the brain is going to kick in to protect us from what can be a
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SPEAKER_03: vulnerability that's too much to bear.
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SPEAKER_03: So that's our basic definition.
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SPEAKER_03: Futility is...
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process you know the emotional experience of coming up against
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that which we cannot
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change but then being transformed by that experience okay and
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that is both a means
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SPEAKER_03: and an end when we talk about the maturation it's role in maturation and
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It is a process that we should be experiencing and going
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through throughout,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: childhood into adulthood.
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SPEAKER_03: And it is, you know, with that fruit of being an adaptive being.
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SPEAKER_03: Now let's talk about the fruits because we didn't get there last time.
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SPEAKER_03: Yes, please.
9:45
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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SPEAKER_03: So some of the fruits of adaptation would be this idea of resiliency.
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SPEAKER_03: Right.
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SPEAKER_03: So we can go through loss.
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SPEAKER_03: We can go through trauma.
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SPEAKER_03: We can hit that low that empties us out.
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SPEAKER_03: And then we can bounce back.
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SPEAKER_02: Which is what resilience means, right?
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SPEAKER_02: It is that bounce back.
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SPEAKER_02: Something's got resilience.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
10:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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We can,
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an adaptive being can learn from mistakes,
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can learn from failure.
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SPEAKER_03: So there is something that you,
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you gain or that you experience that you take from something
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and it helps inform,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: how you approach things later on.
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SPEAKER_03: Right.
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SPEAKER_03: As a result.
10:45
SPEAKER_03: Right.
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And what goes with that is this idea of being able to benefit
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from correction.
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SPEAKER_03: So a non-adaptive child or adult can be told to do something differently,
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SPEAKER_03: can be told they made a mistake,
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SPEAKER_03: can be,
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SPEAKER_03: let's say this in like a teaching or a coach,
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SPEAKER_03: and they can hear it,
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SPEAKER_03: they can sink in,
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SPEAKER_03: and then they can adapt,
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SPEAKER_03: they can change.
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SPEAKER_02: So they're open to feedback.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: Open to feedback and can implement it.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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Rather than being defended against or threatened by the
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feedback and taking it personally.
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SPEAKER_03: Just not able to even let it in.
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SPEAKER_03: Just almost like a duck.
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We talk about like just water slipping off a duck,
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you know,
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just doesn't even penetrate.
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SPEAKER_03: Benefiting from adversity.
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SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
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SPEAKER_03: And with that,
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SPEAKER_03: just recovering from loss or trauma,
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SPEAKER_03: and I know we kind of touched upon that already with resiliency,
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SPEAKER_03: but,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: I think this is directly,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: this idea of benefiting from an adverse event.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm really having to restrain myself, Rose.
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SPEAKER_02: You are in my happy place.
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SPEAKER_02: Wheelhouse.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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SPEAKER_02: And this is a lot of stoicism.
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SPEAKER_02: It's all about this.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
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SPEAKER_02: It's about our relationship to the hard things.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I just want to...
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recap or you know reflect what you're saying here is that the
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more we experience
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futility the more resilient we become the more we are able to
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benefit from
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adversity right the more we have this relationship to the hard
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things the more
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SPEAKER_02: confidence we have in ourselves to be able to handle anything yes
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SPEAKER_02: And if we are protected against futility,
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if we don't get to experience it or it doesn't land and we
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don't go through this
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SPEAKER_02: adaptive process,
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SPEAKER_02: these things don't get developed.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: Right.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
13:21
SPEAKER_02: And we become very fragile.
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SPEAKER_02: We are the opposite of resilient.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: Right.
13:28
SPEAKER_03: Right.
13:29
SPEAKER_03: Right.
13:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well said.
13:34
SPEAKER_03: Well said.
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And we can,
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you know,
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in thinking about this,
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you know,
13:40
similarly for our child,
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right?
13:43
SPEAKER_03: And,
13:44
SPEAKER_03: you know,
13:44
their encounters with futility are what are going to help grow
13:48
this capacity for
13:49
SPEAKER_03: them over time.
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SPEAKER_03: And we're going to talk a lot about that because whether it's
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SPEAKER_03: children or adults,
14:00
SPEAKER_03: we can become defended against this and become very non-adaptive,
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SPEAKER_03: like you're saying,
14:05
SPEAKER_03: become very non-adaptive.
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SPEAKER_03: And as a parent coming into this new insight, it can be very triggering.
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SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to use that word.
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SPEAKER_03: It can be very triggering if we discover that our child is not adapting,
14:23
SPEAKER_03: is not encountering, you know, futility is not landing.
14:26
SPEAKER_03: They're not having those soft tears.
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SPEAKER_03: And they might be, we might be saying, Oh gosh, they're not this fruit.
14:34
SPEAKER_03: I don't see this fruit, you know?
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Um,
14:37
and I want them to have it so badly because that's what we
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yearn for,
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for our child.
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SPEAKER_03: We yearn for them to have this capacity.
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SPEAKER_03: You know, we want them to experience these fruits and,
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And so this is where we started with the grace and we're going
14:53
to keep with grace
14:54
SPEAKER_03: that we just let this start to sink in as we talk about it.
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Know that a lot of emotion can come up around it if it's not
15:02
working in our child at this time.
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SPEAKER_03: So a couple last things before we move on from the fruits,
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SPEAKER_03: just this ability to accept limits and restrictions.
15:17
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
15:18
So a fruit of adaptation of the adaptive process is that you
15:23
can accept futility,
15:26
SPEAKER_03: that you can accept a limit,
15:28
SPEAKER_03: you can accept a restriction,
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SPEAKER_03: and you can accept not getting your way.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
15:34
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
15:37
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
15:39
SPEAKER_03: And this workaround also at the same time,
15:45
SPEAKER_03: and this is kind of,
15:46
SPEAKER_03: I remember,
15:46
I think it was in one of our last episodes or maybe around
15:50
emergence where you're
15:50
SPEAKER_03: asking,
15:50
SPEAKER_03: what if someone has a physical disability?
15:55
SPEAKER_03: So the adaptive process is what helps us transcend disabilities.
16:00
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: Another one of my favorite words, transcend.
16:03
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
16:06
So it both allows us to accept those limits but find
16:09
workarounds to adapt to them.
16:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, workaround.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: What comes to my mind is creative solutions, right?
16:18
SPEAKER_02: Like there are new possibilities.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: To me, seem like a fruit, right?
16:25
SPEAKER_02: Of adaptation, right?
16:27
We access these more creative responses that we can't access
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until we accept the
16:35
SPEAKER_02: futility and move through that experience.
16:38
SPEAKER_02: Like they're just not even there.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: We're not tapping into those.
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SPEAKER_02: They're just not showing up for us until we experience the futility.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: Because...
16:54
SPEAKER_02: We don't need them yet.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
16:56
SPEAKER_02: We're still attached to it being a certain way.
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And until we let go of that attachment,
17:03
you know,
17:03
we can't access these new possibilities.
17:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
17:08
SPEAKER_03: Does that fit?
17:10
SPEAKER_03: Oh, absolutely.
17:11
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
17:11
the visual that comes to mind or the metaphor is this idea of
17:15
winter coming before
17:16
SPEAKER_03: spring.
17:19
SPEAKER_03: So if we're in that autumnal period where we got to let go...
17:24
SPEAKER_03: We got to let go.
17:25
SPEAKER_03: We got to let those leaves fall off those branches.
17:29
SPEAKER_03: And we got to experience the barren landscape of winter.
17:33
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
17:37
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
17:37
What a delightful surprise when the blossoms of spring emerge
17:43
in ways that we
17:44
SPEAKER_03: couldn't have expected.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: And it just,
17:52
SPEAKER_02: what's coming to mind for me too is cycles and how much of our life is,
17:58
SPEAKER_02: and life in general,
18:00
SPEAKER_02: you know,
18:01
SPEAKER_02: there are cycles that must play out.
18:04
SPEAKER_02: You can't stop the cycles.
18:07
SPEAKER_02: You just can't.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: You could try.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: But if you try to stop winter from coming...
18:19
SPEAKER_02: it's going to be awfully painful when it does.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: You know,
18:23
SPEAKER_02: you can't resist,
18:24
SPEAKER_02: you can resist,
18:25
SPEAKER_02: but it's going to,
18:26
SPEAKER_02: it's just going to put you in a state of frustration,
18:30
SPEAKER_02: keep you in frustration.
18:31
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: To think this shouldn't be happening.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: Right.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: Winter shouldn't come.
18:38
SPEAKER_03: Right.
18:39
SPEAKER_03: Right.
18:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:43
SPEAKER_03: So,
18:46
the last fruit that I want to mention is kind of a transition
18:49
into talking about aggression.
18:50
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
18:51
SPEAKER_03: Aggression and adaptation and that the adaptive process,
19:00
one of the fruits of this is that it allows us to not erupt
19:05
into frustration.
19:05
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I'm sorry.
19:06
SPEAKER_03: Not erupt into aggression when frustrated.
19:10
SPEAKER_03: Now I want to immediately say,
19:13
SPEAKER_03: And we were kind of laughing about this before we got on.
19:15
SPEAKER_03: This is one of the things that made us laugh.
19:20
SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry, but I still erupt into aggression when frustrated.
19:25
SPEAKER_03: Anybody who listened to season one,
19:26
SPEAKER_03: I can't say how many times I said,
19:29
SPEAKER_03: well,
19:29
SPEAKER_03: I lost my temper again.
19:30
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
19:34
SPEAKER_03: I feel like I have more of a relationship to it.
19:36
SPEAKER_03: I'm way more aware of it.
19:39
SPEAKER_03: I can repair,
19:40
SPEAKER_03: you know,
19:41
SPEAKER_03: with my children when I,
19:42
I actually have made it into a sense of play with them at times
19:47
where I said,
19:47
SPEAKER_03: well,
19:48
SPEAKER_03: I became,
19:48
SPEAKER_03: this is my term,
19:49
SPEAKER_03: a booger eating warthog.
19:51
SPEAKER_03: You know, they're young still.
19:52
SPEAKER_03: So like this term works when they're older,
19:54
SPEAKER_03: maybe you got to be more sophisticated with what you call yourself.
19:58
SPEAKER_03: But you know,
20:02
SPEAKER_03: I know that I am going to still do this.
20:05
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
20:07
But I think,
20:08
um,
20:09
I am able to have more of a relationship with it,
20:12
more of awareness around it.
20:15
SPEAKER_03: Um,
20:16
SPEAKER_03: so anybody out there who's like,
20:18
SPEAKER_03: I can never let this happen or I won't be in an adaptive bean.
20:22
SPEAKER_03: No, no.
20:23
I'm,
20:23
I'm hopefully,
20:25
you know,
20:25
I also have my encounters with futility and,
20:29
But this is one that I know I'm going to be working with
20:33
always,
20:34
you know.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: Can I offer another, I think, potential way it can look?
20:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm not known for losing my temper.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: I have.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: And, ooh, it was scary, scary.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:56
SPEAKER_02: It takes a lot for me to blow my top.
21:02
But I would say my go-to,
21:05
like my aggression looked,
21:10
I call it porcupine energy.
21:11
SPEAKER_02: It's like I would withdraw.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: And I know what was going on for me, but the people around me didn't.
21:20
SPEAKER_02: I think they could just sense mom is unapproachable right now.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: She's not available to me.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: She's not, she's not there really.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: Right.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: Like I can see her in the kitchen doing her thing, but that's not my mom.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
21:38
SPEAKER_02: Is that, would that be considered aggression?
21:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:41
SPEAKER_03: Maybe your alter ego is the porcupine.
21:44
SPEAKER_03: Mine's the booger eating work hog.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
21:52
SPEAKER_03: For sure.
21:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:53
SPEAKER_03: It's still, it's still, it's got its own form of attack.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: Right.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: Its own form of, um, uh, oh, there's a word.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: I can't find it.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: It's almost like a punishment, right?
22:08
SPEAKER_02: It's, it's a way to hurt the other, its own form of hurtfulness.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
22:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
22:14
SPEAKER_03: Punishment I think is, um,
22:17
SPEAKER_03: That resonates with me.
22:19
SPEAKER_03: I can do that too, for sure.
22:25
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, depending on the situation, yeah.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:32
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so let's talk about aggression.
22:34
SPEAKER_03: Let's just go there.
22:37
SPEAKER_03: And as we do, I do want to say from the start, I feel like this is such a
22:48
SPEAKER_03: Helpful, concrete, dynamic.
22:56
through which we can come to really put the meat on the
23:04
theoretical language that
23:07
SPEAKER_03: you and I talk about,
23:08
SPEAKER_03: that we're taking from Dr.
23:09
Neufeld and we're trying to share it with people in a way so it
23:13
makes sense.
23:14
SPEAKER_03: When we say things like, what we see determines what we do.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
23:21
This understanding of aggression,
23:24
I think,
23:25
is just such a key way to apply that.
23:33
SPEAKER_03: And so as we talk about aggression,
23:36
SPEAKER_03: we are going to talk like in two seconds,
23:38
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to start giving examples of
23:41
of this eruption of attacking energy that are probably going to
23:45
be very real for
23:47
for listeners in their own lives and with their children and um
23:54
in those incidents
23:57
SPEAKER_03: we are desperate to know what to do yes
24:03
SPEAKER_03: And we're going to start today with the first thing that you can do,
24:11
SPEAKER_03: which is to change how you see it.
24:16
SPEAKER_03: To gain,
24:17
SPEAKER_03: maybe it won't be changed for everyone who's already familiar here,
24:19
SPEAKER_03: but to just gain that understanding,
24:22
SPEAKER_03: more understanding,
24:23
SPEAKER_03: more insight into what is underneath,
24:29
SPEAKER_03: what is the antecedent.
24:33
of that attack from your child sounds simple and we'll
24:46
hopefully we'll also get to
24:47
SPEAKER_02: some ways or some impediments to that yeah okay to that ability to see
24:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
25:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:02
So just some examples of when we use the word aggression,
25:06
what are we talking about?
25:07
SPEAKER_03: We're talking about just this eruption of attacking energy.
25:12
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
25:12
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
25:14
SPEAKER_03: If we picture a volcano, it's just like the lava shooting out.
25:19
SPEAKER_03: And it can be insults.
25:22
SPEAKER_03: It can be hitting.
25:23
SPEAKER_03: It can be kicking.
25:24
SPEAKER_03: It can be, you know, screaming.
25:28
SPEAKER_03: It can be what we would call like a tantrum.
25:33
It can be targeted at,
25:35
you know,
25:35
outward at those around us,
25:37
a sibling,
25:38
a parent.
25:42
It can also be targeted inward with things that we're turning
25:47
that attacking energy
25:49
SPEAKER_03: inward towards ourselves.
25:52
SPEAKER_03: This would be kind of like the biggest example that we self-harm.
25:57
SPEAKER_03: But anything that,
25:57
SPEAKER_03: you know,
25:58
SPEAKER_03: insults,
26:00
SPEAKER_00: just,
26:01
SPEAKER_03: you know,
26:01
SPEAKER_03: anything that has that intensity of attack,
26:06
SPEAKER_03: that is what we're talking about when we're talking about frustration.
26:10
SPEAKER_03: I do have to admit to tantrums.
26:12
SPEAKER_03: I still throw tantrums.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: That involve a lot of swearing.
26:17
SPEAKER_03: I don't feel so alone.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: It's not usually in regards to other people.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: It's usually technology.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: That brings out my attacking energy.
26:27
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
26:30
And thank you for saying that because this is what we need to
26:37
see when our child is
26:40
SPEAKER_03: erupting an attack.
26:44
SPEAKER_03: That they are frustrated.
26:48
That underneath the attack is that primal emotion of
26:53
frustration that's moving them.
26:57
SPEAKER_03: Okay?
26:58
SPEAKER_03: They are being moved by it.
27:00
SPEAKER_03: And underneath the frustration is that something is not working for them.
27:11
SPEAKER_03: Okay?
27:12
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
27:14
SPEAKER_03: So here's where we can,
27:16
SPEAKER_03: again,
27:16
SPEAKER_03: you know,
27:17
put some meat on these distinctives of the new fault approach
27:20
where we have the
27:22
SPEAKER_03: behavioral model telling us,
27:26
SPEAKER_03: you know,
27:26
SPEAKER_03: our child is a blank slate.
27:27
SPEAKER_03: And so if they're attacking us, we have to teach them not to do it.
27:31
SPEAKER_03: Okay, we need to change that behavior.
27:34
SPEAKER_03: It's bad behavior.
27:37
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
27:38
SPEAKER_03: Versus this is an inner spring.
27:40
SPEAKER_03: They are being moved by what's not working.
27:43
SPEAKER_03: They're being moved by the frustration and it is coming out as attack.
27:47
SPEAKER_03: It's coming out as aggression.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
27:52
SPEAKER_03: Different paradigms.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: And we did talk about this in season one.
27:59
SPEAKER_02: And very important to understand that
28:02
SPEAKER_02: The differences here,
28:04
SPEAKER_02: right,
28:04
in what you see because of the differences in the way that
28:08
you'll respond based on
28:09
SPEAKER_02: what you see.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
28:13
SPEAKER_03: Another one of those distinctives,
28:16
SPEAKER_03: behavioral approach versus Neufeld,
28:18
SPEAKER_03: is looking to antecedents,
28:23
SPEAKER_03: looking back.
28:24
SPEAKER_03: Okay, they're erupting.
28:26
SPEAKER_03: Let's go back.
28:27
SPEAKER_03: Let's go back and think about, realize something is not working.
28:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:32
SPEAKER_03: We might not be able to identify what that thing is in the moment.
28:35
Sometimes we may have an awareness of it and have an
28:39
understanding of the antecedent.
28:41
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we might not.
28:43
SPEAKER_03: But we can know it's somewhere back there.
28:46
SPEAKER_03: And the antecedent is in contrast to a consequence.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: And I want to just reinforce something.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: You said they are moved, right?
29:00
SPEAKER_02: There is now an energy in them that must move through.
29:06
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
29:08
And so to try to suppress that,
29:10
right,
29:10
which would be the behaviorist model.
29:13
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: Is antithetical, right?
29:16
SPEAKER_02: It is.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: But that move, I also just want to point out, it's
29:25
SPEAKER_02: It's built in.
29:27
SPEAKER_02: It's instinct.
29:29
SPEAKER_02: It's not, there's not a choice in that moment in it.
29:34
SPEAKER_03: Correct.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: They are not choosing to behave in the way that they're behaving.
29:38
They are being moved to behave in this way because this is what
29:41
the human does when
29:42
SPEAKER_02: they are in frustration.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: And experiencing, you know, this futility.
29:50
SPEAKER_02: Right.
29:51
SPEAKER_03: Coming up against, yeah, trying to enact change.
29:54
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
29:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
29:56
SPEAKER_03: So I want to say something briefly about what you just said,
30:00
and then I think we should talk about the traffic circle and
30:02
just review that as
30:03
SPEAKER_03: sort of our next step.
30:06
SPEAKER_03: But I want to talk with this because I know I'll forget to.
30:08
SPEAKER_03: I don't say it right now.
30:14
SPEAKER_03: Part of the water we swim in culturally with this behavior of,
30:19
SPEAKER_03: But not just the behavioral approach,
30:22
but also I would say like the cognitive therapy approach almost
30:27
is the thought
30:28
SPEAKER_03: precedes the emotion.
30:30
SPEAKER_02: Oh, right.
30:33
SPEAKER_03: So I did cognitive therapy with my therapist.
30:35
SPEAKER_03: She was, you know, whatever.
30:38
SPEAKER_03: It's got an acronym.
30:38
SPEAKER_03: I can't remember.
30:39
SPEAKER_03: CBT?
30:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
30:40
SPEAKER_03: Is it that?
30:42
SPEAKER_02: Is that what you mean?
30:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: Oh, like the approach was an acronym.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
30:49
SPEAKER_03: If you can change your thoughts, you're going to change your emotions.
30:55
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
30:57
Words cannot describe how much it helped me to leave that
31:01
paradigm behind and learn
31:05
SPEAKER_03: the paradigm of Neufeld of no,
31:07
SPEAKER_03: my emotion is.
31:11
SPEAKER_03: is in the driver's seat here.
31:13
SPEAKER_03: I like the, who's in charge, the rider or the elephant baby.
31:18
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
31:19
We can try to think the rider,
31:21
this rational cerebral cortex is directing the movement here.
31:30
But so I'm not finishing my thought here,
31:36
but what I'm trying to say is that,
31:40
Oftentimes when we see that eruption of anger from our child,
31:45
we,
31:46
we,
31:46
we go to anger.
31:47
SPEAKER_03: Well, they're angry.
31:48
SPEAKER_03: They're angry.
31:50
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
31:50
SPEAKER_02: Oh yes.
31:51
SPEAKER_02: We see anger and yeah.
31:53
SPEAKER_03: And then kind of what might go right after that is why,
31:58
SPEAKER_03: and we want to ask them,
31:59
SPEAKER_03: why are you angry?
32:01
SPEAKER_03: We go to the cognitive.
32:04
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
32:06
SPEAKER_03: So what I want to,
32:09
SPEAKER_03: invite people to or stress here is to consider that that is secondary.
32:17
SPEAKER_03: And that if we're asking our child,
32:19
SPEAKER_03: why,
32:19
SPEAKER_03: or even,
32:20
SPEAKER_03: you know,
32:21
SPEAKER_03: if we're asking her,
32:22
SPEAKER_03: well,
32:22
SPEAKER_03: why are you angry?
32:24
SPEAKER_03: They're going to come up with something.
32:26
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
32:28
Because the brain will make it,
32:29
we'll come up with a reason we could come up with.
32:31
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's what the brain does.
32:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Stories.
32:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
32:36
SPEAKER_02: We attach a story to the anger.
32:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:39
But it may or may not actually be the thing that's not working
32:43
underneath.
32:45
SPEAKER_03: So this is where we're coming up against another cultural dynamic.
32:54
SPEAKER_03: And that is,
32:55
SPEAKER_03: Neufeld talks about when we go into the alpha,
32:58
SPEAKER_03: when we go into this idea of emotional development,
33:02
SPEAKER_03: our emotional maturity also being a developmental process.
33:07
This was so hard for me as a parent of a young child because I
33:13
was coming into
33:14
SPEAKER_03: parenting at this era,
33:16
SPEAKER_03: which maybe our listeners can relate to,
33:20
SPEAKER_03: of don't tell your child what they feel.
33:25
SPEAKER_03: We have to ask them.
33:28
SPEAKER_03: We shouldn't impose our agendas on them.
33:30
SPEAKER_03: We should be cultivating an emotional maturity in them by like,
33:36
How do you feel about,
33:38
you know,
33:38
really getting into their feelings,
33:41
right?
33:41
SPEAKER_03: Asking them, not assuming.
33:44
SPEAKER_03: And what this demands of us is to recognize those inner springs,
33:52
SPEAKER_03: that we can read our child's behavior,
33:56
SPEAKER_03: in this case,
33:57
SPEAKER_03: aggression,
33:59
SPEAKER_03: and know,
34:01
SPEAKER_03: have the sense of confidence that
34:05
and authority that we can read that and know the emotion of
34:12
frustration is underneath it.
34:14
SPEAKER_03: So we don't need to ask them.
34:21
SPEAKER_02: And in fact, don't we kind of want to script it for them?
34:27
SPEAKER_02: Isn't that the, and maybe I'm jumping ahead.
34:31
Yeah,
34:32
yeah,
34:32
yeah,
34:33
yeah,
34:33
that's a great,
34:35
we want to help them to express it.
34:38
SPEAKER_03: And that is where you are going.
34:39
SPEAKER_03: I think that's what started my big thought loop here,
34:44
SPEAKER_03: which hopefully people were able to follow,
34:46
SPEAKER_03: but that it needs to come out.
34:50
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
34:51
SPEAKER_03: It needs to come out.
34:53
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
34:56
SPEAKER_03: And let's talk about the traffic circle.
35:00
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
35:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
35:02
SPEAKER_03: Do you want to lay that out and start kicking off?
35:07
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
35:08
SPEAKER_02: And we talked quite a bit about this also in season one.
35:11
SPEAKER_02: I imagine we can include a diagram with this episode.
35:16
SPEAKER_03: We can include that video.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: There's like a 20-minute video.
35:20
SPEAKER_02: And this is Newfield's traffic circle model of frustration.
35:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: And what we're saying here is frustration is in the body.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: And it will find a way out.
35:38
SPEAKER_02: It has to.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: Once we go into an experience of frustration,
35:43
SPEAKER_02: that frustration has to move through and come out somewhere.
35:46
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: And this model offers three possibilities for that.
35:53
SPEAKER_02: The first possibility is change.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: When we're frustrated about something,
35:57
SPEAKER_02: when something is not working for us,
35:59
SPEAKER_02: we are automatically moved to try to change it.
36:03
SPEAKER_02: That's going to be our first
36:06
SPEAKER_02: possible way out of the experience.
36:09
The first possibility for that frustration to move out of our
36:11
body is through
36:14
SPEAKER_02: accomplishing change of the thing that's not working for us.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: What will block us from exiting there is futility,
36:24
SPEAKER_02: which is what we've been talking about,
36:25
SPEAKER_02: right?
36:26
SPEAKER_02: It is that limit or that wall, that thing that you can't change and
36:32
And that will offer us then the opportunity to move through
36:36
this adaptation process
36:39
SPEAKER_02: that we described in the last episode.
36:41
But we have to be able to feel those feelings of disappointment
36:49
and surrender
36:51
SPEAKER_02: basically to the reality of what is.
36:53
SPEAKER_02: And we have to be soft enough to do that.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: What blocks us from getting out here is
37:00
SPEAKER_02: is defendedness.
37:03
SPEAKER_02: It's our defenses.
37:05
If we have not developed this adaptability in ourselves because
37:11
we've experienced
37:12
SPEAKER_02: enough futility and our hearts have remained soft,
37:16
SPEAKER_02: we will not adapt.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: We'll bypass this off-ramp and the next and final off-ramp is aggression.
37:27
SPEAKER_02: Attacking energy.
37:29
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: So these are the three ways for this frustration to leave the body.
37:35
SPEAKER_02: It has to move.
37:37
SPEAKER_02: We are compelled to move this frustration out of the body.
37:41
SPEAKER_02: These are the three ways.
37:43
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
37:47
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
37:49
SPEAKER_03: And so, you know,
37:53
SPEAKER_03: When we think about what we talked about in last episode,
37:55
SPEAKER_03: just that critical component of moving mad to sad,
37:59
SPEAKER_03: right?
37:59
If we think about frustration as the mad,
38:02
you know,
38:02
we're working to change.
38:03
SPEAKER_03: We're working to change.
38:04
SPEAKER_03: We're working to change.
38:05
We're just riled up and churning and exerting that effort at
38:11
that reaching for that outcome.
38:12
SPEAKER_03: You know,
38:14
SPEAKER_03: you know,
38:14
SPEAKER_03: we talked about what we want to shift,
38:17
SPEAKER_03: make that switch,
38:18
SPEAKER_03: you know,
38:19
SPEAKER_03: into giving up.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
38:22
SPEAKER_03: And releasing it through our tears or that inner feeling of sadness.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: This is the purpose of sadness.
38:31
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
38:32
SPEAKER_03: And I forgot to say this in last episode, so I got to say it right now.
38:39
SPEAKER_03: The Neufeld people talk about this research that's been done,
38:42
SPEAKER_03: and maybe you've heard this in some context,
38:47
SPEAKER_03: that those tears of futility,
38:49
SPEAKER_03: not the tears of upset where we're still resisting.
38:52
SPEAKER_03: We're just screaming and pushing it away.
38:55
SPEAKER_03: We're resisting.
38:55
SPEAKER_03: We're not surrendering.
38:57
SPEAKER_03: Those surrendering tears actually remove toxins from the body.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay?
39:03
SPEAKER_03: How incredible is that?
39:04
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
39:06
So that's part of why we feel a release,
39:08
a lightness,
39:10
a cleansing experience.
39:13
SPEAKER_03: It is actually physiologically in those tears.
39:16
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
39:17
SPEAKER_03: How incredible.
39:18
SPEAKER_02: Life.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: Life is amazing.
39:21
SPEAKER_02: What an amazing.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:26
SPEAKER_03: So the challenge with this is that it is so vulnerable.
39:30
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
39:32
SPEAKER_03: And putting it in the context of your child,
39:37
SPEAKER_03: and I'm going to use my older son as an example,
39:42
SPEAKER_03: he was not...
39:44
SPEAKER_03: an adaptable child.
39:46
He,
39:47
as a highly sensitive,
39:48
maybe hypersensitive child,
39:51
he had so many defenses against futility.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
39:57
SPEAKER_03: He was, he's very smart.
40:00
SPEAKER_03: So he had all those cognitive workarounds,
40:02
SPEAKER_03: but,
40:02
SPEAKER_03: but,
40:03
SPEAKER_03: but,
40:03
SPEAKER_03: but,
40:03
SPEAKER_03: but,
40:03
SPEAKER_03: but,
40:04
SPEAKER_03: but just,
40:04
SPEAKER_03: you can just see that child,
40:07
SPEAKER_03: that gifted child and,
40:08
SPEAKER_03: You know,
40:09
SPEAKER_03: that sensitive child just trying to make it work through the rational,
40:14
SPEAKER_03: through the mind.
40:16
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
40:18
SPEAKER_03: Avoiding that limit.
40:20
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
40:20
SPEAKER_03: Not wanting to really let that limit register.
40:25
SPEAKER_03: And so...
40:28
SPEAKER_03: If you're listening to this and you may have that type of a child,
40:31
SPEAKER_03: that sensitive child,
40:33
SPEAKER_03: or a child who you're not seen as having that off-ramp through tears,
40:38
SPEAKER_03: but is really stuck in that off-ramp with attack,
40:42
SPEAKER_03: with aggression,
40:45
SPEAKER_03: I just want to say this is such a challenging situation.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
40:51
um and it's not going to be fixed overnight and what happened
40:57
to me when i heard
40:59
this content originally and came to realize that my son was not
41:05
easy to tears and
41:06
almost never had them i mean almost maybe once a year okay if
41:10
we were lucky and we
41:12
we found a way in through through art and playing kind of
41:15
melancholy music and he
41:17
SPEAKER_03: would sometimes let a couple trickles out.
41:22
SPEAKER_03: But everything else was resist.
41:25
SPEAKER_03: Resist.
41:27
It can be so frustrating to come into this awareness and to
41:33
want those to help that
41:35
SPEAKER_03: adaptation,
41:37
SPEAKER_03: but we can't force it.
41:41
SPEAKER_03: And for that sensitive child or that child that's defended –
41:50
we can't go direct it's it's working with that building up that
41:58
safe relationship
41:59
coming alongside you know loosening up maybe through those ways
42:05
in through play
42:06
SPEAKER_03: over time that can help soften but depending on how how
42:15
SPEAKER_03: stuck this is or how,
42:17
SPEAKER_03: you know,
42:17
SPEAKER_03: each individual circumstance,
42:19
SPEAKER_03: you know,
42:20
SPEAKER_03: it's also in,
42:21
we have to have our own tears of futility that our ability to
42:29
change this or change
42:30
SPEAKER_03: it quickly is very limited.
42:33
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
42:33
It's not that we don't have the ability to commit to this
42:38
long-term,
42:39
you know,
42:42
SPEAKER_03: But we are not going to be able to enact that change from overnight.
42:49
SPEAKER_02: And can I – I want some clarification on you can't go direct.
42:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: And maybe – I don't remember how much we got into this last time,
42:58
SPEAKER_02: but the softening,
43:00
SPEAKER_02: those tears can only come in softness.
43:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:08
SPEAKER_02: It is the conditions that invite the tears.
43:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:12
SPEAKER_02: Is that what you mean?
43:13
SPEAKER_02: Can you say more about you can't go direct and what's meant by that?
43:17
SPEAKER_03: Well, I've got two things I could say to that.
43:22
SPEAKER_03: One is that I've mentioned aspects of my personality before,
43:27
SPEAKER_03: and this is like the genetics my son has,
43:29
SPEAKER_03: okay?
43:31
I am the kind of person who hears this information,
43:36
and I just want to go home and say,
43:38
cry.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
43:40
SPEAKER_03: You need to cry right now.
43:41
SPEAKER_03: You have to cry.
43:42
SPEAKER_03: You have to cry.
43:43
SPEAKER_03: Cry.
43:47
SPEAKER_03: That's going direct.
43:48
SPEAKER_03: Oh, well, then I... That's a really, you know... Yes.
43:51
SPEAKER_02: And I have to cop to this in my community where I do teach this.
43:58
SPEAKER_02: And that is a direct approach.
44:01
SPEAKER_02: And it's not going to invite the tears, right?
44:04
SPEAKER_02: It's more about creating the safety in the community.
44:08
SPEAKER_02: You know,
44:08
it's more about ensuring these moms feel seen and held in grace
44:14
that is going to
44:15
SPEAKER_02: invite the tears.
44:17
rather than just learning about this learning about it it's
44:21
that cognitive thing
44:22
again and it's not going to again we're talking about energies
44:27
in the body that
44:28
have to move through we try to to think our way out of this and
44:34
that's just not
44:36
SPEAKER_02: it's not going to get you there
44:39
SPEAKER_03: But it's not that you can't have that going on at the same time.
44:41
You know,
44:42
it's like not,
44:42
you know,
44:43
like you've talked to before and I relate.
44:46
SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is my whole story.
44:47
SPEAKER_03: I had to get into this Neufeld stuff at this intellectual level.
44:51
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
44:52
SPEAKER_03: Because that's me.
44:53
SPEAKER_03: That's my temp.
44:54
SPEAKER_03: Like that's...
44:55
SPEAKER_03: Who I am.
44:56
SPEAKER_02: And can create some safety.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: Sorry for interrupting.
45:00
SPEAKER_02: If you can identify where you are in the map, right?
45:05
SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh, this is normal.
45:08
SPEAKER_02: Then you can start creating those conditions for yourself even.
45:12
SPEAKER_02: It's okay.
45:13
SPEAKER_02: It's okay to release.
45:16
It's not going to...
45:20
I'm not going to get swept away in it and never find my way
45:24
out of the emotion yeah yeah yep yeah and it can also be so
45:32
i've got a few
45:37
different thoughts going on right now another way to see it is
45:41
through that um
45:43
asap's fable we talked about this in season one with the
45:45
defenses right yes
45:48
That the direct – so that's the sun and the north wind where a
45:53
man has a coat on
45:54
SPEAKER_03: and he's walking and the north wind says,
45:56
SPEAKER_03: hey,
45:57
SPEAKER_03: I bet I can get this coat off before you do.
46:00
SPEAKER_03: And the sun was like, great, let's see what happens.
46:05
So that north wind was blowing and blowing and blowing to get
46:09
the man to rip – to
46:10
SPEAKER_03: blow that coat off by – that's direct.
46:13
SPEAKER_03: Okay, that's just – I need to –
46:16
Get you to be vulnerable by pushing you direct,
46:23
you know,
46:24
versus that warmth of the sun.
46:26
You know,
46:27
the man clenched down on the coat harder and harder and harder
46:29
and harder.
46:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:31
SPEAKER_03: It was way less like, you know, he was never going to take that coat off.
46:35
SPEAKER_03: And then the sun just surrounded him with warmth.
46:39
SPEAKER_03: And he took the coat off on his own.
46:41
SPEAKER_03: On his own.
46:42
SPEAKER_03: Right.
46:43
SPEAKER_03: Because he was warm.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
46:46
SPEAKER_03: You know, so that's what you're talking about with that safety.
46:50
SPEAKER_03: And some of the indirect,
46:54
SPEAKER_03: you know,
46:55
SPEAKER_03: is,
46:56
SPEAKER_03: you know,
46:57
SPEAKER_03: if this is a younger child,
46:59
SPEAKER_03: like my son was,
47:00
SPEAKER_03: like I said,
47:01
SPEAKER_03: we went in through music and art.
47:02
SPEAKER_03: We'd bring out the watercolors.
47:04
SPEAKER_03: Play.
47:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
47:06
SPEAKER_03: we'd put on melancholy music and he would,
47:08
SPEAKER_03: the tears would trickle down out of the corners of his eye.
47:11
SPEAKER_03: And it'd usually be about his chickens or this fantasy chicken that
47:15
SPEAKER_03: he had had when he was three years old who died.
47:19
SPEAKER_03: It wasn't even about people.
47:22
SPEAKER_03: That was too vulnerable.
47:23
SPEAKER_03: It was just about depersonal even at that time.
47:29
SPEAKER_02: Well, yes.
47:30
And also what I'm hearing too,
47:32
we're not talking about a specific incident anymore.
47:35
SPEAKER_02: if I'm not mistaken here.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
47:38
And I have had this happen for myself with my daughter where I
47:44
shared some sad
47:45
SPEAKER_02: information and she ended up calling me and crying.
47:48
SPEAKER_02: And I realized it wasn't...
47:51
SPEAKER_02: Yes,
47:51
SPEAKER_02: it was sad what she heard,
47:54
SPEAKER_02: but there were tears built up that needed to come out.
47:57
SPEAKER_02: And this gave her a way to have that release.
48:02
SPEAKER_02: And that sometimes we just...
48:05
SPEAKER_02: It will build up.
48:07
SPEAKER_02: And now that you're talking about this research with the toxins,
48:09
SPEAKER_02: it makes sense that we need to find those soft tears,
48:14
SPEAKER_02: even outside of incidents,
48:16
SPEAKER_02: to help some of this stuff that will build up in us to move.
48:20
SPEAKER_03: That's exactly right.
48:24
SPEAKER_03: And that goes back to this distinctive of the Neufeld approach,
48:28
SPEAKER_03: that the treatment plan is not in the incident.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
48:34
If your child is defended against that vulnerability of being
48:41
able to feel
48:42
SPEAKER_03: futility,
48:42
SPEAKER_03: they're not adaptive yet.
48:45
SPEAKER_03: They can't get there.
48:50
SPEAKER_03: You're not going to fix it when they're exploding.
48:52
Right.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
48:57
SPEAKER_02: You're not going to get them to those soft tears most likely.
49:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's unlikely.
49:01
SPEAKER_03: But you can work it outside the incident.
49:06
SPEAKER_03: And that is where the relationship comes in.
49:09
SPEAKER_03: And so,
49:10
SPEAKER_03: you know,
49:11
I'm going to say this now because we wanted to make sure to
49:15
give you something
49:18
SPEAKER_03: concrete to walk away with.
49:21
You know,
49:22
we could,
49:23
if we only had two more hours,
49:24
we'd just keep going with this.
49:26
SPEAKER_03: But to understand that,
49:28
SPEAKER_03: that non-adaptive,
49:30
SPEAKER_03: that defense,
49:31
SPEAKER_03: if it's,
49:32
SPEAKER_03: if those,
49:34
if that isn't happening for your child and it could take time
49:38
for it to get there
49:39
SPEAKER_03: outside of these explosions,
49:41
SPEAKER_03: okay,
49:42
SPEAKER_03: outside of these explosions,
49:44
SPEAKER_03: in that moment,
49:47
SPEAKER_03: if you're trying to handle the incident that
49:51
SPEAKER_03: By telling them to calm down,
49:53
SPEAKER_03: to cut it out,
49:55
SPEAKER_03: to regulate themselves,
49:59
SPEAKER_03: you're not allowing for what needs to happen,
50:02
SPEAKER_03: which is that frustration has to come out.
50:06
And if it's not going to come out through tears,
50:08
it's going to come out through aggression.
50:10
SPEAKER_03: So, you know...
50:13
Just knowing that it's like a bowel movement,
50:17
you know,
50:17
it's got to move.
50:19
SPEAKER_03: It's got to come out of your child.
50:23
And that's going to help you instead of being on the antagonist
50:27
side of it,
50:29
SPEAKER_03: being against that you can come to their side.
50:33
SPEAKER_03: I see that you're upset.
50:36
SPEAKER_03: I see that something is not working for you.
50:38
SPEAKER_03: You did not want this to happen.
50:40
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
50:43
SPEAKER_03: And you got to get it out.
50:46
SPEAKER_03: Let me help you or I'm here for you.
50:49
SPEAKER_03: If we,
50:51
SPEAKER_03: you know,
50:51
SPEAKER_03: if our child is in that reactive explosion,
50:55
SPEAKER_03: likely is we're going to be right there reacting.
50:59
SPEAKER_03: Whoosh, you know.
51:01
So I think this,
51:02
you know,
51:03
this tool of insight,
51:05
you know,
51:05
maybe our goal is to work towards
51:08
pausing before we just dive into our own reacting being moved
51:14
in our reaction maybe
51:16
we can pause and remind ourselves what do my child is
51:20
aggressive this attack is
51:22
here okay they're frustrated okay something is not working you
51:27
know and even that
51:28
tiny shift in us could allow us to change the dynamic with how
51:35
we're responding
51:36
SPEAKER_03: okay
51:38
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I've seen this.
51:39
SPEAKER_02: I've actually accomplished this.
51:42
SPEAKER_02: I remember the first time I was able to bring that pause,
51:45
SPEAKER_02: I think that you're talking about,
51:46
SPEAKER_02: because I was reacting,
51:49
SPEAKER_02: right?
51:49
SPEAKER_02: My daughter and I were in conflict and I was being reactive.
51:55
SPEAKER_02: In fact,
51:56
SPEAKER_02: I was the one who started it,
51:58
SPEAKER_02: come to think of it,
51:59
SPEAKER_02: this particular incident that I'm thinking of.
52:04
SPEAKER_02: But I remember bringing that pause and
52:09
SPEAKER_02: and realizing my feelings were hurt, right?
52:12
Like I first had to come alongside myself and realize that my
52:19
attacking energy was
52:21
SPEAKER_02: coming from my hurt feelings so that I could soften.
52:28
SPEAKER_02: Because I think this is important too.
52:30
SPEAKER_02: Our children cannot soften unless we are soft.
52:38
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
52:39
SPEAKER_02: This is where we need to take the lead.
52:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
52:43
SPEAKER_02: Right.
52:44
We have to come to softness ourselves or this will just
52:48
continue to escalate.
52:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
52:52
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
52:54
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
52:55
SPEAKER_03: And if we,
52:56
SPEAKER_03: in that child who is defended against the futility,
53:03
SPEAKER_03: stuck in this aggression,
53:05
SPEAKER_03: okay,
53:06
SPEAKER_03: and I mean like over time,
53:08
SPEAKER_03: you know,
53:08
SPEAKER_03: kind of more systemic versus just in that moment and incidents,
53:11
SPEAKER_03: but they can,
53:12
SPEAKER_03: you know,
53:12
SPEAKER_03: they're not always in that,
53:14
SPEAKER_03: you know,
53:14
SPEAKER_03: but if we see this as kind of a pattern that is predominant,
53:20
SPEAKER_02: And one big sign of that, I'm sorry, is that they can't cry, right?
53:25
SPEAKER_02: They're not accessing their tears.
53:28
Except in screaming,
53:30
the resisting,
53:32
the tears of upset that are very defended.
53:36
And you can't see me visually,
53:38
but I keep on using my hands and I'm pushing outward.
53:41
SPEAKER_03: You can tell this energy.
53:42
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
53:44
Is it a surrender and a release or is it a resistance and a
53:47
pushing out,
53:48
pushing away?
53:49
SPEAKER_03: Sorry.
53:54
SPEAKER_03: Gosh, what did you just say?
53:55
SPEAKER_03: I lost that important.
53:57
SPEAKER_03: Remind me what you just said.
53:58
SPEAKER_03: Well, I interrupted you.
54:00
SPEAKER_03: No, it's okay.
54:02
SPEAKER_03: I liked where you went with it.
54:04
SPEAKER_02: Well, you were talking about if they are in this defended state, though.
54:08
SPEAKER_02: You know what?
54:09
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
54:09
SPEAKER_02: How do we respond?
54:11
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
54:12
SPEAKER_03: And we can tell because they aren't able to have those tears.
54:15
SPEAKER_03: We're not seeing that adaptation happen.
54:19
SPEAKER_03: We're looking for this now.
54:20
SPEAKER_03: We have this new insight.
54:21
SPEAKER_03: So now we're going to pay attention over time.
54:25
SPEAKER_03: Is my child having their tears?
54:27
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
54:28
SPEAKER_03: How often,
54:30
SPEAKER_03: ever,
54:30
SPEAKER_03: or non-existent,
54:32
SPEAKER_03: if it is stuck,
54:33
SPEAKER_03: if they are not able to have those tears for whatever reason,
54:37
SPEAKER_03: because there could be multiple reasons,
54:43
SPEAKER_03: if we take that attack,
54:46
SPEAKER_03: they're expressing this frustration through aggression,
54:51
SPEAKER_03: and we give them more things that aren't working on top of it,
54:57
SPEAKER_03: through whatever consequences we're putting on,
55:00
SPEAKER_03: you know,
55:01
SPEAKER_03: that we're trying to contain it,
55:02
SPEAKER_03: we're just going to get in that reactive mode ourselves,
55:07
SPEAKER_03: it's going to make the problem worse.
55:09
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
55:11
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
55:13
SPEAKER_03: And this is where I kind of want to remind,
55:16
we've talked about this last episode where you're talking about
55:18
those snow plow
55:19
SPEAKER_03: parents,
55:20
SPEAKER_03: the snow plow parents that are kind of maybe doing too much to not,
55:25
SPEAKER_03: they're trying to plow away the nature's futilities,
55:29
SPEAKER_03: which is another indirect,
55:31
SPEAKER_03: right?
55:32
If we can't be the agent of futility because there's already
55:36
too much frustration in the system,
55:39
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes nature presents something,
55:41
and we can come alongside that and help them find their tears
55:44
in something that's
55:44
SPEAKER_03: smaller.
55:48
But going back,
55:49
I remember I said we've got to keep a couple things in mind
55:51
here.
55:53
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we do have to make things work for our child.
55:56
And this is one of those examples that if there's a
56:02
defendedness against futility,
56:04
SPEAKER_03: tons of frustration in the system,
56:08
SPEAKER_03: We do,
56:09
SPEAKER_03: because we are the mature ones,
56:11
SPEAKER_03: we do have to compensate for that by trying to make things work.
56:18
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
56:21
SPEAKER_03: Can you give an example?
56:22
SPEAKER_03: Oh, gosh.
56:30
SPEAKER_03: So here we go.
56:32
SPEAKER_03: This is a general, okay?
56:33
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
56:37
SPEAKER_03: And this is going to be so uncomfortable, just so uncomfortable.
56:44
SPEAKER_03: If our child is erupting in aggression,
56:52
we're going to oftentimes want to react by taking something
56:54
away from them as a
56:55
SPEAKER_03: consequence.
56:56
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
56:56
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
56:58
If you disrespect me,
57:02
if you can't behave,
57:05
if you do this,
57:06
you're going to lose this.
57:13
In a child that is already overloaded with frustration,
57:18
that is going to do two things.
57:20
SPEAKER_03: It's going to give them another thing that's not working on top of it,
57:23
SPEAKER_03: and it's going to drive a wedge in your relationship.
57:27
SPEAKER_02: It's going to make you unsafe.
57:29
SPEAKER_03: which is what they potentially, and it's going to make them hate you.
57:32
SPEAKER_03: I mean, like you are taking, you're using their attachment against them.
57:38
SPEAKER_03: And if we,
57:38
SPEAKER_03: whether it's a phone or a video,
57:40
SPEAKER_03: you know,
57:40
SPEAKER_03: whatever it is now,
57:43
SPEAKER_03: like there's going to be times when we take things away and I'm not,
57:48
SPEAKER_03: I do that.
57:49
SPEAKER_03: We, sometimes we may have to, okay.
57:51
SPEAKER_03: We have to
57:55
SPEAKER_03: we can push into that futility,
57:57
but there's going to be other times when it's not going to be
58:03
helpful and could
58:04
actually work against us and disconnect us further in our
58:14
relationship to our
58:15
SPEAKER_03: child.
58:19
SPEAKER_03: And so,
58:22
You know,
58:22
in a non-adaptive child,
58:24
it's like,
58:25
how can we lessen the separation?
58:28
SPEAKER_03: How can we lessen the separation?
58:31
If separation is at the root of these primal emotions that are
58:35
something not
58:36
SPEAKER_03: working,
58:37
SPEAKER_03: pushing into futility.
58:40
SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like when I'm talking about that retreat into relationship.
58:44
SPEAKER_03: Stop trying to teach a lesson.
58:48
And in that incident or outside of it,
58:55
your focus becomes on your connection.
58:59
Well,
59:00
and let's look at what we're working toward here with these
59:06
soft tears.
59:08
SPEAKER_02: and the idea of taking something away.
59:13
If it is the conditions that invite that softness,
59:18
I think we've got to be considering that.
59:19
SPEAKER_02: Is this going to contribute to softness in my child?
59:24
SPEAKER_02: And again, these aren't tears of frustration or resistance or upset.
59:29
SPEAKER_02: We're looking for, excuse me,
59:35
SPEAKER_02: those soft tears of futility and adaptation, and they're different.
59:39
SPEAKER_02: And so it's back to that, what we see is going to determine what we do.
59:49
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just kind of, I find myself now just sort of recapping this whole
59:57
SPEAKER_02: idea of,
59:59
of this third off ramp and what's really happening here and how
1:00:03
they are defended
1:00:04
SPEAKER_02: against those tears and,
1:00:07
SPEAKER_02: and,
1:00:07
SPEAKER_02: and the parents likely to see based on cultural conditioning,
1:00:20
SPEAKER_02: disrespect,
1:00:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:00:24
SPEAKER_02: and,
1:00:24
SPEAKER_02: and that our tendency then is to
1:00:28
SPEAKER_02: impose a consequence to address the disrespect.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_03: And if our child is not defended against futility,
1:00:39
SPEAKER_03: that can act as an agent of futility for them,
1:00:41
SPEAKER_03: to bring them up against that limit.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_03: It can serve a role.
1:00:48
But if they're defended against it,
1:00:49
it's going to lock the defenses in further.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_03: I think that's what I'm trying to
1:00:56
parse out here and it's it's hard for me because um yeah I'm
1:01:01
having a hard time
1:01:02
coming up with like a concrete example of making something work
1:01:07
and I'm kind of
1:01:07
operating more in the negative where I'm like don't don't do
1:01:13
something that's going
1:01:14
to further divide you from your child and don't do and and what
1:01:19
will do that is
1:01:22
SPEAKER_03: using something that they care about against them mm-hmm
1:01:28
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_03: So now they're more frustrated.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_03: They're more angry at you.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_03: And you're harming your relationship.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_03: Because you're using something that they're attached to against them,
1:01:48
SPEAKER_03: which undermines their ability to rest in you,
1:01:51
SPEAKER_03: to trust you,
1:01:52
SPEAKER_02: to feel safe with you.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_02: because you also really want to be the agent of comfort.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_02: They need to know.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_03: Right, the angel of comfort, yep.
1:02:05
SPEAKER_02: Oh, angel of comfort.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_02: I've been saying it wrong the whole time.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_02: I've been saying agent.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_02: It's okay.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_02: I like angel, angel of comfort.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_02: That ideally that's what they see in you.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_02: And you can play both agent of futility and angel of comfort.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_02: And that also allows them to rest.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_02: But so we're talking about too much frustration in the system.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_02: We don't want to contribute to the frustration.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_02: And I,
1:02:46
SPEAKER_02: Can I jump to what I see as an impediment to this?
1:02:52
And this is when mom has too much frustration in the system,
1:02:58
in her system.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_02: And this is a bit of what I was talking about earlier too, the
1:03:13
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully,
1:03:14
SPEAKER_02: like having another way to see this,
1:03:17
to understand that this is about frustration in the system can
1:03:25
at some point give
1:03:26
SPEAKER_02: you that pause.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_02: A lot of times, too, we're just running on programs.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
1:03:34
And we're just going to fall into what we know,
1:03:37
the same old dynamic that escalates.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_02: And on the other side, we're like, ah, it happened again.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_02: And I put more division, right?
1:03:49
SPEAKER_02: I contributed to the chasm, the divide.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:03:55
Because of my own frustration or just because I didn't have the
1:03:59
capacity in the
1:03:59
moment to take that pause and first address my own frustration
1:04:10
or hurt or upset.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_02: So that I could soften and be there for my child.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:04:21
So if you don't pause right away,
1:04:25
you still get another chance,
1:04:27
which is at any time after that.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_02: At any time after that.
1:04:34
Are you talking about repair or just like the next time there's
1:04:37
frustration in the system?
1:04:39
SPEAKER_03: No.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_03: In the middle, you've jumped in.
1:04:41
SPEAKER_03: You've reacted.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_03: You didn't get ahead of yourself to pause before reacting.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_03: You've reacted.
1:04:48
SPEAKER_03: Well, you can stop reacting.
1:04:50
SPEAKER_03: You can pause once you've started reacting.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_03: Never too late.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_03: This is the muscle that we're going to work to develop over time.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:05:01
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we're going to stop it before we act.
1:05:03
SPEAKER_03: Other times we're not, but we can still say, wow.
1:05:09
SPEAKER_03: I'm, you know, I love you, but I realize I need to step away.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to be back in a couple minutes.
1:05:15
And you,
1:05:16
you know,
1:05:16
I'm going to leave you here in your room or wherever you're at.
1:05:21
Get them to a place where they're going to be contained by,
1:05:24
you know,
1:05:25
safe,
1:05:25
contained.
1:05:27
SPEAKER_03: And then you say, I'm going to be right back, you know.
1:05:30
SPEAKER_03: And you walk away to...
1:05:34
SPEAKER_03: to regain your,
1:05:36
SPEAKER_03: what we would,
1:05:36
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:05:37
SPEAKER_03: we're going to talk about in an upcoming episode,
1:05:39
SPEAKER_03: that mix of emotions,
1:05:41
SPEAKER_03: that integrative functioning,
1:05:43
SPEAKER_03: where you can hold two things at once.
1:05:45
SPEAKER_03: I am hurt, but I love my child.
1:05:48
SPEAKER_03: So I can,
1:05:50
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:05:51
SPEAKER_03: what the jargon,
1:05:52
SPEAKER_03: or not jargon,
1:05:53
but the terminology of the moment being this idea of emotional
1:05:56
regulation.
1:05:57
SPEAKER_03: Well, essentially that's
1:06:00
Being able to hold our mixed feelings,
1:06:04
which we're going to talk a lot more about soon,
1:06:06
but.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_03: You know, we need to step away.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_03: We need the time out.
1:06:12
SPEAKER_03: You know, we need the time out.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_03: And so we can take that.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_03: We can take that in those incidents and come back from a softer energy.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, time out can be a little bit of a loaded term.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_02: But yes, time away.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_02: Time to regroup.
1:06:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm using it playfully in that, you know, we've been...
1:06:37
Our culture has given these to our children,
1:06:39
but it's probably the adults who need them.
1:06:43
SPEAKER_02: I need a moment to gather myself.
1:06:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'll be right back.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm not punishing you by walking away.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
1:06:54
SPEAKER_02: Or isolating you.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_02: You're not too much.
1:06:57
SPEAKER_02: Ooh, dance in a fine line there.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_02: Like, yes.
1:07:03
I mean,
1:07:03
even if you've got to step away,
1:07:05
I think it can send that message.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_02: So how do you, how do you frame that?
1:07:11
SPEAKER_02: So it's not a, you're, you're, they're not picking up.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_02: You're too much for me.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that goes right back to the alpha.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_03: That you're faking it until you make it.
1:07:29
You may feel like your child is too much for you,
1:07:31
but you cannot let them see it.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_02: And if you suspect they see it, that's a time to repair.
1:07:42
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
1:07:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
1:07:45
SPEAKER_03: and by repairing,
1:07:47
SPEAKER_03: you're taking responsibility for the repair,
1:07:51
SPEAKER_03: which moves you into that alpha position.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_03: You shift out of that victim,
1:07:57
SPEAKER_03: the feeling that they're too much,
1:07:59
SPEAKER_03: that they've betrayed you,
1:08:01
SPEAKER_03: they've hurt you,
1:08:03
SPEAKER_03: you're scared of them.
1:08:04
Whatever it may be,
1:08:05
and you're shifting into that place of,
1:08:10
I am bigger than this problem.
1:08:13
SPEAKER_02: Okay,
1:08:14
SPEAKER_02: the bigger than to me feels a big part of the adaptive,
1:08:18
that that would be a fruit of the adaptive process is feeling
1:08:21
bigger than I can
1:08:22
SPEAKER_02: handle this really difficult thing.
1:08:24
SPEAKER_02: I can handle it when my child is in this attacking energy.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_02: It honestly reminds me of a fairy tale that Lisa Marciano tells often.
1:08:39
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:08:44
called Tam Lin and I know she's used it with families in this
1:08:49
situation and it's I
1:08:54
think a maiden basically her fiancé is captured by the fairies
1:09:01
and she's madly in
1:09:02
love she just wants him back she's so hurt by the loss of her
1:09:05
fiancé and she's told
1:09:07
by the wise age or whoever she goes to for support on this that
1:09:12
the fairies will be
1:09:13
SPEAKER_02: coming through
1:09:16
SPEAKER_02: you need to be in this place at this time.
1:09:18
SPEAKER_02: They'll ride through on horses.
1:09:20
And as they ride through,
1:09:21
you need to pull your fiance off the horse and hold him.
1:09:29
And as you're holding him,
1:09:31
he's going to turn into all of these scary beasts.
1:09:35
SPEAKER_02: He's going to become this writhing snake.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_02: He's going to turn into this
1:09:39
SPEAKER_02: Tiger, right?
1:09:42
SPEAKER_02: And it's going to be very difficult to hang on.
1:09:45
SPEAKER_02: And you just got to hang on.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_02: And if you hang on long enough,
1:09:52
SPEAKER_02: and I'm going to say loosely enough,
1:09:56
SPEAKER_02: he's going to settle down and return to himself.
1:10:00
SPEAKER_02: And you'll have him back.
1:10:04
And I think adolescence and young adulthood feels a lot like
1:10:09
that period where
1:10:12
SPEAKER_02: we're there to hold them,
1:10:15
SPEAKER_02: to contain it.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:10:20
SPEAKER_02: So that they can return to themselves.
1:10:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:10:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:10:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_03: And it kind of brings us back to that.
1:10:34
SPEAKER_03: I was thinking about this before we started recording, that trust.
1:10:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:10:43
SPEAKER_03: That this does require a leap of faith.
1:10:48
Moving out of the mode of punishment and consequence,
1:10:56
you know,
1:10:56
and into the mode of like,
1:11:01
SPEAKER_03: Just, you know, this aggression needs to come out.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_03: The frustration needs to come out.
1:11:07
Stepping into that traffic,
1:11:08
directing the traffic and the traffic circle,
1:11:11
you know?
1:11:13
SPEAKER_03: And if our child can't get to their tears,
1:11:17
SPEAKER_03: we accept it,
1:11:17
SPEAKER_03: but we know they have the potential,
1:11:20
SPEAKER_03: okay?
1:11:21
SPEAKER_03: We know that that's, we trust, we know what they're being moved by.
1:11:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:11:27
SPEAKER_03: And it's got to come out somehow.
1:11:29
SPEAKER_03: And we're in it to win it, so to speak.
1:11:31
SPEAKER_03: We're in it for the long haul.
1:11:35
That this is our work is to walk alongside them and try to
1:11:42
cultivate more of those
1:11:43
SPEAKER_03: conditions for adaptation.
1:11:45
SPEAKER_03: that that's over the long term.
1:11:49
SPEAKER_03: And I've mentioned this briefly before, and I'll mention it again today.
1:11:54
SPEAKER_03: When I came to understand my son was not adaptive, it took me two years.
1:11:59
SPEAKER_03: It took me two years.
1:12:01
SPEAKER_03: Okay?
1:12:01
SPEAKER_03: And
1:12:07
SPEAKER_03: So it's just, this requires patience.
1:12:11
SPEAKER_03: It requires engagement in play in,
1:12:18
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:12:18
SPEAKER_03: I remember telling you,
1:12:19
SPEAKER_03: I didn't even know I was doing this during this time,
1:12:22
SPEAKER_03: but I would play this one Greg Brown song called Cold and Dark and Wet.
1:12:27
SPEAKER_03: I'd be making pancakes in the kitchen in the morning.
1:12:30
SPEAKER_03: So outside of the incidents of
1:12:32
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:12:32
SPEAKER_03: frustration or defenses or,
1:12:35
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:12:35
SPEAKER_03: all of these things,
1:12:37
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:12:37
SPEAKER_03: just on a Sunday morning,
1:12:39
SPEAKER_03: Saturday morning,
1:12:40
SPEAKER_03: and I'd play this funny song where Greg Brown is just like,
1:12:43
SPEAKER_03: life is,
1:12:44
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:12:44
SPEAKER_03: I felt like a drunk in a pond,
1:12:47
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:12:49
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:12:49
SPEAKER_03: just everything is cold and dark and wet.
1:12:51
It's just,
1:12:52
but we would,
1:12:53
we would act it out,
1:12:55
smile,
1:12:56
you know,
1:12:56
play it out secondhand.
1:12:59
SPEAKER_03: This is this indirect thing.
1:13:02
SPEAKER_03: Of moving through melancholy that wasn't real.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_03: It wasn't real.
1:13:06
SPEAKER_03: We were just trying it on.
1:13:08
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
1:13:08
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_03: And.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_02: Which is what.
1:13:11
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
1:13:12
SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
1:13:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:13:12
SPEAKER_02: What were you going to say?
1:13:13
SPEAKER_02: I was just going to say that's what play is, is trying things on.
1:13:17
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
1:13:18
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:13:19
SPEAKER_02: In a lower stakes environment.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_03: It's not for real.
1:13:24
SPEAKER_02: It's not for real.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:13:27
SPEAKER_03: But I think it allowed him to soften over time.
1:13:33
SPEAKER_03: You know, these different things just brought in some more flexibility.
1:13:41
SPEAKER_03: And it was not when the stakes were high, like you're saying.
1:13:44
SPEAKER_03: It wasn't high stakes.
1:13:45
SPEAKER_03: It was when we were in a good place together, where we were connected.
1:13:50
SPEAKER_03: There was a way for us to connect.
1:13:52
SPEAKER_03: But it was also kind of priming this ability to,
1:13:57
SPEAKER_03: to grapple with the dark side of life in a sense, you know?
1:14:01
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
1:14:03
SPEAKER_03: And so, so it's just to say that these things take time.
1:14:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:14:13
SPEAKER_02: Go for it.
1:14:14
I want to come back to what I see as an impediment and,
1:14:20
and encourage that.
1:14:23
Also noticing what you see in yourself and your own access to
1:14:29
those soft tears,
1:14:30
SPEAKER_02: your own adaptability that is going to be needed to provide the softness,
1:14:42
SPEAKER_02: that soft place for your child.
1:14:47
SPEAKER_02: Do you have thoughts on that?
1:14:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:14:53
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:14:54
SPEAKER_03: you're going to hear me with a lot of repetition when I talk about this,
1:14:58
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:15:00
SPEAKER_03: yes,
1:15:01
SPEAKER_03: it is about knowing how to access your own tears or figuring it out,
1:15:08
which is often going to be very similar to what you have to
1:15:12
learn for your child
1:15:13
SPEAKER_03: where,
1:15:15
SPEAKER_03: um,
1:15:16
SPEAKER_03: where you can get access that emotion and,
1:15:20
SPEAKER_03: and,
1:15:22
SPEAKER_03: Feel the disappointment.
1:15:23
SPEAKER_03: Feel the sadness.
1:15:29
SPEAKER_03: But also for yourself, get out of that work mode.
1:15:34
SPEAKER_03: Get out of that direct effort at enacting change.
1:15:38
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:15:39
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:15:43
SPEAKER_03: Because you're not going to be able to open up those avenues of play,
1:15:47
SPEAKER_03: which I think are critical to the non-adaptive child.
1:15:52
SPEAKER_03: I just do.
1:15:52
SPEAKER_03: Because it's my direct experience.
1:15:57
SPEAKER_03: With a sensitive child, a hypersensitive child, these things take time.
1:16:02
SPEAKER_03: And play is such an avenue for getting to them properly.
1:16:10
SPEAKER_03: But if I'm always in work mode,
1:16:13
SPEAKER_03: if I'm always trying to enact change in my child,
1:16:18
SPEAKER_03: I cannot be playful.
1:16:23
SPEAKER_03: Because I'm outcome, outcome, outcome.
1:16:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:16:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:16:33
SPEAKER_03: And therefore I'm frustrated.
1:16:36
SPEAKER_02: Futility, futility, futility.
1:16:43
SPEAKER_02: And we're driven to work if we think we are failing our child.
1:16:50
SPEAKER_02: You know,
1:16:50
if we see that our child is not adaptive and we think that's a
1:16:53
failure on our part,
1:16:54
SPEAKER_02: we might feel compelled to be in work mode.
1:16:58
And what a gift,
1:17:00
I would say,
1:17:01
to know that the answer is actually stop working and play more.
1:17:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:17:08
SPEAKER_02: Play and connect.
1:17:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:17:14
And what brings you to your soft ears in small ways so you can
1:17:18
let some of that
1:17:19
SPEAKER_02: move through you a little at a time.
1:17:22
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:17:26
SPEAKER_03: And it can be a coming alongside your child.
1:17:28
SPEAKER_03: Like if you,
1:17:29
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:17:30
SPEAKER_03: pick out a sad movie or,
1:17:31
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:17:31
SPEAKER_03: something with just a touch of melancholy or,
1:17:35
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:17:35
SPEAKER_03: that that touches upon these themes or,
1:17:37
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:17:38
SPEAKER_03: and sit alongside next to you don't even have to make eye contact.
1:17:43
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:17:43
SPEAKER_03: it's just that going back to that attachment at the senses,
1:17:47
SPEAKER_03: we are with each other physically.
1:17:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:17:50
SPEAKER_03: And we're taking in, you know, a movie or a show.
1:17:55
And maybe we picked it because we know there's a touch of
1:17:59
sadness,
1:18:00
you know.
1:18:02
SPEAKER_03: Not too much, but like a touch.
1:18:05
SPEAKER_03: And you can both experience it side by side.
1:18:11
SPEAKER_03: You know, you don't need to necessarily talk about it.
1:18:13
SPEAKER_03: You don't need to process it.
1:18:14
SPEAKER_03: But it's just sharing that together, you know.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_03: That's just another example that comes to mind.
1:18:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:18:27
SPEAKER_02: And I know it's getting a bit long.
1:18:30
SPEAKER_02: And I just wanted to say one more thing.
1:18:32
SPEAKER_02: Another thing that comes to mind is agenda.
1:18:35
SPEAKER_02: You talked about teaching, you know, this need we have to teach our kids.
1:18:43
SPEAKER_02: And there is time for that.
1:18:44
But I think if you are experiencing a lot of this frustration
1:18:48
in the system and you
1:18:51
SPEAKER_02: notice that you have an agenda,
1:18:55
SPEAKER_02: let the agenda go and make it about playing connection.
1:18:58
That that is now top priority if you want to move the
1:19:04
frustration out of the system
1:19:05
SPEAKER_02: and reduce the amount of attacking energy for both of you.
1:19:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
1:19:11
SPEAKER_02: Let go of the agenda.
1:19:13
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
1:19:14
SPEAKER_02: Especially if your kids are adults.
1:19:17
SPEAKER_02: Oh.
1:19:17
SPEAKER_02: There's nothing you need to teach them right now.
1:19:20
SPEAKER_02: No.
1:19:22
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
1:19:23
Okay.
1:19:25
SPEAKER_03: Well, there's so much more we could talk about.
1:19:28
SPEAKER_03: And some things that perhaps we did not get to.
1:19:33
SPEAKER_03: Just, I think one, my closing thought is, or my closing...
1:19:41
SPEAKER_03: Words are, number one, I hope this has been helpful.
1:19:48
I hope this has helped through this example to really bring
1:19:54
home some of these
1:19:57
SPEAKER_03: bigger ideas,
1:19:58
SPEAKER_03: like I started with,
1:20:00
SPEAKER_03: what we see today.
1:20:02
SPEAKER_03: shapes what we do.
1:20:04
SPEAKER_03: So I hope as you walk away from this episode,
1:20:07
and maybe some of this content is a repeat of things we've
1:20:10
talked about in the
1:20:10
SPEAKER_03: past,
1:20:11
SPEAKER_03: or that you've heard in the Stoic Mom community in the past,
1:20:14
SPEAKER_03: but just this basic concept of aggression,
1:20:18
SPEAKER_03: coming from frustration,
1:20:19
SPEAKER_03: something's not working,
1:20:21
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:20:21
SPEAKER_03: I hope you can carry that,
1:20:24
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:20:24
SPEAKER_03: with you and start,
1:20:27
SPEAKER_03: if nothing else,
1:20:28
SPEAKER_03: just to start to see
1:20:31
SPEAKER_03: Where aggression is happening in yourself,
1:20:33
SPEAKER_03: in your child,
1:20:34
SPEAKER_03: in those around you,
1:20:36
SPEAKER_03: and start to have this lens of seeing underneath it,
1:20:40
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:20:41
SPEAKER_03: and see what that offers,
1:20:43
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:20:44
SPEAKER_03: see what that offers in terms of...
1:20:48
SPEAKER_03: You know, you always bring up self-compassion.
1:20:52
SPEAKER_03: This is a doorway to compassion, right?
1:20:54
SPEAKER_03: This is a doorway to having compassion for ourselves.
1:20:58
SPEAKER_03: This is a doorway for having compassion for our child,
1:21:02
SPEAKER_03: which for some of us may be very,
1:21:04
SPEAKER_03: very hard.
1:21:05
SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, yes.
1:21:08
So I hope it allows that way to open for those for whom it may
1:21:14
feel closed right now.
1:21:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:21:22
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening.
1:21:23
SPEAKER_02: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
1:21:27
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1:21:32
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1:21:37
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1:21:39
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1:21:40
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1:21:42
comments and hope you
1:21:44
SPEAKER_02: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.