Latest / Ghost Cult Magazine Podcast / PODCAST: Episode 899 - Entertainment lawyer Randy Ojeda, Esq Shares Advice For Any Heavy Band to Follow

Transcript

PODCAST: Episode 899 - Entertainment lawyer Randy Ojeda, Esq Shares Advice For Any Heavy Band to Follow · Ghost Cult Magazine Podcast

0:00
I've seen first hand what bad management can do versus good
0:04
management. You know, I kind of know what,
0:06
what to look out for and, and how artists can be better served
0:09
by the full experience that I have as opposed to just, you
0:13
know, a lot of lawyers go straight from law school into
0:15
practicing and they don't really get that industry perspective.
0:18
See, with, with music, it's like the law is really simple.
0:21
Like it just is, you know, I'm not going to hide that.
0:23
It's, it's, it's pretty basic, if you can, if you can
0:27
understand contracts, you can understand music law.
0:29
It's just, you know, the, the difficulty comes with
0:32
understanding the industry and how, you know, the music
0:36
industry works and how things are built, you know, in this
0:40
space versus any other industry because it's music is very
0:44
different than, you know, regular business practices or,
0:47
or whatever. Like it's, it's its own thing,
0:50
you know? So I think my background really
0:52
gives me a good solid foundation for explaining that and
0:56
unpacking that for musicians. What's up everybody?
1:05
It's Keith from goescoldman.com. I am super excited today to be
1:08
joined by Randy Ojeda, lawyer, music industry lawyer and
1:13
expert. I don't know if there's an it
1:15
should be an Esquire. JD what is your official title?
1:19
Technically Esquire I I worked really hard for those 3 letters,
1:22
so yeah, Esq. Yeah, law school is brutal.
1:25
I don't know if anyone when I graduated, I have an
1:28
undergraduate degree in business management and I already kind of
1:31
knew I was going to continue to be in marketing and like half of
1:34
my class got an MBA. A handful of the real, real
1:38
bright ones went to law school and it was brutal for them, but
1:41
they got through it. Blessed.
1:43
Not, not the good kind of brutal.
1:45
Not the good, not not the metal riffs.
1:47
Brutal. Like, brutal on their personal
1:49
lives, mental acuity, sobriety, everything.
1:53
And I ended up going into advertising, so lucky me.
1:56
So, you know, how do we meet? I've been a fan of yours for a
1:59
while. You've appeared on a couple of
2:01
podcasts like the C ^2 music podcast.
2:03
Those are friends of ours in the in the business space, in the
2:06
music industry space. And I was always very impressed
2:09
with, you know, how you carry yourself and how you explain
2:12
things. So we're not here today to
2:14
actually give bands any legal advice, but we're going to just,
2:18
we're going to get to know you a little bit and then we're going
2:20
to spit ball some scenarios. And I wanted to live take on it.
2:24
And you know, I, I'm, it won't be too what you you might be
2:27
familiar with most of these things, so you probably won't be
2:30
on the spot. But let's dial it back for a
2:32
second and just give us a little bit of an elevator speech about
2:36
your career. And how did you you know what
2:37
made you in your your interest in law and music and how did you
2:41
get here today? So, you know, like a lot of
2:43
people, I, I kind of grew up playing in bands.
2:46
You know, I played bass in a, in a, in a metal band and some punk
2:50
bands. And, you know, did, did that
2:52
whole thing growing up and in high school and into college.
2:55
And then when college ended, you know, I, I just went, I went to
2:59
law school and I thought I was, thought I was done with music.
3:02
But you know how they say, like, you know, just when you think
3:04
you're out, they pull you right back in.
3:05
And sure enough, you know, while I was in law school, I started
3:09
managing an artist and then started managing more artists.
3:13
You know, I started managing some producers, people in hip
3:15
hop, in pop and rock, and, you know, just started utilizing my
3:20
skill set to be a manager, not necessarily a lawyer.
3:23
So when law school ended, rather than taking the bar and becoming
3:28
a lawyer, I kept managing. I was just like, I really like
3:31
what I'm doing. I, I enjoy the clients that I
3:33
have. So let me just keep doing this.
3:34
I, you know, turned it into an official management company,
3:38
started building that up. Did that for years and years.
3:41
Also did A and R for a distribution company and a
3:44
couple labels and just kind of kept working in the music
3:47
industry. And I thought I had put the law
3:49
stuff behind me. But, you know, what happened was
3:52
I started meeting so many music attorneys and I was realizing
3:57
that they weren't really serving the independent music community
4:00
the way I thought that that community should be served, you
4:03
know, and they weren't doing things the way that I thought I
4:06
could do it, you know? So, you know, I always had in
4:09
the back of my mind, well, maybe I can reshuffle and become a
4:13
lawyer again, you know, And then the pandemic happened and
4:16
suddenly I was like, well, this is my chance because I went from
4:19
being very, very busy to very, very not busy as most people did
4:23
during the pandemic. So I, I, you know, took the bar,
4:27
I, I passed thankfully. And then I started this music
4:30
law firm and you know, I, I was able to combine my years as a
4:34
manager and A&R and everything with the, my legal training and
4:38
start a music focused law firm that's really built for
4:42
independent artists, independent labels, independent musicians.
4:45
And you know, I haven't really looked back.
4:47
Right on. That's amazing.
4:48
Thanks for unpacking all of that.
4:50
Out of curiosity, I really don't know where you're from, but I
4:53
wanted to ask where you took the bar.
4:55
Yeah, so I'm, I'm born and raised in Tampa, FL, the capital
4:59
of death metal, if you will. And I actually went to law
5:03
school in Chicago at Loyola Chicago.
5:05
So ended up taking the bar in Florida.
5:08
But you know, definitely had had some fun in Chicago in the the
5:12
cold bitter winter and then moved back to sun, Tampa, FL.
5:16
You can definitely appreciate why all those death metal bands
5:19
from Buffalo went down to Tampa after the few first few Tampa
5:22
bands broke out, because, you know, why would we not live in
5:26
Tampa when you, you know, why would I do this?
5:28
But Chicago rules. I'm a huge fan.
5:30
Great music scene there. Great scene, yeah.
5:32
Super, super fun. By the way, the Florida Bar is
5:35
also supposed to be hard. It is California, New York,
5:38
Boston, Florida I believe are some of the hardest bar exams
5:42
maybe? Yeah, it's, it's, it's
5:44
difficult, especially the actual Florida section of the bar is,
5:48
is particularly difficult for no reason.
5:51
You know, it doesn't need to be that hard, but I guess, you
5:54
know, a lot of people want to live in Florida for whatever
5:56
reason. So you know.
5:58
Florida could be the reason, though.
5:59
Like, yeah, as a Floridian, you know, you have to, yeah, like
6:03
I've been to Orlando and Tampa and I was like, nice to visit.
6:08
I think you got to be a certain, have a certain temerity, similar
6:11
to being a former New Yorker. You got to have a certain, you
6:14
know, a certain way to carry yourself to survive down there
6:17
just in life. Yeah, well, it's, it's funny
6:19
because, you know, after living in Chicago for a bit, I realized
6:22
that Tampa kind of feels like a Midwest City.
6:25
It's just in the South, you know, but it has that sort of
6:28
small town Y type of, you know, everybody's friendly kind of
6:32
vibe. Whereas like, you know, Orlando,
6:33
Miami are much more like Northeast cities, much more New
6:37
York and Miami than it is in Tampa.
6:40
You know, not saying that is a bad thing or a good thing or
6:42
anything, but just, you know, that's, that's what I've
6:44
experienced. Right on.
6:46
I appreciate that. Just just to unpack a little bit
6:49
more of your journey because I'm super fascinated by this of the
6:52
potential advantage that it gives you being, you know,
6:56
having being a lawyer and running a management company.
7:00
I don't know if that idiot proofs anything or protects your
7:04
artists a little bit more, but like, clearly it's advantageous
7:07
to have someone on the staff with like the legal prowess when
7:11
when you're in this business with contracts and complaints
7:14
and negotiations and things got to come in handy.
7:17
Yeah, it definitely gives me a unique perspective, especially
7:20
now as a lawyer because I had all those years managing, as,
7:23
you know, I've been in the trenches with artists, you know,
7:26
I've been in a van on the road, you know, for, for dates.
7:30
And, you know, I've, I've seen first hand what bad management
7:34
can do versus good management. You know, I kind of know what,
7:37
what to look out for and, and how artists can be better served
7:41
by, you know, the full experience that I have as
7:44
opposed to just, you know, a lot of lawyers go straight from law
7:46
school into practicing and they don't really get that industry
7:49
perspective. See, with, with music, it's like
7:51
the law is really simple. Like it, it just is, you know,
7:54
I'm not going to hide that. It's, it's, it's pretty basic,
7:57
if you can, if you can understand contracts, you can
8:00
understand music law. It's just, you know, the, the
8:03
difficulty comes with understanding the industry and
8:06
how, you know, the music industry works and how things
8:10
are built, you know, in this space versus any other industry
8:14
because it's music is very different than, you know,
8:17
regular business practices or, or whatever.
8:20
Like it's, it's it's own thing, you know?
8:22
So I think my background really gives me a good solid foundation
8:26
for explaining that and unpacking that for musicians.
8:29
Right on. And was there any particular,
8:33
you know, bit of knowledge or skills outside of law that you
8:37
can now apply and use the law to help you enforce or reinforce
8:42
later on now in your career? Like things you picked up as a
8:45
music manager and A&R, which is a fading practice, as much as
8:50
I'm a huge fan of it. And and so my heroes and idols
8:52
are A&R people. And you know, I wonder what you
8:55
learned on that side of the business that that can augment
8:58
the other side. Yeah.
8:59
I mean, just just picking up little things here and there,
9:01
you know, and, and kind of understanding the particulars of
9:05
different genres. You know, like I recently
9:08
negotiated a deal for an artist who is an electronic DJ.
9:13
And you know, in the electronic music world, it's pretty common
9:18
for a ADJ or somebody to sign like a one off record deal with
9:22
to do one or two songs for one company and then do a couple
9:25
more songs for another company. Very different from bands or,
9:29
you know, whatever, signing these, these bigger deals where
9:31
they do a couple albums or whatever with one entity.
9:34
So I remember talking with the other attorney and I was like,
9:37
well, we need this to be a non exclusive deal for my client so
9:40
that they can sign to other labels and release projects and
9:43
remixes and whatnot with other people.
9:45
And the lawyer didn't understand why they would want to do that.
9:48
And I had to explain exactly what I just said that in the
9:51
electronic world, that's just how it's done.
9:53
You know, like that's they, they need to be kind of open to drop
9:56
remixes to drop, you know, re release these tracks or whatever
9:59
with other entities. And, you know, that's the kind
10:02
of thing that if I hadn't have been in the industry for so long
10:05
and that probably never would have experienced.
10:07
And I would have thought just like this other attorney that,
10:09
well, it's a record deal. So it should be exclusive.
10:11
It should be long term. It should be 3 albums.
10:13
You know, it's, it's not always the case, depending on the genre
10:16
and what you're looking for, you know?
10:18
Yeah, super interesting that you need that basis of of what
10:22
you've done before to make it work now.
10:25
And and and that the other party may not.
10:27
It's not a it's not willful ignorance or being the fair,
10:31
Just no. The.
10:33
Seat, which, you know happens we we run into that all the time
10:38
yeah. Understanding your markets out
10:40
of out of curiosity, what would you say is the number one most
10:45
common mistake bands make? And you know, look, we cover a
10:48
lot of rock and metal, but we also because we don't have rock
10:51
or metal in our name as ghost cults, we kind of can be
10:54
anything. So there's other artists I cover
10:56
and like, and I just covered like what amounts to a hard
11:01
dance artist today that I talked to and they just signed an
11:05
actual record deal to a metal label because they have a metal
11:08
crossover fandom. But I was wondering like, what
11:10
is the most common mistake band folk make?
11:14
They're starting a band, they're starting out.
11:16
I know there's a disconnect. Like it used to just be like
11:19
this, these sepia toned dreams and visions and glossy magazines
11:24
of like, oh, you know, you just show up and play and you create
11:27
music and that's your whole job. It's not your whole job anymore.
11:30
It's a lot, especially in the underground for extreme and
11:33
other kinds of music, rock and metal, it's much more DIY.
11:37
It's less of a team, it's less of people you can lean on for
11:41
things. So what is the most common
11:43
mistake or common mistakes bands starting out make?
11:47
Yeah, I mean, I think starting out, it's just not getting
11:49
documentation, you know, not getting not getting paperwork
11:54
done. And the biggest piece of
11:56
paperwork that you can get as a band is really just called a
12:00
band agreement, you know, for lack of a better term.
12:02
It's it's similar to, you know, you start a business, you put an
12:05
operating agreement together that says, you know, I own 25%
12:09
of this business, you own 25, you know, etcetera, etcetera.
12:12
You need the same kind of thing for a band.
12:13
You need to figure out things like who owns the band name.
12:17
You know, what happens if a member leaves the band?
12:20
You know, what does it mean for the songwriting?
12:21
Who you know, who gets that's what percentage of of what songs
12:25
or what record, who created and owns the logo, you know, like
12:29
these are all things that you know, are seem pretty basic.
12:32
And it's simple when you first start out, but then as you go
12:36
and things get complicated, people start, you know,
12:39
questioning things or, you know, egos come into play.
12:41
And then you end up with like a Queen's Reich situation where
12:44
you have a band that's fighting over their name, you know, for
12:48
years into this lengthy legal battle and who owns the name
12:52
who, who is Queens Reich? You know, so definitely band
12:55
agreements is is first and foremost.
12:57
But secondly, one thing that a lot of bands forget to do.
13:00
If you're not going to do a full band agreement, you know, maybe
13:03
you, you don't think it's necessary, whatever the very
13:05
least, you need split sheets. So every song that you write,
13:09
you need to put a sheet together that says who owns what
13:13
percentage of that song, who contributed what to the song.
13:16
And that needs to be like a very basic common thing that you do.
13:21
It's a big mistake to not do that because you know, you may
13:24
assume that it's, you know, your four band members, you're going
13:26
to be all for one, one for all and split it down the middle.
13:29
But somebody else may have different expectations.
13:32
And so much of this business is those expectations and making
13:35
sure you're aligned in them. So to me, that's the biggest
13:38
mistake. It's just not putting, not
13:40
putting to paper what you're actually thinking when it comes
13:44
to royalties and ownership of music.
13:46
So interesting. And funny that you mentioned
13:48
Queens, right, because I think Todd Latorre, the current singer
13:51
of Queens Rights, a Tampa resident.
13:53
I didn't know that and I think their.
13:55
Drummer their former drummer Co founding drummer Scott Rockefeld
13:59
just updated his social media that he's putting out like a
14:03
record and a vinyl and autograph sticks and bundles for his fans.
14:07
And I didn't really look any deeper into it and I don't know
14:10
what them if it's a new album or if it's just kind of something
14:12
he's trying to do. You hear about journey.
14:16
I can't imagine I'm not a fan of journey at all.
14:19
I when I host karaoke here in San Francisco, I charge people
14:22
like upwards of $50.00 to do a Journey song because if I have
14:25
to, that's fair. I think if I have to.
14:27
Work then I I listen like I understand why they're a
14:30
legendary band and everything, but like, yeah, not for me.
14:33
They're just not my band. So if you want to do journey,
14:35
there's a fee and they're suing each other, right?
14:39
Like there's a disagreement in the business back practices.
14:42
No wonder Steve Perry doesn't want to have anything to do with
14:44
any of them. I can't imagine why he wouldn't
14:47
pick up my calls because he's looking at what you guys are
14:49
doing in a very public fashion. I understand that every
14:53
everything is litigious if you try hard enough, right?
14:56
Like I have AI have a claim, you have a claim, let's let the
14:59
court settle it. But like, what a disaster when
15:01
they're fighting literally over expenses while on tour in the
15:06
public press. Yeah, bizarre and and very
15:11
unfortunate for everybody. And I can imagine I wouldn't
15:13
want to be in that band. No wonder they're they're like
15:16
2, you know, 2 long term members and not even a founder, maybe
15:20
one founder. So, like, it's tough.
15:22
Conversely, what are situations have you been faced with where
15:26
you walked into a new client with existing contracts and
15:30
parameters that were unfavorable?
15:33
You know, what is the appropriate, is there an
15:35
appropriate time to say, hey, can we open this up for
15:38
discussion? Is this ironclad and you're not
15:41
going to let them out of it? Because I think there's an
15:43
impression a lot of people have that like a contract is a
15:46
contract and it's not breakable or amendable.
15:49
And I don't necessarily share that viewpoint.
15:51
I think depending on, you know, certain factors, I know this is
15:54
a very hypothetical one. No, there's.
15:56
There's definitely a lot of situations where, you know, yes,
16:00
the contract is the contract, but you know, if the contract's
16:03
not serving anyone, you know, like I've run into situations
16:06
where a label signed a band, didn't put any resources into
16:10
the band, didn't really promote, didn't really help them.
16:13
Album comes out, of course it flops.
16:15
And then, you know, the question is like, what are we doing here?
16:18
You know, why, Why is the label holding on to this artist?
16:21
Why is the artist trying to stick with this label?
16:23
Like this is just a clear situation where they should just
16:26
go their separate ways and, and move on.
16:28
And, you know, sometimes that comes with, you know, some kind
16:32
of payout or buyout of the agreement.
16:34
Sometimes it's just a, a simple conversation and both people are
16:37
on the same page. It really, it really depends.
16:39
But definitely walked into a lot of situations where bands had
16:43
existing contracts that were either holding them back or just
16:46
not serving them in any way. And we've had to kind of
16:49
navigate and figure out that situation.
16:52
You know, I'm, I'm a big, I'm not a litigator.
16:54
I never go to court. You know, that's not my style.
16:57
That's not what I do. I'm a transactional attorney.
17:00
So, you know, when, when I see a situation like that, you know,
17:04
I, I like to figure out a way that like, let's mediate this.
17:07
Let's figure out how we can come to a solution that works for
17:10
everybody without fighting about it and going to court and
17:13
spending all that time and money and energy into a solution
17:17
that's probably not going to be in anybody's favor in the end.
17:20
You know, let's, let's work on a resolution and, and honestly,
17:23
that's why I like contracts in general.
17:25
You know, I know, you know, in the music industry, there's a
17:28
lot of shady contracts and there's a lot of 1 sided deals.
17:31
But really, if you're doing contracts correctly, it should
17:34
be about fairness. You know, it's not about winning
17:37
or one side getting a leg up on the other.
17:39
It's about what's fair for everybody and putting that in
17:42
writing. So if you're following that
17:44
principle, you know, contracts should be a good thing.
17:46
I think so. I think so.
17:48
And I do see a preponderance of in terms of rights and
17:52
ownership. I've been lucky that the
17:54
majority of my life I've surrounded myself with creative
17:57
people. I'm a creative person.
17:58
I like to thank I've been made music writing, journalism,
18:02
whatever, and and my advertising and marketing stuff is some
18:06
somewhat in the creative realm. And I think the number one
18:09
overarching thing is, like you said, a lack of agreements and
18:13
who owns what people can't eat. We're at it.
18:15
Respect and credit. It sounds cool.
18:17
It's nice to be thanked and liked, but like it's more
18:20
important to have a stake in something.
18:23
And I think there's too many, you know, handshake deals and
18:26
assumptions that we're going to always be boys.
18:30
And you see it over and over again with, you know, problems.
18:33
And I think you're seeing a lot of things now where bands are
18:36
lasting longer than they used to or returning, boomeranging back
18:40
to their career and they don't have the rights to their albums,
18:43
which is the most, you know, the obvious and precious thing here
18:47
is the ability to re release old material that people want.
18:50
So I know a bunch of bands trying their best to get their
18:54
deals reworked or like go back to the the ownership has changed
18:58
hands so many times. Can you just let us have our
19:01
record back so we can do something with it?
19:04
You're not going to anyway. Like it's no value to you.
19:08
I know a very, I cannot name names, but I know a very
19:11
prominent metal core producer who used to just insist on
19:15
always getting points and ownership stakes on records on
19:19
masters. So then, like you can't do
19:21
anything without them in the future.
19:22
They need tacit approval. You need their tacit approval,
19:27
right? Literally like.
19:28
Actual written approval to get a record put out, like, you can't
19:32
do anything with it. So I know a bunch of bands in
19:34
that predicament. And again, I don't want to name
19:36
names because it's a very famous person.
19:37
But like, looking back, is it more important that you
19:41
collected every single dollar and cent from a thing and it
19:43
never got reissued because you were holding it up?
19:46
Or is it more valuable that you came to an agreement, got a, you
19:50
know, maybe collected a fee and let them have their master's
19:52
back? Yeah.
19:53
No, and, and what you say is a good point 'cause it, it's
19:56
tough. Like, you know, you're, you
19:58
start a band and in your teens or your 20s or whatever, and you
20:02
know, you think things are going to go a certain way.
20:04
And then, you know, if you're still in that band in your 30s
20:08
and 40s, it could be a completely different situation
20:10
for what you need out of that deal, You know, so it's, it's,
20:14
it's a complicated world. Absolutely.
20:17
Considering things like PR and social media to be a minefield
20:21
for most artists or not honestly savvy enough.
20:25
You know, most, most people over a certain age shouldn't have a
20:29
phone or social media. Access.
20:32
Yeah, and. You know, we've seen a lot of
20:34
public jousting by bands. Ex members, current members
20:39
about to be ex members. Great Old Filth comes to mind.
20:42
This is a band that I have cared about for a long time.
20:44
We covered them a lot and will continue to do so.
20:48
I'd rather like their latest album.
20:49
I know many members, past and former and current, and they had
20:54
a very public thing where people were getting dragged and I and
20:59
lawyers were brought in. But it seemed like extremely
21:02
vicious and public and no one looks good doing this.
21:06
Like I understand that people felt like, well, I'm compelled
21:09
to unburden my soul and tell everybody this is what's
21:12
happening because a narrative is being painted.
21:14
Then the other, the management and the artist were like, well,
21:17
this is the narrative that we see.
21:19
So one art, one person in that predicament did not have a
21:22
contract. There was some of a handshake
21:23
agreement. The other person was under long
21:26
term contract. They were married.
21:28
So it was assumed that she would just fold in the whatever
21:31
agreement they have with him, but they did not have an
21:33
agreement with her. So she wasn't, you know, that's
21:35
it's like who's an employee? I think a lot of people don't
21:37
understand, and this is where you get these big like, why
21:40
can't we get back this person or why can't this person ever come
21:43
back? I don't want this band without
21:45
that key member I love. Then it's like you don't
21:47
understand sometimes it's not possible legally for a person to
21:51
return back to their band because of whatever separation
21:55
happened or whatever. Situation they're in currently,
21:57
you know, sometimes, you know bands a lot of times bands will
22:02
pay, you know, a retainer to members to make sure that they
22:05
don't join any other bands or start any other projects or do
22:08
anything else you know and and so that they're available for
22:10
touring and and situations where they're needed so it can get
22:14
complicated for sure I think an. NDA is required probably for
22:18
most band agreements going forward.
22:20
Most, most things, yeah, you're not going to.
22:22
Get disgruntled and then leak the contract we sent you.
22:25
That's super. It looks bad on everybody, you
22:28
know, whatever it was. And then it was no defending it
22:31
in the, in the court of public opinion, the kangaroo court, but
22:34
sometimes the court that matters.
22:36
And with with my marketing background and hat on and a
22:39
little bit of my PR sense, I just think these are usually
22:42
bad, just bad in general. Like if you have a legitimate
22:45
ripe and a legitimate case and a legitimate, you know, a
22:49
potential lawsuit, you should not be fanning the flames in in
22:53
the public with the fan base. You're making yourself look bad.
22:56
I think probably yeah. And there but.
22:58
There's situations where like, what else are you gonna do?
23:01
You know, like I represented, you know, I will.
23:04
This will remain nameless. This person will remain nameless
23:07
as well. But I represented a singer from
23:10
a very popular metal band. Who was publicly removed from
23:16
the band? Like, he didn't find out that he
23:18
was out of the band until he read about it on Loudwire or
23:22
Blabbermouth or whatever. You know, like, that's how he
23:24
found out he was kicked out of the band that he was in for over
23:27
a decade, You know, So it's like situations like that.
23:30
He really wanted to fight back by putting out his own
23:33
statement, you know, he wanted because it had already been made
23:36
public without, you know, his consent, without his knowledge.
23:39
And that's a situation where like, yeah, what else are you
23:41
going to do, you know? I mean, yeah, you could fight it
23:44
behind the scenes, but now everybody in the world thinks
23:46
that you're this because that's what, you know, Lamb, Goat said.
23:51
Or whatever, you know? So lamb Goat said is a whole
23:55
thing. Just once I would like someone
23:58
to say like I don't want anyone to find out they got fired from
24:01
the thing because of social media or one of the music
24:05
journalism websites. But just once I'd like to be
24:07
like, I found out from ghost cult just once.
24:09
Just have that crossed off my list, but it's OK yeah lamb goat
24:13
in the comments is a thing. We don't yeah, it's they're
24:17
friends, but like, yeah, I've told them in person, like, you
24:21
know, your, some of your fans are, but that's everybody,
24:24
right? That's that's.
24:25
Yeah, that's the interwebs. They're gonna, they're gonna do
24:28
what they're gonna do. So let me let me talk, talk
24:31
through a few more situations. We had a very originally kind of
24:35
swept under the rug. And then I'm proud to say that
24:37
we jumped on it and helped try to amplify this story.
24:41
So Travis Scott, international rap star, right?
24:44
Huge pop star, hundreds of billions of streams, right.
24:48
He has been working on a sequel to his biggest record that came
24:52
out before the pandemic. It's like all what anyone listen
24:54
to for a couple of years. Yeah.
24:56
And his record came out in July. And when his record was played
25:03
for people people in a very solid Chicago industrial metal
25:09
band, Pixel Grip. But we liked and have covered In
25:12
Your View. Shout out to Pixel.
25:13
Grip Pixel Grip. From Chicago, they had the
25:16
whole, the whole of a song sampled in Travis's song wasn't
25:20
even done well. And they just found out about it
25:23
and they started making a little bit of noise about it and it
25:26
really wasn't getting covered. And I'm not sure why, but so
25:29
their publicist sent the thing around like, hey, can you help
25:31
amplify this story? We actually got a television
25:33
station in Chicago to talk about it.
25:35
And what happened next was wild as the story started to grow and
25:39
a couple of other outlets picked it up.
25:41
A few days after we did, they got a like an Instagram comment
25:47
on their post about it because they've started posting about it
25:49
like, hey, Travis Scott, how about not even a name check?
25:52
We are still a band that just put out a new record.
25:55
You took a song off of our brand new album.
25:58
Not even a name check or an ad or anything.
26:01
So their producer comes in the comments and he's like, oh, we
26:04
love you guys. It's such a fire track.
26:07
Our lawyers will be in touch to settle up with you.
26:10
And everybody was like, what? That's not how a sample is
26:13
cleared, let alone the entire basis of the song.
26:17
So look, Travis Scott is, you know, got millions.
26:20
Pixel Grip is a small underground independent artist
26:22
for the most part. And and, you know, it's just
26:27
like, of all the things that get ripped off by this guy's
26:30
producer. And then people were like in our
26:32
comments defending Travis. Like, Travis doesn't know who
26:35
puts the tracks together. He just goes and does the track.
26:38
And I was like, yeah, his name's on the record.
26:40
The producer knows every detail of the record, or at least
26:43
should, can't, can't play dumb even if he plays dumb.
26:47
And it's like, I thought he made that track.
26:48
You really can't. You can't in this day.
26:50
And he's on Republic Records, like the biggest record label in
26:53
the world, Universal, Right. So like, what in the actual
26:56
fuck? Seriously.
26:58
I wish I was a lawyer and had that case.
27:01
Yeah, me. Honestly, me too.
27:02
Like, yeah, but the sad thing is this happens all the time.
27:08
You know, where people will will sample something and and just
27:12
not clear it. And just, you know, I've heard
27:15
from from producers where they're like, well, if it
27:17
becomes a problem, then I'll figure it out.
27:19
And it's like, well, that's not really how intellectual property
27:22
and copyright infringement works.
27:23
Like if you put out a song with samples that you didn't clear,
27:26
you're committing copyright infringement, you know, and that
27:29
can be, you know, punishable in a variety of different ways, you
27:33
know, So it's, it's not something that I recommend
27:36
doing, but unfortunately it it does happen a lot.
27:39
And, you know, there's a lot of situations like I'm, you know,
27:42
negotiating on behalf of a, a producer now for a rap song that
27:47
shall remain nameless. But it is one of the more
27:50
popular songs of the summer. It's got around 250 million
27:53
streams right now. And we still haven't saw like we
27:57
still haven't come to agreement about the terms.
28:00
So like, they just put this song out, you know, expecting the
28:03
producers to be fine with X amount of money.
28:06
And now it's this massive, massive hit and other people are
28:09
even coming out of the woodwork like Co producers and people
28:12
saying like, Oh well, I contributed this or I added the
28:14
snare or I did that. And now it's this huge mess.
28:17
And there's all this money involved and all these
28:20
stakeholders. And all of that could have been
28:22
resolved before the album came out.
28:25
And then everybody legitimately involved would would have their
28:29
cut and have their credit and it would be solved.
28:31
But instead it's this long legal battle.
28:34
The song's been out for months and months and months.
28:36
It's going to continue to do great numbers and where's the
28:39
money going? Well, right now it's being held
28:41
in a little box. You know, it's like nobody,
28:43
nobody has access to their rights because they didn't clear
28:47
it ahead of time. So I, I'm a big proponent of
28:49
like, let's clear things from the very beginning.
28:52
You know, let's, let's, let's work out the, the splits, let's
28:55
work out the rights and everything before you release.
28:57
But you know, with the way the world works, the way the
29:00
Internet works now, especially with hip hop, like people want
29:02
to release stuff so fast right away.
29:05
You know, they don't want to wait on things.
29:07
They they make last second changes to the album and then
29:10
put it out the next day and all this stuff.
29:12
And it causes a lot of legal issues because of that.
29:15
I think we. We saw that a couple years ago
29:18
with Kanye. Right.
29:19
Sample of the Aussie. Yeah.
29:21
And just assumed it would go unnoticed.
29:23
Yeah. And then Ozzy had a call out.
29:26
Kanye West. I didn't know the timeline was
29:28
gonna go this way. Yeah.
29:29
Where Ozzy? Osbourne the Prince of Darkness,
29:31
was gonna have to tweet about Kanye West stealing one of his
29:35
riffs, Yeah. But Kanye West is a is a perfect
29:38
example of this. Like he's one of those people
29:40
where he's tweaking songs literally up to the last minute
29:43
or even after. It's come out or even after.
29:45
It's come out and back up. Exactly, exactly.
29:47
So, you know, I, I understand, I, I get why even his team would
29:52
be confused about like, well, what do we need to clear?
29:54
Who do we need to clear with? What do we need to approve?
29:57
You know, like it can get complicated when the artists
30:00
themselves don't even know what's going to come out on the
30:02
record, you know? Right on.
30:04
In given the current landscape of the music business,
30:07
especially again for DIY artists, what advice do can you
30:11
give to somebody starting out that sees this like it's
30:14
impossible to make money? Spotify is not created to pay
30:18
artists. Only physical merch really sells
30:21
at a profit. If you can make enough of it
30:23
cheap enough and well enough and build a following, what what do
30:27
you tell a new artist like this is what you get.
30:30
This is maybe this is where you share expectations, should be,
30:33
you know, measured or dream your dreams and go for it.
30:36
Maybe you'll breakthrough, you know, what do you tell someone?
30:39
Yeah, I. Think I'm a big proponent of the
30:41
true fans model, if you will, where it's like, yes, you know,
30:45
everybody wants to have a song with 200 million streams like
30:48
that would be great, but the likelihood of that happening are
30:51
very low. So instead of trying to appeal
30:54
to everybody, you know, you can't be something for
30:56
everybody. You got to be everything for
30:58
somebody quote that you got to you got to be everything for
31:01
somebody. You got to be that artist for,
31:05
you know, even if it's only 100 people or 200 people or
31:08
whatever, those people are your supporters and they're the ones
31:11
that are going to pay for merch. They're the ones that are going
31:13
to pay to see you live. They're the ones that are going
31:15
to support you, you know, So I would say, you know, yes,
31:20
everybody wants to shoot for the stars and become a household
31:22
name and have the biggest song in the world.
31:24
I mean, that would be great. But you can have a career
31:28
without that. Like, I have so many clients who
31:31
you never know their name. You don't know who they are,
31:33
you've never seen their pages, their pictures in the tabloids
31:35
or whatever. But they're making a living
31:37
because they understand that true fan model and they know
31:41
that they can cultivate a fan base, however big or however
31:44
small, and that fan base is going to build them up.
31:48
You know, So I would say compete less with, you know, the Taylor
31:52
Swift's and the Drakes and, you know, compete with yourself.
31:55
You know, just just make, just make whatever you want to make.
31:59
Do it well and look for the audience that believes in that.
32:03
And that's the best advice I can give.
32:05
Right on. I like that.
32:06
That's good. We will quote that and producer
32:10
quote that, and that's how we work here.
32:14
And yeah, that's what we do. Just just for our last couple of
32:17
things, one of the biggest things I'm keeping my eyes on is
32:21
Ticketmaster and Live Nation. My faith in the current
32:24
Department of Justice is very small, but I think it's
32:27
encouraging to see the FTC specifically go after Live
32:31
Nation and Ticketmaster over reseller fees, these escalated
32:36
fees. I don't know if you like Rush at
32:38
all. Rush just announced every.
32:39
Yeah. I'm a huge Rush fan, so yeah,
32:42
I'm trying to figure out which city I want to fly to, to go to
32:45
that tour. That is tough.
32:47
And the tickets are gonna be very pricey if you don't get
32:50
right, probably if you don't get right in on them, they're gonna
32:52
exactly, you know, snapped up quickly.
32:54
And I think this is the test run probably for a larger world tour
32:58
in another year and probably like the Sphere, because they're
33:01
obviously made for this. They're made for this fear, a
33:04
band like Rush. But I do find it super
33:08
interesting about the the the specific FTC inquiry into Live
33:13
Nation, because on paper they look guilty as fuck.
33:17
They have completely colluded. You know, for a while it wasn't
33:21
even internal. Now it's all internal, all
33:23
they're verified, resaled. It's their own bot network.
33:26
It's their own. Every mousetrap leads back to
33:29
them like, and to me it seems very damnable now.
33:33
I don't know know that this government that seems very loves
33:35
monopolies. I would love to see Ticketmaster
33:38
honestly split into two or three companies.
33:40
I don't think they really should own all the venues, all the
33:42
ticketing, all the marketing, all the management.
33:44
Yeah, globally, I think it's too big a juggernaut.
33:47
They have too much cash. They're a humongous cash rich
33:50
company, kind of similar to Google.
33:52
And it doesn't matter if they don't dominate any particular
33:55
thing anymore, they still have the most money of a of a tech
33:58
company. And in this way, Live Nation is
34:00
such a monopoly. And the rest of everybody else
34:03
has just got a small cheese, a piece of the cheese there.
34:06
Yeah. I wonder what the future
34:08
landscape looks like, because I would love to see an
34:11
alternative. The Ticketmaster, I want to see,
34:14
and I don't mean again, StubHub. These are all part of the same
34:18
brand. I even if they're the same
34:20
little fiefdoms that I don't like.
34:22
I'm used StubHub. I used Ticketmaster.
34:25
I think when Ticketmaster had that like pre COVID program
34:30
where they were trying to like give money back to people who
34:32
had been named in the class action lawsuit who got a whole
34:34
bunch of vouchers that were worthless.
34:36
Me who tried to get a bunch of tickets with those vouchers and
34:39
then flip them. This guy cuz I was down on my
34:42
luck and I had to work all of 2019 and I needed the money and
34:45
it didn't. None of them worked.
34:46
And and then most of the vouchers were like for $2.00 and
34:49
cents and change. And you can only apply like 5 or
34:51
6 per purchase per ticket. So it was like, yeah, what,
34:55
what, what reward did I get for this?
34:57
So what, is there a question here?
34:58
The question is, where do you see that landscape going to you?
35:01
I mean, it's clear there's a legit case to be made that Live
35:04
Nation is colluding with, you know, the whole ticket industry
35:08
to rig the prices and rig the game.
35:10
Do you think there will be a meaningful, you know, ruling on
35:13
them? Do you think they'll have to
35:15
change their practices or we're just stuck with this?
35:17
Yeah, I, I hope. So, you know, and there are, you
35:20
know, people that I'm very close to.
35:22
One of them is a guy named Randy Nichols, another Randy who used
35:25
to manage Underoath. And he's he's a very vocal
35:29
supporter of ticket reform and has gone to DC and then spoken,
35:34
you know, another gentleman who owns a venue called the Crowbar
35:37
here in Tampa. His name's Tom de George.
35:39
He's very vocal about, you know, there's a great YouTube video
35:42
with him about how Ticketmaster is squeezing out the small
35:46
rooms. And that's my biggest concern,
35:48
you know, because without the the small, you know, 200 and
35:52
5300 cap rooms, you know, we don't get bands growing.
35:56
You know, you can't just go from playing music in your room to a
36:00
stadium tour right away. You need these small rooms to
36:03
cultivate the scene and build it up.
36:04
And I think by Ticketmaster having such a monopoly on that,
36:08
we're seeing a lot of these small rooms close.
36:10
And that to me is a big problem. And that's something that I'd
36:13
like to see change. You know, I don't know, you
36:16
know, I'm not as well versed on this as, as those two gentlemen
36:19
that I mentioned are, but you know, I would like to see, I
36:22
would like to see some change. And I, I hope that we're getting
36:25
that to that point. And I know that there's been
36:27
some things passed and some laws passed about this, but I don't
36:32
think we've gone far enough. And I think that there's, you
36:35
know, I, I don't think there's a world where the music industry,
36:38
especially the live music industry continues the way it's
36:41
going. Like something has to change.
36:43
We need these small rooms. We need these, you know,
36:46
independent promoters, independent creators.
36:49
And without that, we're just going to be left with a very
36:52
sterile corporate, not fun music industry, you know, So I hope
36:57
things change. I really do.
36:58
You know, shout out again, shout out to Tom de George, if you can
37:02
Google his name, Google Crowbar in Tampa.
37:05
Check out some of the videos he's put out and some of what
37:07
he's saying about this, because I think it's right on the money
37:10
and, you know, I think I think he's got a lot of good opinions
37:14
on it. I, I, I echo everything he says.
37:17
Yeah, we ran. That story when that video
37:19
dropped, Yeah. And we've, you know, covered
37:22
some stuff there also. So, you know, we need, we need
37:25
voices of support and protest. That's the way you get change.
37:28
I know it doesn't seem like it because it's crazy world right
37:31
now. Just the last couple of
37:33
questions. I want to give you back your
37:34
day. What is that platinum record for
37:36
behind you? That is Kodak Blacks.
37:40
I got that for representing a couple of producers on the
37:43
record. I have a couple other gold
37:44
records over here that you can't see in the picture.
37:47
But yeah, I'm pretty proud of that one because it was, you
37:52
know, not only a great record, but a great Florida record, you
37:55
know, so I'm really proud to have been even a small part on
37:58
it. So, you know, shout out.
38:00
Hopefully one of many platinums to come.
38:02
Yeah, nice. Work.
38:03
I hope so. And last question is always a
38:05
wild card question. So what is your favorite album
38:08
of all time? Of all.
38:09
Time all time 1 record. It's got to be rain and blood,
38:14
man. Yeah.
38:15
You know, you know, it's funny. I saw this.
38:18
Must have been, it's been like 10-15 years ago.
38:21
Slayer, it was one of the Rain and Blood anniversary tours and
38:25
they played the whole album from beginning to end.
38:27
And I was like, so stoked on it. And then I get there and like
38:31
we're already like halfway through the album and I'm like,
38:33
wait a minute, this album's like 20 minutes long, you know, like
38:35
it's not a long album. It's not that hard for them to
38:38
throw it into a set, you know? But definitely, you know, it was
38:41
one of one of the first medal records I ever listened to.
38:44
I stole it from my older brother.
38:45
I had the CD on repeat for a long time.
38:48
And Slayer's, you know, became one of my favorite bands.
38:51
They're definitely, you know, a top three for me.
38:53
I've seen them for the last time three times.
38:56
So, you know, maybe I'll get to see him for the last time again.
39:00
But yeah, I think you will. Get ample opportunities.
39:03
I might get a. Chance as they continue.
39:05
To run their way through Danny Wimmer festivals and probably
39:09
more than one one off concert festival thing I mean if Slayer
39:13
wanted to do their own festival and just call it Slayer fest
39:15
people would go I would be there yeah same Satan laughs while you
39:19
eternally rot and here's the Slayer is one of the most famous
39:22
cases of the band agreement not matching people's expectations
39:26
and things like that over many different courses of time and
39:30
lineups. Many.
39:31
Different iterations and. You know, again, tough tough
39:35
when your your stuff gets leaked to people and it's used against
39:39
you. But anyway, big fan Randy, it's
39:42
been a super cool to meet you. I would love to talk to you
39:44
again sometime. Definitely.
39:46
I'm probably at some point in the future going to need to pull
39:51
some legal advice about the music world and and a topic will
39:55
come up that needs debating and talking about.
39:58
And I'd love to include you because you're awesome and I
40:00
appreciate you. Oh no, you.
40:02
You are awesome Sir. I I appreciate you and I
40:04
appreciate ghost cult and and everything you guys do keep keep
40:08
fighting the good fight. Thanks man, my.
40:09
Father was a Sir, not me, but I got you.
40:12
Thank you. I just.
40:13
That's how I stay young. Yeah, I got.
40:15
You that dad joke. About my dad.
40:18
Yeah, there you take care. Keep it.
40:20
Metal. We'll see you soon.
40:21
Keep it metal. See you.
40:22
Thanks for that. That was great.
40:23
We'll see you. Yeah.
40:24
No, no. Thanks so much man, I really
40:26
appreciate you. Have a good rest of the night.