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SERIAL KILLERS MULTIPLY, KILL AT WHIM UNDETECTED · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
0:13
Speaker 2: Are there more serial killers walking amongst us? Or are
0:18
Speaker 2: we just learning about them more often from new victims
0:27
Speaker 2: in the BTK prosecution. In the last days, shares have
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Speaker 2: been searching a rural area in Butler County in Kansas
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Speaker 2: in connection to BTK. Are they onto even more bodies
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Speaker 2: victims of buying torture kill? Dennis Wraiter the dogcatcher? Then,
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Speaker 2: is a Border patrol agent actually a serial killer? And
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Speaker 2: to Oregon where I feel very confident a serial killer
1:01
Speaker 2: is stalking.
1:03
Speaker 3: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
1:06
Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here on crime stories
1:08
Speaker 2: and serious XM one eleven. Speaking of Dennis Rader, it
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Speaker 2: was his idea for the media to call him BTK
1:17
Speaker 2: buying torture kill, so I call him the Dogcatcher. In
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Speaker 2: the last days, a new search listened.
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Speaker 4: During an investigation, investigators do not like to share information
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Speaker 4: with the media because they don't want anything to jeopardize
1:30
Speaker 4: the investigation. However, unless you're in the media or law enforcement,
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Speaker 4: you might not know what can be released to the public.
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Speaker 4: So homeowners of property in Butler County, Kansas, say sheriff's
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Speaker 4: deputies and investigators were on their property for seven hours
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Speaker 4: looking for evidence related to a missing person's case. They
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Speaker 4: couldn't remember the name of the person they were looking for,
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Speaker 4: but they did remember the person was sixteen. Cynthia don
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Speaker 4: Kenny was sixteen when she vanished. The property owners added
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Speaker 4: that the Osh County Sheriff's Office came to the property
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Speaker 4: in March. At that time, search dogs were brought out,
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Speaker 4: but the property owners saying nothing was found. Alena Burrows
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Speaker 4: with CSI Crime Scene Confidential told KSNTV, quote, we have
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Speaker 4: received information that Dennis Rader has been on this property
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Speaker 4: at some point in time. The National BTK Task Force
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Speaker 4: is here to follow up on those leads.
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Speaker 2: Well, I'm telling you right now, if BTK Dennish Raider
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Speaker 2: the Dogcatcher has been strolling around rural Butler County, I
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Speaker 2: guarantee you it's connected to a case. With me an
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Speaker 2: all star panel to make sense of what we know
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Speaker 2: right now. But first to a member along with me
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Speaker 2: on the BTK Special Task for Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder,
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Speaker 2: Director Cold Case Research Institute, and host of a new
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Speaker 2: hit series Zone Seven. Cheryl, I know there's a lot
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Speaker 2: that you and I cannot discuss being on the task force,
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Speaker 2: but the homeowners have now come forward and stated the
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Speaker 2: Osage County and for law enforcement was on their property
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Speaker 2: looking for evidence as it relates to sixteen.
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Speaker 3: Year old Cynthia don Kenney. What do you make of it?
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Speaker 5: You and I can certainly confirm that. I mean, it
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Speaker 5: was on TV. And what's important is this information that
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Speaker 5: came forward from the landowner, the actual homeowner. It was
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Speaker 5: credible enough that scher Dierden felt like we need to
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Speaker 5: get out there and do our due diligence to find
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Speaker 5: out can we connect him with anything from that property,
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Speaker 5: And that's what we did.
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Speaker 2: I'll tell you one thing to doctor Peter Vronsky joining
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Speaker 2: us out of Toronto. You're a forensic historian, author of
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Speaker 2: multiple best selling books on serial killers, including American serial Killers,
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Speaker 2: The Epidemic Years and Sons of Cain, Doctor Vronsky, if
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Speaker 2: Dennis Raider I spotted walking around your rural property, you
4:03
Speaker 2: better call in the scent dogs FRONTO agree, disagree?
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Speaker 6: Oh?
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Speaker 7: I agree. It's absolutely possible and plausible. This is what
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Speaker 7: serial killers often do, and I'm sure there could be
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Speaker 7: plausibly lots of cases still out there that he kind
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Speaker 7: of has kept to himself as little tokens of control.
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Speaker 7: He maybe let go of a few, but there's some
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Speaker 7: he could be nurturing. And in fact, I'm in the
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Speaker 7: middle of something like this with a serial killer in
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Speaker 7: Long Island with cases going back to nineteen sixty eight
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Speaker 7: to nineteen seventy three, which we closed there last December.
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Speaker 7: So this is not unusual what is happening, and.
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Speaker 2: It's not unusual at all. Now, why would we connect
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Speaker 2: BTK with sixteen year old Cynthia don Kenney.
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Speaker 3: Listen?
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Speaker 4: The nineteen seventy six unsolved disappearance sixteen year old Cynthia
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Speaker 4: don Kenny, who was last seen working out a laundromat
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Speaker 4: and o Saj, Oklahoma, is back in the news. Dennis
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Speaker 4: Raider BTK confirmed that he was questioned by Oklahoma investigators
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Speaker 4: about the cold case because of the visits he made
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Speaker 4: to the area at the time of Kenny's disappearance. Raider,
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Speaker 4: who confessed in detail to other murders, denies any involvement
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Speaker 4: in this case. However, Osage County Sheriff Eddie Verdon has
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Speaker 4: read Raider's journals from cover to cover and believes the
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Speaker 4: killer left clues. One of Rader's journal entries around the
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Speaker 4: time of Kenney's disappearance was laundromats were a good place
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Speaker 4: to watch victims and dream. It was Sheriff Virden's Osage
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Speaker 4: County Sheriff's office that went out to the site of
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Speaker 4: the killer's former home and found pantyhose tied in a knot,
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Speaker 4: something raider would have used to strangle a victim.
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Speaker 3: It is just too much of a coincidence that he's
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Speaker 3: talking about.
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Speaker 2: Finding a murder victim, a female murder victim at a laundrymat,
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Speaker 2: and then Cynthia Kenny or a victim goes missing or
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Speaker 2: had been connected to a laundromat. Joining me right now
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Speaker 2: is Douglas McGregor. You know him well, geographic profiler who
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Speaker 2: specializes in serial killing and violent crime. You can find
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Speaker 2: him at the geo Profiler. Douglas McGregor, Thank you for
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Speaker 2: being with us. How do you think the connection holds
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Speaker 2: up in a court of law between the Butler County
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Speaker 2: this rural area search in Kansas to the Oklahoma serial
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Speaker 2: killing activity.
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Speaker 8: The investigators would have to find would have to do
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Speaker 8: a linkage analysis and see you.
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Speaker 3: Slow down, slow down, a linkage analysis.
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Speaker 8: What yeah, so they'd have to see if there's enough
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Speaker 8: common factors between the crimes there and the crimes that
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Speaker 8: he committed in the past, and obviously the laundromat is
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Speaker 8: is one promising lead. Dennis Raider Traditionally, his crimes that
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Speaker 8: he's been convicted for, he's a he's a home based
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Speaker 8: offender or a marauder, so he attacks from his home
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Speaker 8: and his activity space is surrounded is around his home area,
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Speaker 8: his residence. But these other crimes, they're outside of that area,
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Speaker 8: so they would have to find other than geography, they
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Speaker 8: would have to find other common linkages to link him
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Speaker 8: to those crimes.
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Speaker 3: Well, what about our cut five?
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Speaker 2: Listen to this members of the panel BTK talking about
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Speaker 2: might be something left in some old barn.
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Speaker 4: As Dennis Raider, the self proclaimed BTK serial killer, is
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Speaker 4: now the prime suspect in the Cynthia Kinney case, some
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Speaker 4: old information has become new again, such as the sheriff's
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Speaker 4: office received an anonymous call shortly after Kinney's disappearance. The
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Speaker 4: male caller said that she was located in an old barn.
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Speaker 4: There is no evidence that that lead was ever followed up,
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Speaker 4: but authorities are now looking at detailed drawings made by
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Speaker 4: Raider showing young girls tied and bound in barns. There
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Speaker 4: is also a conversation heard on one of Rader's prison
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Speaker 4: phone calls this past August. On the call he has
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Speaker 4: heard to say, quote, there might still be something in
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Speaker 4: some old barn too.
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Speaker 2: Frank fell Zone joining us out of California. Former San
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Speaker 2: Francisco Homicide Inspector, author of San Francisco Homicide Inspector five
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Speaker 2: Dash Henry Dash seven My inside story of the knight Stalker,
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Speaker 2: City Hall murders and zebra killings, Chinatown, game wars and
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Speaker 2: a city under siege.
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Speaker 3: Wow, you know your stuff? Fell Zone.
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Speaker 2: Question to you, Frank, when you are hearing this conversation
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Speaker 2: that Dennis Raider, the dog catching killer, is having. What
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Speaker 2: people still don't know their calls are being recorded behind bars.
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Speaker 6: Well, everything boils down to what your jurisdiction and the
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Speaker 6: prosecution needs to make a conviction. I always found that
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Speaker 6: your crime scene tells you a story, and that story
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Speaker 6: gets you going in the right direction, and then it's
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Speaker 6: just following the leads and each lead has to be
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Speaker 6: developed to its fullest. The night Stalker case in the
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Speaker 6: Bay Area that terrified the state of California. That case
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Speaker 6: was broke on a bracelet that was taken during one
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Speaker 6: of the Hot Proud burglaries in the residence of a doctor.
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Speaker 6: So you never know what little link is going to
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Speaker 6: break your case. But the serial murderers, the killers that
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Speaker 6: stalk people, they're out there and they're going to be
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Speaker 6: out there forever. And it seems like with the media
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Speaker 6: glorifying these individuals, there's going to be no end to
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Speaker 6: what's happening in our country.
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Speaker 2: I got an answer film. Serial killers are going to
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Speaker 2: keep on killing, whether they're found out or not found out,
10:01
Speaker 2: whether the publicized or not publicized. But you do speak
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Speaker 2: the truth, specifically as it relates to Dennis Raider BTK,
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Speaker 2: because he loves what he believes to be the adulation
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Speaker 2: of the media. What it really is.
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Speaker 3: Is discussed.
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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum.
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Speaker 2: The fact that he says behind bars, I know you
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Speaker 2: can talk about this because it's out there. This is
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Speaker 2: not part of what we're learning on the task Force.
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Speaker 2: He says in a phone call on a prison call,
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Speaker 2: and this is just a couple of months ago. He
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Speaker 2: says there might still be something in some old barn.
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Speaker 5: Owned the property in rural Butler County. There were several barns,
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Speaker 5: so again we had to do our due diligence in
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Speaker 5: search those and see if there was any connection that
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Speaker 5: we could make to.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns joining me now medical examiner joining us
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Speaker 2: out of Fort Worth Lecturer University, Texas and TCU Medical School.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns, while you're from the same town as BTK,
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Speaker 2: I hope you don't know each other. But that said,
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Speaker 2: if a body had been placed or a victim had
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Speaker 2: been placed in a barn so long ago, searching now,
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Speaker 2: it's highly unlikely that there would be any DNA evidence
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Speaker 2: or any evidence left of the victim unless something had
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Speaker 2: been buried, and he's known for burying trophies. But address
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Speaker 2: that if you could, doctor Crowns.
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Speaker 9: So yes, BPK and I are from the same hometown.
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Speaker 9: He was actually one of my dad's students at the university,
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Speaker 9: which Costa University. But if he left the body above ground,
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Speaker 9: now it's been out for decades, it would be desiccated
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Speaker 9: or dried up up and there really wouldn't be anything
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Speaker 9: that you could probably get from it for DNA. Now,
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Speaker 9: if it was buried, and it was buried deep, it
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Speaker 9: could have delayed the decomposition process, so there could be
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Speaker 9: still a tissue remaining muscle, dried muscle, or even bone
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Speaker 9: marrow that could be extracted from the bones to do
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Speaker 9: DNA testing from.
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Speaker 2: Even though sometimes as you well know, Cheryl McCollum, and
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Speaker 2: I'll throw this to Del Carson, high profile lawyer adjoining
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Speaker 2: side the Jacksonville jurisdiction but also FORMERPI agent and author
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Speaker 2: of Arrest Proof Yourself. You can find them at del
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Speaker 2: carsonlaw dot com. Deal thinking back to your days, is
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Speaker 2: a fed as an agent, Even when you know you're
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Speaker 2: not going to be able to find something, you still
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Speaker 2: have to look well.
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Speaker 7: Absolutely, and the advantage to a barn is that it's
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Speaker 7: kept out of the weather. The result is if there
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Speaker 7: is any processable material left, it's liable to be in
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Speaker 7: more or less of Christine State compared to being out
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Speaker 7: in the woods somewhere where it would be affected by
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Speaker 7: rain and so normal.
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Speaker 2: And there's the possibility, Cheryl McCollum, we know he high
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Speaker 2: squirrels things away, he buries them.
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Speaker 3: Would do you bury something out in one of these barns?
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Speaker 5: I don't know, absolutely, I mean he could have buried
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Speaker 5: a souvenir that he took from a scene. He talks
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Speaker 5: about that. We know that from serial killers throughout history,
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Speaker 5: they will take items and they want to secure them
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Speaker 5: for their own pleasure. So there's no doubt that something
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Speaker 5: that needs to be explored at every possible scene.
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Speaker 2: And there's the issue of pictures tied to another crime scene.
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Speaker 3: Take a listen our cuts seven in this.
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Speaker 4: Raider is also considered the prime suspect in the murder
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Speaker 4: of Shawna Beth Garber. The twenty two year old Garber
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Speaker 4: was found rape strangled and hogtied in Missouri on December
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Speaker 4: tecond nineteen ninety, but she was not identified until twenty
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Speaker 4: twenty one. Until then, she was known as Grace Doe.
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Speaker 4: When her body was identified, investigators found out that Shauna
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Speaker 4: Garber went missing from Topeka, Kansas, on November third, nineteen ninety.
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Speaker 4: Dennis Raider was named a prime suspect in her murder
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Speaker 4: when photos were found in one of his journals that
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Speaker 4: directly tie him to the crime scene.
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Speaker 2: To Cheryl McCollum, who is on the BTK Task Force
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Speaker 2: along with me, this is also information that has not
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Speaker 2: been kept confidential the photos found in his journal, Why
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Speaker 2: did those photos tie him to Shauna Garber?
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Speaker 5: The photographs again are going to be something that depicts
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Speaker 5: the location, and he puts himself there, So it's not
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Speaker 5: something that can be ignored. With the Garber case, he's
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Speaker 5: one of a few persons of interest that again they've
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Speaker 5: got to rule him in or rule him out. Can
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Speaker 5: they put him there on the dates that she went missing?
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Speaker 5: Is there anything that he has said in the past
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Speaker 5: that puts him with her or speaks to her? And
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Speaker 5: keep in mind a lot of these folks study one another.
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Speaker 5: Even recently with the Long Island serial killer, Dennis Raider
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Speaker 5: has come out and made statements about that situation. So
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Speaker 5: it's something he could have been writing about because he
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Speaker 5: was knowledgeable of it. I don't know that Garber is
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Speaker 5: one of his victims. I'm not completely bought in on that,
15:27
Speaker 5: but again you've got to look at it and really
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Speaker 5: ment or really.
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Speaker 2: Out well, I'm telling you, and I think that doctor
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Speaker 2: Joni Johnson will agree. Forensic psychologist Pi, author of Serial
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Speaker 2: Killers one hundred and one, questions true crime fans ask
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Speaker 2: there are going to be other BTK victims.
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Speaker 3: I have no question about that. Dr Johnson.
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Speaker 7: I I agree with you, Nancy.
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Speaker 10: I would be absolutely stinned to think that he has
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Speaker 10: only killed people he's confessed to, because this issue of
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Speaker 10: power and controlling, being able to play games with people,
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Speaker 10: and it's so complicated when we talk about sexually motivated
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Speaker 10: derial killer. So I completely agree with you. Whether the
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Speaker 10: task forces investigating are included or not, there's no question
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Speaker 10: he has other victims out there that he has not
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Speaker 10: confessed to.
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Speaker 2: And now we turn our attention to what many believe
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Speaker 2: is another serial killer. Take listen now are cut ten
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Speaker 2: from crimeonline dot Com.
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Speaker 4: The border city of Laredo, Texas, appeared to have a
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Speaker 4: possible serial killer on the loose. In a period of
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Speaker 4: twelve days, two sex workers have been picked up from
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Speaker 4: an area known to locals as the prostitution blocks on
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Speaker 4: San Bernardo Avenue in Laredo, taken out her remote areas
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Speaker 4: northwest of the city, and shaw in the head When
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Speaker 4: a special law enforcement team was put together to hunt
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Speaker 4: down a possible serial killer kidnapping and murdering sex workers,
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Speaker 4: David Ortiz, the intelligence supervisor for the Border Patrol, was
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Speaker 4: asked to join the team.
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Speaker 3: Wow.
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Speaker 2: David Ortiz asked to join the team. We believe the
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Speaker 2: first victim may have been Melissa Ramirez.
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Speaker 3: Take a listen.
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Speaker 4: On September fourth, when Melissa Ramirez didn't come home, her mother,
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Speaker 4: Christina Benevitez, went looking for her daughter on San Bernardo.
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Speaker 4: She came across forty two year old Claudine Ann Luerra,
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Speaker 4: one of Melissa Ramire's friends, on the street, and asked
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Speaker 4: her if she had seen Melissa. Lua hadn't. Ten days later,
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Speaker 4: on September thirteenth, friends would be looking for Claudine and
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Speaker 4: Luerra when she didn't come home. Twenty nine year old
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Speaker 4: Melissa Ramerez was on San Bernardo Boulevard on the prostitution
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Speaker 4: blocks when she sees a familiar white truck pull over
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Speaker 4: to talk. She knows the driver is David, a military man, tall, handsome.
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Speaker 4: They've done this before, so the mother of two gets
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Speaker 4: in the truck. As they drive down a rural country
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Speaker 4: road about two miles outside the city, David stops the
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Speaker 4: car from Melissa to get out and relieve herself. Without warning,
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Speaker 4: David shoots her in the head multiple times. Her body
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Speaker 4: is not discovered until the next day.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Peter Ronsky joining us out of Toronto, Doctor Ronsky,
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Speaker 2: what do you make of them? The modus operanda in
18:01
Speaker 2: this particular case.
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Speaker 7: This is a very interesting case, and it's almost like
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Speaker 7: a new species of serial killers who are emerging in
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Speaker 7: the prime of their career, like that colonel in Canada,
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Speaker 7: Colonel Russell Williams, who suddenly in his forties is becoming
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Speaker 7: transforming almost into a serial killer. There's nothing in his
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Speaker 7: background that would suggest that he is a budding serial killer,
18:28
Speaker 7: and yet he emerges with, you know, this kind of
18:33
Speaker 7: excellent record and past. There is some signs of trauma,
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Speaker 7: military issues, maybe PTSD, but none of these things really
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Speaker 7: are typical of a serial killer other than his kind
18:47
Speaker 7: of desire. Very much like Gary Ridgeway, the Green River killer,
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Speaker 7: to you know Ridge society of a stain in the community,
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Speaker 7: sex workers.
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Speaker 2: Wow at the same time employing sex workers. So we
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Speaker 2: know a little bit about victim one, but what about
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Speaker 2: victim two. Claudine Anne Listen.
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Speaker 4: At forty two years old. Claudine and Luera has experience
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Speaker 4: on the street. She's the mother of five and is
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Speaker 4: very careful with who she deals with on San Bernardo Boulevard.
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Speaker 4: Like all the girls on the prostitution blocks, the murder
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Speaker 4: of her friend Melissa Ramirez. The top of mind. Lua
19:24
Speaker 4: has heard the rumors. So when a guy she knows
19:27
Speaker 4: pulls over to pick her up, she gets in. She
19:29
Speaker 4: knows David, the military guy in the white truck. As
19:32
Speaker 4: they drive down the road, Luera confronts David about the
19:35
Speaker 4: disappearance of her friend. She was getting out of the
19:37
Speaker 4: truck when he shoots her in the head. Luia was
19:41
Speaker 4: found alive, but died hours later in the hospital.
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Speaker 2: Them the method of operation here rings of an echo,
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Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum. Sex workers being lured away from their homes
19:56
Speaker 2: or where they hang out. Here it was on the
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Speaker 2: prostitution blocks and taken out in a vehicle, having sex
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Speaker 2: with the killer, and then they shoot them in the head.
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Speaker 2: This is like a recurring chorus with serial killers, you know.
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Speaker 5: Gary Ridgeway said it. He said that he wants to
20:16
Speaker 5: deal with sex workers because they're not going to be
20:20
Speaker 5: reported right away, and oftentimes they're not reported missing at all,
20:27
Speaker 5: so it gives the killer time not just to get away,
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Speaker 5: but to maybe even go back and cover up and
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Speaker 5: cover up some more.
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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about something doctor Peter Vronsky just said about
20:37
Speaker 2: a let's just say late bloomer serial killer in Canada,
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Speaker 2: Del Carson with me, high profile defense lawyer and former
20:46
Speaker 2: fed with the FBI, Dell. The perps may not exhibit
20:52
Speaker 2: serial killer behavior.
20:55
Speaker 3: Like ken know.
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Speaker 2: We say, oh, it's textbook. They tortured animals when they
20:58
Speaker 2: were little. They tore the off of flies, They did this,
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Speaker 2: They did that. They have no empathy or sympathy for
21:05
Speaker 2: others feelings.
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Speaker 3: We knew it since he was a kid.
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Speaker 2: There are killers that do not exhibit symptoms, and they
21:13
Speaker 2: are as I just said, for lack of a better term,
21:16
Speaker 2: late bloomers.
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Speaker 7: Well, you know Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer, he.
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Speaker 3: Was a great from day one.
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Speaker 7: He was like a garter snake with cobra venom. And
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Speaker 7: I can just tell you that you can play with
21:28
Speaker 7: a snak like that a lot, and then if you
21:31
Speaker 7: fall into their ritual, their pattern of behavior, then all
21:35
Speaker 7: of a sudden you're in trouble. And those kids got
21:37
Speaker 7: in the car because they fell into the pattern of
21:40
Speaker 7: behavior that he exhibited. And that's two of all these
21:44
Speaker 7: serial killers. You know, murders are not that unusual in
21:47
Speaker 7: our world. What is unusual is the motivation in each
21:51
Speaker 7: of these serial killers deviates from any kind of normal
21:55
Speaker 7: murder where there's money, sex, you know, all of those
21:59
Speaker 7: kinds of reasons for killing someone else. They don't necessarily
22:03
Speaker 7: exist in the serial killers world, and that's what makes
22:06
Speaker 7: them so dangerous. They look harmless, gentlely, and certainly Wayne
22:10
Speaker 7: Williams did. He looked arm man.
22:12
Speaker 2: He really did his parents and babied him and coddled
22:18
Speaker 2: him and his whole life since birth, and then out
22:24
Speaker 2: of the blue we find out he's a serial killer,
22:27
Speaker 2: and I mean a massive serial killer. Doctor Joni Johnson,
22:30
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about something Dell Carson just said. As
22:33
Speaker 2: far as motive for serial killers, I always think of
22:36
Speaker 2: them as being like sharks. This is shark mean to
22:40
Speaker 2: eat everything in its path, including iniate objects. No, it's
22:45
Speaker 2: an instinct. I don't know that serial killers really have
22:48
Speaker 2: a motivation.
22:49
Speaker 10: Well, I think it's complicated. I mean, obviously serial killers
22:52
Speaker 10: we think of actually motivated serial killers oftentimes because those
22:55
Speaker 10: are the ones that get most of the media attention.
22:58
Speaker 10: But I think there are suri killers too, you know,
23:01
Speaker 10: espouse certain motives and whether these are motives or rationalizations.
23:05
Speaker 10: I think, as for example, in this Ortez case, he
23:09
Speaker 10: has used prostitute, as you pointed out, and then yet
23:12
Speaker 10: he says part of his motive is rinting the streets
23:16
Speaker 10: of this quote.
23:16
Speaker 3: Film after he has sex with them, exactly.
23:19
Speaker 10: I mean, it makes no sense whatsoever, so that I
23:21
Speaker 10: think boils out of your question is is this really
23:24
Speaker 10: a motive or is this an excuse of rationalization?
23:26
Speaker 3: And not that I care about in the motive.
23:28
Speaker 7: This is the Carson. I just tell you. You know,
23:30
Speaker 7: what we've got to begin to do is read the
23:33
Speaker 7: actions and not the words of these perfect readers. What
23:37
Speaker 7: they say often has no relevance whatsoever to what's driving
23:42
Speaker 7: them and what's causing them to behave and are socially
23:46
Speaker 7: like this.
23:46
Speaker 2: You're right, Dell Carson. Of course, stay doesn't have to
23:49
Speaker 2: prove motive. It's nice to be able to give it
23:51
Speaker 2: to a jury because they wonder why, but you don't
23:55
Speaker 2: have to prove that. That's not an element that must
23:58
Speaker 2: be proven in a court of law. Speaking of the
24:01
Speaker 2: last two victims we finished off with Claudine and Luerra,
24:04
Speaker 2: Well that's not the end of it.
24:06
Speaker 3: Listen.
24:06
Speaker 4: On the night of September fourteenth, Ericapania was picked up
24:09
Speaker 4: by a man she didn't know in a white truck.
24:12
Speaker 4: As a working girl, Paya became concerned with some of
24:15
Speaker 4: the things the man was saying. Pena says the man
24:17
Speaker 4: talked about Melissa Ramirez, sex worker who was murdered and
24:20
Speaker 4: her body found on the outskirts of Laredo the previous week.
24:23
Speaker 4: The man told Penia he was the next to last
24:26
Speaker 4: person to have sex with Ramirez, and he told her
24:28
Speaker 4: he was worried investigators would find his DNA on the body.
24:31
Speaker 4: At thirty one, Erica Pana was old enough to believe
24:34
Speaker 4: he wasn't kidding and might actually be the person murdering
24:37
Speaker 4: prostitutes in the area. When they stop at a gas station,
24:41
Speaker 4: Paya sees a state trooper pumping gas. As the man
24:43
Speaker 4: points a gun at her, eric Opania makes a run
24:46
Speaker 4: for her life. She makes it to the trooper in time,
24:48
Speaker 4: but the man in the white truck flees.
24:50
Speaker 2: Let's take a listen to her description of that man
24:52
Speaker 2: in our cut sixteen.
24:53
Speaker 4: With Ericapana's description of the man, the make and model
24:56
Speaker 4: of the truck, authorities were able to identify Border Patrol
24:59
Speaker 4: Agent one David Ortiz as their suspect. As authorities mobilized
25:03
Speaker 4: to look for one David Ortiz. They couldn't find him
25:06
Speaker 4: after paying his escape for Martes. Officers only knew of
25:09
Speaker 4: victims Melissa Ramirez and Claudine Duerra, but while they were
25:12
Speaker 4: chasing after him, they heard about a third body that
25:15
Speaker 4: had been found, later identified as thirty five year old
25:18
Speaker 4: Gizelda Elisa Hernandez kN too. Believing Ortiz will return to
25:22
Speaker 4: the home he shares with his wife and children, authorities
25:24
Speaker 4: head to his home, hoping to avoid an armed confrontation.
25:27
Speaker 2: You know what's interesting, and I'm going to go back
25:29
Speaker 2: to another serial killer, Rex Heureman, who's going to face
25:33
Speaker 2: trial in the Long Island serial killer case. Cheryl McCollum.
25:37
Speaker 2: I recently interviewed a sex worker who went out to
25:42
Speaker 2: dinner with Rex Hureman, and she got so freaked out
25:46
Speaker 2: by him she didn't keep the date. I'm using that ephemistically.
25:51
Speaker 2: She said that he kept talking about the Long Island
25:56
Speaker 2: serial killing victims, like how it would be easy for
26:00
Speaker 2: someone to put them in canvas bags and wear camo
26:04
Speaker 2: and drag them out into the brush along Gilgo Beach.
26:07
Speaker 2: He relived it, telling her about it, just like this guy,
26:12
Speaker 2: the Border patrol agent talking about the other victims to
26:17
Speaker 2: a potential victim.
26:19
Speaker 5: Absolutely, he has got the best job. It is perfect
26:23
Speaker 5: for a cover to gain intel and also to have
26:27
Speaker 5: the ability to commit these crimes. Nancy. He can pull
26:30
Speaker 5: these women over, He can stop and interview or interrogate them.
26:33
Speaker 5: He can pack them down. He can even quote arrest
26:37
Speaker 5: them and then let them go and then they have
26:40
Speaker 5: a need to give him some type of favor. He
26:42
Speaker 5: can also use them as confidential informants. He was set
26:46
Speaker 5: up beautifully, and then when he was added to the
26:49
Speaker 5: task force, then he got information before anybody else would
26:53
Speaker 5: have it to say, Hey, if my DNA's there, I'm
26:56
Speaker 5: going to come up with a reason that it was. Yeah,
26:58
Speaker 5: I had sex with her, that I was not the
27:01
Speaker 5: last person with her.
27:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, you hear him in all of his excuses.
27:04
Speaker 7: Nancy, Peter Brodsky here, good jump in. Yeah. I wanted
27:08
Speaker 7: to say that it's not unusual in these kinds of
27:11
Speaker 7: cases with sex worker victims that the perpetrator was acquainted
27:16
Speaker 7: with the victim, and that might have been a past
27:19
Speaker 7: customer or had met them, hung out with them in
27:23
Speaker 7: the doughnuts store when they're working their track. He knows them,
27:29
Speaker 7: he's almost their friend. And then they end up dead,
27:32
Speaker 7: maybe even a year later into a relationship. This is
27:36
Speaker 7: not unusual. They don't necessarily strike the first time in
27:40
Speaker 7: an unknown victim who's a sex worker. This is part
27:44
Speaker 7: of that psychopathology.
27:46
Speaker 2: That's making a lot of sense and following up on
27:48
Speaker 2: what we just heard and what Cheryl McCollum was telling us.
27:53
Speaker 3: Take listen how.
27:54
Speaker 2: Sneaky and deli as Ortiz is take us an hour
27:58
Speaker 2: twenty two during.
27:59
Speaker 4: The truck, the district Attorney Ellenise said Ortiz knew exactly
28:03
Speaker 4: what he was doing as he plotted out the killings.
28:05
Speaker 4: Fellow investigators were trying to hunt down the killer and
28:08
Speaker 4: called the South Texas Border Intelligence Center asking for help
28:11
Speaker 4: finding a veteran sex worker, Claudine Luera. She worked Sam
28:14
Speaker 4: Bernardo and told others she had an idea about who
28:17
Speaker 4: was behind the killing of Melissa Ramirez. The next day,
28:21
Speaker 4: Lua was murdered. Alanse asked the jury. Did Ortiz, who
28:25
Speaker 4: was on duty that day, hear about the call asking
28:28
Speaker 4: about Luera? Did he hunt her down and kill her
28:31
Speaker 4: before she got a chance to talk and identify Ortise
28:34
Speaker 4: or was it a coincidence that she died the next day?
28:37
Speaker 2: There is no coincidence in criminal law. She calls in
28:42
Speaker 2: and says, hey, I think I know who did it.
28:44
Speaker 2: He can be the recipient of that information. And the
28:47
Speaker 2: next day she's dead. Well, it's not a mystery anymore.
28:52
Speaker 2: Listen to this our cut twenty.
28:54
Speaker 4: Jan David Ortiz confessed to killing the four sex workers
28:58
Speaker 4: during a lengthy interview with v instigators. Ortiz told the
29:01
Speaker 4: investigators he had been a customer of most of the women,
29:04
Speaker 4: but he also expressed disdain for sex workers, referring to
29:08
Speaker 4: them as trash and so dirty and insisting he wanted
29:11
Speaker 4: to clean up the streets. He even said quote the
29:15
Speaker 4: monster would come out unquote as he drove along a
29:18
Speaker 4: stretch of street in Laredo, franqueted by women. Investigators have
29:22
Speaker 4: not ruled out the possibility that our teas had additional victims.
29:26
Speaker 2: Oh, I believe there will be additional victims uncovered.
29:42
Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace.
29:46
Speaker 2: Guys, we are going from BTK to a Border Patrol
29:53
Speaker 2: agent now convinct that as a serial killer to Oregon.
29:58
Speaker 2: You all remember in women's dead bodies were popping up
30:02
Speaker 2: in a law enforcement kept saying they're not connected, They're
30:04
Speaker 2: not connected.
30:05
Speaker 3: They are connected.
30:07
Speaker 4: Listen to this In Oregon, a month after police suggested
30:10
Speaker 4: the mysterious deaths of six women were not connected, officials
30:14
Speaker 4: changed their announcement and said they believe at least four
30:17
Speaker 4: of the killings are connected, Kristin Smith, Bridgiet Webster, Charity Perry,
30:22
Speaker 4: and Ashley Real. The victims' bodies were all found in
30:25
Speaker 4: wooded and rural areas between February and May. Nine agencies
30:30
Speaker 4: took part in the investigation, leading them to a person
30:34
Speaker 4: of interest, but officials have not announced the name of
30:37
Speaker 4: the person or how they determine the deaths they're connected.
30:40
Speaker 2: Guys, is a serial killer stalking Oregon? Joining me of
30:45
Speaker 2: course our all star panel, but two Doctor Peter Vronsky,
30:50
Speaker 2: what do you make of it?
30:52
Speaker 7: It's entirely possible. But it's becoming more difficult for us
30:56
Speaker 7: to make these kinds of connections we used to be
31:00
Speaker 7: because we no longer rely on criminal profiling as the
31:04
Speaker 7: science we thought it was, and so now geo forensic
31:10
Speaker 7: profiling is a little bit more reliable. We're seeing too
31:13
Speaker 7: many gaps in past psychological profiling, which is really a
31:18
Speaker 7: combination of an art and a science. It depends on
31:22
Speaker 7: how talented the particular profiler is and so what seems
31:27
Speaker 7: obvious to many of us in the past is not
31:30
Speaker 7: as obvious now. And we're focused more on collecting DNA
31:34
Speaker 7: scientific evidence to link cases, and so we're now hesitant
31:40
Speaker 7: just because And by the way, we don't profile on
31:42
Speaker 7: the basis of modus operandi, but on the basis of signature.
31:46
Speaker 7: And we're you know, we already have established that modus
31:49
Speaker 7: operandi changes with a serial perpetrator depending on the circumstance,
31:54
Speaker 7: but the signature remains static. And we're now learning with
31:58
Speaker 7: years that even the signature can alter. So I understand
32:04
Speaker 7: why nobody's rushing in to make these connections until they
32:08
Speaker 7: have the evidence for it. Man say, that's called ritualization.
32:12
Speaker 3: Go ahead, Del Carson, That's called ritualization.
32:15
Speaker 7: And what we see is that in serial killers, over time,
32:19
Speaker 7: their behavior becomes more internally complex. And that's what I
32:23
Speaker 7: meant by falling into the pattern. Once you fall into
32:27
Speaker 7: the pattern, and you're wearing a red dress and you've
32:30
Speaker 7: got high heels on, you're falling into a pattern. You
32:33
Speaker 7: don't know you're falling into a pattern, but you do.
32:36
Speaker 7: And as the the individual who is the perpetrator becomes
32:42
Speaker 7: more longly involved in the behavior, it just gets internally
32:46
Speaker 7: more complex and they have to have any number of
32:48
Speaker 7: factors present in order to get their satisfaction from the event. Yes, exactly.
32:53
Speaker 7: And the more you incidents you have to analyze, the
32:56
Speaker 7: more you can focus that. So it's very difficult with
33:00
Speaker 7: four cases to yet find that, especially if they're in
33:04
Speaker 7: a short period, to make that clear connection that you
33:08
Speaker 7: would announce to the public you've got a serial killer
33:10
Speaker 7: out there.
33:11
Speaker 2: What about the fact that the name emerges of Jesse
33:16
Speaker 2: Calhoun and that the girlfriend of Jesse Calhoun is who
33:23
Speaker 2: is linked to these four deaths, says he knew at
33:28
Speaker 2: least two of the victims straight out to Cheryl McCollum,
33:35
Speaker 2: director of the Cold Case Research Institute and for expert,
33:39
Speaker 2: the girlfriend in this case, the girlfriend of thirty eight
33:43
Speaker 2: year old person that is a suspect in four of
33:46
Speaker 2: these cases, says he knew two of them. Wow, again,
33:52
Speaker 2: that's quite the coincidence, isn't it, Cheryl?
33:53
Speaker 5: Surely is. And you say it all the time, Nancy.
33:56
Speaker 5: If you want to know about a horse, look at
33:58
Speaker 5: his track record, run this guy's history and you start
34:02
Speaker 5: to see there's a faults as far back as two
34:04
Speaker 5: thousand and three. He assaults again in two thousand and
34:08
Speaker 5: seven with a kidnapping and then in twenty nineteen the
34:13
Speaker 5: assault of a police officer. That is sixteen years of
34:17
Speaker 5: violence against people. So you have to take this guy
34:21
Speaker 5: into account and his connection with those two bos Well, not.
34:24
Speaker 2: Only does he have a violent past and he's connected
34:28
Speaker 2: to the victims. He actually got clemency from the governor
34:34
Speaker 2: at twenty twenty one, and as soon as he's out
34:37
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, the killings commands Ashley Real, Bridget Webster,
34:43
Speaker 2: Charity Perry, and Kristin Smith, they're all dead.
34:46
Speaker 3: Have you looked at them?
34:48
Speaker 2: They're physically similar to doctor Kendall Crowns joining me chief
34:53
Speaker 2: medical Examiner out of Terrant County, Lecturer University Texas Austin
34:58
Speaker 2: and TCU Medical School, Dodgor Kendall Crowns. We've seen it
35:02
Speaker 2: over and over and over. I don't know how many
35:05
Speaker 2: thousands of autopsies you've conducted, but when you're dealing with
35:08
Speaker 2: a serial killer, I mean Ted Bundy, many of his
35:12
Speaker 2: victims look so similar. White females, very slight in their
35:18
Speaker 2: physical characteristics, dark hair parted down the middle. They all
35:24
Speaker 2: look very similar, as do these women. Have you seen
35:29
Speaker 2: that in your practice, doctor Kendall Crowns.
35:32
Speaker 3: Yeah.
35:33
Speaker 9: Occasionally, when dealing with cases of a similar murderer, they
35:38
Speaker 9: will choose a specific target on a routine basis. Whatever
35:43
Speaker 9: it is psychologically that drives them seems to a target
35:48
Speaker 9: a specific one. So you will see with serial killers
35:51
Speaker 9: multiple victims with similar characteristics killed in a similar manner.
35:55
Speaker 2: Following up on what Cheryl McCollum just said, take a
35:57
Speaker 2: listener cut twenty six from Crime Online.
36:00
Speaker 4: Investigators said the deaths of Kristen Smith, Charity Perry, Bridget Webster,
36:04
Speaker 4: and actually Real r link together, and sources say a
36:07
Speaker 4: person of interest is already off the streets. The person
36:10
Speaker 4: of interest, thirty eight year old Jesse Lee Calhoun, is
36:13
Speaker 4: currently booked in the Snake River Correctional Institution. The Molnomah
36:17
Speaker 4: County Sheriff's Office has described Calhoun as a prolific thief
36:21
Speaker 4: and career criminal. He was serving a sentence on burglary
36:24
Speaker 4: when he was among the inmates granted clemency by former
36:27
Speaker 4: Oregon Governor Kate Brown in twenty twenty one. This was
36:31
Speaker 4: for fighting the twenty twenty wildfires. The clemency shaved about
36:34
Speaker 4: twelve months off his prison sentence. That sentence was set
36:37
Speaker 4: to end in July twenty twenty two, and.
36:39
Speaker 2: Of course the bodies start piling up. But we know
36:44
Speaker 2: more about his background. Take a listen to thirty.
36:47
Speaker 4: Jesse Lee Calhoun is experienced in the ways of the
36:49
Speaker 4: Department of Corrections. In twenty nineteen, Calhoun was charged with
36:53
Speaker 4: three counts of unauthorized use of a vehicle, one count
36:56
Speaker 4: of assaulting a public safety officer, one count of first
36:58
Speaker 4: degree burglary. Givens from the incident show that when SWAT
37:02
Speaker 4: arrived at Calhoun's house to arrest him on outstanding warrants
37:05
Speaker 4: in defiance, he choked the CA nine and repeatedly kicked
37:09
Speaker 4: an officer. His original projected release date was in June
37:12
Speaker 4: twenty twenty two. However, in twenty twenty one, then Governor
37:15
Speaker 4: Kate Brown signed a commutation order providing clemency to certain
37:19
Speaker 4: prisoners who met the criteria. Calhoun was one of those
37:22
Speaker 4: prisoners and was released on July twenty second, twenty twenty one.
37:25
Speaker 2: Clares are now emerging about how poorly Calhoun was actually
37:29
Speaker 2: monitored by LA law enforcement. One of the women Calhoun
37:35
Speaker 2: is suspected of murdering actually real actually had filed a
37:40
Speaker 2: domestic violence complaint against him.
37:44
Speaker 3: For guess what strangulation.
37:49
Speaker 2: To you, Cheryl McCollum, The same mo we believe was
37:53
Speaker 2: used in killing the others.
37:55
Speaker 5: Patterns, patterns, patterns. You cannot ignore them. They won't get
37:59
Speaker 5: rid of They're going to continue to use what they
38:03
Speaker 5: get gratification from the way they want to do it.
38:07
Speaker 5: This is so clear once you start breaking down all
38:10
Speaker 5: of these elements.
38:11
Speaker 6: What about it, Frank fell Zone, Well, what I have learned, Nancy,
38:14
Speaker 6: is we all, I mean all have a dark side.
38:19
Speaker 6: Most of us don't want to know about it. And
38:22
Speaker 6: with these killers, what happens is whether it's drugs, sex,
38:28
Speaker 6: whatever motivates them to open up their dark side and
38:32
Speaker 6: start living it out. The human mind was always a
38:37
Speaker 6: fascination to me, particularly with serial killers. These people get very,
38:42
Speaker 6: very dark. Their egos are huge. They know they've gotten
38:47
Speaker 6: away with it once and it becomes a lot easier
38:50
Speaker 6: this second time, the third time, and now they're playing
38:53
Speaker 6: a game. Can they get caught again? I'll go back
38:57
Speaker 6: to Richard Ramiris. He made a deal with the devil,
39:01
Speaker 6: and the devil was with him. As his savior and
39:04
Speaker 6: the devil would protect him from law enforcement. It was
39:08
Speaker 6: an extremely interesting case for more reasons than one. Fascinating
39:13
Speaker 6: case for a study on serial killers.
39:16
Speaker 2: Douglas McGregor a joining me geographic profile or you can
39:20
Speaker 2: find him at the geo profile or what do you
39:23
Speaker 2: make of this case as it relates to your specialty.
39:27
Speaker 8: I think Jesse Calhoun is a strong person of interest
39:32
Speaker 8: just looking at the where the where the four women
39:36
Speaker 8: were found. You know, he lives within eighteen miles of
39:39
Speaker 8: three of them, sixty miles to the other one. Just
39:42
Speaker 8: statistically speaking, you know, most offenders Gary Ridgeway, Ted Bundy
39:48
Speaker 8: included in that area, you know, they dispose of bodies,
39:52
Speaker 8: you know, within thirty miles of their residence. Very few
39:55
Speaker 8: offenders go past that so unless they are personally connected
39:59
Speaker 8: to the victim. So it does make a strong argument
40:04
Speaker 8: for Jesse Calhoun just in the proximity and the distance
40:08
Speaker 8: from his house. Also, just you know, the bodies is
40:11
Speaker 8: a common traits, you know, common victimology. They're found in
40:15
Speaker 8: wooded areas, they founded found along roads. You know, most
40:19
Speaker 8: bodies are disposed of along roadways. After that, you got
40:22
Speaker 8: you got wooded areas and uh and water. So there
40:27
Speaker 8: is a there's a strong argument for for Calhoun, and
40:31
Speaker 8: as Cheryl mentioned, just his you know, his past record,
40:34
Speaker 8: his past behaviors. So that's uh, it's it's a it's
40:40
Speaker 8: a good argument and I think he's a good strong
40:43
Speaker 8: person of interests at attending.
40:44
Speaker 2: Well, this guy, jesse Lee Calhoun, is headed to court.
40:47
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfalls.
40:50
Speaker 9: Good life.
40:51
Speaker 7: Frien