Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / The Ice Cream Killer - Estibaliz Carranza

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The Ice Cream Killer - Estibaliz Carranza · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

0:07
Speaker 1: For years, she was known as the friendly owner of
0:09
Speaker 1: a neighborhood ice cream shop in Vienna, Austria. She had
0:14
Speaker 1: built a successful business, was building her life, hoping for
0:17
Speaker 1: a family, and gave those around her no reason to
0:21
Speaker 1: suspect anything was wrong. However, not all was perfect in
0:26
Speaker 1: her life, and the relationships she had were never what
0:29
Speaker 1: she hoped for, so ultimately her partners became disposable as
0:34
Speaker 1: she killed them in order to move on to the next.
0:38
Speaker 1: This would ultimately turn her quaint ice cream shop into
0:42
Speaker 1: a place of horrors, as her victims would be dismembered
0:45
Speaker 1: and laid to rest beneath the very floorboards where her
0:49
Speaker 1: customers walked each day. This is the story of Austria's
0:54
Speaker 1: most extraordinary murder case. This is the story of the
0:59
Speaker 1: ice cream career.
1:02
Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
1:05
Speaker 2: and Grim, a true crime podcast.
1:09
Speaker 1: Warning the following material in more material audience listener discretion.
1:38
Speaker 1: I went through some things during that introduction.
1:40
Speaker 2: Some things, some things like like I liked her, I
1:45
Speaker 2: wanted ice cream, and then I didn't like her, and
1:48
Speaker 2: I don't want ice cream.
1:50
Speaker 1: That's a fair roller coaster. It was it was quite
1:53
Speaker 1: an intro for my brain tonight. It was a little
1:56
Speaker 1: bit of a different intro. I gave away a little
1:58
Speaker 1: bit more of the story than usual. I try and
2:00
Speaker 1: leave it a bit more ambiguous, but this one, it's
2:03
Speaker 1: pretty straightforward, this story. I mean, there's some interesting stuff
2:07
Speaker 1: that you won't see coming that happens in it. But
2:09
Speaker 1: I digress. It's a pretty straightforward story. And I'll be honest,
2:13
Speaker 1: don't do this very often. I'm following the killer's story today. Okay,
2:19
Speaker 1: So yeah, we're going through through their perspective, their eyes.
2:23
Speaker 2: And what happens, which is definitely interesting, isn't it. So
2:28
Speaker 2: the intro's different, the story's going to be different. We're
2:30
Speaker 2: just in for a real treat.
2:32
Speaker 1: You considering ice cream, Maybe you're in for a treat.
2:36
Speaker 2: We're all probably still I'll probably still want ice cream
2:39
Speaker 2: after this. I want ice cream literally ninety nine percent
2:43
Speaker 2: of the day.
2:43
Speaker 1: You are an ice cream aholic? Yeah, you and our
2:46
Speaker 1: dog Ripley. Ripley loves ice cream.
2:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's just as obsessed with me. You can see
2:51
Speaker 2: it in her eyes.
2:52
Speaker 1: Oh she almost goes a cross eyed looking at it,
2:55
Speaker 1: and her eyes get so wide. It makes sense because
2:57
Speaker 1: she's a husky.
2:58
Speaker 2: So we recently they were boarded when we were on
3:01
Speaker 2: a trip and they did an ice cream photo shoot
3:04
Speaker 2: where they each got like a pretty much like a
3:06
Speaker 2: full cone of ice cream. Yeah, it was a lot,
3:08
Speaker 2: and I think she probably lived her best life that day.
3:11
Speaker 1: Definitely, she's obsessed, so were you. But should we just
3:15
Speaker 1: get into the story or should we talk more about
3:16
Speaker 1: ice cream? What do you want to do? I'm ready.
3:20
Speaker 1: I'm not favorite flavor go oh fired off for me?
3:24
Speaker 1: Anything caramel, like a salted caramel fuck. Yeah, see I
3:28
Speaker 1: do like that too.
3:30
Speaker 2: But if there is like a raspberry cheesecake of sorts
3:34
Speaker 2: on the list, lately, I've been gravitating to that.
3:36
Speaker 1: Gotcha.
3:37
Speaker 2: It used to be cotton candy, but I think I've
3:40
Speaker 2: aged out of cotton candy for some reason.
3:42
Speaker 1: I don't know why. Very sweet. Okay, now that we
3:45
Speaker 1: have our favorite flavors out there, let's get into the story.
3:48
Speaker 1: Let's do it. On September sixth, nineteen seventy eight, Gooyd
3:52
Speaker 1: Sergi Estabalize Carizana Zappala was born in Mexico City, which
3:59
Speaker 1: is definitely for someone like me who doesn't speak Spanish,
4:02
Speaker 1: but thankfully for me, her friends and family simply called
4:05
Speaker 1: her Est. Este's father worked as a journalist and a writer.
4:10
Speaker 1: He was publishing material that was reportedly critical for the
4:13
Speaker 1: Mexican government. Now, according to several accounts, those writings eventually
4:17
Speaker 1: brought some unwonted attention to the family. Est even later
4:21
Speaker 1: described a frightening incident from her early childhood in which
4:25
Speaker 1: armed men entered their family home looking for her father. Now,
4:28
Speaker 1: whether every detail of that memory can still be verified
4:31
Speaker 1: decades later is difficult to establish, but the event was
4:35
Speaker 1: remembered within the family as one of the reasons they
4:37
Speaker 1: ultimately decided to leave Mexico behind. That move took them
4:42
Speaker 1: across the Atlantic Ocean as they headed for Barcelona, Spain.
4:46
Speaker 1: Est was still very young when the family arrived there,
4:49
Speaker 1: and the transition was unfortunately far from easy. Starting over
4:53
Speaker 1: in a new country meant leaving behind careers, financial security,
4:57
Speaker 1: and the familiarity of home. Money quickly became tight for
5:00
Speaker 1: the family, and, like many immigrants trying to rebuild their
5:03
Speaker 1: lives everyday, survival often took priority over everything else. Now.
5:09
Speaker 1: By most accounts, est was an intelligent child who performed
5:13
Speaker 1: rather well in school too. She adapted to life in Spain,
5:17
Speaker 1: made friends and eventually became fluent in several languages. At home. However,
5:22
Speaker 1: family life it was a little more complicated. Years later,
5:27
Speaker 1: Esti described her father as being strict, demanding, and even
5:31
Speaker 1: emotionally distant. She claimed she constantly searched for his approval
5:35
Speaker 1: but rarely felt she earned it. As she grew older,
5:39
Speaker 1: Esti developed a very clear picture of the future that
5:41
Speaker 1: she wanted. She hoped to marry, have children, and build
5:44
Speaker 1: a stable family of her own. Friends later described her
5:48
Speaker 1: as someone who liked structure and long term plans. She
5:52
Speaker 1: worked hard in school and was determined to create opportunities
5:55
Speaker 1: that had been difficult for her family to find after
5:57
Speaker 1: leaving Mexico. While she was still young, she began experiencing
6:03
Speaker 1: violent fantasies. See, there were these thoughts that she had
6:07
Speaker 1: that were directed towards her father. During childhood, she thought
6:11
Speaker 1: about him dying or even about her killing him. Now,
6:16
Speaker 1: these thoughts seemed to stem from the intimidation she felt
6:20
Speaker 1: from her father, the coldness of their relationship, and the
6:22
Speaker 1: strictness It seemed to result in her wanting to lash
6:25
Speaker 1: out at him in these violent ways. Now, there is
6:28
Speaker 1: no evidence that she ever acted on Thozo, Nor did
6:31
Speaker 1: anyone around her appear to know that she was having
6:33
Speaker 1: these violent thoughts or fantasies. They simply remained private only
6:37
Speaker 1: for her. Now, after finishing school, Estie enrolled at the
6:41
Speaker 1: University of Barcelona, where she studied economics, and their university
6:46
Speaker 1: introduced her to a wider social circle, and before long
6:50
Speaker 1: she entered a serious relationship with a young man that
6:53
Speaker 1: lasted several years. For Esti, the relationship represented much more
6:58
Speaker 1: than simply having a boyfriend. She had spent years imagining
7:02
Speaker 1: marriage and children, and she believed that she had finally
7:06
Speaker 1: found someone who she could build that future with. As
7:10
Speaker 1: the years passed, however, it became increasingly clear that the
7:13
Speaker 1: two didn't share that same timeline. See Esti wanted to
7:17
Speaker 1: settle down, but her boyfriend wasn't ready for marriage or
7:20
Speaker 1: starting a family yet, so eventually their relationship came to
7:24
Speaker 1: an end. Now, the breakup affected her deeply, and after
7:28
Speaker 1: the relationship, due to the anger and emotions welling up
7:31
Speaker 1: inside her, well, those dark thoughts came back. See she
7:36
Speaker 1: briefly thought about sabotaging her ex boyfriend's car by cutting
7:40
Speaker 1: the brake lines.
7:42
Speaker 2: Oh okay, for a sec there. I was like, well,
7:45
Speaker 2: isn't there a song about this? That's not that bad?
7:48
Speaker 2: But that would put him like in physical danger, so
7:52
Speaker 2: that's pretty bad.
7:53
Speaker 1: Yeah. So she never acted on those thoughts and impulses
7:56
Speaker 1: at all though, But that period was the first time
7:59
Speaker 1: that she actually consciously recognized these violent ideas that she
8:03
Speaker 1: was carrying inside her. Now she made a decision and
8:08
Speaker 1: rather than staying in Barcelona at this time with these
8:12
Speaker 1: dark thoughts and this ex boyfriend there and all these
8:14
Speaker 1: memories and whatever, she decided that she wanted to have
8:18
Speaker 1: a fresh start, so she left Spain and moved to Germany.
8:22
Speaker 1: There she found work as an O pair caring for children. Now,
8:26
Speaker 1: an O pair is kind of like a nanny, but
8:29
Speaker 1: it's more of an exchange sort of situation where they
8:32
Speaker 1: live in with the family and joining society in a
8:34
Speaker 1: new new country, new culture sort of thing. You get
8:37
Speaker 1: a home in exchange for a bit of nanny work.
8:39
Speaker 2: Basically, Okay, well, see this seems very healthy. She kind
8:43
Speaker 2: of realized she needed a fresh start, so this is
8:45
Speaker 2: good exactly now.
8:47
Speaker 1: The job provided steady employment for her, and it was
8:50
Speaker 1: also an opportunity to improve her German While she began
8:53
Speaker 1: to build that new life she was aiming for. After
8:56
Speaker 1: finishing her work as an o pair, she found employment
9:00
Speaker 1: in the ice cream industry. Then it proved to be
9:02
Speaker 1: a relatively good fit. She enjoyed the work with working
9:05
Speaker 1: with customers and learned the day to day operations of
9:08
Speaker 1: the business. She even gained experience with equipment suppliers and
9:12
Speaker 1: the routines required to keep a successful shop running now.
9:16
Speaker 1: The work also introduced her to people throughout the industry,
9:19
Speaker 1: including refrigeration technicians and equipment sales representatives who regularly visited
9:24
Speaker 1: local businesses. One of those individuals was a German Man
9:28
Speaker 1: named Holger hols Now. He worked with commercial refrigeration equipment,
9:33
Speaker 1: and their conversations gradually became more frequent. With their interactions,
9:38
Speaker 1: the two soon began actually spending time together outside of work,
9:41
Speaker 1: and before long they were dating. Forest it seemed as
9:45
Speaker 1: though the new chapter in her life was flourishing. She
9:49
Speaker 1: left Spain in search of a fresh start. She found
9:51
Speaker 1: steady work in Germany and entered a relationship with someone
9:54
Speaker 1: who shared her interests in the same industry. For the
9:57
Speaker 1: first time in years, the future she imagined as a
10:00
Speaker 1: young girl appeared to be taking shape. In front of
10:03
Speaker 1: her and este and Holger while they had discovered they
10:06
Speaker 1: shared many of the same ambitions. They both enjoyed the
10:09
Speaker 1: ice cream industry, They both hoped to one day run
10:12
Speaker 1: a business of their own, and they both talked openly
10:15
Speaker 1: about building a future. It was in two thousand and
10:18
Speaker 1: two when the two of them settled into marriage and
10:23
Speaker 1: as life as husband and wife, taking those first real
10:26
Speaker 1: steps towards their future plans together. The first years of
10:31
Speaker 1: the marriage were spent in Germany, including a period in Berlin.
10:35
Speaker 1: Like many young couples, they were trying to establish themselves
10:37
Speaker 1: professionally while also figuring out what they wanted their future
10:41
Speaker 1: lives to actually look like. Esti continued working, while Holger
10:45
Speaker 1: continued with the refrigeration systems and commercial ice cream equipment.
10:49
Speaker 1: As their marriage continued, however, differences between the two of
10:52
Speaker 1: them soon became more apparent. See Holger allegedly became increasingly
10:57
Speaker 1: involved in the Hindu religion here Karrishna. After they got
11:01
Speaker 1: married and his priorities began to shift, He apparently became
11:06
Speaker 1: less interested in work. He frequently slept late, and contributed
11:10
Speaker 1: less to the day to day responsibilities that they shared
11:13
Speaker 1: as a couple. Tensions inside the marriage grew, with arguments
11:17
Speaker 1: also becoming more frequent as the years passed, and one
11:21
Speaker 1: issue that particularly seemed important to Esti was starting a family.
11:25
Speaker 1: See she wanted children for years at this point, but
11:28
Speaker 1: those plans weren't seeming to move forward. According to her,
11:32
Speaker 1: Holger insisted that children should wait for what exactly, Well,
11:37
Speaker 1: it's unclear, but whether those disagreements alone created the distance
11:40
Speaker 1: between them is impossible to know now. In two thousand
11:44
Speaker 1: and five, rather than remaining in Germany, the couple decided
11:48
Speaker 1: to move to Vienna, Austria, where they hoped to finally
11:51
Speaker 1: open a business of their own. Drawing on the experience
11:54
Speaker 1: they both gained working in the ice cream industry, they
11:57
Speaker 1: opened a gelato shop called the Schlekaria. Now. The business
12:02
Speaker 1: was on the ground floor of a building where living
12:05
Speaker 1: quarters and storage spaces were also located above and below.
12:09
Speaker 1: It was a kind of arrangement that was very common
12:10
Speaker 1: among small family businesses, allowing owners to live where they work,
12:15
Speaker 1: keeping operations at a relatively low cost, and after they
12:19
Speaker 1: got up and running, the shop quickly found its place
12:21
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood. Customers came for the Italian style gelato,
12:25
Speaker 1: they came for coffee and desserts, and Esti earned a
12:28
Speaker 1: reputation as a friendly and hard working owner. Now, running
12:33
Speaker 1: a small business requires long working hours, especially during the
12:38
Speaker 1: warmer months when you run an ice cream or gelato shop,
12:41
Speaker 1: but the effort seemed to be paying off for them.
12:44
Speaker 1: Schlekaria developed a loyal customer base and the business was
12:49
Speaker 1: very successful. But behind the scenes, their marriage, on the
12:52
Speaker 1: other hand, while it continued to deteriorate. According to Sti,
12:57
Speaker 1: she increasingly found herself carrying much of the responsibility for
13:01
Speaker 1: keeping the business running. She claimed Holger showed less and
13:05
Speaker 1: less interest in helping, often leaving her to manage customers
13:09
Speaker 1: or finances and daily operations while he pursued other interests.
13:14
Speaker 2: That honestly sounds pretty hard. Like I get people change, yep,
13:18
Speaker 2: in a relationship and when they're married and stuff, but
13:21
Speaker 2: it almost seems like he changed a lot, especially the
13:24
Speaker 2: goals and what they wanted with the kids and stuff.
13:27
Speaker 2: And that being changed is that's kind of that's hard.
13:31
Speaker 1: It is very difficult. But I want to say one thing,
13:34
Speaker 1: and it's a minor spoiler alert. I've already alluded to this. Anyways,
13:38
Speaker 1: this is from the perspective of SD to sche So
13:44
Speaker 1: what we know of how these relationships are deteriorating is
13:48
Speaker 1: from what she later says. Oh, okay, so we only
13:52
Speaker 1: know one side on the side.
13:54
Speaker 2: Yep, And she might not be the most.
13:59
Speaker 1: Saying, honest person many a thing's for sure. Okay. So
14:04
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there is some credibility to what she's saying.
14:07
Speaker 1: There is some truth in it, but how much it's
14:10
Speaker 1: really hard to say.
14:12
Speaker 2: Now.
14:12
Speaker 1: There's also frequent criticisms and arguments between the two where
14:15
Speaker 1: est no longer felt like they were working towards that
14:18
Speaker 1: same future that they were hoping to work together. Eventually,
14:22
Speaker 1: there was no more left to give and the marriage
14:24
Speaker 1: ended in a divorce. Legally, the separation was straightforward, but
14:29
Speaker 1: practically it was anything but. Although they were no longer
14:33
Speaker 1: husband and wife, the business they had built together still
14:36
Speaker 1: tied them to the same property. According to Esti, Holger
14:40
Speaker 1: refused to move out of the apartment connected to their
14:42
Speaker 1: shop after the divorce was finalized, and the result was
14:46
Speaker 1: an unusual and increasingly uncomfortable situation where two people whose
14:51
Speaker 1: marriage had already collapsed into divorce were still living together
14:56
Speaker 1: under the same roof, running the same business just them. Eke,
15:01
Speaker 1: that sounds like a disaster. Yeah, so needless to say,
15:04
Speaker 1: it's creating an opportunity for constant friction between them. Like
15:07
Speaker 1: they're sharing the building, they're crossing paths daily, they're connected
15:11
Speaker 1: in house and work. Now there's little opportunity for either
15:16
Speaker 1: of them to really truly move on while they're living
15:19
Speaker 1: side by side like this. But around that same period,
15:23
Speaker 1: another person entered Sti's life. His name was Manfred hinter Burger,
15:29
Speaker 1: an ice cream machine salesman who regularly visited businesses throughout Austria.
15:35
Speaker 1: Like Holger, his work brought him into contact with shop
15:38
Speaker 1: owners across the industry, and through those visits, he gradually
15:43
Speaker 1: came to know St more and more. Their conversations became
15:46
Speaker 1: more frequent, and soon a relationship developed between the two
15:49
Speaker 1: of them. Now, for st Manfred represented the possibility for
15:55
Speaker 1: starting over again, something fresh in a relationship, you know,
15:58
Speaker 1: pursuing the things she was always chasing, happiness and a family.
16:03
Speaker 1: Manford actually encouraged her to look towards a different future
16:06
Speaker 1: than the one she was currently situated in, and the
16:09
Speaker 1: relationship grew each day. With Holger still living in the apartment,
16:13
Speaker 1: creating a complicated situation. I mean, she was emotionally invested
16:18
Speaker 1: in a new relationship while still sharing a home with
16:20
Speaker 1: her ex husband must have been awkward.
16:24
Speaker 2: Now.
16:24
Speaker 1: Of course, to the customers visiting Schlekria, none of this
16:28
Speaker 1: was visible. But by the spring of two thousand and eight,
16:32
Speaker 1: the balance between their work and personal life had become
16:35
Speaker 1: much more difficult to maintain. The stress, the arguments, the
16:40
Speaker 1: constant being involved in her ex husband's life while living
16:44
Speaker 1: together was just becoming a bearable. She desperately wanted Holger
16:48
Speaker 1: to leave so she could finally move on, but whether
16:52
Speaker 1: it was finances or something else, Holger just remained there.
16:57
Speaker 1: Then Sunday, April twenty seventh and eight came around. Vienna
17:01
Speaker 1: was enjoying one of the first warm weekends of spring.
17:04
Speaker 1: Families were walking through the neighborhood, children played nearby, and
17:08
Speaker 1: Schlekariea was preparing for another afternoon of serving customers. But
17:14
Speaker 1: inside the apartment above the shop, however, the tensions between
17:17
Speaker 1: Esti and Holger were still growing. That afternoon, another argument
17:24
Speaker 1: broke out between Esti and Holger. Like many of the
17:27
Speaker 1: disagreements before it, it centered on the apartment and the
17:30
Speaker 1: fact that Holger was still living there. Then eventually the
17:33
Speaker 1: conversation came to an end and Holger returned to his computer.
17:38
Speaker 1: What happened over the next few moments would remain unknown
17:42
Speaker 1: to anyone else for more than three years, But according
17:46
Speaker 1: to Esti, she was angry following this argument, and that's
17:51
Speaker 1: when she noticed the twenty two caliber Beretta pistol that
17:56
Speaker 1: belonged to Holger. She stood there and stayed at it
18:00
Speaker 1: for a moment and reached out her hand and picked
18:03
Speaker 1: it up. She walked behind her husband where he was
18:07
Speaker 1: sitting at the computer. Olger sat there none the wiser
18:12
Speaker 1: as she put the gun up to his head and
18:15
Speaker 1: pulled the trigger. Dang that escalated big time. Olger was
18:20
Speaker 1: ultimately shot three times in the head at close range,
18:24
Speaker 1: while still sitting in his computer. There was no indication
18:27
Speaker 1: that he had any opportunity to defend himself. It was
18:30
Speaker 1: effectively an execution.
18:34
Speaker 2: Well, honestly, wouldn't you just just need to be shot
18:37
Speaker 2: once in the head and you're basically like done? Yeah?
18:40
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, pretty well. So more than that is
18:44
Speaker 1: just excessive. It's most likely anger ensuring the job is done.
18:48
Speaker 1: It's overkilled. Whatever you want to say, Now, you can
18:52
Speaker 1: technically survive a shot to the head. People have chances
18:55
Speaker 1: are pretty small, though.
18:56
Speaker 2: Very Yeah, but I mean, I guess it's at least
19:00
Speaker 2: kind of nice. He didn't know what was coming. But terrible,
19:03
Speaker 2: like absolutely terrible. She was more than just mad.
19:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, now after she shot him dead in cold blood,
19:10
Speaker 1: mind you ESTI just stood there standing in the apartment
19:15
Speaker 1: over his body, in complete silence. The sound of the
19:19
Speaker 1: gunfire must have been heard outside. She expected someone to
19:23
Speaker 1: knock on the door at any moment, but instead, the
19:26
Speaker 1: only interruption she heard came from her cell phone as
19:29
Speaker 1: it rang when she picked it up. She didn't hear
19:32
Speaker 1: someone asking if everything was okay, though, No, Instead, it
19:37
Speaker 1: was employees downstairs at the shop. They were calling because
19:41
Speaker 1: they needed help. So she went downstairs, stepped up behind
19:46
Speaker 1: the counter, and worked. Customers continued arriving throughout the afternoon,
19:51
Speaker 1: ordering ice cream and coffee while Holger's body remained upstairs
19:56
Speaker 1: in the apartment.
19:57
Speaker 2: Jeez, and she's just going to work like it like
20:00
Speaker 2: nothing happened.
20:01
Speaker 1: She just went to serve ice cream to kids. Dang,
20:05
Speaker 1: that is really messed up. Nothing about the business appeared
20:10
Speaker 1: unusual when she was there, doing this just normal day,
20:14
Speaker 1: and yet some upstairs is someone dead, bleeding, someone just
20:20
Speaker 1: to still love.
20:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I don't quite understand how you could just
20:24
Speaker 2: go on your day right without full on panicking.
20:29
Speaker 1: People could have would have literally have been standing feet
20:34
Speaker 1: from his dead body.
20:36
Speaker 2: M hm.
20:38
Speaker 1: Now, when the workday ended, Esti left the apartment for
20:41
Speaker 1: the evening, likely to separate herself from what she had
20:44
Speaker 1: done and think about what to do next. And the
20:46
Speaker 1: following day she returned back home confronted with the problem, well,
20:51
Speaker 1: a problem she didn't actually think about. See, Holger's body
20:54
Speaker 1: had already begun to decompose, so the smell was getting strong.
21:00
Speaker 1: So at first she searched for a way to get
21:03
Speaker 1: rid of it without having to cut it apart because
21:05
Speaker 1: of that smell, because it would have been too much
21:07
Speaker 1: and overwhelming, and reportedly one of the first methods she
21:11
Speaker 1: attempted was to light him on.
21:14
Speaker 2: Fire inside where they're living or where she's living.
21:18
Speaker 1: Correct. She reportedly poured high proof alcohol all over the
21:23
Speaker 1: body and tried to burn it up inside the apartment,
21:26
Speaker 1: believing it was going to eliminate the evidence somehow, but
21:30
Speaker 1: as you can guess, it didn't go too well. Instead,
21:33
Speaker 1: the attempt quickly filled the room with thick smoke and
21:36
Speaker 1: activated the building's fire alarm, so soon firefighters they were
21:43
Speaker 1: responding to the scene. When they arrived, Estie reportedly told
21:48
Speaker 1: them that she had burned food while cooking, and that
21:51
Speaker 1: explanation apparently satisfied the responding crew. Now what I could find,
21:57
Speaker 1: They came inside, checked her apartment, brief ventilated the smoke,
22:01
Speaker 1: and left. They never discovered Holger's body. How, I do
22:06
Speaker 1: not know. It has not been reported as far as
22:08
Speaker 1: I could find. But for one reason or another, one
22:11
Speaker 1: of the closest opportunities to under to uncover this murder
22:15
Speaker 1: passed without raising any suspicion whatsoever. Huh, And you have
22:20
Speaker 1: a look of ultimate shock on your eyes.
22:22
Speaker 2: I am just shook right now. That last paragraund was
22:25
Speaker 2: pretty messed up, because well, the fact that she thought
22:28
Speaker 2: that that would work is interesting. And then I don't
22:32
Speaker 2: know why my brain didn't think that firefighters would come.
22:36
Speaker 2: I'm like, holy shit, she's in trouble. But apparently she
22:40
Speaker 2: was pretty sly and got away with it.
22:43
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, after that, st went out and purchased a chainsaw,
22:49
Speaker 1: one of what size? Again, I'm not too sure, but
22:52
Speaker 1: what followed was a very lengthy and bloody process of dismemberment.
22:57
Speaker 1: SD would actually turn on the ice cream making machine
23:00
Speaker 1: while using the chainsaw in an attempt to help disguise
23:03
Speaker 1: what she was doing with the extra noise. Now, eventually,
23:06
Speaker 1: after doing what she needed to do, Holger's body had
23:09
Speaker 1: been dismembered, and Esti turned her attention to cleaning. She
23:13
Speaker 1: spent hours washing the apartment, removing blood and eliminating any
23:18
Speaker 1: visible sign of what had happened. Then, once she believed
23:21
Speaker 1: the apartment had been cleaned thoroughly, Holger's remains were placed
23:25
Speaker 1: into containers and temporarily stored inside freezers that were part
23:30
Speaker 1: of the business, likely right alongside food that would have
23:33
Speaker 1: been served in the shop.
23:35
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, just a second.
23:38
Speaker 1: We need to talk about something first of all, and
23:40
Speaker 1: that's where the remains stayed for several months. Several months. Sorry,
23:46
Speaker 1: that's why I interrupted. So it was important, okay.
23:48
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, her using a chainsaw is unhinged, yes,
23:51
Speaker 2: literally unhinged. And wasn't his job something to do with refrigerators?
23:57
Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah, he was like a technician ya, which I
24:00
Speaker 1: don't know.
24:00
Speaker 2: I just feel like that makes it extra terrible in
24:03
Speaker 2: my mind.
24:04
Speaker 1: Because it's kind of like part of his job and
24:06
Speaker 1: that's where he's being held.
24:07
Speaker 2: And she just leaves him in there for months when
24:10
Speaker 2: like other shit is stored and they're like ice cream.
24:12
Speaker 1: Well I don't know for sure.
24:14
Speaker 2: Probably likely, and she has employees and stuff. Yeah, wouldn't
24:20
Speaker 2: maybe be like what's.
24:21
Speaker 1: In these bins? Maybe probably looking.
24:24
Speaker 2: For like salt, a caramel that's out of stock. Well,
24:26
Speaker 2: maybe it's in this bin and then it's.
24:27
Speaker 1: A freakin' human or maybe it's your raspberry cheesecake and
24:31
Speaker 1: it's like, what's this extra red on top? Oh, no,
24:35
Speaker 1: you're trying to wreck my favorite. I'm sorry I went
24:37
Speaker 1: back to you.
24:38
Speaker 2: Don't I wasn't actually intending to wreck your favorite? Well
24:42
Speaker 2: you really wrecked mine.
24:45
Speaker 1: Anyways. During this time where his remains were stored in
24:48
Speaker 1: the freezer, life outside the apartment continued almost interrupted. Customers
24:53
Speaker 1: returned to the Selecaria each day, and friends and neighbors
24:56
Speaker 1: occasionally asked about Holger and st offered some explanations for
25:01
Speaker 1: where he was, saying he was traveling abroad or maybe
25:04
Speaker 1: moved away or gone to India, even depending on who
25:07
Speaker 1: she was talking to, and without any obvious reason to
25:10
Speaker 1: doubt those explanations. People just kind of accepted that Holger
25:15
Speaker 1: had left. Months passed before Esti finally dealt with the
25:19
Speaker 1: remains in the freezer. However, she didn't spend that time
25:22
Speaker 1: in between doing nothing. See, she actually attended a concrete
25:27
Speaker 1: mixing course. She also gathered necessary materials, and when she
25:32
Speaker 1: was ready, she began sealing Holger's remains inside concrete filled containers.
25:39
Speaker 1: Then when she was done, she even had some friends
25:42
Speaker 1: and acquaintances reportedly help her move some of these heavy
25:46
Speaker 1: containers into a locked storage area that was beneath the shop.
25:52
Speaker 1: They were simply thinking they're helping her move things like,
25:54
Speaker 1: you know, construction material, old equipment or whatever, So they
25:57
Speaker 1: were unknowingly helping her move her ex husband's remains.
26:02
Speaker 2: The goal of her to even ask people that probably
26:06
Speaker 2: knew him to help her with this.
26:07
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, by the time the work was finished, there
26:10
Speaker 1: was little inside the apartment to suggest a violent crime
26:13
Speaker 1: had actually taken place there. The building returned to its
26:16
Speaker 1: normal routine. Schlekaria remained open, Customers continued stopping in throughout
26:21
Speaker 1: the week, and business carried on much like it always had.
26:25
Speaker 1: Families stopped in for Gelato. Neighbors exchanged greetings, and whatever
26:30
Speaker 1: questions people may have had about Holger, it slowly faded
26:32
Speaker 1: with time. It seemed like life was now good for
26:35
Speaker 1: Esti and she was finally able to move forward, and
26:39
Speaker 1: so her new relationship with Manfred became more and more established,
26:44
Speaker 1: and their relationship developed, and he spent more time at
26:46
Speaker 1: the shop, and eventually the two began building their life together.
26:51
Speaker 1: Friends described them as a couple, and for the first time,
26:54
Speaker 1: there was every reason to believe that they were planning
26:56
Speaker 1: a future. Este later said she still wanted the same
27:00
Speaker 1: thing that she wanted since she was young. She hoped
27:03
Speaker 1: to get married, have children, and finally build a stable
27:06
Speaker 1: family that she felt had always just slipped beyond her reach,
27:10
Speaker 1: and she believed Manfred wanted those things as well. But
27:15
Speaker 1: as the months passed, however, the relationship began showing signs
27:18
Speaker 1: of strain. Reportedly, Manfred's behavior gradually started to change. Esti
27:24
Speaker 1: claimed he drank heavily, and he became increasingly critical about
27:28
Speaker 1: her appearance and often dismissed her concerns when they argued.
27:32
Speaker 1: She also said he encouraged her to undergo cosmetic procedures,
27:36
Speaker 1: including surgery on her nose and injections on her lips,
27:39
Speaker 1: leaving her feeling as though she was constantly trying to
27:42
Speaker 1: become someone else in order to keep him happy. Now,
27:46
Speaker 1: whether those claims accurately reflect the relationship, it's entirely impossible
27:50
Speaker 1: to determine, because again it comes directly from Esti herself.
27:54
Speaker 1: But that isn't good exactly. That's not a healthy relationship,
28:00
Speaker 1: that is true, and whatever the case, what we do
28:03
Speaker 1: know is that the relationship was beginning to deteriorate, and
28:07
Speaker 1: her greatest concern actually soon became the possibility that Manfred
28:10
Speaker 1: was actually seeing other women. According to Sti, she discovered
28:14
Speaker 1: text messages that she believed were inappropriate, and found evidence
28:18
Speaker 1: that he was maintaining online dating profiles, and she became
28:22
Speaker 1: convinced that he was being unfaithful. She confronted him about
28:26
Speaker 1: those suspicions on more than one occasion, but the arguments
28:29
Speaker 1: never seemed to resolve anything. And regardless of whether her
28:32
Speaker 1: suspicions were correct, Esti believed they were, and that's what
28:36
Speaker 1: mattered now. Around the same period, investigators later uncovered evidence
28:41
Speaker 1: suggesting that she had been researching subjects that had very
28:45
Speaker 1: little connection to everyday life. Est soon apparently began researching
28:50
Speaker 1: some odd things like electrical fighters, poisonous plants, and toxic substances,
28:56
Speaker 1: and around that very same time Manfred had begun to
28:59
Speaker 1: experience some unexplained stomach problem, serious enough in fact to
29:03
Speaker 1: actually require medical treatment. But still life of the shop
29:07
Speaker 1: continued without interruption. Customers had no reason to suspect anything
29:11
Speaker 1: unusual was going on between them, though, as business associates
29:15
Speaker 1: continued visiting Schleikaria, suppliers delivered equipment and ingredients in. Manfred
29:20
Speaker 1: himself even regularly came and went through the front doors
29:22
Speaker 1: like any other visitor. But as twenty ten drew to
29:26
Speaker 1: a close, the disagreements between st and Manfred became more frequent.
29:31
Speaker 1: Conversations about trust, commitment, and infidelity rarely ended well between them.
29:38
Speaker 1: She later described feeling trapped, once again, convinced that another
29:41
Speaker 1: relationship she had invested so much hope in was beginning
29:45
Speaker 1: to fall apart. Whatever the reality of the relationship may
29:48
Speaker 1: have been, one fact remained beyond dispute. The tension between
29:52
Speaker 1: them was reaching a point where neither of them seemed
29:55
Speaker 1: to be able to move past it. By November twenty ten,
29:59
Speaker 1: nearly two two and a half years had passed since
30:01
Speaker 1: holger Holds disappeared. Slecaria continued operating as it always had,
30:06
Speaker 1: and Este's life seemed stable privately, though her relationship had
30:10
Speaker 1: become increasingly strained. Then, on the evening of November twenty one,
30:14
Speaker 1: twenty ten, the couple spent time with friends before returning home.
30:19
Speaker 1: They had their fair share of drinks that night, and
30:22
Speaker 1: by the time they arrived back at the apartment above
30:24
Speaker 1: the Schlekariea, another argument had begun and Esti. This time
30:29
Speaker 1: she she wanted answers. Esti confronted Manfred about the women
30:36
Speaker 1: that she believed he was seeing and the messages that
30:39
Speaker 1: she had found, but apparently he just refused to continue
30:42
Speaker 1: the conversation. Instead, he went to bed. He turned away
30:46
Speaker 1: from her and soon fell asleep. Este sat awake in
30:51
Speaker 1: bed while Manfred slept beside her. Her mind was spinning
30:55
Speaker 1: with the thoughts of another ruined relationship, and between the
30:58
Speaker 1: mattress right where she laid was the same twenty two
31:02
Speaker 1: caliber Bretta pistol that had been used more than two
31:06
Speaker 1: years earlier. She reached under the bed into the mattress,
31:11
Speaker 1: removed the handgun, loaded it and looked over Manfred while
31:16
Speaker 1: he slept, she pulled the trigger. Now I could not
31:20
Speaker 1: clarify whether there were three or four shots that were fired,
31:25
Speaker 1: but the end was still the same. Manfred was shot
31:28
Speaker 1: in the back of the head while he slept. He
31:30
Speaker 1: had no opportunity to defend himself, and once again it
31:34
Speaker 1: was an execution. Este then spent the remainder of the
31:38
Speaker 1: night sleeping in the living room, and when morning came,
31:41
Speaker 1: she walked back into the bedroom, looked at his body
31:46
Speaker 1: and reportedly quietly asked him to forgive her for what
31:48
Speaker 1: she had done, and then began disposing of his remains.
31:53
Speaker 2: Oh wow, she just has really good disassociation. I almost
31:59
Speaker 2: feel like apparently she does murders people and then just
32:03
Speaker 2: goes about her day until she's ready to deal with it.
32:06
Speaker 1: Which is super scary to be able to dissociate like that,
32:10
Speaker 1: Like that's psycho like psychopath, that's psychopathy there or something. Yeah,
32:17
Speaker 1: but yeah, just like before using a chainsaw, st once
32:20
Speaker 1: again dismembered her victim. Manfred's remains were cut into pieces
32:24
Speaker 1: and then placed into containers, and she stored them inside
32:27
Speaker 1: freezers that were connected to the business. She again cleaned
32:30
Speaker 1: the apartment thoroughly removed blood and any other visible evidence,
32:34
Speaker 1: before turning her attention to concealing the remains permanently. Manfred's
32:39
Speaker 1: body was ultimately sealed inside concrete filled containers and hidden
32:43
Speaker 1: beneath Schlekariea alongside Holder's remains, mirroring the method used after
32:48
Speaker 1: the first killing.
32:50
Speaker 2: So she just used I mean, she got away with that, right,
32:53
Speaker 2: Why not just use the same method?
32:55
Speaker 1: Yeah? Why not again? Then, reportedly, after completing the cleanup,
32:59
Speaker 1: Sti apparently made an appointment for a manicure because her
33:03
Speaker 1: fingernails had been damaged during the dismember dismemberment and cleaning. Yeah,
33:07
Speaker 1: so you said, good dissociation. I'm saying psychopath. I'm pretty
33:11
Speaker 1: sure there's something there that is really messed up. Yeah,
33:16
Speaker 1: she basically just goes back to normal life. Oh, I
33:18
Speaker 1: need to fix my fingernails. Now, I need to get
33:20
Speaker 1: a manicure, Like holy shit.
33:22
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, the person who's doing the manicure has no
33:25
Speaker 2: idea that there could be like dead person bits under there.
33:30
Speaker 1: Oh, they're likely cleaning out blood and stuff one hundred percent.
33:33
Speaker 2: Yeah.
33:34
Speaker 1: Customers visited Schlekaria throughout the following days. Neighbors passed by
33:38
Speaker 1: without noticing anything unusual in the shop just remained open
33:42
Speaker 1: for business. However, unlike Holger's disappearance, Manfred's absence drew much
33:47
Speaker 1: more attention. He remained in regular contact with friends, colleagues,
33:52
Speaker 1: and business associates throughout Austria's ice cream industry, so when
33:55
Speaker 1: he suddenly stopped answering calls and failed to appear where
33:58
Speaker 1: he was expected, people noticed almost right away. Questions about
34:04
Speaker 1: his whereabouts began circulating, and before long he was even
34:08
Speaker 1: officially reported missing. Este offered explanations for where he had gone,
34:14
Speaker 1: just as she had after Holger disappeared, but nothing immediately
34:18
Speaker 1: contradicted those accounts, and without any physical evidence suggesting foul play,
34:23
Speaker 1: there was little investigators can act upon at the time.
34:27
Speaker 1: Now around then, Este met another man by the name
34:31
Speaker 1: of Roland. Their relationship quickly developed, and before long Este
34:36
Speaker 1: learned that she was pregnant for someone who had spoken
34:40
Speaker 1: years about wanting children. The pregnancy represented something that she
34:44
Speaker 1: had always dreamed of. Meanwhile, Holger Holes and Manfred Hinterberger
34:49
Speaker 1: were now concealed beneath the building, hidden inside concrete filled containers,
34:55
Speaker 1: locked in a cellar, and no one was the wiser.
34:58
Speaker 1: It seemed Esti was finally going to get what she
35:01
Speaker 1: always wanted, and she very well may have, except on
35:06
Speaker 1: June sixth, twenty eleven, workers arrived at the building where
35:11
Speaker 1: est had her shop to deal with a plumbing problem
35:14
Speaker 1: affecting neighboring businesses. It seems that there was a burst pipe,
35:18
Speaker 1: or at the very least, a significant water leak that
35:20
Speaker 1: required access to the interconnected basement area beneath the row
35:24
Speaker 1: of commercial properties to fix. In all honesty, it was
35:28
Speaker 1: routine maintenance, the kind of work that rarely attracts much attention.
35:32
Speaker 1: But as workers moved through the basement, they came across
35:35
Speaker 1: a locked storage compartment beneath Schlekarihea. The space had apparently
35:40
Speaker 1: gone unused for some time, and gaining access required forcing
35:44
Speaker 1: the door open to do their work, and inside they
35:47
Speaker 1: found what initially looked like nothing more than a collection
35:50
Speaker 1: of old freezers, heavy plastic containers, buckets, and garden planters
35:55
Speaker 1: filled with some old hardened concrete. But as the workers
36:00
Speaker 1: cleared the storage area they began to notice the smell.
36:04
Speaker 1: They broke into some old chest freezers, and in that concrete,
36:10
Speaker 1: some chips began to appear garbage bags and black color
36:15
Speaker 1: were poking out, and when they opened it up to
36:18
Speaker 1: see what was inside those garbage bags, a powerful odor
36:21
Speaker 1: escaped from inside. It was the smell of decomposing remains.
36:27
Speaker 1: Realizing what they had likely just discovered, the workers immediately
36:30
Speaker 1: contacted police officers secured the basement while forensic investigators began
36:34
Speaker 1: documenting the scene. As the containers were all opened and
36:38
Speaker 1: the concrete was carefully broken apart, investigators found human remains
36:42
Speaker 1: that had been deliberately concealed inside multiple buckets, planters, and
36:46
Speaker 1: old freezers. The recovery was painstaking. Each container had to
36:53
Speaker 1: be photographed, cataloged, and opened under controlled conditions. Concrete was
36:59
Speaker 1: chipped away piece by piece to avoid damaging any evidence
37:03
Speaker 1: that might still remain inside, and because the bodies had
37:06
Speaker 1: been dismembered before being concealed, investigators first had to determine
37:10
Speaker 1: how many victims they were dealing with before they could
37:13
Speaker 1: even begin to identify them, but as the examination continued,
37:17
Speaker 1: the answer soon became clear. The remains belonged to two
37:22
Speaker 1: separate adult men. Forensic specialists worked to identify both victims
37:27
Speaker 1: through dental records and other available evidence. Those examinations eventually
37:31
Speaker 1: confirmed what investigators had begun to suspect. The remains recovered
37:35
Speaker 1: beneath Schlekaria belonged to Holger Holes and Manfred Hinterberger, two
37:40
Speaker 1: men who had disappeared more than two years apart, but
37:45
Speaker 1: the similarities between these two stood out quickly. Both suffered
37:50
Speaker 1: fatal gunshot wounds to the head before being dismembered. There
37:53
Speaker 1: was evidence that both had been stored temporarily in freezers
37:57
Speaker 1: before eventually being sealed inside these congs cretefield containers, and
38:01
Speaker 1: then they had even been hidden in the same cellar,
38:04
Speaker 1: not to mention they both shared a same partner. It
38:08
Speaker 1: was obvious that the same person was likely responsible for
38:11
Speaker 1: both deaths, and while forensic teams continued working beneath the shop,
38:15
Speaker 1: police also turned their attention to the business itself. Schlekaria
38:19
Speaker 1: remained closed as investigators examined the apartment above. They began
38:24
Speaker 1: collecting documents, photographing the home, and interviewing people connected with
38:28
Speaker 1: the business. Neighbors who had watched officers moving in and
38:31
Speaker 1: out of the building throughout the day quickly realized something
38:35
Speaker 1: serious had happened. Although few could have imagined the scale
38:38
Speaker 1: of what had actually been uncovered beneath their feet, but
38:42
Speaker 1: the news of the discovery while it reached st almost immediately,
38:47
Speaker 1: according to several of the sources, that I had found.
38:50
Speaker 1: Someone from the neighborhood informed her that police were searching
38:53
Speaker 1: the cellar beneath Schlekoriea, and rather than returning to the shop,
38:57
Speaker 1: Esti began making immediate preparations to leave Austria. She withdrew money,
39:03
Speaker 1: arranged for important belongings to be collected, and made sure
39:06
Speaker 1: she had access to her passport via a worker collecting
39:09
Speaker 1: it from the shop. She even asked her cleaner to
39:12
Speaker 1: retrieve her savings. Reportedly, and este left Vienna before investigators
39:16
Speaker 1: had an opportunity to even question her. Infitially, she wanted
39:20
Speaker 1: to actually fly to Mexico, but she abandoned that idea
39:24
Speaker 1: as she believed the airports were likely being watched, so
39:27
Speaker 1: instead she hired a taxi for the journey south to Italy.
39:32
Speaker 1: The trip reportedly cost approximately seven hundred and fifty pounds,
39:38
Speaker 1: and from there she continued traveling until she reached the
39:41
Speaker 1: city of Udine, where she stayed with a street musician
39:44
Speaker 1: that she had recently met her time on the run,
39:48
Speaker 1: though while it lasted only a matter of days, because,
39:51
Speaker 1: working with Austrian authorities, Italian police tracked Esti to her
39:56
Speaker 1: temporary accommodations and arrested her on June tenth, twenty eleven.
40:01
Speaker 1: At the time of her arrest, she was approximately two
40:04
Speaker 1: months pregnant. She was taken into custody without incident, before
40:08
Speaker 1: later being extradited back to Austria, and with her in custody,
40:13
Speaker 1: Sti faced an onslaught of questioning as investigators continued examining
40:17
Speaker 1: every single piece of evidence that was recovered from Schlekoria.
40:21
Speaker 1: In fact, by the time she arrived back in Vienna,
40:23
Speaker 1: forensic teams had already spent days documenting everything that had
40:27
Speaker 1: been found. Detectives also begun tracing ST's movements over the
40:31
Speaker 1: previous several years. They were reviewing financial records, computer data, purchases,
40:36
Speaker 1: and witness statements to understand how two men could disappear
40:40
Speaker 1: years apart without attracting any immediate suspicion, and as the
40:44
Speaker 1: investigation progressed well, it didn't take long for st to
40:49
Speaker 1: omit responsibility for both of the killings. During lengthy interviews
40:55
Speaker 1: with investigators and later before the court, Esti described the
41:00
Speaker 1: deaths of Holger Hols and Manfred Hinterberger in considerable detail.
41:06
Speaker 1: Much of what investigators had already suspected from the physical
41:09
Speaker 1: evidence was confirmed through her own account. She admitted that
41:13
Speaker 1: she had shot both men with the very same twenty
41:15
Speaker 1: two caliber Bretta pistol, before then dismembering their bodies with
41:19
Speaker 1: a chainsaw, temporarily storing them in freezers and eventually sealing
41:24
Speaker 1: them inside in concrete field containers beneath Schlekaria and her
41:28
Speaker 1: explanations for why focused heavily on the relationships she had
41:32
Speaker 1: shared with both of the men. She described Holger as controlling,
41:36
Speaker 1: verbally abusive, and increasingly difficult to live with. During the
41:40
Speaker 1: final years of their marriage, she said he criticized her,
41:43
Speaker 1: mocked her, German contributed little to the business they operated together,
41:47
Speaker 1: and refused to leave the apartment after the divorce. And
41:51
Speaker 1: regarding Manfred, she offered a very similar description. She claimed
41:55
Speaker 1: he had become emotionally manipulative, frequently criticized her appearance, and
41:59
Speaker 1: had been unfaithful throughout the relationship. According to Esti, both
42:04
Speaker 1: relationships left her feeling trapped, isolated, and ultimately unable to
42:09
Speaker 1: imagine another way forward from there, Investigators carefully compared those
42:13
Speaker 1: statements with the evidence that they had gathered. Some aspects
42:17
Speaker 1: of her account could be corroborated through documents and witness
42:20
Speaker 1: statements and physical evidence, but other claims, particularly those involving
42:25
Speaker 1: the private dynamics of the relationships, could not be independently
42:29
Speaker 1: verified since both Holger and Manfred were no longer alive
42:33
Speaker 1: for offering their own accounts, so all that remained was
42:36
Speaker 1: solely Esti's version of events. The physical evidence, however, spoke
42:42
Speaker 1: for itself. Investigators confirmed that both victims had died from
42:45
Speaker 1: gunshot wounds to the head before being dismembered. The concealment
42:49
Speaker 1: methods were almost identical, with both bodies temporarily being stored
42:53
Speaker 1: before being encased in concrete beneath the shop. Records also
42:57
Speaker 1: showed that Esti had attended shooting lessons, completed a concrete
43:02
Speaker 1: mixing course, and purchased equipment that investigators believed had been
43:05
Speaker 1: used during the disposal process. Computer examinations uncovered Internet searches
43:11
Speaker 1: involving electrical fires, poisonous substances, and toxic plants, and as
43:16
Speaker 1: the criminal investigation concluded, attention shifted towards Sti's mental State
43:23
Speaker 1: Court appointed psychiatrist, doctor Heidi Kassner spent more than thirty
43:27
Speaker 1: hours evaluating St before preparing a detailed psychological assessment, and
43:33
Speaker 1: her report concluded that St suffered from a severe and
43:36
Speaker 1: complex personality disorder involving dependent, narcissistic, histeronic, and disassociative traits.
43:46
Speaker 1: According to doctor Cassner, ST's sense of identity had become
43:51
Speaker 1: heavily dependent upon her relationships with men, and when those
43:55
Speaker 1: relationships began to fail, she appeared unable to cope with
43:59
Speaker 1: rejection or conflict in any sort of healthy way. Doctor
44:03
Speaker 1: Cassner also described St as someone who continually searched for
44:07
Speaker 1: a man who could rescue her from whatever difficulties she
44:10
Speaker 1: believed she faced. Each new relationship began with enormous expectations,
44:16
Speaker 1: but when reality failed to match those expectations, disappointment gradually
44:20
Speaker 1: turned to resentment. The evaluation concluded that St fully understood
44:26
Speaker 1: what she was doing when she killed both men, but
44:28
Speaker 1: that her underlying personality disorders significantly influenced the way she
44:33
Speaker 1: interpreted relationships and responded to conflict. Now after completing her evaluation,
44:40
Speaker 1: doctor Cassner warned that Est continued to present a substantial
44:44
Speaker 1: risk of serious violence if she were to ever be
44:47
Speaker 1: released without ongoing treatment. Based on her interviews and psychological testing,
44:53
Speaker 1: she believed there remained a very significant possibility that est
44:58
Speaker 1: could kill again understody circumstances, and that assessment would ultimately
45:04
Speaker 1: become one of the most important pieces of this story
45:07
Speaker 1: that was considered when the court determined where est should
45:10
Speaker 1: spend the rest of her life. ST's trial began in
45:15
Speaker 1: Vienna on November nineteenth, twenty twelve, more than a year
45:19
Speaker 1: after her arrest in Italy. By that stage, the broad
45:24
Speaker 1: outline of the case was no longer disputed, as investigators
45:27
Speaker 1: had recovered the remains of both men and Esti herself
45:30
Speaker 1: even admitted to carrying out their killings. The proceedings therefore
45:34
Speaker 1: focused less on proving who committed the murders and more
45:37
Speaker 1: on examining the evidence surrounding them, trying to understand EST's
45:41
Speaker 1: mental state and determine the appropriate sentence from there. Over
45:45
Speaker 1: the course of four days, prosecutors carefully presented the investigation
45:49
Speaker 1: that unfolded since the discovery beneath the ice cream shop.
45:53
Speaker 1: Jurors heard how victims had been shot with the same
45:55
Speaker 1: twenty two caliber barent epistol before their bodies were dismembered
45:59
Speaker 1: with a chainsaw and then taken stored to the freezer
46:03
Speaker 1: and ultimately concealed inside concrete. And throughout the proceedings, the
46:09
Speaker 1: prosecution argued that neither of the killings had been the
46:12
Speaker 1: result of a brief loss of control. Instead, they pointed
46:16
Speaker 1: to the planning that surrounded the crimes, including the shooting lessons,
46:20
Speaker 1: the concrete mixing course, the purchase of tools and materials,
46:23
Speaker 1: and the nearly identical methods used to dispose of both victims.
46:28
Speaker 1: Chief Prosecutor Petre Freh described the murders as quote depraved
46:32
Speaker 1: and horrific, telling the court that Est was a highly
46:36
Speaker 1: dangerous woman who had shown herself willing to do whatever
46:39
Speaker 1: was necessary to protect her own interests. Est also addressed
46:44
Speaker 1: the court during her testimony. She again accepted responsibility for
46:48
Speaker 1: both murders and repeated many of the explanations that she
46:52
Speaker 1: had previously given to investigators. On the final day of
46:56
Speaker 1: the trial, she offered a brief apology, telling the court
46:59
Speaker 1: that she was sold for taking their lives. She also
47:03
Speaker 1: spoke about discovering she was pregnant shortly before her arrest
47:07
Speaker 1: and described pregnancy as something that had fundamentally changed the
47:10
Speaker 1: way she had viewed her future. Then, on November twenty second,
47:15
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, after four days of evidence and testimony, the
47:19
Speaker 1: jury returned with its verdict. Koit Sargi Estebalize Karnaza Zabala
47:27
Speaker 1: or Esti, was found guilty of the murders of both
47:31
Speaker 1: Holger Hols and Manfred Hinterberger, and rather than sentencing her
47:36
Speaker 1: to a conventional prison term, the court ordered her to
47:39
Speaker 1: be committed indefinitely to a secure psychiatric institution. Judge Suzanne
47:46
Speaker 1: Lair noted that Esti's confession and psychological condition were considered
47:51
Speaker 1: mitigating factors, but those considerations were outweighed by the careful
47:55
Speaker 1: planning involved in both murders and the extraordinary lengths that
47:59
Speaker 1: she had gone to conceal them. While the legal proceedings
48:03
Speaker 1: came to an end, ST's personal life continued to change,
48:06
Speaker 1: but this time behind prison walls. Shortly after her arrest,
48:10
Speaker 1: she gave birth to a son. The child was immediately
48:13
Speaker 1: placed in the care of family members rather than remaining
48:16
Speaker 1: with her in custody. During her imprisonment, she remarried to Roland,
48:21
Speaker 1: the father of her son, describing him as gentle and
48:24
Speaker 1: completely different from the men that she had previously been
48:27
Speaker 1: involved with. The marriage, however, did not last, and the
48:31
Speaker 1: relationship eventually ended. In twenty fourteen, St published a memoir
48:36
Speaker 1: titled My Two Lives The True Story of the Ice Lady,
48:41
Speaker 1: written with journalist Martina Preween. The book recounted her childhood relationships,
48:47
Speaker 1: the murders, and her life in custody from her own
48:50
Speaker 1: perspective and normally I would not promote such a book
48:55
Speaker 1: from someone who committed murders, but according to the publisher,
48:59
Speaker 1: St chose not to receive payments for the book itself. Instead,
49:02
Speaker 1: the proceeds go to her son. In that case, I
49:08
Speaker 1: am fine mentioning that book. That is good.
49:11
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm still kind of hung up here that that
49:15
Speaker 2: guy married her. Yeah, I know, after she has been
49:19
Speaker 2: committed for murdering two other previous postes like yeah, what's.
49:24
Speaker 1: A shit, It's something okay now. Several years later, Austrian
49:29
Speaker 1: authorities transferred Esti to the Forensic Center at Aston, which
49:33
Speaker 1: is a newer forensic psychiatric facility that housed patients requiring
49:37
Speaker 1: specialized treatment. And that's as far as I could find
49:40
Speaker 1: where she sits today. It's hard to believe that families
49:44
Speaker 1: visited an ice cream shop throughout the summer of two
49:46
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, and twenty ten
49:49
Speaker 1: without any indication that two men lay hidden in the
49:52
Speaker 1: basement of that building. Friends searched for Holger Holes and
49:56
Speaker 1: later for Manfred Hinterberger, but they never realized they had
49:59
Speaker 1: been concealed only meters away inside the cellar of a
50:02
Speaker 1: busy neighborhood business. In the end, they were found behind
50:06
Speaker 1: a lock storage area, seemingly forgotten and discarded by st
50:12
Speaker 1: This story ultimately became one of Austria's most extraordinary homicide investigations,
50:16
Speaker 1: but at its heart, it remains the story of two
50:20
Speaker 1: men whose lives ended in the apartment above a small
50:23
Speaker 1: ice cream shop, and whose families finally learned the reality
50:28
Speaker 1: only after chance opened a cellar door and gave way
50:31
Speaker 1: to truth. And that's the story of the ice cream Killer.
50:38
Speaker 1: What a story?
50:40
Speaker 3: Did you look to see?
50:41
Speaker 2: What happened with that ice cream shop? I'm assuming I
50:44
Speaker 2: guess it probably just got closed.
50:46
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm sure it's just closed, and it's just
50:49
Speaker 1: now another business of stores. I'm sure.
50:51
Speaker 2: Gosh, Okay, Well, something I'm so confused about too. Did
50:56
Speaker 2: you see photos of what the concrete boxes of sorts were?
51:01
Speaker 1: No, actually I did not. I could take a look
51:06
Speaker 1: see if I could find it, okay, because.
51:08
Speaker 2: I mean I'm just kind of confused how how that went,
51:11
Speaker 2: how she went and hid them, you know.
51:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I do I have a photo of
51:17
Speaker 1: like the area where they were found, if that makes sense.
51:22
Speaker 1: But like, so here's here, I'll turn my laptop around.
51:26
Speaker 1: So here's a bit of that basement. Well that's gets
51:30
Speaker 1: like the cellar and stuff, and it's locked there. And
51:32
Speaker 1: this is like ultimately the the containers in the area
51:35
Speaker 1: that that one loan freezer in there. So there's like yeah,
51:39
Speaker 1: and I'm sure there was some more that they had
51:40
Speaker 1: already pulled out at that point. It is kind of
51:43
Speaker 1: interesting that these workers, I guess there's a container with
51:46
Speaker 1: some black garbage bags. Maybe that's the concrete in it.
51:49
Speaker 2: Boy, it is kind of interesting that these people just
51:53
Speaker 2: went about like opening that locked door. Oh yeah, without
51:58
Speaker 2: like getting permission or any what. I guess they need
52:01
Speaker 2: to fix something I don't know. And she's renting so well, and.
52:04
Speaker 1: Part of this was like that's one of the most
52:06
Speaker 1: unclear things I wasn't sure on this story because I mean,
52:09
Speaker 1: this is any article I could find, majority of it
52:12
Speaker 1: was in different languages. So how exactly they got into
52:16
Speaker 1: the room and how exactly they opened up for the bodies,
52:20
Speaker 1: my interpretation is, I'm not certain that's exactly how it
52:24
Speaker 1: played out. I do know they went down there for
52:27
Speaker 1: you know, trying to get the pipes and everything, and
52:29
Speaker 1: they went through to this locked room and they gained
52:32
Speaker 1: access to it somehow how I could not clarify. And
52:37
Speaker 1: then how exactly they knew to call authorities I could
52:41
Speaker 1: not clarify. I did read an article that was saying
52:44
Speaker 1: like a leg was sticking out of the concrete, but
52:47
Speaker 1: I do not think that's true because there's people who
52:49
Speaker 1: helped move things in it. It just does not line up. So,
52:52
Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, there was a powerful odor,
52:55
Speaker 1: they had suspicions. I think they cracked open one of
52:59
Speaker 1: the cans or saw something that made them think there
53:03
Speaker 1: was bodies in there and called authorities.
53:05
Speaker 2: Okay, but also I don't know anything about like dead
53:09
Speaker 2: bodies or concrete. But I'm just thinking, say you have
53:13
Speaker 2: a frozen body and then you're putting concrete around it,
53:16
Speaker 2: and then it's going to like decompose and there's gases,
53:20
Speaker 2: so maybe like it does crack or it opened up
53:23
Speaker 2: or something.
53:24
Speaker 1: Okay, So I don't know anything about this either, but
53:28
Speaker 1: I do have a parallel I can draw. There's this
53:31
Speaker 1: couple who's a YouTube creator. I don't know their account.
53:34
Speaker 1: You can google this, you'll find it. But over the
53:37
Speaker 1: course of like the last five years, they've been trying
53:39
Speaker 1: to every Halloween preserve a pumpkin in resin. Oh geez.
53:44
Speaker 1: And it's very interesting because it's organic material sealed away,
53:49
Speaker 1: and that's what remains of a human would be organic
53:51
Speaker 1: material sealed away. Yeah, in fact, actually might not. It
53:54
Speaker 1: might even be easier in this case with concrete because
53:57
Speaker 1: it's porous. But I digress. So it's interesting to see
54:00
Speaker 1: how you can see the decomp of the pumpkins inside
54:04
Speaker 1: the sealed resin. Still you can see build up of gases,
54:07
Speaker 1: and some of them even to the point where it's
54:09
Speaker 1: cracking inches of resin and fluid is leaking out.
54:13
Speaker 2: Okay, so there you go.
54:14
Speaker 1: So I would assume it's going to act that same way.
54:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, and there there was I mean, she
54:21
Speaker 2: didn't let them in there, you know, And there was
54:24
Speaker 2: some sort of curiosity and yeah, gosh, just the worst
54:28
Speaker 2: nightmare honestly finding something like that.
54:31
Speaker 1: Oh for sure. I think if you're going to seal
54:33
Speaker 1: someone in concrete, you would have to have much more
54:37
Speaker 1: than you know, a container's size or deep freezers size
54:41
Speaker 1: of volume. Yeah, to actually have its seal properly.
54:46
Speaker 2: So she runs into problems and just this is her way.
54:50
Speaker 1: Of dealing with them basically. Hm.
54:55
Speaker 2: Well, honestly, the guy that she ended up marrying, she
55:00
Speaker 2: wasn't in prison because the relationship did not last. It
55:04
Speaker 2: probably would have happened to him, so I feel like
55:05
Speaker 2: he's pretty lucky.
55:06
Speaker 1: Really, oh, one hundred percent. Even that doctor, the psychiatrist
55:10
Speaker 1: was like, uh, she gon't kill again if she's loud
55:13
Speaker 1: let out.
55:14
Speaker 2: Which is scary.
55:16
Speaker 1: Huh.
55:17
Speaker 2: And this isn't even very old. I was, yeah, like
55:20
Speaker 2: twenty twelve or whatever, right, yeah, crazy.
55:24
Speaker 1: Well, I thought it would be a case that interested
55:26
Speaker 1: you because you like your ice cream, so you're welcome
55:30
Speaker 1: for that.
55:30
Speaker 2: Oh I know. But I think I do feel bad
55:33
Speaker 2: kind of for those people who did go to that shop,
55:35
Speaker 2: because that's kind of odd or like worked there, you know, Yeah,
55:38
Speaker 2: for sure, kind of traumatizing really.
55:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could only imagine, just imagine, thinking, well, I
55:42
Speaker 1: went there when there would have been bodies. I would
55:47
Speaker 1: have been standing there and there would have been bodies.
55:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, or I went there when one of them was
55:53
Speaker 2: still in the freezer.
55:54
Speaker 1: Right, I don't know.
55:55
Speaker 2: You just don't think about that, I guess.
55:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't think about it. Just enjoy your ice cream.
55:59
Speaker 1: That's the more of the story. Enjoy your ice creamy. Anyways,
56:04
Speaker 1: thank you for being here. That is a joke. That's
56:05
Speaker 1: not the moral of the story. But we appreciate you. Yeah,
56:10
Speaker 1: everything you do for us means the world. Your support
56:12
Speaker 1: is incredible. You listening to the very end here is amazing.
56:16
Speaker 1: We're an independent podcast and your support means everything. That's
56:20
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say. If you want to support
56:22
Speaker 1: us more, you can check out links in the description
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56:26
Speaker 1: get ads free listening experience there. But if you don't
56:29
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56:30
Speaker 1: review that goes a long way too. But if you
56:32
Speaker 1: don't want to do that, even hey, you're here, thank you.
56:35
Speaker 1: Maybe listen to next one. That'd be cool. You're still
56:38
Speaker 1: cool no matter what you're cool. I like you guys.
56:41
Speaker 1: Thank you? Should I say thank you again? We like
56:45
Speaker 1: you guys, we do. You're great, But always got to
56:48
Speaker 1: end it with this.
56:50
Speaker 3: Until next time, stay wicked.
57:00
Speaker 2: Oh oh