Latest / UK Column Radio / Weekly UKC Banter Episode 21 — Build Parallel Structures as Soon as Possible

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Weekly UKC Banter Episode 21 — Build Parallel Structures as Soon as Possible · UK Column Radio

0:35
None. I want to chat to you a little
0:39
bit about the the G20, the summit that's coming up here in
0:42
South Africa. But I want to premise that with
0:45
something that has been grinding me up the wrong way.
0:50
And right now in South Africa, what is dominating discourse
0:56
right across the entire media spectrum.
0:59
And I suspect that this is absolutely not organic, but it's
1:05
race and racial conflict, right, Because Trump pulled out of his
1:09
boycotting and then Argentinian president was in Emilay also
1:13
pulled out. So now it's you jokingly known
1:16
as the the G18I think this is great that they've pulled out,
1:20
but they've the reason why Trump pulled out is because he's
1:22
saying that white farmers are being attacked and ANC
1:25
government is doing nothing. Fine.
1:27
I'm not terribly interested in that.
1:28
What I'm interested in is why the discourse is so intensely
1:34
focused on that and the ANC rather than the immense damage
1:41
that the G20 represents, because they're going to be discussing A
1:46
sustainable development and more specifically digital ID, social
1:52
credit scoring. Every Western country is
1:56
experiencing the same thing. So we have, we have tensions
2:00
created within societies and those are being used to drive
2:06
wedges between people and that's being used as diversion for
2:11
what's actually going on and we are falling for it left, right
2:17
and centre. And so it's no different than
2:19
South Africa. The question is whether whether
2:24
it's possible for people to, to recognise, look, when we, when
2:30
we are looking at the information space at the moment
2:33
and we all recognise that, that we are in an information war, or
2:38
at least we give lip service to the idea that we recognise that
2:43
we're in an information war. Lots and lots of people aren't
2:48
prepared to set aside whatever prejudices that they have in
2:56
order to sort of look at the information war and look, look
3:00
at the, the, the players on the board.
3:02
Because, you know, we've been talking about this since the
3:07
censorship agenda really kicked off in 2017 or 2018.
3:14
Just take one organisation, the Institute for Strategic
3:17
Dialogue, which because, and I only mention, keep mentioning
3:21
them because they are the ones that have specifically stated
3:26
what, to what degree they are funding influencers, that they,
3:29
they have thousands, thousands of influencers on the payroll in
3:36
order to do what? I mean, what, what, what, what
3:40
could the possible reason be for, for, for funding and
3:43
supplying to YouTube and the other social media platforms.
3:47
This number of people, it can only be to, to forward a
3:52
particular agenda, a particular ideology.
3:58
And, and so when we are in, but setting that aside, we're now
4:04
entering a period where that the effect of those real human
4:11
influencers is being amplified by increasingly automated
4:15
systems and AI and bots of various types.
4:21
So it becomes even more important for us all to be
4:25
actually looking at the information space and looking at
4:28
what we're being presented with and trying to work out what's
4:32
real and what isn't. So of course what we are saying
4:36
is, is massive amplification of, of talking points which, which
4:42
are controversial, which caused tension, angst, anger in people,
4:47
which absolutely get people focused on the wrong target.
4:52
And that, you know, we, we've been heavily criticised,
4:57
continue to be. I mean, I got an email
4:59
yesterday, the day before from someone saying, yeah, look, I'm
5:04
basically, I paraphrase, but basically saying that, you know,
5:06
I'm still watching your stuff, but I'm not, I'm not paying for
5:09
a membership anymore because because you're, you're too anti
5:13
Tommy Robinson and you're too pro Muslim.
5:15
And that's neither of those things is actually correct.
5:20
The point is we're saying to people, it's not a question of
5:25
being anti one thing and pro another thing.
5:27
We're saying to people, no, hold on.
5:28
What we're witnessing here is someone who's playing an
5:34
audience on one hand and we're seeing a a group of people on
5:40
another, on the other hand who have all the faults of any other
5:44
group of people. But they also have a section of
5:48
their society which has been radicalised and funded and in
5:55
some cases armed by the governments that are our
5:58
governments. And so they have a, a, a bigger
6:03
problem than maybe other communities, but that doesn't
6:06
mean that we have to, you know, take the entire and, and put a
6:13
blanket blame culture on, on an entire community because that's
6:18
falling into the trap that's been set for us.
6:20
And, and that, that's the point that we're trying to make.
6:22
Now there's nuance in that and it's, but, but, but the way that
6:25
this is being presented and the, the way that you're expressing
6:28
this in South Africa, it's being presented the same way in every
6:31
country is that it's black and white.
6:33
And, and so that becomes a very relatively easy thing when
6:38
people are under pressure economically, they're under
6:40
pressure for a host of different reasons to just find a target
6:44
and go with that target even though it's the wrong one.
6:47
It's a low hanging fruit. Well, it's, it's, but it's been,
6:52
it's been laid out for people and that's the problem.
6:55
And, and we've got to, we've got to start recognising that when
6:58
something's laid out for us that maybe that's not the right thing
7:01
we should be looking at. Yeah, it reminds me of that
7:05
whole Antifa thing in we was at Portland.
7:07
I mean, that was obviously not organic.
7:11
Well, you, but, but if you look back at, at, at most of the so
7:16
called colour revolutions and, and the, the so called
7:18
grassroots uprisings that have taken place right across the
7:22
world, they have been artificial.
7:24
And, and this is just another one.
7:26
And, and what so we're, we're not learning the lessons of
7:29
history again, in the sense that because it happened in that
7:32
country over there. Well, it, it's, it's different
7:34
here. Well, it's not different here.
7:35
It's exactly the same MO. Going back to the specifics of
7:39
the G20, I mean it the, the way I would consider it is that it
7:43
is, it is tossing out a, a classic false binary.
7:47
Because both of the things you're talking about, the
7:50
business that is actually to be discussed by the G20 and the
7:54
sort of apparent sideshow, they're both about the same
7:58
thing, which is everybody look this way at all the important
8:00
people who are making decisions about your lives and whether or
8:05
not you can get drawn in by one thing or the other is neither
8:08
here nor there. It's still a win if you're drawn
8:11
in as opposed to thinking, well, hang on a minute, do these
8:14
people and the stuff that they're talking about and
8:17
apparently stand for really have a legitimate bearing on my life?
8:22
And if not, then what am I going to do about that?
8:24
But, but there's always a sort of side job.
8:27
It's a bit like the the Will Smith slap at the Oscars.
8:31
It's, it's the sort of, it's the same thing.
8:34
It's just pulling people, pulling people's attention in
8:36
and and being able to generate that media interest that ensures
8:42
that people are going straight over the most obvious hurdle,
8:46
which is do these people have any legitimacy?
8:50
And the answer really in most respects I think should be no.
8:56
I agree with with Trump's decision and I agree with me
8:59
that his decision. This is a great this is a great
9:01
thing. And imagine how wonderful it
9:03
would be if all countries boycotted it and there was no
9:06
summit. Do you do you think that would
9:07
change anything though? No, no, but.
9:11
Right. So so so.
9:13
It's a form of protest, though. But, but it isn't going to
9:17
achieve anything, right? And, and this, this I think is,
9:22
is, is one of the things that people should be thinking about
9:27
here. Let's say, let's say we, let's
9:31
say we deal with the migration issue.
9:33
Let's say we, let's say we close the borders today and let's say
9:36
we expel, you know, 2 or 3 million people from the UK.
9:42
What changes at that point? Nothing changes at that point
9:47
that, that we haven't solved anything by doing that because
9:51
what, what are they, what are the problems here?
9:53
What are the problems that people are actually facing?
9:56
No high quality jobs. They're facing an energy cost
10:01
which is off, you know, off the planet that that's, that's as a
10:06
result of the, the, the structural, the structure of the
10:11
energy market, particularly in the UK and Europe.
10:14
We're net 0 isn't going to go away.
10:17
Digital ID isn't going to go away.
10:19
None of these policy agendas that, that that we all recognise
10:23
are a massive threat to, to our very freedoms are going to go
10:29
away. So what we're, what we're
10:32
dealing with, what, what we've dealt with.
10:34
If we win that battle, if people perceive that that's a battle
10:37
that they should be winning at this point, if that's the most
10:39
important thing for them at this time, if they win that battle,
10:45
what, what, what changes? Nothing, right?
10:48
Nothing because we still won't have enough reservoirs to
10:50
provide the water that we need. We still won't have clean water.
10:53
We still won't have roads at work.
10:55
We still won't have potholes filled in.
10:56
We still won't have and you can go on with the list.
11:00
So nothing changes, right, Because the target's wrong and
11:03
everybody's focused on, on the guy in the hotel or the guy in
11:07
the, in the, in the temporary accommodation or the guy that's
11:09
getting £500 to go back to France or whatever, whatever The
11:13
thing is, that's, that's the focus.
11:15
And yet the people that are actually causing us the trouble
11:18
are just continuing on with what they want to do and nobody's
11:22
saying a word to them. It's, it is, it is fascinating
11:25
to me that you know, that, that people are so caught up in, in
11:31
one issue that, that they're quite happy for the rest to just
11:36
progress. And you know, and they'll say
11:39
that they're not happy. Of course, they'll say I'm
11:40
against digital ID, but they're not, they're not focused on that
11:43
issue. They're focused on the, on the
11:44
migration issue. And that's the only thing
11:46
they're focused on. And they're looking for it for
11:49
Tommy or for Raj to come and, and save the day for them.
11:51
That's not going to work because neither of those guys is
11:54
criticising in any substantive way the the bigger agendas that
12:00
are at work here. I saw a, a sort of a microcosm
12:05
of this expressing itself a week or so ago.
12:08
And I thought, gosh, that absolutely encapsulates the
12:12
incredible amount of time, energy and effort that goes into
12:17
something that yields nothing. And it was in, I was driving
12:20
through Gloucester and there was a, there was a gathering outside
12:25
the Ibis Hotel, which is being used to house migrants.
12:29
I don't know if the entire hotel is used for that purpose or
12:31
what. I'm not quite sure what the
12:32
specifics are. But, but, but it was a classic.
12:35
You had, it was on a sort of side road off, off of main road.
12:38
So it's kind of visible from the main road.
12:40
And at one side, sort of cordoned off by a police line,
12:48
were protesters carrying union flags and, and that sort of
12:54
thing making a, making a din. And that is literally what they
12:57
were doing. I mean, if anyone was absolutely
12:59
be able to back that up, there's nothing, there was nothing sort
13:01
of constructive or significant being said, as it were, or
13:06
indeed done. And then there was a, there was
13:09
a gap across the hotel frontage where there was nobody permitted
13:12
to go. And then there was another
13:13
police line. And then the other side of the
13:15
police line was a, a counter protest, let's say.
13:20
And the only banner that was legible to me from where I was
13:23
standing as I'd approached it was just a banner that said
13:26
diversity is our strength. So basically 22 groups of
13:29
people, two groups of brainwashed people determined
13:33
that they are, you know, opposing the people on the other
13:36
side of that police cordon with a, with a hotel full of migrants
13:40
in the middle. I mean, what possible result was
13:44
either of the the two sort of protesting parties expecting and
13:49
yet that had that was on AI think it was a Saturday
13:52
afternoon. It had drawn in.
13:55
I don't know how many 100, but I mean, quite significant number
13:57
of people who who have presumably dedicated quite a lot
14:00
of time and energy into organising it and getting
14:04
banners and stuff made and and and all the rest of it, as well
14:07
as the significant police cost. And they even had a helicopter
14:11
up for goodness sake. And, you know, and all this goes
14:14
on and then at whatever time it just gets collapsed.
14:17
I don't think there was any trouble.
14:19
But I mean, apart from anything else, what are the, what are the
14:22
people in the hotel supposed to think?
14:25
You know, there was no sort of formal or direct communication
14:28
with them from either party. So are they supposed to sort of
14:33
look out the window and think right, Well, those guys on the
14:34
right sort of, I think, I think don't like us and those ones do.
14:38
But actually what's going to be the material difference to our
14:41
lives as a result of this event? Absolutely nothing.
14:46
And and yet this is, you know, this is seen up and down the
14:49
land and and you think of the the similar thing was happening
14:53
in Epping at the Bell Hotel. OK.
14:54
That was triggered by a particular incident that would
14:57
have was misreported. And then when the hotel was
15:01
ceased to be used for that purpose, that was misreported.
15:03
Or at least that was that was a bit of chicanery in a way,
15:06
because in fact, that was nothing to do with the council
15:11
saying, right, yeah, OK, this is just not on.
15:13
We shouldn't be doing this. It was a planning issue.
15:15
And that's that was what created the the court to make that
15:20
decision. So it is it is completely
15:23
remarkable. I'm not, I mean, I'm not
15:24
suggesting that none of these people have valid views, but the
15:27
the problem that people have is knowing what to do.
15:31
And so going back to your point about whether the G20 is
15:35
boycotted or not, you know, you, you have to be able to plot that
15:39
whole way through and think, well, what, what is the result
15:42
of that? And my contention would be that
15:46
people's efforts that day in Gloucester or wherever else.
15:50
And I'm absolutely not saying, oh, you know, there's no point
15:51
in protest. I'm saying that you, you have to
15:55
really, really think about it and identify what your objective
15:58
is and how you're going to achieve that.
16:00
But just making a din outside a place where you perceive there
16:04
to be either a bad thing or a good thing is not in itself ever
16:09
going to change anything. And so, you know, the, the sort
16:13
of the organic debate, I mean, certainly in in other places I
16:17
have absolutely, definitely seen, you know, the, the sort of
16:20
the antifa element or the the opposing side totally, totally
16:25
confected. I mean that that is that is
16:27
beyond doubt that it's absolutely just render mob.
16:31
So so this whole thing, you know, we come back to it's sort
16:33
of it's on a weekly basis. It's just just look what look
16:36
what they're making people do, which is just to scrap with each
16:39
other and and completely miss the point of of everything, but
16:42
also totally sort of get rid of their own agency by by engaging
16:50
in these, I'm afraid to say, sort of pointless actions.
16:54
So that there is, you know, there's, there's got to be
16:59
common ground. I mean, that's a good example on
17:01
the, on the migration thing, people who say diversity is our
17:05
strength and well, you know, if you've done nothing wrong,
17:08
you've got nothing to worry about.
17:11
I, I think you'd have to be quite bloody minded not to see
17:15
the privacy and data issues with digital identity, digital
17:19
currency, the centralisation of all that kind of information.
17:23
So, so it does seem like there, there really should be points at
17:27
which there is a sense of unity found and that in turn could
17:32
lead, lead to, you know, meaningful actions by
17:37
significant rejection of a particular scheme.
17:41
But I think we've, we've got a, we've got a long way to go
17:43
before that. And I think that, you know,
17:45
shenanigans around around the G20 articulates that perfectly.
17:48
You've just got a couple of people who are making a bit of a
17:51
making a bit of a fuss and and that's where the attention goes
17:54
rather than anything actually happening.
17:57
Well, anything actually happening is related to a
18:01
question that my wife asked me this morning when I was talking
18:03
about exactly this. And she asked me, OK, now if
18:09
digital ID is coming via the banks and in the next couple of
18:13
years you will need to scan your QR code when you enter a bank or
18:17
even a restaurant or some sort of building or whatever, she
18:21
said. So she asked me what can you do
18:24
about it right now? Like what can you do?
18:26
Well, like the, the answer isn't easy, but the answer is pretty
18:29
simple. OK, it's not easy to to
18:33
implement, but it's simple to express.
18:35
We've got to be already building the parallel structures.
18:38
That means we don't need to engage with that system And and
18:42
that means, you know, well, I mean, it should be fairly
18:44
obvious to people what that means.
18:46
It means what we've been talking about for the every time, pretty
18:49
much every time we've been on this this programme germ.
18:52
That means making relationships with farmers so we can get food.
18:55
It means using cash, so and and building networks of people that
19:00
that can support each other. We'll have a need.
19:05
To engage with that system. Hold on.
19:07
Yeah, but Mike, that's that's correct.
19:09
And I I agree with you obviously and I'll I'll promote that.
19:12
But if the banks, they are retracting the amount of
19:17
physical cash that's in the system.
19:18
So every time you purchase something, a lot of that cash
19:23
disappears because it goes back to the banks.
19:25
So they can swap it out with digital.
19:27
What eventually that that physical cash is going to run
19:30
out? So people find other ways.
19:34
I mean, it's not like it's not, it's, it's not really rocket
19:37
science. German people were trading
19:39
before there was any such thing as cash.
19:42
You know, this, this is not something which is well, but you
19:46
know, even in a country like the UK where where we have this idea
19:51
of, you know, a monopoly on, on cash because the Bank of England
19:56
is the only bank which is allowed to print money, that
20:01
doesn't stop people using some other form of token.
20:05
You know, you create your own money, there are local
20:06
currencies around this country which, you know, we can have a
20:09
discussion about, about who and what kind of people were driving
20:13
the idea of local currencies in the past.
20:16
But but these things are absolutely possible.
20:19
It just requires people to be thinking these this way and,
20:22
and, and getting organised. You know that that it is
20:26
possible to trade with people without cash.
20:31
If if without using sorry, the the government issued cash.
20:35
But the principle of cash is just an, an agreement between
20:38
people that some that a particular token has has a value
20:42
and, and that we swap this token for this this particular product
20:45
or this good. And, and, and, and so you create
20:49
a parallel infrastructure. I mean this, this is the, the,
20:54
the danger of this is, is recognised by government
20:57
because, because the UK government has has made the
21:01
issue of creating parallel structures and a part of the
21:06
definition of extremism and terrorism effectively.
21:11
So, so you know, they, they, there is a recognition at, at an
21:15
establishment deep state level that, that, that people getting
21:19
organised in this way is something which is undesirable
21:21
for them. So if it's undesirable for them
21:24
and they're putting it in their documentation that it's
21:26
undesirable for them, we should be saying to ourselves, well,
21:29
OK, let's get on with it. Getting people organised is it's
21:33
just an impossible thing. Everybody was organised during
21:36
COVID because they had something about which to rally around.
21:42
Right, right, right, right. But, but I'll just, I'll just,
21:45
yes, that's true. I'll just interrupt you there
21:47
because, because the issue there, the difference there was
21:50
the existential threat was right there in front of people.
21:53
At this point in time, the existential threat, digital ID
21:58
is still something for that which for most people is pretty
22:01
ephemeral. It's something which is starting
22:03
gradually to, to impact people's lives, but people are still it,
22:09
despite the, the lessons that may or may not have been learned
22:11
from COVID ocracy, people are still unwilling to, to look
22:16
ahead and see what's coming and act now.
22:18
They want, they want to wait for, for the, the, the thing to
22:21
be blattering them over the head before they're actually willing
22:23
to engage. So, so I think the, the what
22:27
needs to happen is that the people that do have that, that
22:30
foresight get themselves in a position that they can provide
22:36
others with an answer when when the time comes.
22:39
In other words, don't give up. No, no, absolutely.
22:42
We can't give up. I think also one shouldn't
22:46
regard this as being a necessarily a sort of macro
22:50
issue for for all the reasons that we've been through.
22:52
I mean ultimately you really just need to make your own plan.
22:56
So if you have got somebody that you know will accept something
23:01
other than digital money for whatever it is that you want,
23:05
let's say fuel for your car that's not supposed to be on the
23:09
road anymore because it has a combustion engine.
23:12
You only need to find one person that's willing to, to do a deal
23:16
with you and then and, and that will in turn spark a network.
23:23
I think that's how things, you know, these things start.
23:26
And to a certain extent, although yes, personally I am
23:33
sort of paying cash, well, I suppose pretty much exclusively
23:38
for things and and whatnot. I, I feel like there is, there
23:43
is a pretty good network in, in the UK of people who do have
23:47
skills and goods that would be absolutely willing if it comes
23:53
to it to create another system, however informal.
23:56
And I don't think, I think this is the other thing.
23:58
I think in the first instance, there doesn't doesn't need to be
24:01
any great sense of sort of formality to it.
24:05
We're, we're not talking about the necessity for a centralised
24:09
national system, thank goodness. I mean, I also find it slightly
24:13
ironic that that it is cash, which of course has no inherent
24:17
value that we've become so, so wedded to.
24:21
And yet, you know, we, we talk about gold and silver quite a
24:24
lot. But I think still everybody's a
24:26
little bit reluctant to consider that you might actually end up
24:30
spending or trading something that does have a value.
24:34
But it's, you know, it, it is not that difficult to imagine.
24:38
I mean, the way I look at this, I think now and OK, this, this
24:42
is yet to be demonstrated by concept or proof of concept, but
24:47
but I see this as an absolutely massive opportunity.
24:50
You know, if there there will be people out there who absolutely
24:53
do have the skills and the wherewithal to create.
24:58
Yeah. I mean, you know, either a
24:59
parallel system, if that's what one wants, call it, or a
25:01
template for, for doing something differently.
25:03
I mean, in effect, not, not that I'm sponsoring this, but but
25:07
cryptocurrency is a very, is a very good example of that.
25:11
You know, somebody's just created a different system and
25:14
anyone can do that. But but the point is, it can be
25:17
done. We don't need to look to
25:19
governments or enormous corporations just to make plans
25:22
for us. And equally, we don't have to
25:24
have the whole country fall in line for us to think, Oh, right.
25:26
Well, OK, now I can do that. Just you just make the going
25:29
yourself, you work out what it is you need and, and how you can
25:33
go about doing that. And I, I really do think that
25:35
there is a way that you would not, you know, not in absolutely
25:38
every respect. Of course, I do concede that I'm
25:40
not being, I'm not being over overly idealistic about it.
25:45
I, I would hope are overly optimistic.
25:47
I think, I think there is the degree of realism.
25:49
But then again, do we, you know, if people really sat down there
25:53
was sort of pencil and paper and went through every single
25:56
element makes contribution to their live lives, do we really
26:01
need all the stuff, all the things, all the, you know,
26:04
accoutrements to our lives that we currently have?
26:06
Probably not. I mean that is the existential
26:10
question though, because I think it comes down to convenience and
26:15
ease of living. You know, if the, if the banks
26:19
want you to be verified with a digital ID and you don't want
26:23
that, then you have to, you know, not bank with them.
26:27
But the problem then comes in, you will need those networks
26:33
already set up, you know, in advance so that you can operate.
26:37
So for example, here in South Africa, there's no law requiring
26:41
anybody to be vaccinated for anything, right?
26:43
So you don't have to, you don't have to by law, get an injection
26:46
in your arm for anything. MMR doesn't matter what it is,
26:48
nothing. However, the private sector can
26:54
implement, you know, vaccination mandates by proxy.
26:59
They'll, the schools might say, you know, you don't have to be
27:01
vaccinated, but they won't accept your child.
27:05
Yeah, But hold on a second. Who, who, who says that that
27:08
this is the way to live The, the the convenience, the convenience
27:12
agenda is, is laid down in front of us.
27:14
It's it's convenient. You can, but but who says that
27:18
is the the right way to be? Why, Why are we why are we as,
27:25
as people looking at, at the world and saying this is not
27:30
right, It's not being run properly.
27:32
It's the what's being offered is something that I don't like, but
27:38
I'm still willing to consume what they give me.
27:40
I'm still willing to. It doesn't matter whether it's
27:43
media Hollywood, you know, I, I want the convenience of a mobile
27:49
phone, a, a, a smartphone and, and all the stupid social media
27:53
rubbish that I consume, right. How much, how much of what is,
27:57
is, is consumed on social media has any value to any one of us?
28:02
And yet so many people spend their entire lives.
28:06
I mean, they, they even use terms like doom scrolling.
28:08
I mean, you know, it's, there's a recognition there that this is
28:11
not healthy and we choose bad health.
28:16
We choose it, we choose it and going to McDonald's, we choose
28:19
it and going to KFC, we choose it and using pharmaceutical
28:23
products, we choose bad health. You're talking about the, the
28:27
worry that that your child not might not be accepted in a
28:30
school. Why would you want the education
28:33
that they're providing? Why would that matter to you?
28:36
So, so this is, this is about, we've had, we've had this
28:40
conversation so many Times Now, Jeremy, this is about the
28:43
choices that we make and, and our personal ideology, our
28:49
personal morality, our personal view of the world.
28:53
And and it begins. It begins there.
28:58
Actually on that, sorry, just just to get because I think
29:00
Jeremy, am I right, you've, you've interviewed Tom Cahan, is
29:06
that right? Tom Cahan, Yes, a couple of
29:08
times. Have you talked to him about
29:10
education? He believes in homeschooling and
29:13
not and not being a part of the system.
29:14
Yeah. Yeah, All right.
29:15
The example that he that he puts in, I don't know how many books
29:20
he's written, but a book of his about education, it's absolutely
29:25
fascinating. And and it's, it mirrors
29:27
exactly, let's say the, you know, the correlation between
29:31
the exponential rise in the number of pharmaceutical
29:35
products and their consumption and poor health, poor health
29:38
outcomes, whatever, you know, this is, they absolutely are
29:41
running side by side, Tom Khan writes.
29:46
But this amazing discussion he has with somebody about the
29:49
necessity for a formal education, and I will condense
29:54
it, but basically it is to say that before any formal schooling
29:58
started, the population of America by percentage had
30:03
largely read the writings of Thomas Paine and now no one has.
30:10
And, and this was cited as being the the sort of the way in which
30:14
you would determine whether somebody was sort of engaged
30:17
with life and educated because, because they could actually
30:20
understand what was being written and how important it was
30:25
to the lives of people to have digested this particular text.
30:28
So the point of it is that it's, it's just like spending money
30:33
that actually is not worth anything.
30:34
We are so confined by our ideas that, you know, education does
30:40
actually deliver what it's supposed to when in the vast
30:45
majority of cases it simply doesn't.
30:47
I, I mean, I, I consider that of, you know, of myself and, and
30:53
I think it's very hard to look at, to look at education,
30:58
certainly in the United Kingdom as being for the benefit of
31:04
really anyone but the state and, and the corporate entities that,
31:08
that need slaves to make the, to make the wheel turn.
31:11
So I think, I think the, that the scale on which we have to
31:17
reconsider is so much bigger than than we're liable to do,
31:22
because so often the flames do appear to be licking at the
31:26
front door. And you, and, and therefore
31:28
that's what you've got to concentrate on rather than
31:31
stepping further back to, to, to sort of, you know, Crow ball,
31:36
the analogy yet further. And, and, and really think about
31:41
all of it and going, you know, and, and again, the, the, the
31:45
delight of doing that is that you can go back in time to
31:49
points at which none of this stuff either existed or
31:53
mattered. I went to the, I went down to
31:59
Portsmouth recently to the, to the docks, the historic docks,
32:03
which is where they've got, you know, some of the exhibitions
32:05
there are amazing. But the Mary Rose, which was
32:07
brought up in 1982, I think they, they got it up off the
32:12
seabed and found 19,000 artefacts.
32:14
But, but in there are some newly minted coins, gold coins, you
32:21
know, hardly ever in circulation.
32:24
And you know, you just look at that and compared with a, with a
32:28
coin or a banknote today, obviously it's crude, it's not
32:30
sophisticated, but for the people that used it, it was that
32:35
was enough. That was absolutely fine.
32:36
It meant something. They all knew what it meant.
32:38
So for us to similarly create, whether it be currency or or
32:44
whatever, it is a different system.
32:47
As long as you have in your your own sort of supply chain for
32:52
your life, you have an unbroken link of people that will do.
32:58
You know with you that the sort of trade and interaction that
33:01
you want to and that it makes sense to all of you, We're fine
33:03
and to hell with the rest of them.
33:06
I just realised that I'm coming across as a complete normie.
33:09
I'm obviously trying to provoke conversation.
33:12
Yeah, I'm on the same side. A friend of mine says he's got
33:18
two kids. He he he decided with the second
33:22
child not to register his child's birth.
33:27
All right. So in other words, no ID number,
33:29
no ID book, nothing. Doesn't want the government at
33:32
all to know that this child exists.
33:35
Obviously won't go to school. Both kids will be home schooled.
33:38
They stay in the middle of of the country, you know, in the
33:42
middle of nowhere kind of thing. And he calls it unlearning.
33:46
All right, So that's what he's going to teach, teach his kids.
33:50
But the reality is that that child is going to be incredibly
33:55
restricted from general life. Sorry, this friend of yours
33:59
lives. Yours lives in South Africa.
34:01
Yes. Yeah, so, so just so as I
34:04
understand this, your your friend lives on the biggest, the
34:09
continent on the planet that can has has war to give than just
34:14
about anywhere else. Is that really that they can't
34:17
get on a flight? Is that a problem?
34:19
I mean, they could, they could spend their entire, they could
34:21
spend their entire life travelling from from one part of
34:25
Africa to the next and never get back to the starting point
34:28
before they die. You, you, you could well, well,
34:31
I mean, how do you cross the border without an ID?
34:33
That's what I'm. That's what I'm asking.
34:35
Are you suggesting that there's border guards on every point?
34:38
On every. I mean, you're talking about.
34:41
I get where you're going. Right.
34:44
So, so, so you know, the question, the question is
34:48
whether, what, what, what restriction that actually
34:52
provides at the end of the day, because it's only a restriction
34:54
if you want to be part of of the system that that's being
34:58
provided and and there there are opportunities outside of that.
35:04
It's a brilliant example. The passport everybody we will a
35:08
totally conditioned to think, I mean crack it sort of going full
35:12
circle on the migration thing because look, look how that
35:14
works out. But but, but the idea that you
35:16
do that you do have to go through a particular port to
35:19
show your documents to make sure that everybody knows that you
35:22
know, you're going into another country.
35:24
I mean, that is a very, very, in relative terms, that is a very
35:27
new system that we all think is the only way to do it.
35:32
And then crikey, there are, yeah, crossing land borders in
35:36
Africa. Not a not a bother.
35:39
You do not need to go through an immigration base that I can.
35:44
But I mean, I mean without, without making it sound utopian,
35:48
it's not easy. This is an incredibly difficult
35:51
path. Well, I mean, you sort of have
35:57
to qualify that really, don't you?
35:59
Yeah, I I agree. OK, wait, wait, wait.
36:01
Charles, Charles. Charles, can you you Charles,
36:04
can you operate right now without an ID?
36:11
Well, you see the the problem with that question just just to
36:14
be difficult is of course I, I am where I am.
36:17
So, so let's say a lot of the stuff that I've sort of set up
36:20
would have required, would have required the things that we're
36:26
some of the things we're talking about or.
36:29
Whatever, Sorry, I I say ID, but I yeah, no.
36:32
No, no, I know what you mean. But it is.
36:35
But it's, but it's very odd because the whole thing sort of
36:37
comes from from nowhere. Because in the first instance,
36:41
you know, if you do, if you register a birth and I I'm sure
36:44
it would be the same in South Africa.
36:45
But if you register a birth in the United Kingdom, you get a
36:47
birth certificate. But, but a birth certificate is
36:50
not proof of identity. So the the whole thing is
36:55
predicated on very, very flimsy nonsense.
36:59
I can't, I actually can't quite remember how you do get to the
37:04
stage of proving, as it were, your identity.
37:08
You know, because because once here it's your if you have a
37:12
passport or if you have a driving licence, then supposedly
37:16
you can prove your identity with that.
37:18
But but you see, you don't. You're not obliged to have a
37:20
passport or a driving licence. And since the birth certificate
37:24
is not proof of identity, actually the whole system is.
37:29
It is fake, really. It's totally fake and it's, it's
37:34
predicated on, for example, the idea that you give a, an honest
37:39
answer to your name whenever you apply for, yeah, an account with
37:44
the electricity company in, in the property that you happen to
37:46
be inhabiting. And that that seems to be
37:48
sufficient to to to identify you with a bank, for example.
37:54
So, so you know the the whole identity thing in the in the 1st
37:58
place is completely without foundation in many cases because
38:03
as you say, your birth certificate is not proof of
38:07
identity. It's often used as, as one of
38:10
the elements in, in identifying yourself to, to an agency of
38:15
some kind, but it's not. So it's, it may be taken as
38:18
proof sometimes, but it's not legally proof.
38:23
So, so, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I mean, we all know that
38:29
how easy it is to, to create a fake identity.
38:31
The, the intelligence agencies do it all the time.
38:35
The police, I guess do it for if they're going undercover.
38:38
So it's not hard to create a fake identity.
38:43
The question is, the question is whether we should be doing much
38:45
more of that. Maybe that's another option for
38:48
for fighting back. Yes.
38:50
In other words, rather than one person out of 100,000 not
38:55
registering the kids, 100,000 people should not be registering
38:59
the kids. I mean, what's actually going to
39:00
happen? What will the state do?
39:02
Yeah, quite. That's it.
39:04
And, and you know, the whole idea of proving your identity
39:07
is, is, is, again, it's, it's utterly sort of disingenuous.
39:13
It's not, it's not because anyone needs to know who you
39:15
are. They just need to know what
39:17
you're doing. And, and those are, those are
39:20
two typically different things. I mean, I think I'm, I'm, I said
39:22
before how ridiculous it is now that, you know, we're, we're
39:26
sort of being led to believe that biometrics and stuff is so
39:29
important because otherwise you just can't be sure.
39:31
And, and the first time I travelled for any great length
39:34
of time through Africa, it was on a passport that was just on
39:39
the cusp of running out. So it was, it was nearly 10
39:42
years old. So I had a picture of a, you
39:45
know, whatever it was a picture of an 8 year old child.
39:48
And it was when they, when they used to record height in the
39:51
passport. And I think I was, you know,
39:54
whatever I was, I was nearly 50 centimetres taller than the than
39:58
the thing. And yet no, at no point did any
40:02
of the many many. Border officials that I handed
40:05
it to, no one looked at it and thought, OK, but that's just
40:09
that's, that's a photograph of a short child and that's not who
40:13
you are, but we'll let you through anyway.
40:15
So, yeah, it's, we have, you know, that, that's what's being
40:21
used to convince us that these technological advancements are
40:27
for our, you know, for our, well, OK, convenience, but, but
40:31
sort of security and safety. Well, it's absolute rubbish.
40:35
I mean, yeah, you've, you've, you've spoken to Ian Davis
40:38
recently about specifically this on the, on the digital identity
40:42
front. And it's just, yeah, you know,
40:46
it's, it's marketing. The whole way in which this
40:48
stuff is being sold is utterly, utterly disingenuous.
40:51
Absolute rubbish. There's an interesting history
40:55
behind digital idea. I don't know if you know who
40:58
actually came up with the idea. It it'll be on one of my
41:03
upcoming shows. I spoke to a guy who runs a tech
41:06
company, the states. I, I, I won't go into it now,
41:11
but he was chatting briefly about the guy who came up with
41:14
the idea was about 20 years ago and it was noble in its intent.
41:22
And then it was quickly bought by Microsoft.
41:25
The idea of of the state giving you an ID seems quite
41:28
contradictory, but the idea of a decentralised personalised
41:33
identification it does seem like a good idea.
41:40
Sorry, you saying that's something there for that's not
41:43
controlled by the state, Yes, right.
41:45
OK. Yeah, well, again, that's
41:47
another another sort of element that again doesn't really get
41:52
considered. Why should it be, you know, why
41:54
should it be the state telling me who I am?
41:58
In effect, by virtue of the fact that they that they issue the
42:01
birth certificate or the passport or the driving licence
42:04
to say yes, you are this person, surely it's up to me to decide
42:09
if I am that person or indeed who I say I am.
42:14
The original question was do we need to, or at least at some
42:18
point. The question was, do we need to
42:21
engage with the system? We got into a conversation about
42:24
how we might not, but of course we, we can still engage with the
42:29
system and with a view to disrupting it.
42:34
And of course, in order to do that, we've got to probably get
42:38
ourselves fully engaged with digital ID and so on.
42:42
But you know what, I've, I've told this story many, many
42:47
times, a lot of years ago, a guy in Plymouth here not paying his
42:52
council tax and, and trying to establish on what basis he had
42:58
to pay his council tax and what was the process that would he
43:00
would go through if he refused to pay and, and so on.
43:04
And he took it to the court and, and, and we attended as, as, as
43:10
witnesses on the day just to see what happened.
43:12
And, and the first thing that that I realised was as I walked
43:17
into the court was in the FOIA outside the actual courtroom,
43:21
there were half a dozen council employees there to try to
43:26
negotiate with anybody that turned up at at the court that
43:29
day to, to try to set up a payment plan or whatever it was.
43:32
But the last thing they wanted was anybody actually going into
43:36
the court and offering any kind of defence they wanted.
43:40
They they were effectively hiring the court for the day.
43:42
And they wanted to, to go in with their spreadsheet of non
43:45
payers and to get a blanket order from the court that that
43:48
they could proceed with, you know, you know, taking those,
43:52
those names to, to bailiffs or whatever to, to recover the
43:56
debt, the debt collection agencies and so on.
43:59
So it was obvious that on that particular day, I think there
44:03
were something like 1500 people on that list that a 1500 people
44:07
that turned up to the courtroom that day that the entire system
44:11
would have collapsed on under. It's a weight, right.
44:15
And, and you know, no matter what we think about the
44:20
legislation that is in place at the moment with respect to
44:23
digital to data protection, sorry, for example, the
44:29
legislation is there. And one of the tools that is
44:32
provided by that legislation is, is something in this as far as
44:35
the UK is concerned, other other countries have similar
44:38
situations. One of the things in the UK that
44:41
that we have at our disposal is, is the subject access request
44:44
where we can make an application to any, any body, whether that
44:48
be a corporate body or a public body and say what is the data
44:53
that you hold on me? And they are required to within
44:56
20 working days provide you with a copy of everything that they
44:59
have about you. Now if we if we do that in a
45:03
systematic way, we bring the entire system to a halt.
45:08
Now, whether they can implement some form of artificial
45:13
intelligence based mechanism for dealing with these at some point
45:18
in the future, they can't do it today.
45:21
So, so, you know, the, the aim should be if, if, if what we're
45:26
if what, what we're saying is that we don't like this tech
45:29
technocratic system which is being developed.
45:31
The aim should be at the very least to slow it down.
45:34
And the way that we slow it down is that we keep it so tied up
45:37
and knots responding to, to requests and, you know, similar
45:44
sorts of things that, that, that it can't, you know, people can't
45:50
progress the thing because they're so busy all the time.
45:52
You know, a lot of right back at the very beginning when, when
45:56
the, the supermarkets in the United States and the United
45:59
Kingdom started producing loyalty cards and they were, you
46:03
know, you got your loyalty card, which allowed them to then
46:06
associate your specific, the specific items that you were
46:10
buying with your identity. People were, people were saying,
46:16
well, this is, this is insane. Looking back on it now, it seems
46:20
utterly tame compared to what we have at the moment.
46:23
But, but people were sticking those cards in the post to each
46:27
other and, and deliberately attempting to, to make the data
46:33
that was being collected worthless to the supermarket.
46:35
Because, you know, one week I was buying stuff in Plymouth,
46:40
the next week I was buying stuff in Manchester or the next week I
46:43
was buying stuff in Washington, DC and it was buying different
46:46
stuff every time. So, so you know, the, the, the
46:48
principle behind that was to poison the database.
46:51
And, and this is, this is exactly the right approach.
46:54
It's and it's something that that nobody is really doing at
46:57
this point, I think. Because people are scared.
47:02
People got to stop being scared, you know?
47:05
People, people can be scared and and sit and shiver in the
47:07
corner, but that's not going to stop anything, you know?
47:10
So what are you scared of? Are you scared of what's coming?
47:15
Well, it isn't here yet, so don't be scared of it now.
47:19
Fight it. And then it doesn't.
47:20
Then it never arrives. I mean, you know, we've got to
47:23
make a decision. It all comes down to us making
47:25
individual decisions. We talked about this so many
47:27
times. I think that is probably the
47:30
ultimate solution, Mike, when when people say ah, but.
47:33
No, the ultimate solution, Jeremy, is that we have to.
47:36
We have to be fighting on every front.
47:39
We can't, we can't just do the, I'm going to buy stuff from a
47:43
local farmer. I'm going to find a local way, a
47:45
way to trade locally with, with like minded people.
47:48
We can't just do that. We've got to also do the other
47:51
thing. So, you know, I think in
47:52
reality, to some degree we, we should be certainly working to
47:57
minimise any interface that we have with, with the, with the
48:00
system. But, but to some degree we've
48:02
got to, we've got to make a decision, you know, how much
48:06
interface we do have with it and, and what we're going to do
48:09
with that interface. And, and in the meantime, I
48:11
think we should be using it as much as we can to to disrupt it
48:16
as much as we can. Also, I think I think it is
48:19
interesting to consider because sorry, we, we rather moved on,
48:22
but you're the friend you're talking about who's going to,
48:25
who's planning to bring up a child in effect with no, you
48:28
know, sort of outside of the system.
48:30
I mean, you know, ultimately I think it comes down to their
48:35
sense of purpose and happiness, joy and love in life.
48:41
Why? Why should we associate being
48:45
outside of all the control mechanisms that we want to get
48:47
away from, be synonymous with having a sort of miserable,
48:53
unfulfilling life? I don't see that that it should
48:55
be at all. I think yes, OK, we have got
48:59
used to being able to do whatever it is, buy something
49:04
with a credit card and immediately get on a flight to
49:06
the other side of the world or or this that and the other.
49:09
But to say that we derive a higher pleasure in life from
49:14
being able to do that, I think is I think it's a hard one to
49:19
argue. So I think just again, a re
49:23
evaluation of, of what a fulfilling life may actually
49:28
entail is, is, is something that we should do.
49:32
It is interesting how frequently it comes back to the sort of
49:35
rural urban divide, because I think a lot of, a lot of what we
49:38
do talk about people are necessarily constrained by, by
49:42
where they physically are. And, and I'm, I, I'm, you know,
49:47
I don't think anyone should be sort of criticising other
49:49
people's life decisions, but I have a bias inherent just
49:54
because I, I do live outside of urban areas and, and pretty much
50:00
always have done. And therefore I can see for, for
50:04
my part, I, I can see exactly how a life can work outside of
50:09
the urban environment. And, and to me really, you know,
50:14
given certain, certain conditions, like if you, if you
50:18
have got sufficient materials with which to educate yourself,
50:22
your family, this and the other, and you've got a source of food
50:27
and a means of transport, then, you know, you sort of are
50:32
sorted. How that quite compares to or in
50:37
an, in a, in an urban environment, I don't really
50:39
know. I think I I think what would be?
50:41
Very interesting. Sorry.
50:42
The other thing, Charles, is that there is a practical
50:47
reality here. Other other land masses have
50:51
better opportunities. But in the UK, if we've got 70
50:54
million people here and everybody wanted to live a rural
50:56
life, that that ain't going to work.
50:58
Exactly. Yeah, No, totally.
51:00
I mean, and that's that's the thing.
51:02
We we, we do return to the sort of where we are, where we are.
51:05
What I, what I was about to say was I would be very interested
51:08
to hear from somebody who feels that they are in a way protected
51:15
from all the things that we're talking about.
51:16
But that they do live in a, in an urban environment, that they
51:18
do have access to food. That they may not be growing on
51:22
their own property, but that, you know, whether fire and
51:25
allotment and this that and the other.
51:26
And that they are in in some ways perhaps bartering or
51:30
entering into different types of trade agreements and are not,
51:33
and don't, you know, don't feel that they're reliant on the
51:36
sorts of things that I think in the, in the countryside, I don't
51:38
feel I'm reliant on. It'd be really interesting.
51:40
I mean, I there must be people there who who do sort of fall
51:43
into that category, but I, but I'm not sure I really know any
51:48
interesting area. Well, we're coming in for a
51:50
landing and just to horseshoe to the start of the conversation.
51:55
This is the kind of conversation that I wish more S Africans were
52:01
having rather than black, white, black, white, black white the
52:05
whole time. Yeah, I mean, I'll keep saying
52:09
this. We got to stop thinking in terms
52:11
of black, white, left, right and thinking about looking up and,
52:16
and at who is actually pulling the the puppet strings on so
52:20
many and, and actually working out that black, white.
52:26
We're actually on the same side and and.
52:30
There is no left, right? Precisely.
52:33
Great chatting, Charles. Mike, I'll catch up with you
52:36
next week.