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Discovering What Really Matters in Leadership w/ John Pepper · Something Extra

0:01
John Pepper: You've come to realize that what do you leave behind in this world?
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John Pepper: We don't know how long we're gonna be here.
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John Pepper: It's an indefinite duration.
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John Pepper: Some people
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John Pepper: die most die younger than I do, but the thing you're gonna leave behind
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John Pepper: is a difference you've made on other people.
0:19
John Pepper: That's it.
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John Pepper: Really.
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John Pepper: Anything else, awards, things you've written in text, like, maybe somebody
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John Pepper: over here, That's fine.
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John Pepper: But the main thing is whatever you left behind in terms of an impact
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John Pepper: on other people, and not so much by
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John Pepper: what you've said,
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John Pepper: but but by what you've done, yes, but above all, by how you've
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John Pepper: made them feel.
0:47
Lisa Nichols: It takes something a little more to lead with impact.
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Lisa Nichols: I'm Lisa Nichols, author of Something Extra, and this
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Lisa Nichols: podcast was inspired by our daughter, Allie, whose additional chromosome has
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Lisa Nichols: shaped how I see people in leadership.
1:01
Lisa Nichols: Each episode features conversations with inspiring leaders from around the world
1:06
Lisa Nichols: about what truly defines how they lead and serve others.
1:10
Lisa Nichols: If you enjoyed today's conversation, please consider leaving a five star
1:14
Lisa Nichols: review.
1:15
Lisa Nichols: It helps more people discover the show.
1:18
Lisa Nichols: And if you'd like to go deeper, my book, Something Extra, is available on
1:22
Lisa Nichols: Amazon and through other major book retailers.
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Lisa Nichols: Today, we are joined by iconic business leader John e Pepper, retired
1:30
Lisa Nichols: chairman and CEO of Procter and Gamble.
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Lisa Nichols: From driving global product innovation to sharing timeless wisdom on character
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Lisa Nichols: driven leadership, he brings decades of extraordinary experience to our conversation.
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Lisa Nichols: John is also a multi time author.
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Lisa Nichols: Join us as we dive into his extraordinary journey, his lifelong love
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Lisa Nichols: of literature, and what decades of values driven leadership teach us about
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Lisa Nichols: purpose.
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John Pepper: I'm delighted to be with you today.
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John Pepper: Enjoyed learning about what you've done and and bringing to light the
2:01
John Pepper: lives and thoughts of so many people, and I I thank you for doing
2:04
John Pepper: that.
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Lisa Nichols: Well, thank you so much for those encouraging words, and thank you for making
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Lisa Nichols: the time to be on the show.
2:11
Lisa Nichols: I just...
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Lisa Nichols: I I truly just feel so honored,
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Lisa Nichols: that you're on here with me, John.
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Lisa Nichols: I really do.
2:19
Lisa Nichols: I can't even tell you.
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Lisa Nichols: I just happen to know a lot of former Procter and Gamble,
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Lisa Nichols: employees.
2:27
Lisa Nichols: Jim Bechtold, doctor Greg Allgood.
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Lisa Nichols: I just had him on my podcast recently.
2:34
Lisa Nichols: Sue Hale,
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Lisa Nichols: a a a woman that I knew a long time ago, sit on a
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Lisa Nichols: board.
2:39
Lisa Nichols: Brian Wells.
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Lisa Nichols: You you probably may or may not know some of those names, but
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Lisa Nichols: I cannot tell you how many people, John, have told
2:49
Lisa Nichols: me that you were one of the best CEOs they ever sat under.
2:54
John Pepper: Oh, I know all of the people you've mentioned.
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John Pepper: Brian Wells is a dear dear friend and
3:03
John Pepper: a wonderful religious,
3:06
John Pepper: I guess, confident correspondent, call it what you will.
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Lisa Nichols: Yes.
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Lisa Nichols: Consultant.
3:12
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
3:12
Lisa Nichols: Right.
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John Pepper: And and and Jim, what a character he is.
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John Pepper: So good memories.
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John Pepper: And Greg, yes, indeed.
3:19
John Pepper: We go way back to the
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John Pepper: pure water campaign that he's now taken on to world level.
3:26
John Pepper: It's
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Lisa Nichols: Right.
3:27
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
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John Pepper: Life he's
3:30
John Pepper: lives he's saving and changing by the work of World Vision.
3:34
John Pepper: It's it's it's tremendous.
3:37
Lisa Nichols: It really is.
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Lisa Nichols: It's so inspirational.
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Lisa Nichols: And I...
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Lisa Nichols: On that story, John, I will never forget this.
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Lisa Nichols: When he was saying that women and girls walk two hundred and twenty
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Lisa Nichols: million hours a day just to get water.
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John Pepper: That's right.
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Lisa Nichols: I mean, that that is just...
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Lisa Nichols: To me, that is mind blowing.
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Lisa Nichols: And we were talking about how you...
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Lisa Nichols: When you're when you're spending that much time just to get water,
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Lisa Nichols: you really cannot even have the margin in your mind to think
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Lisa Nichols: of much else.
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Lisa Nichols: And so I just love it.
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Lisa Nichols: But but both Jim and Greg, doctor
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Lisa Nichols: Allgood, told me that you are one of the best CEOs
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Lisa Nichols: they've ever sat under.
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Lisa Nichols: So I just feel very privileged, truly, that you
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Lisa Nichols: are spending this time with us and that you're gonna share some of your
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Lisa Nichols: wisdom with our listeners.
4:34
Lisa Nichols: So, you know, I mean, you were the CEO
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Lisa Nichols: at P and G.
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Lisa Nichols: I'm not really sure how many years was that, John.
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Lisa Nichols: How many years were you the CEO?
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John Pepper: I was the CEO and chairman for
4:48
John Pepper: six...
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John Pepper: Seventy or six years.
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Lisa Nichols: Six years.
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Lisa Nichols: Yes.
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Lisa Nichols: But I know that you've also,
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Lisa Nichols: you know, I know that you were at Disney, Yale.
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Lisa Nichols: I think you took...
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Lisa Nichols: After you had retired from P and G, when a lot of people might
5:03
Lisa Nichols: just be playing golf every day, you took on a role at
5:07
Lisa Nichols: Yale, which is your alma mater.
5:10
Lisa Nichols: Right?
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John Pepper: Right.
5:12
John Pepper: Right.
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Lisa Nichols: So...
5:13
Lisa Nichols: But let me ask you.
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Lisa Nichols: So you've been in some really, you know, iconic
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Lisa Nichols: organizations,
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Lisa Nichols: big, big roles.
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Lisa Nichols: What is one leadership principle, John, that no
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Lisa Nichols: matter where you were, carried you through all those different organizations?
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John Pepper: Well, if I had to pick one word, it would be purpose.
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John Pepper: In each of those.
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John Pepper: And going back before that to when I was in the Navy or
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John Pepper: in school,
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John Pepper: I think it was an orientation to purpose and that is
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John Pepper: achieving something of excellence that was important.
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John Pepper: It changed, of course, but each of the roles I
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John Pepper: was aiming to to do it well,
6:03
John Pepper: to do it in a way that impacted other people positively.
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John Pepper: And hopefully, would leave it in a way that was sustainable
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John Pepper: and, that would carry on
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John Pepper: mainly through the principles and by the people, and
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John Pepper: the culture
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John Pepper: that had been put in place.
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John Pepper: You can recognizing times change, but
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John Pepper: I'd say if I had to pick one word, it would be purpose.
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John Pepper: Mhmm.
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John Pepper: Another orientation
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John Pepper: where for me certainly would be love.
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John Pepper: Love in the broadest sense.
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John Pepper: Love of God,
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John Pepper: love of the purpose, love of the people we serve,
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John Pepper: love of fellow employees,
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John Pepper: because, really, love keeps you.
7:00
John Pepper: I've...
7:01
John Pepper: I said to people, young people, try to find something that
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John Pepper: you feel is worthy of a lifetime of your best effort.
7:09
John Pepper: Find something worthy of a lifetime of your best effort.
7:14
John Pepper: And I've...
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John Pepper: I felt that way when I went in the Navy knowing I probably wouldn't
7:17
John Pepper: stay for more than three years, but I threw myself into it
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John Pepper: as if I was gonna be in it my whole career.
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John Pepper: And I think that's the only way you...
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John Pepper: At least I've found I can learn is by throwing yourself into
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John Pepper: it.
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John Pepper: And that's it, how you find out if you love it.
7:35
John Pepper: Yes.
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John Pepper: And and by coming to love it,
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John Pepper: carry on in a way that does justice to the cause,
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John Pepper: which is what it's about.
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John Pepper: Do justice to the cause.
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John Pepper: Do justice to the purpose and facilitate
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John Pepper: better yourself and with other people.
7:54
John Pepper: So one word would be purpose.
7:57
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
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John Pepper: That would be the orienting word
8:01
John Pepper: really throughout, I guess, my life and probably your life,
8:07
John Pepper: maybe all our lives.
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John Pepper: But you're fortunate if you have a purpose and you get to my age
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John Pepper: now, I'm now eighty eight.
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John Pepper: And I think, you know, I thank God for even being...
8:17
John Pepper: Like, your body is not designed to last this long.
8:20
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
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John Pepper: What
8:21
Lisa Nichols: What a blessing.
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John Pepper: If you do, I think God has some purpose for you.
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John Pepper: You you wanna keep figuring out what that is.
8:30
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
8:31
Lisa Nichols: Amen.
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Lisa Nichols: I say as long as there's breath in your lungs, right, there
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Lisa Nichols: is a reason
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Lisa Nichols: that he still has us here for sure.
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Lisa Nichols: So I think both of those are good words.
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Lisa Nichols: And I am so happy that you mentioned love because I remember Jim
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Lisa Nichols: in his doctoral,
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Lisa Nichols: studies.
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Lisa Nichols: His thesis was he he explored this whole idea of love
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Lisa Nichols: and people feeling cared for, and you guys had the whole love
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Lisa Nichols: campaign.
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Lisa Nichols: I mean, P and G, I...
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Lisa Nichols: I'm like, wow.
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Lisa Nichols: What a...
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Lisa Nichols: What an amazing organization.
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Lisa Nichols: I think you guys were...
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Lisa Nichols: I I don't know.
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Lisa Nichols: There's so many...
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Lisa Nichols: I don't know what the statistics are, John, but there's so
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Lisa Nichols: many leaders of other organizations,
9:19
Lisa Nichols: right, who started their careers at Procter and Gamble.
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Lisa Nichols: I think you guys were a machine, to develop leaders.
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John Pepper: It's been a great record, great tribute,
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John Pepper: to the individuals themselves, of course,
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John Pepper: but a tribute too to the culture of development.
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John Pepper: Mhmm.
9:39
John Pepper: And it's, I'm not saying it's totally unique.
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John Pepper: But when you know you're gonna promote from within ninety percent of the
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John Pepper: time,
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John Pepper: and you know you have to have the best people, then you darn well
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John Pepper: gotta be really good at recruiting.
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John Pepper: You've gotta be able to recruit and then you've got to be able to
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John Pepper: retain, if not all, because if you say many, they still
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John Pepper: went on to other careers.
10:04
John Pepper: Yeah.
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John Pepper: But you gotta retain many and you only do
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John Pepper: that really through growth, through development.
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John Pepper: Frankly, through an environment where people feel this is a place
10:18
John Pepper: that I feel is home.
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John Pepper: And where I can come to and feel there are many company of people
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John Pepper: who have very different opinions on different subject Mhmm.
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John Pepper: But who have commonality and certain values in terms of commitment
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John Pepper: to excellence, to each other, to integrity, to all these things that
10:35
John Pepper: are really timeless.
10:37
John Pepper: Timeless.
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John Pepper: Even as times change, AI comes in
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John Pepper: and...
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John Pepper: Yeah....
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John Pepper: When it changes, but some things are timeless
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John Pepper: in terms of the attributes, not just of a company, but any organization.
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John Pepper: You know, university, a hospital,
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John Pepper: they all require the same commitment to people, commitment to purpose,
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John Pepper: innovation change, and being on top of that change
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John Pepper: without ripping up the culture of the place.
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John Pepper: This is not easy.
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John Pepper: No.
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John Pepper: Because the times do demand change, and
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John Pepper: you need you need to be very agile.
11:21
Lisa Nichols: Wow.
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Lisa Nichols: You just...
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Lisa Nichols: You...
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Lisa Nichols: That was a power packed answer right there, John.
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Lisa Nichols: We get
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John Pepper: to I probably went on too long for
11:29
Lisa Nichols: No.
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Lisa Nichols: I mean, that was awesome.
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Lisa Nichols: Was...
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Lisa Nichols: Yes.
11:33
Lisa Nichols: That was awesome.
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Lisa Nichols: And you ended with agility, and, boy, that's that's a really
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Lisa Nichols: important one too because you've got to be agile because of the
11:43
Lisa Nichols: change that's that's happening.
11:45
Lisa Nichols: But let me ask you this.
11:46
Lisa Nichols: Your latest book is titled What Really Matters, and I need to get
11:50
Lisa Nichols: that one.
11:51
Lisa Nichols: I don't have that one yet, John.
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Lisa Nichols: But at eighty eight years old...
11:57
Lisa Nichols: Congratulations, by the way.
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Lisa Nichols: You know, that is just...
12:01
Lisa Nichols: That is a milestone for sure.
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Lisa Nichols: Eighty eight.
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Lisa Nichols: What really matters now that perhaps
12:10
Lisa Nichols: was different for you when you were forty.
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Lisa Nichols: So you've you've got almost nine decades of life.
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Lisa Nichols: What really matters now, John?
12:20
Lisa Nichols: What's really important?
12:24
John Pepper: Well, it's a lot of what I've talked about already.
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John Pepper: Mhmm.
12:27
John Pepper: What what matters now is a sense of purpose, is
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John Pepper: a commitment to people, is a view as I put it, everyone
12:35
John Pepper: counts.
12:36
John Pepper: That was a simple two words.
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John Pepper: They happen to sum up everything I've learned about human
12:43
John Pepper: relationships.
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John Pepper: And and and by everyone counts, that places a high demand
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John Pepper: on us.
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John Pepper: And it exists in our family, understanding our spouse,
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John Pepper: our children, and certainly people at work.
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John Pepper: What is it that they're really feeling?
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John Pepper: What is that they're saying?
13:00
John Pepper: What ideas do they have?
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John Pepper: But maybe the feelings part is the most important.
13:06
John Pepper: That you have to be prepared to make a big bet.
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John Pepper: That was clear to me when I was forty.
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John Pepper: They were very different bets then.
13:16
John Pepper: Mhmm.
13:17
John Pepper: I didn't have the opportunity to quote make a bet on being the
13:21
John Pepper: first into China or Eastern Europe.
13:26
John Pepper: That wasn't possible in terms of just geopolitical situation.
13:32
John Pepper: But I had but I had by the time I was forty, I was
13:36
John Pepper: in a position where I could make a, quote, big bet on the importance
13:40
John Pepper: of diversity and inclusion.
13:42
John Pepper: And and at that point in time,
13:45
John Pepper: we weren't very diverse, and we certainly wouldn't have regarded it
13:49
John Pepper: as a strategic imperative,
13:52
John Pepper: for the success of a company as we do today even as it's
13:56
John Pepper: under fire.
14:01
John Pepper: That wasn't clear to me when I was forty, has become clear.
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John Pepper: Another thing that's become clearer to me at this age, then
14:11
John Pepper: it wasn't forty, though I apprehended its essence, was
14:15
John Pepper: the importance of recognizing
14:18
John Pepper: the position that I was in at different points in time
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John Pepper: and the need to listen well, but be prepared to make the tough decision
14:27
John Pepper: when it needed to be made.
14:28
John Pepper: Mhmm.
14:30
John Pepper: And
14:31
John Pepper: this is something from Stephen Covey's book, The Seven Habits,
14:35
John Pepper: One of the Many Pearls of Wisdom in in
14:39
John Pepper: that book, which was having a quite balance between
14:44
John Pepper: courage and consideration.
14:46
John Pepper: Those were not exact words he used perhaps, but they certainly
14:51
John Pepper: define what he was talking about.
14:52
John Pepper: And that is having
14:56
John Pepper: the right balance between consideration, and that's getting input
15:01
John Pepper: from people genuinely through listening, but at the same time,
15:05
John Pepper: the courage, to make the decisive decision Mhmm.
15:09
John Pepper: To make the decisive action, that's called for.
15:13
John Pepper: I think the best person I worked for, and there there were many,
15:19
John Pepper: who typified that was the president of Yale with whom I worked,
15:24
John Pepper: Richard Levin.
15:25
John Pepper: And he'd do something that was a
15:28
John Pepper: wonderful practice.
15:30
John Pepper: He wouldn't have called it a practice.
15:31
John Pepper: It was just a way of doing business.
15:33
John Pepper: He he set his rocking chair, and we'd have four
15:37
John Pepper: or five of us responsible
15:40
John Pepper: offer different parts of the university.
15:42
John Pepper: And he'd asked for all our points of view, and we'd give them whether
15:45
John Pepper: it might be how do we globalize Yale to a greater extent
15:49
John Pepper: than it was in the early nineties and
15:54
John Pepper: early two thousands.
15:55
John Pepper: He'd take it all in, and then he would come back with an informed...
16:00
John Pepper: A decision based on his inner compass.
16:03
John Pepper: And, ultimately, you've gotta rely on your inner compass
16:07
John Pepper: After you've heard all the input, genuine input, people
16:12
John Pepper: know you're listening.
16:13
John Pepper: Make the decision.
16:14
John Pepper: Let people know why you made it this way and get together to carry
16:18
John Pepper: it out.
16:19
Lisa Nichols: I like that that balance between consideration and
16:23
Lisa Nichols: courage.
16:24
John Pepper: Yeah.
16:24
John Pepper: This was the difference between Yeah.
16:26
John Pepper: Where I was at forty Yes.
16:29
John Pepper: Have been nineteen seventy eight And today,
16:33
John Pepper: you know, and that would be key.
16:36
John Pepper: The other would be,
16:38
John Pepper: just an affirmation of family.
16:41
John Pepper: Mhmm.
16:41
John Pepper: The importance of family.
16:43
John Pepper: Of course, I knew it then.
16:45
John Pepper: By that point in time, we had four children.
16:49
John Pepper: The oldest was a teenager.
16:54
John Pepper: And,
16:56
John Pepper: well, not not really.
16:57
John Pepper: He was nine.
16:57
John Pepper: The oldest was nine, of the four.
17:01
John Pepper: And so I I understood that
17:05
John Pepper: and care deeply about them and my wife who made my wife my life.
17:09
John Pepper: And often say, Francie, she passed away in
17:13
John Pepper: March of last year twenty twenty five.
17:17
John Pepper: I often say she made me who I am.
17:20
John Pepper: How that sound...
17:20
John Pepper: They sound like over the turn in some BS.
17:24
John Pepper: And after all, I was twenty six when I married her.
17:28
John Pepper: It wasn't exactly like I had no views or hadn't been molded.
17:33
John Pepper: But she did make me who I am in the most important ways.
17:37
John Pepper: And when she agreed to marry me,
17:40
John Pepper: I knew nothing could go wrong.
17:42
John Pepper: Literally, that's how I felt.
17:45
John Pepper: And the greatest
17:47
John Pepper: people say, where did you get your confidence?
17:48
John Pepper: I got it from my mother.
17:51
John Pepper: She conveyed to me without saying it...
17:54
John Pepper: These words that I could do anything.
17:57
John Pepper: And she was damn well prepared to do everything to make that happen by
18:01
John Pepper: real financial sacrifice.
18:05
John Pepper: But the other was was Francine
18:09
John Pepper: because when she agreed to marry me, which had been a tough
18:13
John Pepper: three plus year pursuit, I've...
18:15
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
18:15
Lisa Nichols: You you...
18:16
Lisa Nichols: I ran somewhere, John, where you said it was the toughest sales,
18:20
Lisa Nichols: job of your life.
18:23
John Pepper: By far.
18:24
Lisa Nichols: Getting her to marry you.
18:26
John Pepper: She was very independent.
18:27
John Pepper: We I'm sure you're independent.
18:30
John Pepper: And
18:31
Lisa Nichols: and...
18:31
Lisa Nichols: Just a little bit.
18:32
John Pepper: And and she was extremely independent from the youngest of ages.
18:37
John Pepper: And, and she didn't wanna get married too early.
18:40
John Pepper: She wanted to make sure she had had a career.
18:43
John Pepper: And Right.
18:44
John Pepper: Enough on that.
18:45
John Pepper: It...
18:46
John Pepper: This is one way maybe from the difference between forty to eighty eight.
18:50
John Pepper: But but there was a much deepening appreciation
18:54
John Pepper: over that period of time of the power of relationships.
18:58
John Pepper: Relationships are what makes things happen.
19:03
John Pepper: It work,
19:04
John Pepper: working with customers, anywhere.
19:07
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
19:08
John Pepper: Deeply trust based relationships, and they don't happen overnight.
19:13
John Pepper: But nor do they take years to develop a simple hour long conversation
19:18
John Pepper: with someone if it's an open one where you're really interested in the other
19:22
John Pepper: person, and they were interested in you, can tell
19:27
John Pepper: a big part of a life story.
19:29
John Pepper: And life stories,
19:31
John Pepper: they're...
19:32
John Pepper: At least for me, they're inspiring.
19:34
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
19:35
John Pepper: Other people's life stories are inspiring.
19:38
John Pepper: They're also informing about how you're gonna be effective.
19:41
John Pepper: Mhmm.
19:42
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
19:43
Lisa Nichols: For sure.
19:44
Lisa Nichols: Well, I'm so glad you went there with Francie because I was gonna
19:48
Lisa Nichols: ask you I was gonna ask you, looking back, what is the decision that
19:51
Lisa Nichols: changed everything?
19:53
Lisa Nichols: And in my mind, I'm thinking marrying Francie.
19:58
Lisa Nichols: Right.
19:59
Lisa Nichols: Because she...
20:00
Lisa Nichols: I know what an imp...
20:01
Lisa Nichols: What a remarkable, remarkable woman.
20:04
Lisa Nichols: She she was a remarkable woman, did a lot of,
20:09
Lisa Nichols: wonderful, philanthropic work and just,
20:13
Lisa Nichols: an incredible person.
20:15
Lisa Nichols: But, you know, you...
20:16
Lisa Nichols: You've touched on your family a little bit.
20:19
Lisa Nichols: And, John, we'll get into this, but you were
20:23
Lisa Nichols: so kind and sent me your book, a hundred
20:27
Lisa Nichols: books that shaped my life.
20:30
Lisa Nichols: And I love this, Reflections on a lifetime of reading.
20:35
Lisa Nichols: And I think your son, John, is the one that wrote your
20:39
Lisa Nichols: Ford, I believe.
20:42
John Pepper: That's true.
20:43
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
20:44
Lisa Nichols: And that was so, special getting to
20:48
Lisa Nichols: read his reflections about you.
20:50
Lisa Nichols: But, you know, I read somewhere where you said,
20:55
Lisa Nichols: of course, you you said, you know, you have four adult children and they're
20:59
Lisa Nichols: all married and maybe ten grandchildren, maybe a couple in the oven now.
21:03
Lisa Nichols: I don't know.
21:04
Lisa Nichols: But you said your family was a source of your energy, stability,
21:08
Lisa Nichols: and your strength.
21:11
John Pepper: It's true.
21:12
John Pepper: That's as it as simply and truly as I can.
21:15
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
21:16
John Pepper: They were.
21:19
John Pepper: Church too.
21:21
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
21:21
Lisa Nichols: God?
21:23
John Pepper: Church was too, is meant a great deal.
21:26
John Pepper: But, no, in terms of just vitality, energy,
21:31
John Pepper: learning, that was the family.
21:33
John Pepper: It was very fortunate.
21:35
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
21:35
Lisa Nichols: And what a blessing.
21:37
Lisa Nichols: What a blessing, John.
21:41
Lisa Nichols: Well, let me ask you this, and you've already talked about the everyone that
21:44
Lisa Nichols: counts.
21:45
Lisa Nichols: I love that.
21:45
Lisa Nichols: You you say that often, everyone counts.
21:49
Lisa Nichols: But, you know, you led through some really enormous,
21:53
Lisa Nichols: enormous changes at P and G.
21:57
Lisa Nichols: And, I...
21:58
Lisa Nichols: I'm sure our listeners all know, but, you know, you just think of, like,
22:01
Lisa Nichols: Crest toothpaste.
22:02
Lisa Nichols: You think of Tide.
22:03
Lisa Nichols: You think of Pampers.
22:05
Lisa Nichols: I mean, there are so many products that are
22:09
Lisa Nichols: P and G, you know, manufactured by P and G.
22:15
Lisa Nichols: You know, how do leaders know you've led through a tremendous
22:19
Lisa Nichols: change, and then there's change happening still?
22:22
Lisa Nichols: I mean, you already mentioned AI.
22:23
Lisa Nichols: We've got quantum computing coming on and and all of this.
22:27
Lisa Nichols: How do leaders know what should change and what should never change, John?
22:33
John Pepper: Well, what should never change, I think, are the values that
22:37
John Pepper: you hold dear.
22:38
John Pepper: Each person
22:40
John Pepper: will define them differently Mhmm.
22:43
John Pepper: In some slight way, I think.
22:44
John Pepper: But most will agree on the fundamentals and those
22:48
John Pepper: being
22:50
John Pepper: that were committed really to servant leadership to purpose.
22:55
John Pepper: Every job I went into, I aimed to develop
23:00
John Pepper: an organization, maybe an organization structure, but help the development
23:04
John Pepper: of people that would allow it to be better tomorrow and
23:08
John Pepper: sustain after I left.
23:10
John Pepper: Sustaining something is key.
23:13
John Pepper: Procter and Gamble was formed in eighteen thirty seven.
23:17
John Pepper: Many...
23:18
John Pepper: The great majority of companies formed within twenty, thirty years of
23:23
John Pepper: of Procter and Gamble are gone or they have totally changed.
23:26
John Pepper: Company like General Electric is a good company, totally different.
23:31
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
23:31
John Pepper: A company like Eastman Kodak is gone.
23:34
John Pepper: Sears and Roebuck, which is leader, is gone.
23:38
John Pepper: Also sustaining
23:40
John Pepper: sustaining this requires, I think, a sense of purpose.
23:44
John Pepper: You can only...
23:46
John Pepper: One thing that would make a great institution
23:49
John Pepper: to fail is if it would no longer be able to attract and retain
23:53
John Pepper: the best people.
23:56
John Pepper: And people asking, what could cause Procter and Gamble to fail?
24:00
John Pepper: Could it be we lose leadership for a time on a couple of brands?
24:04
John Pepper: That's a terrible bad.
24:06
John Pepper: We don't like that, but that would not cause P and T to fail.
24:09
John Pepper: Yeah.
24:09
John Pepper: What would cause it to fail is if young people graduating in universities,
24:14
John Pepper: business schools wouldn't come.
24:16
John Pepper: Now why would they choose not to come?
24:18
John Pepper: They've been doing it all this time.
24:20
John Pepper: And I think it would be one, they didn't see in this company a
24:24
John Pepper: sense of purpose.
24:25
John Pepper: They felt it was worth them really, perhaps, putting a career
24:29
John Pepper: against.
24:30
John Pepper: Two, they would not see it as a winning organization.
24:34
John Pepper: People generally wanna join an organization that's winning.
24:37
John Pepper: They can do better tomorrow than it is today.
24:39
Lisa Nichols: Right.
24:40
John Pepper: They might not join join if if they felt the climate wasn't
24:45
John Pepper: welcoming of diverse people for a long while.
24:49
John Pepper: Women coming into management in P and G or other company would wonder, can
24:53
John Pepper: I make it?
24:54
John Pepper: Because women weren't at higher levels.
24:56
John Pepper: We still have this issue with African Americans and minorities.
25:01
John Pepper: And yet, there's a huge, huge, wonderful talent
25:05
John Pepper: base.
25:06
John Pepper: So you have to have an environment which is attractive and then
25:10
John Pepper: which is nourishing, with people being part of, feel
25:14
John Pepper: they can grow.
25:16
John Pepper: And they gotta have values that they can take home to their dinner
25:20
John Pepper: table.
25:21
John Pepper: And Mhmm.
25:23
John Pepper: That they're asked by, so what should your company do?
25:26
John Pepper: You know, what what do you stand for?
25:29
John Pepper: That you could talk about that with a sense of pride.
25:33
John Pepper: Not perfection, but a sense of pride in what's doing and
25:37
John Pepper: where we're
25:39
John Pepper: headed.
25:40
John Pepper: Now what's changed,
25:42
John Pepper: so much is pace of change itself, I guess, I'd start with.
25:46
John Pepper: Mhmm.
25:47
John Pepper: We we used we used to look at making upgrades on tide, detergent,
25:52
John Pepper: the leer, still today by a mile.
25:55
John Pepper: And and we might look at making a major change there every
26:00
John Pepper: two years, maybe three.
26:02
John Pepper: And that was enough, to stay ahead offering
26:06
John Pepper: consumers better products.
26:07
John Pepper: It's not anymore.
26:10
John Pepper: Having said that, it's terribly important to recognize what are
26:14
John Pepper: major discontinuities.
26:17
John Pepper: Because along the way, there are improvements one makes, but then you you
26:21
John Pepper: come into a true discontinuity, usually meaning big investment,
26:26
John Pepper: important risk.
26:29
John Pepper: And it's sensing these discontinuities
26:32
John Pepper: in technological platforms, but also organizational
26:36
John Pepper: structures.
26:37
John Pepper: For example,
26:38
John Pepper: it became clear in the
26:41
John Pepper: late nineteen seventies that we were gonna have to operate on a very different
26:46
John Pepper: basis within Procter and Gamble and other companies.
26:49
John Pepper: Until then, we were in different countries, and each country had its
26:53
John Pepper: own manufacturing and its own purchasing and probably
26:57
John Pepper: its own HR.
26:59
John Pepper: But in Europe, for example, we had nine different subsidiaries
27:04
John Pepper: in Western Europe, and they rarely communicated.
27:06
John Pepper: Well, this is...
27:07
John Pepper: This...
27:08
John Pepper: The time where this was right was gone.
27:11
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
27:11
John Pepper: We needed to operate across Europe.
27:13
John Pepper: And then next, we needed to operate globally.
27:17
John Pepper: And the...
27:18
John Pepper: This is...
27:18
John Pepper: Was a major, major wrenching change in terms of the jobs
27:22
John Pepper: people did, the responsibilities they held, and so on.
27:27
John Pepper: So what's changed and it's changing today will continue.
27:31
John Pepper: How do you organize?
27:33
John Pepper: How do you structure the business?
27:36
John Pepper: One of our CEOs going well back before your time, Neil McElroy, he
27:40
John Pepper: said, we'll go through a lot of changes
27:43
John Pepper: in organization.
27:44
John Pepper: And he said, there are only two templates
27:47
John Pepper: that matter in assessing whether it's the right change.
27:51
John Pepper: One, he said, is whether it will allow us to provide
27:55
John Pepper: products to consumers that are...
27:57
John Pepper: What meet their needs and are the best around.
28:01
John Pepper: And the second, he said, is that whatever it is, it has to provide
28:05
John Pepper: a space for careers for young men and women.
28:10
John Pepper: He didn't mention at that time, or I'm sure he would today,
28:14
John Pepper: it has to be scaled correctly,
28:17
John Pepper: for efficiency and speed for efficiency and
28:21
John Pepper: speed.
28:22
John Pepper: Mhmm.
28:25
John Pepper: That was not...
28:26
John Pepper: I mean, that was there then, but it's taken on a whole new
28:30
Lisa Nichols: Whole new world.
28:31
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
28:32
Lisa Nichols: The other thing technology.
28:34
John Pepper: The other thing he would say today, and he was talking in the fifties,
28:39
John Pepper: was whatever you do, you've got to have an environment that attracts
28:44
John Pepper: people of all ethnicities
28:48
John Pepper: and races and genders.
28:50
John Pepper: When I joined Procter and Gamble, the top thirteen people were
28:54
John Pepper: all men,
28:56
John Pepper: and there was only one in all were US except we allowed one
29:00
John Pepper: Canadian,
29:02
John Pepper: to be part of the thirteen.
29:04
John Pepper: Today, the great majority of the top leadership of Procter and Gamble are non
29:08
John Pepper: US citizens.
29:10
John Pepper: And the CEO of Procter and Gamble, Suresh, came from
29:14
John Pepper: India.
29:15
John Pepper: The head of our biggest business unit came from India.
29:19
John Pepper: And these are two examples of people who grew up having joined
29:23
John Pepper: Procter and Gamble in India
29:26
John Pepper: in about nineteen ninety, and here they are.
29:30
John Pepper: And if you had not had people along the way who kept focused on
29:34
John Pepper: their developing,
29:36
John Pepper: put them in the right position, moving them into more responsibility, that wouldn't
29:40
John Pepper: happen.
29:41
John Pepper: That's a that's a big change.
29:43
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
29:44
Lisa Nichols: For sure.
29:45
Lisa Nichols: Well, John, I have got pages and pages and pages of
29:49
Lisa Nichols: notes,
29:52
Lisa Nichols: but we do...
29:53
Lisa Nichols: That I still wanna get through.
29:54
Lisa Nichols: You just got...
29:55
Lisa Nichols: It's gonna be hard to capture you in one podcast episode, I think, because
29:59
Lisa Nichols: you...
30:00
Lisa Nichols: There's so much to you.
30:01
Lisa Nichols: But we do need to take a quick break, and then we'll be right
30:04
Lisa Nichols: back on the Something Extra podcast with John Pepper.
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30:38
Lisa Nichols: Welcome back, everyone, to the Something Extra podcast with John Pepper.
30:42
Lisa Nichols: Boy, I I hope...
30:45
Lisa Nichols: If you are listening, I hope you have your notebook and your pen out
30:48
Lisa Nichols: because John is just downloading such amazing, incredible
30:52
Lisa Nichols: wisdom.
30:52
Lisa Nichols: This is like a mini MBA here that we're going through
30:56
Lisa Nichols: today with one of the, or one of the world's greatest
31:01
Lisa Nichols: leaders here, John Pepper.
31:03
Lisa Nichols: But, John, I wanna talk about this.
31:05
Lisa Nichols: So you...
31:07
Lisa Nichols: I read where you have kept a journal for more than forty
31:11
Lisa Nichols: years now.
31:13
Lisa Nichols: Tell our listeners why, and what has this practice
31:17
Lisa Nichols: really taught you?
31:20
John Pepper: Well, at least I started, you're right, in nineteen
31:24
John Pepper: eighty one, so over forty years.
31:28
John Pepper: And
31:30
John Pepper: I started because I was going through some great experiences that I didn't wanna
31:34
John Pepper: lose.
31:36
John Pepper: At the time I was reading Europe.
31:41
John Pepper: But very quickly, I'd say maybe in two or three years, I started to
31:45
John Pepper: really do it with a thought that I could record the most important learnings
31:50
John Pepper: I had,
31:53
John Pepper: good and bad.
31:55
John Pepper: And I may be just a week
31:59
John Pepper: or a memory than most, but it enabled me to go back and still
32:02
John Pepper: does today,
32:05
John Pepper: to to read about these learnings.
32:08
John Pepper: Mhmm.
32:09
John Pepper: I've also included a lot of reflections on other authors,
32:15
John Pepper: writers who've had influence on me philosophically, if you will,
32:19
John Pepper: in terms of principle, a lot of reflections on my family.
32:24
John Pepper: I find in writing them down, I'm just...
32:26
John Pepper: They're etching into my mind.
32:28
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
32:29
John Pepper: They're etching into my mind.
32:30
John Pepper: They take on an added importance and, well,
32:34
John Pepper: they're recoverable.
32:37
John Pepper: In recent years, I've also done it with photographs, which, again,
32:41
John Pepper: add to the realism of them.
32:44
John Pepper: They've been very important to me.
32:46
John Pepper: My wife, my late wife, Francie, also did a lot of journaling.
32:51
John Pepper: It's fascinating for me to go back, through these journals.
32:55
John Pepper: I had not been through them all.
32:57
John Pepper: She pointed me to a couple.
32:59
John Pepper: I don't think she'd mind at all that I've looking at her journals,
33:03
John Pepper: but I'm really expanding my understanding of her life
33:08
John Pepper: and are together through,
33:11
John Pepper: through these journals.
33:13
John Pepper: Yeah.
33:13
John Pepper: They've been important to me.
33:14
John Pepper: They've been very important to my learning, to my memory, to
33:18
John Pepper: my commitment on what I'll do next.
33:20
John Pepper: I always put in my journals at the end of each year what I
33:24
John Pepper: thought were the principal things that happened, what are the most important, and I
33:28
John Pepper: always write down what are my intentions and goals.
33:32
Lisa Nichols: For the new year?
33:33
John Pepper: For the new year in terms of my family, in terms of business, in
33:37
John Pepper: terms of the, other organizations I've been
33:41
John Pepper: blessed to be part of.
33:43
John Pepper: I put them down and and, you know, not...
33:46
John Pepper: It's not a lot.
33:47
John Pepper: It's one page and includes them all.
33:49
John Pepper: But it's it's helpful, and I'm sure it is to many other people in
33:53
John Pepper: whatever way they do it, just to order my priorities.
33:56
John Pepper: Mhmm.
33:57
John Pepper: Frankly, do my best to never forget that number
34:01
John Pepper: one is family.
34:03
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
34:04
John Pepper: Is number one...
34:04
John Pepper: Maybe number one, two, and three, and then we move on because as...
34:09
John Pepper: You know, I've gone on in life and you you know this already,
34:13
John Pepper: but maybe it becomes more embedded as you get older.
34:16
John Pepper: You come to realize that what do you leave behind in this
34:20
John Pepper: world?
34:21
John Pepper: You know, we don't know how long we're gonna be here.
34:23
John Pepper: It's an indefinite duration.
34:26
John Pepper: Some people
34:28
John Pepper: die...
34:28
John Pepper: Most die younger than I do, but the thing you were gonna leave behind
34:33
John Pepper: is a difference you've made on other people.
34:35
Lisa Nichols: That's right.
34:36
John Pepper: That's it.
34:37
Lisa Nichols: That's it.
34:38
Lisa Nichols: That's it.
34:39
John Pepper: Deals.
34:39
John Pepper: Awards, things you've written in text, like, maybe somebody over
34:43
John Pepper: here.
34:43
John Pepper: That's fine.
34:44
John Pepper: But the main thing is whatever you left behind in terms of an impact
34:49
John Pepper: on other people and not so much by
34:53
John Pepper: what you've said.
34:56
John Pepper: But but by what you've done, yes, but above all, by how you've made
35:00
John Pepper: them feel.
35:02
Lisa Nichols: John, that's beautiful.
35:04
Lisa Nichols: So true.
35:05
John Pepper: It is true.
35:07
John Pepper: It is how you made them feel, and that's a self reflection, of course,
35:10
John Pepper: on what's made a difference in my life.
35:12
John Pepper: It's...
35:13
John Pepper: Yeah.
35:13
John Pepper: I've learned from people.
35:15
John Pepper: They're printing classes, content, schools.
35:20
John Pepper: But that...
35:20
John Pepper: The main thing isn't that.
35:21
John Pepper: It's it's how they made me feel.
35:23
John Pepper: They've listened to me.
35:24
John Pepper: They cared about me.
35:25
John Pepper: They guided me.
35:27
John Pepper: And, it's great opportunity we have.
35:30
John Pepper: Yeah.
35:30
John Pepper: I wake up every morning to this day, and I think, what
35:34
John Pepper: can I do today that'll make some person's life maybe
35:39
John Pepper: a tiny bit better?
35:40
John Pepper: And,
35:42
John Pepper: I think that's a great calling.
35:45
Lisa Nichols: I could not agree more.
35:47
Lisa Nichols: I love I love that.
35:49
Lisa Nichols: You know, I I once heard something like, legacy inheritance
35:53
Lisa Nichols: is not what you leave for someone.
35:55
Lisa Nichols: It's what you leave in them.
35:58
Lisa Nichols: That's beautiful.
35:59
Lisa Nichols: And I just...
36:00
Lisa Nichols: I love that too.
36:01
Lisa Nichols: But,
36:02
John Pepper: That's beautiful.
36:03
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
36:03
Lisa Nichols: Well, I wanna talk to you about this, and I absolutely
36:09
Lisa Nichols: love this.
36:09
Lisa Nichols: And I think about I think about the practice of gratitude.
36:14
Lisa Nichols: But you keep a list,
36:18
Lisa Nichols: that's called if it weren't for them.
36:22
John Pepper: Yes.
36:23
Lisa Nichols: Tell us about this list.
36:26
John Pepper: Well, it'd be a longer list today.
36:28
John Pepper: I put it together in writing,
36:31
John Pepper: probably twelve twelve, fifteen years ago, and I thought,
36:35
John Pepper: yeah, that...
36:36
John Pepper: That's a thought if it weren't for them.
36:38
John Pepper: So I took about a half an hour to write down the people if
36:42
John Pepper: it weren't for them.
36:44
John Pepper: And these were individuals whose lives as they intersected
36:48
John Pepper: with mine made my life different than it otherwise Yes.
36:52
John Pepper: Then.
36:52
John Pepper: Yeah.
36:53
John Pepper: So last for most of it, certainly went back to my parents, above all
36:56
John Pepper: my mother.
36:58
John Pepper: Went back to a teacher in high school
37:02
John Pepper: who didn't let me go home for Thanksgiving.
37:06
John Pepper: And I told him what...
37:08
John Pepper: Why is that, father?
37:09
John Pepper: He said, because your room is messy and you're not doing well enough in
37:13
John Pepper: mass.
37:13
John Pepper: And I told him, with all due respect, father, you post the grades
37:17
John Pepper: in mass, and I can see I'm number one.
37:20
John Pepper: And he said, well, I know you're...
37:21
John Pepper: I know what your grade is.
37:22
John Pepper: I do the grades, but you're not doing well enough.
37:25
John Pepper: You can do better.
37:26
John Pepper: You're gonna stay here, and you're gonna learn more.
37:28
Lisa Nichols: Wow.
37:30
John Pepper: I don't have any idea what we learn more, whatever we learn more,
37:34
John Pepper: but I do learn that he expressed a belief in
37:38
John Pepper: me being able to be more than I was.
37:40
Lisa Nichols: To be more than you were.
37:41
Lisa Nichols: Oh,
37:42
John Pepper: gosh.
37:43
John Pepper: That's what it was.
37:44
John Pepper: And then I had that happen in the navy when they put me
37:48
John Pepper: in charge of outfitting PT boats for Vietnam, which was the best
37:52
John Pepper: most unlikely assignment to give a history major who could
37:56
John Pepper: do...
37:56
John Pepper: Couldn't even do a light...
37:57
John Pepper: Put a light bulb in.
38:00
John Pepper: I mean, of course, above all, yep, my wife
38:05
John Pepper: wife agreed to marry me.
38:07
John Pepper: But at P and G, it went on, and the person had only been
38:11
John Pepper: there about a year, and he told...
38:14
John Pepper: No.
38:14
John Pepper: We've been married a year.
38:16
John Pepper: And he told my wife once he said, you know, someday
38:20
John Pepper: may...
38:20
John Pepper: We all may be working for your husband.
38:23
John Pepper: Well, this was an incredible statement because at this point, I
38:27
John Pepper: wouldn't have been surprised if they told me I should move on and become
38:30
John Pepper: a history major.
38:34
John Pepper: But this expression
38:37
John Pepper: of...
38:37
John Pepper: And I I need to go on and do the freedom of this here.
38:40
John Pepper: But this expression, if it weren't for them Mhmm.
38:43
John Pepper: If it weren't for them, and we all have that.
38:46
John Pepper: Yes.
38:46
John Pepper: And if I could...
38:48
John Pepper: I wish I could say thank you even more.
38:50
John Pepper: Don't say father Andrew or the person on the
38:54
John Pepper: on the ship who allowed me to be the officer of the deck
38:58
John Pepper: of this three hundred sailor crew when I was twenty one.
39:02
John Pepper: And my wife thought he was nuts because I couldn't drive a boat well
39:06
John Pepper: up in Canada.
39:07
John Pepper: But
39:12
John Pepper: but you don't know you're doing this.
39:14
John Pepper: I think the really interesting thing for young people...
39:17
John Pepper: Other people is you're you're probably doing this whether you know it
39:21
John Pepper: or not.
39:22
John Pepper: Mhmm.
39:22
John Pepper: A lot of this is not intentional.
39:24
John Pepper: Like, okay.
39:25
John Pepper: I'm gonna make sure I'm in his list of of order
39:29
John Pepper: for them.
39:29
John Pepper: That that doesn't happen.
39:31
John Pepper: It doesn't happen that way.
39:32
John Pepper: I mean, you can be intentional about trying to help another person, but
39:36
John Pepper: these moments of expressing this confidence
39:40
John Pepper: often will come in the most candid offhand but meaningful
39:44
John Pepper: way.
39:47
John Pepper: Fifteen years before I became CEO of P and G, the then CEO
39:52
John Pepper: walked past me.
39:53
John Pepper: This is fifteen years before.
39:56
John Pepper: And he said, John, you better take good care of yourself.
40:00
John Pepper: Someday, you may be in my seat.
40:03
John Pepper: And,
40:04
Lisa Nichols: that Wow.
40:05
John Pepper: You know, maybe some people don't need it.
40:09
John Pepper: Steve Jobs, he wouldn't...
40:11
John Pepper: Probably, he don't need any encouragement.
40:13
John Pepper: Winston Churchill probably didn't need a bit of encouragement from anybody.
40:17
John Pepper: But most people do, including people who feel don't
40:22
John Pepper: need it.
40:24
John Pepper: Mhmm.
40:24
Lisa Nichols: We
40:24
John Pepper: as human beings need reinforcement, need encouragement.
40:28
John Pepper: It has to be genuine.
40:30
Lisa Nichols: It's not
40:30
John Pepper: a prim, flam, or just throw it off.
40:33
John Pepper: It has to be trust conveyed...
40:37
John Pepper: Confidence conveyed.
40:39
Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
40:40
Lisa Nichols: Well, John, wow.
40:42
Lisa Nichols: That is, oof, that is, so much gold
40:46
Lisa Nichols: right there.
40:47
Lisa Nichols: And I'm just thinking
40:50
Lisa Nichols: we we need that.
40:51
Lisa Nichols: We've had people in our life that have done that for us.
40:54
Lisa Nichols: I'm just thinking about, you know, both the journaling and
40:58
Lisa Nichols: and creating this list if it weren't for them.
41:02
Lisa Nichols: Really, it it forces us to slow down.
41:06
Lisa Nichols: And sometimes I think our life can just get so much on autopilot
41:11
Lisa Nichols: that we just keep going to the next thing.
41:13
Lisa Nichols: But that's why I love the journaling so much because it really does force
41:18
Lisa Nichols: you to sit and reflect,
41:21
Lisa Nichols: on the learnings and then just the being grateful.
41:26
Lisa Nichols: And I'm thinking as you're talking if it weren't for them,
41:30
Lisa Nichols: the words of encouragement and things like that, it just inspires me to make
41:34
Lisa Nichols: sure that I am looking for those opportunities
41:38
Lisa Nichols: to do that for somebody else.
41:40
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
41:40
Lisa Nichols: I've definitely had people doing that for me, but it it it
41:45
Lisa Nichols: really makes me think and inspires me to say, be intentional
41:49
Lisa Nichols: about looking.
41:50
Lisa Nichols: And as you said, it has to be genuine.
41:53
Lisa Nichols: Right?
41:53
Lisa Nichols: But, but it's slowing down enough to even notice,
41:59
Lisa Nichols: maybe something in another person.
42:02
Lisa Nichols: What I call it, the something extra.
42:04
Lisa Nichols: You know?
42:04
Lisa Nichols: I mean, slowing down long enough to notice that something extra in someone
42:08
Lisa Nichols: else and calling that out, because you just never know how those words...
42:12
Lisa Nichols: Words matter, and, they have tremendous
42:17
Lisa Nichols: impact.
42:17
Lisa Nichols: But, you know, it's it's like you said, it's not just the words, but
42:21
Lisa Nichols: it's, like, how you make the people feel when they're in your presence.
42:25
Lisa Nichols: So I I just love everything that you have said.
42:28
Lisa Nichols: So good.
42:31
Lisa Nichols: Let me ask you this.
42:33
Lisa Nichols: You know, what...
42:34
Lisa Nichols: What's been your proudest moment or moments, John,
42:38
Lisa Nichols: as a husband, father, grandfather?
42:41
Lisa Nichols: And, again, do you do you have ten grandchildren still, or do you have
42:45
Lisa Nichols: a few in the oven?
42:47
John Pepper: No.
42:49
John Pepper: None in the oven or any any more likely to be in the oven.
42:52
John Pepper: We have
42:54
John Pepper: we have ten grandchildren, one of whom, twenty two year old, is actually
42:59
John Pepper: living with me with her boyfriend.
43:02
John Pepper: They both have jobs.
43:03
John Pepper: They just came from Utah.
43:05
John Pepper: No.
43:05
John Pepper: They're...
43:06
John Pepper: None in the oven have ten.
43:09
John Pepper: And
43:10
Lisa Nichols: What influence do you think grandparents can have on grandchildren?
43:13
Lisa Nichols: I mean, you've got a grand, you know, daughter that is living
43:18
Lisa Nichols: with you right now.
43:18
Lisa Nichols: What a blessing that is.
43:21
John Pepper: Well, I think the proudest moment is going back to your question.
43:25
John Pepper: So I reflect on and have have revolved around family.
43:29
John Pepper: I've been very proud to see people in P and G who I know
43:33
John Pepper: and and treasure move ahead.
43:36
John Pepper: And I've seen...
43:37
John Pepper: And I'm proud of P and G teams overcoming great adversity.
43:41
Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
43:42
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
43:42
John Pepper: And and still today, for example, in Russia and Ukraine.
43:47
John Pepper: But the proudest moments have clearly been around my family,
43:51
John Pepper: and it's been the
43:54
John Pepper: graduation
43:56
John Pepper: of my four children and their marriages.
43:59
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
44:00
John Pepper: Those those have been those have been the proudest.
44:05
John Pepper: I've been extremely proud to see Francie, a late wife, received
44:09
John Pepper: the recognition she has from the YWCA and
44:13
John Pepper: so many other organizations.
44:15
John Pepper: Proud of her,
44:17
John Pepper: what...
44:18
John Pepper: For what she's done in receiving them.
44:20
John Pepper: Extremely proud.
44:22
John Pepper: And now with ten grandchildren, well, there's lots to be proud of there.
44:26
John Pepper: My, my one granddaughter just
44:30
John Pepper: got admitted to Dartmouth this week.
44:34
John Pepper: LaCroix with Cross.
44:35
John Pepper: Her sister's already there.
44:37
John Pepper: I'm proud of that.
44:38
John Pepper: Her...
44:38
John Pepper: Yeah.
44:39
John Pepper: There's so much pride in the grandchildren, what they're doing.
44:42
John Pepper: As to the influence on them, I think it's fair to say my wife,
44:46
John Pepper: my late wife, Francie, she would have had more influence on them than I
44:50
John Pepper: did.
44:51
John Pepper: They just huddled around her looking at her
44:55
John Pepper: pictures, and she tells stories, story after story,
45:00
John Pepper: pictures.
45:02
John Pepper: But you can have an influence.
45:04
John Pepper: And I'm so happy each of them had gotten old
45:08
John Pepper: enough before she passed away.
45:10
John Pepper: The youngest, when she passed away, was was nine.
45:14
John Pepper: They've all got to know her.
45:16
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
45:16
Lisa Nichols: It's so important.
45:17
John Pepper: And that makes me really, really happy.
45:20
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
45:22
John Pepper: And and I can see in my twenty two year old granddaughter, I
45:26
John Pepper: see my wife in her in many ways, in her care for people.
45:31
John Pepper: She's in social service work.
45:34
John Pepper: And, so, yes, there's an influence.
45:37
John Pepper: But I I think it has to come through these...
45:40
John Pepper: Just the time together, the association.
45:43
John Pepper: It it won't come because of preaching to them or doing anything
45:48
John Pepper: that is close to preaching.
45:50
John Pepper: It's they're observing how you live, how you make choices,
45:54
John Pepper: what you believe in, what you do, and they'll
45:58
John Pepper: pick up things I found that you don't know they're picking up.
46:01
John Pepper: They're
46:03
Lisa Nichols: But they're watching.
46:04
John Pepper: They're they're watching.
46:05
John Pepper: They're watching.
46:06
John Pepper: They're absorbing.
46:07
John Pepper: Mhmm.
46:09
John Pepper: And and and that's great.
46:12
John Pepper: That's a great opportunity.
46:14
Lisa Nichols: Well, what do you hope your grandchildren remember most about you?
46:17
Lisa Nichols: I know you're that, you know, you're,
46:21
Lisa Nichols: giving so much honor to Francie, but I know that they...
46:25
Lisa Nichols: That you're an influence too, John, on their lives.
46:27
Lisa Nichols: What do you hope that they remember about you?
46:29
Lisa Nichols: And then what advice would you leave with them?
46:33
John Pepper: Well, I'll have the advice for them.
46:36
John Pepper: It would be to go for whatever they believe in.
46:40
John Pepper: Just...
46:40
John Pepper: And don't ever ever think you can't do it.
46:45
John Pepper: Maybe you'll find you can't and and you'll learn from that.
46:48
John Pepper: Mhmm.
46:49
John Pepper: The thing you'll always regret is not having gone for the big thing
46:53
John Pepper: that you wanted that maybe you felt was out of reach.
46:57
John Pepper: And I talked I talked that with my grandkids,
47:01
John Pepper: kids, Francie did, and and it came down to what colleges you go
47:05
John Pepper: after, what job you go into, etcetera.
47:08
John Pepper: So go for what you believe in and,
47:12
John Pepper: and just go do it.
47:15
John Pepper: Yes.
47:15
John Pepper: After the advice, I was actually asked that question
47:20
John Pepper: specifically when I was
47:23
John Pepper: in, of all places, Bucharest,
47:27
John Pepper: in Romania.
47:27
John Pepper: And I was there to introduce a book translation into
47:31
John Pepper: Romanian of a book I've written.
47:34
John Pepper: And I was talking to business groups, and I was talking to college groups.
47:38
John Pepper: And I was talking to
47:41
John Pepper: a college university group, and and I gave my talk,
47:45
John Pepper: whatever it was, and then asked for questions.
47:48
John Pepper: And
47:50
John Pepper: a woman stood up, and she was holding a paper napkin.
47:55
John Pepper: And she said, mister Pepper, she said, if all you had was a paper
47:59
John Pepper: napkin, and she described it.
48:00
John Pepper: There it is.
48:03
John Pepper: And you were asked to write on that napkin what you would want your
48:06
John Pepper: grandchildren to remember.
48:08
John Pepper: Oh, what would you write?
48:10
John Pepper: Well, this is a heck of a question.
48:15
Lisa Nichols: On the little napkin.
48:17
John Pepper: Right.
48:17
John Pepper: I said there are three...
48:19
John Pepper: But the answer came to my mind very quickly.
48:21
John Pepper: I said there's there's three things I write.
48:25
John Pepper: The first is believe in yourself.
48:28
John Pepper: Believe in yourself.
48:29
John Pepper: Believe in your best self.
48:32
John Pepper: Second, do what you think is right.
48:35
John Pepper: No matter what, do what you think is right.
48:39
John Pepper: And the third, I said is love people.
48:43
John Pepper: And the first two, I don't think would have come as a surprise.
48:47
John Pepper: Mhmm.
48:49
John Pepper: But the third one might have coming from a business person.
48:53
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
48:55
John Pepper: I expanded on those those three things a little bit there.
48:58
John Pepper: I expanded on it in a graduation talk I gave to
49:04
John Pepper: local high school a couple years later.
49:08
John Pepper: And I did expand on it, and I won't take a lot of time
49:11
John Pepper: expanding out of here, but I'm believing in yourself.
49:14
John Pepper: I did emphasize believe in yourself, your best self, and you won't be
49:18
John Pepper: your best self every day.
49:20
John Pepper: Nobody is.
49:21
John Pepper: No.
49:23
John Pepper: But I said to believe in yourself and believe your best self, you've got
49:26
John Pepper: to be authentic.
49:28
John Pepper: You have to be yourself.
49:30
John Pepper: And you can't let, I'm in this group.
49:33
John Pepper: I gotta do this.
49:34
John Pepper: I gotta put on this mantle.
49:36
John Pepper: I'm kind of out of place.
49:38
John Pepper: You cannot...
49:39
John Pepper: You've gotta be mindful of that, but you cannot let it take away from
49:43
John Pepper: expressing who you are, what you believe in an authentic way.
49:52
John Pepper: Do the right thing.
49:54
John Pepper: As I said, probably doesn't need a lot of embellishment, but it can be
49:57
John Pepper: damn hard.
49:59
John Pepper: Because there are some very close calls we will make.
50:04
John Pepper: The toughest challenges...
50:05
John Pepper: I didn't probably say this in the graduation talk.
50:08
John Pepper: I faced were not about a business issue.
50:11
John Pepper: There were very tough challenges on business issues.
50:14
John Pepper: How much should we invest in Russia?
50:16
John Pepper: Should we go into the southern cone of Latin America?
50:20
John Pepper: These were tough issues.
50:21
John Pepper: But the biggest issues that I've faced in trying to do the right thing
50:25
John Pepper: was who do I promote?
50:27
John Pepper: It's people issues.
50:29
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
50:30
John Pepper: And also organization issues.
50:32
John Pepper: How do we provide the different positions?
50:37
John Pepper: Of the third, loved people, I really wanted to emphasize.
50:42
John Pepper: I said, you're you're obviously...
50:43
John Pepper: You're gonna love different people in different ways.
50:45
John Pepper: You love your family in a particular way.
50:47
John Pepper: You're not gonna love this stranger on the street.
50:51
John Pepper: Obviously, they're different groups.
50:53
John Pepper: But I said the key thing I wanted to make, at least I encouraged,
50:58
John Pepper: was approach people with a sense of love and a sense
51:02
John Pepper: of openness,
51:04
John Pepper: to who they are as an individual person and to understand
51:08
John Pepper: them and understand them with a sense this person
51:13
John Pepper: deserves respect and and they have a story from which I can
51:17
John Pepper: benefit.
51:18
John Pepper: Right now, I have I have I have round the clock here.
51:23
John Pepper: I'm very fortunate.
51:24
John Pepper: And I'm...
51:25
John Pepper: A lot of it round the clock here, I probably have twelve different people
51:29
John Pepper: over the course of two months I meet.
51:33
John Pepper: And and it's fair to say that I love these people.
51:37
John Pepper: Mhmm.
51:38
John Pepper: And and understand, I'm getting so much learning, Lisa,
51:42
John Pepper: from from the
51:43
Lisa Nichols: From them?
51:44
Lisa Nichols: Oh.
51:44
John Pepper: Of them, their life stories, what they've overcome, their values.
51:48
John Pepper: And they're reinforcing and informing.
51:51
John Pepper: They're both reinforcing the things I've always believed, and they're also informing
51:55
John Pepper: of challenges that people overcome that make me realize we've gotta
51:59
John Pepper: go for it in our own life and help other people to
52:03
John Pepper: the extent we can and to the extent they want along the way.
52:09
John Pepper: So those are the three.
52:10
John Pepper: Believe in yourself.
52:11
John Pepper: Do what you think is right.
52:13
John Pepper: Love people.
52:14
Lisa Nichols: Love people.
52:15
Lisa Nichols: Those are those are good ones, John.
52:18
Lisa Nichols: Those are really good ones.
52:20
Lisa Nichols: Well, can you tell me this, and then we're gonna talk about something extra.
52:24
Lisa Nichols: I could go on and on.
52:25
Lisa Nichols: I could do a three hour podcast with you.
52:28
Lisa Nichols: I really could.
52:28
John Pepper: Oh, you don't wanna
52:29
Lisa Nichols: do that.
52:31
Lisa Nichols: But we're not gonna we're not gonna do that.
52:33
Lisa Nichols: We're not gonna do that.
52:35
John Pepper: I mean, you're...
52:35
John Pepper: That would you're not gonna put that on your podcast.
52:38
Lisa Nichols: There's...
52:38
Lisa Nichols: There is enough material to do that long of a podcast
52:42
Lisa Nichols: with you.
52:43
Lisa Nichols: But, you know,
52:46
Lisa Nichols: can you tell our listeners when you
52:51
Lisa Nichols: retired from P & G, what was the advice that
52:55
Lisa Nichols: you left with your employees when you retired?
52:59
John Pepper: I think it was a number of things that we've talked about.
53:02
John Pepper: Lisa, it would be...
53:03
John Pepper: What would be...
53:04
John Pepper: Remember why we're doing what we do.
53:06
John Pepper: Mhmm.
53:08
John Pepper: We don't often remember enough in our work,
53:12
John Pepper: with the grind, the challenge.
53:15
John Pepper: Why are we doing all this?
53:17
John Pepper: And and what does it mean to do it better tomorrow than today?
53:22
John Pepper: That brings you back to service Mhmm.
53:24
John Pepper: And to purpose.
53:27
John Pepper: I tell them never forget.
53:29
John Pepper: Never forget the importance of having a culture, and
53:33
John Pepper: that's too bland a word.
53:35
John Pepper: I I mean, I know it's well used, and it describes a lot of
53:38
John Pepper: good things.
53:39
John Pepper: But make sure you have an environment
53:42
John Pepper: where people feel welcome and where they feel they can strive for something excellent.
53:49
John Pepper: Never fall into the trap of weighing, where should I put my emphasis
53:53
John Pepper: on the business or on people?
53:55
John Pepper: That is the false canard of all time.
53:58
John Pepper: If one isn't focusing on the people and the organization,
54:03
John Pepper: you're not gonna have the business results.
54:05
John Pepper: They have to go together.
54:06
John Pepper: They're
54:07
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
54:07
John Pepper: And they have to go together.
54:11
John Pepper: I'd say be prepared to make the big bet, but things are gonna
54:15
John Pepper: come along.
54:17
John Pepper: And probably five years from now, you'll look back on what you've done.
54:21
John Pepper: And with all the work, it'll probably be only two or three.
54:25
John Pepper: There'll only be two or three.
54:26
John Pepper: You'll look at and say that made a big difference.
54:28
John Pepper: That's sustainable.
54:30
John Pepper: Look for them.
54:32
John Pepper: Mhmm.
54:32
John Pepper: Look for them.
54:33
John Pepper: You'll have to be doing other things, but look for where you can make
54:36
John Pepper: that difference alone or more often with other people.
54:41
John Pepper: Mhmm.
54:41
John Pepper: And making what will be
54:43
Lisa Nichols: That's a good word.
54:44
John Pepper: Discontinuous diff...
54:46
John Pepper: Difference.
54:47
John Pepper: Mhmm.
54:48
John Pepper: That's sustainable.
54:48
John Pepper: And then how do you make it sustainable?
54:52
John Pepper: And I'd say, you know,
54:55
John Pepper: well,
54:57
John Pepper: make sure you make sure you're taking care of your family.
55:01
John Pepper: I'd tell them, make sure you're taking care of your family.
55:04
John Pepper: Don't allow the work to stop you from doing that.
55:07
John Pepper: Mhmm.
55:08
John Pepper: You won't live well.
55:09
John Pepper: One, you won't be doing the right thing, and two, you won't live well
55:12
John Pepper: with the memory of getting that balance wrong.
55:16
John Pepper: You won't.
55:17
John Pepper: No.
55:18
Lisa Nichols: That's good.
55:19
John Pepper: It was something
55:22
John Pepper: something a British...
55:23
John Pepper: Oh, he wasn't.
55:24
John Pepper: He was an Indian professor who said once, Sumatra Ghoshal,
55:28
John Pepper: he was talking to a group of business people at Davos.
55:33
John Pepper: I didn't...
55:34
John Pepper: I wasn't at Davos.
55:35
John Pepper: I I swore on tape, and he talked about something.
55:38
John Pepper: Maybe you've heard this.
55:40
John Pepper: But he talked about the climate in different organization.
55:44
John Pepper: And he said people are telling workers of everywhere,
55:48
John Pepper: be more creative.
55:49
John Pepper: We need more of your eyes.
55:50
John Pepper: Be be more creative.
55:52
John Pepper: And he said the problem is they don't have an environment that really invites
55:56
John Pepper: them, empowers them to be creative.
55:59
John Pepper: And he went on with an analog of his
56:04
John Pepper: being from Calcutta.
56:06
John Pepper: And when he'd go home in the summer from London
56:11
John Pepper: and be in Calcutta temperature a hundred degrees, not much different than it is
56:15
John Pepper: today here.
56:17
John Pepper: Since it's sunny.
56:18
John Pepper: And humidity, he'd find it very hard to be creative.
56:21
John Pepper: In the in the spring, he'd go to the forest and Fontainebleau,
56:25
John Pepper: Birds are tripping and the trees are budding.
56:28
John Pepper: And he could be creative.
56:30
John Pepper: And he said to the business people, you guys and gals, if there were
56:34
John Pepper: some gals in the audience, probably some,
56:37
John Pepper: Your more...
56:38
John Pepper: Your businesses are more like Calcutta in the summer.
56:41
John Pepper: And he then went on to say, and I'll go through this briefly.
56:44
John Pepper: He said what we need to create, what you need to create
56:49
John Pepper: is what he called a positive smell of the place.
56:52
John Pepper: And an organization has a smell of the place.
56:56
John Pepper: And I really believe this.
56:57
John Pepper: I've found this personally to be true.
56:59
John Pepper: And what characterizes a good smell of the place is stretch.
57:04
John Pepper: That is the organization is going for a goal, which if and
57:09
John Pepper: when realized, produce a great deal of satisfaction.
57:15
John Pepper: Discipline is the next vector.
57:17
John Pepper: Discipline.
57:17
John Pepper: Everybody knows their job.
57:19
John Pepper: They know they've gotta do it as well as possible.
57:22
John Pepper: It's like an eight person crew.
57:24
John Pepper: Every crew member knows they've got to be on their game.
57:27
John Pepper: If one isn't, the crew game's up.
57:30
Lisa Nichols: Suffers, right?
57:31
John Pepper: Right.
57:31
John Pepper: Support.
57:33
John Pepper: Disciplined at support.
57:34
John Pepper: We're supporting each other.
57:37
John Pepper: And underneath the glue that holds everything together, trust.
57:42
John Pepper: There has to be trust in the organization.
57:46
John Pepper: Trust to be able to rely on the person next to you,
57:51
John Pepper: trust to go after this goal.
57:53
John Pepper: And I have found, Lisa, this analog of this...
57:57
John Pepper: All over the place to characterize the best school rooms I've been in.
58:01
John Pepper: I can tell it's a different school teacher.
58:03
John Pepper: I can tell a principal in a school, business.
58:08
John Pepper: I could go around to see areas of P and G, dozens of them,
58:13
John Pepper: and there would be a different smell of the place characterized again by the
58:17
John Pepper: sense of excitement about a stretch goal,
58:20
John Pepper: discipline.
58:22
John Pepper: We know everybody's gonna do their job, support.
58:25
John Pepper: We're in it together, and trust, the most important
58:29
John Pepper: thing.
58:30
John Pepper: Yeah.
58:30
John Pepper: That trust can only come really from relationships.
58:35
John Pepper: You can't just say no.
58:36
John Pepper: Let's everybody trust each other, and that won't get very far.
58:42
Lisa Nichols: That's so good.
58:43
Lisa Nichols: That's so good, John.
58:45
Lisa Nichols: Well, I just...
58:46
Lisa Nichols: We don't have time, but I really encourage
58:50
Lisa Nichols: our listeners.
58:51
Lisa Nichols: I mean, this is...
58:52
Lisa Nichols: This book, Hundred Books That Shaped My Life, is so
58:57
Lisa Nichols: rich.
58:57
Lisa Nichols: I mean, it really is.
58:58
Lisa Nichols: And, I mean, I'm sure...
59:00
Lisa Nichols: Let's see.
59:01
Lisa Nichols: I read a story.
59:02
Lisa Nichols: I read the story about, I think, John
59:06
Lisa Nichols: and your daughter, Susie.
59:09
Lisa Nichols: Is it Susie?
59:10
John Pepper: Yeah.
59:10
John Pepper: Susan.
59:11
Lisa Nichols: Susan?
59:12
John Pepper: Yes.
59:13
Lisa Nichols: Went through your books, and I think that there was, like...
59:17
Lisa Nichols: I don't know how many books...
59:19
Lisa Nichols: How many books do you think you have, John,
59:22
Lisa Nichols: on...
59:22
Lisa Nichols: Sitting on your bookshelves?
59:23
Lisa Nichols: And I think they went through and, like, kind of categorized
59:28
Lisa Nichols: them into history
59:29
John Pepper: Yeah.
59:30
John Pepper: They did.
59:30
John Pepper: Accents.
59:31
Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
59:32
Lisa Nichols: Which is so cool.
59:33
Lisa Nichols: It's like your own library.
59:35
John Pepper: Well, in the in the book itself, as you know, it's really made up
59:39
John Pepper: of very brief summaries of the book and then personal reflections.
59:43
John Pepper: Yes.
59:43
John Pepper: Other than my advice is it's a book.
59:46
John Pepper: You don't read front to back at all.
59:48
John Pepper: You find a category of interest, dip in, try it.
59:52
John Pepper: If if you don't like it, at least try one more.
59:54
John Pepper: If that isn't good, put the book aside and move on.
59:58
John Pepper: Hopefully, you find some.
1:00:00
John Pepper: I've been grateful grateful to the authors,
1:00:05
John Pepper: and some of them I've known personally and many more I have.
1:00:09
John Pepper: Who who really give me the gift to their thinking and the quality of
1:00:12
John Pepper: their writing.
1:00:13
John Pepper: And it's brought a great deal in my life as I'm sure it has
1:00:17
John Pepper: been reading for your...
1:00:18
John Pepper: All your listeners.
1:00:20
John Pepper: Maybe there'll be some few books in there you'd find and say, that sounds
1:00:24
John Pepper: interesting.
1:00:25
John Pepper: My hope is it will lead people to read more books.
1:00:27
Lisa Nichols: To read more.
1:00:28
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
1:00:29
Lisa Nichols: I agree.
1:00:31
Lisa Nichols: I love it.
1:00:32
John Pepper: That's the purpose.
1:00:33
Lisa Nichols: I love it so much.
1:00:34
Lisa Nichols: Well, John, I ask every guest this question.
1:00:38
Lisa Nichols: What do you believe is the something extra?
1:00:40
Lisa Nichols: And you've probably already talked about some of them, so feel free
1:00:44
Lisa Nichols: to repeat if you need to.
1:00:46
Lisa Nichols: But what is the something extra that you believe every leader
1:00:50
Lisa Nichols: needs?
1:00:52
John Pepper: I think they need a sense of purpose
1:00:55
John Pepper: personally in their life.
1:00:57
John Pepper: In the in the life of the institution, which they serve.
1:01:01
John Pepper: What is that purpose and how they can contribute to it?
1:01:05
John Pepper: And I would urge the approach at that purpose with a sense of
1:01:10
John Pepper: of love developed by the knowledge of what good it can do
1:01:15
John Pepper: and love in a sense of the relationships that need to be created
1:01:19
John Pepper: among people in order to make to make it happen,
1:01:24
John Pepper: and to make it worthwhile, and to make it sustained.
1:01:28
John Pepper: I think purpose and deep love with all the things that flow from it,
1:01:33
John Pepper: a commitment to be better, innovation, always.
1:01:36
Lisa Nichols: That's so good.
1:01:37
Lisa Nichols: So good.
1:01:39
Lisa Nichols: John, again, it has been such a tremendous honor,
1:01:43
Lisa Nichols: truly, for me to have you on the show today.
1:01:46
Lisa Nichols: And I just thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your
1:01:50
Lisa Nichols: heart and, your leadership principles.
1:01:53
Lisa Nichols: I just know that it's gonna help our listeners.
1:01:56
Lisa Nichols: So thank you so much for depositing
1:02:00
Lisa Nichols: so much richness in them.
1:02:02
John Pepper: Lisa, thank you very much.
1:02:04
John Pepper: I appreciated it.
1:02:06
John Pepper: It was it was fun.
1:02:07
Lisa Nichols: Yes.
1:02:08
Lisa Nichols: It was fun.
1:02:09
Lisa Nichols: Alright.
1:02:10
Lisa Nichols: You take care.
1:02:11
Announcer: Something extra with Lisa Nichols is a Technology Partners production.
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Announcer: Copyright Technology Partners Inc twenty nineteen.
1:02:18
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