Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Cold Cases, Hard Truths: Retired Detective on Justice and Failure | Damian Loone

Transcript

Cold Cases, Hard Truths: Retired Detective on Justice and Failure | Damian Loone · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Approache production.
0:14
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shanda. I'm your host,
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam shann What makes a good detective? Each successful investigator
0:21
Speaker 2: I've met has their own attributes, but common to all
0:25
Speaker 2: is a quality of doggedness born of empathy for the
0:28
Speaker 2: victims and their families.
0:31
Speaker 1: Good human traits, I reckon.
0:32
Speaker 2: You'd probably say there's also an independence of thought and action,
0:36
Speaker 2: an ability to see evidentiary pathways and opportunities that others don't.
0:42
Speaker 2: That independence can cause dramas for detectives with their colleagues,
0:46
Speaker 2: but the good ones accept that's part of the job.
0:49
Speaker 3: Janette Dawson's family says the sentencing of her husband Chris
0:52
Speaker 3: Dawson marks the end of a very long, painful and
0:56
Speaker 3: challenging journey.
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Speaker 2: My guest today, retired New South Wales detective Sergeant Damian Lunn,
1:01
Speaker 2: had those qualities.
1:02
Speaker 1: In fact, he's still got them. In a third tenty
1:05
Speaker 1: five year career in the cops.
1:06
Speaker 2: He's worked on all kinds of cold cases, the high
1:09
Speaker 2: profile ones, mostly from the Lynette Dawson murder.
1:12
Speaker 3: Chris Dawson will remain behind bars as a convicted wife
1:16
Speaker 3: killer after a failed appeal.
1:19
Speaker 1: The disappearance of Sheyl Grimmer.
1:20
Speaker 3: The disappearance of three year old Cheryld Grimmer remains one
1:24
Speaker 3: of Australia's longest running missing person cases.
1:27
Speaker 2: And continues to work as a consultant to private investigations
1:30
Speaker 2: by media, including the murder of twenty three year old
1:33
Speaker 2: Rachel Childs on the New South Wales South Coast in
1:36
Speaker 2: two thousand and one.
1:38
Speaker 3: Rachel Childs was brutally murdered on the New South Wales
1:41
Speaker 3: South Coast in two thousand and one. Despite a major
1:44
Speaker 3: homicide investigation, her killer has never been brought to justice.
1:49
Speaker 2: He's also found time to enter the blood sport of
1:52
Speaker 2: local government, currently serving as the Deputy Mayor of Ballina Shire.
1:57
Speaker 2: He's supposed to be retired from a life of public service,
2:01
Speaker 2: but I don't think he's ready to do that, and
2:03
Speaker 2: maybe he just does. Know how I'm grateful the day
2:07
Speaker 2: men's found the time to talk to me today, Can I.
2:09
Speaker 1: Mate, Adam? How are you buddy? Very well? Am I
2:14
Speaker 1: right that you simply can't retire?
2:18
Speaker 4: Well, it goes like this, you know, after thirty five
2:20
Speaker 4: years of serving the community and caring about the people
2:23
Speaker 4: in my community and my work colleagues, that I suddenly
2:26
Speaker 4: won Friday afternoon, I retire and the next day I've
2:29
Speaker 4: stopped caring.
2:30
Speaker 1: So it's not to go at all with me.
2:32
Speaker 4: It's probably in my DNA to keep doing some sort
2:34
Speaker 4: of community service and that's where I am today.
2:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also getting involved in these cold case investigations
2:42
Speaker 2: where you're working really as a detective again in these
2:45
Speaker 2: podcasts and things that you get involved in. And I
2:48
Speaker 2: heard you say once in another podcast that you didn't
2:51
Speaker 2: quite know how to prepare for that day after stopping
2:55
Speaker 2: working as a detective.
2:56
Speaker 1: Is that a fair thing?
2:57
Speaker 5: Oh?
2:57
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
2:58
Speaker 4: And I remember waking up on the Saturday morning after
3:01
Speaker 4: a sort of a long day of farewelling, and I
3:03
Speaker 4: woke up and I checked my phone. I've got a
3:05
Speaker 4: mister a phone call overnight, because I normally used to
3:08
Speaker 4: receive a phone call being a detective in charge of
3:11
Speaker 4: me eight other investigators out there in the bush. And
3:14
Speaker 4: I had to kick myself and go, what are you doing,
3:16
Speaker 4: you idiot? You know she retired yesterday. No one wants
3:19
Speaker 4: to know that you are today. So yeah, it was
3:22
Speaker 4: a difficult process and I never really thought that would
3:25
Speaker 4: ever occur to me, but it did.
3:26
Speaker 1: It just happened, and to.
3:29
Speaker 2: Me I think you always use this line about, you know,
3:31
Speaker 2: good detectives are good humans, and I think that you've
3:34
Speaker 2: always had that quality that you do care for the victims,
3:38
Speaker 2: you care for the families, you care for closure, And
3:41
Speaker 2: I wonder in your own psychological makeup how difficult it
3:45
Speaker 2: is to walk away from these cases. And I think
3:47
Speaker 2: that's something that all detectives have to get used to.
3:51
Speaker 1: They can't solve everything.
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Speaker 4: Well, that's right, and the reality is that you can't
3:55
Speaker 4: solve every one of them. But you know, the ones
3:58
Speaker 4: that I did solve, I was just pleased with the
4:00
Speaker 4: fact that I kept in contact with the families and
4:03
Speaker 4: the victims of the victims. So I always say secondary
4:05
Speaker 4: victims of the family members. And you know, it's about
4:10
Speaker 4: really just having some common sense and trying then to
4:13
Speaker 4: do your best, you know, and there's once you can't solve.
4:16
Speaker 4: And I used to wear a lot of my cases
4:17
Speaker 4: on my sleeve because if I lost the court matter,
4:19
Speaker 4: it was like the worst day of my life. It
4:21
Speaker 4: didn't mean it was a simple stealing in a store,
4:24
Speaker 4: you know. I think I was pretty good convicting a
4:26
Speaker 4: lot of people, and it is disappointing and you go
4:30
Speaker 4: home and you're upset, and your mates and you fellow
4:34
Speaker 4: detectives or police officers you worked on the matter with.
4:36
Speaker 4: You know, you'll go for a beer afterwards and you
4:38
Speaker 4: go through what they call a post book them where
4:40
Speaker 4: you try and work out where things went wrong, but
4:43
Speaker 4: also the good ones when we did get a conviction,
4:46
Speaker 4: and we used to talk about what things were right
4:48
Speaker 4: and good.
4:50
Speaker 2: I first met you around the Ryl Grimmer case. She
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Speaker 2: disappeared in January twelve, nineteen seventy from fairy Meadow Beach.
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Speaker 2: You worked with Frank Sandertali on that case from twenty sixteen.
5:00
Speaker 2: You got the case to the court and it looked
5:02
Speaker 2: to be an overwhelming case, only to be derailed by
5:07
Speaker 2: a retrospective piece of legislation. And I interviewed you with
5:11
Speaker 2: Frank Sanbertali, and I've never heard a detective sob the
5:16
Speaker 2: way Frank did. And it really came home to me.
5:20
Speaker 2: I mean, he's a good Italian boy, very expressive. But
5:24
Speaker 2: I think you feel the same way about your cases.
5:28
Speaker 2: And I wonder do you have anybody in your life
5:32
Speaker 2: who says, Demo, that's enough, step away.
5:37
Speaker 1: No, I don't.
5:38
Speaker 4: I just got people used to say to me, keep
5:41
Speaker 4: going because with the Len Dawson homicide that was over
5:45
Speaker 4: for twenty four years in total before he got to court.
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Speaker 4: It was never going to give up on that one,
5:50
Speaker 4: and even little Eryl, you know, I just felt we
5:52
Speaker 4: had a really good brief. There's no doubt in my
5:55
Speaker 4: mind that the person that we charged, and his pseudonym
5:58
Speaker 4: is Mercury, was the person responsible.
6:01
Speaker 2: Yes, ofcause he came forward a year after the disappearance
6:05
Speaker 2: of Cheryl and confessed in minute detail, very very good confession.
6:09
Speaker 2: And unfortunately there apparently wasn't an adult on the scene
6:13
Speaker 2: at the time in this boy's home where he confessed.
6:16
Speaker 2: And so when you came to lay the charge in
6:19
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, you were stuck with this retrospective legislation. But
6:23
Speaker 2: of course every murder troll, every case is prosecuted under
6:28
Speaker 2: the law of the day, So you were rolling the
6:32
Speaker 2: dice to some extent where you're not well.
6:35
Speaker 4: I did some research and it wasn't required back in
6:38
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy one, when he came forward some sixteen months
6:40
Speaker 4: after Little Cheryl hadn't vanished and suspected of being murdered,
6:45
Speaker 4: that there wasn't a requirement for a juvenile to have
6:47
Speaker 4: an adult present if he has been questioned by police
6:50
Speaker 4: officers or a person in authority. So I was comfortable
6:53
Speaker 4: with that, and also the fact that I had sent
6:56
Speaker 4: the brief of evidence to our legal services department at
6:59
Speaker 4: Police Headquarters of Paramatta to make sure that I got
7:02
Speaker 4: everything right and to make sure that I had enough
7:04
Speaker 4: evidence there to swear out of first instant warrant for
7:07
Speaker 4: his arrest in Victoria.
7:08
Speaker 1: And they came back and said, yes you do, but
7:11
Speaker 1: you had.
7:12
Speaker 2: This retrospective legislation that you had to contend with. And
7:15
Speaker 2: as I say, every case has tried on the law
7:18
Speaker 2: of the day, so was a part of you still doubtful?
7:24
Speaker 2: Still there was an element of risk to this whole thing.
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Speaker 4: No, because this was only brought up in a matter
7:30
Speaker 4: before the Supreme Court before Justice Hume that the defense
7:34
Speaker 4: for the accused brought this up about the unfairness that
7:37
Speaker 4: he wasn't back in the day compared to today's standards, where
7:41
Speaker 4: an adult person or a person in an authority must
7:44
Speaker 4: be present with the juvenile being questioned. And it wasn't
7:47
Speaker 4: a consideration in my fact when I arrested him, because
7:52
Speaker 4: the statute said back in that day that era that
7:55
Speaker 4: an adult wasn't required, so I really had no and
7:58
Speaker 4: he thought of that until it was raised by the
8:00
Speaker 4: Crown Prosecutor, and then we realized that without that evidence
8:04
Speaker 4: of the record of interview taken by Detective Sergeant Joe
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Speaker 4: Parrington early May nineteen seventy one, that we won't be
8:11
Speaker 4: able to get over the line with this because all
8:13
Speaker 4: our reinvestigation centered on that record of interview that he'd
8:17
Speaker 4: undertaken freely and voluntarily and told investigators exactly what.
8:22
Speaker 1: He did on that day.
8:24
Speaker 4: And there is no doubt in my mind that you
8:26
Speaker 4: would have had to have been there. It was because
8:28
Speaker 4: of what you had said to those investigators. So it
8:32
Speaker 4: didn't come into play with me, and so it was
8:34
Speaker 4: raised by the Crown and we had a discussion about this,
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Speaker 4: and we both agreed then that this is going to
8:39
Speaker 4: be thrown out the record of interview because of the
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Speaker 4: retrospective law about now having no adult person with this
8:45
Speaker 4: young person being questioned, well, we couldn't get over it, really,
8:48
Speaker 4: and I agreed with the Crown Prosecutor that we couldn't
8:52
Speaker 4: possibly go any further, and as a result of that,
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Speaker 4: that matter was then basically if you want to tossed
9:00
Speaker 4: out of court.
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Speaker 1: It must have been a crushing blow to you personally.
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Speaker 4: Oh And the biggest worrying for me was how do.
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Speaker 1: I tell a family this?
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Speaker 4: How do I tell a family about retrospective law, a
9:14
Speaker 4: judgment made by a Supreme Court justice and they just
9:18
Speaker 4: don't understand the legal technicalities of this judgment. And we
9:23
Speaker 4: had to dumb it down to basically say, well, it's
9:25
Speaker 4: the retrospective of law, and they couldn't understand it, and
9:29
Speaker 4: it was hard to tell them. And I even felt
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Speaker 4: so sorry for them that afternoon, that Friday afternoon, when
9:36
Speaker 4: they went through such a terrible time to know that
9:40
Speaker 4: the person that they were confident I was going to
9:42
Speaker 4: face trial was suddenly I was walking free out the
9:45
Speaker 4: back doors of Darlau Court.
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Speaker 2: And the emotional stakes in that situation were so high
9:51
Speaker 2: because Ricky Nash, Cheryl's brother, had carried the guilt and
9:56
Speaker 2: he was the one that had failed Cheryl that day
9:59
Speaker 2: at Very Meadow when he turned his back to go
10:00
Speaker 2: back to his mother to say she wouldn't come out
10:02
Speaker 2: of the shower blocks, and by the time they came back,
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Speaker 2: she'd been taken. And you were the one that revealed
10:09
Speaker 2: to Ricky that there was this confession the family had
10:12
Speaker 2: no idea about, and so the expectation must have been
10:16
Speaker 2: so high. And I know how investigators in the past
10:20
Speaker 2: have made the mistake of saying this is the slam dunk,
10:24
Speaker 2: the laid down maas, we're going to get this bloke.
10:26
Speaker 2: How difficult is it when you're dealing with a family
10:28
Speaker 2: like that and someone like Ricky who has carried this
10:32
Speaker 2: weight all those years.
10:34
Speaker 4: Well, this matter had been investigated a number of occasions
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Speaker 4: under the Strikeforce vessel, and I just don't know why
10:42
Speaker 4: the family weren't alerted to the fact that someone had
10:45
Speaker 4: come forward back in late April nineteen seventy one to
10:48
Speaker 4: say that they were responsible, but to tell them the
10:50
Speaker 4: fact that we had this record of interview, and it
10:53
Speaker 4: was chilling as to what the description of what this
10:56
Speaker 4: person said he had done to Cheryl.
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Speaker 1: I really couldn't.
10:59
Speaker 4: I had to give it to Ricky fairly straight, minus
11:03
Speaker 4: the gory details, because I've also got a care for
11:07
Speaker 4: the victim's family as well as to how they feel
11:10
Speaker 4: and what they might do afterwards.
11:13
Speaker 2: It's a difficult balancing act because as a detective you're
11:16
Speaker 2: actually there for the crown, not the family. Of the victim.
11:20
Speaker 2: You're actually there to prove the case for the crown.
11:22
Speaker 2: How do you balance that with how much information you
11:26
Speaker 2: tell the family to make sure you don't prejudice a
11:29
Speaker 2: prosecution or create false hope.
11:32
Speaker 4: Well that's a great question, mate, and I thank you
11:34
Speaker 4: for asking that. It's a balanced decision, and it's tricky.
11:37
Speaker 4: It stages to get the rapport from family and the trust.
11:40
Speaker 4: You need to be transparent. In some regard, you can't
11:44
Speaker 4: be one hundred percent transparent because if something was to
11:48
Speaker 4: get out or said, etc. It may jeopardize the integrity
11:52
Speaker 4: of the trial. So I was and Frank as well,
11:56
Speaker 4: we were confident in this that we would give the
11:59
Speaker 4: information if asked, but we wouldn't go into any further
12:03
Speaker 4: detail about it, and we'd just say please just trust.
12:06
Speaker 1: As we know what we're doing. All will be explained
12:09
Speaker 1: in the end.
12:10
Speaker 4: But if you asked me a hard question and I
12:12
Speaker 4: won't be able to answer it, I'll tell you I
12:14
Speaker 4: won't be able to answer it. And at the same time,
12:17
Speaker 4: my lay is non aedges to the family but also
12:20
Speaker 4: to the crown prosecuted, because he relies on my evidence
12:23
Speaker 4: and my investigation. Or how Frank and my investigation to
12:28
Speaker 4: get this matter proceeded through to trial.
12:32
Speaker 2: And this certainly happened in the Lynette Dawson case as well,
12:36
Speaker 2: where during the trial of Chris Dawson, you were put
12:39
Speaker 2: under the spotlight where you were accused of not doing
12:43
Speaker 2: certain things, certain interviews, or looking at certain piece of
12:46
Speaker 2: information that might have been exculpatory of Chris Dawson. The
12:50
Speaker 2: fact that there were witnesses that had allegedly seen Lynn
12:55
Speaker 2: years after she was supposed to have disappeared, and you
12:57
Speaker 2: were in the hot seat in that moment. So I
12:59
Speaker 2: think those in the Supreme Court, it's a very unforgiving
13:02
Speaker 2: atmosphere and you have to not be falling victim having
13:07
Speaker 2: tunnel vision.
13:08
Speaker 4: Well, that's right, you know, But also you know, there
13:10
Speaker 4: seemed to be a lot of red herrings in the
13:12
Speaker 4: doors and trial that I just thought that we needed
13:15
Speaker 4: to get the information that I knew that was right,
13:18
Speaker 4: and for someone to say I think I saw her
13:20
Speaker 4: or whatever, I did chase those down, you know, to
13:23
Speaker 4: some extent. There are others that throughout the investigation there
13:27
Speaker 4: was it was stalled because I was running it basically
13:29
Speaker 4: by myself for a large number of years. I had
13:32
Speaker 4: no other assistance, and you know it's difficult. I knew
13:35
Speaker 4: the people that needed to be spoken to. So when
13:39
Speaker 4: the matter was formally requested by the unsold Hoomicit squad
13:43
Speaker 4: to take the matter over, which I had been to
13:45
Speaker 4: them on a number of occasions to ask them for
13:47
Speaker 4: their assistance, and I was refused, I said to them, well,
13:51
Speaker 4: there's a list of people that you need to speak with,
13:53
Speaker 4: and I outlined that and eventually they were spoken to.
13:57
Speaker 4: So I was confident that because they had a large
13:59
Speaker 4: number of people working on it, you know, except one
14:01
Speaker 4: copper like myself, So they had the team that could
14:04
Speaker 4: do it.
14:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, And how frustrating is it you worked on it
14:08
Speaker 2: for eighteen years, wasn't I believable? In Dawson case and
14:11
Speaker 2: you've gone to the Director of Public Prosecutions a couple
14:13
Speaker 2: of times. You know that Chris Dawson has done it,
14:15
Speaker 2: but you can't get the DPP to mount a prosecution.
14:19
Speaker 1: How frustrating was that?
14:20
Speaker 4: I look a little bit more so frustrating out Well.
14:23
Speaker 4: I had a meeting with the Director of Public Prosecutions,
14:26
Speaker 4: the two icee and also the Police Minister's Chief of
14:30
Speaker 4: Staff up in laden Quarry Towers in Sydney. And when
14:35
Speaker 4: I was told by the DPP that you were insufficient
14:39
Speaker 4: in evidence, and when I asked where I was insufficient,
14:42
Speaker 4: they said to me, it's privileged information and we can't
14:45
Speaker 4: tell you. And I couldn't believe that I was copying
14:49
Speaker 4: that answer, because apparently the brief had been sent outside
14:53
Speaker 4: of a chambers or DPP to a private entity to
14:57
Speaker 4: look at it, and it came back and I need
15:00
Speaker 4: to be told that, you know. When I asked where
15:03
Speaker 4: I'm in sufficient, I was and told where I was.
15:06
Speaker 4: And I found that just very, very difficult to believe.
15:10
Speaker 4: But I think it was John Pickering, now I think
15:12
Speaker 4: he's a district or judge, said he can keep going
15:14
Speaker 4: at it, so I.
15:16
Speaker 2: Did, well, I mean, how can that be an interest
15:20
Speaker 2: of justice, because surely you should be told where you're
15:24
Speaker 2: weak and you have to go.
15:25
Speaker 1: Back and do more work.
15:26
Speaker 2: I mean, like, yes, you were really faced with back
15:29
Speaker 2: then the absence of a body, and back in those
15:32
Speaker 2: days that was a huge hurdle to get over, not
15:34
Speaker 2: just in New South Wales but across the country.
15:36
Speaker 1: Things are changing. Was that your major hurdle?
15:40
Speaker 2: They never found Lynn, by the way, but was that
15:42
Speaker 2: the major hurdle for you, you think, I think it
15:44
Speaker 2: may have.
15:45
Speaker 4: Been for the DPP, yes, but for me it wasn't
15:47
Speaker 4: because you know, we had successful prosecutions with Bruce Burrell,
15:51
Speaker 4: who was charged onto counts of murder and the bodies
15:54
Speaker 4: have never been found, and I was confident that presidents
15:57
Speaker 4: had been set in the Supreme Court, and I was
16:00
Speaker 4: confident that I didn't need a body to prove that
16:02
Speaker 4: Linn was murdered. We did all the fact checks of life,
16:05
Speaker 4: a proof of life checks and found that she wasn't.
16:08
Speaker 4: Basically some common sense tea that she's not alive. But
16:12
Speaker 4: it may have been a sticking point for the DVP.
16:14
Speaker 4: I don't know, but they've never told me.
16:16
Speaker 2: Is it difficult to I mean, you must have thought
16:19
Speaker 2: Chris Dawson was guilty from the beginning, and I think
16:21
Speaker 2: you've said that on numerous occasions.
16:23
Speaker 1: How do you not lose your objectivity?
16:27
Speaker 2: What checks and balances did you employ as an investigator
16:30
Speaker 2: not to lose your way in those moments because of
16:34
Speaker 2: a personal conviction of someone's guilt.
16:37
Speaker 1: Well, I was aware that.
16:38
Speaker 4: When I was investigating the early days of Len's disappearance
16:42
Speaker 4: back in the late nineties, that there was some witnesses
16:46
Speaker 4: coming forward about some inappropriate sexual behavior by Chris Dawson
16:50
Speaker 4: and his twin brother and a number of other teachers
16:53
Speaker 4: at Cromer High School. So I went to my superior,
16:56
Speaker 4: Paul him and he's a lovely, dedicated former detective inspector
17:02
Speaker 4: with an old school cop and I said, look, I
17:04
Speaker 4: don't want to get sidetracked on these sexual assaults. Apparently
17:09
Speaker 4: it's occurred, and he said, your main aim is to
17:11
Speaker 4: find out what happened to Lend. He said, put that
17:13
Speaker 4: in a report and that'll be dealt with later on.
17:16
Speaker 4: And eventually, after all those years, that matter was dealt
17:20
Speaker 4: within the court where Chrys Dawson was again found guilty
17:23
Speaker 4: of carnal knowledge.
17:24
Speaker 1: So I didn't want to know, look, go.
17:26
Speaker 4: Out and lock him up for that, and go, well,
17:28
Speaker 4: I can't get you on murder, I'll get you on
17:30
Speaker 4: a sexual offense, and you know, because that would be
17:33
Speaker 4: malicious prosecution in my book, So I had to keep
17:36
Speaker 4: the focus on and I said, I wanted to know
17:39
Speaker 4: what happened to Lyn Dawson and if I could try
17:43
Speaker 4: and find her. But obviously that was always going to
17:45
Speaker 4: be difficult because I believe from the first moment she
17:48
Speaker 4: was murdered by her husband.
17:50
Speaker 1: So I just kept kept going Chromer High School.
17:54
Speaker 2: In fact, all those Northern Beaches, those schools, it was
17:56
Speaker 2: a shock over had but Peter Wayne Scott was also
17:59
Speaker 2: he was abusing boys. I mean, do you think we've
18:02
Speaker 2: really seen the extent of the criminal wrongdoing by teachers
18:06
Speaker 2: in that era at that school?
18:09
Speaker 1: Oh? No, largely no, I would say.
18:11
Speaker 4: But the difficulty part now would be having those former
18:15
Speaker 4: students come forward and they will give it an opportunity
18:18
Speaker 4: through that the Teacher's Pet podcast, I believe, and through
18:22
Speaker 4: the media about what was going on to come forward,
18:25
Speaker 4: and there was a strike force set up after Dawson
18:29
Speaker 4: was convicted about those matters. And as I said, I'm
18:32
Speaker 4: not privy to who came forward or what was said,
18:34
Speaker 4: but I think some of them now they're middle aged
18:38
Speaker 4: and they don't want to be identified because they've got
18:40
Speaker 4: a young family, but telling the authorities what had happened,
18:44
Speaker 4: but I don't want to go to court, and that's
18:46
Speaker 4: what I think.
18:47
Speaker 1: May have happened.
18:49
Speaker 2: And I guess also the blazing publicity that went around
18:51
Speaker 2: the world with the Teacher's Pet podcast possibly could have
18:55
Speaker 2: scared off a few possible witnesses victims who might have
18:59
Speaker 2: come forward but don't want to be in the glare
19:02
Speaker 2: of publicity because taken them into the Supreme Court talking
19:05
Speaker 2: about these really sensitive, embarrassing, damaging matters is no easy task.
19:13
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, And I agree with you, And you know
19:16
Speaker 1: you can't drag them to court.
19:18
Speaker 4: If they're happy to tell you what their stories were,
19:20
Speaker 4: what they experienced, you may then be able to find
19:23
Speaker 4: someone else if you might say, look, I'm happy to
19:25
Speaker 4: give evidence, and I'm happy to go to court if required.
19:28
Speaker 4: You can't make all of them go to court. I
19:30
Speaker 4: understand that it is a sensitive area, and I'm certainly
19:33
Speaker 4: not the one to demand someone go to court and
19:36
Speaker 4: give evidence. If they're happy to tell me a story
19:39
Speaker 4: and they don't want to enforce in each charges or
19:42
Speaker 4: lay a complaint of any ledgs wrongdoing, I'm happy to
19:45
Speaker 4: listen to them because that gives me, you know, also
19:48
Speaker 4: a great perspective of who the person is. You know,
19:51
Speaker 4: who I was investigating, and I'll go to when he
19:54
Speaker 4: lenks to find out what that type of person, who
19:58
Speaker 4: that person was, and what was his background, etc. So
20:01
Speaker 4: some of it was handy, but eventually I think they
20:04
Speaker 4: are in a large scale strike force on the sexual offenses,
20:09
Speaker 4: and it only resulted, I think, in Chris Dawson being
20:12
Speaker 4: charged with one offense.
20:14
Speaker 2: Well that's right, because I think without making allegations against
20:17
Speaker 2: his twin brother Paul, his name did come up in
20:19
Speaker 2: dispatches with fairly questionable, if not illegal behavior. Was that
20:24
Speaker 2: a missed opportunity to also charge Paul with some sort
20:28
Speaker 2: of offenses out of this.
20:30
Speaker 4: I would not have because I had a directive my
20:33
Speaker 4: commander to find out what happened to Lin Dawson. I
20:36
Speaker 4: think later on this may have been the subject with
20:38
Speaker 4: the State Crime Command with their strikeforce that I think
20:41
Speaker 4: was Strike pall Southward that they ran that.
20:44
Speaker 1: But yet again I don't know.
20:45
Speaker 4: What was said between the police and the alleged victims
20:48
Speaker 4: of alleged offending by Paul Dawson. I don't certainly know,
20:51
Speaker 4: but it was there a missed opportunity possibly, I don't know,
20:57
Speaker 4: and I can't speak on behalf of that strike force.
21:01
Speaker 2: It does seem like unfinished business, but I guess the
21:03
Speaker 2: first order of unfinished business is where is Lynn Dawson's body.
21:08
Speaker 2: There was a lot of work put into the so
21:10
Speaker 2: called soft soil right next to the house near the
21:13
Speaker 2: pool and things like that.
21:14
Speaker 1: What was your theory about what Dawson did with his wife.
21:19
Speaker 4: Well, I've been to that properly on a number of occasions,
21:21
Speaker 4: and I've excavated that property around the pool, and I
21:25
Speaker 4: was fairly confident that she wasn't anywhere else in that
21:28
Speaker 4: property then, because we were driving star pickets into the
21:31
Speaker 4: ground and we couldn't get more than a couple of
21:33
Speaker 4: inches because of the rocky soil underneath. And so when
21:36
Speaker 4: they went back there I think it was two eighteen
21:38
Speaker 4: two nineteen, where they did a fairly large excavation, I
21:43
Speaker 4: wasn't hopeful of anything being found, to be honest with you,
21:45
Speaker 4: because I was confident that it was a difficult place
21:47
Speaker 4: to bury her body. And you know, at the same time,
21:51
Speaker 4: if the body is there, well the game's over. She
21:54
Speaker 4: just didn't run away, so it'd be silly.
21:57
Speaker 1: For her to be there.
21:58
Speaker 4: But there was a period I think of about twelve
22:00
Speaker 4: hours at the Chris Dawson had an opportunity to dispose
22:03
Speaker 4: of his wife's body where and no matter how or
22:07
Speaker 4: where she is, I simply just don't know any theories. Well,
22:12
Speaker 4: I believe he was en route to Southwest Strokes that night,
22:14
Speaker 4: the Saturday night after the Friday, the eighth of January,
22:18
Speaker 4: when Lynn allegedly arrived home from a psychologist in relation
22:24
Speaker 4: to some marriage guidance counseling with Chris. We know later
22:27
Speaker 4: that night she did speak to her mother late that night,
22:30
Speaker 4: around about nine and nine thirty ish, and from then
22:33
Speaker 4: he goes to work the following morning, a Saturday morning,
22:36
Speaker 4: to the Northbridge Bars where he was a part time
22:39
Speaker 4: life saver, and Lynn hadn't turned up. Allegedly she got
22:44
Speaker 4: on a bus to go to shopping somewhere in the
22:46
Speaker 4: city and would have joined her husband and her mother
22:50
Speaker 4: and the two kids at the pool for lunch, and
22:53
Speaker 4: she never turned up. So I believe that somewhere between
22:57
Speaker 4: that afternoon and the following morning, she's been discarded somewhere,
23:01
Speaker 4: and I just simply just.
23:02
Speaker 1: Don't know it.
23:03
Speaker 4: And I know that Chris Dawson went up to Southwest Frocks,
23:06
Speaker 4: so my guess is anywhere between Bayview and Southwest Frocks.
23:11
Speaker 2: I remember having a conversation with your former colleague Roger
23:14
Speaker 2: calib Rogerson about Christopher Dale Flannery, and he said Flannery's
23:18
Speaker 2: big mistake was that he was a barrier of bodies.
23:20
Speaker 1: That was a big mistake.
23:22
Speaker 2: Why would you bury your body where it can be
23:24
Speaker 2: found when you've got the Pacific Ocean stretching out to
23:28
Speaker 2: the horizon beyond. And of course that that's what mc
23:31
Speaker 2: namara and Rogerson did with Jamie Gower, the drug dealer
23:33
Speaker 2: that they killed. I mean, I think the same thing
23:36
Speaker 2: of Dawson. That he had access to a boat, he
23:39
Speaker 2: could have gone out at a cover of darkness or
23:41
Speaker 2: without much suspicion being raised at that time and simply.
23:44
Speaker 1: Disposed of her body. What do you think of that theory? Oh?
23:48
Speaker 4: Look, absolutely certainly she wasn't there at Bayview. So where
23:51
Speaker 4: is she? That's the big question. And you know we're
23:53
Speaker 4: looking at a good twelve hour period, so you know,
23:56
Speaker 4: there's a lot you can do in twelve hours. There's
23:58
Speaker 4: a lot long way you can drive within twelve hours
24:00
Speaker 4: to dispose of a body somewhere remotely, orbit, in sea
24:03
Speaker 4: or land. That's always going to be the question mark
24:08
Speaker 4: where she is. And hopefully now with the new the legislation,
24:12
Speaker 4: Lynn's Law called nobody no parole. If he's up for
24:15
Speaker 4: parole at some stage and he's still alive and he
24:18
Speaker 4: wishes to re enter the community after saving his minimum
24:22
Speaker 4: parole sentence, that he might be able to tell of
24:25
Speaker 4: the authorities where she is so he can get out
24:27
Speaker 4: before he dies in prison because all his avenues of
24:32
Speaker 4: appeal are exhausted. He's there for the duration.
24:36
Speaker 2: And I've seen this again and again where people in
24:38
Speaker 2: that position still don't reveal the location of the body.
24:42
Speaker 2: What do you think it is in the human psyche
24:44
Speaker 2: of these killers that makes them do this?
24:48
Speaker 1: Well?
24:48
Speaker 4: I always believe that they've said they haven't done it
24:50
Speaker 4: from day one to their loved ones, to their families,
24:53
Speaker 4: and the families believe them. And then to suddenly turn
24:56
Speaker 4: around at the last minute to say, well, yes I
25:00
Speaker 4: did and I am responsible would be absolutely devastating for
25:05
Speaker 4: defender's family and his loved ones and his partner maybe
25:08
Speaker 4: or partners or her partner, and they just they wouldn't
25:12
Speaker 4: say it. I think they will take their secrets to
25:14
Speaker 4: the grave.
25:15
Speaker 2: Do you think it's all in the approach to the killer,
25:17
Speaker 2: that there is a way was skillfully de viewing understanding
25:21
Speaker 2: human psychology, that there can be a breakthrough still that
25:24
Speaker 2: a detective today could make that approach to Dawson, who
25:29
Speaker 2: could then reveal.
25:31
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely, you know. I say to myself, never ever
25:34
Speaker 4: say no. Some of these killers, you know, after being
25:37
Speaker 4: incarcerated for a period of time, they change, they find
25:42
Speaker 4: God some of them do you know, And they think
25:43
Speaker 4: it's a good thing to tell the authorities. But if
25:46
Speaker 4: you don't ask, you'll never know. So it's a good point.
25:49
Speaker 4: I think they even went to see Neddie Smith at
25:51
Speaker 4: some state and also the Blangelo killer as well, prior
25:56
Speaker 4: to him dying in hospital. And I think it will
25:59
Speaker 4: take a skilled detective to go in there and gain
26:01
Speaker 4: the rapport of that person and then over a number
26:04
Speaker 4: of visits and ask, you know, you don't go in
26:07
Speaker 4: and demand, you get their rapport and then try and
26:10
Speaker 4: find out through some skillful interviewing where that anybodies may be.
26:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, that case, I was thinking I was actually Mary
26:18
Speaker 2: Louise while I from one ninety three was killed by
26:20
Speaker 2: Robert John Adams who posed as a policeman and abducted
26:23
Speaker 2: her from a nightclub in North Sydney, had murdered her
26:26
Speaker 2: and disposed of her body, and he wasn't convicted for
26:29
Speaker 2: decades afterwards, and he never reveal where the body was
26:32
Speaker 2: and I actually went to see him in Saysnock jail
26:34
Speaker 2: and I said to him, this is before the nobody
26:37
Speaker 2: no Parole law came out.
26:38
Speaker 1: Lynn's Law, and I said, well, you're not that old.
26:42
Speaker 2: You will get out of jail here, and you'll get
26:45
Speaker 2: out sooner if you reveal where her body is. And
26:48
Speaker 2: he said, listen, I'm not going to tell you I
26:50
Speaker 2: did or I didn't do it, but think of it
26:51
Speaker 2: this way, that I met a woman after this happened.
26:55
Speaker 1: I've had several kids with her.
26:57
Speaker 2: They've grown up in the knowledge of my innocence, and
27:01
Speaker 2: I've spent all their inheritance on trying to prove we've
27:04
Speaker 2: lost You think I'm going to turn around now and
27:06
Speaker 2: say I did it, And I think that's to your point.
27:10
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I agree with you there, Adam, about those
27:13
Speaker 4: comments he made about that murderer, and that's what I
27:16
Speaker 4: say as well. I think they have denied it for
27:18
Speaker 4: so long that they actually start believing their own lie
27:21
Speaker 4: and they cannot and will not admit to what they've done.
27:27
Speaker 1: Which brings us back to Mercury.
27:29
Speaker 2: Jeremy Buckingham, the new South Wales politician, has recently named
27:33
Speaker 2: him in the Parliament I'm not one hundred percent sure
27:36
Speaker 2: that's going to do much good.
27:38
Speaker 1: It certainly puts pressure on him. You've met Mercury, you
27:42
Speaker 1: interviewed him.
27:43
Speaker 2: Do you think he's ever likely to reinstate his confession
27:47
Speaker 2: that he did, in fact abduct and kill Sheryl Grimmer.
27:51
Speaker 4: I don't believe we'll ever hear a peep out of
27:53
Speaker 4: him again. He was in custody for nearly two years
27:56
Speaker 4: pro prior to going to the Supreme Court. Now, when
27:59
Speaker 4: I arrested him back in two thousand and seventeen, I
28:03
Speaker 4: had him in custody at Frankston Station whilst we finished
28:07
Speaker 4: our interviews and while preparing some paperwork to go to
28:10
Speaker 4: court for the extradition later that afternoon. So we had
28:12
Speaker 4: a number of hours in the cell area. And now
28:16
Speaker 4: this is the person I've just mind you. I've just
28:18
Speaker 4: told them when I'm flowing down there at the meeting
28:20
Speaker 4: that you're under a rest for murder and I intend
28:22
Speaker 4: to charge you with murder today and I intend to
28:25
Speaker 4: drag you back to New South Wales tomorrow morning to
28:27
Speaker 4: face the court. And yet he goes into custody and
28:31
Speaker 4: he said, coolest coul come any of the custodial staff
28:34
Speaker 4: have ever witnessed if someone was innocent, I would expect
28:38
Speaker 4: them to be crawling up the wall and trying to
28:40
Speaker 4: dig their way out and yeeling obscenity saying they're innocent.
28:44
Speaker 1: None of this ever happened.
28:45
Speaker 4: And I don't believe even after two years in custody,
28:49
Speaker 4: he's never come after me for a wrongful arrest or
28:52
Speaker 4: wrongfull incarceration, passed the magistrate and went to court, then
28:56
Speaker 4: it was deemed enough evidence to go to a trial.
28:59
Speaker 4: So he's never never said boo, And I don't know why.
29:03
Speaker 4: And I don't believe all to make a noise because
29:07
Speaker 4: if he makes a noise, then there'll be a meter
29:09
Speaker 4: on top of him all my straightaway.
29:13
Speaker 2: Because you've read that. We've all read the confessional, I guess,
29:18
Speaker 2: and it's highly detailed. You corroborated key elements of it.
29:23
Speaker 2: I don't think you've got any doubt that he was
29:25
Speaker 2: the killer. And yet it seems like the cases at
29:29
Speaker 2: a standstill, to the point where you interviewed another witness
29:33
Speaker 2: who was a young boy at the time back in
29:35
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy, who believed he saw Mercury walking away from
29:40
Speaker 2: the beach with.
29:41
Speaker 1: Eryl in his arms.
29:44
Speaker 2: He came forward and wanted to give evidence, and it
29:47
Speaker 2: seems like New South Wales police are not interested in
29:51
Speaker 2: his evidence.
29:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I was aware of that.
29:54
Speaker 4: Information came from another podcast and I was given this
29:58
Speaker 4: person's details. I rang him and I struck a rapport
30:02
Speaker 4: with him, so much so that I said, look, would
30:04
Speaker 4: you be willing? I said, I'm retired now. I said,
30:07
Speaker 4: I can't come and see, but I'm retired. I do
30:09
Speaker 4: know the officers in charge up at the Unsold Thomicide
30:12
Speaker 4: Squad and some very good officers there, and so would
30:15
Speaker 4: you be comfortable with if I provided your details to them?
30:18
Speaker 4: And he said, yes, you would. So I contacted Detective
30:22
Speaker 4: Chief Inspector Dave laidel Or from the Unsold Homicide Squad.
30:25
Speaker 4: I know Dave from over many decades from working not
30:29
Speaker 4: with him, but on cases etc. These particulars were taken
30:32
Speaker 4: and I've only to find out recently that apparently not
30:36
Speaker 4: even a statement's been taken from him. So I'm a
30:39
Speaker 4: sort of a bit loss as to why that hasn't happened.
30:42
Speaker 2: Well, I made some inquiries about it and was told
30:45
Speaker 2: by a senior homicide detective that they were concerned that
30:48
Speaker 2: with the absence of contemporaneous notes or anything to corroborate
30:52
Speaker 2: his observations, he would get torn up in the box
30:56
Speaker 2: in cross examination.
30:57
Speaker 1: Put yourself back in the job.
30:59
Speaker 2: Would you be confident to put a witness up in
31:02
Speaker 2: such a critical case like this where there are was
31:05
Speaker 2: it contemporaneous notes or some way of independently corroborating his testimony.
31:10
Speaker 1: Well, that's really matter for the court.
31:12
Speaker 4: That's a matter for the prosecutor and the defense to
31:14
Speaker 4: make those decisions. And I don't believe pleage should be
31:17
Speaker 4: start getting involved being a judged during executioner as to
31:21
Speaker 4: what's going to happen in a trial. I just believe
31:23
Speaker 4: if you're honest and telling the truth before a jury,
31:26
Speaker 4: the jury will see it and they will hear it.
31:28
Speaker 4: And I don't go into the fact that he might
31:30
Speaker 4: get tailed up in the court as a witness. Well,
31:33
Speaker 4: we don't know that, and don't make those presumptions. It
31:36
Speaker 4: may happen, it may not happen. And yet a jury
31:39
Speaker 4: might be able to see that look in the absence
31:41
Speaker 4: of any notes, etc. Or what it might have been
31:43
Speaker 4: associated what you saw or what you heard on the day.
31:47
Speaker 4: Let it fully qualified jury and who are briefed according
31:51
Speaker 4: by the Crown to understand that this is the person
31:53
Speaker 4: that's going to come forward after many, many decades and
31:57
Speaker 4: no there are no associated notes or etc.
32:00
Speaker 1: But listen to his evidence.
32:01
Speaker 4: And I don't want to go in to start saying, well,
32:04
Speaker 4: watch should go into a trial and what should be
32:07
Speaker 4: included and what should be excluded. That's not my decision.
32:10
Speaker 4: I'm a seeker of truth, a secer of fact for
32:14
Speaker 4: the prosecution and the courts, the seeker of the truth.
32:17
Speaker 4: So I don't want my jobs to be anywhere mixed
32:20
Speaker 4: up with the judicial process as to what a good
32:23
Speaker 4: investigator should be doing.
32:25
Speaker 2: So you're saying, leave the prosecuting to the prosecutor, and
32:29
Speaker 2: don't second guess what's going to happen, don't.
32:31
Speaker 4: Second guess what may happen, and have those concerns that
32:34
Speaker 4: you're not going to take a statement from this person
32:37
Speaker 4: because he'll get torn up in the witness box and
32:40
Speaker 4: it'll look bad for us. That's a judicial process that
32:44
Speaker 4: should be not even entering in the minds of a
32:46
Speaker 4: good investigator.
32:48
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what your former colleagues in this above
32:52
Speaker 2: police must shudder when they hear your name came in
32:55
Speaker 2: and there's nothing more X than an ex detective. Do
32:58
Speaker 2: you have much contact with them these days? You don't
33:01
Speaker 2: spare them. You certainly give them a good bollocking when
33:03
Speaker 2: they need it well and rightly so.
33:07
Speaker 4: And you know I've copped criticism, tell you, but I
33:09
Speaker 4: recently had lunch with some wonderful gentleman and I'm sure
33:12
Speaker 4: that they won't mind me if I mentioned their names.
33:14
Speaker 4: Dennis Spray, in charge of the Kerry Wheeland investigation, and
33:18
Speaker 4: she was kidnapped from paramatter. Pans Rupp, a former ex
33:21
Speaker 4: homicide and good old hard style cop. Those sort of guys,
33:27
Speaker 4: Mark Sweeney, who was a very very experienced crime scene examiner,
33:31
Speaker 4: and Brenton Lee, Chief Inspector Brenton Lee who's an old
33:33
Speaker 4: knock about detective as well. And these guys are all retired,
33:37
Speaker 4: and they're the sort of guys that when I was
33:40
Speaker 4: in the coops, that I looked up to.
33:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
33:43
Speaker 2: I've spoken to a couple of those gents. I won't
33:45
Speaker 2: specify which one about a particular case. And here's words
33:48
Speaker 2: to me about getting involved, actually not getting involved in
33:51
Speaker 2: a podcast about this word to say, I don't want
33:53
Speaker 2: to get ahead of the plow. I don't want to
33:55
Speaker 2: get it ahead of the machinery of guy. I don't
33:57
Speaker 2: want to possibly prejudice an investigation.
34:00
Speaker 1: Do you ever worry that you don't know what you
34:03
Speaker 1: don't know?
34:03
Speaker 2: There could be things going on with witnesses and things
34:05
Speaker 2: that you could be obstructing.
34:09
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and what I do.
34:11
Speaker 4: With any of the producers I work with, I make
34:13
Speaker 4: sure that we're not going onto a subject which may
34:16
Speaker 4: be an active investigation. And I caution to that a
34:21
Speaker 4: lot of the times, and to say I think we
34:23
Speaker 4: should go back and do something different, or you know,
34:26
Speaker 4: this is what you should do at the moment, leave
34:27
Speaker 4: this alone to see what happens, because and I know
34:30
Speaker 4: things might be happening in the background, And I certainly
34:32
Speaker 4: don't want to jeopardize or ruin the integrity of a
34:36
Speaker 4: current investigation that may be fruitful and in evidence at
34:41
Speaker 4: the latter stage, which I don't want to interrupt or
34:44
Speaker 4: give it a Hopefully that information will go through, and
34:48
Speaker 4: I don't want to interrupt it and spoil what's happening.
34:52
Speaker 2: As we speak today. The general Grammer case is at
34:55
Speaker 2: a standstill. If they don't interview this witness and take
34:58
Speaker 2: his evidence and try to go forward again. What happens
35:01
Speaker 2: with that case, I mean there is a limit, like
35:04
Speaker 2: you never give up, but you do eventually run out
35:07
Speaker 2: of things to do. What can happen with this case
35:09
Speaker 2: to take it forward again?
35:11
Speaker 4: Well yet again, Adam, if someone was there that particular
35:14
Speaker 4: day and have been afraid to come forward after despite
35:18
Speaker 4: number of media requests and public statements about this, if
35:21
Speaker 4: they now feel the strong enough now to come forward.
35:25
Speaker 4: And it's about partnerships as well. So someone may have
35:27
Speaker 4: been in a relationship with someone at the time that
35:30
Speaker 4: may be very suspicious of their behavior and they're afraid
35:33
Speaker 4: to speak up because of their loyalty to that person.
35:36
Speaker 4: Now it may be the case today that those loyalties
35:39
Speaker 4: no longer exist and they are now free to come
35:43
Speaker 4: forward without fear of being harassed, etc.
35:45
Speaker 1: Or threatened.
35:46
Speaker 4: The perpetrator may have passed away, so there's no further
35:49
Speaker 4: fear of anything. But I just hope that someone in
35:52
Speaker 4: their mind and surely someone would know something about this
35:56
Speaker 4: to come forward. And what happens then it regnites the investigation,
36:00
Speaker 4: It gets a second win, and you start going back
36:02
Speaker 4: into it again. And I just believe I think a
36:05
Speaker 4: lot of these matters instead of just selling them they
36:07
Speaker 4: are certainly solvable.
36:11
Speaker 2: How much do the individual detectives who are still working
36:14
Speaker 2: on these cases, how much capacity and independence do they have?
36:18
Speaker 2: Do they just follow orders? Or can they get a
36:21
Speaker 2: new piece of information and run with it? And you know,
36:24
Speaker 2: to hell with any criticism they might get from their bosses,
36:28
Speaker 2: I'll look for a start.
36:29
Speaker 4: I think you normally have a very good relationship with
36:31
Speaker 4: your superior it's normally a detective inspector, and you brief
36:35
Speaker 4: them on a weekly basis, you know, not only in
36:37
Speaker 4: a written form but also verbally, and you'll suggest some
36:40
Speaker 4: ideas to them. And you know, obviously it's on a
36:42
Speaker 4: budget as well, so we just can't go around, will
36:45
Speaker 4: you nearly spending the public coin on trips away, etc.
36:48
Speaker 4: But if I've got an avenue of a way that
36:50
Speaker 4: I think the investigation should run, this is what I
36:53
Speaker 4: would speak with my commander and then normally.
36:56
Speaker 1: He would trust me to do what I'd want to do.
36:58
Speaker 4: And that was a good thing about the DAWs In case,
37:00
Speaker 4: because even though I had a couple of people say
37:03
Speaker 4: to me you shouldn't be doing it, you know you've
37:04
Speaker 4: moved on out from that area. Is not in our
37:06
Speaker 4: patch anymore. Well, I said, well, it doesn't matter. I
37:08
Speaker 4: joined the new so Well's plays force, not I didn't
37:10
Speaker 4: join for the postcode. So that was sort of my
37:12
Speaker 4: answer back that normally have a very good relationship and
37:16
Speaker 4: atronic trust issue as well, and.
37:18
Speaker 1: Your team as well. You listen to your team.
37:20
Speaker 4: When you're running a team, you have a consensus as
37:23
Speaker 4: to what's to be done.
37:25
Speaker 2: In the case of Sheryl Grimmer, you got I think
37:27
Speaker 2: it was thirty phone books worth of evidence and reviewed
37:30
Speaker 2: it all and you found new material in there.
37:34
Speaker 1: And I fear that without a continual.
37:37
Speaker 2: Review process of these high profile cases, they will finally
37:41
Speaker 2: get to a stage of being unsolvable. And I look
37:45
Speaker 2: at some of the grains of that case. For instance,
37:48
Speaker 2: that Mercury goes to mister Lecky who's running the boy's
37:52
Speaker 2: home where he's staying, and says, I've got something to
37:55
Speaker 2: tell you about this case. He's also with other boys
37:59
Speaker 2: in that boy's home. I presume he's told other people.
38:03
Speaker 2: Is there a case to go back to whatever records
38:07
Speaker 2: might be available back in the day and say maybe
38:11
Speaker 2: there was somebody in the room like mister Lecky when
38:15
Speaker 2: this interview was done, or indeed other boys who that
38:20
Speaker 2: Mercury may have told about the evidence back then.
38:23
Speaker 1: Yes, well we did that back in the day.
38:25
Speaker 4: We made a public appeal for any inmates or the
38:28
Speaker 4: carry On Boys home up there at Gosford where Mercury
38:31
Speaker 4: was incarcerated for a short time.
38:33
Speaker 1: I tried to mister Lecky had passed away.
38:35
Speaker 4: He would have been one hundred and ten I think
38:37
Speaker 4: back in twenty sixteen, so he's obviously not around. But
38:40
Speaker 4: I tried to find if he had any diaries around
38:43
Speaker 4: to go through. And unfortunately, because of lapse of time,
38:45
Speaker 4: those diaries don't exist any longer because a statute period
38:49
Speaker 4: of gone and they could be destroyed. And also I
38:51
Speaker 4: went to a detective Phil Finlay, who was a typist
38:54
Speaker 4: on that record of interview with Mercury back in nineteen
38:56
Speaker 4: seventy one, and I went through him closely. I said,
38:59
Speaker 4: you know, was there anyone else in that room that
39:01
Speaker 4: you can think? Obviously there was Danny, Joe and I.
39:03
Speaker 4: So it was Joe Parrington and Phil Fiah. So we
39:06
Speaker 4: did that groundwork and there was some success in relation
39:09
Speaker 4: to the media release about the carry On inmates at
39:13
Speaker 4: the time, and we did that for a particular reason.
39:15
Speaker 4: We wanted to know some certain things about what media
39:19
Speaker 4: articles were allowed into the center in that period that
39:22
Speaker 4: Mercury was incarcerated, and that was it came in our
39:26
Speaker 4: favor that there was basically nothing allowed in there.
39:29
Speaker 1: So you've covered the avenues, then I wonder what else
39:31
Speaker 1: has left.
39:31
Speaker 2: I guess you don't know what you don't know, And
39:33
Speaker 2: as you say, there could be someone out there still
39:35
Speaker 2: who for whatever reason, has not revealed what they have
39:39
Speaker 2: to offer.
39:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, look that.
39:41
Speaker 4: We're not talking about the carry on voice home was
39:43
Speaker 4: about the fact that I wanted to know if any
39:46
Speaker 4: newspapers were delivered there where the inmates could read, and
39:48
Speaker 4: they had a story about Cheryl Grimmer, because if it,
39:51
Speaker 4: in fact that Mercury made all it up because he'd
39:53
Speaker 4: read it in a newspaper some sixteen months later, was
39:57
Speaker 4: it still going around? So I did some also some
40:00
Speaker 4: checks by the police mediaty in it to see what
40:02
Speaker 4: was in the newspaper sixteen months later, and there's nothing
40:04
Speaker 4: about Cherold Grim or whatsoever. So I know that from
40:08
Speaker 4: these superintendents and some of the inmates that the boys
40:10
Speaker 4: saime that they were not allowed to watch TV, only
40:14
Speaker 4: one movie on a Sunday night if they were of
40:16
Speaker 4: good behavior. So there was no TV in the dorms
40:19
Speaker 4: or in the rooms with news. There's certainly nothing being
40:22
Speaker 4: shown about Eryl Grimmer's disappearance from.
40:25
Speaker 1: Ferry Meadow Beach the year before.
40:27
Speaker 4: So I was confident that when Mercury was telling us,
40:30
Speaker 4: as told Parrington and Finlay the story back in nineteen
40:33
Speaker 4: seventy one, that we had the right person.
40:36
Speaker 2: Yes, So I also fear that you can't repair mistakes
40:41
Speaker 2: of the past, because the detectives back in the day
40:45
Speaker 2: dismissed the confession, didn't they They didn't take it seriously.
40:48
Speaker 1: They thought he was an attention seeker. They could have.
40:50
Speaker 2: Gone back to him another year or two later, maybe
40:53
Speaker 2: done some more work on that confession, but they didn't.
40:55
Speaker 2: Is it possible to fix those sort of mistakes decades later?
41:00
Speaker 4: Difficult now? But I know that the type of film.
41:03
Speaker 4: Finlay was a detective constable first class us. He said
41:06
Speaker 4: it was had it been his decision, he would have
41:08
Speaker 4: charged him, but it wasn't. Joe was a sergeant, and
41:12
Speaker 4: back in the seventies, a sergeant was like God. So
41:14
Speaker 4: he either said no, it's either my way or the highway.
41:17
Speaker 4: So it wasn't that was missed. But surprisingly enough, also
41:21
Speaker 4: when the running sheet attached to that confession, Parrington said
41:24
Speaker 4: that Mercury remained a person of interest, but there was
41:28
Speaker 4: nothing ever done after that day.
41:30
Speaker 2: I wonder when you wake up in the middle of
41:32
Speaker 2: the night sometimes and think to yourself, what if, and
41:36
Speaker 2: the thought crosses your mind that he gets away with murder,
41:40
Speaker 2: then he leaves the state, he leaves a low profile
41:44
Speaker 2: guy that he may have been involved in other offenses
41:48
Speaker 2: down here in Victoria.
41:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's always concerning for me.
41:53
Speaker 4: And even though I was a cop for a long
41:55
Speaker 4: time and I'm not I'm retired now, it's only been
41:58
Speaker 4: four years, but I still think about this, you know,
42:00
Speaker 4: nearly every second day about did we do the right thing?
42:03
Speaker 4: You know, what did we miss etc. And I don't
42:06
Speaker 4: think we missed anything. I was confident that the investigation
42:09
Speaker 4: was pretty well thorough. Took us over to the United
42:12
Speaker 4: Kingdom to seek some manses from some witnesses on the
42:15
Speaker 4: beach that day, so you know, we just didn't discard
42:18
Speaker 4: some evidents that we found. We actually went and sort
42:21
Speaker 4: it out and we found it, went over there and
42:23
Speaker 4: got the statements required and it's just one of those
42:26
Speaker 4: things that him. You know, there are people in this
42:28
Speaker 4: community that have unsolved homicides in this community, and those offenders,
42:34
Speaker 4: you know, they walk amongst us unfortunately.
42:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think once you've been a detective, you're
42:38
Speaker 2: always a detective.
42:39
Speaker 1: Friend of mine, dadd here Victoria homicide detective.
42:41
Speaker 2: He went to work as an undertaker and he's with
42:44
Speaker 2: the family of a deceased person and then chatting about things,
42:47
Speaker 2: and he says, I can't help with us. Do you
42:49
Speaker 2: think it was natural causes? The family was aghast. He
42:55
Speaker 2: didn't last long as a detective. Jemmy, if you're giving
42:58
Speaker 2: free advice, and he said, well, you said balls police
43:00
Speaker 2: about that case today.
43:01
Speaker 1: What would it be?
43:03
Speaker 4: Just re examine that record of interview. You go through
43:07
Speaker 4: it like a fine tooth came, like I did in Frank,
43:09
Speaker 4: and you'll see the glaring similarities of what happened that
43:13
Speaker 4: particular day, and it will only lead to one one
43:16
Speaker 4: suggestion and one thought that you had to be there
43:18
Speaker 4: at the beach on that day to see what had
43:21
Speaker 4: happened and for to be told that after forty nine
43:24
Speaker 4: years later, that person told me in Frank in the
43:27
Speaker 4: record of interview, I conducted with him at Frankston to say,
43:31
Speaker 4: I've never been to that beach in my life.
43:34
Speaker 1: It's not a bulls hit.
43:36
Speaker 2: Good advice. Let's hope they take it. Damian, thanks for
43:38
Speaker 2: your time today and thanks for your service. Thank you,
43:40
Speaker 2: Adam lovely always to talk to you. Let's Damien Lon,
43:47
Speaker 2: retired detective New South Wales Police. The Sheryl rumorcase is one.
43:51
Speaker 2: I think that he's not going to go away, but
43:54
Speaker 2: you have to keep working on it and never give up.
43:56
Speaker 2: That's the motto and this There's always someone out there
43:58
Speaker 2: who knows something and maybe you can help on this
44:00
Speaker 2: case or others. You can always call Crimes Stopers one
44:03
Speaker 2: of under Triple three Trip zero. If you don't trust
44:06
Speaker 2: the cops, you can always send me an email Adam
44:08
Speaker 2: Shand writer at gmail dot com. But don't sit on
44:10
Speaker 2: good information, please say something. Thanks for listening. This has
44:14
Speaker 2: been Adam Shan for Real Crime.
44:25
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