Latest / Success Story with Scott Clary / Ken Coleman - 3x Bestselling Author, Speaker & Executive Coach | Find The Work You’re Wired To Do

Transcript

Ken Coleman - 3x Bestselling Author, Speaker & Executive Coach | Find The Work You’re Wired To Do · Success Story with Scott Clary

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  What I believe after coaching 10,000 people is what we're really
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  desiring. It's not about great things, but unique.
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  Ken Coleman. You have engine. So that's what we got to figure out.
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  Deepest heart design. In 2005, with no experience, no degree, but a vision
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  burning inside him, he dove headfirst into the world of radio,
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  podcasting and public speaking. From high school football on a country station
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  to interviewing icons like Dave Ramsey. Now as a best-selling author and
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  co-host of the second largest syndicated tool radio show in America,
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  welcome to the story of a dream pursued and a purposeful set.
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  Our greatness lies within our unique. We want to feel as though our day at work
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  that we are doing something that we are good at. We are doing something we enjoy
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  and we are producing a result that matters. This is what we want and we want to be
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  recognized for it. Using what I do best to do something I enjoy to produce a
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  result I care deeply about. Talent plus passion plus mission equals
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  purpose because I believe in five minutes I've explained what is one of the
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  most complex questions in the world to answer. Why am I here? What should I do in my life?
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  Use what you do best to do something you enjoy. To produce results you care
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  the more you serve your team, the better you serve your team, the better the
• 1:16
  collective unit can serve the customer. Now that's a win. Your capacity to grow
• 1:21
  is completely based on your belief in your potential.
• 1:28
  Welcome to success story. I'm your host, Scott Clary. The success story podcast is part
• 1:33
  of the HubSpot podcast network. I am a huge fan of HubSpot because they support
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  entrepreneurs. A lot of entrepreneurs, founders, executives, listen to this show,
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  and for entrepreneurs that are trying to build, I have a question for you.
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  Does it feel like your teams are getting pulled in a million different directions? When
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  Ken, thank you for jumping on. I really appreciate your time and excited to do this.
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  It's going to be a lot of fun. So, you know, throughout your career, you've had multiple
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  seasons to your career, but right now you basically help people live their best lives,
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  your coach, your best-selling author, your leveling people up across, you know, work,
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  life, purpose, all of it. So, I want to go into tons of things that you coach people on and you
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  do the live coaching, which obviously before we jumped on, I was a big fan of just understanding your
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  style of contact because it's not easy to do. But let's sort of back it up a little bit.
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  If you look back, childhood, early career, what was that, what was that inflection point to sort
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  of push you down this path? Yeah, my dad loved history. So, history was always around me.
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  Great men, great women, people that he looked up to, so he talked about it, so he was a lover of
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  history. And then he was very intentional to always talk to my brother and I about finding our
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  calling. It was just something that was talked about all the time. And you take those two influences
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  and the way I wrote about it years later, I thanked him in my first book, one question, as I
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  think my dad for instilling in me a love of people who made history and a desire to make history
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  myself. That's the way I described. And that really when you said inflection to me, I think that's
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  a great way of wording. It was those two influences because when you are very aware of people in history
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  and we could just cut a classify for this audience, great men and women who've done great things
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  and reading biographies, that's history. And great moments in history were transformative
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  things happened to make the world a better place. Certainly in the American context, we have a lot
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  less of that history. But throughout history, world history, American history, you can see that.
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  And so when you appreciate that, I think it has a organic effect on you to go, where do I fit
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  in this whole deal? And how can I make the world a better place? I don't have to be a world
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  changer. But can I be a positive influence? And I think that just is a natural byproduct of
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  paying attention to history. And you know, everybody's wired differently. You had half the audience
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  is like, I'm math and science and the other half of us are like, I kind of like in the history
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  and in the verbal the word. So I think that depends on what your jam is. But I also love history
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  and I kind of just fell right into that. My dad's love. I adopted that, if you will. And did again,
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  and then on top of that, he was always challenging us to be our best, to make a difference in the
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  world to find your calling. And when you're young and you hear that feel it, then you either reject
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  that and go, that's nonsense or that's too much pressure. And I just accepted it. And I've
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  just been wired that way. I mean, I'm just telling you, man, I like, I was 10 years old first time
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  I saw Ronald Reagan speak. And I'm not in any way being political here. But I was in the
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  hammered by him accepting the nomination of the public convention and giving this speech and
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  this very positive outlook speech. And I as a 10 year old, I was like, that dude's cool. So I'm
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  probably a little different and a little more of an old soul. My nickname in college was 40.
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  They called me 40 because I was reading newspaper. So I'm going probably a little bit too deep. But
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  that's just my disposition, very much affected by my environment. And so I think that's what set
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  me on the path to I want to make sure that I suck the marrow out of life that comes from one of my
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  all-time favorite movies, probably Williams starred in, played Professor Keating. And he has those
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  young men leaning to that trophy case. And he says, he's talking about sucking the marrow out of
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  life. I was like, that movie really affected me. So that's just kind of how the way I'm wired.
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  You know, you touched on something because I didn't know you were going to go there. But that resonates
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  that resonates so much with me when you look at people that have built incredible things through
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  history. I've never looked at it through that lens. But I adopt a very similar mindset of if
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  somebody else has been able to do it, I can do it too. I have to reverse engineer how they achieve
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  that. But there's opportunity there. When you look at the people that you coach and help and speak
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  with today, do you feel like there is a larger gap in where they are now and what they think they
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  can achieve than maybe even there was historically in the past 50 years? What's the the enthusiasm
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  towards accomplishing great things? I think it's less about accomplishing great things, although that's
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  exactly how every one of them would word it. So you're spot on. But what I believe after coaching
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  10,000 people is what we're really desiring. It's not about great things, but unique things.
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  In other words, we all desire to make our mark. And Scott, your mark is very different than my mark.
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  And if we are truly authentic in awareness of who we are and what our mark is, then it will in
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  fact, by definition be unique. You and I could be in the exact same field. But because of our
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  uniqueness, our contribution will be unique. So I think we all think what we want to be great,
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  but what I really think we want is to be unique. And I think we want to find our niche. We want to
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  fill it. And that is in fact great. In other words, our greatness lies within our unique.
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  So the great impact for a young girl who grows up, maybe a small town on all she ever wanted to be
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  as a kindergarten teacher. And she goes for it. And she does it. And she's the best kindergarten
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  teacher that this community's ever seen. And she has impact on these kids. And they come back to her
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  years later, you know, that's greatness. But it's not greatness in the definition of what society
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  tends to use the label of great for, which is power, uh, wealth,
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  notoriety, or fame. So I think what we want more of is we all don't want power. We all don't want
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  you know, notoriety. Many people do, but not everybody. They get ready kind of wants some wealth,
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  right? That's that, but that's all about freedom and autonomy. So I think that that's what I've
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  seen. And, and so to the heart of your question, where is the gap? And the gap is confident.
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  The gap is confident from where I am now, where I want to be. You build that bridge
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  through confidence. Uh, confidence spins off courage. But it is only after we are confident
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  in who we are, what we want to do, where we can do it, how we can get there. Confidence in that,
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  that's what spins off courage. And so that bridge is built with clarity first. The more clear I
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  am to get the answers to those questions I just went through, then my confidence goes up because I
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  now can see to your point, okay, I can do something great just like these people. This, you know,
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  it's about all of a sudden confidence comes up in that gap where we are, where we want to be.
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  It's like the bridge comes rising up on the back of clarity. And then we can walk confidently
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  forward. And then when life throws the tough stuff at us, the delays, the rejections, the failures.
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  We have a courage to keep going because we're rooted in this radical clarity of who we are,
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  uniqueness, where we want to go. That's that sense of mission and value, where we can do it,
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  how we can do it, all that kind of stuff, those questions. And that's what gets us to where we want.
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  Talk to me just so people understand because they're, they're listening to what you're saying.
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  They're trying to understand how they can achieve this in their own life. And I find some of
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  the best ways to do it is to walk through, for example, how you came to this confidence and clarity,
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  because this is not your first version of your career. This took years to discover. That's right.
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  Well, so for me, excuse me, so for me, I was in a season of life in my early 30s where
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  I made a departure from this, this direction, this path that I had been on since the age of 16.
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  And that was, I really felt my calling was to serve the public as an elected official.
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  So governor, senator, you know, whatever, you know, I'm here to talk at 16 years. So you're
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  thinking, I got a shot at the White House, you know. And so in my early 30s, a distaste for
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  the political system as a whole led me to a real crisis of belief. In other words,
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  do I believe that that's what I'm actually supposed to do in a game of conclusion?
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  Not right now. And maybe not. So now what? And so that's a very disconcerting feeling to be on
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  this one path for a long time and all of a sudden come to a clear realization. That's not the path.
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  So what path is it? And so I was friends with a couple of really awesome executive coaches
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  that I had gotten to know and they gave me their materials. They were like, these guys were
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  partners and they were like, Hey, you can figure this out on your own. They quite frankly knew I
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  could afford their services. So they need their life mapping material. And I did the life mapping.
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  In other words, I went back and I was in a place of confusion. Where am I supposed to be if not
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  here, which way? And I went back in the process of I looked at what I'm really good at begin to look
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  at. Okay, what do I know? My whole life, I've been complimented for this, this, and this, you know,
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  you begin to gather the facts. And so I'm really talented at these things. This is my bucket. It's
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  not a big bucket. But I got a clear bucket. And that's not false humility, but I am not the
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  most talented guy. But I have a couple of really good power tools. And I realize that. So I,
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  okay, that's good. And then I begin to go back and look at what's moved my heart.
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  What made me angry? What made me sad? What made me happy? You know, I'm looking for clues throughout
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  my life because that gives you a sense of what you care deeply about. And so begin to gather
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  that information. And that got me to a place where I realized I'm good at communicating.
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  And I really enjoy the performative nature of that. In other words, the pressure piece.
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  And I care deeply about people. So that's all I really knew as I'm doing this life mapping.
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  Those, those clear themes were coming at. And so as I begin to wrestle with it more and I'm
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  making a very long story as short as possible. That's how I was able to determine that broadcasting
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  was a similar path to being a politician. A different application of what I'm good at.
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  But there were similarities in what I care deeply about, which was the people component.
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  That grew up at a small church home. My dad was a pastor of a very small church. We were
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  in lower middle class. I watched my mom and dad serve and love people for all races,
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  all backgrounds. They, they, this was not a mega church. This was real church. I call this
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  real church loving and serving on people. My dad would clean the toilets on Saturday and
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  preach on Sunday. I saw two people who cared about people. The true, true representation
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  of what Christianity should be about. They just loving on people, man. It didn't matter what you
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  had done in your life. They were like, God loves you. We love you. Come on. And that developed in
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  me a real sense of loving and caring and coaching and cheering people on. So those were the
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  early themes. And I was like, okay, if I can broadcast to do that, that's why I didn't go to
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  sports broadcasting. I dabbled in it. But the sports broadcasting was missing the serving people
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  piece. And so I was like, okay, the Dave Ramses of the world and some of these podcasts early
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  I was like, that's what I want. I want a broadcast to help people. And so that's kind of how I
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  began on the journey. You know, there's, you mentioned something because even when you went on
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  this journey and you found all these different components of what you wanted to include in your
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  in your in your vocation and your job and your life, there's still so many outlets for that. I mean,
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  like broadcast is like 70% aligned. And then there's all and then maybe a fun podcast could be 80%
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  aligned. And then maybe live coaching is like 90 to 95% aligned. But even doing the work.
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  Like the the fact that you were able to get to the point where you could look at this
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  plethora of different careers and then start to see where you wanted to fit, that's already more
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  work than most people do in their entire life. And you probably see this all the time. And I'm
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  I'm just I'm very curious. In this post COVID gig economy, people were laid off and in masses,
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  people are comparing themselves to individuals on social media. I would assume that a lot of the
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  people that you deal with are just tired, stressed, depressed, confused. What is the climate like
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  right now for a for the majority of professionals and people that are just trying to figure out
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  their life? Is it seem like this? Am I correct in assuming that it's much worse than it was five
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  years ago, like you have your front line. So I'm just I'm trying to understand where people are at
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  in 2024. Yeah. Well, simple answer is the data is showing us that the world of work is getting worse.
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  And okay, this is Gallup. I mean, Gallup is the gold standard I read everything Gallup puts out
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  every year. They put out a state of the America workplace and I read through it like it's the
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  Bible because it's the Bible as it relates to what America workers are saying. So there's no question
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  that the environment of work, that's what I mean when I straight world of work, it's gotten worse.
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  There are a variety of reasons for that. And I could go down any tributary you want,
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  but to answer your question very specifically, yeah, it's worse. And so what people want is autonomy.
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  Now, autonomy, fancy word, just means freedom. And you know, Jefferson wrote in the Declaration
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  of Independence, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. He stole the idea of the pursuit of
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  happiness. That was not that was not his wording. He got that from John Locke, great British
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  enlightenment thinker, Locke got it from Socrates and Plato and all of the Stoics. I mean, so this idea
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  of the pursuit of happiness tied to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, it's all one phrase.
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  So he says life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, liberty is very much tied to pursuit of
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  happiness. And what he was saying comes from again, all these great enlightenment thinkers and I've
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  read all this stuff. So I don't want to nerd out too much on this. But that's where we see and
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  understand autonomy. I want to live my life. One of the top five regrets of the dying
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  as as written in a runaway bestseller by an Australian hospice nurse was I didn't live the life
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  that was really true to what I wanted to live. So when I say autonomy, I want to back
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  I've given you context that let's get back right into it. Okay.
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  We want to feel as though our day at work that we are doing something that we are good at. We
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  are doing something we enjoy and we are producing a result that matters. This is what we want.
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  And we want to be recognized for it. So to the extent that that's not
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  a present opportunity for workers. That's why we see the data year after year after year from
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  Gallup. It's a 68% of the American workforce is not engaged. It doesn't mean they hate their job.
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  They're just not engaged. That's why quite quitting took off that turn because people just went
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  you just described in one sentence how I feel. I'm going to do adequate jobs so I don't get fired
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  but I'm not coming in fired up ready to go like you'd see a professional football player
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  or professional athlete that's coming in at 5 a.m. to hit the gym studying film all day alone.
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  Why does it why does an NFL player do that? They love the game. They love the game. They want
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  to be good at the game. They want to stay at the top. All right. There are American workers that
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  are like that but the majority are not 68% says that the majority are just kind of making it through.
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  The reason behind that is the context that I just gave you a couple of minutes ago.
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  And inherently we desire to make a mark and we want to be recognized for that mark and
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  we want to care about that mark. And so it's gotten worse. It's gotten worse and worse and worse
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  because we have a leadership crisis in the American workforce because the the M.O. and American
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  work is you know a good job and keep doing a good job and at some point I got to promote you
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  and after about two or three promotions I put you in a leadership position that you might not want.
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  You might not be wired to do it and we're not even going to train you how to do it.
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  And so this keeps perpetuating itself but we wonder why people don't want to go into work.
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  So I gave you a lot there but I'm trying to answer that as whole listening. No, no, I appreciate it.
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  I'm just taking it all in and I'm just thinking about different ways to take this and I want to
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  I really want to take it in the way that will hopefully help the most people possible that are listening
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  to this and like putting your hand up and saying yes that's me. What do I do? But you speak a lot
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  about finding purpose. So again as a broadcaster and radio and broadcaster yourself you know that
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  two prong questions are definitely not supposed to be a thing but I do have a two prong question
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  because I think it's important to give some context. So first thought is you speak a lot about
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  finding purpose. Do you think that and this is just more me being curious than anything? Do you
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  think that the issue with people or not being able to find purpose is that they are fed the lie
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  of I have to achieve greatness and not uniqueness that's the first part to the question
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  and then maybe is there a solution to that but that's a much broader thought and then the second
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  part to that question is okay how does somebody tactically start to find purpose which is probably
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  what you deal with every single day. Yeah, all right so first part there's no question that when
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  all we're thinking about is greatness in the terms of how culture gives it to us and quicker
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  view is that it's power prestige or how many people know my name how many followers likes I get
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  and then well way more money than everybody else that becomes a very intimidating mountain decline.
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  So if all you're ever focused on is I gotta be great. I gotta achieve great in the in the lens of
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  these three categories that can be overwhelming it's like trying to climb Mount Everest with no
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  equipment and no training. It's impossible. So yes, the your first question the improper focus
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  on greatness as defined by those three adjectives or those categories is mind numbingly intimidating
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  for so many people they just go I can't do it look around me I can't be powerful I can't be rich
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  you know but I also don't like my current situation and that's so now despair right I can't I
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  can't get a million followers on YouTube so despair sets in well now I have to accept average
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  or below average man that's debilitating stuff that is a huge problem now so the answer so
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  if I begin to focus on uniqueness and I go I came into this world hardwired with talents and things
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  that I do well and if I get some more education and some more experience I can turn that talent into
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  a sharpened skill so hands off to power saw all right and and if I discover how to use that talent
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  or skill in a way that I enjoy showing up but I'm creative and I've got great creative then I
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  learn how to be a creative and critical thinker and I go where all the ways I can use that and I go
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  okay I could do this now that doesn't interest me oh I can do design oh my god so I love doing this
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  type of thing with this talent and then we go what what what do I want to create with that
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  combination of talent and passion and that's that missional result and I'm spying myself being
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  on mission I want to create websites for products that I believe great what products do you believe
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  it I'm really into health and fitness great well now all of a sudden I take that talent and and I
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  and I do something I enjoy which is the graphic design but I'm doing graphic design that promotes
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  a product or service that I have a connection to I am on purpose I have no problem getting out of
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  bed on Monday morning because I'm using what I do best to do something I enjoy to produce a result
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  I care about let me say that again that's purpose using what I do best to do something I enjoy to
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  produce a result I care deeply about oh that's it that's the sound joy here I mean I'm just telling
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  you it's as simple as it gets and that's my methodology talent plus passion plus mission equals
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  purpose so to get to the second part of your question hit me with that one more time because I
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  want to make sure I heard it but I want to make sure I get the minutiae well no you actually you
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  really did answer the the first yeah you went into it it was really just what is the first step
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  that somebody can take towards figuring out what their purpose is once they understand that their
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  purpose doesn't have to be what society shoves down their throat okay your focus is not greatness
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  it's uniqueness and and and and when I focus on uniqueness and I gave you that this is how we figure
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  it out so that what I'm good at talent what I enjoy doing passion and results I care deeply about
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  mission when I understand that and we have a great assessment called the get clear assessment that
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  comes with the book fine to work your wire to do and I believe in the wiring those are the three
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  wires when I find that out it's got then I can look out into the workplace and I can look at
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  multiple job descriptions in multiple industries and go does that path allow me to use what I do
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  best to do what I enjoy to produce results that I care about and then all of a sudden remember I
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  talked earlier about that bridge between where we are or where we want to be well it relates to
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  finding purpose and work so that I can get great fulfillment and also make a good chunk of money
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  my my max whatever my max is is going to be built on using what you do best to do what you love
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  to produce results you care about that's where you're going to get your greatest performance greatest
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  engagement so that's the simple plan and it's duple because it's actually understandable my my if I
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  if I could stem my fingers I would put that curriculum in every school in America what I just
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  explain because I believe in five minutes I've explained what is one of the most complex questions
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  in the world to answer in such a simple way why am I here what should I do in my life use what
• 28:09
  you do best to do something you enjoy to produce results you care so here's going to have great
• 28:16
  proficiency tremendous passion meaning and money babe hey guys Scott here I just wanted to take
• 28:23
  a quick moment to say a heartfelt thanks to every single one of you six years of this show and it's
• 28:29
  really all because of you your listens your support your shares it will keep this thing going when
• 28:34
  I started I had no idea how big this would get how many lives we touch the stories we share the
• 28:40
  lessons that we learned together it's truly humbling and I believe that we're building something
• 28:44
  really special here a community where no one has to reinvent the wheel we're all in this together
• 28:50
  learning and growing and here's my ask if you love this show it's made a difference for you please
• 28:56
  share it with somebody who needs it hella friend host on social whatever works it's the best way
• 29:01
  to keep this thing going strong bring on even better guests and share more life changing wisdom
• 29:07
  and you can find us on all the spots so you can go to successstorypodcast.com if you like listening
• 29:12
  to podcasts if you like video you can go to youtube it's youtube.com slash c slash scott declary or
• 29:19
  the newsletter newsletter dot scott declary.com just spread the word I'm eternally grateful for each
• 29:26
  and every one of you let's keep learning let's keep growing and let's keep making this world
• 29:31
  a little bit better together all right let's get back to the show I also think that it's very
• 29:35
  important to highlight that you didn't just say go start a business it does this thing nothing
• 29:41
  to do with that at all might be your gig but it might not be yeah because guess why let's let's
• 29:45
  let's take that out I've done segments on my show where I'll talk about if you struggle with this
• 29:51
  this and this don't ever start a business in other words entrepreneurs are wired different
• 29:58
  entrepreneurs are wired with a specific set of talents hard skills and sauce skill heavy on the
• 30:04
  sauce skill they're just wired different and if you're not wired that way you shouldn't try to be an
• 30:10
  entrepreneur there's always this gap between like intrinsic motivation like you just mentioned and
• 30:17
  then these external extrinsic motivators like like money really is the main thing and I think that
• 30:25
  well we'll move on to something else that I want to beat this to death but I think that the issue
• 30:28
  that people have is they think that the only way to feel internally fulfilled and sort of go and
• 30:33
  bridge that gap is to build their own thing is to become an entrepreneur because they're also
• 30:39
  seemed again there seems to be this this hate for nine to five and w two and employment that I
• 30:45
  think is incorrect I also agree with you that not everybody should be an entrepreneur or even needs
• 30:49
  to be or even needs to adopt the version of entrepreneurship that seems to be this stand for dropout
• 30:55
  you know go balls to the wall hopefully you find a way to make money in the next six months and if
• 30:59
  not then you have to go back to work there's so many life is not so black and white that's that's
• 31:05
  the takeaway and I think there's a lot okay let's see where do we want to go next um you speak a lot
• 31:13
  about there's all these different leadership uh principles that you speak about and one thing
• 31:19
  that you speak about often is servant leadership and I think that's a very noble principle
• 31:25
  and it's important but let's talk about let's talk about maybe a contrarian view to that how to
• 31:31
  be a good leader when times are tough when things aren't working when the idealistic version of
• 31:38
  leadership doesn't exactly fit when shit's hitting the fan which is really when a leader has to show up
• 31:45
  and I'm asking this question because I think you can be a good leader in your own company maybe a good
• 31:50
  leader in your community in your workforce but I find that when leadership falters and we see
• 31:56
  that every level to the to the leaders of government and leaders of company leadership falters when
• 32:02
  things are hard not when things are easy so how do you walk through the idea of servant leadership
• 32:09
  or idealistic leadership in a tough situation when maybe you have to make hard decisions I love how
• 32:15
  you frame this I really do no one's ever asked it that way and I and I'm someone embrace your
• 32:20
  contrarian question and say um you can be a servant leader in the worst of times and I think it's
• 32:29
  the way you probably perceive servant leadership as it's idealistic and I'm going to say it's not
• 32:34
  idealistic it's actually the most practical style of leadership let me give a metaphor um
• 32:41
  I believe that the another metaphor besides servant could be coach if you lead like a coach
• 32:49
  I think it is still the essence of servant leadership I'll give you I'm going to give you to it
• 32:54
  at a time because I love how you've challenged that it's a good conversation I'm also going to
• 33:01
  throw out the metaphor of commander instead of coach we we I'm going to go the coach route the
• 33:07
  commander I'm going to give you both at the same time and I'm going to I believe prove to you that
• 33:10
  that is servant leadership so let's take the coach the hardest of time a team is in a losing
• 33:19
  street or a team has got a big game coming up all the marbles are riding on this fan base he may
• 33:26
  lose his job you know you know the pressures we can we get understand this and that coach
• 33:34
  has still got to serve his team so let's put it this way that coach has got to sit there in a very
• 33:41
  challenging time where a win a w is a must got to win hard times tough opponent three or four
• 33:52
  injuries are best players you get it it's just adversity everywhere that's what you're getting
• 33:57
  and you be a servant leader in adversity the answer yes you should be I just don't think it's
• 34:03
  this meat hey can I get you a hot towel we're not talking about a flight attendant servant we're
• 34:09
  talking about a true servant meets the needs of the master and so if I'm going to serve my team if
• 34:18
  I'm the leader I'm going to serve my team and that coach in that situation has to ask himself and
• 34:22
  his coaches what is our team need right now we are surrounded by a person so one of the team needs
• 34:30
  in the scenario we're talking about is there's probably some guys on the team that needs some confident
• 34:35
  I got to figure out how to serve confidence up to them I got to inject them with some confidence some
• 34:41
  belief that's what this player or maybe our defensive unit they need some belief I got to serve
• 34:49
  them some believe I got to get them some belief all right let's go to the commander exam I think
• 34:56
  of saving private rides one of my all-time favorite leadership movies you know Tom Hanks plays the
• 35:00
  erstwhile humble leader you know but there are multiple times and out throughout that movie if
• 35:07
  we're sake of time I'm not going to describe a scene that we probably all can remember but there
• 35:11
  are multiple times in that movie where he is in fact a servant and what he is realizes what does
• 35:17
  my team need right now what does this unit need they need a story there's a classic moment where
• 35:25
  they're they're hunkered down and he can tell the guys are nervous and they're missing home
• 35:30
  and he tells a story and he changes the vibe in that room and it's a beautiful illustration by
• 35:37
  the director there of in that moment his team needed some hope so I'm gonna challenge that view and
• 35:46
  say the servant leader it's not about style servant has nothing to do with your temperament or
• 35:56
  that you're meat or that you're lowly no no a servant leader is maniacally focused on what does
• 36:04
  my team need what does my unit need what does this corporation what does this company need this
• 36:13
  division what do they need right now and when you can think of it that way and in the lowliest
• 36:20
  terms of a servant and that's why that term is so powerful and it's get used to describe the
• 36:25
  servant leader because a servant was at the lowest level of humility and their entire existence was
• 36:30
  to provide for the needs of someone else when you flip that from the lowly servant to the leader
• 36:37
  takes on that mindset of my job is to make sure my team has what it needs to win so I've got 20
• 36:44
  people in my team what does Scott need to do his job really well maybe Scott's got some stuff
• 36:50
  going on his personal life that is tough stuff and he's not a robot he's a human that's dragging
• 36:57
  some crap from his personal life into the office because he's a human and so what does Scott need
• 37:03
  right now Scott doesn't need more resources at work you know Scott needs Scott needs a long weekend
• 37:11
  I think that's what servant leadership is this maniacal focus on what is the team need and how can
• 37:17
  I serve it to them that's that's so I do think it's ideal in fact I think servant leadership
• 37:24
  in the hardest of times is the best way to go because it's not you in a posture of I've got to
• 37:29
  figure out all the answers no it had a time of adversity I want to know what the team says they
• 37:35
  need is I think it's going to inform what we need to do as an organization and what we need to do
• 37:41
  you know what I think I love that it's a very very well described scenario and I think the
• 37:49
  year 100% correct I think that I think that the concern that I have with leaders and and and
• 38:01
  crises situations is that the human nature is to default to a command and control style when
• 38:11
  shit hits the fan so for because you you listen listen you speak to entrepreneurs founders CEOs
• 38:19
  executives managers directors all the time so for people that are listening to this they may not
• 38:25
  even be aware of how they are going to default or the leadership style they are going to default to
• 38:30
  except when something bad actually happens and by that time I would assume sometimes it's a
• 38:38
  little bit too late to change your style or to train or to prep yourself so you dealt with a
• 38:44
  whole bunch of leaders going through COVID somebody who's listening now is a leader who manages
• 38:50
  people as director port to as employees what's the training or the work they have to do so that
• 38:55
  when shit does hit the fan they can do exactly what you said got a couple things number one get
• 39:00
  in a rhythm of regular conversations with your team and it's in it's driven by two questions
• 39:09
  that can have derivatives but two main questions you need to ask of your team every week individually
• 39:16
  and if you want collectively the questions are number one how are you doing it's got how are you
• 39:21
  doing you burned out it tired know your mom with do something you know what I got to know
• 39:27
  enough about you and to be able to ask about that and they they're getting to see I genuinely
• 39:33
  is the leader care about you as a person how are you doing the more you ask that question
• 39:39
  and the more they open up to you and they see that you care guess what happens their trust level
• 39:44
  in you goes a big time is now they go hen is forming he's not I'm not a unit of production
• 39:53
  he actually cares about me as a person and that will allow them to answer the second question much
• 39:58
  more honest is this is the breakthrough in the corporate workplace at any leader at any position
• 40:03
  any any any industry the second question is how can I help you win in your job now most people
• 40:11
  want to answer that question honestly the first second third fourth maybe fifth time keep asking
• 40:16
  they may give you some surface stuff the more you keep asking as a result of asking the first
• 40:21
  question and by the way acting on it so Scott says you know my daughters you got to scare right
• 40:28
  now we've got some medical testing going on would it be best if you took two or three days
• 40:35
  because we can cover for you we'll figure out a way you tell me what we need to do with that
• 40:39
  two three days so we don't drop the balls that you're carrying but I want to give you two three
• 40:43
  days just take some time with your wife and your daughter and yet man let me tell you something
• 40:47
  that's huge and so understanding what's going on what you're dealing with and acting on it
• 40:54
  then builds trust and then they begin to say well here's the reality uh you moved me into this
• 40:58
  roll six months ago and I don't think we had adequate training not gripping I think I've noticed
• 41:03
  there's two or three things that I need this skill set can you give it to me or can you give me
• 41:08
  some training and I think it's gonna that's gonna take care of this gap I'm experiencing man that's
• 41:13
  that is light blood for a leader to be able to know that information and act on that all right
• 41:18
  so those are the two primary questions that I would be asking so that you begin to train yourself
• 41:25
  to the point of your question so that when it gets tight or it gets adverse and it's a storm
• 41:33
  everyone you'll save with you the leader and so they'll speak up and go hey I know your plan is
• 41:44
  to batten down that hatch this hatch and this hatch but I actually think we should put some sandbags
• 41:48
  over there and they don't think that you're gonna bite their head off because they know you care
• 41:52
  about them enough to ask about them and and you've built some rapport and they know that you care
• 41:58
  about their opinion too and and that servant leadership comes and goes what do you guys think we
• 42:03
  should do I think we should batten down these three windows over here what do you guys think
• 42:07
  and because you've done those other two things I've talked about in the moment there's high
• 42:11
  levels of trust and the higher the trust is in calm times the higher the trust will be in the
• 42:20
  topsy turvy times the adverse moments and man trust is huge and thinking clearly and acting
• 42:29
  clearly when when you're backs against the wall and that's huge and so then we're able to act I
• 42:36
  think in a much more calm and trusted way and in adversity there everybody's for you and they're
• 42:42
  telling you what they really think they go hey listen I think that's okay but I don't I think
• 42:45
  we've got to put some sandbags over here first and I think we do that it gives us time to do this
• 42:50
  and you go I actually think that's great and and and so you're not acting alone back to something
• 42:57
  that you asked me earlier I want to say is the default for leaders is to solve not to serve
• 43:03
  and I think if you serve they'll help you solve that you know what else happens when when
• 43:12
  when you adopt this mindset and you build this trust and you and you serve to solve you also
• 43:20
  solve this problem of of meaningless work and from from the perspective of the employee
• 43:27
  because now the employee feels like they can map out their career with you and plan their next
• 43:33
  steps with you and figure out where they want to end up so not only is the employee going to feel
• 43:38
  like this particular season of their life has more meaning and purpose and potential future
• 43:43
  alignment also as a leader you're not going to be dealing with quiet quitters or people that are
• 43:50
  you know taking interviews on lunch breaks because now you have this rapport so the goal is to
• 43:56
  solve this crisis from both sides so you have to find your purpose but also the leaders have to
• 44:01
  do their job understanding that as this person is going through this career journey they're
• 44:08
  going to be part of your organization and to get the most out of them while they're part of your
• 44:12
  organization you have to be acting this way and then all of a sudden you create just a better
• 44:18
  version of work yeah and to your point perfect point when I as a leader serve my team well we
• 44:27
  as a team are better equipped to serve the customer and we can't forget all this servant talk
• 44:33
  and serving all can go wait a second all of this leads to us actually serving the most important
• 44:38
  audience which is the customer if we're not serving the customer we have no business you have no
• 44:42
  jobs and so it is a trickle down effect the more you serve your team the better you serve your
• 44:50
  team the better the collective unit can serve the customer now that's a win talk to me I know we
• 44:57
  sort of dance around this but I think that it's something that you speak about often and I think
• 45:02
  it's an interesting concept the psychological impact of meaningless work and it being
• 45:08
  psychologically torturous and outside of just impacting the organization and impacting the
• 45:14
  customers and impacting your personal career path because there's so much more to it than that
• 45:19
  oh there's so I mean it's it's about shelf worth like your capacity to grow is completely based
• 45:32
  on your belief in your potential so I have to have belief in my potential for me to then realize
• 45:41
  my capacity to actually grow in other words once I realize I've got potential then I begin to
• 45:49
  look into that and go oh so if my potential is here and I'm here now I see the gap and I can see
• 45:55
  where I can grow and that has tremendous meaning and you know what I mean another word self-work
• 46:03
  so to the heart of your question a person who doesn't believe that their job matters
• 46:10
  quickly starts to believe that they don't know I mean it was that is a torturous thing that
• 46:16
  throughout history has been done in prison camps where I mean you talk about Victor Frankl who
• 46:21
  wrote since who writes in search of meaning the Bible along purpose for work in my opinion and he
• 46:26
  writes it wow largely writes it while in a Nazi prison camp and he is his his goal is to he gets
• 46:35
  up every day and he's trying to find purpose by rewriting everything that he believes and learning
• 46:41
  from what he's doing as he's moving in one heavy rock from one side of the prison camp to the other
• 46:45
  and then once that pile is transferred they come back and you want to talk about meaningless work
• 46:49
  and that was mental torture it was psychological torture so that's the that's the heart of it if I
• 46:57
  don't think that my work matters to me I will eventually get to the point where I think well it doesn't
• 47:03
  matter to me I don't think it matters much at all that means I don't matter and now you're in a
• 47:07
  really scary spiral of depression that can lead to I'm meditating in so many ways and you asked
• 47:15
  me this question earlier on the interview one of the main differences in the world of work
• 47:20
  over the last five 10 15 years is such a a trap of meaninglessness
• 47:29
  and and that's why we see depression and and and all kinds of things stress in the workplace
• 47:35
  people going home their physical life suck as they're overeating or their sugar you know they're
• 47:40
  they're meditating through sugar or alcohol or you name it man I mean all of the stuff we humans do
• 47:48
  that are detrimental to our physical, emotional and mental selves is a form of medication
• 47:54
  and I'm not trying to overstate this but I believe if I could wave a lawn and give every person in
• 48:01
  the world meaningful work you would see a massive drop in those other areas of vices and detrimental
• 48:09
  effects. Well I think that one thing that I saw during COVID which is so telling what you just
• 48:15
  mentioned is is people would rather take a government paycheck and stay at home and do then do
• 48:21
  the jobs that they were doing this happened a lot I mean I'm Canadian I think it happened down
• 48:25
  year with a whole bunch of stimulus checks or you know similar similar style programs that's
• 48:31
  horrible that's absolutely horrible right because that's why do you think that is I know lions are
• 48:37
  curious what do you think why would the human go I'm going to take the government check as opposed
• 48:42
  to go out and chart my own pen I feel like so I thought about this because it's so out of alignment
• 48:51
  with what I believe in who I am like I look at work even when I was starting in my career like I
• 48:56
  would push my university classes to evenings and weekends so I could work during the day because I
• 49:02
  saw work as an opportunity for advancement and I saw work as an opportunity to achieve the life
• 49:07
  that I wanted to achieve all right there's the answer more exactly so the more hours you had a
• 49:12
  destination yes see you had a destination so let me take this to a simple little metaphor okay
• 49:19
  if you're driving in a car and you told me right before we start recording that there's
• 49:23
  a massive thunderstorm in the Miami area but so imagine you're out on a Miami freeway and I'm talking
• 49:28
  a day illusion of water you can't see past the hood of your car what are you doing you drive it
• 49:34
  slow you're not you're not you're putting on your hazards and pulling over you nailed it you got
• 49:39
  the whole answer I'd begin to slow down and eventually I pull over and I'm stuck waiting for
• 49:47
  the storm to pass when you don't have a personal or professional destination there a direction in
• 49:56
  mind psychologically emotionally mentally you do the same thing we're doing the car and so all
• 50:04
  of a sudden you go I'll take the check because I'm not moving forward I'm stuck I don't know where
• 50:11
  of those to go so got to exist and so it is existence becomes the primary function
• 50:20
  not persistence and and progress like I just got to exist so I'll take the check that's what's
• 50:26
  cool and on there's a lack of direction so there's stuff just like we would be in fog or rate
• 50:34
  having my voice all of a sudden all right sorry you got you can get some water if you want
• 50:41
  no I'm good brother I don't know what happened me I'm too excited right now I just want to take a
• 50:45
  second to thank the sponsor of today's episode HubSpot now HubSpot has an incredible podcast network
• 50:51
  success stories part of it and if you like success story you're gonna love other podcasts and
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  their network one of my favorites is i digress is hosted by Troy Sandage what Troy does exceptionally well
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• 51:18
  part of the HubSpot podcast network wherever you get your podcasts no that's good it's I think
• 51:24
  that's such an important point so the second thing that I think is really top of mind for people
• 51:28
  and I'm just curious to get your opinion on this is is new technologies and in my opinion these
• 51:35
  new technologies are gonna replace mediocre work I don't think we're gonna see mediocre work
• 51:39
  anymore I mean I've heard um I can't remember who said this but the the comment was in the future
• 51:49
  you will only be able to work on the things that you want to work on and not have to do work that
• 51:55
  you don't want to work because that'll all be outsourced of technology so given the fact that I
• 51:59
  don't think we'll see any more mediocre work going forward because that can already be replaced
• 52:03
  to some degree and it will be even further replaced and the fact that you can only work on things
• 52:07
  that you want to work on where do you see technology fitting into purpose work upskilling development
• 52:16
  people are scared of it people are embracing it just from all the people you speak to what's the
• 52:21
  general consensus I think that AI is not going to replace you but a person who's better at using AI
• 52:30
  will replace you I think that's the bigger concern uh I do I think that they're going to be a
• 52:35
  sector of jobs that will be affected yes I think a lot of your administrative tasks obviously
• 52:41
  we've already seen automation take a big step forward there AI is going to continue to do that
• 52:47
  but but by and large I think what's going to happen is to your point I love the way you set it
• 52:51
  I just think everybody's going to become a gig a worker or let's call a freelancer probably the
• 52:57
  better term I think everybody's going to be a freelancer and I think the days of the resume
• 53:03
  uh are on their way out and now it's going to be kind of a profile of what digital profile
• 53:11
  you know and you show your work it's about your brand it's about how you do the work in other words
• 53:17
  an example of this is we're already seeing lawyers at law firms that are using AI so effectively
• 53:22
  to where the AI is replacing many many hours of what they would have spent doing the clerical and
• 53:30
  the paperwork and everything and you know what they're doing they're pivoting and they're they're
• 53:34
  building off of AI and say AI can replace me on all this paperwork and minutiae and all that
• 53:39
  I'm going to go focus on the relationship with the customer so I really believe that if you embrace
• 53:46
  AI um I think it's going to actually put a premium on the personal touch and I think as AI
• 53:55
  becomes more and more of our everyday life we will appreciate what it does for us from an
• 54:01
  efficiency and convenience standpoint but as humans we will crave the human touch and I don't
• 54:06
  mean in this case the physical touch but but maybe that too but I mean you're going to crave
• 54:11
  talking to a human and and so I think those are two big takeaways uh you leverage AI leverage
• 54:19
  technology uh to specialize you know one example I saw that uh I read in a LinkedIn article about
• 54:26
  this very topic is you're going to have a person who is scavenging for rare mushrooms
• 54:33
  and they build a website in 10 minutes and they start selling these mushrooms all around the
• 54:38
  rule they're making 250 grand that's a specialization you're really good at
• 54:44
  foraging for mushrooms and reselling them to health nuts who love mushrooms like I just think
• 54:50
  the diversification and specialization is what is going to be the new way of work then the last
• 54:57
  the last thing that I I thought would you'd have a comment on because you spoken about this again
• 55:02
  in your book you speak a lot about dreams versus marriages so genuine career aspirations versus
• 55:10
  unrealistic goals um that could be disheartening to some people because now they've bought into this
• 55:17
  whole concept of I'm going to find my purpose I'm going to go out there I'm going to line my
• 55:21
  skills what I'm passionate about and what the market needs but maybe I'm shooting too high
• 55:27
  or maybe I'm looking at something that you know I don't want it to sidetrack the thing that I have
• 55:32
  over here the nine to five that's paying the bills and I don't really love it but I don't
• 55:36
  hated enough to quit and I have a family and I have kids and what if I what if I you know shoot
• 55:43
  for the moon and completely miss and and that quote of ending up in the stars doesn't apply right
• 55:48
  so what do you what do you what's the framework what's the mental model to make sure that your
• 55:55
  aspirations are sound well do I have a talent to pull this off now not the Super Bowl version
• 56:03
  right but do I have the talent actually and do I enjoy everything that goes into it the working
• 56:11
  now the eating right the getting bruised and hit and cut you know getting concussed every once
• 56:17
  a little while do I care deeply about winning am I driven naturally motivated by achievement and
• 56:26
  winning I have a competitive juice that must be met I got to get that out that's that's that's
• 56:32
  how we figure that out now so we know what wired for this is back to my methodology I mean in my
• 56:38
  wired for like the kid that goes to try out for American Idol might love the idea of being famous
• 56:43
  and love the idea of singing in their shower but if they suck and Simon Cal tells them they suck
• 56:51
  they're not going to be a pop star so that's why I say we've got to retreat to clarity when we
• 56:58
  have these big big dreams and feelings is it a mirage or is it a dream we're going to go all
• 57:04
  the way back to do I have the raw talent do I have a legitimate unbridled passion I'm willing to
• 57:10
  suffer the the root word for passion is patie in the Latin and it means to suffer are you willing
• 57:15
  to suffer wait wait wait wait wait and and and then you know do you care about the result of this
• 57:19
  of entertaining people or or talking about sports wherever when I when I started out pursuing sports
• 57:26
  broadcasting before I got on the path that I'm on now and this is the answer to the question
• 57:31
  in a very real story I I showed up at high school football game two hours before the game I was
• 57:38
  going to play by playing on the internet two people were listening the guy next to me who was
• 57:43
  doing the color and my wife because she's a good woman and one of me wanted to affirm me when I got
• 57:48
  home I showed up two hours before the games I was interviewing coaches and they were like who is
• 57:54
  this guy how did he get down on the field and you know I was like I'm with complete game broadcast
• 57:58
  and they didn't even know we were doing it you know I'm like asking them questions like I'm Jim
• 58:03
  before the Super Bowl why because there was purpose in the lowest rung of the ladder and that's
• 58:10
  what that was there was purpose because I knew if I was going to do it big time I had to learn how
• 58:16
  to do it small time and so I showed up early I treated it like it was a Super Bowl I listened to
• 58:21
  myself I like that was awful don't do that again I mean I was doing the small stuff in order to
• 58:28
  determine whether or not I was willing to stay long enough to actually do the big stuff that's
• 58:34
  important so that's how you determine that is it a mirage or if it's a dream because if it's a dream
• 58:40
  you show up two hours before high school football game and ask weights him any questions
• 58:46
  to see if you like this enough to eventually love it see we've got to understand that
• 58:56
  the mirage is a feeling I think I'd like to do that but then when I got a show up and do the hard work
• 59:02
  and prepare and start out at the bottom and if I don't like it at the bottom I'm not going to love it
• 59:12
  it's the bottom line you got to put in the reps so so that's how you know if it's a dream or not
• 59:17
  if you are willing to suffer rejection suffer patience waiting as to suffering my gosh waiting
• 59:26
  as suffer you know if you're willing to do that it's a dream and that tells you I am willing
• 59:32
  to show up on the lowest rung of the ladder and hang out for a while and get my teeth kicked in
• 59:36
  and and all that crap because gosh I can paste it and here I am today I you know the first day
• 59:47
  that I did my series XM shows a national show series XM and two months later I was in New York
• 59:52
  and they let me do my show from their New York studios man this is glitz it's glamorous telling
• 59:57
  the hall from Howard Stern I was doing my show rep and I look up at Al Roker was right across the
• 1:00:02
  hall from me do it his show and I got a motion because it was in that moment that I that I realized
• 1:00:12
  that it was worth showing up doing the high school football and no one was listening to nobody
• 1:00:15
  care and I was away from my wife and three kids I wanted it I wanted it that it was a dream that
• 1:00:22
  wasn't a morade I love that I want to I want to bring out just one last a couple last stories
• 1:00:32
  because I mean you work with so many incredible people and you answer all these questions live
• 1:00:38
  and you coach and I love stories too so tell me tell me a few one or two whatever you can pick
• 1:00:47
  some of the hardest conversations and live coachings that you've had to do what are some of the
• 1:00:54
  most difficult things you've had to deal with over I mean the years you've been doing this now
• 1:00:59
  I think one of the most difficult moments I had was early on and when we were just on
• 1:01:03
  serious we weren't on radio yet we were serious XM and we were podcasting it and we were probably
• 1:01:08
  five months in and I had not taken a call yet that was gut-wrenching and it was the first gut-wrenching
• 1:01:14
  call ever took and it was I say it was difficult because it was all I could do not to sob
• 1:01:20
  into the like that was difficult the story was a guy called me and he presented himself at the
• 1:01:26
  stop of the call he said can I I've got two pass I'm in technology now and I've been in for about
• 1:01:33
  five years and I've seen some rapid growth and I've got an opportunity right now to take a job
• 1:01:37
  which in a couple short years would put me in a in a CTO position major deal big money stock all
• 1:01:45
  the all the accoutrements of professional life he said but I'm wrestling with this nagging feeling I
• 1:01:56
  then I'm supposed to be a child therapist and that's how he presented and so cutting throughout all
• 1:02:03
  got some more background at one point I just looked at him and he was really torn and I had a sense
• 1:02:07
  that he really wanted my permission to to to walk away from the big time technology future
• 1:02:14
  and go be a child therapist but he was wrestling with it was going to be a lot more time a lot more
• 1:02:19
  money you know because you had to get reeducated for that you got to get a degree for that you got
• 1:02:23
  to get some advanced degrees and it was a path and he was really wrestling with it and I felt that
• 1:02:27
  his heart was saying child therapy and his head was of course telling him to what do you what do
• 1:02:32
  you not you gonna walk away from it so at at at this point in the call I just put it to him I said
• 1:02:40
  I believe there's something in your story that is compelling you and it keeps coming up there's
• 1:02:50
  a reason why the child therapist keeps coming up and I'd never done this before I'm new
• 1:02:55
  up six months in and I just felt it and I said what's what what is that and he broke it started
• 1:03:03
  sobbing well I was like what have I done you know and he was starting to get to me you know when
• 1:03:10
  someone is that deeply wounded and you I knew something was there and he he garbled it out he went
• 1:03:18
  I was abused as a child and I don't ever want that to happen to somebody else but if it does
• 1:03:25
  I want to be for those kids what my therapist was for me and dude he's like I'm still at this
• 1:03:31
  mold a little bit choking on that but he was sobbing while saying that that took about 30 seconds
• 1:03:36
  to say what I said seven that was different to sit in that mold with that guy
• 1:03:44
  and decipher I don't think he needs me to say a whole lot
• 1:03:52
  I he needs to hear that and he heard himself say it and so I let the moment sit for a minute it
• 1:03:58
  was very somber because of course you know it was live and you just kind of let it breathe and I
• 1:04:05
  just said there's your answer man so find a way you smart about it but you are supposed to
• 1:04:16
  stand in the gap and help other people become who you are now and it was just man it was all
• 1:04:22
  like a do not to just cry that was that was probably the most difficult call I've ever had to
• 1:04:27
  deal with because of the sensitivity of it and there's a time to stop coaching and I did and thankfully
• 1:04:34
  I was in the mold was able to just go man there's the answer you know I would argue that
• 1:04:41
  you actually didn't stop coaching you actually coach the way that people should coach
• 1:04:46
  I think that you actually guided somebody through a really difficult moment which I think is actually
• 1:04:51
  the most beautiful version of of a coach I think that just coaches had a different
• 1:04:58
  connotation associated with it which is a whole other issue that I have with you know air quotes
• 1:05:05
  coaches that wouldn't have dealt with that situation in the same way yeah I just have learned
• 1:05:12
  that there's always a story from their story um when somebody presents an A or a B and they present
• 1:05:22
  as I'm leaning more towards B or I'm leaning more towards A I have learned to go ask them
• 1:05:30
  what from your past do you think is influencing this feeling and I I'm a firm believer
• 1:05:37
  that if you do the work that I talked about that you've got the talent
• 1:05:41
  and then your heart is overwhelmingly saying and that's what passion and mission the what I love
• 1:05:48
  to do and the results I care deep about are all heart so I always tell people follow your heart
• 1:05:56
  when you're heading harder in a wrestling match all I'm asking is do you have the the raw talent
• 1:06:00
  that with training and experience you can pull it off if that's seen if the answer is yes then
• 1:06:04
  you better follow your heart are you gonna get to the end of your journey and you're gonna regret
• 1:06:09
  and I want people to get to the end of their journey and reminisce you know and that's what that
• 1:06:13
  guy was facing in that moment and it was so deeply rooted in a willing that he had healed from
• 1:06:20
  and so he would have never been happy because there was a deep abiding uh hole on his heart
• 1:06:33
  and that's what we all long to do remember we started the talking thing people want to make their mark
• 1:06:37
  everybody's got a different mark they want to make and not all of them are deeply rooted in
• 1:06:41
  really tough pain but I would say that on some level there's a there's pain behind every
• 1:06:47
  purposeful direction there's some level of pain could be the pain of frustration could be the
• 1:06:53
  pain of rejection whatever you know I think that this is why you've done so well at the work that
• 1:07:00
  you've chosen to take on because you lead with empathy which is obviously that was sort of shown in
• 1:07:05
  that moment but it's probably what's allowed you to to go a level deeper than a lot of people
• 1:07:11
  again who call themselves coaches or or try and support and and and and guide people through
• 1:07:18
  career moments in their life personal moments in their life if you were going to look at
• 1:07:22
  what's made you so good at what you do that was showcased in that moment has and has been showcased
• 1:07:28
  in hundreds of moments ever since when you guide people and help people and support people and
• 1:07:33
  you just mentioned you go a level deeper and you look at what are the underlying things that are
• 1:07:37
  prompting this internal frustration I want to pull out something from you that you sort of
• 1:07:46
  understood to be your superpower that can help doesn't have to be other coaches just help people
• 1:07:52
  go through their life be better at guiding other people because I think that the very noble talent
• 1:07:59
  I think it's as simple as asking questions from multiple different angles dig until you hit the
• 1:08:06
  metal I really that's it I am very curious by nature we all have a level of curiousness I'm
• 1:08:17
  I'm really really curious I was just in a meeting before this podcast where I'm meeting with my
• 1:08:22
  producer on some stuff and we're trying to do stuff on my show and he was pushing back on an idea
• 1:08:27
  that I just threw out there and I could tell that he was getting a little it wasn't ugly at all
• 1:08:31
  but it but he was getting a little bit like and I said hey I I still I'm not saying that my idea is
• 1:08:38
  right I just need to get a few more angles on this and he laughed because he that's how I'm liar
• 1:08:46
  so I do it in a meeting as well when someone says to me no on an idea and I don't feel like we've
• 1:08:54
  looked at it from every angle then I keep asking questions well what about this well why not
• 1:09:02
  this that's how I'm liar I don't get to certainty as fast as other people but when I get to
• 1:09:09
  certainty I'm there and I would say that is a superpower I do have to give the discernment but it
• 1:09:16
  is the question asking to go multiple levels or maybe come from a different angle to verify that
• 1:09:23
  what I'm sensing and discerning is real that's what helps and I think that will help us all but that's
• 1:09:28
  what I have to coach people live on the air in eight minutes I had to learn how to do it quickly
• 1:09:32
  I mean me coaching you in an hour it's not even fair yeah especially when I can see
• 1:09:38
  yeah because I can read things most of my coaching has been done on the on the phone so you have to
• 1:09:44
  listen for things and so I just have learned how to ask questions and ask it a multiple different ways
• 1:09:52
  to verify what I'm discerning and then I reveal to them what I'm seeing and they then tell me if
• 1:09:59
  I'm right or wrong but but at that point they I say well here's what I'm seeing or hearing
• 1:10:07
  and they will validate or go no no no you're wrong okay uh but most of the time I'm right because
• 1:10:13
  I don't reveal what I'm seeing or hearing until I have dug until I've got to the bottom of the
• 1:10:18
  hole and we're hit and pater I love that I love that what do we not go into that you you think
• 1:10:26
  would be valuable for the odds you wanted to so many different things what do we not go into
• 1:10:31
  you know there's one topic that has blown up on my instagram and it was micro manager at 10.2
• 1:10:36
  million views of of of a 30 second video of me saying micro managing is about fear if you've
• 1:10:43
  got a micro manager you need to understand something uh they're fearful they are terrified they're
• 1:10:49
  holding so that might be a fun topic I don't know if you've got a leadership audience because it's
• 1:10:53
  it's instructive for somebody who's dealing with it like how do you manage that micro manager is
• 1:10:57
  an angle we could go I know I think no no by the way it's it's so I thought I thought we I thought
• 1:11:03
  we put that to bed with the the leadership conversation and but but you know maybe you maybe
• 1:11:09
  people I think people still feel like listen there's bad leaders everywhere I don't think I don't
• 1:11:14
  think we have a shortage of bad leaders so yeah we can talk in again I'm spit ball you go you go
• 1:11:21
  where you want to go no no I don't mind I mean we've got through so many different things we've
• 1:11:26
  gone through so many different things so that's a hot topic so why is micro management still a hot
• 1:11:31
  topic I feel like we've gotten over micro management like I feel like it's the thing of the past
• 1:11:37
  like I feel like it's not supposed to be applicable anymore yeah but it's a little massive front
• 1:11:43
  and and and the reason is is you know we were talking earlier about people desire autonomous
• 1:11:48
  so autonomy you can be free and still work for somebody else but the sense of freedom is is that
• 1:11:54
  hey Scott I heard you to do this okay and I'm gonna give you the tools you need to do it I'm
• 1:11:59
  gonna train you how to do it I'm gonna tell you how I want you to do it when I want you to do it
• 1:12:05
  but I'm gonna let you do it and then after you do it a few times we'll do some review and we'll
• 1:12:11
  say what do we need to do that but that's not how it works what we see is as a fearful leader
• 1:12:16
  micro management still is such a big choking attribute I call it a deadly trade of leadership
• 1:12:21
  because it is the response of a fearful leader they're afraid because they don't have all the
• 1:12:27
  resources they have from up above or they feel like someone's breathing down their net
• 1:12:33
  and they are trying to control a situation that they don't feel they have control over and the
• 1:12:38
  only way they know how to control it is to what we call micro management which is you know
• 1:12:43
  be over over involved overbearing and they're not doing it because they're a bad person
• 1:12:49
  they're doing it because they're a bad leader and that may be the only model they've ever seen
• 1:12:53
  number one number two it could be because they are experiencing massive fear and who among us
• 1:12:59
  is rational when we're fearful what are we doing we're fearful we try to like take control of
• 1:13:04
  everything and remove every risk and so the reason that will always exist is because of the human
• 1:13:13
  nature of people when they are fearful and there's a lot of things to be afraid of in today's workforce
• 1:13:20
  and so sometimes you have to lead up so to the leader that may feel like man I am a little too
• 1:13:26
  controlling I would tell you to do some work on yourself go see it there get to the heart of
• 1:13:32
  what are you afraid of now for those and then by the way once you get that leaders and you see
• 1:13:37
  that oh my gosh this is a blind spot I I'm afraid of this so I'm afraid of that what do I have to do
• 1:13:43
  to remove that fear it makes you a better leader and that will also make you a less controlling leader
• 1:13:48
  now to the person who is underneath a micromanager this is tricky and this could be a large
• 1:13:54
  portion of your audience what do I do all right number one you need to seek to understand what they're
• 1:14:01
  afraid of do your best to try to figure it out and your one-on-ones with them go hey what are
• 1:14:06
  some of your biggest concerns with our team you know there's some there's some subtle ways to do
• 1:14:11
  this that don't make them defensive at all it's a managed job which is really the hardest thing to do
• 1:14:16
  it's a very hardest thing to do but absolutely essential sometimes because you just leave every
• 1:14:20
  company where there's a micromanager sometimes you're going to have to be an adult and I think the
• 1:14:23
  way you do it is is seek to understand with some very smart questions and some observations what
• 1:14:29
  are they most afraid of I know we know what they're afraid of how can you address that with you
• 1:14:36
  you may not be able to fix them but you might be able to put a boundary up with you
• 1:14:42
  so you go oh they're really afraid of not being communicate so what am I going to do I would
• 1:14:50
  overcommunicate I've pinpointed that they're afraid that they don't know everything that's
• 1:14:56
  going on so you know what I'm going to do as it relates to me and my role in my relationship
• 1:15:00
  with them they're going to know everything I'm going to ask for a weekly meeting I'm going to
• 1:15:04
  send them an email on Friday telling them everything manage that fear and here's what will happen
• 1:15:10
  they will look at you anymore and they will project their fear onto you they'll go I don't have to
• 1:15:15
  worry about Scott Scott's the model yes what happens they turn their attention away from you
• 1:15:23
  and so at least makes your situation better maybe then that spreads maybe your coakers go what did
• 1:15:29
  you do Scott how does how how are you the favorite you go I get news for you I'm not the favorite
• 1:15:35
  guess what I did I figured it out they got a fear here so I mean it is the fear things are great
• 1:15:42
  you know like we got to get involved we got to roll our sleeves up and go you have some imperfect
• 1:15:46
  people that are leading so I that's just that issue's been a hot button when I just mentioned
• 1:15:52
  it briefly on social media and you know honestly you put something out and 10 million people
• 1:15:56
  or watching it and you 40,000 shares in the comments you know like uh oh I stepped on a nerve
• 1:16:03
  so while the term is not new it is very much and will always be an issue in the workplace in a
• 1:16:10
  leadership content I think the issue I think I think an issue is sometimes when we pontificate from
• 1:16:16
  an ivory tower that work as this way or that way it doesn't really reflect the realities
• 1:16:21
  of the day to day of somebody who does have a shitty manager and that's why it's such a big a big
• 1:16:27
  problem um I have one more I was just looking at your Instagram because now I'm like oh this is
• 1:16:34
  this is this is goal but there's one more thing that prompted a thought so the second largest I
• 1:16:39
  guess or one of the largest uh post that you made was about promotions and pay raises and I thought
• 1:16:46
  back I'll tell you a very brief story so there was a point in my career where um is it not directly
• 1:16:55
  tied to this but it's also something that probably happens to people so I wanted to move up to like
• 1:17:00
  the next level so I was in sales and I was selling to small business and I wanted to move to mid-market
• 1:17:04
  and like the the manager was on board and was killing the numbers and my director was on board
• 1:17:10
  and if I had moved internally to the organization uh I would have gotten like an x percent paid bump
• 1:17:16
  however if I had been recruited from outside the organization I would have been making like 10 or
• 1:17:20
  15 thousand dollars more as opposed to an internal uh an internal uh promotion for the exact same
• 1:17:27
  job so what ended up happening is my director said give me your resignation and I'll hire you
• 1:17:33
  externally it was like pure workplace BS politics like so stupid so stupid anyway it happened got
• 1:17:39
  the pay bump it was it was great you know career progress from there but there's so much BS
• 1:17:44
  incorporate America that people deal with that I don't think the average person knows what to do
• 1:17:50
  about like that was a mentor the director was a mentor to me he guided me through this process but
• 1:17:55
  so many people get screwed basically and all the time the the other thing that I see people get
• 1:18:01
  screwed with is if you try and move up in a company you'll get more money if you go somewhere
• 1:18:06
  else sometimes as opposed to staying in the company and also I think the post that went viral was
• 1:18:11
  promotion without pay so all of these BS politics companies so big half of the company doesn't
• 1:18:19
  even know that this is happening in one of the departments all these issues of people are real
• 1:18:24
  issues that deal with that people deal with in their careers that impact them financially
• 1:18:28
  pick any of the three random examples I just mentioned or the one that really went viral on your
• 1:18:33
  Instagram what's your recommendation for people that are stuck in these shitty circumstances
• 1:18:38
  I can tell you this if you are being manipulated then that's not going to change and what you've
• 1:18:44
  described is manipulation companies are desperate to fill a position they it pay you so they
• 1:18:51
  kill up with this promotion we're going to promote you but there's no pay and so it's this it's a
• 1:18:56
  manipulative play it is a form of dishonesty simple so if this is happening to you it will
• 1:19:08
  continue to so I'm not going to tolerate I would I would get your act together before you can
• 1:19:18
  front it meaning have a plan is if you don't have a plan it doesn't it doesn't help you to
• 1:19:23
  confront it then you're kicked out on the street so you got to be matured and so I'd build a
• 1:19:27
  bridge and if you feel you got a bridge you feel like financially you're okay and you can do this
• 1:19:31
  you feel like okay I'm going to line up a couple of things I would confront it once and call it out
• 1:19:38
  because I get a lot of time leaders get away with it because we as employees aren't willing to
• 1:19:43
  have a difficult conversation because we're scared but if you're going to remove that fear and go I'm
• 1:19:50
  not scared and I'm matured I breathe a little bit I think a lot of things can change if we just
• 1:19:59
  have a difficult conversation with our leader but they get away with it because we don't challenge
• 1:20:03
  them because we're scared they were going to lose our job and so then when you know I'm scared to
• 1:20:08
  do that so I put up with it too long and eventually I get to deploy Ryan desperate and then I just
• 1:20:12
  leave and I I don't necessarily do what's best for me there changing jobs sometimes is not the
• 1:20:18
  best way to move forward and and so it's worthwhile to at least have the difficult conversation
• 1:20:23
  without any kind of fear and see if they go you know what you just called me out on this and I feel
• 1:20:27
  like a real jerk so I'm not going to do that but left to their own device and you'll say anything
• 1:20:32
  about it they get away with it you know and and so that's a slippery slope so that's how I would
• 1:20:41
  handle it and then if we have the difficult conversation we call them out on a respectfully and humbly
• 1:20:45
  and go this is how I feel about this isn't a feel right and if they if they react to it and they
• 1:20:50
  do the right thing right big win there that leaves everybody if they don't react there's your son
• 1:20:59
  no I can now I can go and I will not second guess that decision like I just that's my prescription
• 1:21:05
  that's the advice I give on the air if somebody called me and asked me that question don't just give
• 1:21:10
  up and throw your hands in the air many times leaders are making those decisions because they feel
• 1:21:14
  that's all they have or they think it's the best decision and if you just kind of show a little bit of
• 1:21:22
  okay you'll do it that's not enough to make them second guess it challenge it and many times
• 1:21:28
  you're going to find that they needed to be challenged you know what that is kind of a jerk move
• 1:21:34
  I'm not going to do that and many times you're going to find that their hands are tied and they're
• 1:21:37
  being told to do that or they don't feel like they have any options at which point you go I don't
• 1:21:40
  want to be in an organization like this you know so that's the harsh reality I think that I
• 1:21:47
  think that you know everything you want is on the other side of a hard conversation and I think
• 1:21:52
  that the everything that you do and and really what I'm trying to do on this podcast is to
• 1:21:59
  is to make sure that people don't shrug off opportunity or circumstances in the moment that could
• 1:22:10
  seem so innocuous and really not that significant but if you shrug off those opportunities
• 1:22:17
  or circumstances repeatedly then you wake up in your 6570 and you've gone your whole career
• 1:22:24
  not taking that next step or being okay with more work with less pay or any number of things
• 1:22:30
  that basically lead to a mediocre subpar life I don't know please that's what we're trying to
• 1:22:35
  you're a hundred percent right settling uh emotionally settling mentally settling
• 1:22:43
  professionally you will settle you will actually go like this it's settled to the settled to the
• 1:22:49
  bottom just like if I put a bunch of dirt in a jimasa jar right now full of water that dirt is
• 1:22:54
  going to settle at the bottom and I feel like that that kind of this movement right here I can see
• 1:23:00
  that dirt if you will that is moving around a little bit and that that's what down yeah I think
• 1:23:06
  that that's you know now let me say this on the other converse side it working through difficult
• 1:23:15
  situations and working through a difficult leader and and and kind of being the bigger person
• 1:23:21
  and realizing this is not enough to push me out this is probably it might feel good emotionally
• 1:23:28
  but it's not necessarily good on this side there's some maturity there too to go all right I'm just
• 1:23:32
  gonna have to deal with that because we deal with difficult family members that takes giving
• 1:23:39
  so that you know being mature and pressing through difficult leaders or difficult situations
• 1:23:48
  doesn't mean you're settling so you've got to have the maturity and know the difference
• 1:23:52
  what is settling versus what is you know maturing and and being resilient and rising above
• 1:24:00
  there's a there's a difference there I just wanted to point that out what we're describing is
• 1:24:04
  is not settling it's okay can I work my way through it and and sometimes I got to move on
• 1:24:10
  and sometimes I need to stay and and be okay with it yeah but the maturity is you know to understand
• 1:24:18
  which which there's two options always and you have to and and by the way if you apply
• 1:24:24
  some of of your discernment and and looking at situations through multiple lenses again that's
• 1:24:32
  an applicable skill set that can that can really help improve your life across exactly right it allows
• 1:24:38
  us to get out of the presence got and look yeah the future and go all right I've got to have always
• 1:24:43
  this juxtaposition between what's the right thing to do in the now that sets me up for the next
• 1:24:49
  not just be like now now now I feel this way I feel this way we'll get over it buttercup
• 1:24:56
  you know art ship and adversity is the fire that that forges the steel and and understand the
• 1:25:04
  blacksmith man they take an inanimate piece of iron stick in the fire and then pull it out and
• 1:25:11
  beat the ever living crap out of it and repeat repeat repeat fire beating fire beating fire
• 1:25:16
  beating on the other end of it is a really awesome usable tool so I just I always want to point
• 1:25:21
  out that the exit the hitting the exit ramp sometimes is the worst thing you can do you know
• 1:25:27
  understand that we're all forged by the fire in the pounding and there it would know I have
• 1:25:33
  the maturity to realize oh this is a season of forging and pounding and and on the other side of
• 1:25:39
  this I'm I'm really going to be about I love that all right Ken where should people reach out to
• 1:25:47
  you now you're going to have a whole bunch of people calling in trying to fix their life fix
• 1:25:51
  their business so where are they going to go yeah Ken Coleman dot com is is just an easy place to
• 1:25:56
  go to see where the show is you can get the Ken Coleman show wherever you listen to podcasts it's
• 1:26:01
  also on YouTube and there's phone numbers and ways for you to email your question in and all
• 1:26:06
  that so that in Colbert dot com is just the easiest place to connect and social and all that stuff
• 1:26:12
  amazing and like honestly man congratulations on the work that you do because again live
• 1:26:17
  live coaching is not easy so anybody who's listening to this go try and stump Ken go try and give
• 1:26:23
  him your your best or your worst question because again you probably follow a lot of people you
• 1:26:29
  have all these people you look up to that you learn from but to be able to do it live in real time
• 1:26:35
  is a whole other level so I think that that's super admirable yeah no no seriously um okay one last
• 1:26:42
  one last thought or one last piece of wisdom or advice uh something that you want to leave the
• 1:26:48
  audience with that you would tell your younger self I don't think I would tell my younger self
• 1:26:54
  anything because I don't want to give my younger self a cheat code I don't want to give my younger
• 1:27:02
  self the benefit of shortcut uh and I and I I've answered that question a lot I've never answered it
• 1:27:12
  that way and I'm just in a season right now where I believe that's my answer and I'm not trying to
• 1:27:19
  be a contrarian to the question I because I think that's the answer I think that
• 1:27:29
  the struggle is what gives us the strength and I just turned 50 and Lord willing I'm not a
• 1:27:40
  or close to done I am sitting here today talking to you believe me in my 50s and 60s the next 20
• 1:27:48
  years will be my greatest impact I can't tell you what that is I've learned a long time ago to stop
• 1:27:54
  trying to predict it or plan it I'm on the right path but I sit here today looking at you as a 50
• 1:28:01
  year old saying I wouldn't tell my 20 year old self anything other than maybe keep on keeping on maybe
• 1:28:08
  that's what I I wouldn't give advice I would just say keep on keeping on I've managed to do that
• 1:28:14
  but I I just believe it all the struggles and I could tell you struggle after struggle after
• 1:28:19
  struggle after struggle after struggle in my personal life with my family in my physical life
• 1:28:28
  my professional life mental I could I could I could tell you some amazing battle stories
• 1:28:34
  and every one of those were storms that I've been able to walk through and as a result that
• 1:28:41
  struggle has given me the strength to do what I'm uniquely wired to do now and the struggles I
• 1:28:48
  face tomorrow set me up for the strength that I need five years from now 10 years out and so
• 1:28:54
  that's my real answer I I would just go you got a kid you bonk keeping on I know extra shortcuts
• 1:29:00
  because that would rob me of the struggle and I think we have gotten way out of whack in this country
• 1:29:08
  as parents and I'll raise my hand to I don't want to pick on anybody I'm talking to me I don't
• 1:29:15
  way anybody get offended let me provoke you to say not that they'll get offended my generation we've
• 1:29:21
  been terrible at it I'm raising three Gen Z teenagers and I could tell you that if I were to do
• 1:29:29
  anything over again I would have let them struggle more it is the nature of parenting to remove
• 1:29:35
  the struggle and now we've been marketed to remove the struggle remove the struggle safety safety safety
• 1:29:42
  safety and I think it is the experience with danger and failure that ultimately shapes us the best