Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Linda Perry

Transcript

Linda Perry · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

0:08
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to
0:13
Speaker 1: all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist,
0:16
Speaker 1: which you can find a link to in the show
0:18
Speaker 1: notes for licensing reasons. Each time a song is referenced
0:22
Speaker 1: in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right,
0:28
Speaker 1: enjoy the episode. You know, when you're on stage live
0:33
Speaker 1: and there's that whole crowd out there, there's a whole
0:35
Speaker 1: other adrenaline we're vibing off of. We're playing with Dolly
0:40
Speaker 1: fucking Parton at the Grammys. You got to be in
0:43
Speaker 1: the moment, man, Linda Perry. If you don't immediately recognize
0:47
Speaker 1: the name, you'll know her songs. That last one was
0:52
Speaker 1: a huge hit in the nineteen nineties for Linda's group
0:55
Speaker 1: Four Non Blondes. She's since become one of the most
0:58
Speaker 1: sought after songwriters and one of the only women considered
1:02
Speaker 1: a go to producer in the business. She's worked with
1:05
Speaker 1: Alicia Keys, Gwen Stefani, Celine dion Adele, and she reinvented
1:11
Speaker 1: the careers of Pink and Christina Aguilera. I met Linda
1:15
Speaker 1: North Hollywood at the first hout she ever bought in
1:17
Speaker 1: La She since transformed it into a beautiful recording studio.
1:21
Speaker 1: It's one of the most inviting creative spaces I've ever
1:24
Speaker 1: been in. When we met that day, I thought I'd
1:27
Speaker 1: be talking to someone obsessed with writing and producing hits.
1:31
Speaker 1: I couldn't have been more wrong. The level of songwriting
1:37
Speaker 1: is so low right now. I mean, do you think
1:40
Speaker 1: it's lower than it's been in the past. It's to
1:42
Speaker 1: me the worst it's ever been because everything. When you
1:47
Speaker 1: have Sony ATV and all these companies signing songwriters that
1:52
Speaker 1: have absolutely that never actually wrote a whole entire song
1:55
Speaker 1: by themselves, but they wrote a third of a top line,
1:59
Speaker 1: there's just something not right about that. It turns out
2:02
Speaker 1: Linda Perry, who's responsible for so many hits over the
2:05
Speaker 1: past two decades, isn't interested in manufactured pop, but in
2:09
Speaker 1: creating deep, impactful songs that will last. I'm Bruce Headlam
2:14
Speaker 1: and this is broken record. So we're talking to you
2:38
Speaker 1: today for many many reasons. One is that you were
2:43
Speaker 1: nominated for Producer of the Year at the Grammys this year.
2:48
Speaker 1: What amazed me was you hadn't been nominated before. Were
2:52
Speaker 1: you surprised when you were nominated? Unfortunately, I expected it
2:58
Speaker 1: because of the conditions of the world, because it's like,
3:02
Speaker 1: why didn't I get nominated before? Like why this one?
3:06
Speaker 1: And the fact that the last time that was And
3:10
Speaker 1: I could get this wrong so you can fact check me,
3:14
Speaker 1: but I believe the person who did get the last
3:17
Speaker 1: nomination that was a female was Lauren Christy, but she
3:22
Speaker 1: was part of a team that had two guys in it,
3:25
Speaker 1: so it was the matrix got the nomination. She happened
3:28
Speaker 1: to be in the matrix, so it's not that she
3:31
Speaker 1: got it solely, but it was her and two other guys.
3:35
Speaker 1: But the fact that the Grammys have been was it
3:38
Speaker 1: sixty three years? Yeah, something like that that a woman
3:42
Speaker 1: has never won is a bigger situation to me. Sod
3:47
Speaker 1: and rarely been nominated. So people should be eligible and
3:51
Speaker 1: represented because they're good, not because of who they are.
3:57
Speaker 1: And that's just where I just want life to get to.
3:59
Speaker 1: It's it's like, right now we're in a place like
4:02
Speaker 1: are we really choosing the best people for the job,
4:06
Speaker 1: or are we choosing them because we need this race
4:10
Speaker 1: or gender or diversity. And That's where I'm waiting to
4:15
Speaker 1: get out of because it's I want just people to
4:19
Speaker 1: know that they're just chosen because they're great. I mean,
4:22
Speaker 1: that's at issue, and that's the criticism a lot of
4:25
Speaker 1: forms of affirmative action and all kinds of things. Do
4:29
Speaker 1: you have to go through a period where necessarily something
4:33
Speaker 1: like the Academy says, yes, we have to honor women
4:35
Speaker 1: until you get to that business. That's what I'm trying
4:37
Speaker 1: to say. It's like, I'm waiting for this period to
4:39
Speaker 1: be over right now, right, so we can just we
4:43
Speaker 1: all got the information, the cats out of the bag,
4:47
Speaker 1: the bad guys have been pointed out at now let's
4:50
Speaker 1: move forward, yeah, to the real stuff. And I don't
4:55
Speaker 1: want to ever be honored for something that I don't
4:59
Speaker 1: deserve only because I wear cool hats and I'm a chick,
5:04
Speaker 1: you know. I want to earn and know that I
5:09
Speaker 1: got chosen because I am great at what I do,
5:12
Speaker 1: and I do believe that. But I don't ever want
5:15
Speaker 1: it to be a question to everybody else. But you've
5:18
Speaker 1: been great at what you do for a fairly long time. Yeah,
5:22
Speaker 1: and there weren't times in the past you thought what
5:25
Speaker 1: do I have to do here? Yeah? You know, I
5:27
Speaker 1: just don't operate that way. Like I've sold millions of records,
5:33
Speaker 1: I've have awards. Do you see anything in the studio
5:37
Speaker 1: that represents a plaque and an award? No, in your
5:42
Speaker 1: won't find it anywhere. You won't find it in the bathroom.
5:44
Speaker 1: You won't find it hidden in the closet, you won't
5:47
Speaker 1: find it in the garage. It's just not who I am.
5:50
Speaker 1: I don't base my beliefs on how people see me,
5:58
Speaker 1: or by a trophy or a plaque or being honored.
6:03
Speaker 1: I've never so it slips my mind. You know. My
6:07
Speaker 1: intention is always to just be the best that I
6:11
Speaker 1: possibly can. If my intention was ever I want to
6:15
Speaker 1: be I want to win that, then I have a
6:19
Speaker 1: personal problem with myself. One of the people who walked
6:23
Speaker 1: through the door recently in this beautiful house turned studio
6:27
Speaker 1: was Dolly Parton. And you hadn't done country music before.
6:34
Speaker 1: I don't think did you have a love of country music?
6:38
Speaker 1: Or my ego wanted to take over Nashville about twelve
6:44
Speaker 1: years ago. Nashville was not having it, and they threw
6:47
Speaker 1: me out the door. I have an obsession with Nashville.
6:51
Speaker 1: I've always felt that Nashville needed me, and I wanted
6:55
Speaker 1: to go in there and I wanted to find the
6:57
Speaker 1: Patsy Clins. I wanted to find the Willie Nelson's. I
7:00
Speaker 1: wanted to find Roy and Johnny and Loretta, Like, where's that.
7:07
Speaker 1: Why isn't that, you know, happening right now? Where's those dark,
7:13
Speaker 1: brooding country stars that told these incredible stories. It's like
7:19
Speaker 1: it all just sounds like, let's think of something that
7:23
Speaker 1: sounds like beer bottles and Jack Daniels, you know, or whatever.
7:28
Speaker 1: And to me, that's it's like taking the jazz out
7:32
Speaker 1: of jazz. So country music to me, I was brought
7:36
Speaker 1: up and my father loved country music, country music and
7:40
Speaker 1: Frank Sinatra, so it's it's in my I mean, I
7:45
Speaker 1: can write, I can write, I can go be country
7:47
Speaker 1: if I wanted to, I make a whole country album.
7:50
Speaker 1: It's in me somehow. So that didn't work out, And okakay,
7:56
Speaker 1: tell me how you said your ego try to take over. Well,
7:58
Speaker 1: I went to go. I went out there to work
8:00
Speaker 1: with Faith Hill, and I wrote some really great songs
8:03
Speaker 1: for her. One was like a gospel and one was
8:05
Speaker 1: a great country song, and she was over the moon.
8:10
Speaker 1: Basically as soon as I left the studio in the car,
8:13
Speaker 1: her manager called my manager at the time and said,
8:16
Speaker 1: you know these songs will never see the light of day.
8:19
Speaker 1: They're not going to go on any faith Hill record,
8:22
Speaker 1: Like it was crazy. And then I guess people were
8:26
Speaker 1: upset at her for bringing an outsider, so it was
8:31
Speaker 1: just obviously not a good fit for me. And then
8:36
Speaker 1: so the fact that when this all full circle came
8:39
Speaker 1: back around what ten twelve years later, and I'm getting
8:43
Speaker 1: an opportunity to go work with Dolly Parton, I was like, fuck, yes,
8:49
Speaker 1: you know. I told the music supervisor Buck Damon, like,
8:52
Speaker 1: don't you dare go hire anybody else. I am the
8:54
Speaker 1: right person for this job. And then because there was
8:58
Speaker 1: somebody else, he was going to look at that more qualified,
9:01
Speaker 1: you know. And because I had to do with like
9:04
Speaker 1: a little bit of scoring too, like be able to
9:05
Speaker 1: take the songs that I write and weave them through
9:09
Speaker 1: the movie. So then I was I had this whole
9:13
Speaker 1: brainstorm like, well, they want me to write one song
9:17
Speaker 1: with her and re record one old song, and I said,
9:22
Speaker 1: now we got to do a whole album. I'm gonna
9:24
Speaker 1: get together Dolly Parton. I'm writing an album with her.
9:26
Speaker 1: I'm doing a whole album. So I came up with
9:29
Speaker 1: the idea to do five redos, like you know, and
9:31
Speaker 1: get duets, you know. So I get to see it,
9:34
Speaker 1: and I start picking out people that I thought would
9:36
Speaker 1: be a great fit, not who was most popular, but
9:39
Speaker 1: what would be a great fit for Dolly's voice, and
9:42
Speaker 1: put that all together. And then when her and I
9:44
Speaker 1: finally met and she heard these songs, she was like,
9:48
Speaker 1: holy smoke. The when when they told me you're gonna
9:52
Speaker 1: I was gonna work with Lynda pair I said, okay,
9:54
Speaker 1: I do. She's like, you know, I thought you were
9:56
Speaker 1: going to take the songs more pop, and I was
9:59
Speaker 1: gonna be fine with that. I wouldn't have said anything,
10:01
Speaker 1: you know, and because she would not have liked that
10:03
Speaker 1: at all. So you wrote the songs not with her,
10:05
Speaker 1: but no, I re recorded the songs the re records,
10:10
Speaker 1: like here I Am Dune Blonde. I got in here
10:13
Speaker 1: the band. I put a band together that were not
10:16
Speaker 1: session players and they were not from Nashville, recorded it here,
10:20
Speaker 1: had someone sing the parts down for her, and then
10:23
Speaker 1: I sent that those are just the re records. And
10:27
Speaker 1: then when we met and she was so happy with
10:30
Speaker 1: what it sounded like. She was like, it sounds modern,
10:32
Speaker 1: but it doesn't. It sounds like me. And it's like
10:35
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm just sitting in my chair and
10:37
Speaker 1: spinning and loving this and whatever. And she's like, so,
10:40
Speaker 1: what do you want? We had? I guess we're gonna
10:42
Speaker 1: write tomorrow. And everybody's like saying, Dolly hasn't written with anybody.
10:45
Speaker 1: You know, she doesn't write with people, and she hasn't
10:49
Speaker 1: she hasn't written in a while, so good luck you
10:53
Speaker 1: know to that. And I'm like, okay, don't worry. I'm
10:55
Speaker 1: not worried at all. So when we met, we just
10:58
Speaker 1: instantly got along. And she's like, so, you know, we're
11:01
Speaker 1: gonna writing session tomorrow. What are you expecting. And I'm like, well,
11:05
Speaker 1: we're gonna sit down and just hang out. She's like, well,
11:08
Speaker 1: just so you know, I just don't write with people
11:10
Speaker 1: and it's been a while since I've written a song.
11:13
Speaker 1: She's like, are you you have a number in mind?
11:15
Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, I feel like five or six.
11:17
Speaker 1: And she just like looked at me and started laughing,
11:20
Speaker 1: and she was like, okay, well let's just get one,
11:23
Speaker 1: you know. And it two days. We wrote six songs.
11:27
Speaker 1: It was just like bang, bang bang bang. We just
11:30
Speaker 1: hit it off. It literally, she's like a close friend
11:34
Speaker 1: now and We talked to each other like at least
11:37
Speaker 1: twice a week, and she's an incredible inspiration and her
11:43
Speaker 1: talent is obviously beyond belief, and her storytelling is that
11:49
Speaker 1: of what I've been missing. So we wrote these great
11:52
Speaker 1: fucking songs. And it doesn't sound modern, but it doesn't
11:56
Speaker 1: sound old, but it sounds like Dolly. Still, how did
11:59
Speaker 1: you start to write with You're in a room. Were
12:00
Speaker 1: you in this room with her? No, I was in Nashville.
12:03
Speaker 1: You were in Nashville. So you're sitting down in her place.
12:05
Speaker 1: She has a place where she calls it the villa.
12:08
Speaker 1: She had her long nails, so she didn't want to
12:09
Speaker 1: play guitar. Just pick up the guitar and I start
12:11
Speaker 1: coming up with ideas just like that. You didn't did
12:14
Speaker 1: you talk much? First? Yeah? We talked, and then we
12:17
Speaker 1: just it was time to create. You know, when there's
12:19
Speaker 1: time to create, there's no talking. You just go into create. Really,
12:22
Speaker 1: you just flip a switch, just flip a switch. And
12:25
Speaker 1: it was funny because the bob that was in there,
12:28
Speaker 1: he was like, what are you guys doing. It's like,
12:29
Speaker 1: we're just writing songs and he's like, that's another good one.
12:32
Speaker 1: And then we did it again. So the first day
12:35
Speaker 1: was three songs, the second day was three songs. Then
12:38
Speaker 1: she took it and wrote lyrics on the second night
12:42
Speaker 1: to all of the songs, and then by the third
12:44
Speaker 1: day she came and we recorded them down with the lyrics,
12:49
Speaker 1: and then I came here with those songs and recorded them,
12:54
Speaker 1: and then she showed up and then we did the vocals.
12:56
Speaker 1: So she then wrote the lyrics in a day to
12:59
Speaker 1: all the songs. Yeah, and she also came and sang
13:03
Speaker 1: all of those songs in one day. Was she surprised
13:06
Speaker 1: how fast you were doing it? She was surprised, Yeah,
13:09
Speaker 1: because she's written a lot of songs. She's written like
13:11
Speaker 1: five thousand songs. Yeah, she was surprised how easy it
13:15
Speaker 1: was with the two of us. But then she calls
13:16
Speaker 1: me her creative soulmate. She and I are very very
13:20
Speaker 1: similar when we have a lot of we're very the
13:23
Speaker 1: same when it comes to work. It's like we're very
13:26
Speaker 1: hardcore about our work ethics and we're workers, and so
13:30
Speaker 1: it was like easy, writing songs should be easy. You
13:35
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to labor over writing a song when you're
13:38
Speaker 1: laboring when you're like I've heard I hear people about
13:42
Speaker 1: working on a song for a week, Like you've been
13:44
Speaker 1: writing a song for a fucking week? Are you kidding me?
13:47
Speaker 1: It's time to let go and move on, you know,
13:50
Speaker 1: And especially if it's taken five of you to write
13:52
Speaker 1: a song in one week, there's a bigger problem there.
13:55
Speaker 1: And Dolly and I just went We just had a
13:58
Speaker 1: creative flow and we just took advantage of the energy
14:01
Speaker 1: that was going on. And then she showed up on
14:04
Speaker 1: the third day with all the lyrics and we just
14:07
Speaker 1: recorded it down. It is a god. These are incredible.
14:12
Speaker 1: And then when I got here, I recorded all the songs,
14:16
Speaker 1: sent them ahead. She came down here and walked in
14:20
Speaker 1: and sang all six songs in one day. I was like,
14:24
Speaker 1: are you fucking kidding me? Like what, I can't even
14:28
Speaker 1: get a young artist to come in and sing one
14:32
Speaker 1: song in a day. Dolly Parton at seventy three walked
14:36
Speaker 1: in here and sang six very difficult songs in one day. Okay,
14:41
Speaker 1: So that part impressed you, that she could writing fast
14:44
Speaker 1: doesn't impress you. But singing six songs in a day,
14:47
Speaker 1: because it's you have to understand, Dolly. Normally, a woman
14:52
Speaker 1: loses their high range as they get older. Dolly is
14:57
Speaker 1: singing all her songs and all the original keys. There's
15:01
Speaker 1: no change does all in the original keys. Wow. And
15:08
Speaker 1: that is extremely impressive because like I've known artists at
15:12
Speaker 1: twenty and then I see him again at thirty and
15:16
Speaker 1: they're already they can't even get In fact, I have
15:19
Speaker 1: an artist that isn't even singing all her songs right now,
15:23
Speaker 1: and she's really new and she's already dropping the keys
15:27
Speaker 1: down to preserve her voice. Dolly, Dolly's in it. She's
15:31
Speaker 1: a singer, She's that's all even. She's a writer and
15:35
Speaker 1: she's a singer. She's a performer. She's Dolly Parton, one
15:39
Speaker 1: of the most recognizable people on this planet. Yeah you know.
15:43
Speaker 1: And she does not take her name lightly like she
15:47
Speaker 1: wants to know that Dolly Parton did all this, like
15:52
Speaker 1: it's a Dolly Parton is her business and she does.
15:57
Speaker 1: She practice every day? Does she She's writing all the time.
15:59
Speaker 1: She says that she's you know, I always get around
16:02
Speaker 1: with her. I'm like, do you really, like what do
16:04
Speaker 1: you do at home? Like are you you know? Because
16:07
Speaker 1: she's always decked out, yeah you know, And I'm like,
16:11
Speaker 1: are you do you go to a store. Do you
16:13
Speaker 1: go to a store? And if you do, you know?
16:16
Speaker 1: And I'm convinced she has a whole other life, because
16:19
Speaker 1: once you take off all that stuff, there's got to
16:22
Speaker 1: be you can't recognize her, I'm certain. So she'll laugh
16:26
Speaker 1: and I'm like, do you have another lifestyle going on?
16:28
Speaker 1: And she's like, you never know. Well, she also taps
16:32
Speaker 1: into clearly her early life. Yeah, very easily, because girl
16:38
Speaker 1: to movies to me, I mean it's it's a different period,
16:44
Speaker 1: but it reminded me of Code of many Colors. Yeah,
16:47
Speaker 1: well that's some saying that Dolly won't write just for
16:50
Speaker 1: a movie. She has to relate to it. So the
16:54
Speaker 1: inspiration was, how can I write some stories that are
17:00
Speaker 1: are going to be fulfilling to me emotionally and support
17:04
Speaker 1: this film and the characters. But the people you have
17:08
Speaker 1: worked with were very consciously or maybe not consciously when
17:12
Speaker 1: they showed up trying to make a change in their career,
17:17
Speaker 1: trying to sort of push limits. I think of the
17:20
Speaker 1: first Pink album you did, certainly the albums you did
17:24
Speaker 1: with Christine Aguiler and those are those are probably your
17:27
Speaker 1: most famous albums. Is that process different than what working
17:31
Speaker 1: with someone like Dolly Parton, who's such a pro. When
17:34
Speaker 1: someone else comes in here, how do you work with them? Well,
17:37
Speaker 1: I still was changing Dolly. I told her, I said,
17:41
Speaker 1: I'm going to change it up a little bit, you know,
17:44
Speaker 1: because when you listen to Dolly Parton records, there's a
17:48
Speaker 1: lot going on in the production. And I told her
17:51
Speaker 1: I was going to clean out everything. I just warned
17:53
Speaker 1: them and I said, I didn't want to make this
17:56
Speaker 1: a Nashville country album. I just wanted it to have
17:59
Speaker 1: a cool feel. I wanted to divibe, and they were
18:04
Speaker 1: all up for it. And you know, she has this
18:07
Speaker 1: song called here I Am that. I'm shocked it was
18:10
Speaker 1: never a single, so see us sing it with her.
18:15
Speaker 1: It's such a big song and it never was a
18:18
Speaker 1: single in the seventies. But I listened to it and
18:21
Speaker 1: I'm like, well I could see why it was. It
18:23
Speaker 1: was just a lot was going on, you know, So
18:27
Speaker 1: Dolly doesn't need someone like me. But what I offered,
18:31
Speaker 1: and what I came in with was giving kind of
18:34
Speaker 1: like a a flip a little bit like I just
18:38
Speaker 1: flipped it, you know, kind of just gave her a
18:41
Speaker 1: tiny little not makeover, but more of a like a
18:44
Speaker 1: let's just get you a little bit more present into
18:47
Speaker 1: the here and now. What were the musical aesthetics you
18:51
Speaker 1: wanted to change? The music was just taking all the
18:54
Speaker 1: twang out and all the it was like the Nashville
18:58
Speaker 1: out of it. Because those players incredible players, but it's
19:02
Speaker 1: hard to get a grip on them, and then there's
19:04
Speaker 1: no feel. It's just guys going in a room and
19:08
Speaker 1: they're clocking in and they're taking their fifteen minute break,
19:12
Speaker 1: you know. But guys in bands they don't do that.
19:16
Speaker 1: They work for pizza and beer and they're done until
19:19
Speaker 1: they're done, and the heart of it comes from that,
19:24
Speaker 1: you know. So that was the biggest thing she heard
19:26
Speaker 1: that right off the top. Like one of the biggest
19:29
Speaker 1: compliments I recently just received was, you know, I put
19:34
Speaker 1: together her Grammy performance with that same band and the
19:39
Speaker 1: sound everything, and after the performance, I did the whole medley,
19:43
Speaker 1: you know, and and Ken Erlek said that he's never
19:47
Speaker 1: let somebody do that before, so he just let me
19:51
Speaker 1: do the medley, put it all together, and it came
19:55
Speaker 1: out incredible. It was a big hit and everybody remembers it. Yeah.
19:58
Speaker 1: So then I'm out there, I'm about to go sit
20:01
Speaker 1: down and Beck comes up to me, and you know,
20:04
Speaker 1: Beck doesn't talk a lot, and he comes up to
20:06
Speaker 1: me and he's all, that was great, you know, really
20:10
Speaker 1: like mellow And I'm like, thank you. He's like, so,
20:14
Speaker 1: who is the band? Like, would it be anybody I know?
20:17
Speaker 1: And I'm like no. He's like, are they studio players?
20:22
Speaker 1: I'm like no, I said, they're all from you know,
20:24
Speaker 1: I'm talking in his like you know, like this lower
20:27
Speaker 1: level and I'm like no, back, I go there, they're friends,
20:31
Speaker 1: they're from bands. And he's like, you could totally tell.
20:36
Speaker 1: That was really great. They had a great feel. And
20:39
Speaker 1: that is exactly what I was trying to go for,
20:42
Speaker 1: is that when all the musicians in that room could
20:45
Speaker 1: hear the difference of all of what you normally get
20:50
Speaker 1: on the Grammys. And what was even funnier is that
20:52
Speaker 1: they kept calling me the Grammys would ask me for
20:55
Speaker 1: the files and I'm all, what files, Like, well, when
20:59
Speaker 1: you can't, just can you just send us over the files?
21:01
Speaker 1: And I kept on going, what files are you talking about?
21:04
Speaker 1: You know, They're like, you know the tracks? Oh, I
21:07
Speaker 1: go no, dude, this is live. Oh okay. And then
21:12
Speaker 1: I'd get a call the next day do you when
21:15
Speaker 1: do you think you'll have those files over to us?
21:18
Speaker 1: The sessions, And I'm like, I'm going to say it again.
21:21
Speaker 1: We are playing live. There's no clicks, there's no back
21:26
Speaker 1: click track or none of that. We're playing live. At
21:29
Speaker 1: this point, Linda stepped out to take a phone call,
21:32
Speaker 1: so we'll take a break too. When we come back,
21:34
Speaker 1: we'll have more with Linda Perry. We're back with Linda Perry.
21:45
Speaker 1: So your background, you grew up not here, You grew
21:49
Speaker 1: up East, is that right? I grew up in San Diego.
21:52
Speaker 1: I was born in Boston, but I was only one
21:54
Speaker 1: years one year old, and then I moved to San Diego.
21:59
Speaker 1: And guitar was your first instrument. Guitar, Yeah, I just
22:03
Speaker 1: started kind of singing writing. It just all kind of
22:05
Speaker 1: fell together. And then and what age did you know
22:09
Speaker 1: that was going to be it? I didn't, So I
22:14
Speaker 1: never looked at it as music. I just knew I
22:17
Speaker 1: was different and I was special. So I would like
22:23
Speaker 1: do stuff like interview myself. At the time, we had
22:27
Speaker 1: Mike Douglas and the mrv Griffin Show, and I'd be
22:30
Speaker 1: on the MURV Griffin Show, Hey in my room, and well,
22:34
Speaker 1: now we're going to bring back Linda Perry. Oh, it's
22:36
Speaker 1: so good to have you back, Linda. And I never
22:39
Speaker 1: know why I'm on the show, but i'd be like,
22:40
Speaker 1: thanks merv. Oh yeah, it feels good to be here
22:44
Speaker 1: and everybody, and I see the plause, I see everybody.
22:47
Speaker 1: I'm doing this interview and everything, but there was no
22:50
Speaker 1: clear understanding of what it was I was famous and
22:54
Speaker 1: on the show for, and then everything that I did
22:58
Speaker 1: was modeled after this very confidence. Whatever it was the way,
23:05
Speaker 1: it was never clear way anybody was on the merv
23:07
Speaker 1: of Griffin. Yeah, I remember, it was like and then
23:11
Speaker 1: and then it got to school and I just could
23:14
Speaker 1: not you know, I'm very I'm not good in school.
23:18
Speaker 1: I'm not good with learning something like it's hard for
23:22
Speaker 1: you to teach me something. So I got out of
23:26
Speaker 1: school very early, like eighth grade. But I kept telling
23:30
Speaker 1: myself this was okay because what I'm going to be
23:34
Speaker 1: I don't need school. I don't need to know math
23:38
Speaker 1: and social studies and this is going to be of
23:41
Speaker 1: no use for me. Well, what are you going to do, Linda.
23:44
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know it's not okay. I'm
23:48
Speaker 1: going to stop you right there, because as beautiful as
23:53
Speaker 1: this room is there is a there's the studio room
23:56
Speaker 1: over there with all the equipment and I'll bet you
23:58
Speaker 1: know that equipment backwards and forward. Yeah, I had to
24:01
Speaker 1: buy it and teach myself how to do it. Okay,
24:03
Speaker 1: but that it is a room that would scare most
24:05
Speaker 1: engineers a general dynamic, yes, but you were able to
24:10
Speaker 1: teach yourself even things that complicated. Yeah, well, it's really
24:14
Speaker 1: not that complicated once you understand what the each item does,
24:17
Speaker 1: because everything has a category. There's eques. That's pretty self
24:21
Speaker 1: explanatory to me. You got your lows, you got your midge,
24:24
Speaker 1: you get your highs, and you just turn the knobs
24:26
Speaker 1: until it sounds good, and then you have compression, and
24:29
Speaker 1: compression you get to play with because you don't got
24:33
Speaker 1: a certain amount of knobs on that one, and so
24:34
Speaker 1: you just turn it. There's thresholds, there's attacks, there's all
24:38
Speaker 1: this stuff and you figure it out like you know, oh,
24:40
Speaker 1: oh that's what that does. It was like I did
24:43
Speaker 1: this album for nun Blong's album, which I just can't
24:50
Speaker 1: bear listening to it. It's ridiculously bad to me. The
24:54
Speaker 1: sound we are good, you know, the band was a
24:59
Speaker 1: good band and still like the songs on it, kind
25:01
Speaker 1: of some of them, but the song, the sound of
25:05
Speaker 1: the record is like atrocious to me. You know, what's
25:09
Speaker 1: up with the only song I recorded? I did that one?
25:13
Speaker 1: So you recorded that one? I recorded What's up? Okay?
25:16
Speaker 1: So it wasn't the was it not David Tickle? I
25:18
Speaker 1: recorded that because David Tickle's version was terrible, so I
25:22
Speaker 1: re recorded it. So when I would ask him questions
25:26
Speaker 1: about why does this sound like this or whatever? I
25:29
Speaker 1: would be met with can't you just be the singer
25:32
Speaker 1: and let me just be the producer and be happy
25:35
Speaker 1: with that? And then when I'd go to the label
25:38
Speaker 1: to tell them how unhappy I was with what was
25:41
Speaker 1: going on, I would be met with the exact same thing.
25:45
Speaker 1: Can't you just be happy knowing that you're you know,
25:48
Speaker 1: being involved and your voice is being heard, and he's
25:52
Speaker 1: gonna change some things. I'm like, no, that's my point.
25:55
Speaker 1: He's not. He's telling me to be a singer. And
25:58
Speaker 1: if I'm just a singer, well then there's a bigger
26:00
Speaker 1: problem here because I'm not. I'm the main songwriter and
26:04
Speaker 1: I am the singer, but more importantly, I'm the you know,
26:08
Speaker 1: fronting this band, and I have a bigger vision than
26:11
Speaker 1: what's happening here. So anyways, so how did you do that?
26:16
Speaker 1: I mean, nobody wanted you to record the song. No,
26:19
Speaker 1: I was miserable with this version because it had a
26:22
Speaker 1: solo in it. He had me change lyrics. There's a
26:24
Speaker 1: marching drum, all this craziness, and so we were pretty
26:29
Speaker 1: much done. We had one reala tape left and we said,
26:33
Speaker 1: can we have that? And so we took the real
26:36
Speaker 1: tape and I called the plant in Salsilito. It's like,
26:40
Speaker 1: we don't have any money. The label's not going to
26:43
Speaker 1: give us any more money, but we have to re
26:45
Speaker 1: record a song and we have one REALA type. Can
26:49
Speaker 1: we come in? And they're of course, And so I
26:51
Speaker 1: think our manager worked out some kind of really great
26:54
Speaker 1: little spec deal whatever. I don't know, but barely anything.
26:57
Speaker 1: They were so supportive of us there with their house engineer,
27:02
Speaker 1: and I sat with him and just started dialing in sounds.
27:06
Speaker 1: I don't had you ever been behind a console before, No,
27:10
Speaker 1: not at all, but I watched everything, So I just
27:13
Speaker 1: started dialing in sounds with him, learning from him. Hey,
27:17
Speaker 1: I'm not liking the way this kick drum sounds. I'm
27:19
Speaker 1: gonna go move it, move the microphone around you happy
27:23
Speaker 1: with that? That sounds great, guitar tones, vocal tone great.
27:28
Speaker 1: We get our take. We mix it that night because
27:31
Speaker 1: we're masterinus the next day, so we mix it that night.
27:36
Speaker 1: We're there all night long, and we barely made that
27:39
Speaker 1: version onto the record. And then when I was telling
27:42
Speaker 1: my manager, I feel like I should get producer on this,
27:46
Speaker 1: my own manager was like, I don't think that's going
27:48
Speaker 1: to happen. You know, they already have the deal. And
27:50
Speaker 1: then I asked Tom Wally, I'm like, I feel like
27:52
Speaker 1: I should get producer on this, and he can't. You
27:55
Speaker 1: be happy that you are part of it. It's your band,
28:00
Speaker 1: it you saved the day, But why can't I get production?
28:05
Speaker 1: I produced this, David didn't. David's production has a solo
28:10
Speaker 1: and a dumb marching drum, and this song wouldn't have
28:13
Speaker 1: been a hit if it was for David, you know. Anyways,
28:16
Speaker 1: So that was my first experience, and then from then
28:19
Speaker 1: on out it was I just constantly asked questions and
28:24
Speaker 1: I started buying gear as soon as we started making money.
28:27
Speaker 1: I worked with Bill Batrell on a solo album, and
28:30
Speaker 1: he taught me everything he taught. He said, all the
28:32
Speaker 1: right things to me, turn the knobs until it sounds
28:35
Speaker 1: good to your ears. There's nothing right or wrong, and
28:40
Speaker 1: this is what this does. This, And so I just
28:42
Speaker 1: started buying equipment and then a bunch of it just
28:46
Speaker 1: sat in my warehouse in San Francisco and I would
28:51
Speaker 1: look at it and I just started kind of piecing
28:55
Speaker 1: it together. And it took me months to figure out
28:58
Speaker 1: how to put it all together. I mean, I'm talking
29:00
Speaker 1: about twenty four channel board, talking about nave pres compressors,
29:08
Speaker 1: the machine, all of it. And I just kept going
29:13
Speaker 1: at it every single day until I fully understood. And
29:16
Speaker 1: then I got it all in. And then I had
29:18
Speaker 1: to call this one guy just to hardwire some things
29:21
Speaker 1: for me that I was like, Oh, okay, I get it.
29:23
Speaker 1: I can't make this work. Has to be hardwired into
29:26
Speaker 1: the board, So like, can you come do this for me?
29:28
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about that, you know. So it
29:31
Speaker 1: was was it scary getting up every day and looking
29:33
Speaker 1: at the stuff, or you just thought that if you
29:35
Speaker 1: kept at it, no, it would work. Nothing's impossible. I
29:40
Speaker 1: didn't say it was impossible. Ask if it was scary, No,
29:43
Speaker 1: they're scared scary I'm only scared now. I just recently
29:47
Speaker 1: got scared because the more when you get in family, fear,
29:51
Speaker 1: fear starts showing up when there's other people involved, you know,
29:55
Speaker 1: but no, fear and being scared has never been okay,
30:00
Speaker 1: what fears show up now? Well, when you have a family,
30:03
Speaker 1: your feared of, fear of like, oh, I know only
30:06
Speaker 1: thing to happen to my family. I got to take
30:07
Speaker 1: care of them, you know, being a good mom. But
30:10
Speaker 1: in terms of in terms of your career, you didn't
30:12
Speaker 1: have that. No, So when you did your I think
30:15
Speaker 1: your first solo was in Flight? Was that right? Yes?
30:19
Speaker 1: Was that the way you wanted it? Did that turn out?
30:21
Speaker 1: I love that album. That album to me is honestly
30:26
Speaker 1: it's perfection. I love that album. It sounds like everything
30:31
Speaker 1: that was in my head. You know. I sat down
30:36
Speaker 1: and with the bottle of wine and my cigarettes and
30:39
Speaker 1: just sat at a chair just like this and basically
30:42
Speaker 1: saying like this, it's very ambitious, a lot of different
30:45
Speaker 1: kinds of arrangements. Yeah, well that's what was in That's
30:49
Speaker 1: the album I wanted to make. But four non blondes
30:52
Speaker 1: and the label didn't want that album, and I just said, well,
30:56
Speaker 1: I'm going to go. You guys can have that album.
30:58
Speaker 1: There was a second album that we were and it
31:01
Speaker 1: was filled with probably pop songs, but I didn't like it.
31:07
Speaker 1: I couldn't go, I couldn't support it. Did you start
31:11
Speaker 1: writing for other people and then start producing or producing
31:14
Speaker 1: then writing it came together? Because then I was so
31:18
Speaker 1: bummed out when in Flight the label just basically shelved
31:21
Speaker 1: that record. I was very disappointed. So I just said, okay,
31:26
Speaker 1: I'll go find another way into this little party. I
31:31
Speaker 1: was so fixated with vintage. Everything I did was, you know,
31:38
Speaker 1: on vintage gear, and I was kind of a snob.
31:44
Speaker 1: So I moved to La Left, San Francisco. I'm like,
31:48
Speaker 1: all right, I'm out of here. Came here, moved into
31:52
Speaker 1: this house and turned there's a room in there, and
31:56
Speaker 1: I turned that into my studio. And I called a
31:58
Speaker 1: friend and I said, what's all that stuff on the
32:01
Speaker 1: radio right now? Like, what are the what's that sound
32:04
Speaker 1: that I'm hearing? And then he said, oh, it's a
32:08
Speaker 1: Trident keyboard, MPCs. People are recording to D eighty eights
32:15
Speaker 1: now and and roll in expansion cards or programs. I'm
32:23
Speaker 1: like all right, So I went and bought all that
32:26
Speaker 1: set it up, moved all my vintage gear out of
32:30
Speaker 1: the way, you know, left up pres and stuff, plugged
32:34
Speaker 1: in all this shit, and now I just know everything.
32:37
Speaker 1: And now I know what I'm doing. I know how
32:39
Speaker 1: everything gets connected. And so I'm like, all right, let's
32:42
Speaker 1: see what this shit does. Okay, blah blah. I get
32:45
Speaker 1: on the NPC. It create a beat, and then I
32:48
Speaker 1: create some other stuff and oh, here's what are these
32:51
Speaker 1: weird little horns? Okay horns? Just kind of finding out
32:55
Speaker 1: what all this stuff does. This needs a wa wa.
32:59
Speaker 1: I mean, I grab my guitar, like on me ad
33:01
Speaker 1: this blah blah blah, grab a bullet microphone and I'm
33:04
Speaker 1: just like, I'm gonna think of every cliche I can
33:07
Speaker 1: think of coming up. So you better get this potty started.
33:13
Speaker 1: Get this poddy started on a Saturday, you know, and
33:16
Speaker 1: I just start singing this crazy song. And I mean
33:21
Speaker 1: it happened so quick, but it was just me dicking
33:24
Speaker 1: around trying to understand what this equipment did. And then
33:28
Speaker 1: a week later, who calls me, This girl Pink, She's
33:35
Speaker 1: like left this crazy message and I call her back
33:39
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I don't think you have the right
33:40
Speaker 1: Linda Perry. I just saw who you were, and I
33:44
Speaker 1: don't know anything about R and B and I'm not
33:47
Speaker 1: hip at all. And she's like, are you Lenna Perry
33:51
Speaker 1: that's saying what's up? And dear mister President. I'm like yeah,
33:54
Speaker 1: and she's like, you're the right Linda Perry. So we
33:56
Speaker 1: meet and did you know her stuff at all? No?
33:59
Speaker 1: Well from MTV. I saw it and I see blingling
34:03
Speaker 1: ching ching, come on, and that's why I told her
34:05
Speaker 1: I don't. It's not my world. So I meet her.
34:10
Speaker 1: We instantly connect. She seems like a little mini version
34:12
Speaker 1: of myself, you know, And I play her get the
34:16
Speaker 1: party started. I'm like, oddly, I just wrote this crazy
34:20
Speaker 1: song and I play it to her and she's like great,
34:25
Speaker 1: and then she plays it to La Reid and they're like,
34:28
Speaker 1: we got our first single. Those are the productions. So
34:33
Speaker 1: writing and producing came hand in hand, and then that's
34:37
Speaker 1: what started off. But you said you were just it
34:40
Speaker 1: was a song just of cliches. Do you like the song?
34:42
Speaker 1: I love it? Okay? To me, it's a it's totally fun.
34:46
Speaker 1: I love it for so many reasons. One, it's so
34:50
Speaker 1: not my style. Do you have written a song like
34:52
Speaker 1: that two. It has a lot of heart. You know
34:56
Speaker 1: that song, It's like it's crazy, but it's got a
34:58
Speaker 1: cool vibe and it's so bizarre. I mean, I have
35:03
Speaker 1: harpsichord and claws, and I got the craziest things. If
35:07
Speaker 1: you actually listened to the song and break it down,
35:09
Speaker 1: there's so much going on in there, but not you know,
35:12
Speaker 1: but I and then everything was live again, nothing was
35:16
Speaker 1: cut and pace. It was like I just played everything
35:18
Speaker 1: on the fly. So there was no punching in either.
35:23
Speaker 1: Like that was the beauty of this track. If I
35:25
Speaker 1: picked up the bass, I played the bass from start
35:27
Speaker 1: to and there was no I didn't punch in anything.
35:30
Speaker 1: I was just I didn't know this was going to
35:32
Speaker 1: be a recording. I would thought it was just going
35:35
Speaker 1: to be an experience, you know. And how much of
35:38
Speaker 1: that those original things you did in that room ended
35:41
Speaker 1: up in the final That was all of it? Really, Yeah,
35:44
Speaker 1: that was it. That was it. So everything her and
35:46
Speaker 1: I did was the final and they were just demos.
35:49
Speaker 1: So I pride myself on doing really great demos. And
35:52
Speaker 1: one of the great things I tell people, it's like
35:55
Speaker 1: it's very very important no matter where you are when
35:58
Speaker 1: you write a song and you're gonna to go demo it,
36:01
Speaker 1: make sure you're recording it great. Just take a moment
36:04
Speaker 1: because you're never going to get that back. You're never
36:07
Speaker 1: going to get that vocal back of writing a song
36:10
Speaker 1: and being in that moment right then and there. You
36:13
Speaker 1: can recreate it. You could try to get that back,
36:16
Speaker 1: but that moment when you write that song in all
36:18
Speaker 1: your heart and your energy is in it. Just make
36:21
Speaker 1: sure you record the vocal the best that you possibly can,
36:24
Speaker 1: because that vocal, chances are is going to be the
36:28
Speaker 1: master vocal. What was Pinkle like to work with? Did
36:32
Speaker 1: she understand that? Really? Great? You know, problem child, a
36:35
Speaker 1: little rebellious, but it was fun, like she needed me
36:39
Speaker 1: and I needed her, Like we entered each other's lives
36:42
Speaker 1: in a very interesting time. Like what did she need
36:45
Speaker 1: from you? She needed my guidance and my like I'm
36:48
Speaker 1: when I'm with artists, I'm very grounding. I ground people
36:53
Speaker 1: and give them. She needed to get out of what
36:56
Speaker 1: you know, she they were turning her into an R
36:59
Speaker 1: and B artist and she didn't want to do that
37:01
Speaker 1: and she wouldn't have gotten it out on her own.
37:04
Speaker 1: So when she and I met, I pulled her out.
37:09
Speaker 1: I asked her, can you bring me your CD collection?
37:14
Speaker 1: So she showed up one day with her big CDs collection,
37:17
Speaker 1: like two big catalog things whatever, And I just went
37:21
Speaker 1: through with Bruce Springsteen the time, Carol King, Aretha Franklin,
37:28
Speaker 1: Errol Smith, Errolsmith, Erolsmith. And what did that tell you? Well?
37:32
Speaker 1: I said, how are you doing the music that you're doing?
37:35
Speaker 1: You don't even have any of that in here. She's like,
37:40
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's where I started. You know. She
37:43
Speaker 1: started in a girl band that was being put together. Yeah,
37:48
Speaker 1: she was. They were putting her together and everybody was
37:51
Speaker 1: writing the songs, and so sitting with me, we actually
37:57
Speaker 1: it's like, well, let's just write whatever we're going to
37:59
Speaker 1: writ right, And there was this one song called Eventually.
38:03
Speaker 1: I said, do you trust me? And she's like, yeah,
38:06
Speaker 1: I think so. And I said I need you to
38:08
Speaker 1: just I'm going to play some chords and you're just
38:12
Speaker 1: going to open up your mouth and you're just going
38:15
Speaker 1: to start singing. And she like looked at me like huh.
38:18
Speaker 1: I go, She's like, how am I going to do that?
38:20
Speaker 1: I go, You're going to do it from your heart.
38:22
Speaker 1: You're just going to close your eyes and you're going
38:24
Speaker 1: to tell me how you feel right now, but you're
38:27
Speaker 1: gonna tell me on the microphone, and you're going to
38:30
Speaker 1: use words and you're going to sing it at the
38:32
Speaker 1: same time. And she was petrified. So we put headphones
38:37
Speaker 1: on and I just started playing these chords. I found
38:41
Speaker 1: these chords. I didn't even know the chords that we're
38:42
Speaker 1: going to be and I just found these beautiful chords,
38:46
Speaker 1: you know, and it's just instantly, You're just in this moment,
38:50
Speaker 1: you're just feeling this emotion because that's what chords are
38:52
Speaker 1: supposed to do, and she just opened her mouth and
38:57
Speaker 1: sang exactly what is on the record, Like all those
39:03
Speaker 1: words were made up. That whole take was improvised. If so,
39:09
Speaker 1: if you go back and listen to eventually, Okay, you're
39:13
Speaker 1: going to be extremely impressed. Kids, you not. The only
39:17
Speaker 1: thing we added was I started producing up the track
39:20
Speaker 1: and maybe dis some backgrounds, but that piano and that
39:25
Speaker 1: vocal was all ad libbed and it just went and
39:30
Speaker 1: I got it was so emotional. Obviously something happened. The
39:35
Speaker 1: trust and the channeling and just opening up and just
39:38
Speaker 1: going for it. That song really made me very aware
39:43
Speaker 1: of who she is as an individual too because of
39:47
Speaker 1: what she was talking about. The whole song is about
39:49
Speaker 1: people trying to have control over you. And did you
39:53
Speaker 1: know it? When you were playing it, we were thinking,
39:55
Speaker 1: this is it? This is the song I knew and
39:58
Speaker 1: I found the chords. Yeah, something magical was going to happen.
40:02
Speaker 1: So she was definitely was great about her and kind
40:06
Speaker 1: of everybody that I work with, And maybe if I
40:09
Speaker 1: can be as bold to say it's me that's making
40:13
Speaker 1: this happen, that all the experiences are extremely vulnerable and open,
40:20
Speaker 1: and I can tell you about this experience with pretty
40:23
Speaker 1: much every artist I've ever worked with. It's something that
40:27
Speaker 1: I feel is extremely important to happen. My job as
40:31
Speaker 1: a producer to make the artists feel safe and have
40:35
Speaker 1: them trust me. And because what we're trying to do
40:38
Speaker 1: is be creative. We're trying to do something different, We're
40:41
Speaker 1: trying to tell a story, and it's very important that
40:46
Speaker 1: whoever you're working with feel safe because otherwise you're not
40:52
Speaker 1: going to get that experience at all. You make it
40:55
Speaker 1: sound almost like therapy, it's very much therapy. It's I mean,
40:59
Speaker 1: there's crying, there's vulnerabilities, there's confessions, is that why you
41:06
Speaker 1: think so many of your artists I said earlier, they
41:10
Speaker 1: seem to be wanting to take a different direction when
41:12
Speaker 1: they work with you. Y is it they don't want
41:14
Speaker 1: to Is that part of Is that the result of
41:16
Speaker 1: the way you work? Do you think I choose who
41:21
Speaker 1: I work with? They don't choose me, but I choose
41:26
Speaker 1: because I have to understand that something something. I'm going
41:32
Speaker 1: to get something out of this, and it's not hits.
41:35
Speaker 1: I'm not looking for that. I prefer album tracks. I
41:39
Speaker 1: prefer albums. I don't like doing a song for somebody.
41:43
Speaker 1: I don't find any satisfaction in that whatsoever. I have
41:48
Speaker 1: to know that I'm going to be able to have
41:50
Speaker 1: this experience with somebody and it's going to be real
41:53
Speaker 1: and it's not going to be like, hey, can you
41:56
Speaker 1: write me get the party started? Or beautiful or whatever
42:00
Speaker 1: their thoughts are. I don't work with people like that.
42:04
Speaker 1: I want to look back at my career and be
42:08
Speaker 1: really proud of it. When we come back, Linda talks
42:13
Speaker 1: about Christina Aguilera and how she gave her the song Beautiful.
42:21
Speaker 1: We're back with more, Linda Perry, you mentioned beautiful. Can
42:24
Speaker 1: you tell me a bit about that song, because that
42:26
Speaker 1: really is You've written a lot of terrific songs. That
42:30
Speaker 1: is one of the great songs of all time. It's
42:38
Speaker 1: great because it's just an honest statement. Like I feel
42:41
Speaker 1: like that song really was the starting of all everybody
42:44
Speaker 1: getting vulnerable and making an honest statement, especially having someone
42:49
Speaker 1: like Christina Aguilera sing it. Did you write it for her? No,
42:54
Speaker 1: I wrote the song for me, and she just happened
42:58
Speaker 1: to be when I had finished writing it. She was
43:03
Speaker 1: who came in through the doors. Never was intended for anybody,
43:07
Speaker 1: and she asked me to sing it or play something.
43:12
Speaker 1: When she came here, my studio was here. It's full
43:16
Speaker 1: circle for me. I'm talking like fifteen years ago. Whatever
43:19
Speaker 1: it was. She, you know, I had my piano and
43:24
Speaker 1: she said, I'm nervous, and I wouldn't allow her posse
43:29
Speaker 1: to come in or management. So that's a thing that
43:33
Speaker 1: I have. I don't don't I don't need your friends
43:36
Speaker 1: that hang out and distract, and I don't need managers
43:39
Speaker 1: or labels to come in here and act like they
43:42
Speaker 1: know what they're doing. So all that stuff is just
43:45
Speaker 1: not allowed in here. So she came in and was nervous,
43:49
Speaker 1: and she didn't have her group of people, and she's like,
43:52
Speaker 1: can I love your voice? Do you think you could
43:54
Speaker 1: play something to break the ice? And I'm like, all right, sure.
43:57
Speaker 1: So I just happened. Beautiful was the new Fresh song
44:02
Speaker 1: and I play that to her and she just instantly
44:05
Speaker 1: was like, can you record that? I want it for
44:08
Speaker 1: my album. And I was in shock. I'm like, she's
44:11
Speaker 1: not a song for you. I don't feel beautiful. You
44:15
Speaker 1: are beautiful. So I was like, let me hear you
44:19
Speaker 1: sing it. So I had her come back like three
44:21
Speaker 1: days later, and again by herself. Well no, this time
44:26
Speaker 1: she asked if her friend, her friend, could come, and
44:29
Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, no problem. Your friend could come
44:32
Speaker 1: because he was driving her. I was like, okay, no problem.
44:35
Speaker 1: So we go in that room and I had laid
44:38
Speaker 1: down the piano I had given her the lyrics she
44:42
Speaker 1: had I sent. I sent her a demo to practice
44:45
Speaker 1: before she came. So I pushed record and literally, no kidding,
44:52
Speaker 1: she you know, don't look at me, you know. And
44:59
Speaker 1: as soon as I heard that, She's like telling her friend,
45:01
Speaker 1: don't look at me, Like that's where that came from.
45:04
Speaker 1: Oh he was in the room. Yeah, he was in
45:05
Speaker 1: the room, and she said, don't look at me. And
45:08
Speaker 1: I knew as soon as I heard that the song
45:10
Speaker 1: was hers. It showed it just expressed so much vulnerability,
45:14
Speaker 1: and I was like, Oh, she's insecure, just like me.
45:19
Speaker 1: You know, she doesn't think she's beautiful, like a beautiful
45:21
Speaker 1: person doesn't say something like that because the vulnerability in
45:24
Speaker 1: her voice. So I knew right then I was going
45:26
Speaker 1: to keep that that's the starting of the song and
45:31
Speaker 1: that she was definitely the right person for it, and
45:33
Speaker 1: that take is eighty percent the take, and I just
45:38
Speaker 1: went back and punched in some flubs that she did.
45:43
Speaker 1: She's such an acrobat with her voice. Did she want
45:46
Speaker 1: to keep going back at it to make it? Oh? Yeah.
45:48
Speaker 1: She begged me for seven months to re record the
45:51
Speaker 1: vocals and I said no. She's like, but I know
45:53
Speaker 1: it better. I'm like, exactly, that's what the problem is.
45:56
Speaker 1: So right before we finalized went into mix, she's again begging.
46:02
Speaker 1: We're at Conway Studios now and she's like, please let
46:05
Speaker 1: me just re sing the vocal. I'm so unhappy with it.
46:09
Speaker 1: It's and I said, I can't tell you. I'll give
46:11
Speaker 1: you a shot. So literally, you hear the beautiful, simple
46:18
Speaker 1: you know quartet, mind you, it's a quartet sixteen tracks
46:22
Speaker 1: on that song. Sixteen tracks, that's all that was used
46:26
Speaker 1: on that song. So you hear those quartet and then
46:30
Speaker 1: she comes in with every day Lafe is wonderful, and
46:38
Speaker 1: then I just pushed stop. She's all what, I'm like,
46:43
Speaker 1: you're already ruining the fucking song, you know, and she like,
46:47
Speaker 1: you're right, And then that was it. She she got it.
46:50
Speaker 1: She's like, I'm never gonna beat that vocal. I'm like,
46:51
Speaker 1: you know, you're not. Wow, So finally you know, I
46:57
Speaker 1: won I mean, it's a classic, it will forever be
47:00
Speaker 1: a classic song for hers. It's her most I mean,
47:03
Speaker 1: it's her top song. Yeah, and it introduced a vulnerable Christina.
47:10
Speaker 1: It introduced like, oh, maybe she isn't just what we
47:16
Speaker 1: think she is, Maybe she just isn't orange tan, and
47:20
Speaker 1: you know, a vocal acrobatic like. It brought an emotion,
47:26
Speaker 1: a relatability all of a sudden, she is relatable. Yeah,
47:30
Speaker 1: she was a prodigy, and prodigies often have trouble communicating,
47:34
Speaker 1: So that song single handedly changed the way everybody looked
47:39
Speaker 1: at her. Do you think as a producer and a
47:42
Speaker 1: songwriter you relate better to female artists, or do you
47:45
Speaker 1: think that that just is simply who you've worked with.
47:51
Speaker 1: I'm where I'm at because it's by design. Again, the
47:54
Speaker 1: universe is putting me in this position because obviously women
47:59
Speaker 1: need me in this role because there are none. I
48:04
Speaker 1: get a lot of times women being so relieved to
48:08
Speaker 1: be working with a woman because they've never done that
48:11
Speaker 1: before on the songwriting and production side. But I'm also tough,
48:18
Speaker 1: so I can not fall into the we're not gonna
48:24
Speaker 1: be bff and talk about shopping. I'm a strong woman
48:31
Speaker 1: that is very focused on what it is that I
48:35
Speaker 1: want to convey, and I'm quick at picking up people's
48:39
Speaker 1: energy and what's going on with them. I feel like
48:43
Speaker 1: it's awesome that somebody has me to come to because
48:49
Speaker 1: I'm safer to be vulnerable. I mean, let's just face it.
48:54
Speaker 1: It's not everywhere. And I'm not saying this about every guy,
48:57
Speaker 1: but guys can be dicks in the studio. There's ego,
49:01
Speaker 1: there's this whole I mean, I experienced it. Can't you
49:03
Speaker 1: just be a singer? That happens still today? There's sexual
49:07
Speaker 1: harassment there. Can I just come into this fucking studio
49:12
Speaker 1: and just not be hit on you know what I mean,
49:16
Speaker 1: is that stuff you had to put up with me? No? God, No,
49:20
Speaker 1: people don't want to hit on me. I'm talking about
49:23
Speaker 1: all the stories that I get from these women. It's
49:26
Speaker 1: like it's a constant thing. This is happening fifteen years ago,
49:29
Speaker 1: fifty years ago, and last week. Yeah, so when you
49:33
Speaker 1: come work with me, you know, that's just not going
49:35
Speaker 1: to happen. You're can come in and we're working. We're
49:39
Speaker 1: going to get down and dirty, you know, with the
49:42
Speaker 1: music and creating. It's safer. And then I have really
49:47
Speaker 1: great information. And again, there's a lot of women that
49:50
Speaker 1: like that strong male energy. I kind of have that.
49:54
Speaker 1: So it's like you're getting the best of both worlds
49:56
Speaker 1: in a sense, because I can be a dick if
49:58
Speaker 1: you want me to. I'm sure you saw a piece
50:02
Speaker 1: of that for me. And I mean, I'm not all
50:07
Speaker 1: I'm not a soft person, but I can be. I'm
50:11
Speaker 1: very genuine and I'm very real and I'm very honest.
50:14
Speaker 1: Would the music business be better if there were more people,
50:18
Speaker 1: if they were more female producers, more female songwriters. I
50:23
Speaker 1: don't fucking know, man, I have no idea. I don't
50:28
Speaker 1: think women. I'm only speaking about myself, and I don't
50:31
Speaker 1: relate to either or to be quite honest, I'm Linda Perry.
50:36
Speaker 1: I've always been Linda Perry, and however you want to
50:41
Speaker 1: call that, I don't really care. But I just do
50:44
Speaker 1: what I do. And I think the world would be
50:47
Speaker 1: better and the music business would be better if people
50:50
Speaker 1: did what they really truly wanted to do and not
50:54
Speaker 1: focus on what it's going to impress people, or how
50:58
Speaker 1: many records they can sell or how many followers they
51:01
Speaker 1: can gain. If we just did things from a completely
51:05
Speaker 1: different intention that had to benefit other people. How can
51:10
Speaker 1: I write a song today that's going to benefit somebody?
51:13
Speaker 1: What can I do today that's going to help somebody?
51:17
Speaker 1: How can I help the community? If we had that,
51:22
Speaker 1: then we would know that in order to help the
51:25
Speaker 1: music community and the songwriters, all the fame and all
51:28
Speaker 1: those things, we need to start having some songwriters that
51:32
Speaker 1: are writing some fucking valid songs that's going to boost
51:35
Speaker 1: up the community. We're going to have to kind of
51:39
Speaker 1: take some risks here and decide maybe, just maybe, what
51:45
Speaker 1: if everybody's decided to stop streaming. What if everybody decided,
51:49
Speaker 1: you know what, fuck this my next big record? What
51:52
Speaker 1: if Adele, Miley, Cyrus, Taylor Swift and whoever, Sean Mendez
51:58
Speaker 1: all decided that they're next album was going to be
52:01
Speaker 1: on vinyl and only on vinyl, and they were going
52:04
Speaker 1: to sell it at mom pastores across the world and
52:08
Speaker 1: targets and wherever else, and they were not going to
52:11
Speaker 1: release a song on the DSPs. You know what that
52:16
Speaker 1: would do. It would fuck some shit up, man. But
52:19
Speaker 1: you know what, it won't happen because they'd be afraid
52:22
Speaker 1: to lose their fan base. Their labels won't let them
52:25
Speaker 1: do it because they're afraid to lose money. Everybody is
52:28
Speaker 1: operating on fear of losing something, and we can't. We
52:33
Speaker 1: can't live that way. We can't have a successful business
52:37
Speaker 1: when we're all afraid to actually expand the business and
52:41
Speaker 1: grow it. Do you think people it wouldn't make people
52:45
Speaker 1: listen to the music more well. Being the micromanager and
52:50
Speaker 1: the producer I am, I would make sure that somehow
52:54
Speaker 1: I would have hands on it, that it'd have to
52:56
Speaker 1: go through my ears first, because the first and foremost
52:59
Speaker 1: most important thing she got to make an album that
53:01
Speaker 1: is actually good. You can't just put two good songs
53:05
Speaker 1: on and then a bunch of filler, like I'm talking
53:10
Speaker 1: about some old school shit. Let's get back to the
53:13
Speaker 1: album where it was eleven ten eleven songs and they
53:17
Speaker 1: were great. There was obvious hits, and there's great, great
53:21
Speaker 1: album tracks that supported those hits, because that's what we're
53:24
Speaker 1: missing right now. You're not forced to buy an album. No,
53:28
Speaker 1: you could just buy the single. You put together your
53:31
Speaker 1: own compilations. No one's listening to albums, and then but
53:35
Speaker 1: then everybody says, well, albums don't sell. But then Adele
53:38
Speaker 1: will put out an album and it like breaks every
53:40
Speaker 1: record out there. Yeah, why is that? Hum Are think
53:45
Speaker 1: good albums? Huh? Adele's record, Well, this last one to
53:49
Speaker 1: me wasn't as good as the last one. But yeah,
53:50
Speaker 1: I think she makes great records. And she's not playing
53:54
Speaker 1: the same game either. You don't see Adele splashed all
53:57
Speaker 1: over the place. She's just doing her thing and when
54:01
Speaker 1: it shows up, it's quality, it's classy, and it's you
54:05
Speaker 1: own it. But everybody's afraid, oh I don't want to
54:09
Speaker 1: be irrelevant, you know, or oh I gotta have like
54:14
Speaker 1: record companies? Are you got to have a single out
54:16
Speaker 1: every week? Why? Because you don't want to work one.
54:22
Speaker 1: We're just putting it out there until it hits, so
54:25
Speaker 1: everybody else does all the work for us. Labels aren't
54:28
Speaker 1: even a label anymore. That's why they're going down. And
54:30
Speaker 1: managers don't even manage. Is this why, I mean you've
54:33
Speaker 1: started your own publishing. Yeah, that's why we are here.
54:36
Speaker 1: Is really important to me. We are here as h
54:39
Speaker 1: Ear and my partner Carry Brown. We manage, we're a
54:43
Speaker 1: label and we're a publishing company and now apparently we
54:46
Speaker 1: run events as well too. But we are great, like
54:50
Speaker 1: I'm a great manager, carries a great manager because we're
54:53
Speaker 1: in it. We are with our artists. Were what is
54:56
Speaker 1: your dream? Oh god, that sounds so complicated. Okay, we're
55:00
Speaker 1: gonna make it happen, you know. It's like there's nothing
55:02
Speaker 1: impossible and building careers. We have an artist named Dorothy.
55:06
Speaker 1: She's on rock Nation. Now. If it were up to
55:09
Speaker 1: rock Nation, her album would be done. She'd have all
55:11
Speaker 1: her songs singled out in the first month, you know,
55:14
Speaker 1: and it would be like we're like, uh uh, that's
55:16
Speaker 1: not gonna happen. We're on two years. Her album has
55:19
Speaker 1: been out and we're just about to go into her
55:20
Speaker 1: third single, Like that's unheard of. And she started two
55:26
Speaker 1: years ago playing to three hundred people, and now she's
55:30
Speaker 1: been opening for Greta Van Fleet, she's playing Woodstock, she's
55:34
Speaker 1: selling out her own, you know, fifteen hundred to three
55:36
Speaker 1: thousand over the course of two years. Because we just
55:40
Speaker 1: kept looping her around. I was calling radio stations myself.
55:44
Speaker 1: They're like, holy fuck, why is Linda Perry calling me?
55:48
Speaker 1: Because Dorothy's I manage Dorothy. They're like, holy shit, this
55:52
Speaker 1: is so cool, you know whatever, and well, what do
55:55
Speaker 1: you need? I'm like, I need you to play Dorothy
55:58
Speaker 1: just once. It's all asking player once. If you don't
56:02
Speaker 1: like it, great, the listeners don't like it, fine, but
56:05
Speaker 1: if they do, then I want you to play her
56:07
Speaker 1: ten times and then heavy rotation. And that's kind of
56:11
Speaker 1: where we're at. And so we have artists of all
56:13
Speaker 1: different calibers. And we have an artist named Willa that's fourteen.
56:17
Speaker 1: I found her when she's twelve. I've been developing and
56:19
Speaker 1: just nurturing her and making sure she's okay. And she's
56:23
Speaker 1: incredibly prolific and extremely talented kid. And she came to
56:27
Speaker 1: me finally and just said I'm ready, I like ready
56:29
Speaker 1: for what She's like I want you to put me
56:31
Speaker 1: out there, and I'm like, like my little baby, you know,
56:35
Speaker 1: I'm afraid. But then I wasn't afraid because we're her
56:38
Speaker 1: label and we're her manager. Oh I'm not afraid. We
56:41
Speaker 1: got this. Yeah, if it was somebody else, I would
56:44
Speaker 1: be afraid. That's a lot of work, though. You don't
56:47
Speaker 1: want to just keep producing and writing, you want to
56:49
Speaker 1: do all that, Like, that's a busy life. I'm a
56:52
Speaker 1: very busy person. But do do you work well under
56:56
Speaker 1: those circumstances? Everything's kind fortunately I do. I'm really good
57:00
Speaker 1: under stress. And it brings unhappiness at times, you know,
57:05
Speaker 1: because you're just like constantly working. There's never a break.
57:10
Speaker 1: But it helps me grow, you know, as a human being,
57:13
Speaker 1: because it's just like it's so challenging to operate with
57:17
Speaker 1: no sleep and no rest and constant stress. You really
57:22
Speaker 1: are challenged with who you are as a person and
57:24
Speaker 1: how you are to other people. And I have a
57:27
Speaker 1: very short temper. But I'm great. I really do think
57:31
Speaker 1: I'm a really good human being. Do I have a
57:34
Speaker 1: lot of work? Yeah, I have a lot of work
57:36
Speaker 1: to do on myself, and I have a lot to
57:39
Speaker 1: offer you him her, everyone because I'm vulnerable and I'm honest,
57:47
Speaker 1: and I'm not afraid to look bad. I'm not afraid
57:50
Speaker 1: to look good. I'm not afraid to be ugly or pretty,
57:54
Speaker 1: and i feel like I'm really happy with how I'm
57:59
Speaker 1: turning out. As a to hear more about Linda Perry,
58:09
Speaker 1: including her full collaboration with Dolly Parton and a playlist
58:12
Speaker 1: of her greatest hits, visit Broken Record podcast dot com.
58:17
Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced by Justin Richmond and Jason Gambrel,
58:21
Speaker 1: with help from Neil LaBelle, Jacob Smith, Julia Barton, and
58:25
Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg. Special thanks to my co hosts Rick Rubin
58:29
Speaker 1: and Malcolm Gladwell. Our Broken Record theme music is by
58:34
Speaker 1: the hip hop phenom Kenny Beats. Check out his new
58:37
Speaker 1: album Anger Management with rapper Rico Nasty. Wherever you get
58:42
Speaker 1: your music for Pushkin Industries, I'm Bruce Heaven