Latest / Motherhood Uncut / When our kids are in pain | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 4

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When our kids are in pain | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 4 · Motherhood Uncut

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Motherhood Uncut Podcast.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: Deb Rubin and I, Kate Kripke, started this podcast so that we could bring to the table all things that no one wants to talk about in motherhood.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: Together, both psychotherapists and mothers of teenage daughters, we spent a lot of time, just the two of us, talking about all the stuff that actually shows up behind the scenes in motherhood.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: And we decided it was time that we all joined this conversation together.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: So if you are a mom feeling alone, if you're a mom feeling like you could use more information, if you're a mom looking to laugh about the things that are so ridiculous about this job, and quite frankly, if you're a mom needing to cry about the things that are more vulnerable and tenuous and heartbreaking, we've got you.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Pull up a chair, put in your earbuds, grab a cup of coffee, grab a glass of wine, whatever you need, sit down and mother with us.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: Our conversations are gonna be filled with laughter, probably some tears, hopefully some eye-opening insights.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: And between our conversations and the folks that we interview to help us learn a little bit more and grow a little bit more together, we're gonna create a system of mothering that helps us all feel a little bit less alone.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: Let us know what you think.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: We've got you.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Come mother with us.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: This week Kate and I had another opportunity to have a conversation just with each other about pain.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: That's really the topic.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: It's about what we do as parents when our kids are in pain.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: We break down different kinds of pain, how we manage it, how we untangle from our kids' pain so that we can actually hold space for them to learn how to be resilient.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: It's really just kind of the basics of being alive and learning how to sit and work with suffering.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, we had a really good time talking about it.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoy it as well.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: And as always, thanks for listening.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Hey listeners, it's Kate.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: So I have a challenge for you, and I'm wondering if any of you listeners are feeling brave and also interested in receiving a little bit of free one-on-one coaching from me.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm looking for one or two of you who might want to jump onto an Instagram live with me.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: Come on with some challenge that you're having with respect to your emotional and mental well-being in the face of mothering your kids.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: So a question might be, gosh, I'm really struggling with how to stay patient with my toddler.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: The question might be, gosh, I'm feeling really sort of purposeless and I want to find some purpose in my life as a mom.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: The question might be, I'm having a really hard time taking care of myself, even though I know that I need to be doing more of that.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: Some sort of a question that you're struggling with, that you're looking for some guidance.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: I would love to offer you a half an hour of my time on Instagram live.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: So if this is you, and I know it's asking you to be brave, but if this is you, I want you to email me, Kate at KateKripke.com.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: The link for that email is in the show notes, and uh let's get you the support you need.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: As many of you know by now, I have a huge passion for self-discovery and growth.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: I just adore helping people find their way back to their intuition and increasing their confidence, especially when it comes to connection.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm learning and relearning all the time that when we expand our connection with ourselves, we deeply learn how to connect with our children.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: So, my groups, the Mother Daughter Journey, that is what they're all about.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: We're learning how to stay steady and how to help out help our girls feel steady when they are going through such a turbulent transition of adolescence.
3:56
SPEAKER_02: I'll be launching a bunch of new stuff in the fall.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: So if you're not on my newsletter yet, you can do so at motherdaughterjourney.co.
4:03
SPEAKER_02: Sign up there and you'll stay informed and just know what's going on in my world.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: I cannot wait to work with you.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: And cheers to being a mom, being human, being messy.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: Have a great summer.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Dad.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Good morning, podcast morning.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: Good morning, Kate.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: We have like a sort of um, we have sort of an edgy topic today.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: It's edgy and it's and it's a theme that is just everywhere, right?
4:29
SPEAKER_02: Everywhere.
4:31
SPEAKER_02: So that theme is what do we do when our kids are really in pain, emotional pain?
4:40
SPEAKER_02: What do we do when they don't get on the team they want to be on, when they're going through a breakup, when they're left out, when I mean these things that every parent knows are like the it's like the regular flow of life.
4:56
SPEAKER_02: And it's so unbelievably painful.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: So painful.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: I think where we can start and where I want to make sure that we're being really clear is understanding the ways in which pain that's related to just human development, right?
5:16
SPEAKER_00: Like all that unavoidable shit that even as a grown-ups we still deal with, you know, the not being invited to the dinner party when all of our other friends are invited, or the like applying for the job and not getting the job, you know, that stuff, right?
5:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: Life.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: Life, the conflict in relationships, sort of the difference between that kind of pain and the and the kind of pain that actually is dangerous.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: And we can define that together.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: But one is sort of just the life, the growing through life, the the kind of pain that leads us to build resilience.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
5:51
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I remember the thing that used to keep me up at night in my like early mothering days is I would get really far away from the present moment and think about the heartbreaks that were gonna, regardless if it was romantic or not.
6:05
SPEAKER_02: But like just and thinking about how much heartbreak I have endured through my life and how I'm okay.
6:12
SPEAKER_02: But like that, and so that now I'm okay.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: That is my adult perspective brain.
6:18
SPEAKER_02: But knowing, like, and this is so obvious, but just knowing the human experience is so, oh my God, it's kind of amazing what we humans tolerate.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, we have to remember that we're built to be resilient, and so are our kids, right?
6:35
SPEAKER_00: And so, and of course, I think it's worth at the top of this podcast, identifying the the kind of different levels of significance of pain across the planet, right?
6:48
SPEAKER_00: That that my daughter's pain around a breakup or not making a team, or my pain around getting turned down for some professional endeavor that I want, right?
7:01
SPEAKER_00: It not, we don't want to compare that's that sort of, yeah, but that's not real pain because there's pain in countries where mothers can't feed their children, right?
7:10
SPEAKER_00: The truth is we wear pain in our bodies the same way.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: We feel it all the same way.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's worth just at the top of this podcast, just just paying tribute to the different depths and how important perspective is.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I mean, I think what you're talking about is different levels of suffering and different levels of stress, you know, and there's like real stress that comes from a place of survival and danger, abuse, you know, neglect, hunger.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, war.
7:50
SPEAKER_02: It's like the the world is is going through crazy levels of pain.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's sort of why we want to in the beginning differentiate between the pain that comes with a literal dangerous situation alongside the pain that comes with like our heart hurting.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: Yes, but we're not in threat of survival of some sort.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: I remember a conversation I had with someone recently where we were talking about whether or not our job as a mother, and there are so many different opinions around this, there's no one right answer, but whether or not our jobs as a mother is to do whatever we can to make sure that our children are never in situations where, for example, this particular conversation was around where they're having their heart broken.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: And that sort of question about is heartbreak dangerous?
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Or is heartbreak learning?
8:59
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: And the other question that I sort of put out there along with this is like, how, you know, if we asked any mother listening, any mother on the planet, what do you want for your child?
9:10
SPEAKER_00: Their answer would be what?
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Happiness.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: Happiness, but also I want her to be resilient or him, I want him to be brave, right?
9:18
SPEAKER_00: We don't get resilience and bravery without pain.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Right?
9:24
SPEAKER_00: We we have to allow for all of it or shelter our kids so that they never feel any of it, and then they don't develop those muscles.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: And that's a tricky realization to come to in motherhood.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: I think it is um, it always comes back to how do we respond, right?
9:42
SPEAKER_02: Because we can go on and on about all the different things.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: And they're actually, I think one one thing we've explored a lot together is, you know, the strength, like you're saying, in resiliency when when kids are dealt with situations that are where the conditions are not perfect, right?
10:01
SPEAKER_02: And that and school is designed for that, it's designed to put kids in a stressful state where this where they're out of their comfort zone, but they're in this learning state.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: And then when to notice when it slips into overwhelm and anxiety.
10:15
SPEAKER_02: That's another conversation, right?
10:17
SPEAKER_02: But I think that what we're talking about is how to sit with discomfort within ourselves in order to help them sit with it within themselves.
10:28
SPEAKER_02: Right.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: I think it's inevitable.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: What we do with it is the question we're discussing.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: But it's inevitable that if our kid comes to us struggling in some way, right?
10:39
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes danger struggle.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: Not dangerous, but social struggle or academic struggle or you know, deep disappointment around something, right?
10:50
SPEAKER_00: When our kid comes to us with that, it's really easy for me, I'm sure for all of us, to um react to the inevitable anxiety I'm going to feel in my body when my kid comes to me with that, right?
11:08
SPEAKER_00: So the question is not how do we not feel anxious or uncomfortable when our kid comes to us in some state of pain?
11:17
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: But the question is how do I take care of myself in that moment so that I don't answer and react from that place of anxiety?
11:31
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: That I can allow for that pain, I can soften around that pain, I can make space and um connect.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, we had a previous episode around this with my kiddo in that place of pain to allow for the you know solution to come that's more intentional and more empowering and more based on regulation versus frenetic and kind of disorienting and reactive.
12:06
SPEAKER_02: Right.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: And I'll also just add that there's so many moments where there is no solution.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: And they don't even want a solution, you know.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is one you've heard me say it a million times.
12:17
SPEAKER_02: One of my favorite lines is like, Do you want to vent or do you want a problem solve?
12:22
SPEAKER_02: And what did your dad say?
12:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, my dad said my 86-year-old father.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: If you're listening, dad, kudos to you.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: My 86-year-old father said to me, I came to him, actually, I came to him in some emotional pain, nothing dangerous, but I was like struggling with something.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: And I I came to him with it, and he um was a lawyer in his prime and can do this thing where he shows up as a lawyer and he started sort of debating me with why I was feeling what I was feeling.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Dad, I'm gonna stop this conversation.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: This isn't feeling good.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: Let's change the subject.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: And my dad, my 86-year-old dad, says, Okay, hang on a second.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: And I like watched him take a breath.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: And then he's like, Okay, let me try something.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to be hugged, heard, or helped?
13:15
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, holy fuck.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: I really it's never too late.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: It's never too late.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: Hugged, heard, or helped.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: That is like really good, right?
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Because what I I didn't need my dad, I actually my answer was heard.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: I didn't need my dad to fix my pain in that moment.
13:38
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I just was like venting, yes, right.
13:40
SPEAKER_02: And most of the time our kids do, and this kind of goes back to our kids do what they just want to vent.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, a lot.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: There's definitely moments, I you know, I speak from my own experience where after they're done venting, and I'll say, Do you want to work this, you know, workshop this or problem solve this or whatever?
13:57
SPEAKER_02: And then, or do you want my advice?
13:59
SPEAKER_02: And then they're like, Yeah, sometimes.
14:02
SPEAKER_02: But so often they just are like, I just want to spill, you know, I want to just get it out of my system.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: And so this goes back to the conversation you and I have so many times, but it's never too many times to start to recognize when we get tangled up in their swirl of no perspective, of catastrophic thinking, and of intense overwhelm.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes, you know, and I can give you an example from this morning.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: I mean, one of my kids was on her moon cycle.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: She was overwhelmed with her work schedule.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: This is a new thing she's learning how to manage time management.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: And she was, and she was sleep deprived, okay, and hadn't eaten breakfast yet.
14:46
SPEAKER_02: So, right, all those like, and she got really activated.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: And I felt myself like it was like if she was this swirly scribble mess sitting across the counter, and I was like on the other side sipping my tea and like Zen style, all of a sudden I like jumped into the swirly scribble.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: And I was in it with her, and I felt myself like I felt it so deep in my body.
15:09
SPEAKER_02: And I do this terrible thing when I get nervous, I like laugh a little bit.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: Wait, no, it's so bad.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: I can't control it.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Okay, but your laugh is sort of a nervous system regulator.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Listeners, you would agree, right?
15:22
SPEAKER_00: We all need a little dead laugh, Deb laugh in our life.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, darling.
15:27
SPEAKER_02: I just was, but it's like it's not like my release laugh.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: It's like a weird, awkward laugh, and I can't stop it.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: Like it's so bad.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm really working on that.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: Happened to us in a yoga class.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, so anyway, but I think that I like I could vision, I could see, I was almost hovering above myself, and I saw I saw that I was lacking perspective in that moment.
15:48
SPEAKER_02: And I luckily had the practice inside me to observe myself that I could untangle.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: And the it all happened kind of within five minutes, and then I went back to my seat, you know, energetically and gave space and just got curious and kind of and I and in that moment I was able to then lend perspective because she didn't have any.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: But honestly, in my mind, I wanted to be like, your life is fucking good.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: Like we have nothing to be overwhelmed about.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I went there in my mind, I did not say it, but and that's a tricky one because I do struggle with wanting them to have more grit sometimes and more tolerance, and then this deep knowing that psychologically, when someone's in it, the best thing that helps them is to be held and reflected in that in it.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm also just, you know, I don't know if this was happening for you in the moment or not, but I think this happens for us so often is in some part her quote unquote pain around this thing that felt in the moment to you to be insignificant compared to like the freaking good she has in her life, right?
17:05
SPEAKER_00: Your desire, that impulse to say, look at all the good in your life, is in some ways wanting her to not be in her pain.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's the other thing that happens is that we we forget that each of our pain is our pain to own.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: That I don't get to decide what's painful for you or my daughter or my neighbor or my friend across the country, right?
17:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Every person gets to decide in their own body what feels painful or not.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's part of it.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, quite frankly, my life is easier when my kids are not in emotional pain.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: It's easier.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: So if I'm feeling like that's a really actually I've never connected this, but in those moments where I want to eye roll or I want to be like buck up, or I want to be like just find the good in this moment, are probably the moments that I am more depleted.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: Because I don't have the bandwidth inside of me to make room for my own discomfort that's gonna inevitably come with theirs.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: That's it's just easier for me if they're easy.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually gonna share something here, which I think is a really important thing to articulate because part of what you and I want to do so much in these podcast episodes is make sure that our listeners understand that you and I are no different.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: That like, don't put us up on a pedestal as getting it right all the time because we are in it the way our listeners are.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: So every day.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: I happen to be in a situation with my older kiddo, which, and this is very um, you know, this is like if I step away, I'm like, right, this is teenager life, right?
18:40
SPEAKER_00: But I happen to be in a situation with my overkid older kiddo where she has had a series of stressful events, one after another, right?
18:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think what's happening for her is that her her internal emotional pain has exceeded her coping strategies that she knows how to manage pain, right?
19:02
SPEAKER_00: And if we separate each thing on its own, right, the feeling makes sense.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: There's no problem, right?
19:08
SPEAKER_00: What I realized recently, though, was that I have unintentionally projected this image onto my daughter as being easy and even and unemotional.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: If I think back, so she's now 16, and I think there to be fair, there is a quality of temperament in her that is steady, right?
19:35
SPEAKER_00: But it was I had postpartum anxiety when she was born.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: She was a quote unquote easy baby.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: She never really cried, she was a quote unquote easy toddler, she never really pushed back.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: She's been a quote unquote easy adolescent.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: There's no door slamming.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: And if I really step back and think about it, it's like my unconscious need for her to not be in pain serves me.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: And I realized the other day that the a part of what I believe is probably happening for her is that she's feeling all of this normal pain underneath, but has never really been given the permission, the energetic permission.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: I use all I say all the right words, by the way, but the energetic permission from me for her to be emotionally messy.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: Right?
20:28
SPEAKER_00: So she doesn't know what to do with it.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: So it comes out in destructive ways.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
20:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: And so I think this is I'm bringing this up now because it's a really good example of how really to me, the learning to allow, literally, allow for our children's emotional pain isn't just saying the right words.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: It's not even just knowing intellectually what's good for them.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: It's about energetically buying into that idea and making space for it so that we can learn how to like in those moments of emotional pain when they come to us, when they're babies, this might be emotional pain like my baby's crying, I don't know why.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: Right.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: It might be my emotional pain, like separation anxiety with a baby.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: It might be emotional pain around body training.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: It might be, you know, around that kid stole my toy.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: It might be dropping off at school for the first time.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: And we see our kids' emotional pain as they get older, they get bigger, right?
21:33
SPEAKER_00: Someone not sitting with them at lunch or not being invited to a birthday party or failing a test or not getting on a team, as you said, or not getting into school that you want, or breakups, right?
21:42
SPEAKER_00: We little people, little quote unquote problems, big people, big problems, right?
21:49
SPEAKER_00: But I guess a question maybe I'd love to hear your take on is how do we energetically Inside of us buy into this idea that their pain is safe and okay.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: So that we're not just saying it's okay to feel sad about that, and then secretly, unconsciously hoping to God they don't feel sad about that because they're gonna feel that.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: But we really in our bodies like that.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: We soften like what is your take on that?
22:30
SPEAKER_00: That's a major question.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: I just ran with that story.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so many.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: But thank you for sharing that because I think it's actually it's such an amazing blind spot to recognize that we all have.
22:42
SPEAKER_02: In fact, when you were speaking, I remembered I used to have an attachment to Sage, my older daughter, being tough.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
22:53
SPEAKER_02: I remember if she fell down, I was like, don't worry, she's tough.
22:56
SPEAKER_02: And I and I said it like a lot.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: And I think because she was very underweight and just small.
23:00
SPEAKER_02: And and and and I someone once reflected to me, like, wow, you're really like into her being tough.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oof, and it stung when she said it.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: And it's like I mean, we all have a version of that, right?
23:14
SPEAKER_00: I I was talking to a client yesterday who and I was sharing some of this because I really I think the messaging is just like my 86-year-old father, it's never too late to recognize our blind spots, and it's all a practice.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: And she said, she gave an example about oh, her example was I thought it was being helpful for my kids when I um celebrated their athleticism or their artistic ability.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: But unconsciously, there can be a way and we're like, well, he's the artist and he's the athlete.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:48
SPEAKER_02: We put kids in their roles.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think, okay, so one thing I realized that I had a deep identity with being tough.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: I had when you were a child, I had severe childhood asthma.
24:00
SPEAKER_02: That was very much given the messaging of like, you're not gonna let your asthma define you, you know, and like being strong and tough was was validated in my family system, which is not a negative.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: It served me in many ways.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: But I think to your point, when anything, when we start to have an identity with something, then we kind of hold on to that and then unconsciously project it onto our kids.
24:23
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: So and then, but it goes to your interesting, yeah.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: Just because I was the easy kid growing up, exactly.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: And you probably got love and and you know, acceptance for being that on something.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I'm still the easy kid, quite frankly.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: So, so I mean, we're going off tangent a little bit, so I just want to tie the thread in that I think when our children, and I don't mean to interrupt, so we'll come back, but when I think when our children have a need to break out of that mold, they may feel some emotional pain.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: When they're bumping up against that edge of how they are quote unquote supposed to be in the world.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
25:04
SPEAKER_02: It makes so much sense, but this is the ultimate, like uh is that someone's this is the ultimate why it is inevitable that our kids are gonna end up in therapy sometime.
25:22
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: Because it's like it's a relate, it's it's like it doesn't matter.
25:27
SPEAKER_02: I mean, yes, we we're trying to parent consciously, we're trying to be self-reflective and own our stuff in order to let our kids bloom and have these emerging sense of selves that is unique to who they are and how they came in the world.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: That is like the ultimate goal.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: And and no matter what, we're human and we're in deep relationship.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: Who else do you spend this much time with?
25:50
SPEAKER_02: Who else are you this connected to?
25:51
SPEAKER_02: You're you know, your family.
25:53
SPEAKER_02: And this is why family is always complex.
25:55
SPEAKER_02: So I say that because no matter what, our stories are somehow going to get projected onto them and can get in the way of them, their stories and how they are playing out their karma, you know, really what they came into the world with.
26:12
SPEAKER_02: I can't remember your question.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: I don't know because we're going, this is what we do.
26:15
SPEAKER_02: We ban we're really tangential today.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being patient.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that the question matters as much as just the sort of the, you know, I if I think about this, the the question I think that we're not going to answer specifically, but we're sort of discussing is well, A, I actually I'm gonna add a couple of questions for us to answer.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: Number one, how do we know when our kid is in pain?
26:40
SPEAKER_00: I'd like us to answer that question.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: How might we know when our kid is in emotional pain?
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Number two, when our kid is in emotional pain, what comes up for us?
26:49
SPEAKER_00: That's the big one.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: And what do we tend to do habitually?
26:56
SPEAKER_00: And what can we do more of that might be more helpful?
27:00
SPEAKER_00: And the question, and then my story just asked another question, which is in what part are we unintentionally playing a part in our children's pain?
27:10
SPEAKER_00: Which might be a whole other episode in itself.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: I actually think we start with that question only because I think that is the journey of self-awareness.
27:20
SPEAKER_02: And so it's like it's really playing within the moment when something hooks you, you know, like I might be less hooked with my kid not doing well at a sport and more hooked when they um, you know, excluded someone else.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: Right.
27:39
SPEAKER_02: And so, and that is my story, you know, of like how I am.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: So I think we pay attention to what are the hooks, and then we tenderly sit with that, you know.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: That is why this this journey of motherhood is like it's always about self-awareness and self-reflection.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: So I think that's then I say tenderly because it's like, huh, and there's a quiet moment to be like, what just happened there?
28:02
SPEAKER_02: Or when there's a good friend to reflect with, like, you know, I got so hooked there, like, what is getting hooked?
28:09
SPEAKER_02: What part of me is getting hooked, you know, and how to like have a relationship and compassion for that part of you.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes, given that, we may assume our kid is in pain when it's our pain.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: If my kid doesn't get invited to a birthday party, or if my kid doesn't make a sports team and being included was a feeling unincluded was such a pain point for me as a child, I might assume that that's a moment of pain for my kid.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: When my kid might be like, I don't actually really care about soccer.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: I'm doing it for you.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: You know, the other piece is, and we've talked about this before, but like to have a big wave and even days of disappointment of not getting something they want is actually a sign of mental health.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: Right.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: That is an appropriate response.
29:06
SPEAKER_02: So I think your first question was how do we know when our kid is in pain?
29:11
SPEAKER_02: You know, and well, some kids are going to be really verbal about it, some kids are gonna be really internal.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: Both are valid.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: I really, really want to emphasize that.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: It can feel scary for us when it's more internal because we don't know the story.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: And then when we don't know any story, we make up stories.
29:28
SPEAKER_02: But I think that when we are attuned to our kids and their mood and emotion, that feeling of attunement will override any need for understanding context.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: One of the best ways of explaining mental health that I think you were just referring to, we just went to a talk and my brain is spacing who who's talking.
29:52
SPEAKER_02: Lisa Damore.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: Lisa Damore, thank you.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: She did this, she said she said this so beautifully in her talk.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: She said, and I and I use this a lot in my work, I know you do too.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: The definition of mental health, what mental health is, is when our emotional response to something matches the environmental something, right?
30:10
SPEAKER_00: So mental health might look like tears and sadness when I'm being left out.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: It might look like anger when someone does something unfair, right?
30:22
SPEAKER_00: It might look like anxiety when our kid has something coming up that's um that they've never done before, right?
30:29
SPEAKER_00: But the second part of mental health is having coping skills that help move through that emotion that are safe and not destructive in and of themselves.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: And I bring that up now because I think one way to tell if our kid is in pain, this is certainly true for me right now, is when our kiddo begins to engage in destructive behaviors of some sort, they're out of the norm.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: Right?
30:54
SPEAKER_02: That might be a sign that's your kid in pain in emotional pain.
30:58
SPEAKER_02: Something's out of their norm.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: And that's what I also mean by attunement is we know their norm.
31:04
SPEAKER_02: No one knows your kid better than you.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: And so that is a really important thing to remember as a parent that like we can pay attention to when something feels out of the limits.
31:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, wait, I was gonna say one more thing.
31:20
SPEAKER_02: Oh, so just I think actually, as we start to move towards completion, if you just said something really important, and that is around strategy, right?
31:29
SPEAKER_02: So when when we can start to separate like all these things that are often happening within minutes of an interaction, you know, how do I not go into your pain?
31:40
SPEAKER_02: How do I stay grounded in my seat?
31:42
SPEAKER_02: How do I not jump into problem solving, you know, and instead give them room to just either feel it, be curious with it, let them just validate what's happening for them?
31:52
SPEAKER_02: Because again, have we kind of started like their pain is their pain and it's valid, right?
31:58
SPEAKER_02: And then we kind of can move into, hey, do you want to problem solve this?
32:03
SPEAKER_02: And how can we have some strategies to cope?
32:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I had a question from a client yesterday.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: We were talking about this very thing, and there was some confusion on her end between, you know, her question was so does a lot, so I just allow for the pain?
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, what if something quote unquote bad is happening?
32:28
SPEAKER_00: Cutting, drinking, drugging, whatever that thing is, right?
32:33
SPEAKER_00: What if the behavior, what if the unhealthy behavior is actually quote unquote dangerous, right?
32:40
SPEAKER_00: So the pain itself, the emotional feelings may not be dangerous, but the coping is dangerous.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: And her question was just what you're alluding to.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, so what?
32:50
SPEAKER_00: I just allow for it and don't do anything about it.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think really what you and I are talking about is when we allow for it first, right?
33:02
SPEAKER_00: When we make room for their our kiddo's pain and discomfort, that normal response to external stress, that emotional pain, that emotional discomfort, and we soften around it in our own bodies, right?
33:17
SPEAKER_00: Then our taking action with our kid is not in and of itself to make them no longer feel the pain.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: It's to help them no longer engage in that destructive behavior.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: So that we can do both.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: We can allow for the emotional experience and problem solve for the external behavior.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: Did that make sense?
33:43
SPEAKER_02: It makes total sense to me.
33:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think it also is something that you said earlier, maybe I said that is like when we can listen from a place of not being caught up in their fear, then we can actually hold more perspective and not like project that this catastrophic thing.
34:04
SPEAKER_02: So, like let's say you're sitting there and they they had a terrible day at school, they've been having a shitty week, and then they went out and got blacked out drunk, right?
34:13
SPEAKER_02: So the end result was the blacked out drunk, to your point, the destructive behavior.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: And but there, there you are sitting with them in a moment where they're not actually in danger.
34:24
SPEAKER_02: And if we actually can practice being in that moment with them, it's like, I mean, that moment where everything is actually okay in that moment, that's when that's when the insight really develops.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: That's when they can have there can be a moment of like self-reflection.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: There can be a moment of being held by us, you know.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is, I think this is actually one of the hardest things is like, how do we hold their hand in their crippling anxiety?
34:54
SPEAKER_02: How how do we like look at them when we know that they lied to us?
34:58
SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, it's like things that are that are teenagers are gonna fuck up, you know, like that.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: And yes, I'm jumping to teenage behavior right now, but that is so inevitable that it takes like just a such a new level of superpower as the adult to be able to know that, hold that, and be present with the moment in order to think what's next.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, what I hear you saying is that in the moment of the emotional pain before the blackout drunkness or before the cutting or before the whatever the thing is, right?
35:36
SPEAKER_00: In the emotion in the moment of emotional pain, your kiddos had a really hard week and they're feeling the heaviness of that week.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: If I in this moment can make room for that pain in my own body, I'm essentially showing them that it's okay for them to make room for that pain.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, which makes it less likely that they're gonna go get blacked out drunk to get away from the pain.
36:03
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
36:04
SPEAKER_02: Right?
36:05
SPEAKER_02: Yes, because you're able to tolerate their discomfort.
36:08
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: And send them the message that the way they feel is okay and the feeling is not a problem.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: But the blacking out drunk, the cutting, the freaking, I don't know, staying up all night doing video games, the whatever the heck that it is that kids would do.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: Binge eating.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: Binge eating.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes, those are activities to get away from emotional pain that they don't know what to do with.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: This is so interesting because we're doing the both and we're saying you can both make room for the pain and help problem solve with the behavior.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: But we're also saying if you make room for the pain, there's less likely that there's going to be that destructive behavior.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: And then there's this really important piece that is so worth naming.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: And that is that as the emotional spaceholders in the families, as we mothers often are, what do we do with that once we've sat with their pain?
37:08
SPEAKER_02: Because we are sponging them.
37:10
SPEAKER_02: There's just no way around it.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: So, and you've heard us say this before.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: This is when we shake, when we cry, when we move, when we vent, when we take it with to an adult source that can hold it with us so that we can actually feel all the pain that we just possibly absorbed.
37:29
SPEAKER_02: That is so part of this because I think if we kind of have these moments, if we're, you know, we're making, we're dodging bolts all the time, right?
37:38
SPEAKER_02: Making decisions.
37:39
SPEAKER_02: Can I do this?
37:40
SPEAKER_02: Can I do that?
37:41
SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, there's a you just like threw a dagger at me, child, you know, and now I'm like supposed to serve you eggs, you know, it's like it's just this constant roller coaster that we have to, have to, have to give ourselves room and permission to move it through our bodies because that's when the shit gets stuck inside of us.
38:00
SPEAKER_02: And then we as adults lose perspective.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: So it's nice that I think that is again what a beautiful place to sort of come full circle because that is what this podcast is here for, so that we can sort of share perspective.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: And that is what I love about our friendship.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: And I also think there is this thing that we need to remember.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: I was on a uh a walk recently with a friend who's got older kids.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, her kids, like any of our kids, have gone through stages of really intense pain and destructive behavior, right?
38:38
SPEAKER_00: And the reality is that they're no longer in that place, right?
38:42
SPEAKER_00: And and she said the most beautiful statement to me.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: She said, um, our stories can become part of our history once we have moved through them.
38:55
SPEAKER_00: And you and I and her, and probably dare I say, all of our listeners have had moments in their life of deep pain and destructive behavior around that pain.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: And they've moved through it.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: Right?
39:10
SPEAKER_00: So cheers to that.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: Cheers to that.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: And so that's just that reminder, too, that we can feel pain and be safe and okay at the same time.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: And that's what we're doing with our kids when they're in moments of pain.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
39:26
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
39:26
SPEAKER_02: That was enlightening.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Always, it's always enlightening.
39:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna stop this.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna hang up this podcast and I'm gonna shake it off.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: Let's go shake it.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: Let's go shake it off.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: I love you.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: Hey, you guys, it's Kate.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: And if you did, go ahead and share it with a friend.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: It also would mean the world to me and Deb if you would take a minute and write a review.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: If this podcast makes you laugh, makes you cry in the best of ways, helps you feel less alone, gives you information that's useful to you in your mothering journey.
40:02
SPEAKER_00: If you write a review, it will make this more accessible to other mothers like you.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: So take a minute.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: We'd be so grateful.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being here.