Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / The Cannibal of Rothenburg - Armin Meiwes

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The Cannibal of Rothenburg - Armin Meiwes · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: True crime is a genre with a lot of twists
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: and turns. Today's story of Armin Mwis is no exception.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: You see, while our men commits an absolutely horrendous crime,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: there is arguably no victim in today's case. And that's
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: because Armin had a golden rule that he absolutely needed
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: to follow. His target needed to be a willing participant.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben and I'm Nicole, and you're listening to
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcasting.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: The following podcast and material intended format your audience listener discretion.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: He's advised, Hey, that scared the ship out of honey.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Did it?
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Actually it did. She was just standing up and like
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: just finished stretching and then you opened it. She jumped like, mother,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: that was brutal.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, to be honest or to be fair, to
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: be fair, I'll watch scares honey.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: That's true. She's pretty char poor little thing. Yeah.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: That's a rescue dog.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. What's up? How's it going? How's it hanging for
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: everyone out there in the world wide world of things
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: and stuff?
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Hopefully it's going all right.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Hopefully we're sitting here having a drink. Cheers, cheers, cheers, cheers.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: We got some pretty cool stuff that we're going to
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: talk about. First up, barbecue sauce.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Bar but Q sauce.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: That probably makes no sense to most of people listening right.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Now, Hey, guys, blew our minds.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: So just to really quickly put everyone in perspective what
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: we're talking about the end of our last episode, we're like,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: who really listens to the very end because we start
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: ranting and just bantering a little bit for the last
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: ten minutes right after the case is over.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Probably not that long five minutes.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like, okay, if you're actually still listening
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: here when we're just kind of off ranting and done
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: the story, go comment on our social media and say
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: barbecue sauce. That's what we told everyone, And we had
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: a lot of people go comment, DM, you name it
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: on different platforms. Just barbecue sauce was coming in all
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: over the place.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for a few days, I just kept getting notifications
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: of barbecue sauce. Yeah, just like what the It was
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: shocking in like an amazing way.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: It was real.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: It was really cool. I'm shocked that many people listen
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: to us at the end, So thank you. Yeah, But
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: we decided that we would do a little bit of
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: our ranch draw for anyone that commented barbecue sauce in
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: any way, so we kind of compiled everyone.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you commented or DMed barbecue sauce to
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: us in the last seven days, you're in the draw
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: for this right now.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we did the draw, so we're ready. We
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: have a winner.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, drimroll.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Rhannon Leclaire.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Awesome, Rhannon. We're going to send you a little piece
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: of our merch. This is a thank you for listening
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: to the end and commenting and yeah.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so maybe get in touch with us. We'll also
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: try to get in touch with you. But yeah, you
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: got you got yourself a little winnings there, a little winnings. Yeah,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: it's very exciting, a little.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Wicked winnings just because hey, why not, you're awesome.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We decided we liked surprising or doing little odd
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: things once in a while and that that seemed fitting.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was completely off topic here, but I'm curious
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: what everyone's going to be doing for Halloween. Nicole is
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: apparently going to be working. She's too bound up with
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: her photography gig, so she has to stay home.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Oh well, because it's absolutely disgusting how much I have
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: to do.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: That's that's understandable. Yeah, but I got my costume all
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: figured out. Yeah, I'm gonna be going out. If anyone knows,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: I am going to be Yukon Cornelius from the Rudolph
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: the Red Nose Reindeer movie.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: You're gonna look adorable.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: It's because of the beard and I'm just gonna I'm
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: gonna have like a little nugget of tinfoil that I'm
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: gonna paint gold. It's gonna be my gold because he's
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: always searching for gold, right, So yeah, it's gonna be fun.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: You're gonna have fun.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Oh you have no idea. I love Halloween and I
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: love getting into character, so it's gonna be fan didalitastic.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd be a good night.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, there's actually a fundraiser Halloween party I'm gonna
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: be attending, So if you're local here in our area,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: it's the Good Cause cro Rescue fundraiser party. It's happening
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: down at the Black Clover and yeah, it's all fundraising
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: for a local bird rescue in town that a friend
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: of our data runs.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think it's gonna be a good time.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: It will be so if you're gonna be going to
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: that party, just look out for Yu Concordelius and that'll
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: be me.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: I think you'll be pretty easy to spot.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Probably. Are you ready for this case?
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Do you have anything else you want to talk about? First?
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. No. I think we should dive right.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: In, Yeah, head first or are we going to dip
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: toes in first?
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: It's always a head first with us, I'd.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Say, generally. Is so I kind of alluded a little
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: bit to some stuff in this intro. Arguably there are
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: no victims in this case. That is an arguable note,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: very highlighting on that here. Some people may think you
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: know what technically know and other people think, well, hey,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: technically yes.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to listen, hear the facts and then
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: I'll decide yes.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: But that little gray area of if it's a victim
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: role or not plays big into the whole court proceedings.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, man, this is a wild one.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Oh you have no idea? Okay. So it starts off
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: with an individual by the name of Armine Muis who
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: was born on December first in nineteen sixty one in Castle, Germany. Okay, Now,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: he had a little bit of a troubled upbringing that
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: kind of laid the foundation for his quite disturbing actions
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: later on in life. So he grew up as an
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: only child to his mother, Waltred Muis, but did have
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: two older half brothers for his from his father's previous relationship. Now,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: when he did have a father, this father wasn't much
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: of a good guy. He was kind of a deadbeat dad,
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: kind of type that took off when Armand was only
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: eight years old, leaving them, you know, kind of high
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: and dry. Yeah, that's bad, and leaving Arman with this
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: kind of very stern and disinterested mother. Okay, so his
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: childhood was marked by profound loneliness, you could say his mother,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: now the soul Guardian, consistently scolded him in public and
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: demanded to accompany him everywhere he went. He didn't really
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: have much of a life outside of his mom, you know,
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: puppeteering most of it. And he's kind of lacking the
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: father figure or other siblings now they're not in the
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: house with him as well. So Arman actually created an
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: imaginary brother named Frankie, to whom he would often confide
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: in with. You know, his his his fears, you know
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: what makes him happy or sad, anything that's going on
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: inside his emotions or anything. Right.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's so innocent.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: And particularly his deepest and darkest secrets, his cannibalistic.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Oh shit, I take my words back.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not so innocent. Oh no, he had these quite
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: macob fantasies about cannibalism. They kind of began about the
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: age of twelve, really, yes, when he began starting to
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: imagine consuming his friends.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, that seems like really early to be having
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: thoughts like that, but what do I.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Know, Well, what gets really interesting is why he's having
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: these thoughts, because this goes really deep psychologically, if you
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: really want to open this can of worms. He's imagining
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: eating his friends because if he ate them that he
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: would literally like absorb their essence sort of say, right, yeah,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: so his friends would technically always be with him and
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: he would never be alone again.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Oh shit. Yeah, that's both disturbing and really really sad
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: and kind of cute. Yeah, which is a lot of things.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it is. And it's a very grim solution
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: to like this deep sense of isolation since the abandoned
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: mint he had. So you have an eight year old
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: whose father abandoned him, whose siblings not abandoned, but also
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: forced to leave right and so now they're just alone
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: and never want to be left alone again. So a
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: couple of years later they come up with the idea
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: on consuming those close to them so they could never leave.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Oh that is actually really hard to absorb.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: Isn't that fucked up a lot?
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: It's very fucked But it's also very sad and very
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: it's almost like heartworming, which I just Yes, it's heartbreaking. Yes,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: it's very disturbing saying these things. But I have a
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: lot of emotions going through my head right now about this.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, trust me, I feel you. I was there researching
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: the dikes. So years would pass as Arman grew up,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: always hiding his secret ambitions of this cannibalistic act from
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: the world, but eventually tragedy would strike September two, nineteen
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: ninety nine, when he returned home from work one day
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: to find his mother dead in her bed from the
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: result of a heart attack. Now suddenly he really was alone,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: legitimately alone for the first time in his life.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Now I did find some rather macabre accounts of Armine
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: creating somewhat of a shrine to his mother in the home,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: complete with a mannekin that he would kind of treat
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: as her he lay to bed each evening. However, these
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: claims kind of lack any substantial evidence as far as
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: I could find, and it's more widely reported that he
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: more so swiftly erased her presence from his life entirely.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, kind of like it didn't so that he would
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: maybe miss her less or something.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like his mother wasn't even there looking over him,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: sort of thing.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: He didn't eat his mother at all, did he?
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: No, No, he didn't. Okay, you're good, that's good. But basically,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: within like two months of her passing, though, he removed
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: all of her belongings, family, heirlooms, whatever he could, basically
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: attempting to rid himself of her influence entirely because, like
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I said, she kind of was puppeteering his life for
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of it and was kind of like an
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: abrasive parent. I guess you could say so. I don't
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: think he was too attached to her, but in that
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: sense now he really is alone too. I'm sure that
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: would have him a bit of an impact.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: It's actually a little bit impressive that he kind of
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: was able to be rid of her so quickly.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: Actually, the control that she had over him for so.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Long, well, I think it's kind of more like a
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: like the shackles are gone sort of situations, you know.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: But it could have gone another way, It could have Yeah.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: But at least in this instant, like with her domineering
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: presence like completely gone, he was able to gain this
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: like whole new found freedom, which is nice when you
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: say it out loud, but in this case not so much. So.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: He soon found himself immersed in the world of the Internet,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: particularly exploring online porn that would feature torture and pain.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: And through these dark corners of the Internet, he eventually
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: would stumble upon chat rooms centered around similar pleasures and
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: eventually cannibalism. Oh boy, Yeah, which further fueled his disturbing
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: interest that he had held since he was a kid. Yeah.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: And coupling that with the release of these bonds of
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: an overbearing mother, say, it's kind of a recipe for disaster.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: So in this newfound virtual realm armand found this solace
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: I'll be most in the most twisted way possible as
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: he kind of delved into this fascination and in the
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: year two thousand, He began taking to chat rooms that
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: he became so familiar with and was looking for like
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: minded individuals who would play the role of a quote
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: willing victim.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, the freaking Internet. Oh the Internet is
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: it's scary place.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, if you know the song by Bo Burnham
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Internet, that just that says everything right there.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Uh huh, Actually it doesn't even it can go even
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: further than when he talks about it's pretty lighthearted how
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: he puts it. But for Arman, he got onto these areas,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: these chat rooms with these cannibal type interested people, and
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: he posted an advertisement at a website called Quote the
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Cannibal Cafe, which did have a disclaimer mentioning the distinction
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: between reality and fantasy. So this is.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Supposed to be like, it's supposed to be a fantasy.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's a fantasy based kind of thing, right, Yeah, But.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Also I met you anything, the majority of the people
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: in there had, you know, wanted to act on this fantasy.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: I feel like at least a few in there, well, I'm.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Going to put it into kind of a bit of
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: perspective here, there might be at least a few, But
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: I remember you watching some show before where there was
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: some woman who had a fantasy of someone like jumping
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: her bone sort of thing, right, unexpectedly, kind of like
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: a assault fantasy is a white way to put it.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: And so the husband had arranged a little situation where
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: that assault fantasy could happen, right, yeah, But then when
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: that situation happened, she freaked out and she didn't actually
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: like it because it's it's just a fantasy. It's different
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: than reality. Yeah, you know, the idea is one thing,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: but reality having an actually happened that that's something entirely
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: on its own.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: What a weird thing to pop in your head.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Well, because that thing stuck with me, I'm like, that's
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: a fucked up fantasy it is. This was just a
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: daytime TV show, so it really it's sat with.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: I can't even remember what show it was on, you
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: know what I'm talking because they're like that car garage
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: and shit, right yeah, and I have heard like this
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: is a thing. I know people do have this fantasy.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm not judging anyone on their fantasies or
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: anything like that, but like to sit here and actually
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: like I don't like, shit can just go so wrong?
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Is kind of what I'm.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Trying to say, you know, yeah, so totally.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Anyways, in this chat room or website or whatever, he
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: posted something that stated quote looking for a well built
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: eighteen to thirty year old to be slaughtered, and then
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: consumed he had also made life size paper mache human
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: heads and then hung them from the ceiling with various
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: sawed off mannequin parts. He took pictures of these and
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: posted them along with photos of himself holding large butcher knives.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: This was to aid in his post, to show whoever
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: that read it how serious he was and how serious
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: he wasn't wanting to do these things.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Oh heard? Wow? Was he a big dude himself?
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: I actually I'm not too sure. I didn't really find
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: his size, if I'm being honest. Initially, though, he did
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: have an age range listed of eighteen to twenty five
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: years old, but after a while without any success, he
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: then went and raised the age range to eighteen to thirty.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Years Okay, he wants him to be as fresh as possible,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I guess so.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: And I think it's kind of like he's looking for
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: him to be a bit fit too, because he did
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: say like muscular, but like not too muscular sort of thing,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: like he's looking for well built men.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: Ah.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Some people did respond to the advertisement, but one by
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: one they would each back out of the arrangement, probably
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: because that whole fantasy verse reality. Yeah, it's you know.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: They realized just motherfucker was serious.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so Arman did not push. No one was forced
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: to do anything they didn't want to do. If he's
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: chatting with some of these individuals who are interested and
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: they suddenly got cold feet or whatever, that's fine.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: He stepped back.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not pushing anyone, Okay, And that includes an
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: individual by the name of Burned Brands who also answered
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: the advertisement and actually followed through with the advertisement.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: So he didn't push this individual just like everyone else.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Burned never really got pressured into anything. But when burn
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: did respond to this ad that was placed out there
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: by armand he responded with a message that was titled
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: quote dinner, and it read quote I offer myself to
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: be eaten alive, No slaughter, but.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Eaten, eaten alive.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Wow, that was the initial message.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: He said, Yes, that is quite the message.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Now. I do think it's very important to note that
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: both of these men were openly bisexual. Okay, both burned
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: and arm in okay, which I mean could mean that
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: there's this sexual piece to the puzzle that's at play,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: but nothing is ever really confirmed or anything. And I
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: mean like maybe in a similar way that like vampires
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: are drinking blood in a sexualized way that Hollywood shows
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: sort of thing, right, Like there's this kind of like
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: sexual fantasy about it. Maybe.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: But the one dude is like way older, right.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: He is older? Yes, yeah, because this is around two
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: thousand and he was born when.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Was it sixty? So maybe not way older, not way older,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: just a bit older.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's he's forty right now, thirty nine or forty
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: something like that.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, so not terrible, okay, but.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like I said, they're both openly bisexual, which, hey,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: all the power to him. Yeah, but there is that
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: possibility that that plays into some sort of fantasy thing
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: right now, Between the two of them, they discussed every
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: detail on how it was going to work. They talked
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: about how burned would be killed, howl, what would happen
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: to him afterwards, how his body will be processed, how
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: his body would be stored and Burnt actually even offered
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: the idea that Hey, his skull could be used as
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: an ashtray afterwards.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, this is a lot, This is a lot.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: My little uh little gears are really turning here.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well I'm sure there's where too, because, like I said,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: they talked about everything burned was on board. Burn was
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: not in the dark. They What was talked about was
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: what was going to happen. No, manipulation is happening with
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: our men here. He's not pulling any strings, not pulling
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: any fast ones. He's talking about this is what I
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: want to do.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Which so it's very wild, but I can at least
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: appreciate that, I suppose.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but this was also part of his vision, his fantasy,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: not just to have someone that he could kill or
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: eat or whatever. He wanted a willing person to volunteer themselves.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: So this person had to know everything. Yeah, that's what
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: he wanted.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Which I feel like the fact that he could even
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: potentially find someone like this is like a needle in
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: a haystack.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And again this goes back to his thoughts as
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: a kid. He wanted to do this not only for
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: eating another human, having that fascination. Yeah, but so he
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: would never be alone again.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, right, okay, the mixed emotions going through me
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: right now in Mola.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So, Burned had another idea, not just his skul
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: could be used as an ash tray. He had this idea,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: one that he'd actually been thinking of for a long time.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: He was actually suffering from severe masochistic thoughts and he
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: wanted to cut off his own penis, so that was
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: also going to be in play for this.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, that's quite the new layer.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: So the two met up on March ninth, two thousand
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: and one, and proceeded over to Armin's home in the
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: smallville of Rodenberg.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: The worst we're in Germany, right, yes, okay.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: So once inside our men's home, Armin went to the
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: kitchen and prepared a couple cups of coffee, you know,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: one for himself, one for burn You know, they're meeting
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: for the first time here, they're gonna chat or whatever
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: it is, right, And when he returned back to go
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: see his guest, Burned had stripped down naked and told
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Armin he wanted him to admire his dinner.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Oh lord, okay, okay, okay, this probably wouldn't have been
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: a good one to film, because I am very.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Uncomfortable right now, Well you think you're uncomfortable now, because
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: this is where things really began.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: I just feel like it's so awkward often meeting new
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: people and then this, I just I just can't even imagine.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Like literally, when you're coming back with a cup of coffee,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: they're just naked that but then also what they're about
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: to talk about. It's like do I serve coffee? Do
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I serve vodka? Do I serve? Like? What the fuck
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: do I serve this person? And then you walk you
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: chose coffee and you walk back and he's fucking naked,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Like I, I just I can't do this right now,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: this is a bit much.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Just really hope he didn't serve like cocktail, weenies or anything.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that would have been perfect.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Actually you think, sure, well, let's get back on track here.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Burned had told him, you know, admire or dinner sort
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: of thing, right, But burn had also told our men
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: that for this to happen, he wanted to be unconscious
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: when he was killed.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, yes, yeah, that's that's fair.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So after you know, sitting there talking for a
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: little while, he downed half a bottle of cold medicine
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: and they waited for him to lose consciousness.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Oh like, it was just like literally that. It was
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: like he was his dinner that night. Yeah, this is
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: going down.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: This is going down right here right now.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Okay. I thought maybe they're going to get to know
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: each other a bit more.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, No, well, I mean they have been talking online, right,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: so it's not just like, oh hey, I answered, and
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: let's do this. Well, they are building up this, this
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: understanding and rapport online already.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: So they are both firm in it and they know
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: what's happening. They're meeting up and we're here. So they
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: are here and waiting. Now, that's basically it. And waiting
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: gave time for the reality of the situation to really
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: kick in. And now Burne was beginning to get a
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: little bit of cold feet. The more he sat, the
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: more he thought about every reason not to do it,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: until he finally changed his mind. And as I already mentioned,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: our men need someone to be completely willing. Right. He
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: did not hold anyone back. It's fine. He wasn't about
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: to force anyone. So I'm sure he's disappointed, but he said, okay,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: that's fine, it's your choice. And they got in the
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: car and Burn went to drive or sorry, Arman went
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: to drive Burn back home. Okay, well, so on the
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: way home, though, the idea of explaining where he was
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: in the situation on everything to his partner at home,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: because he did have a partner, made him think, you
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: know what, fuck it, that sounds like a can of worms.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: I don't even want to bother opening anyways, So let's
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: go back and do this. Really, yes, so he changed
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: his mind again and they were headed back to Armand's home.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, though, the fact that he is his
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: partner at home that has no idea what's going on
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: is really sad.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: It is, it really is so. Burn though, still did
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: want to be unconscious for this when he was killed.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: So on the way home, being that that cold medicine
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: wasn't quite enough, they stopped and bought some stronger cold medical. Well,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: it's one of two things. It was either stronger cold
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: medication or a bottle of schnaps. There was varying articles
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: on those two, but the one that is consistent is
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: a bottle of sleeping pills as well. Oh okay, so
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: they bought They bought either a bottle of booze and
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: sleeping pills or more stronger cold medicine and sleeping pills.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: But for the for the remainder of this, I will
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: just say the more cold medication, just because that seems
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: to be the more prevalent one. But that one I'm
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: shady on. But they bought these and then returned to
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Armine's place. And once they were there, this time our
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: men began recording everything on a camera, everything that was
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: taking place. And Bernard, I'm sorry, burned, Bernard burned, my bad.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: He would take approximately thirty sleeping pills and down some
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: of the cold medication and they would wait.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Holy shit.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: But in this process of waiting, they decided that they
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: are going to cut burns penis off his body.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: You don't say, yeah.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: So Burns had actually reportedly insisted that Arman bite it
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: off instead of using a knife.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: However, it proved unsuccessful, though he was able to burst
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: both of his testicles between his teeth.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Good god, the visuals, dude, that you're throwing out here?
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Sorry wow, Okay.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: He couldn't chew it all. He was able to pop
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: some testicles instead, So since he couldn't use his teeth
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: to remove it, they then turned to a knife from
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: the kitchen and began hacking away. However, this knife also
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: proved successful because it was too dull, so they went
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: and grabbed a second knife, and finally our men was
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: able to completely severed burns penis.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, oh that was a paragraph. I don't know the
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: visuals in there. Also, you know, keep your knife sharp.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: You never know, you.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Never know if you need to sever a penis.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, oh boy, wow, Nicole, that was so well.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: You are actually an advocate of keeping our knife sharp.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: I really am.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we hate a dull knife. I don't know why.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Maybe this is gonna help me.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: If I try and cut a tomato and I can't
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: slice through that skin in one motion, I am bothered. Anyways,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: these two were now standing there holding the bloody severed
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: heart of burn and they then proceeded to each cut
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: a piece off and pop the raw meat in their mouths.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: They chewed on the fresh and still warm, bloodied flesh,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: but ultimately, though our men was able to eat, it
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: was unable to due to it being so tough or
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: is he put it quote chewy?
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Holy Okay, I can't actually comprehend like, because that would
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: hurt like a son of a batch.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Oh you bet you?
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: And then to be like able to just then have
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: a bite a piece like I just I would feel
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: like he would be in a lot of pain.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I bet he is. Okay, I really I
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: can't think he's probably in a lot of pain right now.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: In fact, I can almost feel it. If I'm being honest,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: I am rather uncomfortable at this moment.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Wow. Okay.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: But since Burn was unsuccessful in eating the piece of meat,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Armand decided he would try cooking it instead to serve
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: to him in hopes to make it more edible. So
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: he took it to the kitchen, chopped it up in
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: small chunks, and put it in a pan, and sauteed
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: his penis with salt, pepper, and garlic. The result was subpar,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: and it was still inedible and yeah, okay, didn't give
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: them much of a desired flavor.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Sorry for laughing that. I just have to clarified that
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: I thought you were about to say lapenis or something.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: And then yeah, that's why I laugh because I yeah, anyway,
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: we're both very.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Uncomfortable becauseis I don't even know. So our men, not
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: wanting to waste the meat, decided he would feed the
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: remainder of it to his dog.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, so the dog got the dinner too.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, So a bit of a spoiler alert here. Armn
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: does eventually get caught because some journalists who would eventually
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: see the video that our men had recorded, which the
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: video not being made public, by the way, really good yeah,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: reported that Burned he may have suffered from the effects
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: of both the drugs and his wound too much to
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: have actually eaten any of it, even if it was edible. Anyways,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: he was visibly becoming pale with shock, sick from the medication,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: and was suffering from blood loss due to the injury.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he would not have been in a good
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: place at all.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, definitely not so as they were. Actually, as the
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: two Burne and Arman were waiting for him to pass out,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: burn was beginning to complain of being cold and asked
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: our men to pour him a nice warm bath so
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: he could be more comfortable and warm up. Right, the
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: idea basically being, you know, he's going to be passing
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: out here soon, maybe instead of sitting here shivering, he
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: can warm up, and maybe the water will aid in
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: bleeding out a bit. Who knows. So that's exactly what
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Armin did. He drew him a nice warm bath, and
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: burn slipped into the water, and they waited. Our men
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: actually sat in another room and read a Star Trek
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: book for nearly three hours while he waited for his
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: voluntary victim to finally fall unconscious. During this entire time,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Burne was slowly fading. He never once asked for an ambulance.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: He never once began to back down from the idea.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: In fact, he explicitly told Armin not to call for
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: any sort of help once he falls unconscious, to follow
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: through with what they planned. Okay, So, once Burne was
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: unconscious and presumably dead, Armin cut open his throat to
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: ensure he was in fact dead, and inside an area
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: of his home that he had prepared for this exact moment,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: an area that he had called and dubbed the slaughterhouse,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: our men began butchering Burn's body. He cut him into
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: sections and hung them on meat hooks from the ceiling,
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: just as he had watched butchers do in the past.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Armen recorded much of the process while he butchered his volunteer,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: and a few days later, Armand began consuming the flesh
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: he had cut from his bones. Again most of the
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: meat was too chewy, so Armand decided to grind most
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: of the meat and made meatballs to dispose of the bones.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: He ground them up too, and even tried to make
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: a flower out of them, though I'm unsure if he
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: was successful with it or not, and there are reports
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: that he kept Burn's head to preserve as much of
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: the meat as he could. He did what we all
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: do with our groceries. He froze it, and whenever he
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: was looking to cook dinner, he would just take out
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: some of the meat and cook it up. He consumed
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: an estimated twenty kilograms of burns flesh over the course
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: of the next ten months, and now, in November of
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: two thousand and two, our men was getting dangerously low
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: on his supply.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, wow, Ben, what I don't know. I like
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: a good cannibalism case, but this is something. This is
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: really something like I'm actually at a very much loss
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: of words here. I'm just sitting back wish and I
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: had another drink?
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Do you want me torap you another one? I can?
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Is that one out? Almost?
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Almost?
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah? This is this case does make me very uncomfortable.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, we've we've heard much more brutal things occur,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: especially when it comes to torturing individuals, but this is
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: it's very different. It's very different, very different, and it's
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: quite disturbing.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: Huh, because it's hard because you don't know what to
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: think really because he kind of just like murdered somebody.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: But then did he just murder Well he did, you know?
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as I said at the very beginning, there may
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: or may not be a quote unquote victim.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: But then you think a lot of times if people
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: say are suicidal and then they go about killing themselves
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: or or they don't, they're not successful, they wish they're
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: glad they weren't, you know. Yeah, And so it's sort
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: of that's something that's going through my mind right now, too,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: is like, well, would he have really actually wanted this?
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: You know, did he really really think it through and
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: want this?
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Well, over the course of time when our men and
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Burned first showed up at Armin's house to the time
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: when Burne finally passed away, they were there at his
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: home for approximately seventeen hours. Okay, so he had seventeen
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: hours and he wavered once and then finally decided, no,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: this is actually happening, and he never bad of an
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: eye after that, because.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: You'd think too if he was gonna waiver again. I
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: guess another time would have been after he got his
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: penis cut off, yeap. That could have been like I'm out, yeah.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Or when he's finally you know, the lack of blood
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: loss or shock or getting sick from the pills. But no,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: he even after all that, he wants to get in
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: the bath and maybe bleed out faster, these sort of things.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: So I don't think wow, I mean that we can
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: never know what someone in that headspace is thinking or
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: even why. But one thing's for sure is he had
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: his mind made up.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: M hm.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Now is he a victim or not? That's definitely still
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: a completely different argument because what was his headspace. He
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: might have had his mind made up, but what was
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: he capable of making his mind up on his own?
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Was there an illness going right?
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because he's not really the victims that we normally cover. No,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: So it's it's difficult.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: He's not against it, it's not against his will. But
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: is he in the right mind to make that call
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: for himself exactly? That's the question. Yeah, And we just
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: don't know. So now with Arman getting low on his supply,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: he once again took to the Internet and created another
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: post looking for another volunteer.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: Oh boy.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: This time it was seen by an Australian student in
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Innsbruck and they were slightly disturbed by what they read
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: and thankfully reported it to local authorities.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, but I mean, honestly, he's gone away with it once,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: why wouldn't he do it again? Right right?
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: I mean he found a willing person sort of thing.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: It didn't seem to be any troubles and yeah, we
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: are so it would be on December eleventh, two thousand
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: and two when police would knock on the door and
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: raid Armand's house and there in his place they found
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: fifteen pounds of Burn's flesh under pizza boxes in the freezer,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: which he was using the pizza boxes as to kind
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: of cover and hide.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Right, oh geez.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And they also found the video that Arman had
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: made of the killing and butchering, almost two hours worth
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: of footage, and Arman was of course quickly taken into custody.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: He promptly confessed to the wild, heinous crime that occurred.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: It took the police a total of seven months to
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: build the full case against them. They were meticulously analyzing
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: his computer for evidence, conversations that he had posts, photos
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: he had saved, He did some photoshopping and manipulations of
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: things because he had these fantasies, right, So he was
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: he was doing a lot on his computer in that
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: regards right over the past few years. There was thousands
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: of images they found regarding torture and pornography that he
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: had gotten off the internet. And on July seventeenth and
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: two thousand and three, our men was finally charged with
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: the murder of Burned Brands.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Okay, he was charged.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. During his trial, which was for obvious reasons, really
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: catching the public's interest and attention, nineteen minute minutes of
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: that video was played with crucial moments of the crime
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: being shown in court. As again I said already, though
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: the footage was never made public. There was somewhat of
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: a problem though the fact that Burns was not really
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: a victim per se. And that's kind of a strange
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: way to put it. I don't know how else to
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: say it. If he's technically a victim or not, but
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: whether he was or not, or was he a willing
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: participant through a really big curve ball to the courtroom,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: something like they've never really seen before. Well.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: The case also posed a challenge for German legal authorities
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: because they soon covered that cannibalism technically was not illegal
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: in Germany. Really, it technically was not illegal.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Well how could it not be?
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: Though it wasn't. There was nothing saying that you couldn't.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, okay.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So it was on January thirty, thirtyeth two thousand
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: and four that Armann was convicted. And I'm correcting myself here,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: I already said he was convicted of murder. He was
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: not convicted of murder. He was convicted of manslaughter or
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: a certain degree of murder, so I guess technically, but okay,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: So he was convicted of manslaughter and handed an eight
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: and a half year prison sentence for his crimes. Huh,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: eight and a half years for what he did. Now,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: this verdict not surprisingly sparked widespread debate because there is
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: a lot I'm sure a lot of people out there
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: listening right now are like, hold on, hold the phone,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: what about this? What about this? They might be disagreeing
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: with me or you or having a complete other thought,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: and rightfully so.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Because there is so much this I'm honestly surprised that
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: it was that much.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: Is What was my thought was you think eight and
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: a half is a lot?
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Well, I was assuming. I was just thinking it was
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: going to be less. This is it's so this is
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: so interesting because there's no no history.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Or there's no precedence or something like this.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Basically though, like the widespread debate was questioning whether he
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: could really be held responsible considering that the quote unquote
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: victim Burns was instead a volunteer. And not only was
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: he a volunteer, but he participated in the act fully
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: aware of Arman's intentions. And it's not like this is
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: just Arman saying it. No, there's conversations, there's video everything. Yeah,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they have the footage of him talking
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: like but in the bathtub. Probably even he.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: Still knows that it was wrong, right, Like, I mean,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: he's covering up evidence with like the some of the
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: remains are in the freezer and he has pizza boxes
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: over it, so he's aware that what he did is wrong.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, But technically Armin and Burns committed a crime together.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: It's not that Armin committed a crime against Burns. I
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: mean after his death, sure, there's desecration.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot after of crimes after death.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: And considering that cannibalism technically was not illegal, right, it's
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: basically just like desecration or like is there even Yeah,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: they're pretty much held at the same level at that point, almost,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: which is so fucking weird and like, I can't wrap
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: my mind around it. But that's that's the reality of
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: this case.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, if cannibalism isn't illegal, then yeah, because like
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: he didn't force him to take any of the medication
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: or anything.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Right, he didn't force anything on him.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Wow, Oh that is so wild.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: So despite Armin expressing regrets for his actions, he did
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: admit his He's like, yeah, I did do this, and
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you know, Okay, yeah, maybe it's wrong. I
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: shouldn't have done this all that nine, like the whole
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: nine sort of thing. He was expressing a desire to
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: actually eventually write a book about his life, hoping to
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: dissuade others from following this path. And I mean with
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: the Internet being the Internet and his case now being
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: public and out there and what he did is being known,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: websites dedicated to Armin were soon popping up with individuals
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: seeking willing victims just like he did. He basically planned
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: a seed that was beginning others to do the same.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he needed to have face some consequences or
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: there's going to be like way too many coffeecats.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so Arman Now being behind bars for the next
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: eight and a half years, he was quickly one to
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: speak out from behind these bars and was advocating for
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: individuals to get therapy. With his experience on the internet,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: he actually believed there to be around eight hundred cannibals
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: in Germany who needed help.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Real. Yes, that's a pretty high number.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: That's yeah, it is.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: That's scary.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. In April of two thousand and five, a German
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: court would order a retrial, leading to questions about Burn's
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: consent giving his mental health issues. Right, because what sort
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: of mindset is he in? Right? That plays a major
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: role in this. Not only that if you really look
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: at it, the excessive drug consumption. He had taken a
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: lot of drugs. Was he under the influence and able
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: to make this call? At that time? He had thirty
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: sleeping pills down half a bottle of cold medicine?
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: What kind of mental state was he in? Even if
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: he didn't have any mental health issues. He's now intoxicated.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: But he did that to himself, did he not? He
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: did right? He consumed all that himself.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, but put it this way.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that that.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Makes I'm just putting it out there, like making it clear.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: If I sit here and drink an entire bottle of whiskey,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: am I in the right headspace to go make good
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: choices for myself? Can I say I don't make marital
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: choices for us, or relationship choices with other people, or
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: or well being choices for myself. No, I'm probably gonna
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: want to go to McDonald's and get two freaking big
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: mac meals and eat them a good choice two, well,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: maybe three. But you know what I mean, We're not
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: in that headspace. We can't make that call. So these
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: are the questions that were being brought up in court
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: and in his retrial. The retrial also explored whether our
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Men acted out of his own desires, especially sexual ones,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: contrary to his own claims. So during this whole process,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: a psychologist testified that he still harbored fantasies about consuming
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: flesh of young people. So he is behind bars he
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: is saying people need help. I do regret this, but
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: he does still actually have these fantasies.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: I mean he's had these fantasies since he was twelve
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: years old.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine it's probably something that will be a
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: struggle for him for the rest of his life. Eventually, though,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: through the legal system, Armen was charged on May tenth,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: two thousand and six, and the Court of Frankfurt convicted
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Arman of murder for sexual pleasure and disturbing the peace
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: of the dead, sentencing him to life imprisonment.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: Wow. Yes, huh.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: In the aftermath of his conviction, Arman actually went on
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: to assist investigators in analyzing two suspected cannibal murders from
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight and two thousand, possibly committed by the
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: same murderer. While incarcerated, he adopted a vegetarian lifestyle, worked
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: in the prison library, and engaged in prisoner group supporting
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Green Party politics. Armin had several offers from film companies
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: and publishers to buy the rights to his story. He however,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: declined as he knew he should not have any sort
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: of personal gain from what transpired.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: I can very much appreciate that.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Instead, he granted global rights to his story to Stamps,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Hamburger Stance, hamp Hamburg, Hamburg, Hamburger, It's not Hamburger Stamps
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: Hamburg based company stamp Work. He granted them free of
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: charge all the rights. However, there was a contingency that
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: the act that sorry the stumbling these last few sentences here,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: they need to have accurate portrayal of his case, emphasizing
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: his unique and deeply disturbing narrative. So he's saying, yes,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: you have all the rights. I make no money, and
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: you need to tell the story right, and you need
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: to tell it from my perspective. Okay, So he's not
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: saying tell it my way, He's saying, tell it right,
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: but my perspective. Yeah, he is one hundred percent taking
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: ownership of this, not making any money off it, trying
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: to educate individuals and really standing for people in his situation,
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: getting the help needed.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: And no longer eating meat and no longer eating meat.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is a story of Armin Mwis also
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: known as the Cannibal of Rothenberg. Holy shit, how was
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: that one for you?
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: That has been one of the most interesting true crime
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: stories I think I've ever heard.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: I have so many mixed emotions over it. I just
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to process this one. I really
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: don't because at the.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: Beginning, oh, make a decision. At the end, well fuck that.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: I can't make a fucking decision to save my life
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: When you said that at the beginning, in my head,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: I was like, good luck, wow, because I can guarantee
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: you might be able to make a decision. And that's
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: if you can out there, if you're listening, you have
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: a decision, You're like, you know what, No, this is
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: what I believe. Good on you. That's totally fantastic. But
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: the problem is, there are so many compelling arguments to
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: pull you the other way, and if you land on
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: that other side instead, the compelling arguments on the other
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: side can pull you back. Both sides have so many
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: merits to the arguments. It is I'm speechless. It's wild.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, I very much think he needed jail time.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: I do agree with that he committed a crime, yes,
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: and I do also feel like he probably shouldn't be
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: just freely wandering our streets.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Ever, you know, well, I don't think he will be.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: He won't be, so that's probably a good thing because
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: like we kind of talked about that fantasy is ingrained
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: in his brain probably and like he could do it again. Yeah,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: so so yeah, I do they'll come of this kind
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: of probably kind of probably agree with That's a really
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: really strong statement right there.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're really standing on your ground there, babe.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Wow. It's very tough this.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: One, isn't it ever?
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: And the big tough as his penis was apparently.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Just oh wow wow you wow.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I apology, I apologize.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: Wow, all right? You said that?
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: Is that that? It just I had to put it
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: out there so no.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: That that joke was just hard to swallow. No, sorry,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: I had to.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: You just up leveled that big time.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: But one thing that's that really sits with me on
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: this one is his reasoning wanting to consume someone to
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: never be alone again. And the thing is he won't
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: ever be alone again.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like he's at peace with that. Now. Hey,
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: I don't think he is in a sense though maybe
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Know, because like I do think he knows he did wrong.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: I do think he does regret it. I'm sure he does.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: But I do think that there's that piece of him
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: that's like, you know, what I succeeded. I'm happy I'm
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: not alone and he kind of maybe is that peace
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: with it? But there is regret for it too. I
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: don't know. I can't make up any fucking mind in
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: this case.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: So you cannot. And you've spent a lot of time
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: researching and writing this out, oh man. So the fact
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: that you can't even.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Is I spent at least four to six more hours
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: in this case than I normally do per case.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Huh wow.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it I don't think that went into a
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: research time, that went into how the fuck do I
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: tell this story? How the fuck do I approach this?
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: How do I make up my own mind to really
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: present it to you guys in the best way that
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to put on what I think about
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: it or the other one thinks about it. It's yeah,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: Well, you did a good job.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I appreciate it.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Like I said this, I mean, We've done a lot
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: of true crime cases. I've listened and watched a lot,
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: and this is by far one of the most interesting ones.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: I would say this one caught my interests a lot
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: more than other ones have in the past. There's just
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I generally like the mystery cases, right,
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: And the reason why I like them is because it
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: gives you an open spot to really think, Okay, what
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: could have happened? Was it this? Was it that? Or
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: was this person involved? Or what if this? Was it
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: a UFO Bigfoot? Like all those possibilities. This is a
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: solved case, but it does the same thing.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, and I mean because his name was Burns,
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: is that how you're saying?
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, b E r N D okay burned burned?
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: I mean he was very young, so it's very sad
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: that that that he was. If he was a willing
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: participant or whatever, I mean, he had a very short
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: life really yeah, and he lost his life. That's sad
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: because if he didn't put himself out there, say he
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: went to someone else that was like willing to show
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: him the light, you know, then his life could have
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: a different trajectory big time. Yeah, right, if he was
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: just like, no, I'm going to help you, if someone
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: offered to help him, you know, he could now still
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: be alive and like thriving.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But arguably, I don't know, and I mean I
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: don't think I ever would know. I'm not sure if
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: he was specifically suicidal. I think it was just a fantasy,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: perhaps sexually driven, but a fantasy that he wanted to
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: live out. I don't think it had anything to be
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: with ending his own life. I think it was just
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: the idea of being a part of something, if that
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: makes any sense. Like, no different than when you see
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: cult people drinking the kool aid. They're not killing themselves.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: They're becoming a part of something else, which is why
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: they're so willing to do this thing. Yeah, in their eyes,
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: it's not my life is ending, it's I'm just I'm
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: achieving something.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: Hmm.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Did I give you a whole new pill to swallow?
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, we want to know what you guys think
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: of this case because this is really big. So we're
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: probably going to post a post on social media. Make
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: sure you go over and give us a comment on
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: there your thoughts on it, or shoot us a DM
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: or something like that. Yeah, because we don't know how
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: to process this one. We really don't.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people there will have
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: some opinions.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: So yeah, so let us know of those opinions. We're
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: going to be working here diligently, guess what's starts next week?
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: Oh? Crazy a, I feel I could just snuck up.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: So it starts technically on Wednesday. So we're gonna come
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: out with an episode on Tuesday.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: A normal like episode.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the following day, on Wednesday, Halloween Week starts.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: There's going to be eight solid days of wickeding grim.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah, pretty cool.
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: We had a lot of work to do coming up.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: So let's get at her.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: Let's do it. Maybe we should open another drink while
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: we're yeah, while we're doing that.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: That sounds good.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Well, thank you for being here. We appreciate
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: all you guys, whether you're here, whether you're on Instagram, Facebook, Patreon,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: if you nod on any of the stuff and you
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: want to check it out. All the links are down below.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: We've got a YouTube that we've been posting some videos
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: on More and More. We're gonna be doing a little
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: log coming up here. We're going to do some artwork.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: How's that, we'll say artwork.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: I just realized we thank our patrons at the start
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: of this episode.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Oh we didn't, did we?
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: Holy shit? Okay, let's thank them, Okay, and then we'll
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: also thank you next episode.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: We'll do that. Where's the list list is sitting right
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: here too?
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: Dang, sorry about that.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: The awesome patrons that signed up last week we have
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna butcher names because I didn't practice this
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: ahead of time. Now, Dion santy Day, Sainty Day, Dion?
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: Is it Dion or Dione?
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: I don't even have it in front of me right now.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: We're famous for butchering names, so it's just it's us.
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go with Dione. I'm going to say
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: Dione Sainte Sainty Day, Okay, yeah, Dion sty Day right, yeah, okay.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: And Clay Swanson there we go. Love that last name.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: It's very just oomph.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you so much for signing up from Patreon.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: We'll give you guys a shoutow at the beginning of
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: next episode two because we forgot to do it this
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: time for whatever reason. But uh, we appreciate you guys
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: so much. Thank you for being here, thank you for
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: being so awesome, and until next
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: Time, stay wicked.