Latest / The FAR is Lava / Ep: 6, How Risky Is Firm-Fixed Price? RFO Updates, IDIQ Protests & Fraud

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Ep: 6, How Risky Is Firm-Fixed Price? RFO Updates, IDIQ Protests & Fraud · The FAR is Lava

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the FAR is lava, where we break down federal procurement news to help you understand the FAR and the RFO.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: In today's episode, Kevin Rhodes left OFPP.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: He's gone, but never forgotten.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: Especially my favorite role.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: Congress wants agencies to explain why the jump needs diploma.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: And congrats, you're an IDIQ winner, but can you be an IDIQ miner?
0:21
SPEAKER_00: The courts will decide.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: Stop sitting on the sideline and join us on The Far is Lava.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm Ben.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: This is Will.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Let's get started.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: Episode six.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: Episode six.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: We're doing it.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Um thanks everyone for watching.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: And if you're here today watching this video, assume you're gonna like it.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: Hit the like button, hit the subscribe button.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: It means a lot to us.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: And we are now available on Apple, Spotify, anywhere you listen to your podcast.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: So you can watch here, you can listen there, you can do both at the same time, preferably.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: We're infiltrating your homes in every orifice.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: That's the plan.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh we are here in Florida.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: It's been raining nonstop for days.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: The roads are flooded.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: There could be a hurricane.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: There could be a hurricane coming to South Alabama and the panhandle of Florida.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Hashtag stay safe.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is beautiful fall weather.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, for people in DC, they're enjoying it better than us down here in Florida.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: But it's not so bad.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna get right into this day in contact history.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: Are we doing this day or this week?
1:19
SPEAKER_00: It's supposed to be this day.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: We we highlight a day in contact history.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: But because our listeners are listening at any time of the week, we can pick a day that we find the most interesting.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: And Will, I think you found a thrilling one.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: And the overwhelming feedback from our 12 listeners is that we want to keep we want to keep the history lessons going.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: So on this week, actually it's October 13th, 1994.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: So that's gonna be Tuesday.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: President Clinton on October 13th, 1994, signed the Federal Acquisition Streamlining Act.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: Huge deal.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Huge deal.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: Now, President Clinton, he did a lot of things that became public.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: A lot of a lot of notorious things.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: This is one of them.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: FAFSA.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Everyone talked about the thing he did in FASA.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Most important thing that he did.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Most notable.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: It was scandalous.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: And it launched the most comprehensive reform of federal procurement since World War II.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Happy FAFSA week.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: The legislation established a simplified acquisition threshold of a whopping 100,000, which did stay that way for quite some time.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: It replaced the previous$25,000 small purchase threshold.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: It expanded streamlined procurement procedures, reducing bureaucratic barriers.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: Much of the FAR that we know today, not even before the RFO, is the result of FAFSA.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: Like micro purchase authority.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: And uh and commercial part 12.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: It introduced concepts like greater preference for commercial off-the-shelf items, like COT.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: And incidentally, COTS themselves are COTS.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: So simplified acquisition procedures, exempt from numerous federal regulations.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: As you mentioned, micro purchase authority up to 2,500 at the time.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: It was 2,500.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: You can just swipe your card.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: The act consolidated and reformed truth and negotiations requirement.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: We were, right?
3:11
SPEAKER_01: A lot of checks.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: You can do checks.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because in the movie Clueless, she got her credit card denied.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: She was swiping cards.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: I just remember at the grocery store as a I mean, even when I was working at a grocery store, still paid cash.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: People writing checks.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: Kevin Callister uh used cash when he bought his groceries.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: So it and it created the Federal Acquisition Computer Network, Facnet.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Facnet.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm not as familiar with this one.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: You're not as familiar with FacNet because it lasted a total of three years.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: A couple years in, and people are like, this like a government-wide computer system.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: Apparently that wasn't super effective.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: They also weren't predicting something called the internet taking off.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: And so this internal computer program that was supposed to be used by all offices failed miserably.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: So you put in you put in your government ID and then it goes.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: It's one of those printers where the spoiling out, spooling up.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: So RIP, RIP facnet, but FASA lived on.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: It shifted federal procurement philosophy philosophy from lowest bid to best value contracting.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: Best value started becoming a thing, emphasizing past performance evaluation, commercial marketplace practices, and performance-based contracting sound familiar.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: In fact, there's a lot of comparisons made right now between this revolutionary far overhaul today and the FAFSA transformation that happened in '94.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like it's not revolutionizing too much.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: It's just reminding us of the things that we've been trying to do since 1994.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey guys, let's try to do FAFSA again.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: Let's make FASA.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: Can we go back to FASA?
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Which makes sense.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: The 90s style, you know, is back.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: 90s.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: 90s is back.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: FASA is back, baby.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: That's what the RFO predicted.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Ahead of the trends.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: All right.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Let's get into the news.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: And I already teased this, but our friend Kevin Rhodes, who left OFPP back in September, is now remaining on as a special, as a special government employee, an S G E.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: And he's doing so to help continue work on the FAR overhaul and the cost accounting standards reform, two big programs, and they thought some consistency in the office would be helpful.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: And uh, but he's not no longer in the same role that he has.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: He's left, but he's still there.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: He was there for about 11 months, and he was the first one for a long time in a long time in that role.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: Hold on.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: What was his role again?
5:33
SPEAKER_01: The administrator of uh the Office of Federal Procurement Policy.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: Now that is a that's Senate confirmation role.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: This person is the chairperson of the FAR council.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: So it's like one of the highest position uh in charge of well, the RFO uh in matters involving the FAR.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: So big positions, Senate confirmation, important role.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: And now the important role is obsolete.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: And Federal News Network, I believe, who is breaking this story, are saying they aren't hearing from anyone uh from OMB who is replacing him.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: It's just kind of a vacant role at the time.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: They're not getting responses.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: So a little bit of gray area of what the plan is, but he's doing this uh this job, he's still doing it from his home in Florida.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: And so he wanted to, I think he was commuting back and forth and said, No, I'm gonna I'm gonna stay in Florida.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: And they said, Well, please don't leave forever.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: And so now he's uh special.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: We're in Florida, I wonder.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: And this is allegedly, right?
6:23
SPEAKER_01: Allegedly, by the way.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: They hit part of the reason why he he uh stepped down and took an SGE role was so that he he can maintain his residency in Florida.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: He was traveling a lot.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's fine.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: I can relate to that.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're in Florida and the travel can be hard.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: So no shade.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh but some people think it's great because he has done such a good job leading.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: But then some people are concerned that now that spot's vacant, will he have the same impact that he's had before?
6:49
SPEAKER_00: And they wonder why this person is a special employee, et cetera, et cetera.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: We all want to be special.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: He seems to be an effective guy.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: Like he did a good job.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: He did a good job.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the biggest concern, which the article reflects this, is in it in a such a tumultuous time, very dynamic time with the RFO, maybe the regulations are going through the rulemaking process and the regulation piece has been accomplished or will be accomplished soon.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: But what about this behavioral change to the workforce?
7:13
SPEAKER_01: What about, you know, like we just talked about FAFSA?
7:16
SPEAKER_01: Did FASA was FASA really accomplished workforce-wise the way it was?
7:20
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of undetermined things right now.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of transformation happening, and we don't have a Senate confirmed administrator of OFPP.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: That's uh that's a concern.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it reminds me of Trump part one.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: There were there was a lot of shuffling around with the cabinet, uh especially the sec def.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, we had Mattis, but then we had a lot of transformations, and it was very unsettling not to have a Senate confirmed sec def or some kind of temporary secretary of defense.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: You want someone stable in that role.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: This is the concern uh here.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: And it is true that so the SGE that happens a lot when you have really good people who um really uh the the terms of government employment just don't maybe work for their situation.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh a lot of it's of course personal.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's the case with with Rhodes that he he has he needs to be with his family in Florida.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: So one way the government can st you know still get the service is like we really need you to help us.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: Why don't we do a special government employee where we're still getting the benefit of you, but you you don't need to be as present.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the and the disadvantage of that could be like what they said, it is the is an SGE gonna have the same influence that a Senate confirmed administrator of OFPP will have.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: You have to navigate a lot of relationships here with with the senior procurement executives of all the agencies.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: Are they gonna are they gonna listen to an SGE um or are they gonna listen to a is there gonna be a temporary?
8:48
SPEAKER_00: So far, the so far uh there's no word of a temporary uh replacement.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: So I'd like OFPP to know that my hat is in the ring.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I will I've I've been trying to apply.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: What are what are your top uh your goals starting, your first 100 days?
9:03
SPEAKER_00: Uh yes.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh we're gonna go back to the old FAR.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: Get rid of the uh the overhaul.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: Because I can make that change fast.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Think of how quickly I can make that change.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: Anything that's come out since, just forget it and go right back.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: So it would be a huge change faster than they've done the work.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh those are wild times.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna go back to Facnet?
9:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Facnet.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna implement Facnet.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna shut down well, because of AI, we need to now limit some of the controls.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: And why did a way to do that is have an in-house computer system that is not connected to the internet.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: Fax machines, Facnet, no RFO.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: All right.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: That's my uh that's my interview.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: You heard it here, folks.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: Get your votes in for Ben Bunting.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: And it's not that I I love everything about the RFO, but it just just the fact that I could change it to a ton of do a ton of work really fast and not have to do any work after the fact.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: You know what you should do as as your first step as an OFP administrator, make it a one-page FAR.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: Call it the even more revolutionary FAR overhaul.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: And then make it one page.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: The one page is even more common sense of procurement.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just leave it at that.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh make contracts good.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: Be responsible.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Use common sense.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh, man.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, speaking of common sense, let's get to our next story.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: The Senate has passed the skills-based Federal Contracting Act, which uh basically means the agencies would stop automatically requiring education credentials for contractor personnel.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: Basically, if you're gonna hire if a contractor is gonna bring on some people onto a contract, the government agencies can't require a four-year degree.
10:36
unknown: Okay.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: Just blanketly.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: They can now, for special requirements, they can do some written justifications tied to it, which I'm sure a lot of people will, uh, but they just don't blanket say you gotta have a four-year degree.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: And uh the example they gave of why this is so helpful is uh a bill back in January 2024, IBM testimony that the contractors rarely could staff technology services uh service contractors with people lacking four-year degrees.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: Essentially, especially in IT, there's great people out there without four-year degrees.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: They can't find enough people to staff all these all these contract uh all these contracts, and said, let's just get rid of it and let's make it easy for the middleman and the middle managers and blue-collar people to get jobs.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: So this this was passed by the Senate unanimously.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh presidential sort of thing.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: We're waiting for Trump.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, waiting for Trump.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: Trump to get his Sharpie out on this one, okay.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, you know what's what so this is clear focus on um getting the contract force to think about the skill, not so much the education, right?
11:35
SPEAKER_01: Like what and and again, it follows the principle and the RFO about what are we really trying to get?
11:40
SPEAKER_01: What's gonna satisfy the mission?
11:41
SPEAKER_01: Are we getting superior performance?
11:43
SPEAKER_01: And does it really matter what these other things that are distracting if we're if we're getting a person who didn't have a four-year degree but's gonna do an awesome job for America?
11:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's funny too, is the other uh side of this coin are uh, and this is in the far as well, is when you have highly educated young people who don't have experience in in working that particular job, but they're fresh out of college, you can restrict them as well.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: And so I've I've seen it go the other way as well, where you have people who do have really good education, but you're saying in order to um in order to work on this contract, you had you had to have performed four years at least on this.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: They're barred out too.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: So the restriction, over restriction can go both ways, where you're you're you're asking for education when you shouldn't, or you're asking for experience when you shouldn't.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Is that the real way to find out if the person is gonna have the right skill on the job?
12:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, agencies weren't required to ask for four-year degrees, right?
12:39
SPEAKER_00: So that's what I thought.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: It's funny, this is a unanimous vote.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: Everyone's like, this is a great idea.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: But there's no law requiring four-year degrees.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: So the people writing the contracts or the solicitations could just remove the requirement.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: But I guess it's a lot of copy paste.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, ah, we're just used to four-year degrees.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: It does help.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it makes the screening process easier for them.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, we don't have to think nuanced to what would make a good employee to say, well, we'll assume a good employee's four-year degrees, four years experience, and move on.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: But yes, we don't need a law here.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: We could just, you know, not require it.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: Nah, they're not.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: Contracting officers use your common sense, but then they write another law.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: It's like, all right, here's here's one example of how you should, how now you're required to use your common sense.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh, there is uh in the Air Force uh contracting, for example, a lot of a agencies do this, you'll have in service contracts a qualifications like attachment.
13:28
SPEAKER_01: And so in in like submitting your key personnel, your the resumes of your key personnel have to line up with those minimum qualification requirements.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: And they would be education, uh, years of experience, and that is the biggest area where there'd be over-restriction, unduly restrictive on the requirements.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: But that's the way.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that the to to to defend the agency for a little bit, um, that is the way that people bring in people for any job.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like that.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: How are you gonna tell if someone's skilled?
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, education and experience is pretty good, pretty good way.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: No, the rest of the world's still doing this.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: So maybe the Senate's ahead of the curve here.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: They're ahead of the times.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I don't know.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: Good on you.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: I feel like a lot of IT jobs don't require it.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: But um so good.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Good on the Senate.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully Trump gets that onto signature.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: Does we'll get a picture of him on the podcast of him signing it.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: We may ask him to do it here uh because we broke the story because someone else told us about it first, and we'll call out that article.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: There we go.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, all right.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: Real quick story on CMMC again.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Back on episode four, we talked about how um CMMC has paused implementation of CMMC phase two, uh, and it did a 60-day review.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: And it in that time, they did a lot of feedback gathering.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: Thousands of people gave feedback, even um, you know, whether it's town halls or written submissions, and the feedback was overwhelmingly positive for CMMMC pausing, pausing it.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: So they were all very happy it was paused.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: Now an article came out saying, hold on, just because it's you know, people are celebrating the pause doesn't mean that people aren't still pushing forward.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: I think it said around 75, 78% of participants that they interviewed are still pushing forward towards CMMC2, uh, or they already have it.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: So they a lot of people already have it, then the rest of everyone else is still trying to get it, is what they're saying.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: Only about 20% or less aren't pushing forward.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: So apparently people are either assuming it's valuable regardless of being required, too, they're assuming it's gonna come back at some point.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: So you might as well still push on.
15:19
unknown: Yeah.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: What I found interesting, Will, this article was produced by or written in collaboration with RedSpin, and Redspin sells CMMC assessments, consulting, and training.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: So we're not saying anything.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Guys, it's still important.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you need to know more about it.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: So they're like, hey, look, everyone else is still getting CMMC too.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: So don't the the the 20% apparently, they're like begging them, hey, come on, it's it's still cool to do it, even though you don't have to right now.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna have to eventually, they're saying.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know, you gotta read it with a grain of salt.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: Maybe Red Spin has.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh but we love Red Spin, I'm sure.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: If I understand this right, phase one and phase two are things that the I think this is right, that the company does themselves.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: So this is what is it again?
16:01
SPEAKER_01: Cost, uh I'm sorry, cybersecurity, maturation, maturity, maturity, model, yeah.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, certification.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: And so this is just handling sensitive government information.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: I I think the thing, uh we've mentioned this with the CMMC before in the past.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: It's very um this is a very important thing.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: So it's not like these things need to go away.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh the question is how burdensome is this on not only the primes, but we'll talk about here in a second, the subcontractors is why this the percentages I think are a little higher.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: Because the prime the government may be saying one thing, primes may be uh saying giving a different message to the subs.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: But I think phase one is you're just asserting that you have a good system in place to handle information.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: Phase two is a little bit more complicated.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: Like you gotta have this process, you gotta, you know, you gotta show or at least a test and check that you you're doing these things.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: When you get into the upper phases, you're now having a third-party auditor come in and check your biz.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: The thing that I thought was interesting about this is there is um, regardless of what the government is saying, the CMMC requirements trickle down to the subcontractors, and the primes are um not consistent in their um their communication to subs.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: Some primes are saying, we don't we have no idea what's going on yet, just hold off.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Some are saying go ahead and do it.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: This is very dynamic, you know.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: And then, you know.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: It says most so 10% of subcontractors said they are the the prime is pausing, but but in an almost 80%, 76% have received no communication.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like let's just uh if you're still doing it, just continue.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: We're not gonna stop you.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: So maybe that's why people are still doing it.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: They haven't heard from their prime to stop.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: This maybe is also highlighting uh that there is a bureaucracy in the government.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: What?
17:43
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: Shocking.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: I know you heard it first.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh there's also a bureaucracy with large beltway crime companies.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: No, and so it ain't so.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: So when you're dealing with uh the bureaucracy of large companies and the bureaucracy of the government and just the the poor subs, poor subcontractors.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they do no they're doing all the hard work.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh next story is the Federal Circuit resolving the split over an IDIQ award standing.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: Um the question here is after you win a multiple award IDIQ, can you protest another company's vehicle award because it reduces your chance of winning future orders?
18:20
SPEAKER_01: So you weren't an unsuccessful offerer.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: Nope.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: So there's a competition for a multiple award contract and you made it as one of the awardees, and you're still protesting.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: And the courts would say to have standing to bring a bid protest at the court, a protester must be an interested party, uh-huh.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Meaning an actual or prospective bidder whose direct economic interest would be affected by the award of the contract.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: Originally, they'd rule that you do have a standing to do that.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but recent rulings now would say that uh an awardee, so if you won, cannot be an interested party to challenge the awards because uh it can't challenge the awards of fellow IDQ awardees, reasoning that a protestor is filing a protest award must establish a substantial chance of an award, which is something an awardee cannot do.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: So you can't protest that they're hurting your chance of getting an award if you have an award.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: Is the short version of that.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Even though they could they could argue, and this is what probably what the original case is it's hurting their substantial chance of a of award for the actual orders, which is where the money's at.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: So that's the original court ruled that if you won an IDIQ, and this we've talked about IDIQs before, these multiple award IDIQs, we've compared them to like pools as opposed to open, full and open competitions like the ocean, where you're going deep sea fishing in the ocean, you can catch a whole bunch of variety of wildlife.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: With the with the pool, you are selecting who's gonna then be part of the competition, who's gonna fight for the worm.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: It's like going trout fishing at one of those like uh like a resort town, kind of like you get a little tiny pole, and there's like a hundred thousand you know, trout and they're just getting one after the other.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: Guaranteed to catch a fish.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and so this these uh I've I've I've seen a lot of crazy stuff in in my career.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: I've never been I've never actually witnessed uh an awardee of a multiple ward contract getting their IDIQ contract, but then also protesting someone else from getting in the pool.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: Getting your cake and eating it too.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: It's like, hey, why did he get in too?
20:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna have a hard time competing against this person.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: But but the damage, the reason why the court said they were an interested party is because letting that contractor in had a uh a diminution of value in the task order pool.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, but now they're saying you're not guaranteed anything more than the mandatory minimum contract amount of the opportunity to compete.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: It does not include a guaranteed level of competition.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: So they, you know, whatever minimum you get, but they're mad they're not promising competition.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: They're mad that the competition is going to be tougher for them.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: It's not grounds for protest.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: All right.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: Which again, this all kind of points to the value of an IDIQ, a multiple award IDIQ.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: It's like, let's not just have, let's bring more people in.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not just a free party, but it does go.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: People win the IDIQs, they celebrate the award when they get in these, you know, whether it's a GWAC or these multiple awards, like they celebrate and they think, oh, but the race isn't over yet.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: You still gotta get, you know, the rest.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about this.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: Like the companies will post on on LinkedIn, I just won uh, you know,$500 million IDIQ to help.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, you you didn't win anything yet, or you didn't win that value anyway, because that's gonna come out in the orders and the government may never order, especially if it's a multiple award.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: The at multiple award contracts, setting up those IDIQs was always really challenging when it came to protest.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: I had my my uh biggest arguments with lawyers with that, because if you say in your competition, if you don't give a set number of uh and you don't have to, like the the number of awardees you're gonna have, like I we anticipate five contractors.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: Then if you award to like let's say you choose four and you don't have a number, And then someone doesn't get selected and they protest and say, How come I can't be in the pool?
22:05
SPEAKER_01: The lawyer, a lot of my lawyers' answer was, just give them the contract.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: Like what it just let them in the pool.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: That's good, that's the most low risk way of handling it.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: And I'd have to argue with lawyers and be like, no, I don't want the these guys, didn't they weren't good enough to be in the pool.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: I don't want and they'd say, Well, okay, do you want to deal with this protest?
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to deal with this?
22:24
SPEAKER_01: Or do you want to just do a corrective action and let them in?
22:27
SPEAKER_00: So it reminds me, it makes me think about if you win win the opportunity to be on a dating show, and then you get mad at other contestants.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh, but I want to win the girl.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was just going to be me.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're on the show.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: You still have to compete.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: All right.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: On to the next story.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: GAO finds limited beneficial ownership information on federal awardees.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh beneficial ownership information or BOI or BOI identifies the individual who ultimately benefits from a control of a company.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: So the story we're talking about now is basically who actually owns a company.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: These are hidden people.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: Hidden people.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: So you have like let's say you have a lawnmower company.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: And it's run by a shell company, and a shell company of that shell company, and you don't actually know who owns it.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: You know who who runs it.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: You might know who the who the CEO is, but who is the actual true beneficiary?
23:17
SPEAKER_01: A lot of that happens today.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: Like if you're buying a Snickers bar, you you don't realize that, but the money go into secretly being funneled to like Tom Cruise or something?
23:28
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: To uh Scientology, probably.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: They're getting most of your chocolate money, is what you're saying.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: I think that's true.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: So I This does happen.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: The beneficial ownership, because I don't think a lot of viewers may may know what that that is or be unfamiliar with this term.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: There's ownership of a company.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: And that's like the the person who's supposed to be the president or the but then there's the beneficial.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: Who's actually making the money on this?
23:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: It reminds me kind of uh uh Unar Simsec.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: Remember the Turkish friend we had?
23:55
SPEAKER_00: How could I forget?
23:56
SPEAKER_00: He he frauded defrauded the government twice.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: He did once in 2018, but then still won another contract, the one more recently we talked about, selling American goods to the military.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: And he said, Well, how is that even possible?
24:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, if his second company he was not listed, uh potentially was not listed as the actual uh beneficiary of that company, you wouldn't know and do you wouldn't know he has any contact with it.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: So you wouldn't rule them out.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: Well it reminds me of another naughty list participant.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: Who's that?
24:22
SPEAKER_00: Latafa?
24:23
SPEAKER_01: Was that her name Latafa?
24:24
SPEAKER_01: Close.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: They're on the naughty list, we don't have to pronounce her name correctly.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: She used fake companies to submit in a way.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: She became a well, I mean, it wasn't beneficiary ownership, I guess.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: But that's still not good.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: The story, though, is uh as contracting professionals, we need to pay attention if we can try to figure out who actually owns these companies, and maybe there's something to that because you could get yourself in some trouble uh or helping someone defraud.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And uh we'll do a quick naughty list of the week because we have some two Florida residents that are not us, just so you're aware, it's not us.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: But uh this week's naughty list is brought to you by Carol Felipe and Tamara Quincutis in a$93 million Medicare fraud scheme.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: It's not technically procurement, but I want to bring them up because again, they were never listed as the buoy or beneficial uh of interest, uh whatever that was called.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: And uh so they didn't know that they're the true owners and they were funneling the money.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: So they were making up fake companies, making up fake healthcare services they were providing that and the money was secretly going to them, even down to the all the cash was being laundered and through uh ATMs in Miami.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: More than 93 million in Medicare bills for home health therapy.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: What is that?
25:35
SPEAKER_00: You're going home and doing services.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: And so they were doing service.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: They were filing services that were never done, probably on homes that didn't exist, that kind of thing.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: And so the story here is we need to, you know, the GAO is trying to find out what they can do and what information can be helpful to find out who these people are.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: What is the true beneficiary of a company?
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of it is just going outside of the country potentially to uh criminal organizations.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: There's a story about Russia getting a bunch of money because of this.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: So uh it might be something that uh we should look to resolve.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: Me and you.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: And even though this isn't a contract-specific one, it is showing that there's multiple ways that people can very creatively uh defraud uh and uh the government and get taxpayer dollars.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: This also, you know, as our naughty list shows on the past, it also shows this there's a big drive right now to change the way we're doing contracting to be more efficient, to, you know, to award to contractors without all of these like unnecessary rules that just get in the way.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: And these but this shows that if we let up too much on that side of it, on the diligence to make sure we're following lawfully, there are very creative people out there who will absolutely take advantage of taxpayer dollars.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: A lot of hardworking Americans that are also criminals, a lot of hardworking Americans.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: So there's a reason for the compliance, yeah, you know, and that's what the RFO is not saying we disregard that entirely uh because there's bad actors out there.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: All right.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, speaking of the RFO, one one second on the on the are we putting both of their pictures up and Tamara and Tamara.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: They're like a they're a Bonnie and Clyde situation.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: All right, so they're on there together.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the naughty list.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: And when you're on the naughty list, you naughty list, you never come off.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: You're on there permanently.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: You get a free uh forget.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: You do get a free my first far every time you get into the naughty list.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: So Carol and Tamara, if you have one phone call that you you can make from prison, make it to us and get your my first far delivery within two weeks.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: All right.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: Speaking of the RFO, like two minutes ago, uh, we have a protest of the week that has a little bit of RFO in there.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: People, you know, HHS using some new regulations or new updates and guidance.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh Will, why don't you walk us through the protest of the week brought to you by the Acacia Center for Justice?
27:48
SPEAKER_00: A great program.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: This it was canceled by Trump at one point this year.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh the hold on, yeah.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: The this is in the matter of Acacia Center for Justice.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: I will say before we get into this protest, I think to date, this is the best protest on the RFO.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: So uh we we talked about how RFO protests are protests centered on RFO are going to become more and more prevalent.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: So far, this is an incredibly good use case on the RFO.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so when you say best, you just mean a great use case of examining the RFO, the legitimacy of it, how it's upheld, how people view it.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: A really good example of an agency who actually used RFO principles that weren't available in the old FAR.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: And that became a the basis for the protest and the basis for dismissing the protest.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: HHS came out strong on this one.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: So this was HHS.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: Um okay.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: So uh the Acacia Center for Justice is protesting.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh they are the incumbent as well.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: This was issued by the Department of Health and Human Services under the Office of Refugee Resettlement for legal services of unaccompanied alien children or UACs.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: So this is uh on-demand legal services to help unaccompanied alien children who are the victims of trafficking, sometimes uh sex trafficking, uh, and giving them the right type of legal representation so they can have the necessary visa.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Huge mission.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is a huge mission.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's situations where children as young as one are asked to complete paperwork.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah and they have no legal legal, they have no representation.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Physical ability, no representation, and but the you know, the judge will say, look, well, they need to turn in this paperwork.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: They're unaccompanied, which means their parents are not around, right?
29:27
SPEAKER_00: No support and no ability to file paperwork.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: And so there it is a it's a huge mission, it's very important.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: This is the this is one one of the first points on this is the importance of getting the mission right.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, this is a really big mission.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: We need to make sure that that legal representation is there for those accompanied children for the mission of the Office of Refugee Resettlement.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: So big mission, and this is a very clear example of how the contracting process itself, uh, fueled by the RFO can help make that mission uh more efficient, make sure we're spending the money the right way.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: So uh what we're talking about here, this is what what led to sort of the RFO discussion coming up, is the services themselves are on-demand legal services.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: You you can't really predict the docket of these things.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: How many cases were there?
30:14
SPEAKER_01: Like 24,000 current cases.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, current.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: But there were instances of like 126,000 hearings, just a ton of these uh cases that really come up on demand, like ad hoc.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: And so you're saying it's too broad.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: 126,000 plus children covered by its interpretation, potentially.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: So so the the main point of this case really comes down to contractor risk.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: And this is where it goes into contract types.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: So with this type of performance, you're talking about the contractor needing to on-demand.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: It's not like they have a whole Excel schedule.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: It's like on November 2nd, I'm gonna visit this child.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: We don't know when.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: There's hundreds of thousands of cases or uh tens of thousands of cases at least.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: And uh the contractor bears the risk in a lot of ways of making sure they're meeting the the on-demand services.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: And so it really comes down to what's the contract type to make sure that the that the government, that the contractor is being paid the right way for this and we're paying the right amount of money.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: And these are lawyers who typically work either on a very expensive per hour basis, and that's where I'll do the work and tell exactly how much you owe.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or on retainer, which means you're gonna overpay to keep me on retainer.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: And so that's what a lawyer would be used to, because again, they don't know how much work they're gonna have to do, and also they want to make as much money as they can for as little work as they can, nothing wrong with that per se.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: But then when you're in a program like this and HHS has to budget, they can't just open up their pocketbooks and say, like, well, we'll just overprice every child, like all 26, 24,000 existing and 126,000 more, we'll just say, well, let's put every child on a retainer, which is a fixed price.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: So if we fixed price it, you run the risk of just wasting a lot of money.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: But if you do a time and materials, then you can lower the incentive.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: Time and materials is basically, you know, like when you bring a contractor over to renovate your kitchen and it's it's almost like time and materials like, well, can we do this too?
32:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, it'll cost you, or it'll be another two weeks.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was gonna have a contractor come and we had IKEA cabinets, and IKEA could do it, or these guys could do it.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I called like my my uh guy I used for the house once in a while, and he's like, Yeah, we'll do it.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: We'll just charge, you know, so much an hour to unpack the boxes and put the cabinets together.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I've seen them move.
32:29
unknown: Right.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: They don't like the speed at which they open a box terrified me.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I'll just pay someone a a fixed price for all 2,000 bucks, whatever to put it together.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: Because I've seen how fast they move.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: And because the risk on fixed price is is squarely on the contractor, they have to inflate that price to make sure that they're controlling their risk.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Time and materials, on the other hand, it's not only uh it doesn't incentivize maybe efficiency for the contractor, but they're incredibly difficult to administrate for contracting offices because you're you're getting down to the the hours and the materials.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: So it seems like just one point on this as well the protester is the incumbent.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: So the protester has been doing this.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: And if you read between the lines, I'm just guessing, the arrangement in the past with the incumbent is not has not been working out very well with HHS.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: And and I think it says from the case, they have been trying both approaches, a time and materials to meet the demands or a fixed price.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: So this comes up a lot.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, this was a big challenge with us when we, especially when we're using commercial, where cost reimbursement you couldn't even, you couldn't do if you're doing commercial.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: These are commercial services, I'm sure.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: You had to figure we had to figure out ways of doing things like travel.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: Like we don't know when the contractor is going to travel.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: I think travel is included in these, going out and talking to or uh uh working with these unaccompanied uh uh children.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: So how do you deal with it?
33:50
SPEAKER_01: And we had we had to come up with creative ways of either doing a time and a materials or or uh fixed price or travel cleansing, just follow the federal travel regulations.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: But it was tough.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: Um so they hand they use the RFO, this is the reason why we want to bring up this case, to come up with a new uh contract type.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: And that that approach and them using the RFO, and that contract type, it's called uh fixed price unit price, was a suggestion from the Far Companion.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: So it's in the guidance.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: They used it as an example for cloud computing.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: We can talk about that in a minute.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: But that but their selection of doing that, the contractor did not like because it did shift the risk.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: This is really about protesting because of the risk.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, so they they did this is a pre-award protest.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: They pre-award protested twice already.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: And had I, you know, credit to the HHS, they did corrective action both times.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, the courts don't say this.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if this is uh evidence that can come in for their consideration.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: But when an agency does corrective action on a pre-award protest, to me that kind of shows they're already, they're looking at the protest, they're considering it, they're saying, Oh, you're right, we'll we'll do corrective action and change it.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, that kind of shows already the agency's not operating at an arbitrary, capricious, or abusive discretion level.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: But it was one pre-award protest too far because the, I think it was the third time's a charm, uh, the agency said, nah, let's we're taking this to the GAO.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: We're not we're not doing this.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: So what they did was uh a best value trade-off.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: And it did say in the it did say in the protest that it did a combination of 12 and 15.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: So again, we're in the RFO and the RFO, now part 12 is its own ordering procedures, but because it reached over their uh a nine million, they combined the two.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: Um and so they decided to use this um this fixed price unit price.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: I think in the Far Companion, this fixed price unit price was uh maybe the use case was like cloud services, for example.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: It's anything that requires this on demand where you are uh in danger of overpaying if you just do um a fixed price, but you don't want to make it like a whole complicated thing with time and materials.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: But it is like a consumption-based type uh of uh cost type uh or contract type.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're worried about hourly billing not encouraging efficiency and fixed price approach is paying out millions of dollars that may not have received services.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: So avoiding those two.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: And and part of the protest with uh what's their name again?
36:20
SPEAKER_01: Acacia Center is you're gonna require us.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: So part of part of the protest was we're not gonna invoice, or part of the uh solicitation was we are not gonna invoice you until you get the job done.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: Which could take years.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: Which could take years.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: So they're not getting any money until the final ruling.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: Until the final ruling that the child gets the visa.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: Which they goes through the DHS process, right?
36:43
SPEAKER_01: Or goes through this whole process.
36:45
SPEAKER_01: And that in and of it in and of itself, to just defend Acacia, that does seem unfair.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: If you're if you're doing like 20,000 of these, and then you're not gonna get paid until you get a visa for each one, then that that does seem unfair.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: I I look at all the billboards out there.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: We win when you win.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: It's like the lawyers like that's their strategy.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, look, you lose, we don't win, or we don't get paid.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: They were doing like a contingency thing.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: So uh, but the the HHS rightly argued that's exactly why we did an FFUP, fixed price unit price.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: Because if this was fixed price, then and then we we withheld that uh until you actually did the thing and then we we give it to you, then then um then yeah, you're right.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: Then then we would withhold payment.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: But what they actually set this up as is they they put it in phases to where there was like a two-part process for the visas.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: So first they established that they put the paperwork in or something for the visa, and then they get paid.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: And that's again, thanks to this fixed price unit price thing.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: And then they'll get paid if the visa is processed or something.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: So they did it in increments, and this is exactly the the purpose that's articulated by in the uh in the far companion for a fixed price unit price is that you're just paying for things that you're getting.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a great example of outcome-based contracting, is you're just paying for outcomes.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: You're not paying too much, you're not paying too little, you're you're gonna get you're gonna get paid as you accomplish things and this very on-demand, highly kind of volatile consumption-based services that you're doing.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: It's a perfect application of of uh the RFO FAR companion.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: I also love that the FAR Companion used it for things like almost utility type things like cloud.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh, HHS said, well, we can also use this for on-demand legal services that we don't know.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: I think they perfectly applied it.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh, so hats off to HHS.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we should do an agency of the week.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: We just did.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: Health and Human Services is our agency of the week for properly using, uh properly using the discretion allowed to them by part 16, where contracting officers now have the discretion to come up with a new type.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: They don't have to choose time and materials or fixed price, uh fixed price.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: They can come up with a new type, and then they also properly resorted to guidance where there was this suggested way of doing things.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: They used it for a different set of circumstances, but they made it fit perfectly to the situation.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: And Etta, once again, made the right call.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: We heart Edda.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna we're gonna have a poster, I think, next time.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, we want to get Edda on the show.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: This is our goal.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: Etta, if you're out there and you're watching, if you if you're one of the dozens watching, uh please come and be on our show.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: But she she confirmed that this was completely proper.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh what do you think about this though?
39:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh this is one one comment about this.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: This is a level of risk, even the way this is set up.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: This is the what base edit basically said is the government's completely fine to have the contractors accept this amount of risk.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: As long as it's detailed ahead of time.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: As long as they say it up front.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: What do you think about this level of risk for the contractors?
39:58
SPEAKER_01: Like is this too burdensome on these companies to meet this demand?
40:03
SPEAKER_01: Or is it just too burdensome on the incumbent and a better company is going to come and meet the demand?
40:07
SPEAKER_00: It's it definitely feels more risky when you've done it a different way originally.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: You got paid more and you got paid more often for the same amount or less work or more.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, so then it's like, well, now all of a sudden you got to do as much work, get paid much later.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: And so if you're already doing it, it would hurt worse.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: But then if you have, you know, if you were trying to compete for this, you probably would, hey, look, it's you know, the money's good.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: We can hold out for a while.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: No one's usually crying over lawyers too much, but these, you know, this is a nonprofit here.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: This is a great program.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: So uh it is a lot of risk for them.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: But I think there'd be other, as long as there's other companies out there willing to take it on.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm guessing there are.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, one interesting thing um that uh I did notice is there was a requirement that they they protested this.
40:46
SPEAKER_01: They called it unduly restrictive.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: There was a requirement, I don't know if you you saw this in here, that they had to show up at every single hearing for every child.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: And that means they have to show up 129,000 times.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, someone's gotta hold their hands and walk with them.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: They can't cross the streets alone by themselves.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: And if they didn't, they said that would be a material breach of contract or they would a material nonconformity of the contract requirements.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: The court did say, and the agency did defend that position by saying, well, that's not every you just have to ensure that someone's gonna be there.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: So if the child already has private representation or the child declines, then you don't have to show up.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: But then, but then acacia showed the situation where out of the hundred and whatever that, you know, a very small percentage have private representation.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, where the where would the private representation come from?
41:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I forgot what the percentage was there.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: There's a little bit larger amount of the children who decline it, but it's still so small.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: So there is still a risk that the companies would be taking on when offering that there is a real possibility that they would have to show up at out of those 129,000, at most of those, are they ready to do that?
41:59
SPEAKER_01: So again, this case all comes down to this idea of risk.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: And this is a really great case for the viewers out there to show that the contract type really dictates who's gonna take on that risk.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: HHS changed the contract type a little bit, and that's why we have a protest from the incumbent because changing the contract type means that you're changing the risk on the contractor, and that's a big deal.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: If we have an agency of the week, should we have like a bad agency of the week and call out some some bad contract contract offices?
42:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go ahead.
42:29
SPEAKER_01: What's your what's your brought this up then?
42:32
SPEAKER_01: What's our bad agency of the week?
42:33
SPEAKER_01: Do you know our viewers?
42:34
SPEAKER_00: Do you know Steve over in the VA?
42:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm just kidding.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: All right.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, I wanted to bring up uh one last, not really a news story, but just a nice little uh article put out by a loyal listener, Allison Gregory, on LinkedIn getting contractors the reminder of asking for the receipts after uh you get a DOD award notice, whether you won or lost, requesting your debriefing quickly uh to find out all the underlying information about who why you won, what they evaluated pro or con.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: It's just good to have this stuff on record.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we'll link the article uh that she put out or the little LinkedIn article post that she put out.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: It's helpful helpful tips in there.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: So she's saying when you ask for a post-award debriefing, a lot of unsuccessful offers are not asking enough.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: Right?
43:22
SPEAKER_01: What'd you say?
43:22
SPEAKER_01: Ask for the source selection decision document.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: It may you may be you may get it back, it'll be heavily redacted, but ask.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a great point.
43:31
SPEAKER_01: I I'm not a fan of Allison?
43:33
SPEAKER_01: I yeah.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: So it's quit quit commenting Alison.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: I was kidding.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not a fan of the brief notice, of the short notice.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: I I know that helps with streamlining efficiency.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: This is just my my personal opinion, but my uh preference is always to give unsuccessful offers as much information that you can.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: Take the time to inform unsuccessful offers.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh, don't do this thing where you're waiting.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Like if you have three days, do it on Friday.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: So you you're making the c company spend their weekends going through.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: Don't be unfair.
44:08
SPEAKER_01: If you have nothing to hide, don't hide anything.
44:11
SPEAKER_01: And and your post-war debriefing, even if it is a brief, even if all you have to do is provide a brief notice, like GSA, if you're ordering from GSA, why would you prevent that type of information going to the hands of unsuccessful offers so that they know what they did wrong and they know how to do better?
44:27
SPEAKER_01: The only reasons I feel like for doing that is one, you have something to hide or you don't want to create a protest.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: And shame on you for doing that.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: Two, and probably most most likely is busy work.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: It's busy work.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: Busy work.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: Um so but there are ways of still streamlining that piece.
44:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think Allison Gregory is completely right in telling contractors to ask for information.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: The last thing we want to do is make it seem like the source selection process itself is being non-transparent, especially with information that the government should be providing, and they're not by just slapping a brief notice.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: You know?
45:01
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: You heard it.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: You heard it here first.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: And also actually from Allison Gregory first.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: Fallison second.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: Us close second.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get to some questions from listeners.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: Will, why don't you get your phone?
45:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, because we have some comments.
45:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: Um this is comments from uh past podcasts that we thought were uh interesting or funny.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get into some questions from listeners.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: But first, before we get into actual questions, Will, why don't you get your phone?
45:26
SPEAKER_00: We've had some great comments uh on previous episodes that weren't necessarily uh questions, but we want to call out comments when we get them.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: Will, why don't you give us a couple of the good comments here from last week?
45:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in a previous uh podcast where we talked about the late is late rule and how challenging it is for contractors to just make it through the gate.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: And late is no longer late.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: Late is no longer late.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: And just aside that, I I I heard one comment from a government person say, um, why would we even accept a proposal if these guys can't get it like at the deadline?
46:02
SPEAKER_01: And my answer to that is have you ever been part of any project that requires multiple reviews generation and needed to just uh and you're really you have a really good product and you're just trying to get it in the door at the time?
46:16
SPEAKER_01: I would I would give a little bit more leniency to companies.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: The ones that are submitting it right up to the time may be the ones that are taking the time to make sure it's a perfect proposal, have a little grace on that.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: I think that the that lifting up the restrictions for late is late is great.
46:31
SPEAKER_00: And you're also assuming that they had all this time.
46:33
SPEAKER_00: They may not have known about it until days prior, too.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we don't the contractors don't have access, or did they they don't they may have missed it, right?
46:40
SPEAKER_00: And so they have a couple days to do it.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: And and just also just for if for you not as familiar with the proposal process for companies, um there's a lot of review sessions, there's a lot of technical experts that come in, re-reviews.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: So the proposal preparation process is usually pretty lengthy uh and and sometimes complex when you have other subs involved.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: So keep that in mind with companies.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, so we talked about the the late is late rule when it did apply.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh Fed Sub K commented try having companies holding elevators so competitors can't drop off their proposal and watch guys sweating running boxes boxes of proposals up six flights of stairs.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: Those were the days.
47:20
SPEAKER_01: Late was late, no matter how bad you sweat.
47:23
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: So someone, someone, it's like when you're trying to move furniture in an apartment building and someone's upstairs holding, or like, yeah, you're moving it, so you're holding it to save the elevator just for yourself, and no one else can go up or down.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: That's what he's doing to other competition.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: I've never heard that before of companies just not letting others are there, they're what if two companies are racing boxes toward the toward the door where you submit and then one trips them?
47:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, this is great.
47:47
SPEAKER_01: I have heard in my law school days back when books were important and and you couldn't get as much uh online that if there was an exam on a particular book, law students would uh take the book and hide them.
47:58
SPEAKER_01: So they they would take books from the library so that other students couldn't take the books and study.
48:03
SPEAKER_01: That's nice of them.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: It's terrible.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: It's terrible, but yeah.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: Also, in response to a podcast we had where we talked about the reflecting pool.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: We watched that um video with Senator, was it Senator or House?
48:15
SPEAKER_01: Was he in the House or I think the Senate.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: Senate.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay, Senator Negusi was talking about the reflecting pool.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh Gregory uh at Gregory Gus YT commented.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: He did some research on the reflecting pool.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: This is more than a comment.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: This was a story he put on the comments.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: He said it's my understanding that the government originally Did you read the whole thing?
48:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, so I'll I'll summarize.
48:36
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Greg, for the comment.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: He did do some research on this and found out that they did go back, Department of or the Department of Interior went back to the original contractors for the reflecting pool and asked them to um, what was it?
48:51
SPEAKER_01: They asked them to do this extensive work in a short amount of time and also to make the pool, I forgot about this, American flag blue.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: So it was gonna be this really weird artificial.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, what better way to represent America than this intense artificial blue?
49:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, American flag blue.
49:10
SPEAKER_01: And the contractor came back and said, I think that they they said the timelines were really uh short, but they also said American flag blue.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: No.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: No, we're not doing that.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: We're not making it, we're not making the floor blue.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: So at Gregory Gus YT did a little bit of research on that and said that maybe the reason why blue was such so problematic was the darkness of the color attracts more algae.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: But either way, there was uh some background on why they didn't go with the incumbent contract or the contract before and why we went with this new company.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: What were they called again?
49:44
SPEAKER_01: I forgot.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: New Atlantic.
49:45
SPEAKER_01: I forget.
49:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Atlantic.
49:46
SPEAKER_00: Something Atlantic.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: Also, blue, when you if you look at pools, it's not like one solid color.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: It's usually spraying on some kind of compost.
49:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, but it's not like just a paint.
49:53
SPEAKER_00: But if it's if it's a specific blue, you have to use that paint color.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: You can't do some mixture.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what I was wondering.
49:59
SPEAKER_01: Like in in Florida.
50:01
SPEAKER_00: You don't paint your pool.
50:02
SPEAKER_01: You paint the Yeah.
50:03
SPEAKER_01: In Florida, you paint the pool, right?
50:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but then it makes it look blue.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: The water's not blue.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: Are they making the water blue?
50:10
SPEAKER_00: No.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: I think they're making the they're painting it.
50:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:12
SPEAKER_00: But again, they're not, you know, if pools don't typically just have a at least in Florida.
50:16
SPEAKER_00: It's just not paint.
50:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:17
SPEAKER_00: And so but to get a specific color, you'd have to, you couldn't just it limits, it probably limits what they could use to line the pool.
50:23
SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: This is another reason why they need to bring Florida people up there because it can smell like uh like theme park attraction uh kind of blue.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, like in in the parks where you get that chlorine smell.
50:35
SPEAKER_01: We know we're doing here in Florida.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: Perfect blue.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: Pools and healthcare fraud, we got to cover down here.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: All right.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: Let's do a real question from a listener.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: This is from an older video, Charlie Sloan 6059.
50:48
SPEAKER_00: Could you cover the BPA?
50:50
SPEAKER_00: What requests for one look like, roles, responsibilities, and contacting officers, uh, contacting contracting officers, specialists, and representatives.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: So how old is this question?
51:00
SPEAKER_01: Is this before the RFO?
51:01
SPEAKER_01: Charlie, if if Charlie Sloan 6059, if you're listening, we told you we'd answer.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: And here it is.
51:08
SPEAKER_00: He wanted a whole video.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: To be fair, I think he was looking for an entire video.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: Not just like a two-minute update here.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: But we've talked about BPAs on the channel already.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk BPAs.
51:17
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: I've been waiting for this.
51:19
SPEAKER_01: It's it's episode six, and we haven't discussed BPAs in detail.
51:24
SPEAKER_01: This is why our views aren't up.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, so a blanket purchase agreement.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh, this is really uh the difference between a blanket purchase agreement and an IDIQ is uh really important uh to talk about.
51:36
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the differences between the two.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: So, first, I'm gonna use part 12.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: This is the new RFO part 12.
51:42
SPEAKER_01: Previously, BPAs weren't in part 12, but we're gonna use the part 12 uh language for a blanket purchase agreement.
51:48
SPEAKER_01: A blanket purchase agreement, it says in uh should I give the reference just for our diligent viewers?
51:54
SPEAKER_01: It's 12.201-1E3.
52:01
SPEAKER_01: Rolled right off the tongue.
52:02
SPEAKER_01: Write that down.
52:02
SPEAKER_01: We're rolled right up the tongue.
52:04
SPEAKER_01: A blanket purchase agreement, also known as a BPA, is a method of filling anticipated repetitive needs for suppliers or services by establishing charge accounts with qualified sources of supply.
52:19
SPEAKER_01: I just think it's interesting that this has always been the definition of a BPA.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: It still seems like old archaic language.
52:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's not really what's you have these charge accounts, it says, but basically it is you do have repetitive needs, and it's a very simplified way of had setting up an agreement with a contractor uh so that you can they call it charge accounts.
52:43
SPEAKER_01: But basically what that means is the BPA is just the agreement, and then you can quickly do orders from that.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: And you can have multi-award BPAs, right?
52:50
SPEAKER_00: You can have multiple BPAs.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: So again, multi-award BPAs, multi-award IDIQs.
52:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no wonder people are so confused.
52:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, the and the other confusion is the difference between a BPA and an IDIQ.
53:02
SPEAKER_01: So a blanket purchase agreement, a BPA is an agreement, it's not a contract.
53:07
SPEAKER_01: So an IDIQ is a contract.
53:09
SPEAKER_01: When you set up an IDIQ, uh, forget the orders, you're just setting up the IDIQ.
53:14
SPEAKER_01: You're engaging in a contractual arrangement with a company.
53:17
SPEAKER_01: When you're setting up an agreement with a with a company, so that's a BPA for simplified purchases like under 12 or a BOA, a broad ordering, uh, is it broad ordering agreement?
53:29
SPEAKER_01: I think uh a basic ordering agreement or a basic agreement, you're not setting up a contract at all.
53:35
SPEAKER_01: All you're doing is setting up, they call it charge accounts for BPA, but you're just setting up the terms and conditions.
53:40
SPEAKER_01: And you're saying, here's the kind of services I think I want you to do, here's some payment instructions, here's uh, you know, it's just some general terms so that you're establishing all that.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: So when you are ready to make a contract, which is going to be your first order off of that agreement, uh, a lot of the terms are already there.
53:57
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to worry about that.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: That's a BPA.
54:00
SPEAKER_01: It used to be, it used to live just in part 13.
54:03
SPEAKER_01: You could also do it off of part eight.
54:05
SPEAKER_01: Now it's in part 12, and it's just a method of setting that agreement up, but your first order is the contract.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: It's not like an IDIQ.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: What's interesting about part 12, just a couple things about when you set your BPA up, it's got to include that statement that the supplier will furnish supplies or service, but it says described in general terms.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: So when you're setting up your BPA, you're trying to be as general as you can because the specifics are going to come out in the actual order itself.
54:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you want to have a statement that the government's obligated only to the extent authorized by the purchases.
54:38
SPEAKER_01: So the statement in the BPA is we don't owe you anything.
54:41
SPEAKER_01: This is just an agreement.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: There's no contract involved.
54:44
SPEAKER_01: The contract is offer, acceptance, consideration.
54:46
SPEAKER_01: There's none of that with a BPA.
54:48
SPEAKER_01: We're just setting up uh terms and conditions.
54:51
SPEAKER_01: That's different in an IDIQ.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh there is offer acceptance and consideration, and that consideration is usually the first order.
55:00
SPEAKER_01: So when you when you set up an IDIQ, you're you're obligating that first order.
55:06
SPEAKER_01: You have to pay the contract or something immediately.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: BPA is a date, and the IDIQ is the marriage.
55:11
SPEAKER_01: A BPA is save the date.
55:13
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
55:14
SPEAKER_01: It may happen, it may not happen.
55:16
SPEAKER_01: We'll see how things go.
55:17
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
55:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh there's a dollar limitation for each individual purpose under the BPA, but that's the it's just the um the dollar limitation for each purchase just has to go under the simplified acquisition threshold.
55:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh actually, for commercial, it's under 9 million.
55:33
SPEAKER_01: And if it's for like contingency, it's under 15.
55:36
SPEAKER_01: So you can be you can create this BPA using simplified procedures, this agreement, and then start cranking out like$8 million orders.
55:43
SPEAKER_01: And then the other stuff down, like a list of individuals authorized to place, orders, instructions for invoicing.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: So that's the reason why you'd even set up a BPA.
55:52
SPEAKER_01: Efficiency, right?
55:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we know we're gonna be cranking out these orders most likely.
55:56
SPEAKER_01: Let's go ahead and set up the terms and conditions, the payment.
55:58
SPEAKER_01: So when we do the order, uh, it'll be a lot more streamlined.
56:02
SPEAKER_01: The the trick with the BPA though is that it doesn't bypass competition.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: So it says in the thing, the existence of a BPA does not justify soliciting from only one source or avoid avoiding small business set-asides.
56:16
SPEAKER_01: So the good uh uh rule is to establish what you mentioned, uh multiple award BPAs or multiple BPAs, and you just compete off of them.
56:25
SPEAKER_01: And each one of those contractors, then they've got the terms established.
56:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're right.
56:30
SPEAKER_01: Everyone's good to go, they're locked and loaded.
56:32
SPEAKER_01: Then you you just do this, they call it uh in here.
56:35
SPEAKER_01: It's not fair opportunity with multiple award BPAs.
56:37
SPEAKER_01: It's called maximum practical, practicable competition.
56:42
SPEAKER_01: So if you can, if you have your multiple award BPAs, then you can do maximum practicable quick competition, get the order out there, get your quotes back, whoever's lowest or whatever, and then you're you're off to the races.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: At Charlie Sloan 6059, I hope that was helpful for you.
56:58
SPEAKER_00: Sorry for the delayed response.
56:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's been a while.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: All right, that's episode six.
57:02
SPEAKER_00: We're done.
57:03
SPEAKER_00: We're done.
57:04
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57:04
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57:05
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
57:06
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57:31
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57:36
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