Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 378] THE CLEAN: The Band That Changed Indie Forever with Richard Langston

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[EP 378] THE CLEAN: The Band That Changed Indie Forever with Richard Langston · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

0:00
Speaker 1: The clean were just too loud and radical when they
0:02
Speaker 1: started out four pubs, and they had the power cord
0:05
Speaker 1: pulled on them early on by one pub and they
0:08
Speaker 1: kind of angered them in some way, but in other
0:10
Speaker 1: ways it would have confirmed they were on the right path.
0:13
Speaker 1: Boring Up pulled the power cord on them and said,
0:17
Speaker 1: that's enough, boys. You're too loud, you're too wild, you're
0:20
Speaker 1: too radical, which is exactly what they wanted to be.
0:24
Speaker 1: Rock and Roll. I mean, I leave you. You're reading
0:28
Speaker 1: Little Hands says it's time.
0:29
Speaker 2: To rock and roll up Totally Booked. Welcome back to
0:39
Speaker 2: book Done Rock, the podcast for those about to read
0:41
Speaker 2: in rock Emeric Sanitch before we get started. If you'd
0:44
Speaker 2: like to support the podcast, get episodes commercial free, sign
0:48
Speaker 2: up for the backstage Pass from Patreon for just five
0:50
Speaker 2: dollars a month the link in the show notes, or
0:53
Speaker 2: you can go to book Done Rock dot com. Our
0:55
Speaker 2: guest is Richard Langston. He is the author of The
0:59
Speaker 2: clean in the Dream Life You Need a Rubber Soul.
1:02
Speaker 2: The Cleaner one of the most influential underground bands to
1:05
Speaker 2: emerge from New Zealand, helping define the Dunedin sound and
1:09
Speaker 2: then groundwork for indie rock as we know it. Richard,
1:12
Speaker 2: thank you for being here.
1:13
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me here. Great to be here.
1:16
Speaker 1: The Clean Love tour in the United States and it
1:20
Speaker 1: gave the band a seek in life, so it's great
1:22
Speaker 1: to talk to you.
1:23
Speaker 2: We were talking about that before we started recording. They
1:26
Speaker 2: did some touring here. You mentioned let's talk about the
1:29
Speaker 2: influence behind this project, because you mentioned Sam Elworthy from
1:33
Speaker 2: Auckland University Press first suggesting this book, and then it
1:37
Speaker 2: was also a comment from the band's David Kilgore that
1:42
Speaker 2: influenced your decision to finally work on the book. Tell
1:44
Speaker 2: us about that.
1:45
Speaker 1: I hired such admiration for the Clean, I was the
1:49
Speaker 1: idea of writing a book about them kind of overwhelmed
1:52
Speaker 1: me because I thought, how would you do that? It
1:55
Speaker 1: looked like a mountain to me. But gradually over the years,
2:00
Speaker 1: Sam Alworthy from AUP approached me and said you should
2:04
Speaker 1: write a book on the Clean, and then David Kilgow said, yeah,
2:09
Speaker 1: it's time write one on us. And so I had
2:13
Speaker 1: suggested to David was sort of half heartedly, I'm thinking
2:17
Speaker 1: of writing a book about Flying None and he said, no, no,
2:20
Speaker 1: write one about us, which surprised me because David the clean.
2:26
Speaker 1: You wouldn't say they marketed themselves with any kind of aggression.
2:29
Speaker 1: I mean, they just played their music. That was how
2:31
Speaker 1: they they got their audience, how they earned their reputation.
2:35
Speaker 1: So they never had a manager, they never had a publicist.
2:38
Speaker 1: They did everything themselves, and you know, they were pretty
2:41
Speaker 1: modest about what they'd achieved, and so it was really neat.
2:45
Speaker 1: When David said write one on us. It gave me
2:48
Speaker 1: a boost and a confidence. And I had done a
2:51
Speaker 1: book previously with Todd from Hoosac Press in Chicago. He
2:59
Speaker 1: had turned to fans that I'd done in the eighties
3:02
Speaker 1: on the Dunedin bands into a book called Pull Down
3:05
Speaker 1: the Shades. So I had confidence from that, and so
3:08
Speaker 1: all these things fed into the idea we should do
3:11
Speaker 1: a book, Eric, and we quickly settled on the idea
3:15
Speaker 1: of it being an oral history because we all like
3:18
Speaker 1: that form. I love that where you hear the voices
3:21
Speaker 1: of the people involved, not me trying to synthesize it
3:25
Speaker 1: and superimpose a storyline over it. You get the direct
3:29
Speaker 1: storyline and experience.
3:31
Speaker 2: You started writing this after Hamish Kilgower passed and another
3:35
Speaker 2: founding member, Peter Gutridge, passed away. You had archived interviews
3:40
Speaker 2: with both What was that process like for you to
3:42
Speaker 2: be able to reconstruct their voices essentially through previous interviews
3:46
Speaker 2: and know that you were able to get their stories
3:49
Speaker 2: before it was too late.
3:51
Speaker 1: Hamish had been a great talker throughout the Kleen's lifetime
3:57
Speaker 1: and that he he had so many ideas. He was
4:03
Speaker 1: kind of always happy to talk about the clean and
4:07
Speaker 1: his philosophy. He had quite a philosophy about music and
4:10
Speaker 1: how you should avoid you should make your music, that's
4:14
Speaker 1: the most important thing. Don't think about it as a career.
4:16
Speaker 1: It's a creative process. So staying away from the record
4:21
Speaker 1: industry was a major idea that Amish had. So he'd
4:25
Speaker 1: done a lot of interviews, and I had interviewed him
4:27
Speaker 1: several times over the years, the last time in New
4:29
Speaker 1: York in twenty fourteen when I went to the USA,
4:35
Speaker 1: So there were lots and then and Peter Gallagh's too
4:39
Speaker 1: had been a good talker. They were people with ideas,
4:42
Speaker 1: they were thinkers, so they were always quotable. And he'd
4:48
Speaker 1: done plenty of interviews, like Hamish, Peter and then David
4:53
Speaker 1: Kilgow during the process of writing the book Unearthed, or
4:59
Speaker 1: brought so much stuff to the surface, and from his
5:03
Speaker 1: archive letters, Hamish's diary, his poetry journal. So suddenly I
5:12
Speaker 1: had all this first person material, all their thoughts, what
5:21
Speaker 1: they're listening to, what Hamish was listening to, what is
5:26
Speaker 1: thinking is at any given moment. He was voluble in
5:29
Speaker 1: every sense of the word. And anyone who lived with
5:32
Speaker 1: Hamish said that he was always writing, always writing, painting, drawing.
5:39
Speaker 1: He was just endlessly creative and even and David, so
5:44
Speaker 1: I was slightly worried, Eric, you know that i'd started,
5:48
Speaker 1: Hamish had given his blessing to the book, and I
5:52
Speaker 1: was slightly worried we wouldn't have enough of his voice.
5:56
Speaker 1: But in the end we got plenty of it. You know.
6:00
Speaker 1: Here he's such a strong presence in the band, and
6:05
Speaker 1: such a strong presence in the book. And so Peter's
6:09
Speaker 1: Peter's appearance in the book is less, but he's there
6:13
Speaker 1: more or less throughout the story. So he again, he's
6:18
Speaker 1: a strong creative presence. And Peter Gutidge and David Kilgow
6:24
Speaker 1: were making music together right until the end, up until
6:27
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. Peter sort of needed music for his own
6:33
Speaker 1: mental health, and he would play these minimalist piano police
6:37
Speaker 1: pieces at David's place. He would come around, they would
6:41
Speaker 1: get stoned and Peter would start on the piano and
6:45
Speaker 1: David would accompany him on the guitar and record him.
6:49
Speaker 1: So there were great friends, even though they would have
6:51
Speaker 1: times when they were they needed just space from each other,
6:55
Speaker 1: because these are creative people, you know, so they you know,
7:00
Speaker 1: and their strong personalities with strong beliefs.
7:03
Speaker 2: Though, for those listeners and viewers who may be hearing
7:07
Speaker 2: of the Clean for the first time, how would you
7:09
Speaker 2: describe their sound and why were they so influential to
7:12
Speaker 2: the indie rock explosion that came after them.
7:15
Speaker 1: They have so many strings to their bow and that
7:19
Speaker 1: you know, they made straight garage pop. In their first single,
7:24
Speaker 1: tally Ho, they made absurdist pop with a song like
7:30
Speaker 1: beat Neck, So they were they were very They listened
7:35
Speaker 1: a lot to the garage bands. To the you know
7:39
Speaker 1: Nuggets is a bit of a sign post to their sound.
7:42
Speaker 1: And those Pebbles compilations are there too. They loved surf music,
7:51
Speaker 1: they loved drone, they loved the velvet underground, they loved
7:55
Speaker 1: you know, the the dissonance. So they could be a
8:00
Speaker 1: pop band, they could be you know, a noise. They
8:03
Speaker 1: could create great sheets of sound in a in a
8:07
Speaker 1: in a song like point that Thing Somewhere Else, which
8:11
Speaker 1: is a is a classic drone song. And I mean
8:14
Speaker 1: you'll hear lots of similar sounds and bands like Yo
8:18
Speaker 1: Latino and Pavement. So the Clean, the Fearlies that were
8:26
Speaker 1: very much akin to those US bands. I think that
8:31
Speaker 1: the Clean also had elements of the Kinks in them
8:34
Speaker 1: and the Beatles, and they were huge rolling Stones and
8:37
Speaker 1: Dylan fans. And you can hear say the rolling Stone
8:42
Speaker 1: kind of sway and something like anything could Happen that,
8:46
Speaker 1: which was another very strong song from their very early
8:51
Speaker 1: days there. They were incredible eric in that they wrote
8:56
Speaker 1: what would become that kind of anthemic songs. Between nineteen
9:01
Speaker 1: seventy eight and nineteen eighty two they had this well,
9:05
Speaker 1: they had difficulties in that period as well, but they
9:08
Speaker 1: they while they tried to settle on the right combination
9:12
Speaker 1: of a band, but they had written these great songs
9:16
Speaker 1: so young. You know, David was KELGW was like seventeen,
9:20
Speaker 1: Hamish was twenty when they wrote these fabulous songs that continue.
9:27
Speaker 1: Even though the Clean were kind of left field for
9:29
Speaker 1: new Zealand music at that time. Well, they started a
9:32
Speaker 1: whole new genre. Really they they really financed Flying None,
9:37
Speaker 1: the label that many associate with the Klean, you know,
9:41
Speaker 1: until they signed to Merge in the USA. Again, Eric,
9:46
Speaker 1: you know, they were always going to sign with indie labels,
9:49
Speaker 1: you know, so they when they relations finished with Flying None,
9:54
Speaker 1: they signed with Merge because they're an independent. They liked
9:57
Speaker 1: those people, you know, So that's how they operated as
10:01
Speaker 1: a band.
10:02
Speaker 2: I was gonna ask you how different was the New
10:03
Speaker 2: Zealand scene from what was happening in America in the
10:06
Speaker 2: UK at that time because they formed they originated in
10:10
Speaker 2: Dunedin in nineteen seventy eight.
10:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, well there was a tiny pocket of of punk
10:18
Speaker 1: in New Zealand, but the Dunedin strain of punk was
10:23
Speaker 1: way different to the English strain because the dun Eden
10:29
Speaker 1: bands like The Enemy was the first punk band in
10:32
Speaker 1: Dunedin and that was Chris Knock, who many of your
10:35
Speaker 1: listeners will be aware of through his solo records, has
10:40
Speaker 1: worked with a Tall Dwarfs and Toy Love and so
10:44
Speaker 1: and they combined kind of you know, the Stooges and
10:48
Speaker 1: the Beatles. So so you know that it was very
10:52
Speaker 1: different from the English punk. Dannedan punk was never straight punk.
10:57
Speaker 1: It wasn't about social upheaval. It was about about making
11:01
Speaker 1: better music in that sense. I mean, it was a
11:04
Speaker 1: It was also a sort of noise against the boredom
11:09
Speaker 1: of life in Dunedin, you know, because it's a small,
11:12
Speaker 1: slow town and you know, it was a way of
11:16
Speaker 1: creating excitement. But the punk was different. It was a
11:22
Speaker 1: very New Zealand strain of punk, although that was in Dunedin.
11:25
Speaker 1: In Auckland, they were more copies of British punk, you
11:29
Speaker 1: know really, but yeah, more they were more fashionable. You know,
11:33
Speaker 1: we wore leather pants and sort of had the haircuts
11:36
Speaker 1: and everything, whereas the clean just did their own thing,
11:39
Speaker 1: looked their own way. They had a style that they
11:41
Speaker 1: established from the outset, which was their own style. You know.
11:45
Speaker 1: It's more more probably Rolling Stones than the sex pistols,
11:50
Speaker 1: you know.
11:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely hear the velvet underground influence in the
11:53
Speaker 2: Stone early Stones, yeah, mid sixties Stones. Yeah. Yeah. The
11:58
Speaker 2: Kilgower brothers, Hamish and Dave. What were they like as
12:00
Speaker 2: personalities and creative partners?
12:03
Speaker 1: Well, they were very strong personalities and they both believed
12:06
Speaker 1: in what they were doing. You know, they had their
12:10
Speaker 1: struggles in terms of trying to find an audience. That
12:13
Speaker 1: took them really till nineteen eighty one, so that started
12:17
Speaker 1: in seventy eight, but by eighty one they really they
12:19
Speaker 1: were white hot. I mean they would have been. They
12:22
Speaker 1: would have made a name for themselves immediately if they'd
12:24
Speaker 1: been a band in the USA, So they would have
12:28
Speaker 1: been you know, they definitely, but in a way it
12:32
Speaker 1: was an advantage that they incubated in isolation in New
12:35
Speaker 1: Zealand did their own thing because there's no real prospect
12:38
Speaker 1: of making a career here as such in terms of money.
12:43
Speaker 1: So you just got on and wrote the songs you
12:45
Speaker 1: wanted to write and the killgowns. I mean, they were
12:49
Speaker 1: very symbiotic in the way they wrote and played music
12:54
Speaker 1: and produced music. They had very similar ideas, but of
13:00
Speaker 1: course they're brothers and that gives them this unique blood
13:07
Speaker 1: kind of relation alchemy between them whereby they you know,
13:11
Speaker 1: could they could finish each other's guitar breaks or you know,
13:16
Speaker 1: they were very close and how they went about creating something. Initially,
13:21
Speaker 1: Hamish was because he'd been a kind of litgrad. He
13:26
Speaker 1: was more the writer of the lyrics although David wrote
13:29
Speaker 1: the lyrics to the first song, Tally the first song
13:32
Speaker 1: they released, Tally Ho. So, but Hamish was he was
13:37
Speaker 1: the guy who introduced David to the beat poets and
13:40
Speaker 1: all that stuff, so he was you know, and he
13:45
Speaker 1: wrote anything could Happen Haemus wrote that, and it's very
13:49
Speaker 1: Dylanesque in its language, which he you know, got to
13:53
Speaker 1: Dylan through probably Ginsburg at university. And he was a
13:58
Speaker 1: real but very symbiotic Eric And of course you know
14:03
Speaker 1: after years, over the years, you know, they could have
14:07
Speaker 1: their differences about how they were going, what they should
14:13
Speaker 1: be doing.
14:14
Speaker 3: Sibling rivalry, yeah, well rivalry and just sibling differences, you know,
14:21
Speaker 3: just they both had the same aims, but yes, they
14:25
Speaker 3: had different styles of doing it.
14:27
Speaker 1: Hamish was a bit more wild and the way he
14:30
Speaker 1: wanted in the latter part, he was a little more
14:33
Speaker 1: when I'm saying this when they when they were starting
14:36
Speaker 1: to make the latter albums and you know, in the
14:38
Speaker 1: two thousands, Hamish was more wanted to jam the songs.
14:42
Speaker 1: David was into structuring song structures more so that created
14:49
Speaker 1: tension between them, but that was only later on. Pretty much,
14:53
Speaker 1: you know, through the early the early recordings their first album,
14:59
Speaker 1: Vehicle eighty nine, Modern rock unknown country Getaway. They were
15:06
Speaker 1: you know, they were really working together really well. I
15:09
Speaker 1: mean they always had their differences. You're going to you
15:12
Speaker 1: know with band member sure, and you know, you know
15:16
Speaker 1: Robert Scott, the bass player who they got on board
15:19
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty and that helped transform them into the
15:23
Speaker 1: band they would become. Robert's a brilliant bass player.
15:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to ask about him. He comes
15:29
Speaker 2: across as an incredibly artistic and musical guy.
15:33
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, incredible. Look, you know he's he's a very
15:37
Speaker 1: modest guy, Robert, and you know he doesn't say much.
15:42
Speaker 1: But the Robert and David were played with a young
15:46
Speaker 1: drummer at the launch of our book, you know, the
15:49
Speaker 1: Clean Book. And Robert's bass playing is so propulsive, you know,
15:55
Speaker 1: you have sets a song going, and so David's got
15:59
Speaker 1: all the room to work. So and Bob became a
16:05
Speaker 1: very good songwriter himself and developed and the kill Girls
16:09
Speaker 1: were tough on Robert by their own admission, they were
16:13
Speaker 1: demanding of them. Bob was a genius in that he
16:16
Speaker 1: never took sides when the brothers were in dispute, so
16:20
Speaker 1: he was kind of like this un police officer who
16:23
Speaker 1: would step back and try and maintain the piece. And
16:27
Speaker 1: he's just so musical, Bob, And it's easy to underrate Bob.
16:31
Speaker 1: But man, the God's written thousands of songs and many
16:35
Speaker 1: of your listeners probably know The Bats, his other formidable band,
16:40
Speaker 1: you know. So yeah, so what a combination the three
16:44
Speaker 1: of them and what they could do was magic.
16:49
Speaker 2: You mentioned Flying Non label. Just get into that a
16:52
Speaker 2: little bit more. The band has been described as the
16:55
Speaker 2: most influential band to come from the Flying Non label.
16:58
Speaker 2: Give us the backstory of that label and why that's
17:01
Speaker 2: important to the clean story.
17:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it was very important. So Roger Shepherd, he
17:07
Speaker 1: was working as a record store manager and he had
17:13
Speaker 1: the idea. Sob Roger was in christ Church, which is
17:19
Speaker 1: the largest city in the South Island of New Zealand,
17:23
Speaker 1: and he thought he was seeing a lot of bands
17:27
Speaker 1: in christ Church he thought were really good and maybe
17:29
Speaker 1: should have been recorded, but they never got recorded. Bands
17:33
Speaker 1: like The Vacuum, which was Bill Doreine who's a major
17:37
Speaker 1: figure in New Zealand underground music as well. He's got
17:39
Speaker 1: a band called The Builders and Roger was a music fan.
17:44
Speaker 1: He'd missed them being recorded. And then once he saw
17:48
Speaker 1: the Enemy and the Clean, he could sense there was
17:52
Speaker 1: something coming out of Dunedin. And then he saw the
17:55
Speaker 1: Clean again in nineteen eighty one in christ Church and
18:00
Speaker 1: he was they were so white hot. Then he was
18:03
Speaker 1: just convinced they had to be recorded. So he saw
18:07
Speaker 1: them in I think it was an April eighty one
18:11
Speaker 1: player pub called the Gladstone. He was there within two weeks.
18:17
Speaker 1: He registered Flying None as a record label, specifically to
18:21
Speaker 1: sign the Clean, and because he recognized in them basically
18:26
Speaker 1: they had the qualities of a world beating band. And
18:31
Speaker 1: but even it still surprised him when their first single
18:35
Speaker 1: tally Ho, which is you know, a garage pop. It
18:38
Speaker 1: was not the kind of stuff that was played on
18:40
Speaker 1: the radio. In fact, The Klean never got played on
18:42
Speaker 1: the radio hardly at all in their early days, but
18:46
Speaker 1: it still went into the top twenty because suddenly there
18:50
Speaker 1: was this post punk audience. Suddenly the young people were dictating.
18:56
Speaker 1: Our generation was dictating what made the charts by what
19:00
Speaker 1: we bought. We weren't worried about what they were playing
19:02
Speaker 1: on the radio. It was just word of mouth. This
19:06
Speaker 1: great music was suddenly mushrooming, flowering, out of the ground,
19:12
Speaker 1: out of Dunedin and out of christ Church. And so
19:16
Speaker 1: that's why Flying None was started by Roger and then
19:19
Speaker 1: you know, it was a fantastic thing that happened, and
19:23
Speaker 1: the Clean were so popular they generated income for Flying None,
19:28
Speaker 1: which allowed Flying None to pay for other bands to
19:31
Speaker 1: be recorded released. So the Clean were massively important and
19:36
Speaker 1: they were always communal. They were a generous band who
19:40
Speaker 1: wanted others to flourish as well, and that was part
19:43
Speaker 1: of their philosophy. They were quite sort of they wanted
19:48
Speaker 1: socialist Marxists in their outlook, you know, whereby the artists
19:52
Speaker 1: should keep control of their material as much as possible,
19:56
Speaker 1: and if you're going to go to a label, make
19:58
Speaker 1: sure it's one that's symbiotic, that is, that is empathetic
20:03
Speaker 1: with your aims.
20:04
Speaker 2: Is there a good story behind that name Flying None?
20:08
Speaker 2: The television show.
20:11
Speaker 1: Well, one of the other influential figures in the whole
20:13
Speaker 1: rise of Flying Nun Doug Hood, who was who recorded
20:16
Speaker 1: many much of the Clean music. Early on he thought
20:19
Speaker 1: it was a stupid name, but it was Roger. It
20:22
Speaker 1: was just a pop culture thing, you know. The Flying
20:25
Speaker 1: None series with Sally Field a huge It was a
20:29
Speaker 1: huge hit in New Zealand, you know, so we all
20:32
Speaker 1: watched it. So when Roger named his label Flying None,
20:38
Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't think too much about it except well, yeah, okay,
20:41
Speaker 1: well it had a ring to it, you know, kind
20:44
Speaker 1: of probably weird if you hadn't watched.
20:46
Speaker 2: The progress I love it.
20:48
Speaker 1: What is a flying But it worked, you know, weird
20:54
Speaker 1: things can work.
20:56
Speaker 2: How important was Peter Gutridge in the early formation of
20:59
Speaker 2: the band and what led to his early exit? He
21:02
Speaker 2: wasn't there long.
21:03
Speaker 1: Peter was really important, and you know that would be
21:06
Speaker 1: shown and that David and Peter would be lifetime buddies
21:10
Speaker 1: with different occasional differences. David I had a copy of
21:17
Speaker 1: O'Neil Young under his arm when he was at school
21:21
Speaker 1: and Peter they were both at the same high school,
21:24
Speaker 1: and Peter had saw David with this record and introduced
21:30
Speaker 1: himself because Peter was also a huge music fan and
21:35
Speaker 1: had very firm ideas about how a band should sound,
21:39
Speaker 1: even early on. And so that was that relationship that
21:44
Speaker 1: started to Clean. It was Peter Gallaridge and David Kelger
21:49
Speaker 1: who first jammed Clean songs into existence, including one which
21:57
Speaker 1: became a kind of an anthem called I'm in Love
21:59
Speaker 1: with the Times, which Roger Shepherd later used as the
22:03
Speaker 1: title for his memoir. So they were so Peter was
22:10
Speaker 1: super important and and creative and so, but he was
22:17
Speaker 1: how can we say he was a not a rat?
22:22
Speaker 1: He might have been an erratic character early on. He
22:25
Speaker 1: certainly wasn't as committed to his bass playing as the
22:30
Speaker 1: kill Goals were to their guitar and drum playing. They
22:33
Speaker 1: wanted to. They were really obsessed with getting better, writing
22:37
Speaker 1: better songs, and Peter's attitude was maybe not the same.
22:43
Speaker 1: And so so when it actually it's stranger. They played
22:47
Speaker 1: a blindingly great gig at at a high school and
22:52
Speaker 1: Martin Phillips from the Cells organized that gig. It was
22:56
Speaker 1: a lunchtime gig and they played This was nine Paul
23:00
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, and they played this amazing gig and
23:05
Speaker 1: Peter was there, Hamish and David, and you know, within
23:09
Speaker 1: a week they kept him out of the band because
23:12
Speaker 1: they just didn't think his playing was up to it.
23:15
Speaker 2: Those days, though, the bands playing gigs at local schools,
23:19
Speaker 2: a lunchtime show, I mean, that's something they in the
23:22
Speaker 2: States they did too well.
23:24
Speaker 1: The Clean's earliest gigs were in halls, you know, because
23:28
Speaker 1: community halls that's where the whole Dunedin sound, the whole
23:33
Speaker 1: scene flourished because they were too young to go into pubs.
23:37
Speaker 1: And also the pubs, which were the main music venues
23:43
Speaker 1: at that time, really just wanted to cover bands, you know,
23:47
Speaker 1: they just wanted to you know, stayed kind of rock
23:50
Speaker 1: of the times. Well that was not what you know,
23:54
Speaker 1: what become the Flying Nun bands were about. They were
23:56
Speaker 1: about creativity, writing great songs, you know, being inspired by
24:03
Speaker 1: your heroes Lou Reed, Bob Dylan, the Stones. You know,
24:06
Speaker 1: they were not.
24:07
Speaker 2: About the influence right now.
24:10
Speaker 1: The doors huge and the seeds, the seeds, the birds
24:14
Speaker 1: that you can hear all of that in the wash,
24:16
Speaker 1: you know. So pubs were just the Klean were just
24:22
Speaker 1: too loud and radical when they started out four pubs
24:25
Speaker 1: and they had the power called pulled on them early
24:28
Speaker 1: on by one pub and you know kind of well,
24:33
Speaker 1: I guess that had two effects. That kind of angered
24:36
Speaker 1: them in some way, and you know, but in other
24:39
Speaker 1: ways it would have confirmed they were on the right path.
24:41
Speaker 2: That boring U.
24:44
Speaker 1: The power called on them and said that's enough, boys,
24:47
Speaker 1: you're too loud, you're too wild. You're too radical, which
24:49
Speaker 1: is exactly what they wanted to be, you know. You know,
24:53
Speaker 1: and now look at them, you know, you know, those
24:56
Speaker 1: those cover bands blessed them. You know, they don't have
24:59
Speaker 1: a career. Now. The Clean have continued the more they
25:04
Speaker 1: sell more records in the United States now probably than
25:07
Speaker 1: they've sold here. I mean, it's a wonderful, wonderful thing
25:11
Speaker 1: that people recognize in their music. Equality that just endures.
25:16
Speaker 1: You know, they were never fashionable. They created their own
25:20
Speaker 1: fashion here. They were melding the sixties and seventies to
25:26
Speaker 1: the energy of punk rock, you know. So and even
25:30
Speaker 1: then the music they liked from the sixties and seventies
25:32
Speaker 1: was always more left field stuff. You know. They're like
25:35
Speaker 1: a lot of psychedelia and love and all the bands
25:41
Speaker 1: that are now regarded as the classics. But maybe people
25:44
Speaker 1: at that time didn't recognize so well.
25:46
Speaker 2: I did ask about the Flying Non origins, the origin
25:50
Speaker 2: story behind that name, what's the story behind the name
25:52
Speaker 2: the Clean? Where did they get that?
25:54
Speaker 1: Well, let me quote Hamish Kelga from the book. So
25:59
Speaker 1: there was this community of people who would listen to
26:02
Speaker 1: records in Dunedin who were really influential and around around
26:07
Speaker 1: the Kilgour brothers in the early scene, and one of
26:10
Speaker 1: them was a character Jeff Rustin, who imported a lot
26:14
Speaker 1: of stuff and played stuff to the Clean like the
26:17
Speaker 1: Flaming Groovies. But the origin of the Kleen's name. Let
26:21
Speaker 1: me quote Hamosh from the book. One of the bands
26:25
Speaker 1: that Jeff had and ported was a single by the Months,
26:28
Speaker 1: and Hamish says, I heard the month I Like to
26:31
Speaker 1: be Clean single and thought, that's a kind of cool
26:34
Speaker 1: name for a band. And then there was this Hal's
26:37
Speaker 1: Angel in a movie called The Sweet Ride. This Hell's
26:40
Speaker 1: Angel had a bald head and was called mister Clean.
26:44
Speaker 1: So clearly and again it was it's a great name.
26:47
Speaker 1: I mean, it's such a good name. And you know
26:50
Speaker 1: Hamish was good like that. He had a good ear
26:52
Speaker 1: for language and and what would stick and I mean,
26:55
Speaker 1: look at the Cleaners has stuck. It's a great name.
26:58
Speaker 1: You know.
27:00
Speaker 2: Sard Langston is the author of The Clean in the
27:02
Speaker 2: Dream Life you need a Rubber Soul. By the way,
27:04
Speaker 2: that that title is a reference to it's.
27:07
Speaker 1: A letter single written by David kilgar and I love
27:12
Speaker 1: that song. And I mean the book could have had
27:16
Speaker 1: many titles. The most predictable would have been, you know
27:21
Speaker 1: Tally Hoe, you know, acknowledging their early successful single or
27:27
Speaker 1: anything could Happen, you know, probably one of the most popular.
27:31
Speaker 2: Songs, but.
27:33
Speaker 1: We didn't want that. You know, The Clean never do
27:36
Speaker 1: the obvious thing. And in discussion with the band, there
27:39
Speaker 1: was always a lot of discussion with the band about
27:41
Speaker 1: the book. It was a very symbiotic communal process. Certainly
27:45
Speaker 1: wasn't a case of me writing it, no way. It
27:48
Speaker 1: was a very communal process. And I love that song
27:54
Speaker 1: in The Dream Life You Need to Rub a Soul.
27:55
Speaker 1: It's on Mister Pop from two thousand and nine, their
27:58
Speaker 1: last album. And I mean typographically it looks fantastic on
28:04
Speaker 1: the front of the book. You know, we had a
28:05
Speaker 1: great designer, Katie Kerr, and she had a great job,
28:09
Speaker 1: and it really maximizes the fact that The Clean were
28:13
Speaker 1: an art band. The book stands out in bookshops. It
28:16
Speaker 1: just looks great. In the Dream Life You Need a
28:18
Speaker 1: Rubber Soul. It's a kind of mysterious what it could
28:22
Speaker 1: possibly mean. I mean, it might it might be a
28:25
Speaker 1: poke in the eye of the boring middle class life
28:28
Speaker 1: about how you have to compromise all the time, you know,
28:30
Speaker 1: so or any you know, and it's a magic single.
28:34
Speaker 1: And I wanted to remind people people or maybe intrigue
28:39
Speaker 1: people who didn't know the Clean's music, that you know,
28:43
Speaker 1: they were writing songs, great songs right up until the end.
28:49
Speaker 1: You know, they were across thirty five years more least
28:52
Speaker 1: and so but they're well known for their early material,
28:56
Speaker 1: and I just wanted people to be reminded that they
28:59
Speaker 1: did a lot more than those first kind of foundation songs.
29:04
Speaker 1: You know, five albums and so many great live shows.
29:08
Speaker 1: My god, a live band. As a live band, as
29:11
Speaker 1: anyone who saw them will a test, they simply took
29:15
Speaker 1: on a whole new level of creativity. And you know,
29:20
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground clearly an influence and just you know,
29:24
Speaker 1: extentporizing more like a jazz band than a rock band.
29:28
Speaker 1: You never knew where they were going to go, and
29:31
Speaker 1: sometimes neither did the bass player Robert Scott, who would
29:35
Speaker 1: hold the line of the song while the Kellgow brothers
29:38
Speaker 1: were jazzing off in all kinds of directions. I mean,
29:41
Speaker 1: David's a mercurial, creative guitar player. Hamoush also you know,
29:47
Speaker 1: a very by field drummer, and so they would create
29:51
Speaker 1: this kind of metallic magic. When they played live, I
29:55
Speaker 1: just they were just a man. They went to another level.
29:59
Speaker 1: Ere It's just glorious.
30:02
Speaker 2: Find the bookdown rock website at booked on Rock dot com.
30:06
Speaker 2: There you can find all the back episodes of the show,
30:08
Speaker 2: the latest episode in video and audio links to all
30:11
Speaker 2: of the platforms where you can listen to the podcast,
30:14
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Speaker 2: and x. Also check out the Booked on rockblog. Find
30:22
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30:25
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30:28
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30:31
Speaker 2: Rock merch. It's all at booked on Rock dot com.
30:35
Speaker 2: There is a great story in the book about a
30:37
Speaker 2: studio telling them they had no commercial potential. Then that
30:41
Speaker 2: was proven wrong with their eighty one single, tally Ho
30:44
Speaker 2: number nineteen in New Zealand, and it was it was
30:47
Speaker 2: Flying Nuns first hit. It costs just fifty dollars to record,
30:51
Speaker 2: and that's become legend. How did that song come together?
30:53
Speaker 1: Well, that was still writing it. David was still writing
30:56
Speaker 1: it right up until recorded it. He hadn't finished the
31:01
Speaker 1: lyric on the Saturday night he played at the pub.
31:04
Speaker 1: They recorded it on the Monday, and on the Saturday
31:07
Speaker 1: night he's kind of mumbling some part of the lyric
31:09
Speaker 1: because he hasn't finished it. He and Martin Phillips and
31:12
Speaker 1: the Chills worked on it and finished it for the recording.
31:16
Speaker 1: But the absolutely catchy hummable keyboard riff was written by
31:22
Speaker 1: Robert Scott on his parents' piano in Christmas nineteen eighty
31:27
Speaker 1: and they played it for the first time in February
31:30
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one at a university hop gig in Duneden,
31:36
Speaker 1: and they played it a few more times and it
31:39
Speaker 1: was kind of catchy. The audience noted it and that's
31:42
Speaker 1: why they recorded it as their first single. But it
31:46
Speaker 1: was done in classic Clean style. Fast was recorded in
31:55
Speaker 1: very little time in an unusual studio in christ Church,
31:58
Speaker 1: which is basically a guy's lounge studio, so not a
32:01
Speaker 1: flash studio by any means. I mean, the Clean knew
32:05
Speaker 1: from the outset how they wanted to sound. They recorded
32:07
Speaker 1: themselves on a two track in nineteen eighty in the
32:11
Speaker 1: summer of nineteen eighty and so they knew how to
32:16
Speaker 1: record themselves. But they thought for a single for the
32:19
Speaker 1: flying none. You know, maybe they needed to go somewhere
32:22
Speaker 1: slightly more sophisticated, but it turned out to be, you know,
32:26
Speaker 1: not exactly state of the art studio, but they still
32:30
Speaker 1: achieved a great sound. I remember at the time, Eric,
32:33
Speaker 1: because I had seen them on that Saturday night play
32:36
Speaker 1: and they were like wow, a wall of noise and
32:40
Speaker 1: pop and just fabulous. And when we got the single,
32:43
Speaker 1: I do remember thinking, oh, this isn't quite the band,
32:46
Speaker 1: I know, you know, I mean, no single can represent
32:50
Speaker 1: all sides of a band, but it just didn't have
32:54
Speaker 1: the power that you were associated The Clean with. But
32:57
Speaker 1: of course as the years have gone on, we all
33:00
Speaker 1: love it. Of course, you know, it's just a you know,
33:03
Speaker 1: if you are a fan of question Mark and the
33:05
Speaker 1: Mynsterians ninety sixtyears, you'll immediately recognize a kindred spirit, you
33:10
Speaker 1: know in that song.
33:12
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, you mentioned Martin Phillips. He's it wasn't
33:15
Speaker 2: an official core member of the Clean, but he was
33:18
Speaker 2: an important figure in their In Their Orbit and the
33:21
Speaker 2: Broader story talk about how he entered the story of
33:24
Speaker 2: the Clean and his importance.
33:26
Speaker 1: Martin organized that that gig they played at the high
33:30
Speaker 1: school he Martin was you know, he he was like
33:38
Speaker 1: the Killgows and Robert Scott and that he there was.
33:42
Speaker 1: He did not want the nine to five life. He
33:44
Speaker 1: wanted to be a successful songwriter and in a in
33:50
Speaker 1: a rock band, and he wanted to you know, initially,
33:55
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground and the Clean were massive influences on
33:58
Speaker 1: how he went about writing stuff. You know, his early
34:02
Speaker 1: songs Colleidoscope World, like the Rolling Moon, you know you
34:08
Speaker 1: can hear the birds, you know, and the Clean. The
34:11
Speaker 1: Clean was huge influence on his Martin's first big hit,
34:15
Speaker 1: really underground hit Pink Frost. That's purely the clean guitar
34:20
Speaker 1: sound he's approximating there. But he was a talent Martin
34:24
Speaker 1: from the outset, quite rebellious for a middle class boy,
34:29
Speaker 1: and he became the clean sound person and toured with
34:34
Speaker 1: them because they liked that. They liked them. I mean,
34:38
Speaker 1: David was particular mates with Martin, and they took him
34:43
Speaker 1: on a tour in nineteen eighty one when they went
34:45
Speaker 1: around the country and when they recorded Tally Hoe, so
34:49
Speaker 1: he ended up playing the keyboards on Kelly on Tally
34:52
Speaker 1: It was a kind of reward for having been the
34:55
Speaker 1: sound guy on their tour. Martin said he didn't really do,
35:00
Speaker 1: but David Kelgar said the most important thing he did
35:03
Speaker 1: was he ensured the guitar was always turned up, because
35:07
Speaker 1: David's guitar was always turned up, because inevitably the venues
35:12
Speaker 1: would turn the guitar sound down because it was so loud,
35:15
Speaker 1: so huge. But Martin was under strict instructions, do not
35:20
Speaker 1: turn the guitar down. And then you know that's a
35:23
Speaker 1: winning formula. Yes, so yeah, and they were lifelong friends,
35:28
Speaker 1: you know, Peter Galleridge, Martin Phillips and David were tight,
35:34
Speaker 1: you know.
35:34
Speaker 2: Then the book suggests that the band wrote and recorded
35:37
Speaker 2: very instinctively. It was overthinking the enemy for the clean
35:42
Speaker 2: and how important was spont to them, Well.
35:45
Speaker 1: I mean, I think they had the idea at first
35:49
Speaker 1: take best take, you know, and when they looked later
35:55
Speaker 1: on when they had made their early records, and later
35:58
Speaker 1: on they made you know, the first two EPs, the
36:03
Speaker 1: first two singles between eighty one eighty two. They then
36:10
Speaker 1: made Vehicle, a straight record and a straight pop record
36:13
Speaker 1: made at the end of a tour, which is quite
36:15
Speaker 1: a straight ahead but great record, but straight ahead like
36:18
Speaker 1: with It's Over in twenty nine minutes, brilliance like the Ramones.
36:24
Speaker 1: Then they wanted to branch out and when they looked
36:26
Speaker 1: to get other musicians into play that they got this
36:30
Speaker 1: great extemporizer, Alan Starrett, who was a multi talented, multi instrumentalist,
36:36
Speaker 1: and he could come in and play as soon as
36:40
Speaker 1: he heard what the clean were playing. So it tells
36:43
Speaker 1: you they always wanted people who didn't need structure, who
36:47
Speaker 1: could just do it on the spot, and that was
36:50
Speaker 1: their philosophy that you know, they wrote quickly, They created
36:58
Speaker 1: on the spot, so much stuff. You get Robert, David
37:02
Speaker 1: and Hamish in the same room and you will have songs.
37:07
Speaker 1: You know. That's the way it worked for most of
37:10
Speaker 1: their career. It was only in the latter part when
37:12
Speaker 1: Hamish and did have some different ideas that didn't necessarily
37:17
Speaker 1: jowl with David and about how to make the records
37:20
Speaker 1: that it became less than ideal. But otherwise it had
37:25
Speaker 1: been very much a chemical process between them that it
37:28
Speaker 1: just worked. But they were the perfect combination. Drums, bass, guitar,
37:34
Speaker 1: and then Allen comes in and ads, Hammard Dolcimer are
37:38
Speaker 1: all sorts of things. So you know again that yeah, great.
37:43
Speaker 2: You mentioned Vehicle that album came out in nineteen ninety.
37:46
Speaker 2: And what's interesting is so from the formation through they
37:52
Speaker 2: broke up in eighty two got back together in eadya
37:55
Speaker 2: were they just extended play records singles. There was no
37:58
Speaker 2: full album.
38:00
Speaker 1: No, they didn't know. They had EPs, tops and two singles.
38:04
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until they recorded a Vehicle in nineteen
38:08
Speaker 1: eighty nine at the end of their first overseas tour
38:12
Speaker 1: to the USA, the UK and Europe that they made
38:15
Speaker 1: their first full album. You know, and that's their first
38:19
Speaker 1: album vehicle.
38:21
Speaker 2: That's unusual or usual for New Zealand.
38:24
Speaker 1: Well, at that time, you know, it made sense for
38:28
Speaker 1: Flying None financially to release EPs. That was the that
38:32
Speaker 1: was the favored format of the day. Financially, it was
38:37
Speaker 1: better and I you know, I mean the clean could
38:40
Speaker 1: have easily made an album easily, I mean yeah, I mean,
38:46
Speaker 1: but it worked to make EPs, get them out, get
38:51
Speaker 1: it six songs, seven song EPs, and release them. It
38:55
Speaker 1: just worked. That's what Flying Thed based itself on in
38:58
Speaker 1: those early days. And you know, its bands all produced
39:02
Speaker 1: an EP before or a single before they made an album.
39:06
Speaker 2: Right Bootle Bootle Boodle nineteen eighty.
39:09
Speaker 1: One, Yeah, great, sounds great. Nine eighty two and getting older.
39:15
Speaker 1: The single was also nine to eighty two. That's on them,
39:18
Speaker 1: That's on a given on some days. That's just my
39:21
Speaker 1: favorite Clean song. I love that record. It's where they
39:24
Speaker 1: married the garage to Phil Specter the Symphonic. You know,
39:28
Speaker 1: it's it's got lots of sounds in it you can't explain,
39:32
Speaker 1: and that's they love dissonance. And there's Scott playing a
39:36
Speaker 1: sort of sad trumpet line into the cavern of a piano. Again,
39:40
Speaker 1: you see, that's just improvisation that they decided that trumpets
39:45
Speaker 1: sounded better played into the cavern of a piano. You know,
39:48
Speaker 1: it's typical of them.
39:50
Speaker 2: Why did the Clean breakup in eighty two just as
39:52
Speaker 2: the momentum seem to be building.
39:54
Speaker 1: I think that was largely driven by David, I think,
39:57
Speaker 1: but Hamish also. You know, they had this idea that well,
40:04
Speaker 1: they got too popular in a way, and they were
40:07
Speaker 1: they wanted to make music, but they didn't necessarily want
40:10
Speaker 1: to be publicly recognized and have people sing their lyrics
40:15
Speaker 1: when they passed them in the street, which was kind
40:17
Speaker 1: of what was happening. But there were other factors involved too.
40:23
Speaker 1: David had been he needed he says in the book
40:27
Speaker 1: he needed a break from being with Hamish, who's his
40:30
Speaker 1: older brother and kind of a father figure as well,
40:33
Speaker 1: because his own father was unwell for periods of its life.
40:39
Speaker 1: So so it was a pretty intense relationship for four years.
40:46
Speaker 1: David had left school and been in the Clean, and
40:49
Speaker 1: I think he just needed some space, and so he
40:56
Speaker 1: gets the space. They finished the Clean. Was shocked. Everybody, Oh, no,
41:00
Speaker 1: you're kidding. You know, we've lost our great band. What's happened?
41:05
Speaker 1: But in fact, over the long term we look back now,
41:09
Speaker 1: I know it was a good move because they've always
41:13
Speaker 1: it would established a pattern where they would come together, tour,
41:16
Speaker 1: make a record, and then disband again. And they did
41:19
Speaker 1: that right up until they made Mister Pop in two
41:22
Speaker 1: thousand and nine. Well made it in two thousand and
41:25
Speaker 1: seven and eight released in two thousand and nine.
41:28
Speaker 2: Interesting like psychologically it felt.
41:31
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, they just needed a break, and so they
41:35
Speaker 1: made what's a lovely, lovely home recorded record, the Great
41:40
Speaker 1: Unwish Clean Out of Our Minds it's called and it's
41:44
Speaker 1: such a good record. It's fantastic, It's got many good
41:47
Speaker 1: it's got a couple of clean songs left over, Clean
41:50
Speaker 1: songs that they recorded but left over and only the
41:52
Speaker 1: sense that hadn't recorded, and they're really terrific songs. Hold
41:55
Speaker 1: on to the Rail as one of them. It's a
41:58
Speaker 1: great song. So they made the brothers made this record
42:04
Speaker 1: as the Great Unwashed. Then they and Bob started his
42:08
Speaker 1: band the Bats and started recording EPs and then and
42:12
Speaker 1: then they made this fantastic EP called Singles as the
42:19
Speaker 1: Great Unwashed with Peter Gartridge on board. And that record
42:24
Speaker 1: is they got a lot of attention, that second record
42:27
Speaker 1: because it's really a fantastic record. It's you know, it's
42:32
Speaker 1: very spiky, and songs are great. You know, you can't
42:37
Speaker 1: find water but with no ocean Peter songs. Peter was prolific.
42:42
Speaker 1: Peter Gathereridge was prolific in that period and he was
42:45
Speaker 1: stoked that he had David and Hamish to play his songs.
42:49
Speaker 1: And they made this EP and Auckland at the end
42:51
Speaker 1: of a tour, crazy tour, which you can read about
42:54
Speaker 1: in the book and saying they often made life difficult
42:57
Speaker 1: for themselves. Those boys, you know, nothing you do of it,
43:02
Speaker 1: just fantastic stuff and that BP. Wow, yeah, many people
43:08
Speaker 1: talk about that and very hello terms. You know, I
43:10
Speaker 1: love it and played it heat.
43:15
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for checking out the Booked on Rock podcast.
43:18
Speaker 2: If you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening,
43:21
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43:23
Speaker 2: you tell a friend, a family member, share on social
43:26
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43:42
Speaker 2: the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from
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Speaker 2: episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it
43:48
Speaker 2: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
43:51
Speaker 2: to the show. Is it after they got back together
43:56
Speaker 2: from nineteen eighty eight Moving forward, when they started a
43:59
Speaker 2: game of fans in the US like New York, they
44:02
Speaker 2: became like fans knew their music deeply in New York.
44:06
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Homestead, the Homestead label in the USA, released
44:10
Speaker 1: a compilation in nineteen eighty eight of clean Songs, so
44:15
Speaker 1: you know, you could say it was almost like their
44:18
Speaker 1: first album and that it was had all the best
44:21
Speaker 1: stuff off the two EPs and the singles. So it was.
44:27
Speaker 1: It was a great compilation. So that introduced a lot
44:31
Speaker 1: of people like Yoda Tango people, Ara Kaplan and the
44:38
Speaker 1: like heard that for the first time and went, what
44:40
Speaker 1: the hell is this band? Wow? And you know Pavement,
44:45
Speaker 1: the Pavement people also heard it and no doubt, you know,
44:48
Speaker 1: guided by voices maybe they heard it too, you know.
44:51
Speaker 1: So that record was influential, and then they toured and
44:55
Speaker 1: people saw them. I always loved the quote from the
44:59
Speaker 1: Yoda He goes James McNew who saw them in New
45:03
Speaker 1: York in nineteen eighty nine, and he was so blown
45:06
Speaker 1: away by them. He said, I couldn't believe that they
45:10
Speaker 1: were actually here and playing before us. He said, it
45:13
Speaker 1: was like seeing the Easter Bunny.
45:16
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, Well, because they were mostly New Zealand and
45:22
Speaker 2: then playing, Yeah, it shows in other places other than
45:27
Speaker 2: the US started, so they start playing in the US.
45:29
Speaker 2: Lead eedies is that when they start.
45:32
Speaker 1: The first tour of the USA in nineteen eighty nine, Okay, yeah, yeah,
45:37
Speaker 1: and they played New York, Boston and yeah, yeah. People
45:44
Speaker 1: a lot of the they'd been played a lot on
45:45
Speaker 1: college radio, and also a very influential publication Forced Exposure,
45:52
Speaker 1: which was Barrn Cole Coaling, one of the writers wrote
45:56
Speaker 1: a lot about flying None and really latched onto the
46:00
Speaker 1: He loved them and he loves them to this day.
46:05
Speaker 1: He saw them at that time, he says in the book.
46:09
Speaker 1: He was against reunion shows and he wasn't going to
46:13
Speaker 1: go and see the Clean, but he said he made
46:16
Speaker 1: an exception because it wasn't really a reunion because they
46:19
Speaker 1: they were writing new songs and they you know, he'd
46:22
Speaker 1: never seen them, and he was just blown away by them.
46:25
Speaker 1: He said they were I can't remember the quote exactly,
46:27
Speaker 1: but something like he said, they were just ridiculously good.
46:31
Speaker 2: They were like heroes to the American underground scene at
46:35
Speaker 2: that time.
46:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and that's I think.
46:38
Speaker 2: I would think that's exactly what they wanted.
46:40
Speaker 1: I'm sure they would have anticipated that US audience who
46:45
Speaker 1: listening to college radio would immediately recognize the Qualitics and
46:50
Speaker 1: their music, you know, you know, the Velvets and and
46:56
Speaker 1: love West Coast psychedelia, the birds. I mean, they would
46:58
Speaker 1: have recognized those class USA sounds, you know, because that's
47:04
Speaker 1: what the kell Gars and Robert Scott had listened to
47:08
Speaker 1: a lot, although they'd listened to a lot of English
47:09
Speaker 1: music as well. Swell Maps, et cetera. You know, so
47:14
Speaker 1: the Beatles, of course so, but but I think that's why,
47:17
Speaker 1: you know, they would have recognized it, But it would
47:21
Speaker 1: have sounded different from anything I've ever heard, because it's
47:25
Speaker 1: got a very New Zealand accent about it. That music,
47:28
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's you know. For me, it was the
47:31
Speaker 1: most New Zealand music I'd heard as a park are
47:35
Speaker 1: in New Zealand. If you're Marty New Zealand, you're what
47:39
Speaker 1: you would regard as the sound of this country would
47:41
Speaker 1: be a very different thing. But for me, as a
47:43
Speaker 1: park Are growing up in New Zealand, when I saw
47:46
Speaker 1: the Clean, I thought, okay, that's that. We have this
47:49
Speaker 1: band that is ours and that is just fantastic. And
47:54
Speaker 1: those things came together and kind of made us happier
47:58
Speaker 1: to be here, to be honest, because New Zealand could
48:01
Speaker 1: be a pretty backward place in many respects. But suddenly
48:04
Speaker 1: we had this band that was just world beatingly exciting
48:08
Speaker 1: and it was the sound of us, you know that. Yeah,
48:13
Speaker 1: I still think they have quite a New Zealand accent.
48:15
Speaker 1: And of course Hamish Kelgaut would sing some of those
48:18
Speaker 1: songs like side On and they kind of mock New
48:22
Speaker 1: Zealand accent because he's that songs are kind of mocking
48:26
Speaker 1: the New Zealand's just going with the flow, just our slackness,
48:31
Speaker 1: you know, and actually, you know part of dead end,
48:35
Speaker 1: you know, just not really celebrating our culture, being a
48:39
Speaker 1: bit down on ourselves and you know, just taking the
48:42
Speaker 1: easy way, not not something about what does it say,
48:46
Speaker 1: you know, father and mother, bread and butter. It's you know,
48:49
Speaker 1: just taking the easy, boring suburban life. And that song
48:53
Speaker 1: was kicking against it. So you sang in this New
48:55
Speaker 1: Zealand accent, which I always which I always loved the book.
48:59
Speaker 2: It doesn't show away from Peter Gutridge's long struggles with addiction.
49:02
Speaker 2: There is something moving about the fact that he found
49:05
Speaker 2: a degree of recovery letter in life. He sadly passed
49:08
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen. Hamish also sadly passed in twenty twenty two.
49:13
Speaker 2: How should those two guys be remembered.
49:16
Speaker 1: I mean, for me, they should be remembered for the
49:19
Speaker 1: honesty of their expression. They expressed what it was to
49:22
Speaker 1: be human, you know, emotionally, they talked, They wrote about
49:27
Speaker 1: their fears, their loves, their difficulties. So they were artists
49:32
Speaker 1: in the true sense that they It was their human
49:37
Speaker 1: expression was really important to them. You know that you
49:41
Speaker 1: communicate a truth without being too high for lutin about it,
49:46
Speaker 1: but they you try and write a song that's honest,
49:49
Speaker 1: and that's why I think their songs will always resonate
49:52
Speaker 1: because people recognize that someone's trying to communicate to them
49:58
Speaker 1: and they're writing an honest lyric that's trying to that's
50:04
Speaker 1: talking about the human condition often. You know, Peter wrote
50:08
Speaker 1: a beautiful song called Universe of Love, one of his
50:12
Speaker 1: latter solo recordings, absolutely beautiful, and I mean Hamish you know,
50:19
Speaker 1: you know we've been in a straightforward little song like
50:21
Speaker 1: someone off vehicle. You know, it's about always trying to
50:26
Speaker 1: find someone to love. So without being really bald about it,
50:32
Speaker 1: you know, they just they were good writers who really
50:37
Speaker 1: thought long and hard about what they wanted to give
50:40
Speaker 1: a in their lyrics. So that also gives their songs,
50:45
Speaker 1: you know, longevity.
50:47
Speaker 2: Did the band effectively come to an end in twenty
50:50
Speaker 2: twenty two after Hamish's.
50:52
Speaker 1: Passed, Yeah, I mean yeah, those latter years were difficult
50:58
Speaker 1: and for them for the brothers to record anything, so yeah,
51:05
Speaker 1: I mean that but they always there was always the
51:08
Speaker 1: prospect they might do something else because that's the way
51:12
Speaker 1: they were, and you know, something might have happened. You know,
51:17
Speaker 1: they actually tried to make another record in twenty twelve
51:23
Speaker 1: during just post the earthquakes in christ Church, and I've
51:27
Speaker 1: heard some of it and you know it's you know,
51:30
Speaker 1: there's something was going on that was good, but it
51:34
Speaker 1: just didn't They didn't get it. They never completed the song.
51:38
Speaker 1: So they did have a last recording session, but it
51:40
Speaker 1: didn't quite work out. So it's never going to see
51:43
Speaker 1: the light of day. But lots of their hopefully some
51:47
Speaker 1: of their they will put out one day put out
51:49
Speaker 1: a live album, because really that should be done. I
51:52
Speaker 1: think it'd be one of the few things that would
51:55
Speaker 1: justify a double live album, and one day I hope
51:57
Speaker 1: Merge will do that, because honestly, I had the pleasure
52:02
Speaker 1: of re listening to a lot were hearing for the
52:06
Speaker 1: first time a lot of their live tapes from nineteen
52:09
Speaker 1: eighty one at the Gladston. There's one that's just you
52:12
Speaker 1: can just release it, and one of the people who
52:15
Speaker 1: interview is in the book says, yeah, eighty one they
52:17
Speaker 1: could have just released that.
52:19
Speaker 2: Was it off the soundboard soundboard recorded soundboard.
52:22
Speaker 1: It's Paul Keene, who was a great friend of theirs,
52:26
Speaker 1: recorded at the pub. That actually was They took one
52:30
Speaker 1: song off at Platypus and it was the B side
52:32
Speaker 1: of tally Ho. But the rest of it, including one song,
52:37
Speaker 1: quick Step. They did a version a quick Step and
52:39
Speaker 1: it's wow, six minutes forty three and it's just fantastic.
52:44
Speaker 1: It's a band at the height of their powers at
52:46
Speaker 1: that period. You know, one day, I hope Merche will
52:49
Speaker 1: do a live album because seriously, it should happen, you know,
52:55
Speaker 1: there's so much material. Adam Jacobs, who New York Times
52:58
Speaker 1: has just done the story on them. He recorded ten
53:02
Speaker 1: thousand concerts and some of those are Clean concerts, so
53:05
Speaker 1: they're worth hearing too. So that's that. Sorry, I can't
53:08
Speaker 1: remember the name of the site where you find them,
53:11
Speaker 1: but he he Yeah, there's lots of recordings of the
53:15
Speaker 1: Clean that are great that should be released. In my view,
53:18
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope they see the light of day
53:20
Speaker 1: because to me, you know, like I say, they added
53:24
Speaker 1: a dimension to their songs when they played live.
53:29
Speaker 2: The book Down Rock Podcast is part of the Boneless
53:32
Speaker 2: podcasting network. If you're a fan of classic rock and
53:34
Speaker 2: classic film like I am, go to Boneless dot lovable
53:38
Speaker 2: dot app to find over twenty great shows there that's
53:41
Speaker 2: Boneless down lovable dot app. Or just go to book
53:44
Speaker 2: down rock dot com the Boneless podcasting network. It is
53:48
Speaker 2: what you want to be listen with confidence. How should
53:53
Speaker 2: rock history remember the Clean?
53:56
Speaker 1: Oh well, I think Rocket three will keep remembering the Clean.
53:59
Speaker 1: Eric really do just one of those bands, and I
54:03
Speaker 1: think they'll always be discovered by people who like a
54:07
Speaker 1: certain sound, you know, and it's a classic sound if
54:10
Speaker 1: you're into it. I'm loath to use it alternative rock.
54:14
Speaker 1: It's just great music to me. But you know, if
54:18
Speaker 1: we have to pigeonhole, that's probably a reasonable one. They
54:20
Speaker 1: were definitely did their own thing from the outset, and
54:25
Speaker 1: I think that people will always recognize in them that quality,
54:30
Speaker 1: that there's just something magic about them, and they'll always appeal.
54:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this book is the definitive story now that
54:38
Speaker 2: people can go too. It's out now, The Clean and
54:41
Speaker 2: the Dream Life. You need a rubber soil. Find it
54:44
Speaker 2: wherever books are sold, the Amazon, all the usual places.
54:46
Speaker 2: Go to book down rock dot com to find your
54:48
Speaker 2: nearest independent bookstore and tell them to get a copy
54:50
Speaker 2: there as well. And people can follow you online, Richard.
54:54
Speaker 2: Where can people reach.
54:54
Speaker 1: It out online? I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook talking
54:58
Speaker 1: about the clean posting, lots of extra staff, photos of
55:01
Speaker 1: the characters who I interview, lots of extras. And I'm
55:05
Speaker 1: so grateful to Christina Ward from Feral house Man. She
55:09
Speaker 1: turned that book around in a hurry, and you know
55:12
Speaker 1: that is just I'm so grateful because the Cleen deserve
55:16
Speaker 1: to be widely read in the USA. It's where they,
55:19
Speaker 1: as I say, you got a second life. And they
55:22
Speaker 1: loved heuring there and they were just enamored with the
55:26
Speaker 1: whole rock and roll culture of the United States whenever
55:28
Speaker 1: they two were there and made many great friends and
55:31
Speaker 1: they're grateful for that.
55:33
Speaker 2: So many photos, I mean, there are a ton of
55:36
Speaker 2: photos in this book put together Barth me.
55:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and the early photos Eric and at
55:43
Speaker 1: the start of the book, you know they had their
55:45
Speaker 1: mates were all creative, you know, and they just took
55:49
Speaker 1: great photos of them. Those black and white photos. Yeah,
55:53
Speaker 1: you know, there's one where they're outside of fish and
55:57
Speaker 1: chip shop and and Eden and it's just a great
56:00
Speaker 1: it's with a broken window. Yes, yeah, the Chells bass
56:07
Speaker 1: part player Terry Moore took that photo. Yeah, and their
56:12
Speaker 1: friend Craig McNab, who he photographed them on and off
56:15
Speaker 1: for thirty odd years. He took great pictures off them.
56:19
Speaker 2: This just gives you the vibe right here the Enemy
56:21
Speaker 2: practice room gig nineteen seventy eight with Chris Moody leaning
56:25
Speaker 2: on post.
56:27
Speaker 1: Yeah.
56:28
Speaker 2: Left team is Kilgour, Miles Way and Doug Hood. But
56:31
Speaker 2: that just tells you that the scene back then, you know.
56:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you flick back a few pages here, you'll
56:36
Speaker 1: see the early black and white double page spreads that
56:40
Speaker 1: were taken. These were pictures by they make Craig McNab
56:45
Speaker 1: and he.
56:45
Speaker 2: Like, we're talking about these ones here.
56:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, look at that. I mean, that's just so cool.
56:50
Speaker 1: They've got a look there at street call. I would
56:53
Speaker 1: call it op shop.
56:55
Speaker 2: Call, you know, yeah, hanging out outside the Yeah, so.
57:00
Speaker 1: I mean a book on the clean head to look great,
57:02
Speaker 1: because they always look great as a band, and it
57:05
Speaker 1: just looks cool.
57:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're assuming cool.
57:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. So many great pictures.
57:13
Speaker 2: Richard Langston Man, this was great. Thank you so much
57:16
Speaker 2: for coming on and all the best with the book.
57:19
Speaker 2: It is out now, so people go on and get it.
57:21
Speaker 2: And this I was introduced to the Clean because of
57:24
Speaker 2: this book. Getting ready to interview, let's give them a listen.
57:27
Speaker 2: So you got a new fan, you got a new Clean.
57:30
Speaker 1: I'm stoked about that, Eric, And thanks so much for
57:33
Speaker 1: having me on. I love the Clean, I love talking
57:35
Speaker 1: about them, so thank you. That's it. It's in the books.