Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Can We Ban Laptops From Primary School?

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Can We Ban Laptops From Primary School? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families podcast.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: We're kicking off our Monday with a controversial, provocative topic
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: and a petition that.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: You can sign at the end of it if you
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: really like it.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Screens in schools in 2007, 2008, Kevin Rudd introduced the
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: education revolution.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Why?
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  Speaker 2: Because apparently every student needed to have a laptop or
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: a tablet so that they could learn better. There was
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: no evidence for it, and there are some pretty strong
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: arguments that it has not just not worked, but been
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: an absolute, catastrophic, colossal failure. Today on the podcast, an
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: interview with Danny Alachi, the founder of the National Grassroots Movement,
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: the Heads Up Alliance, and Steph Chalice, a mum of two,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: a Victorian high school teacher, and somebody who's getting right
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: on board with what this is all about. The conversation
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: about kids, screens, and the classroom is next.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Stay with us.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: This is the Happy Families podcast. So glad you could
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: join us today. Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: My name's Dr. Justin Coulson. Today, joined by Danny Elachi.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Danny's the father of five and the founder of the
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Heads Up Alliance, a national grassroots movement of families navigating
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: a tech-saturated world with their children.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Father of five, Danny. Congratulations. Are you young enough to
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: go for the record? Are you going to try and
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: meet me at six or do you think five will do?
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: No, I'll have to give you the accolades, Justin. There's
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: no way I'm going to be able to meet you
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: at six.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: I'll carry the trophy with pride.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Heads Up Alliance is a national grassroots movement of families
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: navigating a tech-saturated world with their children. And Steph Chalice,
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Steph and I met when I was speaking at Moama
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: at Chuka. In fact, Steph got me down there to
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: speak to about 400 people in, was it the local
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: RSL or something, Steph?
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: And we had such a great night.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: It was a fantastic night. Yeah, we really, really brought
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: a lot to our town, Justin.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Steph's a mum of two, a Victorian high school teacher.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: and is passionate about ensuring Australia's classrooms are the best
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: possible places for our students to learn. Okay, before the
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: podcast starts, before we talk about any of the questions
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: I have, the main thing that I want you to
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: get out of this is that in the show notes,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: there's a link to a petition. The Heads Up Alliance
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: has a petition at change.org asking Australian parents to sign,
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: agreeing that Australian parents and teachers are demanding less screen
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: time in classrooms. There are five propositions. We're going to
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: talk about them at the end of today's podcast. But
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: I want to be really clear, the whole purpose of
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: today's pod is to get you to take a couple
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: of seconds, click on the link and sign this petition, please.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: It matters so much for our children and their learning outcomes. Steph,
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: make the argument for me that Kevin Rudd's education revolution,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: bringing screens into the classroom for every student, has not
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: made our classrooms the best possible places for our students
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: to learn.
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: Well, these devices came in, Justin, in around 2008 with
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: Kevin Rudd's government, as you mentioned. We are now almost
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: 15 or more years on from that. When they came in,
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: we didn't have any evidence that they would increase our
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: learning outcomes, increase education for our students. We're now so
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: far down the track that we have that evidence and
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: it is overwhelming that it's not doing the job that
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: they promised.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Danny, we met at Kirribilli House at the Prime Minister's
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: residence in December last year. We got to catch up
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: when the brand new social media minimum age legislation was
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: enacted the very day. And Heads Up Alliance was instrumental
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: in getting that legislation into Parliament and to pass. You
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: formed in 2020 during COVID with the idea that we
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: just need to help parents not just delay social media access,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: engagement but delay the age at which kids are getting smartphones.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Based on what Steph said, you guys have created a
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: petition about screens in schools. Can you go a little
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: bit deeper? Tell me more about this petition.
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  Speaker 3: First thing I have to say is that the credit
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: for this petition has to go to the teachers in
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: our movement like Steph and many others who have obviously
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: been part of our journey over the last few years
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: but have also been saying to us very quietly in
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: the background that What about schools? What about the screens
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: in schools? And, you know, as you know, Justin, we've
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: been really busy with all these other campaigns, particularly the
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: minimum age legislation over the last few years. But once
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: that was behind us in terms of lobbying, I thought,
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: you know, maybe it is time to address this issue.
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  Speaker 3: And we formed a little subcommittee of teachers, including Steph
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: and many others, to work on this. We've been working
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: on it for the last, seven or eight months thereabouts.
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  Speaker 3: We've been consulting experts, consulting neuroscientists, psychologists. It isn't something
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: we've just revved up overnight. We've really done a lot
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: of reading. A lot of conversations have gone into this petition,
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: which is based on five principles. And we think that
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: now is actually the right time to be bringing this forward. Particularly,
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: you know, we saw the results that came out nationally
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: through NAPLAN a couple of weeks ago. You know, we
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: thought the 2025 reading results were bad and then we
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: saw the 2026 results and they've gotten even worse. So
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: the distraction that these screens are bringing into the classroom,
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  Speaker 3: I've had teachers screaming at me for the last couple
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: of years and not just the parents, but the teachers
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: as well. So I do need to make that really
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: clear that this is not just parent driven. It's parents
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: who also are teachers who know exactly what's going on
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: at the coalface.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: I'm on your side on this. I'm absolutely biased. I
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: completely agree.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: This is a good thing. And I want to talk
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: about the petition specifics shortly. But I want to talk
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: about a couple of counter arguments that people might make
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: because not everybody is as on board. And there will
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: be some people who have skepticism. And I would even
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: admit some of that skepticism is healthy. One of the
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: things that pops into my mind as I'm listening to
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  Speaker 2: what you're describing, Danny, is you can ban screens, but
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: that's not necessarily going to improve NAPLAN scores because if
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: kids aren't reading well, that has less to do with
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: what's happening in the classroom and more to do with
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: what's happening at home where the kids are going to
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: be surrounded by screens and consumed by screens all the time.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: How do you respond to that?
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  Speaker 3: Well, of course, we've been working on screens in the
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: home for years. Some of the comments we've received in
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: the last few weeks is, you know, don't ignore what's
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: happening in the home. We're like, no, absolutely not. We
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: know a lot of this starts in the home and
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: we've been working on that without any rest for six
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: or seven years. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: to improve the classroom environment as well. If I could
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: just take you back a step, we're not asking for
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: a ban on screens in the classroom. We're saying that
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: when the teacher introduces it, particularly in high school, if
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: she says, take your laptops out, then please do by
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: all means, as long as the teacher has considered why
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  Speaker 3: and what is the purpose of using a screen in
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: this particular lesson, that's absolutely fine. Not only is it fine,
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: we want that. What we don't want is the mindless,
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: open up your laptops at 9 a.m., and mediating every
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: single lesson throughout the whole day through that screen, and
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: no one's really paid any close attention to why. We
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: want to bring back the why. Now, in primary school,
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: we have taken a harder stance. We have said in
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: primary school, we don't see a need for iPads. That
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: doesn't say that the teacher can't use screens in her
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: own considered way, but we don't want one-to-one iPads in
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  Speaker 3: the hands of children We know the science tells us
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: when you learn to read, it's best done with a book,
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: a tangible tool in your hand. You know, the writing.
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  Speaker 3: So many of our high school teachers are complaining we
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: can't even read the handwriting of our high schoolers anymore.
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  Speaker 3: It's just really fallen off a cliff. We're saying we
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: need to bring back those fundamentals because without the fundamentals
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  Speaker 3: of reading and writing and basic numeracy, then everything else
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: in high school falls apart, including technology.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: After the break, I want to confront probably the biggest
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: objection to this petition, plus get into the details of
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: the petition and give everyone a chance to get on
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: board if they like the sound of it. That's next
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: on the Happy Families podcast. We're back with the Happy
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: Families podcast. Steph, listening to what Danny has just said
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: brings up what I would consider to be the biggest
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: objection of all that people might have to this idea
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: that we need to either minimize or to the degree
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: that is reasonable, eliminate access to screens, particularly in those
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: primary school years. There will be some people who say,
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: we've got personal agency. Everyone's got devices. We're flooded with
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: devices in our lives. Therefore, wouldn't it be better rather
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: than getting them out of schools? Wouldn't schools have a
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: responsibility to embrace them and teach children how to use them?
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: You're in the classroom. You're dealing with this. What's your response?
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: I think there's probably two answers to this question. In
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: terms of families expecting schools to teach digital literacy, because
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: screens are everywhere and we'll never deny that, schools probably,
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: we do have a responsibility at some point. So we
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: are all for computer labs, maybe bringing out the one-to-one
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: devices on rare occasions to teach digital skills, to teach
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: touch typing, to teach how to file a document, all
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: those sorts of things that Students will need to know
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: as they get older and older and into the workforce.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: But we've fallen into the trap of teaching all our
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: subjects through technology. And that has been one of the
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: downfalls of bringing these devices in. So that's the first point.
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: The second point that you made that could be an
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: objection where families say, well, screens are everywhere. We're using
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: them at home. Why aren't you using them at school?
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: Schools need to remember what they're for. They're for to
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: teach children how to learn. And so regardless of what
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: is happening in the rest of society, we have a
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: responsibility to teach in a way that we know works,
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: that is evidence-based. We now have the evidence that one-to-one
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: devices is not doing this. And so we need to
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: remember the job of the school and stick with that.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: I've been really fascinated by the research that shows that
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: When we do things analog, I mean, Danny, you were
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: talking about the old school. And, Steph, as I was
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: listening to you, I was thinking there is no school
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: like the old school.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Arguments for progress and keeping up with modernity. And yet,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: the best research that I've seen seems to indicate that
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: if we're learning analog, if we've got pen and paper
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: in hand, if we're holding a book rather than a
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: tablet as we consume content, we process it differently. We
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: learn better. We retain more. It seems like there is
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: not a single– to doing it the old-fashioned way and
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: nothing but drawbacks when we do it the modern way.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: So if you've been reading the research, you're in the classroom,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: you're dealing with this on a day-to-day basis, what's your
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: experience been like at the coalface?
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: I guess over the last 12 months, I've really brought
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: my screen use in my classroom back in terms of
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: my students. So... I have some year 11s who use
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: them on a very rare occasion, but all year levels
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: below that. I'm a high school teacher, I should say.
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: I don't even allow them to bring their devices to
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: class because we don't use them. I've spoken about how
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: they don't aid educational outcomes or learning outcomes. But the
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: other thing that we need to think about is how
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: much distraction they put in front of our students. So
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: there might be an app or a program that is
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: good for learning that But if we couple that with
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: the distraction that the device itself is providing to our students,
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: you really need to question whether it's worth it in
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: the first place. If we think about how we as
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: adults use our laptops and our iPads, we use them
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: to multitask. So as I was logging on to talk
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: to you this morning, Justin, I was quickly checking my
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: LinkedIn because I had a message from someone. I was
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: checking a work email. I was trying to get on
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: before you brought me up onto the screen. And that's
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: me as an adult. So a child's going to do that.
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: A child is going to open up a laptop or
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: an iPad that they use at home for gaming, for
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: social media, for whatever else. So they don't see this
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: as a learning tool. That's the first thing. They will
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: log on. They will not say this is a learning tool.
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: And then they will multitask. And the worst thing that
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: you can do for learning and retention is to multitask.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Danny, is there anything else that you've seen in the
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: evidence that convinces you that this is necessary, that we've
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: got to minimize and even where possible, eliminate the use
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: of screens in classrooms like Steph has done with her
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: high school classrooms.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: I've read recently the book written by Dr. Jared Kuhnhilva
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: talks specifically about the distractions that screens seem to be
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: bringing into the classroom. The studies are good to tell
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: us the level of distraction, but any teacher will tell
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: you that half their job these days is trying to
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: maintain the focus of the students because, you know, they've
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: got their screens open. Often they're shopping or gaming or
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: looking up goodness knows what else while they should be
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: paying attention to the teacher at the front of the class.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: And the book that I mentioned seems to suggest there
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: are studies showing that out of 60 minutes of learning,
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: 38 minutes if a screen is in front of the
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: child is spent off-task. So, you know, that alone, put
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: aside the science of learning and how we learn best
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: as humans, the fact that it's distracting, just like a
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: screen is distracting when you drive a vehicle. I mean,
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: we don't even ask for the studies. It's against the law.
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: It all makes sense to us. Of course, it's against
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: the law because you need your eyes on the road. Now,
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: a student needs his or her eyes on the teacher
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: in the classroom. Instead, we've opened up the world and
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: given them every reason to be distracted and completely off task.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: That alone would be reason enough to try to roll
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: back the screen-based classroom, in my view.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Danny and Steph, I really appreciate this conversation. You want
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: people to sign the petition. I want people to sign
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: the petition. Let's go through the five steps of the
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: petition nice and quick, and then we'll tell people where
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: they can go to sign it so that we can
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: help our kids to learn better in classrooms and have
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: better classroom environments. Steph, what are the first couple of
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: things on this petition?
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: So our first point of the five principles is no
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: one-to-one devices in primary schools. We're also calling for, I guess, books, paper,
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: pen to be the default in high schools. And when
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: one-to-one devices are used, only used very intentionally, and when
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: there is solid evidence that they improve learning outcomes. We
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: are asking for a pause on generative AI to be
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: used in classrooms, which is a whole other beast in itself,
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: until it's proven that that is aiding our students. We
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: are also asking for any school endorsed apps to be
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: proven safe and effective.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: And just before you go on, we haven't even talked
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: about AI, but on each of these things, you're highlighting
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: that you want evidence before it's implemented. And the reality
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: is for several of these things, we don't have any
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: evidence for them. Some of the most popular apps have
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: little to no evidence behind them. There's certainly no evidence
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: that using AI is going to be aiding our children's
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: learning at this point. In fact, all the evidence points
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: the other way. And even having that one-to-one screen, the
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: evidence is questionable.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: What's the last one?
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Danny, I might get you to just chime in with
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: the last one and tell us where people can go
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: to sign the petition.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: There's one more principle, and that is the restoration of
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: handwriting and reading as core principles for a primary school student.
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: That seems to have fallen by the wayside to some degree.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: We think these things will never go out of fashion.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: If they do, it would be a sad moment for
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: us as human beings. Imagine the love letter being lost
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: for all eternity. You know, I mean, how long has
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: it taken for humanity to get to this point where
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: we've got near universal literacy rates, particularly in our countries
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: in the West? And then imagine we're going to lose
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: that beautiful art in a generation or two because we're
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: just so busy typing. I think it takes something away
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: from us as people, as humans, and we're not ready
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: to give it up. We also happen to have the
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: science behind us that tells us that this is the
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: best way for learning, the best way of thinking, the
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: best way of gathering your thoughts and presenting them in
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: a way that also helps you if you wish to
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: be a learner in older grades and indeed in adulthood. So, yeah,
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: we think that's really fundamental. We need to refocus on
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: those core basics.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: Where do people go to sign this petition, Danny?
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: People can go to www.change.org forward slash pure screens, more learning.
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: We've already got tens of thousands of signatures and the
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: more we can garner, the easier it will be for
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: Steph and other teachers to take this up to the
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: premiers and to the education ministers around the country. We
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: really hope that this is going to affect at least
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: a serious conversation, if not some serious change.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: We will link to the petition in the show notes
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: for the podcast. We really want you to sign this.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Please go and have a look at it.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Every signature matters. Dani, Steph, what a treat to be
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: with you.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for spending some time with me this morning.
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: Thanks, Justin.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Justin.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast, sound and audio engineering by Justin
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Rulon from Bridge Media. M. Hammonds looks after our admin
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: and additional support. For more information about making your family happier,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: visit happyfamilies.com.au.