Latest / NO FILTER / Joe Rogan Experience _2516 - Rowan Jacobsen(MP3_160K)

Transcript

Joe Rogan Experience _2516 - Rowan Jacobsen(MP3_160K) · NO FILTER

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Go Roman Podcast check it out.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: But Joe Logan Experience Train by Day, Joe.
• 0:07
  Speaker 3: Rogan Podcast by Night, all day.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, ah bruh, very nice to meet you man, you too, Thanks,
• 0:15
  thank you, and thanks for doing this work because you
• 0:18
  want to talk about a subject that's confused so many people.
• 0:21
  Is the son good for you? Is the son killing you?
• 0:24
  Why does it give you vitamin deve? It's bad for you?
• 0:27
  Why why do people get skin cancer if it's good
• 0:29
  for you?
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's super complicated and the messaging has not sort
• 0:34
  of admitted that, and that was, yeah, a big impetus
• 0:36
  for the book.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: When what was your opinion of son exposure before you
• 0:41
  started writing this?
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: So I had, you know, I had inherited the conventional
• 0:46
  wisdom from the institutions that it was really bad. At
• 0:50
  the same time, I will admit that my instincts were
• 0:54
  that maybe it wasn't as bad as they were leading
• 0:57
  me to believe, because whenever I was in the sun
• 1:00
  good and I live in Vermont at by the time
• 1:03
  winter was reaching like month six, I felt bad, right, right,
• 1:07
  So it's like there's more here than we're being told.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my wife's opinion. It's like sun can't
• 1:13
  be bad. It always feels good when you go out there.
• 1:15
  I'm like, oh no, it's a little more complicated than that,
• 1:19
  but that is a the instinct, like it feels great
• 1:21
  when you're in the sun. Like it's like your body
• 1:24
  wants it.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Your body wants it.
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: I mean, we now know that it literally triggers the
• 1:29
  release of opiates in the brain sunlight. So yeah, your
• 1:32
  body wants it, and your body rewards you when you
• 1:34
  get it.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: So what is the issue. Well, well, let's go back
• 1:37
  to the beginning. So you have this idea that sun
• 1:40
  exposure is probably giving people cancer and sunscreen is good.
• 1:44
  You need more sunscreens stand out of the sun's. So
• 1:47
  when you started going into the research, what made you
• 1:50
  shift your opinion?
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: So it really started for me like seven or eight
• 1:54
  years ago. I was on this like science journalism fellowship.
• 1:57
  So I was just doing research and some of the
• 2:00
  studies hit the one about opiate release in the brain.
• 2:03
  Other studies showing that when light hits skin, cognition actually improves,
• 2:09
  like your metabolism cranks up a little bit when the
• 2:13
  body feels sunlight coming in. And I thought that's interesting,
• 2:18
  that's all good stuff. Then I came across a couple
• 2:21
  other studies that seem to indicate that sunlight and lower
• 2:25
  blood pressure, which was really interesting. So then you know,
• 2:27
  I still had the sense sunlight bad, right, So then
• 2:31
  I remember just like googling, like, so how much does
• 2:34
  sunlight like shorten your life span? And like the punchline
• 2:38
  is sunlight seems to extend your lifespan. So when I
• 2:42
  hit that, I was like, why are we not hearing this?
• 2:45
  So that was the beginning.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: And so then so what is the problem. What is
• 2:51
  the issue with sunlight? Like when you think about skin cancer,
• 2:55
  what are the confounding factors that lead to skin cancer?
• 2:58
  Are we completely aware of that?
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: It's more complicated than we thought. So sunlight does increase
• 3:05
  your risk of skin cancer, but it depending on the
• 3:08
  type of skin cancer you're talking about. It's not necessarily
• 3:11
  like a linear relationship. So yes, in general, too much
• 3:16
  sun increases your risk of skin cancer. But yeah, the
• 3:19
  question is what are the confounding factors? How important is
• 3:22
  skin cancer compared to these other things. If sunlight reduces
• 3:25
  your risk of other diseases, how does that weigh against
• 3:29
  the risk of skin cancer. So it's not the type
• 3:33
  of thing that can be done in a thirty second psa.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Right, So, sou sun cancer. That does cause skin cancer.
• 3:43
  Excuse me, sun exposure that does cause skin cancer. What
• 3:46
  is causing it? Why is it happening?
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: So ultraviolet light, which is the most energy intense part
• 3:52
  of the solar spectrum. When those photons of light hit
• 3:57
  your skin, they go inside. Right we have so are
• 4:00
  all wavelengths of light to a greater or lesser degree.
• 4:04
  And that super high energy ultraviolet light, if it hits
• 4:07
  a DNA molecule, it can mess up the DNA molecule
• 4:11
  and then that can lead to mutations and skin cancer.
• 4:14
  Then it can also indirectly cause skin cancer by creating
• 4:19
  what are called reactive oxygen species, which are free radicals. Basically,
• 4:23
  so it energizes these atoms that start to steal electrons
• 4:28
  from other atoms and cause a little chain reaction, which
• 4:31
  is what a free radical is. So ultraviolet light can
• 4:35
  increase your free radicals and it can directly damage DNA.
• 4:40
  So that's why it could cause skin cancer. So it
• 4:42
  was basically that learning that one fact back in like
• 4:44
  the forties and fifties that made scientists start to say
• 4:50
  light skin cancer.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Maybe we should think about how much sign we're getting.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: But this wasn't universally accepted, right, There were some people
• 4:59
  that even back then thought that sun exposure was very
• 5:03
  healthy for you. Like, when did we figure out that
• 5:05
  sun causes the body to produce vitamin D?
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that was an important part and it's a big
• 5:09
  part of the story, I think, because that was really
• 5:11
  back in the twenties that we figured that out, and
• 5:13
  then even a little earlier we realized that sunlight could
• 5:17
  prevent rickets sockets. Yeah, so rickets is a like soft
• 5:21
  bone disease, Like if you don't get enough calcium in
• 5:26
  your bones when you're a kid, when your baby, you
• 5:29
  get soft bones, you get rickets, really bad disease.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: And in the.
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: Industrial Revolution, kids starting getting rickets, started getting rickets. Farm
• 5:38
  kids never got rickets. Then suddenly kids are working factories,
• 5:42
  they're living in cities that are choked with coalsmog, they're
• 5:47
  living in tenement buildings, they're never seeing the sun, and
• 5:49
  they all start getting rickets. Late late eighteen hundreds.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Is nutrition a factor in that vitamin D?
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: It was all vitamin D.
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: At first they thought maybe it was vitamin A, but
• 5:59
  it turned out that was how vitamin D was discovered
• 6:02
  was some doctors figured out that it could solve kid
• 6:06
  rickets and kids. And then they figured out that if
• 6:09
  sun hit skin, that's how we made vitamin D.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: Then they figured.
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: Out they tested, uh, they used some tests on.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Dogs.
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: Actually one of the guys figured it out. He was
• 6:24
  pretty he had a hunch that that's what it was.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Like.
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: They noticed that kids in the country wouldn't get rickets,
• 6:29
  and kids in the city did get rickets.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: So like, I wonder if it's sunlight.
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: So then a guy took dogs and this is I
• 6:39
  think Scotland, stuck them in.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: A They actually thought it was dietary.
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: He stuck them inside in this like little like warehouse
• 6:48
  and fed them oatmeal, which is whatever in Scotland ate
• 6:50
  at the time, and the dogs got rickets and he
• 6:54
  thought it was the oatmeal. He's like, okay, so something
• 6:57
  about diet. But then he got lucky because he had
• 7:01
  deprived the dogs of sunlight and that's why they got rickets.
• 7:05
  So then eventually they realized that light hitting cholesterol molecules
• 7:14
  in the skin actually converts the molecules to vitamin D.
• 7:18
  So vitamin D is like downstream of cholesterol. But it
• 7:21
  takes that same ultraviolet light that can screw up your DNA,
• 7:25
  it actually breaks a bond in the cholesterol molecule which
• 7:29
  allows it. It gives it some movement, and it flips
• 7:32
  around into a new form that's vitamin D. So once
• 7:35
  they figure that out, then they're like, sun's really good
• 7:39
  for you. So we had this air in like the twenties,
• 7:40
  thirties and into the forties when everyone thought sun would
• 7:44
  cure everything, and they.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Like went after it hard.
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: Really, Yeah, like they parents would send their kids up
• 7:53
  into the Alps in like the twenties to institutes for heliotherapy.
• 7:56
  Kids would ski around in their underwear. They classes in
• 7:59
  their underwear. Awesome photos from this era, like the instructors
• 8:03
  are in their underwear in the mountains outside in Switzerland
• 8:07
  teaching the kids, and everyone looks really healthy. Right, So
• 8:11
  there's kind of like this idea that you couldn't get
• 8:13
  too much light. So people are literally burning themselves on
• 8:16
  purpose for health.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Is that the issue is burning a giant part of
• 8:19
  the issue.
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So to give it away now, it looks like
• 8:24
  for melanoma, which is the most dangerous type of skin cancer,
• 8:27
  it's associated with burning strongly, but not with like gentle
• 8:33
  moderate every day sun exposure.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: So how much of a factor is skin type, like
• 8:40
  people that are pale or have freckles and red hair,
• 8:44
  blonde hair, like, how much of a factor is that
• 8:47
  in skin cancer and can they mitigate that by like
• 8:51
  gentle slow exposure, like a little bit of here, a
• 8:55
  little bit there, and slowly build up.
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, huge, Like skin type is kind of everything. People
• 9:00
  have really dark skin basically don't get sun induced skin
• 9:04
  cancer almost never, and the you know, the authorities don't
• 9:10
  tend to talk about that because they want things to
• 9:12
  be They want to have like these one size fits
• 9:13
  all recommendations. But those recommendations to basically always avoid the
• 9:17
  sun are written for the super fair people. Especially if
• 9:22
  you have red hair, orange freckles, then you actually have
• 9:27
  a mutation in your melanin gene that makes you super
• 9:30
  susceptible to skin cancer from sunlight. So if you've got
• 9:34
  if you've got that phenotype, lots of moles, red hair, freckles,
• 9:40
  you do have to be really careful and you can't.
• 9:42
  You can only do so much. Like you're not gonna
• 9:45
  tan that much anyway. Your melon is just different everybody else. Yeah,
• 9:51
  you're you're much less susceptible, and you can tan you know,
• 9:56
  you can make more melonin pretty easily through tanning.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: I wonder, what, if any effect have you ever heard
• 10:02
  of that I don't I can't remember the name of
• 10:04
  the peptide. But there's a peptide that people are taking
• 10:07
  now that causes their body to generate melanin and they
• 10:11
  get really dark. Yeah. Yeah, it's really weird.
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I don't know what's going on there exactly.
• 10:20
  It seems like that peptide is maybe making you there's
• 10:22
  things called photo sensitizers that make your skin super sense,
• 10:27
  like like you just absorb solar radiation really well then,
• 10:31
  but not necessarily in a good way, and that can
• 10:34
  make you make tons of melanin to try to compensate.
• 10:37
  So I wonder that peptide might be triggering like melanin
• 10:42
  as a compensation mechanism for extra protection from sunlight, or
• 10:46
  maybe it's just making melanin happen like independently of night.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Did you put it in a perplexity all right? Here?
• 10:52
  It is mela, meloton, melanoton, melanotan, melanotan. Since stic peptide
• 11:01
  analog of the naturally occurring hormone. A melan melanocyte stimulating
• 11:08
  hormone stimulates the body's of melanocytes to produce melanin, resulting
• 11:12
  in the dark tan. It's largely unread, unre excuse me, unregulated,
• 11:16
  illegal in many regions for cosmetic purposes, and carry significant
• 11:21
  health risks. What's the risks. It's not approved by the
• 11:25
  FDA for cosmetic use and unregulated market means purity okay,
• 11:29
  but that's unregulated. Notable risks include dermatological issues, rapid and
• 11:35
  uneven darkening of existing moles, the emergence of new moles,
• 11:38
  and hyperpigmentation concerns that could mask or accelerate the development
• 11:42
  of melanoma. What is this? Potentially damaging erections? What? Oh,
• 11:50
  that's right. This apparently gives people raging erections, prolonged, painful
• 11:55
  and potentially damaging, damaging. Imagine you get an erection and
• 12:00
  it goes so hard you redline the penis. Medical and
• 12:07
  dermatological organizations strongly advise against the use of melanoton melanotan
• 12:13
  because it's unapproved, there are no clinically established safe dosages.
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: Well card because that so alpha ms H. The thing
• 12:22
  that it is mimicking is is that's how your body
• 12:25
  makes melanin, that's how you supposed to do it.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: You got to see the before and after because they're
• 12:29
  kind of bonkers. I've seen some people get super well,
• 12:33
  the problem is it's Instagram. You never know what's real.
• 12:36
  That's that guy got a little tan. Let's see if
• 12:39
  there's any Okay, look how pale that see? But that's
• 12:42
  not How do we know if that's real?
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: Just like there's like a light on him right and.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Then he's in a fucking dark closet in the last
• 12:50
  picture photo seen? Is there that one right there? The
• 12:53
  low the no, the one, yeah, that one? Look at
• 12:56
  that guy?
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Well, you know it's a look. It's an interesting look.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: He injected himself with unregulated tanny peptide milanotown Milana tan.
• 13:06
  To click on that, it seems like a no no,
• 13:11
  this guy, this is the guy that I saw online.
• 13:13
  This guy's he's the test rabbit. This dude went hard.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: Did he get a direction too?
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he died from that. I don't know. So his
• 13:24
  before and afters so let's see what is he just? Okay, yeah,
• 13:31
  he just got darker and darker and darker. But I
• 13:34
  wonder if, like if I understand that it's unregulated, but
• 13:38
  if it was regulated and this is something they're trying
• 13:41
  to work with right now with peptides and make them
• 13:43
  see that's the photo's dark though, I mean that's like
• 13:48
  a shitty iPhone one camera. That's crazy. If that's really like,
• 13:53
  this is nuts. There's something going on there, Like you
• 13:57
  know what looks like it looks like those bodybuilder guys
• 13:59
  who use that that that ink that die on their
• 14:03
  skin to make themselves darker so their muscles pop out more.
• 14:06
  So here's here's better tanning log photos. These are better photos.
• 14:10
  That's crazy, But I wonder if that offers skin protection.
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: It would definitely offer I mean if it is, if
• 14:17
  it's if it's melanin right, definitely, I mean that guy
• 14:20
  can can probably be outside all day.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's the question. Is that available to someone
• 14:26
  who's pale? Like and if someone is pale, uh see
• 14:31
  if you can find an example of someone who's pale
• 14:34
  who took it, because you would think like, oh well
• 14:37
  maybe that maybe just we need to do studies and
• 14:40
  figure out what the dosage is and figure out how
• 14:43
  to activate that aspect of it.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: Melanin clearly protects you from from skin cancer. Like if
• 14:49
  you if you have super dark skin like you know
• 14:51
  African ancestry, you're blocking like your melanin is absorbing like
• 14:56
  ninety seven ninety eight percent of the UV rays.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: It's super effective.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: But didn't Bob Marley die from skin cancer?
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: He did?
• 15:04
  Speaker 5: That's pretty crazy.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, this is one.
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: Wow, it looks like the same person, same mold.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks like the same male. That looks pretty good.
• 15:17
  Speaker 6: But I would just also't if you were trying to
• 15:19
  sell some of the stuff and maybe in nefarious ways,
• 15:23
  this would be an easy one to market.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Hmmm, tough And you know, definitely, Look, this is part
• 15:29
  of the unregulated market problem is we don't know. And
• 15:33
  also you know you're getting ninety nine bro science on
• 15:36
  this stuff. You know, like.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: What screams BROSI screams it.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: From the top of the hills. What a legitimate scientist
• 15:47
  is out there injecting himself with melanotan.
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: But the other thing is if you do it naturally right,
• 15:52
  if you just get a little sun every day and
• 15:54
  slowly build up, you're not just making melan and you're
• 15:57
  also increasing your body's damage or pay system like you
• 16:01
  have all these like nuclear tide excision repair things that
• 16:04
  fix your DNA and fixed cells that have gotten screwed up,
• 16:08
  and that will also ramp up every day you And
• 16:12
  it's not just not just sunlight like exercise, same thing,
• 16:16
  like anything that that like stresses the body a little bit.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: It's like mormesis.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: Right, So all those things are going to cause your
• 16:23
  damage repair system to crank up and be ready. So
• 16:27
  you probably want those to, like the melanin and the
• 16:29
  damage repair to to like go up together.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Right, So you would want to if if let's say
• 16:36
  studies were done, let's say we found what the effective
• 16:39
  and safe dose is and how to administer it, you
• 16:42
  would want to do it along with sun exposure slowly
• 16:46
  to try to ramp up your body's ability.
• 16:48
  Speaker 6: Added note on this, This happened fourteen years ago.
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: WHOA, which is strange.
• 16:53
  Speaker 6: Here's some of the side effects, he said, But he
• 16:55
  also studies is pretty much impervious to UV at this point.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Increased libido. Didn't see that one much either, he said,
• 17:02
  he didn't get it. Okay, sides are decreased appetite, very mild,
• 17:06
  nausea more for some none for me. Decreased libida increased libido,
• 17:10
  he said it didn't see that one much either. Some
• 17:13
  get facial flushing like a nyas and dose. Never got
• 17:16
  that either. And the most strange things that it feels
• 17:19
  really good to stretch, like when you first wake up. Interesting,
• 17:24
  huh did you do it for the skin cling? Yes?
• 17:28
  I did it for skin coloring. I'm pretty much impervious
• 17:30
  to u V at this point, I have faded about
• 17:33
  twenty five percent since returning from Florida. January thirty fifth.
• 17:37
  We'll be dosing again probably March. Is this guy still alive?
• 17:42
  Click on that link where his his profile. Let's see
• 17:47
  if Homeboys alive.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: He die?
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Is this reddit, say.
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: A year ago he's commenting I never did it subtle?
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, so a year ago he's still alive or someone
• 17:58
  has taken over his account. In theory, you could use
• 18:03
  an old school courts tanning lamp. Okay, so you could
• 18:06
  tan with it.
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: Isn't a weird reddit there, So we're gonna stop looking.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Why I don't.
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: I mean, this is not for the show, but he isn't.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: A weird Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, that's why.
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: It's a friend to go that way.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: That's a problem. Well, only crazy people are willing to
• 18:20
  try something like that. Like, do you remember that there
• 18:23
  was a guy, god, I think it was on Oprah
• 18:25
  one of those shows where he was taking was it silver?
• 18:32
  That's right, colloidal silver, and his whole his skin turned
• 18:36
  blue permanently like a smurf. Poor guy, and he wound
• 18:40
  up dying.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and how did it kill him?
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it killed him, but he's I
• 18:46
  believe he died young. That's homeboy, not good.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just not a good look.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: You would think you'd start tearing a little blue and
• 18:54
  you go, hey, maybe I need to back off this
• 18:57
  colloidal silver se Yeah, I mean, what the fuck dude,
• 19:04
  that guy. I mean, maybe he could have gotten some
• 19:06
  lanotan and even that out. It's just been a nice chocolate,
• 19:11
  you know, like a bluish chocolate.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, he looks delicious. I'll say that.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. This is argia argeria argeria, the rare disease that
• 19:23
  turns people blue, caused by a buildup of silver in
• 19:26
  the body which discolors the skin. Wow. Twenty thirteen, he
• 19:32
  died from unrelated causes. Whatever that means. I mean, anybody's
• 19:38
  taking that much coidal silver you're probably making a lot
• 19:39
  of other mistakes.
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like you're risky, dude, so many options.
• 19:47
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• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Back to Bob Marley.
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: Yes, he did die of skin cancer, and that confuses
• 21:04
  a lot of people. So he had he had melanoma
• 21:06
  on his toe. So and that was a kind of
• 21:10
  uh melanoma that's not caused by the sun. And everybody
• 21:14
  gets it no matter you know what race you are.
• 21:17
  Everybody gets it at this the same rate, which is
• 21:20
  it is quite uncommon. They know it's not caused by
• 21:24
  the sun, but it like it complicates things for people
• 21:29
  because people are like, I got melania my toe and
• 21:32
  they think it's from the sun, and they're like, how
• 21:34
  did that happen? Right, Like, what's melanoma doing on there?
• 21:38
  But so it does not all melanomas are are caused
• 21:43
  by the sun. There's you know, most probably are. But
• 21:48
  it gets really weird with melanoma. It's associated with burning
• 21:54
  with like intermittent sun exposure. Like you work in an
• 21:57
  office all year and then you go to kankun and
• 21:59
  get fried. Hm, that's a pretty good recipe for melanoma.
• 22:03
  History of sunburns also like will double your risk chronic
• 22:07
  exposure where you have an outdoor job every day, lower
• 22:10
  than average risk of melanoma.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: So really, yeah, so it gets weird, Like landscaper landscapers have.
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: Outdoor workers have fewer, have a lower incidence of melanoma
• 22:18
  than office workers.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Wow, and we don't hear that.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: No, No, I mean I was. I was looking at
• 22:28
  Instagram the other day and some poor guy had this.
• 22:33
  I don't know what happened to his face, but he
• 22:35
  had some sort of skin cancer and they had to
• 22:37
  take a graft and his it was on his nose,
• 22:41
  so it was like a flap of skin was like
• 22:44
  almost covering over his eye. And you know, his message
• 22:47
  was where sunscreen? This would happened to me?
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: Well, so I mean, yeah, so I don't want to
• 22:52
  downplay skin cancer.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Because it sucks.
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: It would you get it if it's you know, they
• 22:55
  have to cut off a hunk of your year or something.
• 22:57
  That definitely sucks, even if it's not life threatening sucks. Yeah,
• 23:02
  But and so yeah, like, but that's generally.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: From overexposure, like burning.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Burning, all the exertise fucking with said don't.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Burn, right. Burning is the one that people always say
• 23:13
  that it's not just burning, it's burning causes damage that
• 23:17
  starts to appear years later.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And there's there's dialing in on that more and more.
• 23:23
  It can start like burns during childhood is actually the
• 23:27
  highest association from melanoma. Don't burn when you're kids, that
• 23:30
  we're all screwed.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Oh that sucks. That sucks because I fucking cooked myself
• 23:35
  as a kid.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Say mean, I grew up in Florida fried.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: You know. Well when I was a kid in the
• 23:40
  seventies and eighties, you know, you wanted to get a
• 23:43
  tan well, especially when I lived in Boston it was
• 23:45
  cold as shit in the winter. When it got warm.
• 23:48
  You know, you're a vermont Caa, you got out there, like, ah,
• 23:50
  put baby woil on, we fried.
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: Totally.
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: I was just looking at some of those Johnson baby
• 23:55
  al ads from like the sixties and seventies.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Oh my god.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was basically the cooking lube is totally. Yeah,
• 24:02
  it just helped helped you cook better.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: But you remember, you know George Hamilton, like the actor.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, mister tan he yeah, he.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Was all about that.
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: Just the other day, I was like, how's he doing
• 24:13
  eighty seven and ridiculously healthy?
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Right? Really?
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's going strong.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I met that guy. He was. He did an
• 24:19
  episode of news radio once. Yeah he was tan as fuck. Yeah,
• 24:23
  that was that was his thing.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: That was his thing. If he came. Yeah, what he
• 24:26
  was known for. And still he's still going.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: That's so he's still tan.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you should see him.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: He looks really quick. Pull a photo of George Hamilton.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: I mean great for an eighty seven year old.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, look at him. Still tan?
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: How does he shy?
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: What a weird thing to be known for. He's the
• 24:43
  guy who gets tan, you know what I'm saying. I mean,
• 24:48
  try to remember a role that he played.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: That's true.
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: I think he was drac Ula in some bad nineteen
• 24:53
  seventies like comedy.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Look that that's a tan right there.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Right, So how was he getting it? Though? Like I
• 25:00
  remember when I was a kid in Boston, a lot
• 25:02
  of people use tanning beds, especially in the winter time, and.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: They still do.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Like that.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: Those are actually like on the rise, and they do.
• 25:09
  They seem to raise a risk of melonouma for sure.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: That's how we did it.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Ah. Look, he's got to reflect a tan thing. So
• 25:16
  he's just out there getting sunlight all the time. And
• 25:19
  he didn't look bad. That's you know, that's a that's
• 25:24
  a weird one. Right.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: He claims he's never had skin cancer.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: I think, well, he probably was doing it so often
• 25:31
  that his body was prepared for it. Right. Look at
• 25:34
  that photo of him with that lady in the corner. Yeah,
• 25:37
  look at that. That's nuts.
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: See that's the thing I think, Like, if you're getting
• 25:44
  that regular dosage, your body is producing all these compounds
• 25:49
  whose entire job is to make sure your celves don't
• 25:52
  turn cancero is because you know, living things have been
• 25:56
  working on this for five hundred million years, like get
• 26:00
  hammered by the sun every day, and they got to
• 26:02
  deal with it.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: So it's when it seems like when your skin is
• 26:07
  totally unprepared and you shock it with like a massive
• 26:11
  dose that that it's not ready for, then you're in trouble.
• 26:16
  Like that's the kind of thing that triggers trouble.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Was there any pushback on this research, like when you
• 26:22
  when you first started examining this and realizing that sun
• 26:26
  exposure has a lot of benefits. Were any dermatologists saying, Hey,
• 26:31
  this is dangerous information. You shouldn't say this.
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: Hell yeah, I've been denounced multiple times the American Academy
• 26:37
  of Dermatology, Like officially they send an official letter when
• 26:40
  I write an article and they say nobody should be
• 26:43
  getting any sun exposure.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: That's their opinion. No one should be getting any sun exposure,
• 26:49
  regardless of the benefits the vitamin D.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: The no sun exposure without protection from either sunscreen or.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: You know, clothing.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: Wow, And if that makes you viamin D deficient, take
• 27:01
  a pill. So that's what needs to change, because those
• 27:04
  pills haven't panned out in tests. They don't work like
• 27:07
  natural D does for whatever reason.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Really, yeah, they don't work at all.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: What do you mean?
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: So everyone thought, like back in the eighties and nineties,
• 27:18
  everyone started noticing. Scientists started noticing that people who naturally
• 27:22
  had lower amounts of vitamin D in their blood had
• 27:27
  higher rates of all like the classic chronic diseases. So
• 27:30
  they start thinking, Okay, vitamin D, it's like a magic
• 27:33
  pill almost. It'll cure, It'll reduce everyone's risk of all
• 27:37
  these diseases if we raise their rates of D. So
• 27:39
  they started recommending vitamin D pills, which I think are
• 27:42
  still like the number one supplement in the world.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: I take it.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: So then they did all these clinical trials to prove
• 27:49
  that it would help. Huge, huge clinical trials, tens of
• 27:52
  thousands of people, follow ups that went for many years.
• 27:56
  None of them showed a benefit.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: No benefit in terms of your immune response.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: No benefit for any condition.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Now, did they take vitamin D along with vitamin K
• 28:07
  two and with magnesium because that's what's recommended.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: So I don't. I mean, there are a bunch of different.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: Apparently vitamin D by itself is not effective. That you
• 28:16
  need vitamin D with K two and magnesium, and I
• 28:20
  think there might be another one. Well, see put that
• 28:23
  into perplexity. Please see what it says, like what are
• 28:27
  the benefits of vitamin D and what should it be
• 28:29
  taken with? Because I think magnesium and K two are
• 28:32
  the big ones, and that together they have a sort
• 28:35
  of a synergistic effect.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that could be, like I'd be curious.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think vitamin D by itself, the body has
• 28:42
  a problem absorbing it. It's like there's a lot of
• 28:45
  things like that, Like zinc is like that, you need
• 28:47
  an ionophore to absorb zinc, so you take it with
• 28:50
  corse tin.
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: Well one thing D you know the way it naturally
• 28:54
  comes in through the skin, and it comes in with
• 28:57
  a whole bunch of related compounds, right, and so yeah,
• 28:59
  I do think there's sort of a synergistic effect when
• 29:01
  it's combined with the right thing.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: But D from the sun has always been known as
• 29:05
  the best way to get it. The best way to
• 29:07
  get vitamin D, the most effective, the healthiest way is
• 29:09
  through sun exposure.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like that's that's how the design is supposed to work.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Perplexi says, Vitamin D helps your body absorb calcium, builds
• 29:16
  strong bones, to tea, support muscles and nerves, plays a
• 29:18
  key role in immune function. It's best absorbed and taken
• 29:20
  with a meal or a snack that contains some fat
• 29:23
  and offered paired with calcium for bone health. So please
• 29:29
  put in what are the benefits of vitamin D taken
• 29:32
  with K two and magnesium. See it says that because
• 29:38
  this is what my doctor, who is a vitamin specialist,
• 29:43
  recommends benefits when taken with K two and magnesium. Don't
• 29:54
  d Okay. Taking vitamin D together with vitamin K two
• 29:58
  and magnesium can make each of the them work more effectively,
• 30:01
  especially for bones and heart, as long as the doses
• 30:03
  are appropriate for you. The trio mainly improves how your
• 30:07
  body handles calcium. Interesting D helps you absorb it, magnesium
• 30:12
  helps activate D, and K two helps send calcium into
• 30:16
  bones instead of arteries. D increases calcium absorption from your
• 30:20
  gut and supports bone, muscle, and immune function. Magnesium required
• 30:24
  to activate vitamin D. Low magnesium can blunt vitamin d's
• 30:28
  effect and also directly support bone structure and many enzymes.
• 30:32
  K two activates proteins that move calcium into bones and
• 30:36
  teeth and keep it out of the arteries and soft tissues,
• 30:39
  helping bone and cardiovascular health. Potential benefits of the combo
• 30:44
  better bone support, heart and artery protection, more efficient vitamin
• 30:50
  D use. Okay, so the doctor is correct. So maybe
• 30:56
  that's the problems that these people were taking it with
• 30:58
  low magnesium, low calcium didn't have K two.
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I like, like i'd be curious if, like, if
• 31:08
  there was an effect on disease incidents for that combination.
• 31:13
  I don't know, because the D on its own, Yeah,
• 31:15
  it didn't show any any effect, but sun exposure, let's.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Put that in. Does vitamin D taken on its own
• 31:22
  have any health benefits? Let's see what it says to that,
• 31:26
  because I'd never heard that that D on its own
• 31:29
  was not effective at all. I've just heard that it
• 31:31
  was minimally effective, that you had to take it with other.
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: It seems like it only helps people who have who
• 31:37
  are really deficient like you're if you're super low like
• 31:40
  below like sixteen nanograms per millileater, then probably it's a
• 31:45
  good idea. But like for people who already had like
• 31:47
  at least twenty nanograms for mill eater, it didn't seem
• 31:50
  to have any of these benefits that they were seeing
• 31:52
  in people who naturally had high rates through sound.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: It says, yes, vitamin D on its own has several
• 31:58
  well proven health benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and immunity.
• 32:01
  Just like a general answer, huh, bone strength and fracture prevention,
• 32:07
  muscle function adequate. But sorry, what's up? I didn't I
• 32:11
  miss the word on it on its own, that's right.
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: Why the answer was weird?
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: So let's say, yes, it's clear proven benefits, especially for bones,
• 32:22
  muscles and correcting deficiency.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's going to be for people who have
• 32:26
  super low.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Levels m hm preventing rickets. There it is.
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, But so they had thought that it might reduce
• 32:34
  instance of all these other diseases based on what they're
• 32:36
  seeing for people who naturally at high levels sun exposure,
• 32:40
  and it didn't.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: So then people who had high levels through sun exposure.
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, except because your your natural level off iman D
• 32:48
  is sort of a direct like meter of having.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Right, but this is natural level. You're not talking about supplementation, right, right, Okay.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: So that was why, like people who had high levels
• 32:58
  of D without supplementation have lower rates of all like every.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: Disease you can think.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: Right, So the hope was that raising everyone's DED to
• 33:05
  those levels would have the same effect, and it didn't.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Like New England Journal Medicine.
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: Did actually did an editorial in twenty twenty two saying
• 33:16
  stop prescribing D doesn't work, which is.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: God. That seems incorrect though, because if you're taking it
• 33:25
  with magnesium in K two, it seems that they do
• 33:27
  work senergistically and there seems to be proven health benefits.
• 33:31
  That One of the problems I think is like I
• 33:34
  think people generally want to avoid recommending supplementation for some reason.
• 33:43
  It's kind of a weird thing, like they want to
• 33:45
  dismiss it. Like I had a doctor once who told me,
• 33:48
  don't bother taking vitamins, just eat a balanced diet. And
• 33:52
  I was like, look at you. The guy looked like shit,
• 33:56
  he didn't get it, you right, He looked terrible.
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm amazed poor what poor health they generally like
• 34:03
  seem to do.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: I can't blame take it. I mean, it's so hard
• 34:06
  to take seriously a guy with a gut when we'll
• 34:09
  just he looked terrible, and he was telling me that
• 34:12
  I just need a healthy diet, and I'm like, Okay,
• 34:14
  I do have a healthy diet, but also I feel
• 34:17
  different when I take vitamins and my blood work reflects that.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I noticed that when when I was I started
• 34:24
  going to.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: All the conferences of the sun researchers, and they're all
• 34:27
  in like the basements of hotels, and those guys all
• 34:31
  look are as pasty as it gets, Like, do none
• 34:33
  of you guys, like you know, practice what you preach?
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Really? How strange is it that human beings, with all
• 34:39
  of our knowledge with I mean obviously just much more
• 34:42
  to learn, we're still confused about how we interact with
• 34:46
  our environment.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, with sun, which seems to me like it's there,
• 34:53
  it's it's everywhere. It's like you're always in the sun
• 34:56
  in normal in the normal world environment where human outside
• 35:00
  of cities and all that stuff. That's it seems like
• 35:02
  we would have an understanding of what happens when you're
• 35:05
  interacting with sun.
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and light period like light of all kinds. Like
• 35:10
  it seems like there's the sense in biology that light
• 35:13
  didn't matter. It's like just ephemeral, which you know, the
• 35:17
  quantum physicists one hundred years ago understood that light and
• 35:21
  matter are just like two halves the same coin, right,
• 35:23
  and that light totally affects the behavior molecules.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: We're made of molecules, Light's going to matter.
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: So I actually think, like that's where I eventually got
• 35:32
  to with the book. I was like, we need to
• 35:33
  think about our light diets and our like light scapes
• 35:36
  that we're you know, surrounding ourselves with like more seriously
• 35:39
  than we have.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Well, it seems like your work is based entirely on
• 35:44
  the data. So what did these dermatologists have to say
• 35:49
  about the data If they're denouncing you and they're saying that,
• 35:52
  you know, this guy should not be listened to the
• 35:55
  things you're saying are dangerous, like, but you're talking about data.
• 35:58
  So I don't understand how they can just make those
• 36:00
  flat statements like.
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: That, right, And what I think we just need to
• 36:04
  have a conversation about the data. And you know, there's
• 36:06
  no like right answer ahead of time. But they don't
• 36:10
  like their jobs is to prevent skin cancer. So if
• 36:13
  that's your only job, you're gonna tell people stay out
• 36:16
  of sunlight forever, forever, right, And no one can call
• 36:19
  you on that. No one can say, hey, like, I
• 36:22
  got skin cancer, it's your fault.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Right, But doesn't sun exposure improve cardiovascular health and lower
• 36:28
  blood pressure? And isn't cardiovascular disease a far more dangerous
• 36:32
  problem than skin cancer? In terms of numbers?
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: It's number one, twenty million doses a year cardia. So
• 36:39
  anything that moves the needle on that is awesome, you know,
• 36:43
  and it does, and it seems to like all the
• 36:46
  studies show it does. But they're all observational studies, right.
• 36:50
  You look at populations, you're like, oh, these people have
• 36:52
  more sun exposure, lower blood pressure, lower rates of cardiovascular disease.
• 36:57
  But then you know, the other side will say, you know,
• 37:01
  correlation does not prove causation, like prove show us that
• 37:04
  it's you know, do your giant clinical study where you
• 37:08
  stick half the people in the sunlight and they live longer,
• 37:11
  which is not gonna happen.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, But it's like, are they willing to have
• 37:16
  a conversation with you.
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: They're not They're not willing to they don't want to
• 37:20
  look outside of the sun and uh skin cancer question. Like,
• 37:27
  they're not willing to entertain any of the other benefits
• 37:30
  that are outside of their field. So there's got to
• 37:33
  be somebody out there who can be the generalist, who
• 37:34
  can like think about it holistically.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: That seems so ignorant.
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: It's the it's the it's this date of science now,
• 37:43
  like the sciences is, you know, like a field of
• 37:46
  micro specialties like some Yeah, I'll take a little that
• 37:48
  looks good when you're a porn it's almost a very
• 37:51
  shiny uh press.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got there.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Cheers.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: It's coffee good for you.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Coffee is awesome. For coffee is shocking.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: The good vite talk to me, let's go.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: It's it is fucking crazy how good coffee is for you.
• 38:07
  I've I've been like startled by the power of the evidence.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've read both. I've read It's bad for you,
• 38:17
  and I dismissed it because I'm biased and I love coffee,
• 38:23
  and uh, I just it just it just tastes too good,
• 38:27
  it feels too good. I like it it's but I've
• 38:31
  read a lot of benefits about it.
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: I think it's the best possible supplement. Really, you think
• 38:35
  if it's a supplement, it's the best. And I think
• 38:37
  it's all due to mitochondrial function. I think it makes
• 38:41
  your mitochondria just spin, you know, hm hm.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: And it's particularly because of caffeine or coffee itself. Is
• 38:49
  the coffee bean.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean caffeine.
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: I think it's caffeine, but I wouldn't be surprised if
• 38:53
  there's other stuff in coffee that's contributing, because you know,
• 38:57
  like tea doesn't seem to quite.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Like deliver the good it's like coffee does.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: No.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: The caffeine is actually the plants are making it to
• 39:06
  kill bugs right right, because it makes the bugs minochondria
• 39:10
  run out of control and they basically like blow up.
• 39:13
  It does that to us, but we have these other
• 39:15
  like like governors like that come in and slow down
• 39:19
  that ramp up so we get the nice ramp up
• 39:20
  without the explosion.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: So it's good.
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: So it makes it, you know, we produce energy more
• 39:28
  efficiently with less wear and tear.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: That's all I need to hear. I'm in. I just
• 39:34
  love coffee I'm not giving it up, but I've heard
• 39:37
  many people say that. Michael Polland had a really interesting anecdote.
• 39:41
  He laid off coffee for I think three or four
• 39:44
  months as an experiment, and then he had a cup
• 39:47
  of coffee and he said it was like taking a
• 39:49
  psychedelic He said, I just felt so amazing and the
• 39:53
  effect was so profound. He said, I really wanted to
• 39:56
  do it only that way where I only take it,
• 39:58
  you know, very rarely, because but then I fell right
• 40:01
  back into my right back.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I remember that that article. It was great.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: And also said none of the like the caffeine researchers
• 40:09
  touched the stuff, like that's not good. But yeah, he
• 40:14
  he went right back to it. And I think he's
• 40:16
  a proud coffee drinker.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah he is. He went right back to it. But so,
• 40:22
  have you had any conversations with these dermatologists that are
• 40:26
  denouncing you.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: No, but I'd like to, actually, I think are.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: They willing or have they avoided them?
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: They have so far really avoided like they they just say,
• 40:36
  you know, we're not ready to look at any of
• 40:38
  that research.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: It's so weird.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: I think it's gonna change.
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: I think actually, like like I said, I think light
• 40:46
  medicine is actually going to become very important in the
• 40:49
  next ten twenty years, and dermatologists are kind of positioned
• 40:52
  to be like the leaders on that stuff because like
• 40:56
  skin is the primary like interface with light for our
• 40:59
  by and.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: You know, they should be experts on all this.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: You know, red light therapy is a big thing now
• 41:05
  and dermantoloists are doing that, even though the evidence isn't
• 41:09
  great for that, but I think there's probably something there,
• 41:12
  but they should.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Basically, I think they.
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: Need to be thinking more about all of these different
• 41:17
  wavelengths of light as healing modality is, and how to
• 41:20
  you know, work them into like regular like programs.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: I've talked about this before, so I apologize to anybody listening,
• 41:28
  but I've essentially completely stopped my macular degeneration with red
• 41:33
  light therapy. Wow.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not just.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Stopped it, but reversed it, Like I don't need reading
• 41:38
  glasses anymore. I've been using a red light bed for
• 41:40
  about two years now, and from the time I started
• 41:43
  using it, within about a month I started seeing benefits,
• 41:47
  and so Gary Breco was on the podcast and explained
• 41:49
  it to me, and so I went out and bought
• 41:51
  one of these, really expensive. It's like a tanning bed,
• 41:53
  this thing you lie in and I do it three
• 41:55
  times a week for twenty minutes, so all over yep, naked,
• 41:59
  slide down in there and I keep my eyes open
• 42:02
  and they you know, I went to a tanning bed once,
• 42:04
  not a tanning bent, a red light bed once at
• 42:06
  a health clinic and they were like, gotta wear these
• 42:08
  goggles and make sure you close your eyes before the
• 42:11
  light goes on. I was like, Okay, I did all that,
• 42:13
  and apparently there's some benefit that even when blindfolded it
• 42:17
  increases your vision.
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure it's and again I think mitochondria are
• 42:21
  part of that answered. There's a guy at University College London,
• 42:24
  Glenn Jeffrey, who this is his whole field optometry and
• 42:29
  red light, and he has shown in multiple different animals
• 42:33
  including humans, that red light improves mitochondria function and improves vision.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I'm fifty eight and for me to
• 42:45
  be fifty six and saying I'm fucked. I had these
• 42:49
  fucking things everywhere. I had these all these reading glasses.
• 42:52
  I had them all over my house. I'd gotten up
• 42:54
  to three x. These are the cheap Amazon ones. I
• 42:57
  had a nice pair, but I keep losing them, so
• 42:59
  I just want to but cheap ones. They seem to work,
• 43:01
  and it was just fine for looking at a computer,
• 43:04
  you know, reading my emails, reading my phone, and I
• 43:07
  needed them to read my phone. I don't need them anymore,
• 43:10
  like at all. I don't use them anymore. My vision's
• 43:13
  not perfect. It's not as good as it was when
• 43:15
  I was twenty, but is way better than it was
• 43:18
  when I was fifty six.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I think so.
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: The the in the eye, the mitochondria in the eyes
• 43:26
  have to fire faster than any mitochondria anywhere else in
• 43:30
  the body. The eyes burn through energy like like no
• 43:33
  other cells because it's like, you know, it's kind of
• 43:36
  the toughest task.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: It's like they got to go super fast.
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: So they yeah, they those mitochondria need to be on
• 43:43
  top of their game. And it seems like red light
• 43:46
  benefits that in particular.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: What seems so close minded that these dermatologists aren't willing
• 43:53
  to say, maybe we're looking at just an insufficient amount
• 43:58
  of data, Maybe we're looking at the wrong Maybe the
• 44:00
  whole thing is much more nuanced, and maybe there's benefits
• 44:03
  if it's done correctly. I just don't understand why they're
• 44:06
  not if there's all this data, which clearly you show
• 44:09
  in your book that there's a tremendous amount of data.
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: Why you know, Like so there's this like saying attributed
• 44:16
  to Max Plunk, who's this like quantit physicists, science advances
• 44:20
  one funeral at a time, Right, So I think we
• 44:23
  got to let the old guard they die off a
• 44:25
  little bit. But I guarantee you there's a young generation
• 44:28
  coming in who's gonna be really interested in light and
• 44:31
  how they can use it.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, certainly. Well, I think there's so many conversations available
• 44:36
  online now from actual researchers and people that have put
• 44:40
  in the time and put in the work and explored
• 44:42
  things from this position that like, hey, maybe the old
• 44:45
  guard are not correct, and the data seems to show
• 44:49
  that that's true.
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's fun, I mean, playing with light, it's
• 44:53
  super fun. So like this is a way you can
• 44:55
  you can like make your world a little bit richer
• 44:58
  is starting to think about this stuff.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: Well, it's also like, don't you want to be informed?
• 45:03
  And if there's if we do understand that it has
• 45:05
  an effect on monochondria, and there is all this evidence
• 45:08
  that red light seems to have some benefits, Like wouldn't
• 45:11
  I just don't understand how someone could be an expert
• 45:14
  in skin and ignore that.
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: Well, I think that and they'll be they won't object
• 45:19
  to the red Some of them are using red light
• 45:21
  therapy because there's no risk of skin cancer from red.
• 45:23
  It's only the UV and maybe a little bit of
• 45:26
  the blue that contributes to skin cancer, so that it's
• 45:30
  the UV where they get a little wigged out.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but but even that, it seems like there's a
• 45:37
  true Like in your book, you show there's a tremendous
• 45:39
  amount of data there's health benefits to it. So I
• 45:42
  just don't understand.
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: And that data it's coming from all different other fields
• 45:46
  like immunology, cardiology, so and like scientists are sort of
• 45:52
  increasingly like hesitant to trespass on their other other domains,
• 45:57
  you know, like they're not going to walk across campus
• 45:59
  to the the other building.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm anymore.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that needs a change, you know.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've had those discussions too with scientists that are
• 46:08
  super frustrated, especially when they try to get interdisciplinary groups
• 46:12
  together to study one particular thing and everyone's resisting because
• 46:16
  they have their own work that they're working on and
• 46:17
  they don't want to get involved, and it's just like, guys,
• 46:20
  this is what you're here for. There's not a lot
• 46:23
  of scientists. You got to do your job because like
• 46:27
  you're the only ones that are doing it. There's without you, guys,
• 46:30
  were fucked. And if you're out there relying on old,
• 46:34
  insufficient data or you know, you have this very small
• 46:39
  data set that shows that there's negative outcomes to sunlight,
• 46:43
  and so you just throw the baby out with the bathwater,
• 46:46
  like you're doing the whole field a massive disservice.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: And the other part of it is that science it's
• 46:52
  sort of very self reinforcing. All it's all grant based essentially,
• 46:56
  Like if you're a scientist you want to do a study,
• 46:58
  you have to apply for a grant the money to
• 47:00
  do the studied, and there's generally a handful of entities
• 47:03
  that are like handing out the grant money. And it's
• 47:06
  the old guys waiting to die who are going to
• 47:09
  approve what they think is the truth that they're going
• 47:12
  to fund the study that fits with what they already
• 47:14
  know about the world. So it's this kind of crazy
• 47:17
  system where the only way you can get money to
• 47:20
  do a study is if you're already telling them what
• 47:22
  they know, right. So it's very difficult to get funded
• 47:25
  to do something that goes against the grain increasingly so,
• 47:28
  and that's a problem.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: And so much of it is dependent upon the ego
• 47:32
  of the people that are at the top of the organization.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: Ego is definitely part of it.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: It's a giant part of it, because if they've based
• 47:37
  their entire career on telling you one thing that turns
• 47:40
  out to be incorrect, they're very reluctant to correct themselves.
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's not just it's very rare to find the
• 47:48
  individual who's well known in the field and is eager
• 47:51
  to self correct.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: You know. So, have you had any conversations with any
• 47:55
  of these dermatologists. No, but I'd love to not one
• 48:00
  that seems crazy. Have you reached out to any of them?
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: I have when I've reached out and I get the
• 48:04
  boilerplate like we don't want anyone in the sun take
• 48:09
  your deep pills. Doesn't matter. Well, And the one that
• 48:13
  really I think has got to change is the skin
• 48:16
  color question, because fine to to you know, go with
• 48:21
  the recommendations for avoiding sun for people with fair skin,
• 48:25
  but for people with dark skin who have almost no
• 48:27
  risk from this from sun and skin cancer and can
• 48:32
  benefit hugely from like things that will lower blood pressure
• 48:36
  and lower lower cardiovascular disease, Like it seems like you're
• 48:40
  not being fair of those people.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: Not only that it makes you feel better, which is
• 48:44
  very important just for sanity.
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: I mean that, I think that gets underplayed, Like mood
• 48:50
  and happiness is kind of the whole deal, right, Yeah,
• 48:53
  And there's just no question that sun exposure makes you happier.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: I spent a week with my friend Brian Callen and
• 49:00
  Steve Manila in Alaska and Prince Edward's Island, and it
• 49:06
  rains there like three hundred and fifty days a year,
• 49:08
  and we got rained on for the entire week. And
• 49:11
  then when I came back to La, I was driving
• 49:15
  around and the sun was magnificent. It felt so good.
• 49:21
  I stood outside, I closed my eyes, I like stretched
• 49:23
  my arms wide, like I was just taking it all in.
• 49:26
  And I called my friend Steve up and I said, dude,
• 49:29
  because we were in the rain for like a week,
• 49:31
  I go, I'm in La right now, in the sun,
• 49:33
  and it feels amazing. I never felt the sun like
• 49:37
  this before. It's because like my body was saying, you
• 49:41
  didn't get enough of this for a week. Now take
• 49:43
  it in and we're gonna reward you with all these
• 49:46
  amazing endorphins and good feelings. Like if that was a drug,
• 49:50
  that drug that I took, Like if depressed people could
• 49:53
  take whatever I felt when I was out in the
• 49:56
  sun after a week in the rain, they would take
• 49:58
  it every day. They would change the world. I could
• 50:00
  feel like this all the time. And it went away.
• 50:03
  You know, it went away because La it's sunny all
• 50:05
  day long every day. So eventually I got accustomed to it.
• 50:09
  But that feeling that I get that I got after
• 50:12
  the week in the rain and coming back and just
• 50:14
  be like, ah, it was incredible. It was like a drug,
• 50:20
  an amazing drug, a happy drug.
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an awesome drug. And I've felt it for sure,
• 50:25
  you know, I especially like early spring. If I leave
• 50:28
  Vermont and I like have something in La, I'm just like, like,
• 50:32
  why is everyone not just dancing on the streets.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, But the problem is Los Angeles they're
• 50:38
  so used to it. Yeah, they're so spoiled. Everyone in
• 50:42
  there so spoiled. Weatherwise, it's the perfect weather on earth.
• 50:45
  It's incredible, yeah, especially if you live in like Malibu,
• 50:48
  where it barely even gets hot, so you're dealing with
• 50:51
  that cool ocean breeze and it's sunny every day.
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: You know, Like, oh yeah, but how about here, Like
• 50:56
  do you end up spending a lot of time outside here?
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I do. But I'm out towards
• 51:01
  all the time. I work out outside. I do a
• 51:04
  lot of farmers carries outside. I practice archery, so I
• 51:07
  shoot my bow outside every day and I love it.
• 51:11
  I feel better. Even when it's hot out. I don't
• 51:14
  mind because I'm really kind of accustomed to it because
• 51:18
  a saw I use. I use the sawn every day.
• 51:20
  I'm pretty religious about it, so my body's really acclimated
• 51:25
  to heat, so it doesn't really bother me that much.
• 51:27
  I just drink bring a big jug of sixty four
• 51:30
  hours jug of water with ice and electrolytes, and I
• 51:32
  just drink that while I'm out there. So I shoot
• 51:35
  my bow for an hour and a half, two hours
• 51:37
  and one hundred and five degrees and I'm fine. I
• 51:40
  love it.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: I actuels good. Yeah.
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: Like as a kid in Florida, you know, we'd play
• 51:44
  basketball after school for hours or in summer it would
• 51:47
  be a one hundred and five degrees and then you
• 51:50
  just kind of turn the hose.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: You stake out your mouth for quite a long time,
• 51:53
  you know.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it feels great. It's just you have
• 51:57
  to make sure you're not dehydrated and you have to
• 51:59
  make sure you don't burn. That's that's kind of all
• 52:02
  it is. Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's all it seems to be.
• 52:05
  But we do see like truckers that have you ever
• 52:09
  seen those?
• 52:09
  Speaker 4: You're talking about that famous photo, Yeah, that is a
• 52:13
  crazy photo.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Crazy photo. So what we're referring to is there's a
• 52:17
  photo of this trucker and the left side of his
• 52:20
  face from the sun coming in from the window looks
• 52:23
  like he's twenty years older on his left side than
• 52:25
  it is on his right side.
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: It's like it's like special effects. Somebody melted the left
• 52:30
  side of his face.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: What's that all about. Yeah, there's the guy that's yeah,
• 52:35
  literally nuts, Yeah, that's literally nuts.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: Like left side is just sloping off.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: Basically, his left side looks like one hundred year old
• 52:42
  man truck driver face years behind the wheel driving a truck.
• 52:46
  Damage typically limited to the left side of the face.
• 52:49
  So it's literally called truck driver face.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: Now, so that that photo in that study got used
• 52:57
  to like scare the shit out of a lot of people.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Try to keep them out of.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: This, especially people that are vain and don't want that
• 53:03
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  dot com slash rogan and use the code rogan. That's
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  Paleo Valley dot com slash rogan. Oh that's crazy. Look
• 54:11
  at the difference between Wow, that's literally bananas. So what
• 54:15
  they're showing back and forth is, uh, they're just taking
• 54:19
  the skin from the left side of the face and
• 54:20
  switching sides so you can see how much damage he's
• 54:25
  received on that side, the driver side.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so there's a couple of interesting things there.
• 54:29
  One that is shocking. But the question to ask is
• 54:33
  why doesn't every trucker look like that?
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: Like, if that's the problem, why does why did why him?
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: Like, because I've been driving in a car for forty
• 54:41
  five years and you know my face.
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: Is the same when the left and the right kind
• 54:47
  of hanging in there.
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: But but the other thing is window glass, I think
• 54:51
  is actually a really interesting problem to talk about. Yeah,
• 54:55
  because window glass blocks uv B but not you. And
• 55:00
  there's two different wavelengths of UV. The UVB is the
• 55:04
  super high energy one, UVA is a little bit lower.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: It's kind of on the way to blue.
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: And they used to think back in the day that
• 55:12
  UVB was the only one that caused skin cancer, and
• 55:15
  those old sunscreens that we used in the seventies eighties
• 55:19
  only blocks uv B. Window glass blocks UVB blocks only
• 55:24
  part of the UVA. So anytime you're driving or you're
• 55:27
  hanging out in a window in your house, you're getting
• 55:30
  a bunch of UVA. You're not gonna burn because UVB
• 55:34
  is the one that causes burning, but you're still going
• 55:36
  to get a bunch of UVA, which they figured out
• 55:39
  like in the nineties does cause skin cancer.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: Oh wow. So so sun through the windows, sun through
• 55:46
  the wind is not as good as sun outside.
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: It blocks the UVB, but the UVA comes through, but
• 55:53
  you'll never you'll never have a burn reaction because of it.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: But you might be getting damaged.
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And so like in the in the US, people
• 56:04
  get slightly more slightly higher rates of skin cancer on
• 56:07
  the left side of their body. In the UK, they
• 56:09
  get slightly higher rates of skin cancer on the right side.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: Ah, because they drive in the opposite side of the road.
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so window glasses slightly slightly It's like fifty two
• 56:20
  forty eight.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: It's not not.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Huge, okay, but it's statistically significant.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: Statistically significant.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, huh, So do you think it's this guy's particular jeens?
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: That must be something weird about that guy, right.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Well, how many instances of truck driver face do they have?
• 56:35
  Speaker 6: I just googled the condition and it's only him coming
• 56:39
  up in the photos. So this is the thing one lady,
• 56:41
  But I don't She clearly doesn't seem to have the
• 56:43
  same issue.
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of truck drivers that have been doing
• 56:46
  it for fifty years.
• 56:47
  Speaker 5: That's not the same thing.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's not real. Is that real?
• 56:49
  Speaker 5: It's a different thing. She's got some wrong with her jaw.
• 56:52
  Speaker 6: Oh, but it's coming up as the same condition, you know,
• 56:56
  a lotter oal dermat.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Total can Oh, so she had some sort of cancer
• 57:01
  that made her way its way into her jaw. But
• 57:03
  I can't.
• 57:03
  Speaker 6: I would have assumed that more cases would pop up,
• 57:06
  But it's literally just him.
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: So that's the thing. It's the real question is what's
• 57:10
  up with that dude?
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Interesting, that's not the I don't think that's the
• 57:15
  same guy. No, it doesn't seem like the same person.
• 57:18
  That might be it's hard to say, yeah, quite a
• 57:21
  different lightning.
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: But so the thing is, if so those sunscreens that
• 57:26
  were acting kind of like window glass in the seventies
• 57:28
  and eighties and even into the nineties before we got
• 57:30
  the broad spectrum sunscreens, they're blocking the UVB so you
• 57:35
  weren't going to ever burn. And that's what SPF actually
• 57:38
  measures is how many more times you can be out
• 57:40
  in the sun without burning. So if you got it
• 57:42
  but based totally on UVB, So if you got SPF thirty,
• 57:46
  in theory you can spend thirty times as long outside
• 57:49
  before you start to burn. That's a long time, right,
• 57:53
  But all that time UVA is just pouring into you.
• 57:57
  And they now know that uva is the one that
• 57:59
  probably is most likely to cause melanoma.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: Oh that's crazy. Wow. So sunscreen now, I use a
• 58:08
  natural sunscreen when I use it at all, it's the
• 58:10
  stuff that's like beef tallow based and the zinc in
• 58:13
  and it's very white and obvious, you know, it's the
• 58:17
  spray stuff goes on clear. I can't even tell you
• 58:19
  have it on. Yeah, but it's very effective. But I'm
• 58:22
  always like super hesitant. I'm like, what's in that stuff
• 58:26
  that we're going to find out fifteen twenty years from now,
• 58:29
  like if it can block the sun. So it's a chemical,
• 58:32
  and you're spraying this chemical on an organ, which is
• 58:34
  your skin, so your your skin's absorbing it. I'm like,
• 58:37
  what's going on there?
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: And they used to say, oh, no, no, it's not
• 58:41
  absorbed very much. And then the FDA CDC studies a
• 58:46
  few years ago and discovered that it's absorbed at very
• 58:50
  large amounts. Like, yes, it turns up at high doses
• 58:54
  or higher doses than they would like it to in blood, breast,
• 58:58
  milky 'urine, you name it.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: And what specifically turns up and what's dangerous about it?
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: So they're suspected to be hormone disruptors, all those classic
• 59:06
  chemical filters like oxybenzone. There isn't there isn't much proof
• 59:14
  that they're dangerous and the amounts used, but they definitely
• 59:19
  are absorbed at much higher rates than we thought. And
• 59:22
  the FDA has refused to approve them as safe, pending
• 59:28
  more testing, and nobody's done the testing. Oh, but they're
• 59:32
  about to get phased out anyway, Like just as of
• 59:34
  a couple months ago, the government changed the rules and
• 59:40
  is going to let in for the first time in
• 59:43
  thirty years new ingredients which they've been using in Europe
• 59:47
  and Asia and Australia for decades and the century. Companies
• 59:52
  have been asking to use them and haven't been allowed to.
• 59:55
  But now they're finally going to get to use like.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: One of the main ones and one of these ingredients.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: So it's called like Demo trisonol or something. And there's
• 1:00:04
  another one that you see in Europe called like Mexicil
• 1:00:08
  four hundred.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: But they're way better.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: Like basically, US sunscreens are our generation behind everyone else
• 1:00:13
  because in the US sun screens are regulated as over
• 1:00:16
  the counter drugs. MU Trizano.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, bemoch was a highly effective broad spectrum V filtered
• 1:00:21
  blocks both UVA n UVB, proved by FDAs over the
• 1:00:25
  counter sunscreen ingredient in June of twenty twenty six. Oh wow,
• 1:00:29
  so this must happen. Ye celebrated for being highly photo stable,
• 1:00:33
  doesn't break down the sun transparent on the skin without
• 1:00:36
  leaving a white cast and gentle on sensitive skin. So
• 1:00:39
  this is RFK junior stuff.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this one looks really good.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: So this other stuff that was has been in there,
• 1:00:48
  why didn't it get examined. If Europe and Asia and
• 1:00:51
  all these other places were using these different they say
• 1:00:54
  for versions.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they all bailed on it long ago because it
• 1:00:58
  was all we had.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: And that drives me crazy.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well so it's because so the FDA.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: So in the US, sunscreens are regulated as drugs counter drugs,
• 1:01:08
  so you have to do all this safety testing if
• 1:01:10
  you want to get a new ingredient, and everywhere else
• 1:01:13
  they're just cosmetics, so you can use kind of whatever
• 1:01:15
  you want with more minimal safety testing. So the companies
• 1:01:19
  wanted to use the stuff in the US forever, but
• 1:01:21
  the FDA said, sure, just you know, do the testing.
• 1:01:25
  But they didn't want to do it was too expensive
• 1:01:27
  to do the testing. They have to test it on animals,
• 1:01:30
  they didn't want to get the blowback on that. There
• 1:01:33
  are a bunch of reasons that they weren't willing to
• 1:01:34
  do it. Also, I think they're a little scared of
• 1:01:36
  what they might find. So anyway, so our sunscreens have
• 1:01:41
  not been nearly as good as what's used elsewhere, both
• 1:01:45
  in terms of performance and like maybe safety suspicions. So
• 1:01:50
  that that's going to change by the end of this year.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: It's going to get better.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: Well, that's good. Are they with the traditional sunscreen ingredients
• 1:01:56
  that we used to use? Is there any negative health
• 1:01:58
  consequences of using them that they've shown, Like, is there
• 1:02:01
  any diseases that occur more readily or more frequently.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: Not that have been proven.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 4: There's like toxicologists are a little suspicious about some of them,
• 1:02:11
  Like they've definitely been shown to mess up coral right, like.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: People coral reefs. Yeah, yeah, that's one of the things
• 1:02:18
  they found after COVID. Right, they used to think they
• 1:02:21
  used to think that it was the warming of the environment.
• 1:02:23
  This was one of the things that climate change people
• 1:02:25
  used to say, the climate changes was destroying the coral reefs.
• 1:02:29
  And then it turns out acctually it's all these people
• 1:02:32
  that have sunscreen all over their body and they jump
• 1:02:34
  in the ocean and they're essentially poisoning the reef.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's all the above, I'm pretty sure.
• 1:02:38
  But yeah, the sunscreen at that kind of concentration, if
• 1:02:42
  you got a you know, a bazillion starklers in the water,
• 1:02:45
  can definitely mess up the carl It.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: Wasn't there some sort of a study that examined what
• 1:02:50
  happened to the reef after COVID. There was one particular
• 1:02:54
  reef that was in this highly visited area where people
• 1:03:00
  jump in, and they showed a massive increase in the
• 1:03:04
  reef after COVID.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like, well why banned use of those sunscreen? A
• 1:03:10
  bunch of places banned and those that styles sunscreen.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: But the uh, but they don't really check your bags though. Yeah,
• 1:03:21
  you know what I mean when they say banned, Like
• 1:03:22
  people are gonna take it anyway, But.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 4: It doesn't look like I don't think it has a
• 1:03:26
  much impact on us unless you're using a ton of it,
• 1:03:31
  which of course now some people are.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: So it's not great for you, but it's not the worst. Yeah.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 4: There's been a bunch of studies that just looked at
• 1:03:37
  like lifespan and sunscreen doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever,
• 1:03:42
  like positive or negative on lifespan.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: So it just might have some sort of an impact
• 1:03:47
  on hormonal function.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it could well.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 4: Disruption endocrine disruption. There's a guy named Graham Peasley at
• 1:03:55
  Notre Dame who found that many, many cosmetic products of
• 1:04:02
  all kinds are actually contaminated with forever chemicals. And it's
• 1:04:10
  even if they don't have it on the ingredient. Like
• 1:04:12
  anything that's like water resistant or super smooth is quite
• 1:04:18
  possibly going to have forever chemicals in it. And some
• 1:04:20
  of it is actually coming from the plastic containers because
• 1:04:24
  those get they basically get like fluorinated with this like
• 1:04:30
  flooring gas before they get anything in them, which is
• 1:04:33
  supposed to make them like a little smoother inside of
• 1:04:37
  the containers. But it turns out that actually leaks forever
• 1:04:40
  chemicals into the product whatever's in there.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: M that's what you found.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean this is a problem
• 1:04:47
  with hot coffee when you're drinking it out of.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: A paper cup, very similar.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, people don't realize, like the paper cup is
• 1:04:53
  not capable of keeping that liquid. Yeah, it would turn
• 1:04:57
  to Mushah. The reason why it doesn't turn to mush
• 1:05:00
  just because there's essentially a condom around the inside of
• 1:05:04
  the coffee cup. And you know, Paul Saladino broke a
• 1:05:07
  coffee cup down to show what it looks like on
• 1:05:09
  the inside, and you're like, oh, no, you're pouring hot
• 1:05:12
  liquid into plastic, which you're never supposed to do. And
• 1:05:16
  it's also like most coffee machines, like a giant percentage
• 1:05:20
  of coffee machines have just plastic everywhere. I got rid
• 1:05:23
  of mine. That's why we use French press at the
• 1:05:25
  studio and I use that at home too, and I have
• 1:05:27
  one of those little arrow presses to make an individual
• 1:05:30
  cup of coffee. It's like, the plastic is a real problem,
• 1:05:34
  and heating it is terrible. We know that about water bottles,
• 1:05:37
  Like you're never supposed to drink out of a water
• 1:05:38
  bottle that you leave in the hot sun in your car.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: So now picture that bottle sunscreen that's sitting in your
• 1:05:42
  car right cooking and leeching into the the material.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: Yuck. Yeah, not good. People don't think of the skin
• 1:05:53
  as an organ. And I was explaining to a friend
• 1:05:56
  of mine the other day he was using hand wash,
• 1:05:59
  that fucking hand sanitizer stuff, and I'm like, man, I
• 1:06:03
  don't think that's good for you. I mean, I think
• 1:06:05
  if you want to wash your hands, you should just
• 1:06:07
  use soap and water. And then I read this article
• 1:06:09
  about it, like, oh, yeah, that's a toxic chemical hand sanitizer.
• 1:06:14
  When you're using it every day, you're essentially exposing your skin,
• 1:06:18
  your organ to this. Like what exactly is in hand
• 1:06:23
  sanitizer and is it bad for you because I remember
• 1:06:26
  this article, but I just like went over the headline
• 1:06:29
  and briefly started reading it, and then I had to
• 1:06:31
  do something, and I put a bookmark to it that
• 1:06:33
  was going to go back to it later, and I
• 1:06:35
  never did. Okay.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: I thought you'd to say, like something happened to the
• 1:06:38
  book mark.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, wrong, No, I just never went back
• 1:06:42
  to it. But I remember during the COVID times, everybody
• 1:06:45
  was just like hand sanitizer everywhere. I'm like, I just
• 1:06:47
  don't think that can be good for you.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: You mean anything that's anti biotic, right, and that's killing
• 1:06:53
  biological life. Probably you want to be at least a
• 1:06:56
  little bit hesitant.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: With mostly well even alcohol going through your skin like that,
• 1:07:04
  uh isoprople alcohol sometimes used instead or with ethanol similar levels.
• 1:07:10
  And then this word benzal canoonium chloride in many alcohol
• 1:07:17
  free products. All right, but see if you can find
• 1:07:22
  articles on the dangers of using hand sanitizer, because this
• 1:07:28
  is what I had read briefly.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 6: Ah, just say, overuse it, You're gonna fuck up your
• 1:07:35
  skin bio. But I don't.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it's saying. Overused. I know, guy's got
• 1:07:41
  O C. D and he's you know, hypochondriact a little bit,
• 1:07:46
  and he uses hand sanitizer all the times, kind of crazy.
• 1:07:48
  And uh, a friend of mine, without knowing, went to
• 1:07:52
  look at his house because his house was for sale.
• 1:07:55
  And he's looking at the house. He's like, it was
• 1:07:57
  a very nice house. And he opens up a closet
• 1:07:59
  and one of the closets was filled with hand sanitizer
• 1:08:02
  and he got so freaked out he didn't want to
• 1:08:04
  live in the house anymore. He's like, I don't want
• 1:08:06
  to buy this house. Like this guy like whatever weird
• 1:08:09
  thing he's possessed with that he needs fifty thousand fucking
• 1:08:12
  bottles of hand sanitizer.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 5: Issues are just classic overuse.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 6: And then don't not use it on your hands obviously,
• 1:08:18
  don't breathe it, don't drink it, right, only.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: Use it on your hands.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but Jamie's right on the skin biome.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 4: Skin biomes staring out to be really important, Like there's
• 1:08:27
  you know, they call it the gut skin act exis
• 1:08:30
  where your skin microbiome and your gut microbiome are like
• 1:08:33
  chatting all the time, and you can change the composition
• 1:08:40
  of your skin microbiome based on all kinds of stuff
• 1:08:43
  like products, sign exposure.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: You know, everything you do. Probiotics, probiotics.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, in the jiu jitsu world in the early
• 1:08:54
  two thousands, people started really getting into probiotics. They started
• 1:08:58
  really getting into acidophilas, yogurt, kimchi, fermented vegetables and stuff
• 1:09:03
  like that just to prevent skin issues. Interesting because jiu jitsu,
• 1:09:08
  because you're you're getting scratched up and you're rolling around
• 1:09:11
  and there's a lot of infections and a lot of
• 1:09:13
  people get not just infections like staff infection, but they
• 1:09:17
  also get ringworm and a bunch of stuff like that.
• 1:09:19
  And so some people started using antibacterial soap and the
• 1:09:24
  problem with that is it just nukes all the good
• 1:09:26
  flora of your skin. So then there's a company called
• 1:09:29
  Defense Soap and they developed a soap specifically for grapplers,
• 1:09:34
  and this soap has tea tree oil and eucalyptus and
• 1:09:37
  it's very healthy for the skin. So it promotes healthy
• 1:09:40
  gut flora. But it does kill all the cooties. It
• 1:09:44
  kills all the matt cooties.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's I think that's basically what you want.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: Like that microbiome.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 4: It can take a lot of natural, you know, abuse,
• 1:09:53
  it's there it you know, it naturally lives on skin,
• 1:09:56
  so it's usually getting like roughed up by the world.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: Two chemicals that are too strong can take it out.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: And the gut flora is important as well. It's like,
• 1:10:07
  you got to think of the whole thing as one
• 1:10:10
  sort of ecosystem, your whole body. It all works together.
• 1:10:14
  And if your gut biome is all fucked up and
• 1:10:17
  you don't have healthy gut flora, it can affect all
• 1:10:20
  sorts of different issues.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it shows up on the skin for sure.
• 1:10:24
  That's that's well known.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: So when you first started getting pushback against this, did
• 1:10:31
  were you surprised to upset? You? Like, what did it
• 1:10:34
  feel like to get attacked by dermatologists?
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 4: I am naturally conflict a verse, Right, that was kind
• 1:10:40
  of do I even want to talk about this? But
• 1:10:41
  it was such interesting information one that was important, so
• 1:10:44
  I wanted to it started. I wrote an article for
• 1:10:47
  Outside back in like twenty eighteen, and I titled it
• 1:10:51
  is sunscreened the new Margarine Right, ooh, right there, that's
• 1:10:57
  pushing buttons. Yeah, I probably you know in retrospect, I
• 1:11:00
  don't push as many buttons today.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: I just pointed the data.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: You just didn't like it. Didn't like the response.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean it got massives, but it went truly
• 1:11:08
  you know, viral, as they used to say, but it
• 1:11:12
  actually detracted. Like now, I think I think those old
• 1:11:16
  sunscreens really were like margarine detrimental, like the ones that
• 1:11:20
  only blocked UVB. So I think I kind of got
• 1:11:23
  it right. But also it's like the title detracted from
• 1:11:26
  the information in.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: The article in a sense.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: But why because margin sucks.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 4: Margin sucks. Those old sunscreens did suck. The new sunscreens are,
• 1:11:34
  They're fine, But so it's a good comparison.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: It turns out to have been.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Like the more we learn about those old sunscreens,
• 1:11:40
  the more it looks like a sort of like a
• 1:11:42
  catastrophic mistake that then got fixed. But but yeah, so
• 1:11:48
  that like, so now the books is out. Suddenly I've
• 1:11:53
  got all these like beauty magazines contacting me, and they
• 1:11:57
  have this image of me as like you know, the unibomber,
• 1:12:02
  like hanging out, hanging out in my cabin and firing
• 1:12:06
  off these missives.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: Really, yeah, from a beauty magazine.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 4: They were nervous to talk to me because they thought
• 1:12:12
  I was going to be you know, a kook a kook.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah wow. So the first start So those is sunscreen
• 1:12:20
  the new margin. So that was the first one. And
• 1:12:23
  what was the response to that? So like, would do
• 1:12:26
  you remember the first like really negative response and how
• 1:12:29
  you felt about it?
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 4: So yeah, so there was official letter from the the AAD,
• 1:12:34
  uh like, you know, we and you know, they're very
• 1:12:37
  they're very polite, but they're like, here, we we we
• 1:12:40
  think this is misrepresenting, you know, the information, and this
• 1:12:45
  is and we think this is dangerous. If you're telling
• 1:12:47
  people that they might benefit from more sunlight, that's dangerous.
• 1:12:53
  So that's probably And then you know, when that came in,
• 1:12:56
  I was like, so that needs to change. If if
• 1:12:58
  we haven't in our heads that exposure to any sunshine
• 1:13:01
  is dangerous, we you know, we're not seeing the forest
• 1:13:04
  for the trees.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: We've lost the thread on this one.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 4: So then so I did a much of other article.
• 1:13:09
  I did one an article that focused specifically on the
• 1:13:12
  skin color issue, like do people of color do we
• 1:13:18
  need to stop telling people of color that they need
• 1:13:19
  to protect themselves from the sun. And then I did
• 1:13:23
  a couple more recently for The Atlantic just on like
• 1:13:30
  what should recommendations, How do we can we do recommendations
• 1:13:32
  that are not one size fits all.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: Well, skin color in particular is one of the best
• 1:13:38
  signs of adaptation to environment. I mean, that's how human
• 1:13:41
  beings were able to get vitamin D from the sun
• 1:13:45
  in a place like Scotland. When people moved there, they
• 1:13:48
  got pale as shit, you know, makes sense.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you can track it is like the gradations
• 1:13:55
  of lightning go with that move northward, so you could
• 1:13:59
  tell like white skin is like a desperate attempt to
• 1:14:02
  get enough light in a you know, screwy northern environment.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: Right, But when those people that have ancestors from that
• 1:14:09
  screwy northern environment moved to California or Arizona for Australia, Yeah,
• 1:14:15
  and Australia is real bad, right because there's all the
• 1:14:18
  people that use hairspray in the eighties. It cause fuck
• 1:14:22
  a giant hole in the ozone layer over Australia.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, essentially, Yeah, Australia.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: When I was there, they have these signs on buses,
• 1:14:31
  like these warnings that show skin cancer, like these horrible
• 1:14:35
  lesions on people's faces and stuff, and it's just just
• 1:14:38
  warning to wear sunscreen. And checked yourself.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: They're right for that.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 4: Like that's the textbook case where you've got a horrible
• 1:14:45
  mismatch between the population and the place, like super super
• 1:14:49
  high levels of sunshine in Australia, we goo zone like
• 1:14:54
  redheads from Scotland because we are trying to deal so
• 1:14:58
  like their skin cancer rais are literally like two or
• 1:15:01
  three times what they are anywhere else in the world.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: Wow, Now, how much of that is because of the
• 1:15:05
  skin color of the general Australian population other than the
• 1:15:09
  indigenous people, And how much of it is because the ozone.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 4: So those zone is healing itself slowly, We're getting there,
• 1:15:17
  so that's probably less of an issue now.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: It's really it's.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 4: A really fair skin population in a like super bright,
• 1:15:25
  intense environment, so they do need to worry about it.
• 1:15:28
  But the problem is the rest of the world has
• 1:15:30
  kind of set its like rules about sun exposure based
• 1:15:33
  on Australia.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: What's interesting also about Australia is like I wonder how
• 1:15:38
  long it takes for human adaptation to start to show itself,
• 1:15:43
  Like do you think, like in one hundred thousand years
• 1:15:46
  from now people that live in Australia will be dark?
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 4: Well, David Reich had did that great episode with you, right,
• 1:15:53
  did you have David reik on? David Reich, he's the
• 1:15:59
  Harvard Ancient DNA guy, did we No? So he So
• 1:16:06
  he just came out with a new study like so
• 1:16:08
  many people, and I remember, I can't do It's like
• 1:16:12
  if I didn't hear here where I heard anyway, It
• 1:16:16
  just uh, that movement started a few thousand years ago. Suddenly,
• 1:16:22
  like the that pale redhead gene came out of nowhere
• 1:16:25
  and like skyrocketed. So it can change pretty quickly when
• 1:16:29
  the environmental factors changed.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: Really, that's that's only a few thousand years old.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: The red headed gene.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean it was kind of like lingering
• 1:16:40
  quietly in the background.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: And then like maybe that's why gingers get so much
• 1:16:43
  hate because they're just brand new.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: They are they are like the next new thing.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 4: But yeah, four or five thousand years ago it suddenly
• 1:16:52
  explodes in popularity, but in a very particular place in
• 1:16:56
  northern Europe.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: Oh and most likely as a result to the environment.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah for one hundred percent.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: Wow, So I wonder how long it's going to take.
• 1:17:05
  I wonder if we could go into the future and
• 1:17:07
  if the same population lives in Australia.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 4: Now, well, I accept here's the weird thing. Like, so
• 1:17:14
  Australians versus UK, right, similar genetics. Australia super high rates
• 1:17:21
  of skin cancer because of that sun environment, but also
• 1:17:25
  way better lifespan than in the UK. Really, so skin
• 1:17:29
  cancer is a factor, but that sunlight is actually benefiting
• 1:17:33
  Australians more than it's hurting them compared to the UK.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: Hmm. I wonder if it's a I wonder if that's
• 1:17:39
  a healthy user bias as well, because one of the
• 1:17:42
  things about Australia is a lot of outdoor activities. A
• 1:17:45
  lot of people are doing stuff outside, yeah, and a
• 1:17:48
  lot of activity period.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 4: And that could be a factor. And actually that's one
• 1:17:52
  thing I come you know, come down to in the
• 1:17:54
  book is it's really hard to disentangle all of these factors.
• 1:17:58
  But what's really obvious is just outside good, too much
• 1:18:03
  inside bad? Yeah, So whatever, like, you don't even have
• 1:18:07
  to like break it down too much more outside covered up,
• 1:18:11
  whatever you want, it is probably gonna be good for you.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: One of the things a friend of mine who's the doctor,
• 1:18:15
  said that he when he was working in New York
• 1:18:18
  City in the winter time, he would find people with
• 1:18:21
  undetectable levels of vitamin D. Yeah, and he said it
• 1:18:24
  was a particular problem with people with darker skin because
• 1:18:27
  if we have darker skin, you're gonna get less vitamin
• 1:18:29
  D from the sun for whatever exposure you do get.
• 1:18:32
  And then these people are all indoors all the time.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a really bad formula. Like, yeah, if you
• 1:18:38
  have dark skin, you need five to time five to
• 1:18:41
  ten times as much sunlight to make the same amount
• 1:18:44
  of vitamin D. So you're really if you have really
• 1:18:47
  dark skin, you're kind of designed for a very bright
• 1:18:50
  tropical environment.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: Where you're where you're outside all the time.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: Outside all the time.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 4: You can handle twelve hours a day of sunshine and
• 1:18:57
  in fact you're gonna benefit from it. You get moved
• 1:19:00
  to a really dark environment, that's not going to be
• 1:19:03
  good for you, so you probably need to compensate in
• 1:19:06
  other ways.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: It's going to be very interesting when genetic engineering reaches
• 1:19:12
  a level where we can turn those things on and
• 1:19:14
  off in people. And how do people react to fair
• 1:19:20
  skinned people all of a sudden getting dark like like
• 1:19:25
  you know, like, well, we are one race, we are
• 1:19:29
  we're the human race. There's a bunch of different ancestors,
• 1:19:33
  where people came from different areas, where they adapted to
• 1:19:35
  different environments. But the reality is we're just human beings
• 1:19:39
  and we all started in Ethiopia and we spread out
• 1:19:42
  and that's just what we are. We are the result
• 1:19:45
  of whatever environment our ancestors evolved in.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 4: And with with skin tone, it's clearly like very very
• 1:19:53
  specific reactions to that environment and try and figure out
• 1:19:55
  what's best in each situation.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: But there's so much racial identity that's tied that's tied
• 1:20:02
  to these characteristics of your appearance and where your ancestors
• 1:20:06
  are from. And it's going to be very weird if
• 1:20:09
  all of a sudden, you could, like people get like dark, thick,
• 1:20:12
  curly hair and there used to be gingers. I wonder
• 1:20:16
  how people get to react to that.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's coming, right, right.
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: It's coming. Yeah. I just wonder how many people are
• 1:20:25
  going to be claiming cultural or racial appropriation with people
• 1:20:29
  just deciding to have a healthier skin tone that protects
• 1:20:33
  him from the sun.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 4: One I say, where you yeah, yeah, well yeah.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: Like that guy with the melanotan. I wonder I wonder
• 1:20:41
  if anybody got mad at.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 4: Him, right, right, like like, what are you supposed to
• 1:20:46
  look like?
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah? What are you supposed to look like? Yeah?
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: There was a lady that was on a television show
• 1:20:52
  once that was turning herself black. It was in the UK,
• 1:20:55
  and this lady looked she looked like she had other issues.
• 1:20:58
  So a giant breast implant. She looked like a kook,
• 1:21:01
  a bunch of plastic surgery. But she was dark as
• 1:21:04
  a date. Like that lady. That's a white lady. So
• 1:21:11
  that's what she used to look like. And she's getting
• 1:21:14
  her boobs bigger and bigger. She wants them bigger, and
• 1:21:16
  so look she keeps getting Maybe.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: That's her, that's her.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: So what did she do via intense use of tanning injections? Yeah,
• 1:21:26
  so she's she's the ultimate Melanitan hero. Wow, I mean
• 1:21:33
  that guy that lady got like cameroon dark, Like look
• 1:21:37
  at that photo again, go back to that video, like
• 1:21:41
  that's crazy, is crazy, that's crazy.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe you're in Australia, it works for you.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: Uh maybe well it would, right, it would protect because
• 1:21:51
  it is melanin. But obviously she's got she's got other
• 1:21:55
  things going on.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 4: Like yeah, at some point you might might might have
• 1:21:59
  too much mal well. So here's the funny thing about
• 1:22:01
  melanin as well. So it's made by our melanocytes, which
• 1:22:06
  are what can become melanoma if they get screwed up,
• 1:22:08
  and those are in the very bottom of the epidermis,
• 1:22:11
  the outer layer of the skin. And it's an incredibly
• 1:22:15
  good absorber of UV, better than anything we've come up with.
• 1:22:18
  It's almost perfect at it. But what you want when
• 1:22:23
  your skin gets hit with sunlight that melanin that's just
• 1:22:26
  been produced is at the bottom of the epidermis where
• 1:22:29
  the melanocytes are, so it has to migrate to the
• 1:22:32
  surface and then it kind of acts like little umbrellas,
• 1:22:35
  like it'll like cover the nucleus of the cell and
• 1:22:37
  protect it. So you get these little like umbrellas, a
• 1:22:40
  line of umbrellas on the very top of your epidermis.
• 1:22:43
  But it has to migrate up because of sunlight. If
• 1:22:47
  melanin is lower in your skin, then it's going to
• 1:22:49
  absorb all that radiation farther down, and actually it can
• 1:22:54
  cause more for your radicals deeper in the skin.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: And what would cause it to be lower.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 4: So it starts low and it only goes up in
• 1:23:02
  response to sunlight. So if you're never ever in the
• 1:23:05
  sun and you suddenly go out and get hit by
• 1:23:10
  a bunch of sunlight, your melon's going to be down
• 1:23:13
  too low and can actually create for you.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: It can exacerbate the problem.
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: So this lady might be exacerbating the problem if he's
• 1:23:21
  just just getting the melanins that way.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I don't know, because I don't know about
• 1:23:25
  this specifically, but you probably. Yeah, you don't want to
• 1:23:28
  just be like messing around with melanin like I said
• 1:23:33
  that she is.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: Oh boy, that's interesting because like the milanoitan stuff, I
• 1:23:39
  have heard about it before and I never really looked
• 1:23:42
  into it. But the idea kind of makes sense that
• 1:23:45
  if you can make your body produce more melanin, that
• 1:23:48
  would protect yourself. But I didn't realize that it has
• 1:23:51
  to be melanin from sun exposure.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: You want it in the right place.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, could both things work? Could you do it that
• 1:23:59
  way with sun exposure increase increase both And would it
• 1:24:04
  would it give some sort of a benefit to have
• 1:24:07
  a higher level of melanin that could eventually get to
• 1:24:10
  the surface of the skin. Does that make any sense?
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 4: You're above my pay grade now, Like I think you
• 1:24:14
  might be above everybody's pay grade.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't know if anyone has looked at that.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: They seem it seems like something to look into though.
• 1:24:19
  If we know that there's a benefit to having melanin, yeah.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: It mean be interesting.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 4: But I think the stuff's new enough that there probably
• 1:24:25
  hasn't been a ton of research on it.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: So what does a pale person do? What does the
• 1:24:31
  old pasty white do? Yeah?
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: So full pasty white, like really pale.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like my friend I have a friend is my
• 1:24:39
  my daughter said he's white And I said she was
• 1:24:41
  really little and I go, yeah, she goes, no, no, no,
• 1:24:43
  he's white like paper.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 4: You do have to be really careful. You're not going
• 1:24:52
  to tay on that much. You just don't make that
• 1:24:54
  much melanin.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: Can that change over time? Can they like slowly expose
• 1:24:59
  themselves to the sunlight like five minutes a day and
• 1:25:03
  just ramp it up?
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 4: Depend if it depends on your genetics. If you're like
• 1:25:09
  a full on ginger like true redhead, then you have
• 1:25:15
  a type of melanin called feo melanin, not you melanin,
• 1:25:18
  which is what everybody else has, and feo melanin just
• 1:25:21
  does not do a good job of starting sunlight.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: Oh no, so you use no hope for gingers.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: There's no hope for gingers in terms of sun exposure.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: Damn.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 4: The hope is just you know, avoid that midday sun
• 1:25:33
  that's on UV. Get the morning and like the sunrise
• 1:25:37
  and sunset stuff that doesn't have the UV in it.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, so they can benefit from sun exposure, but they
• 1:25:43
  can't have like full on outdoor sun exposure.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're the ones who need to be really careful.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: So for those people, sunscreens are commanded.
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or or just cover up even I think better.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: You know, how many other people are working on this stuff,
• 1:26:00
  and is everybody sort of in agreement with the data
• 1:26:02
  the people that are examining it.
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 4: I mean, there's a ton of science coming out, but
• 1:26:08
  it's it's early days for sure.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: Doesn't it seem crazy that sun and our reaction to
• 1:26:16
  sun is unknown or at least poorly studied.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, but it's amazing how many things
• 1:26:24
  in medicine, you know, you dive into the research and
• 1:26:28
  you dig down a little and you realize that we're
• 1:26:31
  just kind of guessing still on many levels.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: Like it's early days for a lot of this stuff.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: Well, certainly for like stuff that they use for antidepressants.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 4: Sun exposure is competitive with antidepressants in terms of lifting depression.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: Isn't that nuts? And you know it's way better exercise. Yeah,
• 1:26:54
  many times better than any known antidepressants, regular exercise.
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: I mean exercise number one for everything.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 6: Cross ginger people with melot the peptide here, mm hmm,
• 1:27:05
  seeing if you post about it changing their hair color?
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: Interesting and what?
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Click on that.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I guess it just takes it to the reddit.
• 1:27:14
  It's just going to show YouTube video here.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 6: But there's multiple change his hair color, other posts about it. Whoa,
• 1:27:22
  and there's a I was just seeing that one.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: If that would work with people that are old that
• 1:27:27
  have like white hair? Won what that one?
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 6: Like a melow nine and two page says like how
• 1:27:33
  it can affect hair color?
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 5: No, I read through it real quick. At this is
• 1:27:37
  not the best website.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: Isn't it weird that women with red hair are hot
• 1:27:42
  and men with red hair are not. It's very very
• 1:27:46
  weird because women with red hair are considered very attractive.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 5: Yeah, this one's this guy's got spray tan.
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, but the people that take it that one guy
• 1:27:58
  is he like a one of one or a change
• 1:28:00
  his hair color.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 5: So that just like I said, so this website.
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: Click on that, click on the video. Let's watch it
• 1:28:05
  for a couple of seconds. See what this guy's showing.
• 1:28:09
  So this is him before and this is him now.
• 1:28:12
  His eyebrow and his beard colors changed.
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 6: Also we clicked on. It might not even be him.
• 1:28:17
  He could be reporting the video about someone else too.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 3: So before I got all gray.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: And my hair's got it looks pretty good.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, lying by the side of the road gray. He
• 1:28:28
  actually used to be ginger.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 3: I was bullied a lot as a kid because I
• 1:28:33
  was ginger. I was weird, and I was chubby. That's
• 1:28:36
  the winning trio for being infections from this going through
• 1:28:39
  a lot of changes out here down there, you know,
• 1:28:43
  the stuff that happens during purity. So I didn't immediately
• 1:28:46
  notice that my hair had gotten much darker. It was
• 1:28:49
  actually all people asking me what the hell I had
• 1:28:52
  done to my hairline. You know, on this picture it's
• 1:28:55
  probably much clearer. That's a picture of me and my brother.
• 1:28:59
  We have the same netics in regards of skin color
• 1:29:02
  and the color of her hair. And as you can see,
• 1:29:04
  my hair is not completely different from his views to
• 1:29:07
  have the same skin and the same hair, especially the color. Now,
• 1:29:11
  this is only from using one vial of melanotantu in
• 1:29:14
  the span of a year, even more than a year,
• 1:29:17
  and it was at low dosages. But with our genetics
• 1:29:21
  of big, tall white ginger Belgian gingers, it completely changed
• 1:29:27
  the color of my hair and my skin and the
• 1:29:29
  effects were very strong.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: So the effects are permanent. So he still has dark hair.
• 1:29:35
  But what's interesting is that in the beginning he had
• 1:29:37
  gray hair.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 5: It seems older obviously, right.
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: Right, but he had gray he was showing and his
• 1:29:42
  hair is not.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: Gray anymore, right, I mean gray gray, yeah.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: Gray and ginger gray.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 4: As a loss of melony like melons would make your
• 1:29:52
  hair dark as well as your skin dark. So he's
• 1:29:55
  resupplied his melonin for his hair as well.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: It seems like that seems kind of nuts.
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 5: He said, one vial for a year, even all over.
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: The year, right, so for a year. So his skin
• 1:30:06
  has gotten pale again, but his hair is permanently dark.
• 1:30:10
  So that's what he used to look like. He had
• 1:30:11
  red hair. He had a red beard, and he had
• 1:30:13
  gray hair, his hair had gone gray, and now his
• 1:30:17
  hair is dark. I gotta know if this guy's full
• 1:30:20
  of shit.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 5: That's again it's like there's one, only one person saying.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the problem. It's like you don't know what
• 1:30:26
  you're looking at. But that's crazy, but it is.
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, melon is the pigment for all of it.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: Put that in. Does melo melowtonan? How does it say it?
• 1:30:35
  How do you say it? Melanot melonotan? Does melanotan have
• 1:30:39
  an effect on hair color? Put that into perplexity? See
• 1:30:42
  what they say?
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, what does it saying?
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: Because I know a lot of people with gray hair.
• 1:30:51
  That bums them out and they dye it and ship
• 1:30:54
  and that can't be good for you. You're putting fucking dye
• 1:30:56
  in your hair.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: I'm stuck with the gray hair.
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: I think, oh, mine would be gray if I had hair.
• 1:31:02
  It's all gray in my beard now it's gray. I'm
• 1:31:05
  gonna try it. I'm gonna try some mellow tennan and
• 1:31:08
  see if I get dangerous boners. Melana tan does not
• 1:31:13
  have good human evidence of changing scalp or body hair color.
• 1:31:17
  Its main effect is on skin tanning and freckling, not
• 1:31:19
  on turning hair darker or lighter. But how's that guy?
• 1:31:23
  Maybe he's like a just a weird case.
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I just gotta be a hormone dependent.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: What about the lady with the giant boobs? She had
• 1:31:34
  dark hair.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 6: Too, she's saying when I was looking through her thing,
• 1:31:37
  it was so she went through a permanent tanning process.
• 1:31:41
  So I don't know she would be extreme dosages.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: But her Instagram.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 5: Account is a mess. If it's even hers, it's the
• 1:31:49
  one that Google showed me.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 4: What's what's the erection connection? I don't understand how you know? Yeah, melanic.
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: Erection connection. I have heard that though actually bring them
• 1:32:02
  from ways to well. The local wellness clinic was telling
• 1:32:04
  me about that that some people have crazy erections because
• 1:32:08
  of milanatan. Yeah, like what how? And some people don't
• 1:32:12
  like that. One guy that had taken it, he said,
• 1:32:14
  didn't affect him that way, but maybe maybe he's broken.
• 1:32:22
  Does it say anything about melanaitan causes bonus? Okay, it
• 1:32:28
  can increase libido and trigger erections in some men, but
• 1:32:32
  it's not approved for well, I know it's unapproved. How
• 1:32:35
  does it affect it stimulates Milano cortin Milano cortin receptors
• 1:32:42
  in the brain which are involved in sexual arousal and
• 1:32:45
  erection control, not just tanning controlled tiles controlled trotchies. I
• 1:32:50
  can't talk today. Subcutaneous milanaitan two caused erections in most
• 1:32:55
  men with a rectile dysfunction, often without sexual stimulation. Same
• 1:33:00
  studies found increased sexual desire in a majority of doses
• 1:33:04
  compared with placebo. Hmm, interesting, I wonder what the connection is.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 4: It's the milana court and like you said that the
• 1:33:15
  four R up there, so yeah, MC one R is
• 1:33:21
  the gene for.
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: That could determines whether you've got the red.
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: Hair or this. Common side effects were yawning, nausea, yawning
• 1:33:33
  and stretching, flushing with decreased appetite. Some participants had severe
• 1:33:37
  nausea at higher doses.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 2: Yawning and sexual desire is an interesting combination.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's weird. Yeah, I'm really horny, but I'm too
• 1:33:44
  tired of doing anything about.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 6: Hypoactive sexual desire for pre menopausal women.
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Interesting also shows a rectogengenic I like that word.
• 1:33:59
  Arec dogenic effects in men with ed in, including those
• 1:34:04
  who fail pd E five inhibitors. One of that was
• 1:34:10
  a pd E five inhibitor interesting. Someone should someone out
• 1:34:18
  there with gray hair should give it a go. Find
• 1:34:20
  out up doesn't sound like other than dealing with boners,
• 1:34:24
  doesn't seem like there's any real problems. I keep going
• 1:34:29
  back to this you getting attacked thing, and I don't
• 1:34:32
  understand how someone could attack you with the data that
• 1:34:36
  you're showing, because like it's you're not making any dangerous
• 1:34:41
  or you know, any claims or any You're not advising
• 1:34:47
  people do anything that's reckless.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I mean I purposefully have sort of I
• 1:34:53
  really haven't. I basically tell people to figure it out
• 1:34:56
  for themselves, right, But it's only small amounts of sun
• 1:35:00
  exposure that seem to be necessary to get most of
• 1:35:04
  the benefits. Like the jump isn't going from zero to
• 1:35:07
  some it's you don't. You don't need it a lot.
• 1:35:10
  Nobody really needs a lot unless you have a really
• 1:35:12
  dark skin, then you can probably get away with a lot.
• 1:35:15
  So yeah, just a little bit of sun exposure doesn't
• 1:35:18
  seem like a crazy recommendation. But it's just because the
• 1:35:23
  messaging has been sort of so extreme and unyielding, like
• 1:35:27
  they've worked for so hard to sort of scare people
• 1:35:33
  away from any sun exposure that I think backing that
• 1:35:38
  up a little bit is sort of uncomfortable, you know.
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: I understand, But I mean, isn't history filled with new
• 1:35:46
  discoveries and changing courses?
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think it'll change, but one it's gonna
• 1:35:53
  be one funeral at a time.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gonna be ugly all the way.
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: When you do this kind of work, Like, have you
• 1:36:00
  discovered any other things that people thought were unhealthy that
• 1:36:03
  turned out to actually probably be good for you at
• 1:36:06
  least afuse correctly.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a good question.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 4: So the one, like the metaphor that I think we're
• 1:36:12
  all familiar with and that I think maps pretty perfectly
• 1:36:15
  here is.
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: Diet and fat.
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 4: Right, like twenty you know, twenty five years ago, Gary
• 1:36:24
  Tobbs does that article in the New York Times magazine
• 1:36:26
  what a fat Doesn't make You fat? And we were
• 1:36:28
  still back in that era of you know, carbs cut
• 1:36:33
  all the fat out of your diet. Carbs are good
• 1:36:35
  for you margin right, the margin era. They the top
• 1:36:39
  experts got it one hundred percent wrong back then, and
• 1:36:43
  when they got called on it by like you know,
• 1:36:45
  Tobbs and others, mena titles you guys have haden on.
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: I've had tobs on as well.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, okay, you know, they fought hard and they
• 1:36:54
  were totally wrong and we now, you know, we've we flipped.
• 1:36:58
  But it took a long time, and you know, there
• 1:37:00
  was a little little blood in the water during that process.
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. I was in the early days of that
• 1:37:05
  and people were just warning me about my cholesterol. What
• 1:37:09
  about your cholesterol. Yeah. What's really interesting is during the
• 1:37:13
  heart of that, when I you know, I had a
• 1:37:15
  lot of meat, My diets mostly meat, and I went
• 1:37:18
  to the doctor and I got all my levels checked
• 1:37:20
  and he said, are you on some anti cholesterol medication?
• 1:37:24
  I said no, why And he goes, you're very low cholesterol. Interesting,
• 1:37:28
  it's weird. And I go, dude, if you saw my diet,
• 1:37:32
  my diets like mostly meat and eggs and bacon, that's
• 1:37:36
  like a giant percentage of my diet. I thought that
• 1:37:39
  was really interesting.
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 4: I think I mean, yeah, I think the eviance is
• 1:37:44
  pretty good. Like for Keto, I think it's pretty strosstality,
• 1:37:47
  you know, I think is pretty much spot on and
• 1:37:49
  a lot of this stuff. But so yeah, so that
• 1:37:53
  like the ultimate experts all said that was going to
• 1:37:57
  kill you. You know, Atkins back in the day, and
• 1:38:00
  they were all completely wrong. So there's a you know,
• 1:38:06
  there's a long track record of the pros being wrong
• 1:38:08
  I think on a lot of things. But that's a
• 1:38:09
  really good example, and people can wrap their heads around
• 1:38:11
  that one because we now I think a lot of
• 1:38:13
  people understand that low carb really works well for them.
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: I mean they completely flip the food pyramid.
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 4: Right, which was a beautiful thing to do and I
• 1:38:21
  can't believe it happened so fast.
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, also with very little pushback. It's kind of
• 1:38:26
  interesting because the evidence had already compounded to the fact
• 1:38:30
  that listen, for sure, margarine is not a good thing,
• 1:38:33
  it's not a good substruct but also that all these
• 1:38:36
  healthy fats that you're getting from milk that you're getting
• 1:38:39
  from eggs. Eggs in particular, we've been told eggs are
• 1:38:42
  bad for you, the cholesterol and eggs. Eggs. You could
• 1:38:45
  live off just.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: Eggs, Yeah, probably the perfect food.
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like eggs are fantastic. I always tell my friends
• 1:38:50
  that are vegans. I was like, listen, man, just get
• 1:38:53
  some chickens and they're your pets and they give you
• 1:38:55
  free food. It's like I have sixteen chickens now, and
• 1:39:00
  I get eggs every day. And these chickens are pets,
• 1:39:03
  Like I go, hey, ladies, you know, I feed them,
• 1:39:06
  I throw the worms down. They're not afraid of me.
• 1:39:08
  They listen to me. When I open the door, they
• 1:39:11
  come running out and they run it around the yard.
• 1:39:14
  It's like a great relationship. You get free food, you
• 1:39:17
  take care of them, You feed them, and they eat
• 1:39:20
  all the bugs in your yard, and you get these delicious,
• 1:39:23
  healthy eggs from them.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: With those beautiful orange yet.
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you're worried about if it's an ethical thing,
• 1:39:28
  you don't want animal cruelty, and good for you, that's
• 1:39:32
  a wonderful way to live, but you are sacrificing your
• 1:39:36
  health by not eating pasture raised eggs. Just get the
• 1:39:40
  real ones, not the bullshit ones, the real ones. Unfortunately
• 1:39:44
  they're tricking people. Now. Some companies have been exposed for
• 1:39:49
  feeding their chickens turmeric. They feed them curcumin and turmeric,
• 1:39:55
  and they make it because it makes their eggs a darker,
• 1:39:59
  more attractive oak.
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 4: I know, right, Well, it's like it's it's so screwy,
• 1:40:05
  so so bizarrely backwards it.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: Is, but isn't turmeric good for you, And wouldn't turmeric
• 1:40:10
  that you're getting from those eggs also be good for you.
• 1:40:13
  It's like, yeah, it can't hurt, I mean, right, So
• 1:40:16
  it's not like they're getting them food dye, so you
• 1:40:18
  know what I mean. So it's like, yeah, you're getting
• 1:40:20
  these darker eggs because people like that, and the darker
• 1:40:23
  eggs come from turmeric or turmeric. But yeah, still you're
• 1:40:29
  getting turmeric then, aren't you. It was in that how
• 1:40:32
  it works.
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's fine, But I think the chicken I
• 1:40:35
  think like it's the bugs that sometimes help help turn them, aren't. Yeah,
• 1:40:38
  we get we get eggs from our neighbor, like in Vermont, everybody, right,
• 1:40:41
  there's chickens like running around the road everywhere, and yeah,
• 1:40:46
  they're delicious. Yeah, you can tell that they're getting it
• 1:40:49
  from the bugs and the greens and m Yeah.
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 1: And it's super healthy. I mean, but that that color
• 1:40:55
  of things is also why they dye farm raised salmon,
• 1:40:59
  which is really gross. So salmon are getting that from
• 1:41:03
  bugs in particular.
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, little arthropods, yeah, like miniature shrimp kind of.
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why they have that wonderful looking pink skin
• 1:41:12
  that Yeah, orange pink skin.
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: So in that case, the dye is maybe a little
• 1:41:16
  more suspect.
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the dye is very suspect because it's like,
• 1:41:19
  you know, these farm raised salmon, they have pale skin
• 1:41:22
  because they're eating bullshit. Yeah, you know.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: Are there any other things that you've stumbled across that
• 1:41:30
  turned out to be good for you that people were
• 1:41:32
  averse to?
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 4: I'm still curious about alcohol. You know how everything is
• 1:41:35
  flipped on alcohol, Like first it was like drink or
• 1:41:38
  two a day is good for you, and then suddenly
• 1:41:40
  they flipped like a year or two ago, and say
• 1:41:43
  any amount of alcohol is bad for you. I looked
• 1:41:46
  at I looked at into those studies, and it seems
• 1:41:51
  like the takeaway really should have been, you know, modern
• 1:41:55
  drinking doesn't do much of anything to you, Like maybe
• 1:41:58
  it makes is slightly good for you or slightly that
• 1:42:00
  for you, but for like a drink a day or
• 1:42:03
  like one to two a day, I didn't seem to
• 1:42:07
  have a whole lot of impact on mortality at all.
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: And also probably reduces a little bit of stress, right,
• 1:42:15
  you get it, a little bit of social anxiety, and
• 1:42:18
  that alone is really beneficial. Like how do you feel
• 1:42:22
  like are you happy or are you stressed out? Sometimes
• 1:42:25
  a drink or two you like, ah, fuck it, we're fine.
• 1:42:28
  Everything's good. Like that alone has benefits, like what it
• 1:42:32
  does to your mood, that it's a social lubricant. It
• 1:42:35
  allow you to like maybe laugh a little bit more,
• 1:42:38
  have a little bit more fun.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: Tyl which is why I can't give it up.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 4: Like that social environment is a really nice environment to
• 1:42:44
  be in, you know, and if you know, a couple
• 1:42:46
  of beers helps make that happen, it's a good thing.
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 1: I gave it up for about eight months. I completely
• 1:42:52
  problem is I own a comedy club and I was
• 1:42:54
  there a lot, and so everybody's like, have a drink,
• 1:42:57
  have a drink, let's do shots, and then next thing
• 1:42:59
  you know, you look. I was in the gym the
• 1:43:00
  next day feeling like shit. I got tired of doing
• 1:43:02
  that to myself, and so I said, I'm just gonna
• 1:43:04
  stop drinking. Not because I'm an alcoholic. Wasn't hard to stop.
• 1:43:08
  It was super easy. I just stopped, and then I
• 1:43:10
  started feeling way better. I was like, God, why was
• 1:43:13
  I drinking for so long? It was just so bad.
• 1:43:15
  And then out to dinner with my wife, had a margarita.
• 1:43:18
  Like eight months later, I'm like, let's have a drink.
• 1:43:20
  She wasn't drinking either. I'm like, let's have a drink,
• 1:43:22
  and like this is nice. I like it. So now
• 1:43:25
  I limit myself. I just I won't have more than
• 1:43:27
  like two drinks. Two drinks is kind of my math.
• 1:43:30
  But two drinks is right. Two drinks is like we
• 1:43:33
  as long as you don't have to drive, you're not
• 1:43:34
  going anywhere. You know, If I go to the club,
• 1:43:36
  I'm there for hours, Yeah, completely sober. After it's all over,
• 1:43:40
  it's like I wake up in the morning, I don't
• 1:43:41
  feel like shit, doesn't seem to be affecting my workouts. However,
• 1:43:46
  if you wear a whoop or an Ora ring or
• 1:43:49
  one of those tracking devices, you will notice in your
• 1:43:52
  sleep and your recovery, you're not sleep as well. You
• 1:43:55
  don't sleep as well, you don't get the same deep
• 1:43:57
  sleep I can tell. Yeah, just one glass of wine
• 1:44:01
  can fuck you up a little bit.
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that for me that hit in middle age.
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 4: Like before that wasn't a problem, but now, yeah, like
• 1:44:08
  two drinks two does seem to be the cutoff where
• 1:44:11
  you know, life functions normally still, But yeah, the sleep's
• 1:44:15
  not as restorative.
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 1: Somehow, somehow. But I wonder if it's the timing of
• 1:44:20
  when you're drinking. So I wonder if you have like
• 1:44:23
  a glass of wine at dinner at like six o'clock,
• 1:44:25
  but you don't go to bed till midnight, I wonder
• 1:44:28
  then your body has a chance to process it and
• 1:44:31
  then you're okay.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 4: Well that Italian style, right, Like I feel like the
• 1:44:34
  Mediterranean lifestyle, they got this pretty much nailed down, like
• 1:44:38
  two thousand years ago, right, it seems to work pretty well.
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: Which also brings us back to food, right, because the
• 1:44:45
  way they eat is so it's so interesting how thin
• 1:44:48
  they are and yet they mostly carbs.
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: I know, I know something's different there.
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: A lot's different, and we know what it is now.
• 1:44:56
  We know that there's a lot of additives and preservatives.
• 1:44:59
  And also like they don't use glyphyssate, and they have
• 1:45:03
  heirloom wheat, so they have wheat that hasn't been optimized
• 1:45:06
  to have a higher yield, so it doesn't have as
• 1:45:08
  much complex wheat glutens. And there's a lot of issues
• 1:45:11
  with our food unfortunately. And if you eat American bread,
• 1:45:15
  you know the bromine, all the different additives, all the
• 1:45:18
  shit that we put in our food. That's so disturbing.
• 1:45:21
  Whenever I go to Italy, I'm so angry that when
• 1:45:24
  I come back home, I can't have food like this,
• 1:45:27
  Like you have to seek it out. You have to
• 1:45:28
  go to like certain restaurants that only use like Italian flower.
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, you look at those Mediterranean cultures and
• 1:45:38
  it just works for them. And yeah, like you say,
• 1:45:41
  it's you can't explain it in terms of like macro
• 1:45:43
  nutrients or anything like that, Like it's something there's something
• 1:45:48
  like synergistic about that lifestyle. I do actually think light
• 1:45:52
  is part of it too, Like they got great light there.
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they have great light, especially like the Malfy Coast
• 1:45:56
  those people. Yeah, but the other thing is also stress.
• 1:46:01
  They're they're not as career focused. They're more family oriented,
• 1:46:06
  very tight knit family groups. They eat dinner together. There's
• 1:46:08
  a lot of laughing, a lot of drinking wine. There
• 1:46:11
  are a lot of them smoke cigarettes. You over there, Like
• 1:46:13
  cigarettes never went out of style. Over there, they're all
• 1:46:16
  smoking cigarettes And you're like, how are you guys so
• 1:46:19
  fucking healthy?
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 2: This is weird, Yeah it is.
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 4: It's Yeah, it'll be interesting on cigarettes if it turns
• 1:46:25
  out that in a certain context they're not that damaging,
• 1:46:29
  and then out of that context they're super damaging.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: I have heard that with polyphenols. I've heard that, and
• 1:46:37
  this is a I think controversial as well. But it's
• 1:46:40
  cigarettes taken along with olive oil, and that a lot
• 1:46:45
  of these people have high olive oil rich diets and
• 1:46:48
  that cigarettes along with olive oil, that the olive oil
• 1:46:51
  tends to balance out whatever damage that the cigarettes are doing.
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: That's super interesting.
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which kind of makes sense.
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 4: And it's it's gonna be like everything is going to
• 1:47:01
  be something like that. Yeah, it's bad in a certain context,
• 1:47:05
  and then it seems to have been okay for people
• 1:47:07
  in a different context.
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Are there any other things that you've noticed, Like,
• 1:47:12
  I know you've done work on chocolate, right, A.
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 4: Lot of a lot of work on Yeah, I've brought
• 1:47:17
  I like my first sort of big magazine story. Outside
• 1:47:21
  Magazine sent me to the Amazon on this like crazy
• 1:47:25
  hunt to like with this German guy. It was basically
• 1:47:28
  apocalypse now with chocolate. With this German guy was going
• 1:47:32
  up river into the Amazon to try to find this
• 1:47:35
  wild cocal like to work with some of the indigenous
• 1:47:37
  groups to harvest wild cacal and make like the world's
• 1:47:40
  first wild chocolate. So I went with him, crazy crazy trip,
• 1:47:46
  but but yeah, I sort of fell in love with
• 1:47:48
  cacaw on that trip. But it was like we landed.
• 1:47:53
  We took a small plane and we're going to land
• 1:47:56
  on this river and meet a canoe that was going
• 1:47:57
  to take us upriver to meet with these indigenous groups.
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 2: So we found a runway.
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 4: Right, this is in the Bolivian Amazon, but this I've
• 1:48:05
  been to the Amazon all like four minutes. Right, the
• 1:48:08
  plane drops us off on this flooded runway where like
• 1:48:11
  it was a crazy landing. We hop out of the plane.
• 1:48:14
  I'm glad to be alive. And then these four guys
• 1:48:19
  with guns come out of the silver cabin and we're like,
• 1:48:23
  we're guard this is actually a landing strip that our
• 1:48:26
  you know, Colombian boss owns and we're guarding it for him.
• 1:48:30
  And what do you two white do you's do in here? So,
• 1:48:33
  like all the cocaine traffic comes through this part of
• 1:48:35
  the Amazon, and we had just done what people actually
• 1:48:39
  haven't been killed for, which is you know, like if
• 1:48:42
  a couple of white guys drop in there, they assume
• 1:48:44
  you're like dea or something, right, So they're super suspicious
• 1:48:48
  and I did you know? They were speaking Spanish, so
• 1:48:50
  I was like catching every fourth word or something. I'm like,
• 1:48:52
  this can't be good because of the guns. But but anyway,
• 1:48:55
  the guy I was with, the German guy, he negotiated
• 1:48:58
  with them and finally like, okay, just give us a
• 1:49:01
  landing fee.
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 2: So they we're like sure.
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 4: But yeah, so that was but that was the beginning
• 1:49:06
  of my chocolate journey.
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: What so what part of the Amazon were you? Were?
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 4: You you Bolivia, which you know Bolivia you think of
• 1:49:14
  like mountains LAPAs, but they have these lowlands which are
• 1:49:17
  like straight up like like tropical rainforest. It's called the
• 1:49:21
  Benny and it's like truly lawless area, like huge swaths
• 1:49:26
  of jungle, a bunch of cattle ranching as well, and
• 1:49:30
  all the drug traffic comes through there from the Andes.
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 1: So and you went in there as just as a journalist.
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so this guy, this German guy, he'd been living
• 1:49:39
  there for twenty years and he was trying to get
• 1:49:42
  this cacal and You're like, yeah, I'm gonna go meet.
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 2: With these groups. Do you want to come?
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 4: And outside had just come to me and they'd liked
• 1:49:50
  something else I'd written, and they're like, hey, we're Outside magazine.
• 1:49:53
  What's the like freakiest thing you ever wanted to do?
• 1:49:56
  We'll you know, we'll send you there. And I had
• 1:49:59
  like a little kid at the so I was like,
• 1:50:01
  you know, I'm not going to be going off a
• 1:50:02
  two hundred foot waterfall and kayak for you guys. But
• 1:50:05
  then this this like, you know, heart of dark Chocolate
• 1:50:09
  thing came up. I was like, I could be that,
• 1:50:11
  I could be like the comic guy for them. So
• 1:50:13
  it's this like ridiculous journey where like everything went wrong,
• 1:50:17
  but we did get some really good, good chocolate at
• 1:50:19
  the end of it.
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: So what is the benefit of wild cacao.
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 4: It tastes really really good, like better than the industrial
• 1:50:27
  varieties of kick cacao that most chocolate's made with, and
• 1:50:31
  it's just like kind of a cool story, and it
• 1:50:33
  can be used to support those indigenous groups so that
• 1:50:36
  the forest doesn't get cut down and turned into more
• 1:50:38
  like cattle ranch because cacao grows in the understory of
• 1:50:43
  the rainforest, so it's kind of a way to monetize
• 1:50:47
  the full rainforest.
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: And keep the canopy intact exactly what is the benefits
• 1:50:52
  of cacao, Like health wise.
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 2: It's right there with with coffee.
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 4: You know, tons of polyphenals, a little bit of caffeine,
• 1:51:01
  it seems to you know, be anti inflammatory, gives you
• 1:51:05
  a little boost, makes you happy for some of the
• 1:51:07
  same reasons and maybe some different ones as well.
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: And when you say it tastes better like in what way,
• 1:51:12
  like when you.
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 4: Try it a lot more like aromatics and less bitterness.
• 1:51:18
  Like basically what happened with cacao is what it became
• 1:51:22
  a global product. The Europeans selected varieties that were high yielding,
• 1:51:29
  same thing that happened with tomatoes and everything else. They
• 1:51:31
  were high yielding, but they lost some of the great
• 1:51:34
  aromatic qualities that like the old Maya cacao had had,
• 1:51:38
  and that's what gets.
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 2: Grown all over the world.
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 4: Most cacao comes from Africa now and it's more bitter,
• 1:51:44
  less interesting, but way cheaper. So then there's this movement
• 1:51:49
  that started like ten fifteen years ago of people trying
• 1:51:53
  to go back to Latin America to find the like
• 1:51:56
  ancient heirloom varieties that had this great flavor and make
• 1:52:00
  like better chocolate than had ever been made before. So
• 1:52:03
  the most ancient is the stuff in the Amazon, which
• 1:52:06
  is where cacao originated, still growing wild. So it's it's
• 1:52:10
  you know, it's kind of cool if you can go
• 1:52:11
  back to the you know, primordial days and make chocolate.
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, the example of tomatoes is a perfect example
• 1:52:18
  because air loom tomatoes are sensational. They're so delicious, so
• 1:52:22
  much better. There's so much better. And then you have
• 1:52:25
  one of those bullshit McDonald's tomatoes that looks like a
• 1:52:28
  piece of paper. Yeah, cocal that's what it looks like.
• 1:52:31
  That is.
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's these pods and you open up the pod.
• 1:52:35
  It's kind of like the size of like a little
• 1:52:36
  nerve football or something.
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, I had no idea.
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 4: And so chocolate is made from the seeds inside. You
• 1:52:44
  got to ferment them and then roast them and then
• 1:52:46
  you grind them in a.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: Chocolate Where can one get heirloom chocolate made from this
• 1:52:53
  ancient cacaw So the company.
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so the place I send people is Copudas, which
• 1:53:00
  is online site. They're like the main importer of specialty chocolate.
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 2: That's there.
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: They are other people.
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so they Copudos has most of the like the
• 1:53:09
  Great Wild cocals available on their website.
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: They just it's just like retail Capudos. So is it
• 1:53:15
  Capudos dot com? Yeah, yeah, it's from Salt Lake City.
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they've got a cool shop in.
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: Salt Lake, Ah. Interesting preserve Bolivian rainforests. Yeah, ritual chocolate. Yeah,
• 1:53:29
  I've heard of people are ritual cocow ceremonies. I'm like,
• 1:53:33
  what are you.
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 2: Doing so that?
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: What we're doing that?
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 2: It's it's a that's a green thing.
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 4: Everyone thinks it goes back to something like like we're
• 1:53:44
  referencing some ancient Maya ceremony.
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 1: Of course it is.
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 2: It's it was a white dude in Guatemala.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the people it's kind of like ayahuasca with trading wheels.
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 1: They do cow. But like, what what's what can come
• 1:54:00
  out of a ritual where you take cacaw?
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, same thing that can come out
• 1:54:05
  of ritual where you do anything else, Like you're you're focusing,
• 1:54:08
  you know, in some mindfulness you get a little you know,
• 1:54:11
  you get a little boost from the cacao, but not much. Yeah,
• 1:54:14
  it's it's more about the ritual.
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: Or why is what is a cocw ceremony? Why there's
• 1:54:21
  suddenly showing up all over la. Uh yeah, you can
• 1:54:24
  answer that one on your own.
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 4: So, I mean, Jamie, if you can call it Keith's cacaw.
• 1:54:28
  There's this guy named Keith. I think he died recently.
• 1:54:30
  He's like the classic gringo guru with a big white
• 1:54:33
  beard who would like have people in Guatemala.
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 2: And he's just invented this cocaw ceremony.
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 5: Thing, but he's uh damnit white people.
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: And then everyone else sort of took it from him.
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 1: There he is, well, he looks like the tab a guy.
• 1:54:47
  I look at a big old fucking dirty pot of
• 1:54:49
  cacao kind of costume. So he started, Okay, poor Keith,
• 1:55:00
  these silly people. So but but there's like antioxidants in it,
• 1:55:06
  like there's other a ton.
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah it's good for you. It's totally good for you.
• 1:55:10
  And yeah it you know, gets your heart beating a
• 1:55:13
  little faster. There's some happy drugs in there. It's got
• 1:55:17
  a tiny bit of cannabinoids in it. But and it
• 1:55:21
  tastes great, so you know what's not to.
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: Like anything else? And the other foods or substances or
• 1:55:29
  different things that you found out that were beneficial, well, how.
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: Do you feel about oysters? I wrote a book about oysters too.
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: I eat them all the time.
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 2: Are you your fan?
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 1: I like them? Are they okay?
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 4: I mean they're great, But there's no but they're great.
• 1:55:42
  But I think they're I think I think we haven't
• 1:55:44
  figured out why. You know, they're like, you know, you're
• 1:55:46
  eating like a little living being. So I think you know,
• 1:55:49
  there's like some chi factor there where the reason people
• 1:55:52
  get so excited and feel so good in the eat oysters.
• 1:55:55
  It's not because of like the nutrients. It's like there's
• 1:55:58
  something else that's in there.
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: You know, Well, isn't there zinc in oysters?
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: Definitely?
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 1: And they're supposed to have an aphrodisiac effect.
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, So I think that afrodisiac thing is like
• 1:56:09
  it's more about the g like this living forest that
• 1:56:11
  you're ingesting than.
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 2: It does down a little of that.
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like she's gonna get she's going to get justified scientifically, it's.
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, so you think you're getting what's interesting.
• 1:56:26
  There's another friend of mine made an argument for vegans
• 1:56:29
  to eat shellfish, and he said, like, if you're eating
• 1:56:33
  clams and oysters, they're so primitive, they're more primitive than plants.
• 1:56:37
  He said, there's more evidence that plants are conscious than
• 1:56:40
  there is that these shellfish are conscious.
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think, yeah, plants are pretty damn smart.
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: So yeah, weirdly so. Yeah, And muscles and clams and
• 1:56:51
  oysters they're not they're they're they're sort of alive, but
• 1:56:56
  they don't feel pain, and they just move. And because
• 1:56:59
  they move, they open and clothes. We've decided that they're animals.
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 4: And with oysters that's literally the only thing they can do. Yeah,
• 1:57:06
  the clams at least, can you know, get the tongue.
• 1:57:08
  And oysters they're stuck. They are just opening clothes. There's
• 1:57:12
  not a whole lot going on there for.
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: Sure, right, but healthy for you, yeah, unless you get
• 1:57:19
  a bad batch and then you die.
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: They are definitely a source of food poisoning.
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard people dying.
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they kill a few people every year.
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting. My wife got food poisoning from
• 1:57:29
  oysters once when we were on vacation. We were in
• 1:57:31
  Hawaii and she ate oysters and somehow another she got
• 1:57:34
  it and I didn't. But then, uh, my daughter, who
• 1:57:38
  didn't eat oysters, also got the food poisoning because food
• 1:57:42
  poisoning apparently can spread through the air. Interesting, and so
• 1:57:46
  it's contagious.
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're I guess, if you're like ralphing hard enough, you're.
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: Clothing through the air, I guess. But it was really weird,
• 1:57:55
  and that's how we found out that food food poisoning
• 1:57:58
  is contagious. And that's one of the reasons why they
• 1:58:00
  isolate people when they're on boats when they have food poisoning,
• 1:58:03
  because those people could actually spread whatever that is through
• 1:58:06
  the air. Fucking weird. Yeah, yeah, but that I do.
• 1:58:12
  I do love oysters, but I do get nervous when
• 1:58:15
  I eat them because every now and then you hear
• 1:58:16
  like Houston man dies or food.
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 2: Poison cold water cold water is says.
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 1: Food poisoning itself is not directly contagious, as it refers
• 1:58:26
  to an illness caused by eating or drinking contaminated food. However,
• 1:58:28
  the specific viruses or bacteria responsible for the conbination are
• 1:58:32
  highly contagious and can easily spread from person to person
• 1:58:35
  through poor hygiene or shared surfaces. Yeah, so it's contagious.
• 1:58:40
  So the viruses that come from food poisoning are contagious.
• 1:58:43
  It's not like through the air. Oh, so surface contact.
• 1:58:47
  Is that what it is? Oh? I see so coughing
• 1:58:50
  and stuff injecting, and so you may be interesting the
• 1:58:54
  airborne confusion. The confute show more can fuse food poisoning
• 1:59:01
  with highly contagious stomach bugs like neurovirus with the viruses
• 1:59:05
  are not airborne. They're highly contagious get spread through the
• 1:59:08
  air in tiny droplets. When someone vomits there it is
• 1:59:12
  leading to contaminated surfaces or breathing in aerosolized particles. So
• 1:59:16
  that's what it is. It's the coughs. Yeah, okay, I
• 1:59:22
  think we covered it.
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 4: I think yeah, I think I think we Uh. I
• 1:59:27
  think you're going to get a lot of interesting.
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: Responses, so guess what. I don't read them. So good
• 1:59:32
  luck to all those haters shouting into the void. I've
• 1:59:37
  long suspected that the sun exposure is probably good for you,
• 1:59:41
  and then it's really just a matter of like how
• 1:59:43
  much and mitigating the damage that you could get if
• 1:59:47
  you get burnt.
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 2: Turns out you're right.
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it just doesn't make sense that your body produces
• 1:59:53
  vitamin D through it. It makes you feel so good
• 1:59:55
  and yet somehow another is bad. I think it's like
• 1:59:57
  many things very nuanced, and so I'm really happy that
• 2:00:01
  you did so much work on it. I'm happy you
• 2:00:03
  rode the storm too. Well.
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 2: The storm's just coming.
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: I'm sure, especially after this show. But thank you very much.
• 2:00:10
  And tell everybody where your book is and how they
• 2:00:12
  can get it.
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 4: Yes, so whatever their favorite online place in Defensive Sunlight, Amazon,
• 2:00:19
  anywhere else.
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 1: And did you do an audio version of it?
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah? They let me read it. Yes, we'll see if
• 2:00:23
  that was good news or nice.
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 1: I love it when someone reads their own book. It's
• 2:00:27
  very important.
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 5: I think me too.
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well, thank you very much