Latest / Modern Sacred: Women's Work / Finding Your Tribe, Embracing Diversity and Creating Your Sacred Self Identity
Transcript
- Chelsea Henderson: Hello, welcome back everyone to another episode of the Modern Sacred Women's Work podcast. Thank you for joining us. All right, so Abby and I were just chatting and I think today we're gonna continue with our she economy discussion and ⁓ hone in a little bit on some things we've been talking about together personally about holding all the emotions around it. and ⁓ also maybe a little bit about the geography of your experience and ⁓ potentially get into some rituals about it. So yeah, on that note, how are you today? Abby: I am doing wonderful. Hi everybody. I just got home from a trip to Portland, Oregon last night. We got in late. I've never been to Portland before. We are actually moving there in six weeks from Salt Lake City to Portland, Oregon. We've been in Salt Lake for a year, which is some of what we're going to be talking about today. It's like how it matters where you live and the culture that you surround yourself with in terms of how you feel about yourself, how you feel about Chelsea Henderson: Bye! Mm-hmm. Abby: your face and your body and your vessel that you're in, depending on how other people in your culture are treating their vessel. ⁓ So we're gonna talk about all that, but yeah, I'm feeling good. Chelsea Henderson: Good, I'm glad. I am so excited about ⁓ your expansion into Portland. I have community there and have been going there for years and I love it there. And it seems like such a haven. You know, I think ⁓ there's energies in different places and that's one thing that I always feel there and you kind of brought this up and I liked it is that there's just a comfort with just being there a lot more than other places. Abby: Yes. Hmm. Chelsea Henderson: And I think that's really fascinating. Like you, you talked about seeing ⁓ just more natural bodies and you know, there's an energy there of kind of like, fuck the system. And I, I wonder if maybe that's a part of that kind of F you that I never really thought about until you said that, that that's just kind of part and parcel to that whole, ⁓ just push back on the system. Abby: Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: And I wonder what that, how you felt about that, like reflecting on that and moving into that. Like, does that feel like part of that kind of, you know, pushback? Abby: Absolutely, it feels so ingrained there and just to give everybody some context, so Salt Lake City, for anyone who doesn't know, is the plastic surgery capital of the United States. More than Miami, more than Los Angeles, more than California, Salt Lake City has the most plastic surgery. We have, it's crazy, I did not know that when I moved here until you get here. We have huge. Chelsea Henderson: Which is crazy. That's crazy. I did not know that either. Abby: billboards along the highway of before and after pictures of people's faces. have, but you know, life's too short, get the lips in the huge billboard letters staring you at the face. And everywhere you go, it's frozen foreheads and big lips and long hair and extensions. ⁓ I've never felt so insecure in my life about my wrinkles. And I would like to say that I'm above that and that it didn't affect me. Chelsea Henderson: Whoa. Abby: But on this five day trip to Portland, I felt so much more comfortable and more beautiful. And I loved looking out at everybody's faces in the coffee shops and just seeing different faces. It kinda shook me how here in Salt Lake, you look around and you see the same face. Obviously people's faces still look different, but you see the big lips, the flat forehead, the spray tan, the blonde hair. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Mmm. Abby: perfectly curled, and how I just loved seeing big bodies, small bodies, tall bodies, short bodies, mullets, purple hair, blue hair, and just everything in between, big noses, small noses, thin lips, big lips, like, I love the variety of humanity, and when I was there, I just felt more like I can, I can let my stomach out in this coffee shop, like I can fucking relax. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. God bless the mullet. Mm-hmm. Mmm. No. I CAN BREATHE Abby: I can like, I can go brawl-less and go get some food from the place down the road and I don't have to put makeup on and how much, it just felt like in Portland it's very much like, I don't know if it's directly connected to like, fuck the system, but I bet it is. know, not having been there for very long, but. Chelsea Henderson: Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe partly. Abby: I feel like it's just so ingrained, their culture there is so about acceptance and comfortability. Chelsea Henderson: rights. Okay, that's interesting to me. Well, that for sure, right? And I love that. ⁓ So that's interesting to me though, because one thing that I'm thinking about when you're saying all this is that like, and I brought this up in the intro, there's the emotional space. one of the things I, I'm not gonna say I struggle with it. I'm gonna say I think about it a lot in myself. My reaction, right? Like this came up for me in a conversation recently where I, made a comment about Elon Musk having a small penis and my friend was like, you're reducing him to a small and I was like, yeah, I am actually you're totally right. Because in every job I've ever had where a man was in a position of power, he grabbed my ass, grabbed my tits. I had my tits slapped once, a kiss forced on me, a penis taken out and put on me. Maybe this is me. Maybe I'm asking for it like they say in the courts, right? Like maybe that's my flirty personality or something. Abby: Wow. Chelsea Henderson: And I don't mean that self-deprecatingly. No, I know, but it's just, you know, I mean, truly, like, I don't know what the karma is there, right? I know that that's not every woman's experience, but it's a lot of women's experience. And so, yes, there is a part of me that is so deeply rageful that I'm like, mm-hmm, this is what I have that works against you. Your penis is small and doesn't function, and that's the thing that hurts you the most. So I am going to do that to you. Abby: Definitely not, definitely not. Yes, off deprecatingly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: I don't love that part of myself. Of course, that feels, it feels honestly like, like allowing a purge that feels like I'm, I'm being self-indulgent, right? It feels good to me and it hurts everyone else around me. So that's not cool, right? Like my friend, I think in that moment was trying to say, Hey, like that's a little intense for me. And like, maybe she could have just said that, but she didn't, right? And so, but it was a good reflection to be like, Hey, interesting. Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: yeah, this is where I feel like I'm left a lot of times because I feel defensive about what I've been pushed into in the life that I've lived in the society that I've lived. And the way that I'm tying that back to what you were saying is that I feel hyper conscious about not doing that to others. Either I'm just being completely self-indulgent and I'm like, you know. Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Two middle fingers up, your penis is small, like, haha, you know, like, which is not kind at all. ⁓ Or I'm trying very hard to be conscious. So that's my work, right? Finding that neutrality more often. I don't need to be at one extreme or the other. But I wonder if we feel accepted in a place like Portland. Do we feel accepted because it's more aligned with us? And what if I was the person who did choose to have the flat forehead and the injected lips? Abby: you Mm. Chelsea Henderson: and the injected cheeks and all of those things. And I wanted to go there. Would I then feel not accepted? Right. And in a place like Salt Lake City, those are human beings too. What's the story there? But like Katie Smith said this to us, and I was so inspired by it of like, that's their journey to choose to do those things with their bodies. And it is the non-judgment that is the work. And so I... Abby: Right. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: I guess I want to talk about that. I want to hear what you have to say about that because that's a real struggle for me to not just be like, this makes me uncomfortable. It makes me feel excluded and it makes me feel not good enough. And so I'm doing two middle fingers up and telling you all you have small penises. Like, how can I, how can we all be working in that space? And what does that mean? I would love to explore that because I think it is part of this conversation of like, Abby: Hmm. Mmm. Chelsea Henderson: All these things are going to exist, so how do we hold them all and be as accepting as possible? I know that was a lot, but what do you think? Abby: Mm. Well, what comes to mind is what one of our friends texted us. She's a listener of the podcast and she was listening to the Sheconomy episode. And we love hearing from people who are listening to the podcast. By the way, if anyone ever wants to shoot us a text and say, I listened and I loved it, it means a lot. So thank you for anyone who supports us in that way. She was talking about the rage that's there and this deep, like feminine rage where she's Chelsea Henderson: Yes, we do. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Abby: I believe she's in her 50s, somewhere in there, but being around women her age talking about aging gracefully, talking about menopause and that transition, and yet they're all injected with things and their foreheads don't move. And how there's that rage of like, don't tell me how to take care of my body in menopause if you're like not walking the walk. And yes, everybody's path is different. Chelsea Henderson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Yes. Abby: But there, I just wanted to speak to the rage because I've also been getting a lot of stuff on my Instagram feed or whatever of people. People just underestimate the amount of rage that women have held for millennia. and while it's saying this, the background is like women in the Renaissance period, women all throughout history who are doing the laundry, turning the butter. Chelsea Henderson: you Abby: cleaning out the stove and the fireplace, not getting paid for any of their labor. And there's a lot of rage. I feel a lot of rage in me. And I do feel it towards men. I feel it towards men in charge, men in suits. And when we were getting on the plane to come back here, this might be unrelated. I'm a little bit like coming off of all my travels, so hopefully this all makes sense. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Yes. Mmm. Yeah. Mmm. Abby: But walking through, how you have to walk past first class to get on the plane. And I always think the first class people are gonna look like different humans and they don't. They're young, they're old, they're skinny, they're fat, they're on their phones, just like us. They're the same and I imagine that they're gonna look like movie stars, first class. And they don't, they're just humans. Chelsea Henderson: ⁓ yeah, no, my favorite part, yeah. No. Mm-mm. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, they just spend their money differently. Maybe have a little more. Yeah. No. Abby: They just spend their money differently. And another thing I'd say on that is when we were getting on the plane, we were talking about the boat talks, me and my husband, Zach, and you could see several people were heading back to Salt Lake City and had definitely had work done. You could just see it. It was very obvious. And it was so different from what we'd seen all throughout Portland. And Zach said, you know, people in Portland spend money on their appearance too. They just spend it in a different way. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah, interesting. ⁓ Abby: and they spend it on trendy haircuts and color and tattoos and piercings in that $500 vintage denim jacket. they spend a good bit of money maybe on their appearance, but they are trying to portray a different, maybe more of like their actual authentic self as opposed to what other people want to see. I'm not, yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Totally. Mmm. I love that. I love your husband and I love his insights. They're helpful, really helpful. That's a great point. I think about that here in Denver. You'll go to a Michelin star restaurant and there are people coming in in their leggings and their Patagonia like sweatshirts and their outfits cost hundreds of dollars. Right. So they, you know, they are, they're speaking to, I can afford to be here. Right. Which I think that's a big part of the Abby: Yeah, me too. Yep. Chelsea Henderson: You know, that's the first class thing, right? Like anytime I've ever written in first class has been because I was working for a place that flew me first class and I would be like, oh, don't look at me. Like, cause I kind of just think it's a farce. Like you're getting a microwave meal and some shitty champagne. The thing we really care about is the space, right? Two people to a an aisle versus three is pretty nice. You know, that's a nice to not have someone's elbow in my face, but Abby: ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Chelsea Henderson: Outside of that, it's a status thing. I remember one time sitting next to this woman who just went on and on about how her husband, they didn't have enough first class seats and he had to sit back there with everybody else and she wanted to bring him a meal and it was like, bitch, I don't care about you. I don't care about your husband. I don't care about this shitty microwave meal. Do you want to give him mine? Like, what are we talking about? And also, why are you talking to me? Because like, we're not friends and like you're troubles with this whole experience. Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: feel like you're just really, really trying to illustrate that this is the class that you belong in. And for me, I feel like in my attempt to love myself and humanity, and I stress attempt because it is a daily practice, it does not come easily to me. I mean, you talk about rage. I feel like I am rage. Like that's that's my default. That's where I want to be. And I'll say completely self-indulgent. It just feels really good because the disempowerment I've experienced and I think the disempowerment Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: down my line is coming out and being like, ⁓ I have the chance to roar like a lioness and attack like a mama bear. Yeah, I want to do that. That feels awesome. And I have to check myself because it's not kind to scare other people and to make them feel less than I'm just, you know, I don't believe in it, but I find myself doing it because it's a very addictive feeling. Right. And so in that attempt to love myself and humanity in that way. Abby: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: I think those are some of the things that humans do in a material ⁓ and capitalist world that feeds that they're feeding their own self love, right? That's a way to be like, I have value, I'm worthy, I'm lovable because I have a status, I have a thing, I have this. that's the system, right? That's not even necessarily their fault. ⁓ But I... Abby: Yeah. And I think that people are trying to fit in. That's what I got from Zach's comment of like people in Portland spend money on their appearance just as much, maybe not just as much because plastic surgery is expensive, but they spend money on their appearance and it's a very trendy town. It's, know, ⁓ and I think we're all really trying to fit in. And if you move to Salt Lake City, the amount of pressure I felt to get Botox has been more than anywhere else I've lived. Chelsea Henderson: Yes, yes. Yes. Right. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Abby: because it's so the norm and it's hard to be the only one with a mobile forehead in Trader Joe's. And so you're just like, feel other than, I feel outside the group. And that just in our psychology as humans, that is gonna trigger like, how do I feel part of the group? How do I feel safe? And then in Portland, like, know, am I gonna feel like, man, I should get the trendy haircut or should I do something different? Do I just wanna be the... Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Yes. Right. Abby: girl with the mousy brown hair, you know, at least I have the septum piercing. I'm like, I got that going for me. I have no plans on getting a mullet right now. I don't think it would look very good on me. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Are you gonna get a mullet? Let's talk about this. Your hair is really gorgeous and it's not mousy. It's beautiful. I Love that you talk about that though that softened me in that moment. I can feel that in my body and these last couple of weeks I felt Like just the exhaustion of it all just kicks in and hits me from time to time and by that I mean every couple of weeks and it's just that exhaustion of like I Just don't you know, this is hard This is hard being a human. It's hard being a woman. It's hard being a wife. It's hard being a friend. It's hard being a mother. Like it's hard to care. Like I understand now. Like we talk about the matrix, but I get it. Like whatever pill they took, like I get not wanting to take that pill or to sell out your friends to go back in. Right. I've probably said that on here before, but like I do get it at this point in my life because I get Abby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: really exhausted and I feel overwhelmed. And I think my emotional defense mechanism to that, to being a human who wants to fit in, that doesn't want to be othered, has felt othered in those ways over time. mean, there's nothing like having a man assume he can just kiss you when he wants to, even though you don't even really know each other that well, that makes you feel like an outside, like it makes you feel like a piece of meat, a property, right? Like not a Abby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: not a person with integrity. And there's something about that that makes me want to other in response. I want to diminish and burn their houses down because I am very, very human. And that's my defense mechanism. And my practice is still so humble. And I think at it, you know, in early phases, even though I'm older in years. So Abby: Dude, it's so real. Mmm. Hmm. Chelsea Henderson: ⁓ And again, that might be self-deprecation. I don't know. That's also a big part of it. I'm either raging out or belittling myself. So I think this is one of those areas where I can really look inward to say, what do you need here and address that? But what you're saying is really beautiful and creates some tenderness in me of like, yeah, they just want to fit in. And Zach is totally right. Abby: Yeah. Yeah, because it's that right versus left, it's that us versus them that is so divisive and I can so fall into it as well. Zach can very much fall into it, which he's very aware of, in terms of those people over there, the people with all the money, the people who have all the cattle and all those things. And then you'll meet an actual rancher from Montana. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Abby: and he's actually such a nice guy. And then you're like, dang it, no, I want you to suck. I want you to be rich. I want you to be evil. And it turns out you have very, you don't have much money and you're such a nice guy. It's like you meet these people at weddings, know, where people, where suddenly you're mixed all up with someone else's people and you meet people you would have never met and you're actually sat at a table with them and you're talking to them and you're like, okay, there's less of this. Chelsea Henderson: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Abby: us versus them, but it's so easy as like a psychological trick to feel empowered or safe to do that. ⁓ Even another thought from Portland is I was in Mount Taper Park, which is a beautiful fucking park. I was just obsessed with it. And I was by myself, cause Zach was doing his own run and I was walking and there was this man in a black hoodie, black pants, hood up. It was drizzling a little bit and he was just kind of walking. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Love that park. Love it. Abby: by the playground and I was right where I needed to walk, where the path was, and I was like, I'm scared of this guy. And like, you know, is he gonna try and like say something to me? Is he gonna be like, what's up sexy? Is he gonna, you know, have try to engage with me? And he puts his foot on the stool and starts doing Bulgarian split squats. And so was like, okay, this guy is probably not trying to, like you're doing Bulgarian split squats, good for you. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. He's protecting himself from the rain while he works out. He's not a Abby: I'm like, you're putting your head up because it's raining. And then I was like, okay, so he's just kind of maybe doing a workout. And I found myself thinking, Abby, he's more afraid of you than you are of him. You are a woman in Portland and he is a man. And in that city, I mean, I don't know, I'm just making generalizations, but in that city, it was very about inclusivity and respect and Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Abby: and being a cisgender white man alone and seeing a woman walking towards you, you're like, don't fuck this up, don't be weird, don't engage her, what should I do? I'll just start doing Bulgarian split squats. Chelsea Henderson: Right. Keep it together. Too good, too squats. Squats are innocuous. Abby: I'm like it's like a wild animal. I'm so afraid of him But I'm like just like a black bear or a cougar or whatever I'm like he's more afraid of me than I am of him I he's not my enemy here now if he were to approach me and be like what's up? Then I'd be like nope. No you are that guy, but innocent until proven guilty like he's just in the park. I'm just in the park Chelsea Henderson: Hmm. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Abby: And it was just funny and I walked by him and he didn't even look at me. I'm like, he's probably thinking, like, don't fuck this up. Just be cool. Don't be weird. Don't make her feel uncomfortable. Don't be that guy. And I hear about this in the gym as well with girls and guys where a lot of females that I've talked to, they will, you know, they want to meet a guy and maybe they have a gym crush. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Hilarious. Yeah. Don't be that guy. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Abby: And they have a guy at the gym who they think is so hot and so sexy but he never comes up to me. I'm always looking at him and he never comes up to me. I'm like, he's not going to come up to you because if he's any guy worth having, he's not gonna be the guy at the gym that goes up to a woman and says, hey, what's up? So you need to potentially go talk to your gym crush. Anyone out there who's listening who has a gym crush? Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. No. Yeah. He knows better. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Abby: If they're a good guy, they're not gonna approach you in the gym. So you need to go talk to them. So there's just like all this us versus them happening that I think we're all more similar than we think we are. ⁓ But why we do that, yeah, that was a long tangent. Chelsea Henderson: Absolutely. Yeah. I know, I know. You're absolutely right. Which is easy for me to see with the people in my life that I've, you know, who are gay, who are transgender, who are people of color. Like, I'm like, I see your oppression. I have seen it in real time. I've seen it historically. I've been told I've learned all of these things. And then with people who look more like me, you know, I have a friend here in Denver who's in her seventies. Shout out Mary. ⁓ And she and I will go to dinner sometimes and I'll find we're like talking shit about like the Central Park moms, you know, because they're like the busy women who like do pilates and they have three point five children and the white picket fence. And like it's a gross generalization. And I demean the crap out of them. I'm like, dismiss, dismiss, not my people gross. And then I meet. Abby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: many people from Central Park. And I'm like, you're cool. You're great. Like what this that it's this like evolutionary. It's ancient. Right. I mean, I think when we talk to Carissa and I'm not sure if that episode will have come out yet, but we talked to a really, really cool woman from San Francisco. And, you know, she talked about this with othering and that it's like this evolutionary kind of inclination that's old, very old in us and used to serve and no longer serves. And, you know, Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: It's amazing to me that I have been working on my own consciousness and self-awareness for a really long time now. And that still comes up for me. And it doesn't come up with the black woman or the gay person or the people that I think are more traditionally othered. It doesn't come up for me with Muslim people. I'm like, cool, you're religious. I'm not. Like, awesome, good for you. Like, hope you do it well, because a lot of people don't. Abby: Hmm. Chelsea Henderson: We'll see, right? Like, that's my level of othering with them. I other the crap out of women that are kind of just like me. And then you're talking about, ⁓ it's so shadow. It's so shadow. I mean, so much of this is self-worth. Yeah, I don't do that with you, though. I mean, I have never felt that with you. We're friends, you know? Abby: Yeah, exactly. It might be shadow. Because I'm the white girl. Yeah, I don't do it with you either. Yeah. No, but it's so true. I'm like, ⁓ you and your Lululemon. Who went shopping at Lululemon last week? Me, because homie needs some leggings and like the durability and like we were decked out in Patagonia. Zach had his Patagonia hat, Patagonia sweater, Patagonia backpack, Patagonia duffel bag. I'm like, wow. And he was just like, I support the brand. I'm like, all right. Chelsea Henderson: Girl? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and they're a good brand, right? But there's also something virtuous in that that we're trying to be like, they're a good brand and we believe in social consciousness and environmental consciousness. It's also an expensive brand. It's not accessible to everyone. And so, you know, there's always these moments of just that self-reflection of like, gosh, when it comes down to it at the end of the day, I say this all the time is one of my favorite stupid sayings, but the call is coming from inside the house. And like this is... Abby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm Chelsea Henderson: me knocking at my own door, being like, are you raging out at this generalized Central Park mom in your head who, you know, throws away everything, never composts or recycles, you know, votes Republican because her husband tells her to like drives a Tesla like that's not fair. Like, and that's not even real. That woman probably doesn't even exist. And if she does, there's like one of her and I don't have to be friends with her. Like, it's OK for her to exist like. Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: And I think there's something nuanced there about how all things balance if we let them, but that I'm causing imbalance by projecting outward. If I can stay inward and be like, OK, honey, what's going on here? Why do you feel like you got to go get the bat and beat somebody like this is not that's not your reality. Like you don't live in a in a world where you have to be so violent and defensive. Abby: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: You have the privilege of safety and love. ⁓ my god, it's exhausting. Yes. Probably why I'm so tired. Abby: Yeah, and it's exhausting internally, like, yes, right? Okay, so you and Zach are similar in this, and you've met Zach briefly. I'm excited for the day that you guys get to know each other even more. But we had a long talk over some Chipotle last night around this topic of like, yeah, beans and rice, baby. It's cheap. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Yes. I love it. I love my vegan friends who eat Chipotle all the time. It's a strong vegan choice. Yeah. Abby: But we were talking about just, we're really excited to move to Portland because Zach gets so in this us versus them space and moral judgment, moral judgment towards other people. that inner critic has gotten so loud being here in Salt Lake because it is like so easy to be like, look at all these fuckers with their golf course in the desert. Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Mmm. No, come. ⁓ Come on. Abby: watering your grass and they don't have, they don't recycle glass here. So you just throw it away. If you wanna recycle your glass, you have to take it to a place and dump it in a thing. There's so many things, there's no sidewalks. It's so easy to critique this city. Yeah, and the people who inhabit Salt Lake City with the LDS Church and everything and the religious order and control and. Chelsea Henderson: Why would you landfill? It's designed to be what it is, right? Abby: chapels everywhere, it has really made his inner critic very loud and very angry. And we were talking last night over Chipotle, I'm like, I'm excited for you to be in the most bikeable city, the most, you know, vegan city, the most progressive city, because I hope that that inner critic will quiet down a little bit because there won't be as much to critique. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Abby: because it wears me out. It wears him out and it wears me out. And I'm like, you know, I love you and also that energy can just be heavy for me. And so then I don't want to be around you. And he's like, I know, I don't want to be around me either. It's exhausting. I'm like, yeah. So why are we living here? Why are we two vegans, know, liberal, no Botox people? Chelsea Henderson: I know. I know. I know. Yeah. Abby: living in this city. And that goes back to what we talked about in the beginning with introducing the topic of where you are matters. And yeah, there's this whole like us versus them psychology. It's hard to know where to put that in the modern world because it's a lot easier. Like Zach and I are moving to our echo chamber. We are moving to a place that aligns with almost all of our values. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Abby: and it's gonna be just easier for us. But then we have these cities where we have like really conservative cities and really progressive cities and there continues to be less in the middle. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Diversity. I know. And is that a good thing? I mean, just because we can make it easier for ourselves, should we? You know, and I think about that with the anger. It's like right now in the world, that's where my anger is. I'm not okay with these wars. I'm not okay with this hateful rhetoric, which is hilarious that it incites hate in me because, of course, life is never simple. Abby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. But that's what it does. That's what it does. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah, and I do see that our species has this incredible potential to use our innovation and our self-awareness and our everything to create something amazing. And instead, right now, it feels like we're really just plummeting toward extinction out of our own weakness and self-indulgence. And I'm just as much a part of that. I mean, yes, I Abby: Hmm. Chelsea Henderson: do a lot of things to contribute in a positive sense in terms of my awareness and how I live my life and all of those things. But if I'm contributing anger, then I don't even know if those things matter, right? Like if I'm just sitting here angry and enraged, what am I really doing? ⁓ Abby: Hmm. Hmm. And so then is it helpful to go to those cities? Which is kind of where we, know, part of where we ended up the conversation with that was, I mean, you have cities in Europe, in the Netherlands, know, Denmark, Sweden, that have some of the highest levels of happiness, some of the lowest levels of depression and suicide. They're very green, they're very progressive, they have free healthcare. Chelsea Henderson: I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Abby: they are an echo chamber of that. But when you bring, when you come together over a certain cause, that's all so powerful. So it's like, are we moving to Portland because we just can't be out here in Salt Lake City or in these more progressive, conservative places? And I want to contribute my energy and my life and my days to creating a city that feels safer, that feels more inclusive. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. Yeah. Abby: I think it can be a beautiful thing, it's just hard to know. I think the US is, I don't know, it just kind of feels like it should be 50 different countries. It's too big to be one culture. So to be, what does it mean to be an American? It's, you know, yeah. Chelsea Henderson: ⁓ yeah, for sure. It's big. It's big. Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah, I completely agree. mean, I think even just politically, like a two party system in such a geographically, you know, population dense country is insane. You know, I mean, it's insane across the board. I mean, there are not two ways to do anything ever, you know, when you're dealing with more than two people. But, yeah, it's pretty it's pretty big. And I think right now we are seeing this division between, you know, two kind of Abby: It's, yeah. Chelsea Henderson: because we've been shuffled into these two parties, right? It's like you're Republican or you're Democrat. And at this point, I'm not even sure how much of a difference I'm seeing. I get these texts all the time from Democrats and I'm just like, what? You sound the same as them. This is like a game, you know? It's kind of gross and I'm not into it. And like, I don't think any of you guys have a ton of integrity because the system that you're playing in demands that you pretty much relinquish that immediately to succeed. So, you know, there's, Abby: Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: there's flaws here, but I think in terms of the scale, yeah, every state you go to has a different culture. I've had the privilege of going to a majority of the states in this country, and I find that amazing. It's like, ⁓ yeah, this is like totally different culture. People sound different. People talk different. People act different. The food is different. Even the pastimes are different. But I think something that came up when you were talking just now. Abby: Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: that I think is interesting. And of course, in my current place of just like simmering rage, I maybe want to explore this more. But I think there's also something about a codependent culture like the United States and this like extreme inability to self soothe and love ourselves that we're seeing across the board in this country and maybe others. I don't know. I've only ever lived here. ⁓ And that Abby: Hmm. Chelsea Henderson: makes me curious about playing with some of these emotions. I know some of the wise women in my life and in the community that you and I share do talk about this. And I think it's pretty powerful that like there's something told to us as women and told to us as Americans to just shut our pretty mouths. And it's not polite to be mean. It's not polite to express that. I mean, that's the reaction I get. Abby: Yeah. Right. Chelsea Henderson: from people when I express my rage is they're like, ooh, that makes me uncomfortable. That's messy. And I'm like, okay, makes me want to pummel you to the ground. It incites the opposite. Well, I mean, thanks, I guess. Abby: See, I'm more comfortable with your rage than Zach's rage because you're a woman. I feel like it's more not to say, Zach, that you're not justified to be angry because you are. But I am like, yeah, sometimes I'm like, get angry. I feel very cathartic when you're enraged, which is maybe not good for you, but ⁓ it feels very like, Chelsea Henderson: No you are. I love you so much. Thank you. Abby: Yes, be enraged. It helps give me some permission to be angry and it's also kind of adorable in your Chelsea way for you to get pissed off at traffic. I'm like, Chelsea's a fucking badass. She's like, get the fuck out of my way. I'm like, yes, Chelsea. I know, I know. Chelsea Henderson: ⁓ thank you. Thank you. That's nice. Please. Yeah. Until I kill someone or get killed, right? I mean, I think there's a and also I'm not and I love you so much. Thank you for saying that. It does make me feel more safe and accepted. I have dealt with this a lot in my life. That was a very significant defense mechanism for me. You know, being a young woman who was told to care for others and never taught to care for myself and then having a sick mother and all of this trauma. Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: you know, I became a rage monster as a defense because it allowed me to not just get trampled over, you know, these men that felt comfortable taking advantage of me physically, or the friends that felt comfortable just plowing over me and not listening to my side of things or whatever, all the things that happened to us as humans. This was my way. And it's only in recent years that I've been like, Abby: Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: really challenging myself to develop something deeper because I am something deeper. have truly my most natural state that I've ever experienced so far in my 42 years is a nurturing state, a mothering state. But I have had to and even that's the mother bear thing, right? Sometimes that means you have to get mad and you have to defend yourself and others. And I do hold that space. My Abby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: Concern is the self-indulgence of it, right? The addiction of it. know, young me that like to do hard drugs, that's the same feeling that I get when I dip my toes in that water of rage. When I get that like, ⁓ I can get big, I can get scary, I can go back and find those men that hurt me and I can annihilate them and I can make fun of their penises and all the things. It's right. And it's the stark contrast to the tender, nurturing. Abby: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: mother and there's something in me. Maybe it's this culture, maybe it's being a woman, maybe it's just my particular path in life. There's something in me that there's an inner voice that feels like it was influenced externally that says you can't be both. You can't have both. And I think there's something that we're missing about being human right now. You you and I talked about this. You said something before we started recording the felt hat spiritual. That's just something. Abby: The felt hat spirituality. Yeah, that's me being a little bit of a bitch about just I, you know, the spiritual gurus who wear those felt hats that they buy and the hair is like long and curled. And I'm like, I just feel like I know many people who put on the felt hat and now they're the guru. And I'm like, I can't stand it. Anytime I see a felt hat on someone who's leading a workshop. Chelsea Henderson: I'm obsessed with that. Ugh, bring it. Yes. Yeah. Yep. Yes. Abby: at a yoga studio or whatever and their pictures then with like the felt hat, I'm like, no, I'm not going to that. I'm not going to that. I just already know that if you have to put that hat on in order to feel, that's me being judgmental, but I'm like, no. Yeah, yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Right. It happens. But I think that that energy for me, my experience of that is very much the kind of either or. Like the only way to be spiritual, the only way to heal is to just be calm. We have to stay here. We have to meditate. And that's all we do. And it's like. OK, fine. But that also feels limiting, right? Meditate, absolutely. Abby: Mm. sure. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: kumbaya yourself all the way to, you know, wherever and back, ⁓ amazing. I am so into all of those modalities, but I think that everything in moderation and everything in balance, right? And so when we, you know, I think there's something that we're almost othering ourselves if I am like, I can't be angry because it's unattractive and people don't like it. Abby: Yes. I agree. Chelsea Henderson: And then there's the rage monster in me that's like, I don't fucking care if I make people uncomfortable. Like, bring it. You're uncomfortable. I'm going harder. And it's like, maybe that's me struggling to hold both because I was told or I feel like I'm telling myself I can't hold both. I can't have both. And I wonder if that's cultural. wonder, you know, it's like, it's like we have to choose Salt Lake City or Portland, right? Like, maybe we don't have to choose. Abby: I don't fucking care. Yeah. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: Maybe that's part of this kind of increasingly lessening diversity that we're seeing of like, you know, you're going full hog in this way or that way. You know, you're Miami or New York, you're LA or Denver. And it's like, well, what does that even mean? Right. Are we just the echo chamber is nice because it is easy. It does allow us to put less energy into that. Right. Like living in a city like Denver, I feel like it actually suits me really well. There's some grittiness. There's some, you know, Abby: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: the urban sprawl of it all. And there's this kind of West, this, you know, we're kind of getting into the West a little bit here. And and then there's also the those that are interested in nature and healing and all of that. And it's like it suits me. But then I go back to Florida and I can't hold it. I'm like, ⁓ my God, this is my home state. And I think it's one of the most beautiful places ever. And I want to burn it to the ground. I can't stand anybody here. And it's like, whoa. Abby: Yeah. Mm-mm. Right. Right. Well, what you're saying is making me think about that we're very young country and we have no culture. mean, we were melting pot, whatever, but then assimilation happened where it was like, no, we're not gonna teach our kids how to you know, native tongue because we want them to only speak English and we are a country with no real culture. We have some culture, you know, but I think we're figuring it out. Chelsea Henderson: ⁓ yeah, great point. Yes. Right, yes, right. Yeah. Abby: I think that we are in that stage where it's like, we're, know, Portland is like, this is the culture and Florida, this is the culture. And when you grow up in one place and then you grow and change and you're like, it doesn't really fit me anymore. And so you're going to find the place that feels like it resonates. And I think fast forward, what, another thousand years and it'll be like, just maybe people won't. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah, we're toddlers. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Abby: want to leave as much from where they're raised. I don't really know what I'm trying to say, but I know that if you put someone from Spain into Germany, they're going to think, God, they are a little uptight. They're uptight, they're clean, they're on time, they're blunt. They're proper and put together, but where's the salsa dancing? And vice versa. And they do travel. Europeans travel a lot within Europe, and they experience different cultures. Chelsea Henderson: No, I hear you. No Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, yes. Yeah. Abby: There's very clear borders of culture in Europe and we are starting to create that here and I don't know, I feel like it's all probably very natural when it comes to humans and our psychology and we're figuring it out. Chelsea Henderson: Yes! Yeah! Yeah. Yeah. That's such a great point. I mean, I think about that a lot politically, right? Like we are so young and there's so many people like I, mean, I've said this to you before. I'm, I'm so, I love Conan O'Brien. I listened to his podcast. I think he is so funny. I'm sure he is a very, you know, human person and has his own flaws just as much as anyone else. I certainly don't idolize him to that degree, but I would love to Abby: Hmm. Chelsea Henderson: be friends with him, right? Or like, just to like sit in a room and fuck around and laugh. Like, I think that is one of the most incredible ways to, ⁓ revolt keeps coming to my mind, but that's not the word I'm trying to think of, but just the pushback, right? It's like, you've heard this, I've heard this before from, you know, survivors of, of concentration camps is like, they can't take what's in our heads and our hearts, right? And that Abby: Hmm. Chelsea Henderson: There's something there about comedy for me that feels that way of like, you know, this, this jackass regime that's running this country right now. That's what I think of them, right? I think it's a complete and utter farce of like the worst lack of parenting or the worst parenting that's ever happened coming to fruition in these grown humans who are just like, wah on a public stage. And I think it's harmful and sad and scary and all those things. And for me, Abby: Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: to laugh and not even go there and not give them my attention just feels so potent and helpful. And I think someone like Conan O'Brien for me really helps to bring that out. And I forgot why the hell I was saying that. So now I'm just talking about Conan for no reason, but. Please. Abby: Hmm. Well, you triggered a memory in me that I can share. I remember when my mom was a spanker. She was a fan of corporal punishment in that way, just because that's what she learned from her family. Sucks for me. For me, yeah. But I remember as I started to get a little bit older, there was one time where she was, her or my dad was spanking me. And I started to laugh because I felt like Chelsea Henderson: Yes. And I'm sorry for that. To you. Yes. Mmm. Abby: If I just don't give in, I don't cry, I don't say, please stop, I'm sorry. I'm just gonna laugh even though it hurts. And I think I even said it tickles, even though it didn't. Because I was like, this just makes me feel more empowered in this moment because I can choose to say, you're not hurting me. You think you're hurting me. You think you have power over me. You think you're in control. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Yep. ⁓ my god. ⁓ honey. Yes. Yes. Right. Yeah. Abby: But actually in this moment I can choose to laugh and say, it just tickles. What you're doing is fucking useless. It's not gonna work on me anymore. And it was around that age that I think they realized, I think she's getting too old to spank. Because she's like figured out that she could just, you know, she's connecting to her power. And it's, think shortly after that the spanking stopped. Because it was like, ⁓ yeah, no, this is, I'm in control here. Chelsea Henderson: Ha ha. She's coming back for us. Yes? Abby: That just made me think of that and when it comes to this regime and Trump and everything, like right now on the news is him posting that picture of him being Jesus and the amount of memes that have... No, he didn't. He's a... No, he's a fucking liar. Also, AI does not create that picture if you say, made me look like a doctor. AI will make that picture when you say, make me look like Jesus. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. I can't even with that picture. I thought I looked like a doctor. Like what kind of doctor do you go to? You're so kidding me. He's totally a liar. ⁓ no. Yeah. Abby: But anyway, the amount of memes and the internet is so funny. It's just people making fun of him. And I'm like, that's our way to fight back in a lot of ways. It's like, you think you're in control here and you look like a fucking idiot. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah, it's incredible. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yes. And your wounds are so clear. Right. I mean, that's the thing. And I think it is showing us and to your point about being a young country, I think it is showing us that, you know, we still have a lot of wounds. We're a country that was started. We had a bumpy start, you know, we forced people out of their lives and homes and we we forced them through torture and pain and fear to build this country for us. And we. Abby: Mmm, so clear. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: built this country because we left having a tantrum. We didn't want to listen to daddy anymore. We were leaving and we're not going to let you tell us what to do. And so we came here and we still love to talk about freedom. And yet we've evolved in as you know, with industrialists at the helm and capitalism. And now the freedom that most people seem super excited about actually doesn't really look like freedom to me. You know, it's the freedom to choose which gray SUV you prefer and which Abby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: shitty fast food you prefer is like, okay. Like, and look, I will be very clear. I am very, very grateful that I was born in this time in this country. And there is freedom for me to have pursued advanced degrees, to pursue a marriage where I am one of two human beings who are together in a marriage and run a home, you know, where no one forced me. Abby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: to be circumcised as a female where no one forces me to have sex, where I can sit here and talk to you about those men that might have acted inappropriately. But that's as far as they got because I had the freedom to be like, are you fucking kidding me right now? Get your dick off me, dude. You're gross. Like, and they left, right? Like, so like there's something there that like is very powerful and I do not take that for granted. And I think also that the youthfulness Abby: Yeah. Come. Chelsea Henderson: of this country is, I think, very core to what we're talking about here. And you're right, I think we feel that. You know, that might be, or I would imagine really is a big part of my, that duality that I feel, right? Am I a good girl who's nice and I'm just the mom who's soft and the friend who's soft and I just love everyone? Or am I the rage monster who will come? Abby: Hmm. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: you with a baseball bat if you look at me sideways or you talk shit to my kid, right? you know, that's, that's, I don't have to I can, it turns out actually, I am both because that's happening. It's all in here. And there's also a lot of other things, right? I can be Abby: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Chelsea Henderson: you know, very impulsive. I can be very pragmatic. I can be very quiet and listen very well, or I can be super excited and talk over everyone because I just really want to be heard. And, you know, I'm complicated and nuanced because I'm a human. And we might be as a culture just stumbling into that moment of recognition. And right now it looks divisive. Right. And I think even for us, like talking about Abby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: the feminine and masculine of it all, right? Talking about that, like, you know, maybe we are entering into a phase where we're going to start to realize it doesn't have to be, you know, Portland or Salt Lake City. It's just, you know, and I, and we can hold it all. Abby: Mmm. Yeah, and it's okay if it's okay if Salt Lake City isn't the place. It's okay if Portland isn't the place and it's okay to go somewhere else. I think it's just very natural and very human. mean, ⁓ tribes all over have had their different cultures and I think we're just really young in figuring it out. Like we're so young. Reading the Westerns I've been reading and things lately, I'm like, this was like my grandparents. Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Abby: my grandparents age, that this is so new. What we're trying to do here is kind of a big experiment and we're doing it in a modern time with technology and we're all just trying to figure it out. I also am thinking about the Enneagram right now, which people who have listened to the show might know I love the Enneagram. If you're familiar with the Enneagram, this is great, but I was listening to a podcast about the Enneagram. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Mmm. Hmm. Hmm? Abby: And she was saying that as you get older and as you do your work and you heal and you go to therapy and whatever, you will begin to integrate parts of all types. And it's about, because each of us are a whole. So when you integrate all types into your personality, then maturity is knowing when to wield the tool or the power of each type. So that. Chelsea Henderson: of that. Yeah. Abby: is that anger, you know? The nine is the peacekeeper and the seven is the enthusiast. Like even when you were just talking about like sometimes I'm like just fun and extroverted and wanna have a party and sometimes I wanna rage and sometimes I wanna, you know, do art and be moody or whatever it is. It's like, where do we, just kind of knowing when to pull out each tool and like I'm a six so I can think about every worst case scenario that could possibly happen to me. Chelsea Henderson: Mmm. I know. I know. No. Abby: It's not a great way to live, but it makes me a fucking great nurse. So I wield that at work. I wield it at work. Yeah, I'm like, okay, what's all the worst case scenarios that could happen to you after the surgery? I'm gonna think about all of them and it makes me a really great nurse, but I don't wanna bring that power into my personal life, because it will eat me alive. So it was a really interesting way to think about it and just humans. Yeah, me too. Chelsea Henderson: ⁓ great point. That is a great point. Yes. Ugh. ⁓ my god. I love that. love that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I've been, I've been really getting that a lot from my astrology recently. It's like, stop. Even in this conversation, I feel like I'm always qualifying, right? It's like, I'm almost always just wanting to apologize for the parts of me that don't feel just easily accepted. And I think that's that codependency. That's that cultural influence, right? That's that. Abby: Hmm. Chelsea Henderson: that me who's still learning how to care for myself, right, so that I can come to the table fully with a cupful. ⁓ And ⁓ that there's the, ⁓ I don't even know if this relates to my Enneagram sign. I'm a four and all I really know about that is that I'm a drama queen. But there's a certain power there that my astrological Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: chart has been kind of pushing me toward of just like, just be willing to step into who you are and share it and be okay with the fact that like, it's an offering to the people that it's the right fit for. And anybody else, that's okay, just let it go. Like that need to qualify, that need to apologize. That's just energy I don't need to spend. Like if I hurt someone's feelings directly, yes, absolutely. Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: take that moment, apologize. That is not my intention. And I have definitely, like anybody, and I've had my feelings hurt before. And that's just the reality of being human. But that there's something about just being who you are that, you know, I think this moment is really calling for. And to the point of the beginning of this conversation, I think that is really core. Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: to some of this work that we're exploring of like, you authentically, no matter where you live, no matter what you do with your hair, that energy showing up is the offering and same for all of us, right? So maybe where we live and all of that is gonna have an effect and it's certainly gonna have an effect on how we feel, but there's a moment happening now where awareness is growing around. Abby: Hmm. Mm. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: You know, we are all one, we are all the same and each of us is slight variation of that same. Every single one of us is different and the same at the same time. So own it! Yes! Abby: Mm-hmm. And own it, yeah, and owning it. I think that's some of the medicine of a city like Portland, because in the United States, Portland is probably, I would say, one of the most controversial cities in terms of politically, in terms of on the more liberal side, the more, you know, that, but they're not trying to be the city for everyone. You know, there's that energy there of like, Chelsea Henderson: Mmm, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. No, that's true. Abby: Love me or hate me, this is me. Take it or leave it. And if it's for you, great. You will be welcomed here. You will feel like home here. And if it is not, you are gonna feel very uncomfortable here, very uncomfortable. And potentially we will be a little aggressive towards you. And so maybe your place is Austin and it's, you know, the cowboy boots and the hats and music and that's your place. Like more bras. Chelsea Henderson: Right, take it or leave it. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah Probably more bras. Abby: maybe some Botox, I've never been to Austin. But yeah, just like, I think the more that each of us can be unapologetically ourselves, and even potentially move to places that we just feel accepted, it's just kind of like a great migration of, you know, creating a culture. We're a new country, we're creating our cultures. ⁓ And just permission to do that. And another thing I was thinking about while you were talking was the Handmaid's Tale. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Abby: which is one of my favorite shows, and talk about rage of women. They capture so beautifully the book and the show. The show captured so powerfully the rage of oppressed women and the power behind that rage to become straight up warriors for a rebellion. Chelsea Henderson: Mm. Mm-mm. The book crushed me. I couldn't watch the show. Mm-mm. Yeah. Abby: And like rage is powerful, rage is beautiful, rage is needed. It's knowing, I think, for all of the gifts, where and when to focus it and on who. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Bye! The balance, it's always the balance. know, I know. Well, and what was coming up for me when you were talking is inclusivity. You know, I think for us in building Modern Sacred and having these conversations, we talk a lot about collaboration versus competition and inclusivity versus exclusivity. Exclusivity is another defense mechanism. It's a safe place. Abby: Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: I would argue it's more of a masculine energy than a feminine energy, and I'm sure that it has its place. But in most modern settings, I'm finding for myself, collaboration is much more powerful and much more full of potential for us as a collective and even individually. mean, you and I coming together and recognizing we were doing similar work and doing it together. It's like Dolores Cannon says, it's two lights shine bright, but two lights together. It's not just double. It's, you know, Abby: Hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: magnified on a different level. And I think that's the power of collaboration and that inherently has to be inclusive, right? And inclusivity is a part of this conversation that I think is a little more tricky because I think that, you know, if you're someone who's just flying the MAGA flag and is like, you know, anti-science, even though you Abby: Mm. Chelsea Henderson: drive a modern vehicle and watch television and you want all the things, right? I think that you're coming into a place like Portland or Denver or you're coming into my house and it's like, we got to stop right there. What you are representing is just so far different, right? But if we are looking at Abby: Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: ⁓ evolving as a species, right? Some of this primitive, some of this like tribal has to fall away. Like we're entering into a world now where we're more interconnected than ever. I mean, you go back not that long and it wasn't really possible for us to just leave where we came from. That was a way, way bigger venture than it is now. You know, now it's doable. Everybody does it. Everybody moves. Everybody travels. All these things. Abby: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: We take it for granted. And I think that there's something about for myself challenging myself to be as inclusive as I can and something like deep rage and something like deep kumbaya. It's exclusive, right? And I have to be aware of that. Like the messiness of just saying I'm holding all these things at the same time and just that's what that is. And the take me or leave me but in a way that is Abby: Mm. Mmm. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: an offering rather than a fuck you feels like it's kind of heading towards that inclusivity, but it feels very challenging right now because you know, there does feel like an either or there of like either fit in in this area or you don't. And if you don't, then we're going to be kind of like, bye, you know, and then it's like, well, what are we doing there? Right. Like, so I don't know. I just wonder with some of this stuff and I think Abby: Mmm. All and then it's more assimilation. Chelsea Henderson: When we're talking about things like this she economy idea of like this insecurity that is kind of been built into us foundationally from growing up in this system in this world in this country at this moment, you know, that's something that I feel like can be an antidote to that. But I don't always know how to hold that space and how to introduce that because I don't always feel like I'm accomplishing it myself. Right. If I were Abby: Hmm. Hmm. Chelsea Henderson: truly inclusive, I would probably be less self-deprecating and I would probably be less extreme because I would be able to say, ⁓ darling, you're angry right now, right? Are you hungry? The same thing I do with my son. Are you hungry? Are you tired? Do you need to just go outside and just shake it off, scream it out, run it out? Like you're a human being. You're full of chemicals and they're fully reacting all the time. Like how do we deal with that? ⁓ And I think that Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: That is something that keeps coming up for me is that when we're talking about healing these wounds, addressing these wounds, how can we do it in a way that is continuing to lean toward inclusivity and collaboration? And I think we talk about that in the sense of the masculine feminine energy too, right? Like that's less a gender thing and more of an energetic thing. We don't want to get rid of the masculine. We just want to rebalance it with the feminine, but we have to be conscious of that. Abby: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's such a hard question. Inclusive, like what's inclusivity and what's allowing poor behavior? yeah, just where our country's at right now politically, energetically, where our world is at with extraction and capitalism alongside people like Chelsea Henderson: Seriously, and what's codependence, right? Abby: wonderful Julie, shout out Julie, building an urban farm and making her own plum wine and being a wound care nurse to the people in her community. ⁓ Like there is beauty alongside all of this like corruption and taking and extraction. It's just such a hard time to be a human. I feel like most times throughout history have been hard times to be a human because if it, you know, if you... Chelsea Henderson: I love that woman. Yeah. ⁓ I agree. Abby: didn't have all the cultural political stuff, well you're gonna be dead at 40 from like appendicitis. And it's just, yeah, it's hard to know how to balance it all, but I really like what you are saying in terms of the call is coming from inside the house, is diversity internally and just like I'm a diverse being, can be rageful, I can be... Chelsea Henderson: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Abby: Peaceful, can be sassy as hell, I can be a peacemaker and hear everybody's side. It does usually tell me what I'm feeling and how I need to take care of myself, which are two of the most powerful questions is what am I feeling and what do need? And just starting there, but yeah, there's no answers. It's just living life as a human. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: ⁓ huh. Yeah. Mmm. No, no. And even if there are, they change. The answer right now is not going to be the answer in a couple hours. I mean, that's one of the trickiest parts about this. And I say this to my son all the time. I'm like, I'm the adult here. I'm the mom. I'm the parent. You're the kid. There are certain things that are expected of me to be able to hold constantly. And I'm up for the job of that. Abby: Mm-mm. I know. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: And I'm also going to tell you, and I'm going to be real transparent, this stuff is shifting for me minute by minute, hour by hour, the same as you, because it is the way that we are built as creatures. And I just have developed over these decades on the planet through experience how to hold that and let it happen a little more gracefully, how to stay ahead of some of it. But that doesn't mean that much. I mean, today coming in here. Abby: Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: I, you know, I had my big workout this morning. I'm pumped and I'm fucking angry, man. And I'm like, let's, you know, and it's like, can feel it and I can feel the shame that has been put on me my whole life of people just being like, girl, calm down. Like you're you're you're shutting me down. You're you're triggering me, you know, and it's like, and I want to hear that so bad, but I I it feels so personal to me. It feels like dismissal. And I. Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: And I think that that is this, man, I feel like I've been talking about this a lot this episode, but it's like that, you know, that is like the challenge, right? It's like, that's where I am today. So then hold it, allow it, and don't feel sorry about it, right? Don't go back to that story of the person that told you that they were triggered by you. Just that was them. That was then. It's over, right? Just keep on kind of cycling through the feelings. Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: but I'm holding a lot. Abby: Yeah, mean, we're holding a lot. And like I said, might not feel good for you internally, but I love raging Chelsea. I think she gives me lot of permission. And some people, they love anxious Abby, you know, because it'll be like, ⁓ like Abby can get really, yeah, she makes me feel safe. She makes me feel less crazy for the worst case scenarios I play out. Like we were at the airport and there was all these people that said, Chelsea Henderson: haha Thank you. ⁓ absolutely. You make me feel safe. Yes. Abby: Woo, outside, and Zach was like, oh, I wonder what's going out. And I was like, it's probably a mass shooter. And Zach was like, wow, that's where your brain goes. I'm like, yes, that's where my brain goes. Your brain did not go there? What do you mean? Where did your brain go? And he was like, I thought maybe something cool is happening. Maybe there's a celebrity or something fun. I'm like, no, my brain goes to the worst case scenario. And that can be a real downer. It can be a real downer when it's uncontrolled. Chelsea Henderson: What? on yeah Bye. Okay fair, if it had been a mass shooter, you would have already had a plan and you would have gotten him to the place where you would be the most safe and you would have saved yourselves. Abby: but other times it can be comforting. ⁓ yeah. I tell Zach all the time, people will say something happened and we'll whatever and I'll say it, that would never happen to me. Like, he was like, okay, in Portland, you're gonna have to be really careful about when you open your door that you don't hit a biker. And I was like, that will never happen to me. I always look, I always look, that's not gonna happen. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah ⁓ Yeah, No. Always checking that rear view. Every time. No. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Abby: And that's the benefit of my type and my skills is I'm a good person to have around, know, when it comes to problem solving or thinking about things that might happen. I'm a great nurse. But yeah, it can also eat me alive, you know? it's, yeah, just knowing how to wield all of that. I don't know how it all connects to the she economy that we were talking about in the beginning, but it's gotta connect somewhere. Chelsea Henderson: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've really dived deep on our own insecurities ⁓ in this episode. I feel like that's extremely relevant because it's going to look different for all of us. But the fact that we're even aware of it and talking about it shows how entrenched we've been in it and how we're attempting to shine light on it through these conversations. Abby: Yeah, hello everyone, welcome to our insecurities. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: And how I think we came to something beautiful here in the end that like better, worse, know, dark light, all the different aspects of our nuanced, you know, humanness. When we come together, you know, that that's a pretty powerful team. If, you know, if we need some protection, my anger can rise up and help with that. If we need some nurturing, my soft side can come in. If we need some, you know, planning and. awareness about our surroundings. You can be there to do that if we need some tender care, you can be there to do that. Like it's this beautiful convergence of what we offer. But you and I and all of us have to be willing to be honest with ourselves and each other about the nuanced beings and offerings that we have, good and bad, right? And whatever that means. mean, that's good and bad. That's subjective. And it's also a man-made construct. Abby: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: You know, we have to hold it. Yeah. Yeah. Abby: Yeah, it's leaving room for differences too, which is another lesson I've been, that's been coming up throughout what I read or just popping up places is to leave room for differences, both on the large scale with culturally our country having so many divisions and differences, but also like person to person, know, Zach's gonna be a little bit more of a critique, a critical, you know, this could be better, that could be better. And that's beautiful. He makes a kick ass camper van. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Hmm. Absolutely. Abby: and builds beautiful things and he's an excellent handyman ⁓ and he just does beautiful work because he wants it to be perfect. And also that can be hard to be around. ⁓ But leaving room for differences. It's easy for me to just want him to be like me or for me to just want to find some guy who's just like me. But then they'll have differences and me and you. We've talked about how I hate driving. Chelsea Henderson: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Right. Hopefully. Yeah. Abby: and you are like, I wanna drive. I'm like, you will never have to fight me for driving. can... I'm like, and control freak, I'm like, I absolutely hate being in the driver's seat. I would love it for you to drive every time. And that's beautiful because we're different. We're not gonna be fighting because we both want control in the driver's seat. I'm like, I will give it up freely forever. Chelsea Henderson: i'm defensive and aggressive, are you kidding me? yeah, and i'm a control freak, so pfft come on Yeah? ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yes. Ugh. Abby: So like leaving room for those differences can be great and maybe they can be challenging in different ways, but I don't know. Leaving room for our differences within ourselves, differences with our relationships, differences culturally. If Salt Lake wants to be the plastic surgery capital of the world, let it, but I don't have to live here and be a part of it. And how can I love them from afar? From Portland, just try not to be. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Abby: too critical of it. It's like, yeah, it's not for me. I don't get it. I think it's a waste. I don't like how they're watering the lawns of the golf courses. I think there's a lot of ethical shit there. But also, like, they're gonna have to figure that out for themselves when the water runs out, because it is running out. And like, that's not my problem. Sending you love. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Yes. That is problematic. Yeah. No, Yeah, absolutely. And there's something in that acceptance that feels very inclusive. And I think that starting with that internal call, you know, like that is the work. That is what we're having this conversation for because throughout this hour and some odd minutes, I have done a little bit more healing in that regard. Abby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: Right. And I hopefully am going to take that with me and maybe give someone else permission in my interactions with them on an energetic level to hold all of that. Right. It's I could have spent this entire time pretending like that didn't exist for me and kind of stayed stuck. And there's something about as messy as it is and how triggering as it may be that that is what we're doing here. And I think that is that's that's powerful. So Abby: Yeah. Right. And to be seen and loved for who you are. you know, yeah. Yeah, and just different ways of being. Like, I'm thinking of Lord of the Rings, because I watched it recently. There's Gimli, who's angry and like bloodthirsty, and there's Legolas, and like very calm, very quiet, very, you know, perfect face and hair. And it's like, they have Chelsea Henderson: Yeah, and to see and love the people getting the plastic surgery, right? That's their journey. of. us. Mmm. Yeah. Abby: you know, the dwarves and the elves have been at war for all of that little kingdom, whatever, in that fantasy world, because they're so different. And the beauty between their relationship in that movie is that these very two different beings can come together and create a friendship because they leave room for differences. And like, that's where I kind of, I get a lot out of Rageful Chelsea and we need some rage in our society. You know, I... Chelsea Henderson: Okay. and Mmm. Abby: just bathe you in acceptance for who you are. And I, like, if you're raging out, I'm never, like, bummed. But I'm bummed for you because I know it drains your energy, but I'm not like, wish Chelsea was different, because I don't wish that you were different. I think it's one of, like, the best things about you to be around. It gives me a lot of permission to get a little upset, to flip someone off that cut me off. Like, it's okay to get, Abby, you can get a little upset, okay. And, you know, Chelsea Henderson: No! Ugh. No. I love that. Yeah, you're person. You matter. Abby: It gives me permission and I wouldn't change it. So, you know, it's just how we harness it. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: I love you. Thank you. I feel this exact same way. I love it when your neurotic side comes out around stuff where you're like, okay, but what about this? And we have we done this? I'm like, I hadn't even thought of that. I'm just barreling on and I'll just use my anger to defend me when I fucking up later. Like, ⁓ that's not a great way to go. Like, we can do better. And together we do better. Right. I think there's that acceptance of the whole of who each other really is and and who we are. Abby: Exactly. Exactly. Chelsea Henderson: Right? That that's the shift. That's the change. And I think just to bring it back as we're at the end here, when we are talking about this ingrained insecurity and whether or not we should do these things, those are very personal, very human decisions that we each have to make. And that is all okay, no matter which way you go. But the acceptance within ourselves that can then splash out onto those around us, I think is a big Abby: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Chelsea Henderson: big part of the healing that we're all kind of looking to wrap our arms around right now. At least anybody who's been with us for this long in this conversation is trying to do that because we want to be present with this life and with this moment, this existence, for whatever reason that we're here and we're all doing this together. So there is that. Abby: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea Henderson: that energetic shift, right? The vibration, the frequency feels like it gets higher when we come to that place. Abby: Hmm. Yeah, yeah. And it's part of what makes the United States of America the most diverse place. As we got a lot going on. We have a lot going on here. We have lots of different people from different places and different cultures forming and you know, there's a lot of problems with that as well. We're figuring it out. We are, we will not figure it out in my lifetime, I don't think, but. Chelsea Henderson: So diverse. That is incredible. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, we are. Yeah. Abby: It's a long scale and I think the real topics that we cover today is assimilation, diversity and inclusion. Like when do you assimilate? When do you say I'm different in this way? And when do you just accept that's diversity versus assimilation and inclusion? And there's a quote from Richard Rohr who is a Franciscan father who we really love his books. He talks about transcend and include. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Abby: We transcend from one way of consciousness into another, but we so often then turn around and say, you idiots, down there where I just came from, and how could you not know all the things that I know, even though that's where I just was last year. So he talks about, yes, transcend and then include, and that I think is what we want with this podcast as well. Chelsea Henderson: Totally. Ha ha. Right, yes. Look at me! Uh huh. Uh huh. Totally. Ugh. Abby: We talk about a range of topics where people might say, never thought about the impact of my three from five panties. That's something I didn't know. That's transcending and including is having the conversation, trying to be inclusive to different people. But also there are gonna be people who listen to this podcast and say, that is not for me. And that's okay. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah, me too. I'm like, it's probably not for you. Chelsea Henderson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Uh huh. Absolutely. I've been there. Did I listen to Charlie Kirk's podcast? No, I did not. So, you know, that's okay. That's many people did and that spoke to them. So, you know, that I think is the inclusion and the acceptance, right? It's like we accept that they exist too and they matter too. So, man, I would not want to be on this journey of acceptance and inclusivity and Abby: Exactly. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and that's feminine. Cool. Chelsea Henderson: messy humanists with anyone else. I love you so much. Thanks for this conversation. And thank you to anyone who joined us. And we will be back with you next time. Excited to keep the conversation going. Okay, lots of love. Reach out. Bye. Abby: I love you too, girl. Yeah. Alright. Rage out.