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Crypto, Geopolitical Risks and Motorcycles · Bloomberg Intelligence

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney alongside
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: Every business day we bring you interviews from CEOs, market pros,
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: and Bloomberg experts, along with essential market moven news.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Find the Bloomberg Markets podcast called Apple Podcasts or wherever
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts, and at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get right to it. Nicholas Bonsak Joints and
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: he's the CEO and president of Strateigas Securities. Now in
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: your bio page, Nick, it says fifty two Vanderbilt Avenue.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Is that where your offices are?
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: That's where we are.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Is that the new building? No, No, that's not the
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: new build.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: That's one.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: That's one Vanderbilt. Okay. I was just wondering if anybody's
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: been in there.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: Six Its one block and much fancier away.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: It looks amazing, but it is is it filled? You know?
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: I don't think the capacity is a hunt Yeah.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Anyway, Matt, this is one Vanderbilt is righted by Grand Central,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: massive new office tower, probably one of the newest, biggest
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: ones in the city's I've walked by it. Yeah, So
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: I was just wondering AnyWho, All right, Nick, what are
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: we doing here with this market? I just put up
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: the SPX and kind of looked at on a trailing
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: twelve month spasis rolling down three point two percent. What's
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: the big thing here? I don't get it.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: You're just looking at the last twelve months, right, Yeah,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: because if you just look at twenty twenty two, it
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: was a lot lot Oh.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: I know that I live through that, But if you
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: just got to put in perspective, it's like, eh, we've
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: kind of come back a little bit off those lows
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: here from October November pretty impressively. What do you guys
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: telling your clients these days?
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think when we look at the landscape, it
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: seems like these building blocks for a recession and for
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: a contracting economy are almost impossible to avoid. And so
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: when you think back over the length of time these
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: bear markets that are around global de leveragings, they're going
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: to post very very strong counter trend rallies, and it's
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: just our sense that we're in one of those right now.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: And moreover, the market's gotten very very narrow from the top,
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: so it's Fang and friends that are sort of leading
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: us here.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: So what's the I mean, what drives us to a
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: recession ultimately? Is it credit crunch? Is it dropping capex?
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, because we have three and a half percent
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: on employment still and yeah, you know we see companies
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: beating expectations.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Uh did you see earnings?
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, are are companies putting out decent EPs growth or.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Actually they're declining, but they're beating expectations. So it's a
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: revenue the story margin downstory.
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think when you look at
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: the margin contraction and went to your question where the
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: market goes, it's earnings and interest rates on one side,
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: and liquidity and labor on the other side.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: And liquidity and labor are winning.
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: You know, I would I would make the point as
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: as as Paul, did you know with respect to the
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: earnings the earnings results, they're okay, but you know, so
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: far those expectations have continued to come way in and
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: your earnings are expected to be flat?
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Yere on here, all right, talk to us about Matt
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: likes this flat would be great?
• 2:47
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Flat Wouldlast week we were talking to Phil Orlando last
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: week and things S and P earnings this year going
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: to be one hundred and ninety dollars compared to like
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: twenty last year.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's not good. Now we need to up year.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: It's last year. It's the like the immaculate deleveraging exactly.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: All right, Matt likes this ETF business. You've got to
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: strategius macro thematic opportunities. ETF symbol is sa MT. What
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: are you guys doing in that ETF.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So when you look at thematic investing, and particularly
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: thematic ETFs, they are almost always monoligned. They come out
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: with one big idea which requires the investor to be
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: right on the time and right on the theme. And
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  Speaker 4: the nature of our work is thematic and moreover, it's
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: this idea of thematic rotation. So we want to be
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: able to have the flexibility to see the themes that
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  Speaker 4: are gathering momentum in the marketplace and rotate into them
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  Speaker 4: and have some exposure to them for a period of
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: time and then move along.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: As the business cycle does.
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  Speaker 4: And so this thematic ETF really will have exposures three
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: or four or five themes at a time and then
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: move on as they evolve.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: So what kind of themes are we talking about?
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  Speaker 4: So right now, our biases are a little bit more defensive,
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: so we actually have recession protection is an important theme.
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: Cash flow risk detocrats is another important theme. And then
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: a third, which is a little off pieced from the
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: business cycles specifically, is deglobalization.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Is de globalization really a thing? I grew up when
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: we're all about globalization. I mean, if you didn't do
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: a stint in Tokyo and you didn't do a stint
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: in London, you had no career on Wall Street?
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: Correct, I mean, is that a thing?
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: So globals? I mean, really, how much can you really deglobalize?
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, Apple is still going to be making a
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: ton of stuff in China.
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I have I had the same view, perhaps you did,
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: or at least as is suggested by the nature of
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: your question, before Russia invaded Ukraine and so before that,
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: I thought deglobalization was.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: Some sort of an academic talking point.
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: But now you have supply chain, now you have sort
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: of reshoring, Now you have sort of this BiPOL this
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: polarization where you've got, you know, new groups of countries
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  Speaker 4: that are banding together, maybe not outwardly to be against
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: the United States, but ostensibly could be against the United States.
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: And so companies and countries are going to have to
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: pull together their resources in a very different way than
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: we did, you know for the eighty year after the
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: Second World War.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: It'll be interesting because uh, you know, it's friend shoring
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: more than on shoring, right, because we're not bringing that's
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: a production back to just the US. We're also putting
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: it in Mexico and Canada, and it seems like that's
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: going to work. You have another ETF, right, the strateigous
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Global Policy Opportunities ETF.
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: What's that about, same idea with thematic rotation, but far
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: less dependence, almost no dependence on the business cycle and
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: all dependence on the political cycle.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: So as the winds have change blowing Washington and we've.
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: Got an all democratic uh you know, Congress and White House,
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: or the opposite measure and Republican, we will move the
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: themes around.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: To be offensive and defensive.
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  Speaker 4: Companies vote with their money for better or for worse,
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: and we view that and I believe we've been able
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: to shown dead over time that helps their earnings grow.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: So what what made you get into this?
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, before you started Strategius, you were at some
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: of the most important businesses on the street Morgan Stanley
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: is SI legendary stuff. Right, then you go in with
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Jason to start Fritiguis what got you into the ETF
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: side of things?
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: Well, Macro, which is our business, is pretty low barrier
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: to entry. If you've got enough of you go in
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: an email system, you can be in the business. So
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: we decided we would try to find the investable conclusion
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: with every research note we put out, and that ultimately
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: became stock baskets. And then when you look at those
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: stock baskets over time, they basically fall into three time categories.
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: You've got really short dated stuff that nobody can invest in,
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: you're so close to it it's impossible. But then you've
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: got intermediate term stuff and long term stuff, and those
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: things are very interesting for portfolio construction. So we got
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: into the stock basket business. That became themes and then
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: clients started asking, hey, this would be really great if
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: we could put it into a managed account, and then
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: you evolve into ETFs.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: So what are the assets and management for your ETFs? Generally, so, we.
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: Have just over one hundred million in the complex we
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: lost we launched them late last year, and we managed
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  Speaker 4: about eight hundred million in our asset manager.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: And you guys are staying with thematic investing? Is that
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: kind of where you guys think you add vague?
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  Speaker 3: That's where we're comfortable.
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  Speaker 4: There's a lot of people who do a lot of things,
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: and we think we're comfortable with thematic.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: And I mean you're macro masters, right, That's why people
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: go to strtigis what do you think about You've already
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: given us your view on recession.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: How does the FED.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: React to that? They're likely going to raise next week?
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  Speaker 2: I think that's a consensus overwhelmingly. Do they raise again
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: after that? Are they going to cut in twenty twenty three?
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: These are the questions we ask everyone, So what's your take?
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: Listen. We do think they're going to go again.
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: We think the labor market gives them more than sufficient
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: cover to do so. Our view is that the Powell
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: and the FED are very worried about what happened in
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: the nineteen seventies and they want to make sure that
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: they arrest inflation expectations back to an acceptable level. They'll
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: probably pause thereafter. My suspicion is that they've done a
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: lot of damage to the economy that we haven't even
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: caught up with. Yet we'll probably cutting next year at
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: some point. But remember, a cut is not the same
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: optimism that pivot, you know, provided us. I mean a
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: cut is because something is broken, and that would be
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: when the recession comes hits us.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just can't you know, I hear the recession call.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: I just with unemployment at three and a half percent.
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, listen, labor and liquidity, right, So unemployment
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: is not giving you the signposts for a recession.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: It's also difficult for US equity knuckleheads to understand long
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: invariable lags. We just don't get that. I don't understand
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: what happens after next week.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: I never have.
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, most investors say, hey, the market's up, so
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: what's wrong?
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Cokette? A good quarter? Isn't that all I need to know?
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's why we need people like this, because
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: they actually look ahead, and we're not very good at.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: How concerned are you about the consumer out there? Because
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, admittedly, Matt and I don't we're kind of
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: stuck here in the metro New York area. We don't
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: get to see the real world. I don't think the
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: consumer's doing out there.
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: They are increasingly using credit as well, so transfer payments,
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: stop jobs are okay.
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: Savings dobbies are blowing through.
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: Their savings and don't listen, remember the money illusion when
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: this is all over. Inflation makes things look okay or
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: look better, and they're not. They're deteriorating on the inside.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I tell you I've had enough of this inflation thing.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm you know, well, I think you know what.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: We have had inflation paired with much higher bank balances
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: than we're used to because we all got free cash
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: passed out to us. And now that you know, we're
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: done saving money, so we're working off the bank balances.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Plus we're putting much more on credit cards. It's just
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: going to hit us. We're in a great mood and
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: everything looks great now yeap, until it hits us, and
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, next time we'll bring better news.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: All right, Nicholas, thanks so much for joining us. Nicholas Bonsaks,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: CEO and President of Strateigist Securities joining us live here
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: in our Bloomberg Interactive Brooker Studio, so we appreciate it.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Making the walk up from Midtown a couple of blocks away.
• 9:51
  Speaker 5: There you're listening to the team Ken's Are Live program
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: Bloomberg Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg dot com,
• 9:59
  Speaker 5: the Hard Radio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: listen on demand wherever you get your podcast.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: We're going to talk crypto, and my old buddy Matt
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Siegel is here in the studio.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Used to be he used to work here at Bloomberg.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Then he went to get a real job on Wall Street,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: and now he's over at van k where he runs
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: there Crypto Research MATC. Great to have you back in
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: the studio with us. Go ahead and put that microphone
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: right there in front of your face. And before we
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: get to the price action and what you think about
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: regulation and everything. I noticed that two new groups have
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: joined the I guess the competition to try and become
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: the executors of the bankrupt Celsius business.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: One of them is.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Errington Capital and a whole group of bidders under the
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: name Fahrenheit I guess, And another one is Gemini. And you, guys,
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: and you already work closely with the Winklev crypto business.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Why do you want to get into that into that race?
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Why do you think it would be helpful to help
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: to unwind Celsius?
• 11:09
  Speaker 6: Well, the bigger picture here, Matt, is that every crypto
• 11:12
  Speaker 6: lender has gone bankrupt and there are multiple bankruptcy cases
• 11:18
  Speaker 6: right now to try to sort out these assets and
• 11:21
  Speaker 6: maximize the return for customers and token holders.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: So we just saw last week that.
• 11:29
  Speaker 6: The bankruptcy judge in the Voyager case allowed that sale
• 11:33
  Speaker 6: to Binance to proceed. So all the leverage has been
• 11:37
  Speaker 6: brought out of this ecosystem with the bankruptcy of all
• 11:40
  Speaker 6: these lenders, and now it's for the bankruptcy courts to
• 11:43
  Speaker 6: clean up the mess and see who can maximize the
• 11:46
  Speaker 6: return for these unsecured creditors. So I can confirm, you know,
• 11:50
  Speaker 6: the court documents yesterday revealed that two additional bidders have
• 11:54
  Speaker 6: joined as qualified bidders to administer these assets and try
• 11:58
  Speaker 6: to maximize the return for token holders. Vanik has teamed
• 12:01
  Speaker 6: with Gemini on one of those bids, and we think,
• 12:05
  Speaker 6: you know, the details will be clear tomorrow at the auction,
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: but look forward to putting forward the case that we
• 12:13
  Speaker 6: have the best way to administer these assets in a
• 12:14
  Speaker 6: regulatory compliant way to maximize the return for the customers.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Is the lending business Is the crypto lending business dead?
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Just here in the US or is it worldwide? For example,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Nexso I talked to Anthony Trenschev quite a bit, and
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: right now I think he might be in Dubai because
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: he's not welcome in his country where there are lawsuits pending.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: But that business still exists, right Is it one of
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: the last Is it going to die out as well?
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Is there no good business case for crypto lending.
• 12:47
  Speaker 6: The business? The crypto lending business is dead in the
• 12:49
  Speaker 6: US for retail customers, so Nexo is now out of
• 12:53
  Speaker 6: that business. Everyone is out of that business. It's available
• 12:58
  Speaker 6: for institutional counter but there are few large balance sheets
• 13:02
  Speaker 6: participating in the space. And so one consequence of the
• 13:06
  Speaker 6: FTX bankruptcy is that an increasing amount of cryptoactivity has
• 13:10
  Speaker 6: moved on chain into self custody wallets and DeFi. That
• 13:15
  Speaker 6: is largely an x US phenomenon. So the short answer
• 13:19
  Speaker 6: to your question is, yes, it's dead in the US.
• 13:21
  Speaker 6: Has it moved overseas? And that's what we're seeing, you know,
• 13:24
  Speaker 6: with so many of these announcements. It's on the tape
• 13:26
  Speaker 6: today that Gemini is looking to set up an off
• 13:28
  Speaker 6: short derivatives exchange Coinbase, talking about that last week. There's
• 13:31
  Speaker 6: no other choice when the regulator here is presenting you know,
• 13:36
  Speaker 6: impossible paths.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Why is the crypto lending space dead? And what does
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: that say about the market overall or the regulators?
• 13:46
  Speaker 6: Well, it's the centralized lending space.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Why am I spending any attention on crypto space when
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: I can't even finance it? They can't get it financed?
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: Well, you can in DeFi, but there you know, there
• 13:58
  Speaker 6: needs to be larger balance sheets to step up and
• 14:00
  Speaker 6: fill the void that the collapse of these centralized lenders
• 14:03
  Speaker 6: has led to. And that you know, that's a fair criticism.
• 14:06
  Speaker 6: This is a bear asset, so it's a little more
• 14:09
  Speaker 6: difficult to set up a lend and borrow.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: So, as Matt mentioned, talk to us about the regulatory
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: aspect here, because just in your notes you say the
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Biden White House is trying to kill crypto? How are
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: they doing it? And at one point like so, why
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: would they want to do that? Don't we want to
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: lead that business?
• 14:26
  Speaker 6: Well, there's definitely mixed messages from the White House, right,
• 14:29
  Speaker 6: So on the one hand they like to say that
• 14:33
  Speaker 6: there's no value behind this tech, right, that it's a ponzi.
• 14:36
  Speaker 6: And on the other hand, the White House devoted more
• 14:38
  Speaker 6: than ten pages in their recent Economic outlook to talking
• 14:41
  Speaker 6: about crypto. So there's a bit of schizophrenia here as
• 14:45
  Speaker 6: to how much power this technology has. And I think
• 14:49
  Speaker 6: that's something that the policymakers are coming to terms with.
• 14:52
  Speaker 6: The Instincts of this White House are to micromanage and
• 14:56
  Speaker 6: control and crypto is you know, takes different mechanisms to
• 15:02
  Speaker 6: do that. We haven't sorted out what the rules are.
• 15:04
  Speaker 6: Regulators are asking for things that the ecosystem participants can't provide.
• 15:08
  Speaker 6: They're getting slapped with lawsuits and enforcement actions. Why not
• 15:12
  Speaker 6: just geofence US customers and move offshore? And that's what's
• 15:15
  Speaker 6: going to happen. And if you ask why it matters,
• 15:17
  Speaker 6: it's because the D dollarization theme is something that's real.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: You know multiple what is that theme? The D dollarization theme?
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Because I'm just going to speak for our audience.
• 15:26
  Speaker 6: It was on the View last week, Yeah, you know.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: The View with like Woope Goldberg.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Yes, oh they're talking about it and then everyone's talking
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: about it. So what I mean is that the tokenization
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: story that you're talking about or or do you mean
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: a move away from FIAT or just a move away
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: from the green back a.
• 15:47
  Speaker 6: Move away from the green back right. So many of
• 15:50
  Speaker 6: US trading partners partners are objecting to our debt and
• 15:54
  Speaker 6: definite deficit position, and are objecting to our use of
• 15:58
  Speaker 6: funds in Russia on US social programs whatever it may be. Well,
• 16:04
  Speaker 6: I mean Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, Russia, China each did
• 16:09
  Speaker 6: you know that even Japan is buying energy from Russia above.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: The US set price cap?
• 16:15
  Speaker 6: Because have you ever been to Tokyo in August? It's
• 16:17
  Speaker 6: kind of hard to live without affordable air conditioning. So
• 16:20
  Speaker 6: the realities that you can't print energy, you can only
• 16:23
  Speaker 6: print FIAT. That is coming into stark understanding by our
• 16:26
  Speaker 6: trading partners who are selling treasuries and looking for neutral
• 16:30
  Speaker 6: third party assets. We saw today in the Ft Central
• 16:34
  Speaker 6: Bank gold purchases were up one hundred and fifty percent
• 16:36
  Speaker 6: last year to a record, So gold has played that
• 16:40
  Speaker 6: role for millennia, right, and we think bitcoin has a
• 16:43
  Speaker 6: role to play there as well.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: So bitcoin moved up to over thirty thousand, has dropped
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: a little bit. I'm guessing people taking profit here, But
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: how come this asset? I mean, I guess you've already
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: answered that question. I was going to say, why do
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: people have faith even after the collapse of FTX and
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: now binance is under scrutiny. But you know it's going
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: to be difficult to deal if you can't trade it, right,
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Where are Americans going to go to buy and sell bitcoin?
• 17:13
  Speaker 6: Well, there still are a handful of exchanges operating in the.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: US, Armstrong even coinbase may consider moving out of the US.
• 17:21
  Speaker 6: That's right. So just an increasing amount of this activity
• 17:23
  Speaker 6: will take place overseas. It will take place in decentralized finance,
• 17:28
  Speaker 6: peer to peer, and you know the US government's going
• 17:31
  Speaker 6: to have to come to terms with that in some way.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: That's fascinating stuff. We're going to get you back in
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: here again.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: You're no idea what's going I bought my first bitcoin
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: at let's see you down on fourteenth Street in Alphabet City,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Webster Hall at Webster Hall in the bar for six
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: hundred dollars. But that's perod that was twenty twelve. That's
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: peer to peer, all right, Matt.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us here. Matt Siegel, he's
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: had of digital assets research at ven K.
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: You're listening to the take Cat's Are Live program Blomberg
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: Markets weekdays at ten Am Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App.
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Our next guest. We got to get to this guy,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Ed Price. He's a principled ergo non residents and your
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: fellow at NYU. We usual, we used to think of
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: as a reasonable guy, I mean, and we talked about
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: markets and stuff like that. Then I started seeing on
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: social media the dude was in Ukraine. I mean, ed,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: there's a war there, my friend. You turn around. You
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: avoid those types of places.
• 18:38
  Speaker 7: Go.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: What were you doing in Ukraine?
• 18:40
  Speaker 8: Tourism? Pool tourism, tourism, of course, yes, so just looking
• 18:43
  Speaker 8: around Kieve, spending some money. No, in all seriousness, it
• 18:47
  Speaker 8: was it was a personal trip. It was something that
• 18:48
  Speaker 8: I thought I had to do. Having out Yeah, I mean, look,
• 18:51
  Speaker 8: I've been on your show talking about Ukraine and it
• 18:53
  Speaker 8: seems a little bit like hotter unless I actually go
• 18:55
  Speaker 8: and see it for myself. So I met the Finance
• 18:58
  Speaker 8: Minister Sahe Machenko, I met other officials, I met some
• 19:02
  Speaker 8: others among the good guys, contingents.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: So what are your takeaways because we haven't spoken to
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: anybody who's been in the country.
• 19:10
  Speaker 8: Right, So there's two things going on. One you come out,
• 19:13
  Speaker 8: it's obviously a war zone, right. You appear in this
• 19:15
  Speaker 8: kind of Soviet era train station. There are soldiers saying
• 19:18
  Speaker 8: goodbye to their wives, metal detectors, sambag's air raid shelters,
• 19:21
  Speaker 8: the whole kaboodle. But on the other hand, Ukraine is
• 19:25
  Speaker 8: making a very concerted effort to develop its economy in
• 19:28
  Speaker 8: the manner of a potential EU member state. What does
• 19:31
  Speaker 8: that mean. Well, they're being very open. They're very open
• 19:33
  Speaker 8: with me about the corruption problem, which is a legacy
• 19:36
  Speaker 8: of the USSR. They're being very open about the fact
• 19:38
  Speaker 8: that they're trying to trying to digitize things, and they're
• 19:41
  Speaker 8: being very open in particular about the fact that they
• 19:44
  Speaker 8: don't think they've got enough weapons. So it's kind of like, yeah,
• 19:47
  Speaker 8: it's like a big war. I certainly heard and saw
• 19:50
  Speaker 8: the sites and sounds of war, but it's also an
• 19:53
  Speaker 8: economy that's striving for function and striving for positive GDP changes.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: So I think the main question from here is do
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: they have enough support from allies and does that support
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: hold right, because you're starting to see important political names
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: break away from the I stand with Ukraine narrative.
• 20:14
  Speaker 8: Right, it's a good observation, enough support for what And
• 20:18
  Speaker 8: I feel.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: They're going to launch a counter offensive in spring, right, Yes,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: it is a spring, so it's coming up.
• 20:24
  Speaker 8: Yes, I think it's imminent. From what I hear. Personal opinion,
• 20:27
  Speaker 8: I don't think they have been given enough to really
• 20:30
  Speaker 8: land a serious blow on the Russians. I think that
• 20:32
  Speaker 8: they can do some damage. The morale is high, their
• 20:35
  Speaker 8: special forces are excellent. They also have this kind of
• 20:37
  Speaker 8: weird open source method whereby you know, some dude with
• 20:41
  Speaker 8: a drone will meet someone else in a bar who
• 20:43
  Speaker 8: knows the artillery guy. You know you've heard about this.
• 20:46
  Speaker 8: But my opinion is that they don't. They haven't been
• 20:48
  Speaker 8: given enough to really kick the Russians out. But of
• 20:51
  Speaker 8: course if they do, you start getting into like gnari areas,
• 20:54
  Speaker 8: like crimea.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: All right, so I guess my question is are they
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: not fascinated that you met with people in the finance
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: department in the sense of aren't they just trying to
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: survive every day? But it sounds like, yes, they're fighting
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: a war on one hand, but they're also trying to operate,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: keep on with business as usual and try to do
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: what's right for the economy, do what's right for the
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: people and the vestments that need to be made there.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: So is that, in fact, it's a good observation.
• 21:21
  Speaker 8: They're basically running a fifty percent budget deficit and all
• 21:25
  Speaker 8: of their fiscal capacity is going into fighting the war
• 21:28
  Speaker 8: on the one hand, but also this kind of legacy
• 21:30
  Speaker 8: social spending that's again something from the USSR as was,
• 21:34
  Speaker 8: and the other fifty percent is coming in from international financing.
• 21:38
  Speaker 8: So they're very bullish, but they're also a little bit
• 21:39
  Speaker 8: nervous that if that drives up, they're going to have
• 21:41
  Speaker 8: to start making decisions that really look like extreme rationing
• 21:46
  Speaker 8: or indeed less spending in the army, albeit the spending
• 21:49
  Speaker 8: on the army's classified data. So I couldn't really get
• 21:51
  Speaker 8: to the bottom of that. But they need financing, They
• 21:55
  Speaker 8: need more financing.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Is there a point where you say, all right, we've
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: got to think about what happens after this, assuming that
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: Russia gets what it wants.
• 22:05
  Speaker 8: What would Russia getting what it wants be right?
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, a huge chunk of Ukraine beyond the chunk
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: they already have.
• 22:12
  Speaker 8: Yeah, it's difficult. So I was trying to be friends
• 22:15
  Speaker 8: with these guys, and when I floated that, I was like,
• 22:18
  Speaker 8: so what do you think if maybe.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: You know, is there a realistic view.
• 22:23
  Speaker 8: Yeah, it's difficult, I mean the very emotive. The first
• 22:26
  Speaker 8: couple of times you asked the third layer. The idea is, well, actually,
• 22:29
  Speaker 8: we can develop our economy regardless, and if we lose
• 22:33
  Speaker 8: some of that old Soviet style industry in the East,
• 22:36
  Speaker 8: if we lose access to some gas basins. We've done
• 22:39
  Speaker 8: the math and actually we can if we use, for example,
• 22:42
  Speaker 8: one percent of our agricultural land and devote that to
• 22:44
  Speaker 8: renewable energy, we can replace anything that Europe takes from
• 22:48
  Speaker 8: Russia in a combination of that and gas from Ukraine.
• 22:51
  Speaker 8: So once you scratch the surface, they really don't like it,
• 22:53
  Speaker 8: and I can see why, right, I mean I wouldn't
• 22:55
  Speaker 8: like it. But there is a viable Ukraine in the
• 22:59
  Speaker 8: U and in NATO regardless.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: So what is the timing on the EU and NATO
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: and maybe just greater you know, movement towards the west
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: for Ukraine. Where are we because it just seems like
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: the war is just obviously taking front and center everything
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: everybody's attention.
• 23:16
  Speaker 8: Yeah, look, the EU membership thing is a bit more
• 23:19
  Speaker 8: difficult than NATO. I think NATO could probably just you know,
• 23:22
  Speaker 8: decree that Ukraine was in with with greater ease, pretend.
• 23:28
  Speaker 8: Possibly it kind of is pretending right now, right kind
• 23:30
  Speaker 8: of is in NATO. But I mean the EU, I mean, look,
• 23:33
  Speaker 8: it needs things like a stable border, it needs full transparency,
• 23:37
  Speaker 8: it needs like commitment to whatever the equivalent of the
• 23:39
  Speaker 8: Growth Instability Pact is, and by their owners mission, the
• 23:42
  Speaker 8: Ukrainians are not quite there yet. This is the entire discussion.
• 23:45
  Speaker 8: So EU memberships are way away. I mean, my joke
• 23:48
  Speaker 8: with the Finance Minister was that maybe the UK and
• 23:50
  Speaker 8: Ukraine would join on the same day.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: You know what, we go into a bar or restaurant
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: during your time there, the average person on the street,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: how do they their lives in terms of you know, yeah,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, what's the feel, what's the vibe? Are we
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: gonna fight to the end, We're not gonna give up anything,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: or we're getting tired or.
• 24:09
  Speaker 8: Hey, pull that pumped They are really pumped up. I
• 24:11
  Speaker 8: had a few drinkies with some Ukrainians that have been
• 24:13
  Speaker 8: at the front. It's it's taking its toll. Any war does.
• 24:16
  Speaker 8: But these people are pumped up and they want to
• 24:19
  Speaker 8: kick the Russians out.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: In terms of what really happens, though, what I think
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: is interesting that we've seen a new global paradigm, paradigm
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: shake out of this. Right, So it seems like you're
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: getting Russia, China and to some extent India, and the
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: US is lonelier and lonelier, right. I mean, I guess
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: we're still in NATO and it's a little bit better
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: than it was when Trump was president, but who knows.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: You know, if President Biden stays in and or if
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump stays out, you've got a totally new system
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: here in terms of the power. The panel agree with that, Well,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: you think that China still dig into democracy in Western.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: China is what it is, Russia is what it is.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: India still buys their stuff, China's buying any Saudi Arabian
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: oil for the.
• 25:13
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, I mean I would agree with Matt
• 25:16
  Speaker 8: not just because he's so much physically stronger than me,
• 25:18
  Speaker 8: just because I feel like that's the right take gotten things. Yeah,
• 25:22
  Speaker 8: this is this is a new paradigm. But you know
• 25:24
  Speaker 8: that the real fail I think was after the Second
• 25:25
  Speaker 8: World War, we were like, hey, everybody, like markets work
• 25:29
  Speaker 8: and just get involved in capitalism and it will make
• 25:31
  Speaker 8: you rich. But like democracy is an option, and that's
• 25:34
  Speaker 8: that's a bit of a fail, right. The US conquered Germany, Japan,
• 25:37
  Speaker 8: and the UK, but it was like the two like
• 25:40
  Speaker 8: I've said this before, like the two big naughty countries,
• 25:42
  Speaker 8: China and Russia. It was like, do whatever you want, right,
• 25:45
  Speaker 8: So I think that's that's the challenge facing.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Were you attend were you attempting at Brooklyn Accent?
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: I was trying what you want?
• 25:52
  Speaker 8: Do whatever you want?
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: So I guess in Ukraine where you were, I mean
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: what I guess the real question is for these people
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: is you know, it sounds like they are not going
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: to give up, that that's not in their discussion at
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: the moment, and that never So then that kind of
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: comes back to to the West and NATO and okay,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: well how much are we going to how long are
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: we going to support them? And to what end?
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: So that's I guess where we're getting to it.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: And by the way, Emmanuel Macron had this thing about
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: trying to get China to help negotiate people.
• 26:26
  Speaker 8: Right, I don't know what that was about.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: What where has this guy?
• 26:28
  Speaker 8: I don't know what that was about. Yeah, Macron also
• 26:30
  Speaker 8: did the whole big long table thing with Putin if
• 26:32
  Speaker 8: you remember, right, and that was a bit that was
• 26:34
  Speaker 8: a bit of a wash out. Yeah. I can't get
• 26:37
  Speaker 8: inside his head. I don't know what he's doing. I
• 26:38
  Speaker 8: think maybe it's some sort of French diplomatic urge, you know,
• 26:42
  Speaker 8: to possible moonshot. Yeah, I don't know. But but the
• 26:47
  Speaker 8: going back to the Ukrainians, they are they are dead
• 26:49
  Speaker 8: serious about this. I'm in the maximalist camp. I think
• 26:52
  Speaker 8: we give them everything they want, and that's that's one
• 26:54
  Speaker 8: way of ending this thing quickly.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: It's starting a new thing.
• 26:58
  Speaker 8: Well, but but I mean, like, I mean, dude, like,
• 26:59
  Speaker 8: is Putin really going to push the button? I mean
• 27:02
  Speaker 8: it's like Trump, right, We've got a bigger button. Like
• 27:04
  Speaker 8: I just I think it's bluster. I don't think he's
• 27:05
  Speaker 8: going to make it ask.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: It seems to be on the table as fighter jets right.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: To me, that's the game changer. And it doesn't appear
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: that the US or any of our Western allies are
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: there yet. I just hope that we're training pilots today
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: in anticipation of twelve months from now. If it's you need,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: you know, get an air arm that we've got. This
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: guy's trained and we can just drop him and he's.
• 27:24
  Speaker 8: I imagine we're doing all sorts of things that give
• 27:26
  Speaker 8: us options. Again on the aircraft. I mean, I don't
• 27:30
  Speaker 8: know why we haven't given them like two or three
• 27:32
  Speaker 8: to kind of make a point, right, That's what we
• 27:34
  Speaker 8: did with the tanks, And so there's a difference between
• 27:36
  Speaker 8: the sort of material that would definitely make a dent
• 27:39
  Speaker 8: and the sort of material at a certain level that
• 27:41
  Speaker 8: will show that we're still in it. Right. But look,
• 27:43
  Speaker 8: I can see to both of you this thing is escalating.
• 27:46
  Speaker 8: It's like it looks like a stalemate equilibrium. But that's
• 27:48
  Speaker 8: because both sides are slowly edging up to a line.
• 27:51
  Speaker 8: And I wouldn't I wouldn't. It's very lowly likelihood, but
• 27:54
  Speaker 8: I wouldn't rule out putin using some sort of tactical
• 27:57
  Speaker 8: new because a pr scare tactic, right, like a mushroom
• 27:59
  Speaker 8: cloud on tap. I don't know, But look, the Ukrainy
• 28:03
  Speaker 8: is a dead series, all.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Right, ed Price, thanks for coming in, Thanks for making
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: it back. Safely at Price principal at Ergo. He just
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: spent some time in Ukraine, so we appreciate him coming
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: to our Bloomberg and Arcti Broker studio and sharing some
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: of the insight. There.
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: You're listening to the team Ken's are Live program Bloomberg
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg dot com,
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen
• 28:27
  Speaker 5: on demand wherever you get your podcasts.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Let's move over to the biotech space. This is a
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: space that is fascinating for investors because boy, you can
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: have some big, big hits and some big big misses
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: as well, and that's why I think a lot of
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: the hedge funds like doing work in the biotech space
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: and we always love speaking to folks in that space.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Lynn Kirkpatrick, she's the CEO of n Sis Biosciences. That's
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: a NASDAQ traded stock. N Yeah, I'm sorry, e N
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: is a Nancy sc is the ticker Linn. Thanks so
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: much for joining us here that I pronounced your bandies
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: name correctly and sise you certainly did, Okay for having
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: great tell us what you guys are doing over there
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: at insis what's your focus.
• 29:11
  Speaker 9: We are a clinical stage company trying to improve really
• 29:15
  Speaker 9: prescription drug safety. We're using our technology platforms to improve
• 29:21
  Speaker 9: the safety in the okoid space. We have technology to
• 29:25
  Speaker 9: reduce abuse and I believe unique to the industry. We
• 29:29
  Speaker 9: also have overdose protection.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: So hang on, if I understand correctly, that means you're
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: trying to make an opioid that is less addictive and
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: less deadly.
• 29:43
  Speaker 9: I wouldn't say less addictive. Opioids are addictive, but as
• 29:47
  Speaker 9: you know, they've become liked by recreational drug users our products.
• 29:54
  Speaker 9: What we're trying to do is reduce that recreational abuse,
• 29:58
  Speaker 9: but also have something that's safe for prescribers and individuals
• 30:02
  Speaker 9: with pain and layered on top of reduction of individuals
• 30:10
  Speaker 9: being able to manipulate and abuse our products, we also
• 30:14
  Speaker 9: have overdose protection, so I think, for the first time
• 30:17
  Speaker 9: ever a prescription opioid where if you take more of it,
• 30:23
  Speaker 9: your body turns it off and doesn't allow an overdose.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: So what's ther do you have competitors in this space?
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Because this opioid issue and crisis, I guess is the
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: correct term in this country does not seem to be abating.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: So do you have some competitors in the marketplace, and
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: if so, how does your science potentially differ from what's
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: out there in the marketplace.
• 30:49
  Speaker 9: Yeah, obviously, I mean I think the entire pain industry
• 30:53
  Speaker 9: has been looking for solutions for this crisis. Most companies
• 30:58
  Speaker 9: had used what we call formulations, trying to release the
• 31:03
  Speaker 9: drug slowly over time. What Insis has done is use chemistry.
• 31:08
  Speaker 9: We've chemically modified the opioid so until it's swallowed and
• 31:13
  Speaker 9: it's exposed to an enzyme that your body uses to
• 31:17
  Speaker 9: digest your meat products, it doesn't release the opioid, and
• 31:21
  Speaker 9: it's very hard to manipulate to make it release faster.
• 31:26
  Speaker 9: At Currently, there are no companies using technologies like ours,
• 31:30
  Speaker 9: so the abuse to turrent formulations haven't worked. We believe
• 31:35
  Speaker 9: our solution gives us something that's safer, and we've recently
• 31:40
  Speaker 9: had clinical trials showing that recreational drug users don't really
• 31:44
  Speaker 9: like our product and that it actually releases an opioid
• 31:48
  Speaker 9: to affect pain as it should, so we feel it'll
• 31:56
  Speaker 9: be effective, have less abuse, and have this safety of
• 32:00
  Speaker 9: potentially reducing overdose.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: How far are you from getting this product out to patients?
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, what kind of trials do you need to
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: still need to go through.
• 32:14
  Speaker 9: Yes, we have had a very busy year. We conducted
• 32:20
  Speaker 9: four clinical trials last year. We're now poised and planning
• 32:26
  Speaker 9: to speak to the agency to start our Phase three
• 32:29
  Speaker 9: trials at the end of this year, and we hope
• 32:32
  Speaker 9: to be able to submit our NDA in twenty twenty five,
• 32:37
  Speaker 9: so it's still a couple of years away, but very
• 32:39
  Speaker 9: close to the end.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Your stock has been all over the place. I know
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: you did an IPO I guess back in twenty one
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: at fifteen dollars a share. Then it seems to have
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: gone all over the place. I'm looking at the stock chart.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it's correct, but it had you
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: kind of way up there. Now down to three dollars
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: a share. What's what's going on with your stock and
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: what's the market calling?
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: How?
• 32:58
  Speaker 9: I wish I could answer. We've had very good results
• 33:01
  Speaker 9: and in some days we've traded a massive amount of shares.
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: We seem to be.
• 33:11
  Speaker 9: A hit with the retail crowd, so it does go
• 33:16
  Speaker 9: up and down. Even last week it was almost six dollars.
• 33:20
  Speaker 9: We're now down to about three and a half. And
• 33:23
  Speaker 9: I believe with the hope that we have. We do
• 33:28
  Speaker 9: hope that our shareholders will stay with us and allow
• 33:32
  Speaker 9: us to move things forward. But yes, our stock has
• 33:37
  Speaker 9: had a wild ride over the last year.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: It actually makes the market cap just about four and
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: a half million. And I wonder why you don't just
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: you know, get around by the company. I mean, why
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: not take it private at that point.
• 33:54
  Speaker 9: We're looking at various opportunities. Obviously this last week where
• 34:00
  Speaker 9: we were close to six dollars, we had hoped we'd
• 34:04
  Speaker 9: start maintaining a little more upward pressure. We're looking at
• 34:07
  Speaker 9: all opportunities at the moment.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: So talk to us about just kind of the biotech
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: space in general. Is it kind of thing post COVID,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: you know, so amazing how quickly the mRNA vaccines got
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: to market, and you know, and the FDA kind of
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: really sped things up. Is the FDA and approval process
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: different today than it was three or four years ago.
• 34:28
  Speaker 9: Well, I think during COVID they did utilize emergency use.
• 34:33
  Speaker 9: There was a lot of money put in to the
• 34:36
  Speaker 9: market to get the vaccines. But what that did was
• 34:40
  Speaker 9: also make it more difficult for regular biotech companies to
• 34:46
  Speaker 9: the supply chain of animals and bials and everything else
• 34:49
  Speaker 9: that were used up in the vaccines. We do have
• 34:52
  Speaker 9: fast tracked status with our technology, so we potentially have
• 34:57
  Speaker 9: the ability to move a little faster, all though we
• 35:03
  Speaker 9: believe it may not be as fast as it was
• 35:07
  Speaker 9: with vaccines.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Gotcha, Okay, Lynn, thank you so much for joining us,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: for taking the time. Lynn Kirkpatrick, CEO of NCISE Biosciences,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: The tech tickers E NSC.
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: You're listening to the tape cans are live program Bloomberg
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the
• 35:25
  Speaker 5: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App.
• 35:28
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• 35:31
  Speaker 5: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. Now.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty excited about this next guest.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: I have been following this company since it had a
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: different name and made big inch twins. Now, Curtis Motorcycles
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: makes electric bikes that are more like works of art
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: than they are modes of transportation. I mean they are
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: at Google It Google Google, Curtis. I'm looking at to
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: s this motorcycle and you'll see something pretty insane. Matt
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Chambers joins us, the founder of the business and the CEO,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Matt Thanks so much for your time talk to us
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: about where Curtis is in its journey right now. Because
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: you make a product that is it's fair to say,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: too expensive for most consumers, and as a result, I
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: don't see that many on the road, but when I do,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: I'm very excited, and I guess you have probably a
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: huge group of fanboys like me.
• 36:32
  Speaker 7: Well, we're very close to delivering the first of the
• 36:37
  Speaker 7: Curtis One product that will come out later this year,
• 36:41
  Speaker 7: so we've taken us about six years to get to
• 36:44
  Speaker 7: where we are. We wanted to make the best possible
• 36:48
  Speaker 7: electric motorcycle that could be made, and we had this
• 36:51
  Speaker 7: dream really from the beginning of creating a motorcycle from
• 36:56
  Speaker 7: the inside out. We were just awarded a patent on
• 36:59
  Speaker 7: this idea, which is you tap the drive shaft through
• 37:03
  Speaker 7: the center of this F one inspired axial Flox motor.
• 37:10
  Speaker 7: It's an eleven thousand dollars electric motors, the best electric
• 37:14
  Speaker 7: motor in the world, and you tap that axle and
• 37:18
  Speaker 7: then you line up the motorcycle on the center line
• 37:20
  Speaker 7: of the motor and the axle, so it's the first
• 37:24
  Speaker 7: motorcycle ever made where symmetry is actually framed, so the
• 37:29
  Speaker 7: balance of the two wheel device is a little bit better,
• 37:32
  Speaker 7: you know, if you think about it, all the early
• 37:35
  Speaker 7: motorcycle makers were bicycle makers first, so motorcycle has really
• 37:40
  Speaker 7: always been taking a bicycle and then figuring out how
• 37:43
  Speaker 7: to motorize it. This would be the first time where
• 37:47
  Speaker 7: you start really by tapping the axle, so it's more
• 37:49
  Speaker 7: of an organic approach, and we think it's really led
• 37:52
  Speaker 7: to a more beautiful outcome. The bike certainly rides beautifully,
• 37:56
  Speaker 7: the control is amazing, it's very easy to use. We
• 37:59
  Speaker 7: think there's a new audience out there for two wheeled
• 38:02
  Speaker 7: luxury motoring, we'd like to say, because it's it's just
• 38:06
  Speaker 7: so sublime and it's like gliding over the ttarmac when
• 38:09
  Speaker 7: you ride it.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: So I talked to I'll never forget talking to Kevin
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Cameron at the Moto GP in Indianapolis about ten years ago,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: and he thought, you know, motorcycles are not the place
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: where electricity is going to be the powertrain. But now
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: you've got a lot of competitors in Harley Davidson, they've
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: got the live wire. I've ridden in a Nergica bike
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: that I thought was a pretty and zero with, both
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: of which I thought were pretty cool experiences.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: This is though a different level.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: As you say, it's a complete re engineering of the
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: bike to make it an electric vehicle. What kind of
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: order interest have you got? What kind of you know
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: of a book are you building? In terms of selling
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: these things.
• 38:57
  Speaker 7: We've got, we have thirty two firm sales or the
• 39:00
  Speaker 7: first one thirty. We're only going to make one hundred
• 39:02
  Speaker 7: and thirty of this particular model.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: And they were like grand or ninety grand to start.
• 39:07
  Speaker 7: One hundred and twenty thousand, So it starts at one
• 39:09
  Speaker 7: twenty and goes up from there. But the situation is
• 39:13
  Speaker 7: much better than that because we have twenty five hundred
• 39:16
  Speaker 7: qualified expressions of interest. So I believe it's going to
• 39:19
  Speaker 7: come down more to who we really target. We hope
• 39:24
  Speaker 7: to get just the right customers. Now. Now we have
• 39:28
  Speaker 7: approximately thirteen hundred folks that have bought our bikes in
• 39:32
  Speaker 7: the past. The average about one hundred thousand of bikes,
• 39:35
  Speaker 7: so we have a pretty good deck of people that
• 39:38
  Speaker 7: have done business with us, and they're all satisfied with
• 39:40
  Speaker 7: what they what we made for them.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: Were those Confederate Bikes that was the original.
• 39:46
  Speaker 7: Those bikes. We built about thirteen hundred of those and
• 39:49
  Speaker 7: they average about one hundred thousand. So there's quite a
• 39:54
  Speaker 7: few billionaire customers. And I think the richest man in
• 39:58
  Speaker 7: the world had one. I believe he was unfortunately to cease.
• 40:02
  Speaker 7: Now we have a lot of we do. We do
• 40:05
  Speaker 7: have some some uh extremely accomplished. Uh.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: That's kind of where I wanted to go, Matt. I mean,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: I know nothing about the motorcycle business, unlike Matt, who
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: is an expert. But just give me a sense of
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: how you position Curtis Curtis Motorcycles in the marketplace. Who's
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: your typical buyer and how has that evolved.
• 40:25
  Speaker 7: Well, we're taking in a different approach. We we're making.
• 40:29
  Speaker 7: This is a one to eighty degree difference. I had
• 40:32
  Speaker 7: this I had this this thing about wanting to be
• 40:35
  Speaker 7: like a MG to Harley, So I wanted to make
• 40:37
  Speaker 7: a very bombastic bike before with the big V twins.
• 40:41
  Speaker 7: Now I'm in a whole different mindsets, as is the
• 40:44
  Speaker 7: Curtis team, and so we're going more like you would
• 40:48
  Speaker 7: think of motoring pre World War Two, like the gentle
• 40:52
  Speaker 7: cruise with all that torque so the bike is really tuned.
• 40:57
  Speaker 7: The bike is capable of enormous amount ounce of tor
• 41:01
  Speaker 7: probably as much or more than any machine ever made
• 41:06
  Speaker 7: for the road. But it's but the tuning of the
• 41:10
  Speaker 7: motorcycle is very very easy, is for very easy use.
• 41:15
  Speaker 7: You could you could let your young daughter or your
• 41:17
  Speaker 7: wife ride it. It's so easy to ride. And and
• 41:21
  Speaker 7: that's that's what we're really going for. So we we
• 41:23
  Speaker 7: believe that we can open up this, this idea of
• 41:28
  Speaker 7: motoring on two wheels to a much broader audience just
• 41:31
  Speaker 7: because frankly, it's it's it's very confidence inspiring. All the
• 41:35
  Speaker 7: tuning is made to give you great confidence when you're
• 41:38
  Speaker 7: in the saddle and uh, and it's it's it's very
• 41:45
  Speaker 7: very sublime. The overall experience, no noise, you can get
• 41:49
  Speaker 7: more involved with the elements. Uh, it's it's really a much.
• 41:53
  Speaker 7: I disagree with Kevin. I think that the I think
• 41:57
  Speaker 7: a lot more people will come to this, that it
• 42:00
  Speaker 7: may be a different type of rider. I'm not sure
• 42:03
  Speaker 7: that all of the icy fan base will want this,
• 42:06
  Speaker 7: but I think there's a broader audience of people that will.
• 42:11
  Speaker 7: In relative to other electric motorcycle companies, some of those
• 42:15
  Speaker 7: bikes are tuned for more aggression. We could make race
• 42:18
  Speaker 7: bikes that would be very, very fast, but that's not
• 42:22
  Speaker 7: really what the Curtis rotting experience is about. It's really
• 42:26
  Speaker 7: about ease control.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: I actually had a conversation with Galutsy about this, and
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: that's kind of like what he was trying to do.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Miguel on heel Galuzzi, who designed.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: The I'm speaking for our entire audience TOI, he designed
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: the Ducatti Monster.
• 42:41
  Speaker 7: And now Miguel very well, yes.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Can you tell us anything about the people who ordered
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: your bikes? I know Brad Pitt has a confederate. I
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: think Tom Cruise has one. I think I've seen one
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: in Jay Leno's garage. Are you allowed to give us
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: that kind of information on the h on the Curtis.
• 43:02
  Speaker 7: What I will tell you is is that the is
• 43:05
  Speaker 7: it the people that the people that have ordered our
• 43:09
  Speaker 7: bikes in the past and the people that are ordering
• 43:11
  Speaker 7: the Curtis are the coolest people. I mean, I know
• 43:15
  Speaker 7: this sounds like what you would expect to hear, but
• 43:17
  Speaker 7: I swear is the truth. They're the sweetest, most wonderful people.
• 43:22
  Speaker 7: One of the greatest thing about my career has been
• 43:24
  Speaker 7: that in the motorcycle business is the type of people
• 43:27
  Speaker 7: who migrated toward wanting the things that we make that
• 43:32
  Speaker 7: you know, they're just wonderful folks.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: You're based down in Alabama, is that right, Mett?
• 43:37
  Speaker 7: Well, we have a small shop right outside of Birmingham,
• 43:40
  Speaker 7: Alabama and Leeds, and we have a studio in New Orleans.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: What's it like.
• 43:44
  Speaker 7: We're going to build the first the first one thirty
• 43:46
  Speaker 7: here and then we're gonna then We're not sure exactly
• 43:49
  Speaker 7: where the next shop will be, but we're following this
• 43:52
  Speaker 7: Tesla model of business. So we'll start really small, thirty
• 43:55
  Speaker 7: forty and then sixty bikes a year, and then in
• 43:59
  Speaker 7: the four or year of production, we're looking to build
• 44:02
  Speaker 7: maybe as many a seven or eight hundred at a
• 44:04
  Speaker 7: lower price point, which will come in about sixty and
• 44:07
  Speaker 7: then we'll have a thirty thousand dollars product and then
• 44:09
  Speaker 7: a fifteen thousand dollars product. So our business model is
• 44:13
  Speaker 7: very similar to what mister Musk created, which is a
• 44:16
  Speaker 7: smart way to do it. So you start at the
• 44:17
  Speaker 7: very tippy top of the market and you slowly work
• 44:20
  Speaker 7: your way down.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: I've recently talked to your wife on the phone about
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: your shareholding, your structure. You have OTC shares. CMOT is
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: the ticker. How are you going to raise funds or
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: do you need to raise funds any further?
• 44:37
  Speaker 7: We're raising money now, so a there's an ability to
• 44:40
  Speaker 7: buy shares direct on our website as of this point
• 44:45
  Speaker 7: in time. So we like the idea of the kind
• 44:52
  Speaker 7: of democratization of the direct to investor approach. So we're
• 44:57
  Speaker 7: using that. We feel that it's a really good feel
• 45:00
  Speaker 7: very strongly that we have a tremendous opportunity long term.
• 45:06
  Speaker 7: I think we have the right approach. I think that
• 45:08
  Speaker 7: we're the only company that's really starting at the very
• 45:10
  Speaker 7: top right and then working down and we have we
• 45:15
  Speaker 7: have a pedigree from making bikes that are desired by
• 45:18
  Speaker 7: this category of owner exs.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: All right, Matt, thanks so much for joining us. Matt Chambers,
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: CEO and chairman of the board of Curtis Motorcycle. Thanks
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: platform you prefer.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller nineteen
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: seventy three.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: And I'm Paul Sweeney. I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Before the podcast, you can always catch us worldwide at
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio