Latest / UK Column Radio / Solutions to Corporatist Fascism and False Political Constructs — with Rodney Atkinson | UK Column Interviews

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Solutions to Corporatist Fascism and False Political Constructs — with Rodney Atkinson | UK Column Interviews · UK Column Radio

• 0:08
  Hello everyone. This is Diane Rasmussen with UK
• 0:10
  column. I'm really happy to be here
• 0:12
  today with Rodney Atkinson, who's the founder of the Free
• 0:15
  Nation's website and several books and several articles.
• 0:19
  And I'm really looking forward to a very interesting
• 0:22
  conversation with him today about the current state of
• 0:25
  affairs both domestically and internationally.
• 0:28
  And I expect that we'll be covering a range of issues
• 0:31
  today. So really looking forward to
• 0:33
  this. So, Rodney, welcome to UK column
• 0:35
  once again. I know you've been working with
• 0:37
  Brian Mcgarriff for many years. And, and I'm really happy to be
• 0:40
  here today since I'm up here with you in the northeast of
• 0:43
  England to talk with you in person about all these issues.
• 0:47
  Good. You're very welcome.
• 0:48
  I'm pleased to be able to contribute something to the UK
• 0:51
  column. You've done magnificent work
• 0:53
  over the years. Thank you very much.
• 0:56
  Thank you. So I guess, you know, there's so
• 0:58
  many things that we could be discussing.
• 1:00
  I know when I got in touch with you about this interview, the
• 1:04
  kind of the idea of corporate fascism is something that has
• 1:07
  pervaded your work for many years, of course.
• 1:11
  And as I said, especially with respect to domestic policies,
• 1:15
  international wars, the war in Ukraine, the side that our
• 1:19
  country is on currently in that particular situation.
• 1:24
  I guess I'd just like to open it up to you for now to a starting
• 1:27
  point and I'm happy to follow where you would like to go.
• 1:30
  But if you maybe would like to say, you know, where are we
• 1:33
  currently with these issues that you've been working on for
• 1:36
  decades and how did we get here? It's usually the case in
• 1:42
  politics that the sooner you warn about something happening,
• 1:46
  the longer it takes for anything to actually be understood.
• 1:52
  But now that all the dangers of corporatist fascism that I've
• 1:55
  been warning about for 40 to 45 years are becoming increasingly
• 2:00
  obvious to the average voter, then sometimes people don't
• 2:05
  listen to you anymore just at the very time when your
• 2:09
  predictions come true. I mean basically I've been
• 2:12
  warning about corporatism in the United Kingdom and corporatist
• 2:17
  fascism in Europe since 1981, but in particularly over the
• 2:22
  last 30 years when I was campaigning for the UK to leave
• 2:28
  the European Union. The European Union is is the
• 2:31
  sort of classic corporatist, bureaucratic, authoritarian
• 2:38
  centralised system which is inimical to all democracy and
• 2:44
  the nation state which support democracy and loyalty to
• 2:49
  democratic institutions. So it it it all starts with the
• 2:57
  the right moving left and the left moving right in creating
• 3:03
  this corporatist structure which is an unholy alliance between
• 3:10
  the left wing state authoritarian people on the one
• 3:14
  hand and the right wing big corporation status on the other.
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  It is a potent mixture and it is the underlying system of fascist
• 3:26
  and Nazi systems, particularly in Europe.
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  And we see how this has resulted as big corporations, Dr. the
• 3:38
  economic side and socialists and and quasi communists.
• 3:45
  But not not real communists of course, because real communists
• 3:47
  understand what fascism is and they tend to fight it.
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  That's why you have this split on the left of the Labour Party,
• 3:56
  that it is a very dangerous combination.
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  And just as the domestic populations are attacked,
• 4:06
  marginalised and their democratic systems undermined by
• 4:11
  corporatism at home, so that corporatism extends itself
• 4:16
  through big corporations and banks into aggression abroad.
• 4:21
  And in particular the advance of NATO and the European Union
• 4:26
  towards the former Soviet bloc and the Russian border over the
• 4:31
  last 30 years. So you see a direct connection
• 4:35
  between domestic and international affairs, between
• 4:39
  domestic suppression of dissent in so-called democratic
• 4:45
  countries on the one hand, and the expansion of corporate
• 4:51
  internationalism and globalism on the other.
• 4:57
  So when looking at your most recent book, you talked about
• 5:02
  sort of this notion sort of supporting the formation of the
• 5:06
  EU and taking away democracy from the countries that were
• 5:10
  formerly such as sovereign nations in relation to Europe.
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  And and so I thought that was a very interesting thing because
• 5:18
  as you know, as we saw here with the votes for the, you know, the
• 5:24
  the leave remain, sort of that debate that went on with UKIP,
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  obviously that has been going on for several years.
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  And it was very interesting to me.
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  It seemed as though there were a lot of people who just assume
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  that being part of the EU is is automatically a good thing
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  without actually questioning. This is just my own perspective
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  on what the individual countries can do to rule themselves and
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  how those democracies have essentially been stripped now of
• 5:54
  that autonomy. Yes.
• 5:56
  Well, the interesting thing is here once again we see direct
• 5:59
  parallels domestically and internationally.
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  Domestically, we were propagandized into believing
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  that the European Union was just an free association of sovereign
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  democratic nations, whereas in fact it was a completely
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  different corporate state structure above and having power
• 6:20
  over those democratic nations. Similarly, when that system,
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  with the help of NATO, moved eastwards, the countries that
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  had been freed from the Soviet yoke were then for a short time
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  genuinely sovereign, democratic. But it didn't take long for the
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  European Union, with its constitutional armoury, to come
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  in and take them over. And this combination of NATO and
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  the European Union working hand in hand as it moved eastwards is
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  the very thing of course which frightened the Russians and gave
• 7:01
  great succour to the fascists in Ukraine that they could attack
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  and defeat Russians in Ukraine. Which they proceeded to do with
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  thousands of Russians in eastern eastern Ukraine being
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  slaughtered mainly by openly Nazi brigades like Azov, Aida,
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  C-14, the Right Sector. All of whom of have been
• 7:31
  accepted by the TF political class and to a large extension
• 7:37
  rewarded for the so-called patriotism.
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  But as I say it's all starts really domestically in the West
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  with the sacrifice of democracy and the establishment of
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  elitists. I use the word elitist to
• 7:55
  describe people who are self appointed elites.
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  They are what happens when democracy loses its power to
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  represent people and people have no choice in their voting
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  because as the right moves left and the left moves right, you
• 8:14
  get an amorphous mass of political parties all
• 8:16
  representing roughly the same thing.
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  So although we have frequent elections, and the more
• 8:21
  elections they put out, the more feeble they are, because you
• 8:25
  have an election but you don't have a choice.
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  That's true. That is true.
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  And you know, we call that the UNI party, if you could call
• 8:33
  them. That's right, that's right.
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  Exactly. The UNI party has become the
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  word quite rightly to use to describe it all and isn't
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  extremely dangerous because the the people use the power of
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  their vote at elections and through corporate power backed
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  by the state, their Lulu's, their money vote in the
• 8:56
  marketplace as well. Because they no longer can
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  choose powerfully what to do and what not to do with their money,
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  what to buy, what not to buy. Because the corporate powers who
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  run the markets, so-called markets, don't give them the
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  choice anymore. So we get a parallel but system
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  of alienation in the Democrat, in the political world and in
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  the economic world. Right.
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  Right. And so if we trace this back
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  into where this all started, and it seems like you've said in
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  your, in a lot of your writing, this goes back into the 1930s
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  and 1940s from sort of that sort of fascist backgrounds.
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  And I'd like to trace that back a little bit because it's, I
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  think it's important for people to see where this came from and,
• 9:47
  and how that's led to where we are now.
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  So if you can go into that history a little bit as well to
• 9:52
  see how we got here. Well, it's interesting if you
• 9:54
  look at the foundation of the European Union itself.
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  Many of those people who founded the European Union and who took
• 10:02
  powerful positions in it based their plans almost exactly on
• 10:09
  the Nazis 1943 plans for what was called under Hitler the
• 10:16
  economic, the European Economic Community, the oil pesheved
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  shafts, combined shaft and almost point for point, as we
• 10:25
  pointed out in our book Treason at Maastricht in 1994, the
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  structures were the same. So naturally with the similar
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  structures and similar people deciding how the EU should be
• 10:40
  founded and developed. Of course, originally it was
• 10:43
  just the Economic Community, but from the very beginning the
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  structure was so clear as to to suggest, well, more than
• 10:53
  suggest, to actually put in place a whole new corporate
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  country structure. A country called Europe, a state
• 11:03
  called Europe, a superstate called Europe.
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  And the ground for claiming that there's a strong fascist and
• 11:12
  Nazi element in the European Union.
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  To look at the actual individuals involved when it was
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  founded, both in the nation states who founded it and in the
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  EU itself. People like Walter Halstein,
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  Joseph Globke, Walter Funk von Falkenstein, who was the head of
• 11:32
  the European Department under Hitler's Foreign Office, and he
• 11:36
  had the same position under Adenauer's foreign officer after
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  the war as well. People like Theodore Hoyce, who
• 11:43
  became president of Germany, all they all had rather as a quite
• 11:52
  clear and objectionable Nazi roots.
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  In the case of Halstein, he was an academic close to the Nazi
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  party. He was involved in negotiating
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  the fascist post war settlement with Italy, which of course
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  never came to fruition, but it did for Hausstein because he
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  became the 1st President of the European Union.
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  I did a a couple of videos on the Free Nations website, one
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  called The Nazis and Fascists who Founded the European Union,
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  which was based on a speech I gave at the House of Commons in
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  one of the committee rooms in in 2008.
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  Then a subsequent video called Brexit or Die where I went into
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  much more detail. And I think if anyone who looks
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  at those videos and notes that the exact histories of what was
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  said in the 1930s and 40s and what was said in the 1980s and
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  90s in Europe or have remarkable similarities as you would expect
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  from people who were of a, of a corporatist fascist disposition
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  and had all that historical Nazi pedigree.
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  I mean, it's very difficult to get the rather ignorant British
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  press and British journalists and British politicians to even
• 13:36
  sit down and look at the evidence.
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  And the more horrific the evidence is, the less they want
• 13:42
  to sit down and watch it. Well, of course, the BBC working
• 13:46
  directly with the governments, working directly with all of
• 13:49
  them, they they do have their, their, their place.
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  I mean, we've all seen the recent activities of the BBC.
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  It is a classic corporatist organization.
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  State sponsored a particular political view, a private view
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  promoted at state expense and the expense of the people.
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  But they did the same thing in the 1930s when they kept
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  Churchill. Churchill who was one warning of
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  the rise of Hitler and Nazism and the BBC kept him off the air
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  for 2 1/2 years in the run up to the Second World War.
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  So they have a pedigree. We all know what they're about
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  and it is extremely dangerous and nothing and the great
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  betrayals of the British political classes to allow the
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  continuation of the BBC at our expense.
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  So there. Because there is the classic
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  case of having in theory a choice, but in fact practically
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  no choice at all. That's true.
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  That's true. And and you know, we see now in
• 15:01
  in the current day with UK column, we've been in existence
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  for 20 years this year, but we're constantly fighting the
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  censors and especially now in line with the YouTube and social
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  media channels constantly trying to silence us and take and it's
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  true of any independent media and this day and age where we're
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  fighting the regime with through the electronic means that they
• 15:22
  are using. Yes, these state corporatist
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  oligarchies, they are of course are both left and right, just
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  like fascism is. They are present also in the
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  structure of business, that it's corporatists who are making the
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  decisions in the Pharmaceutical industry, in the media industry,
• 15:44
  in politics in general, in environmental issues.
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  You see, great big centralized corporate systems effectively
• 15:53
  running governments are almost on their own.
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  It's not just the government of the Western countries which is
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  oppressing their people. It's these combinations of
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  corporate corporations who are beginning to enter, who have
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  long ago entered the political sphere.
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  Just like of course, socialism has always entered the
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  democratics, the democratic market sphere in order to take
• 16:22
  power. And in particular, we see how
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  the American corporations under Biden and to a certain extent
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  even under Trump, who is supposed to represent the
• 16:35
  opposite, that they exercise political power, are extremely
• 16:39
  dangerous. We saw that of course, under the
• 16:42
  Nazis, where big corporations like Krupp and Tusen, and in
• 16:47
  particular IG Farben. IG Farben used to spy all over
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  the world for the Nazi government and this combination
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  is is toxic and democracies can't withstand it unless their
• 17:06
  people rise up. They are.
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  At least with the Internet people have an opportunity to
• 17:12
  rise up and see alternatives, but it's a very dangerous
• 17:17
  situation. And I would say, you know,
• 17:20
  watching what's happened in America and here as well, just
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  for the past 5-6 years since the 2020 tyranny, as I'll call it.
• 17:29
  If we look at Trump leading what was essentially a military
• 17:33
  operation with Operation Warp Speed, pushing in the vaccines,
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  working with AstraZeneca, working with Johnson and Johnson
• 17:40
  working with Pfizer. That's right.
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  And and although that's, you know, that's I think is a good
• 17:45
  example in the modern day. It is indeed, and of course,
• 17:48
  Trump is trying to roll back on that now.
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  But I mean, it just shows you how much the Trumpians in
• 17:55
  America and the Reform Party followers in Britain have got to
• 17:59
  learn about the real reason for the crisis.
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  Unless they really understand the nature of corporatist,
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  corporatist leftism, socialist totalitarian corporatism, in
• 18:12
  other words, fascism. Unless they really understand
• 18:15
  how it is developed and what it is, then they'll end up doing
• 18:19
  the same things. Right.
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  They will end up compromising with these very corporate
• 18:25
  structures. Who are their enemies?
• 18:27
  Right. And it's very interesting to see
• 18:29
  how they're all coordinated and behind and how the system works
• 18:33
  behind the scenes, but to the point to where the public
• 18:36
  doesn't necessarily see it that way because the media is so good
• 18:39
  at pushing the messages that the governments and the corporations
• 18:42
  want to put out. That's right.
• 18:44
  And one of the, I mean ways in which the system, if you like,
• 18:51
  that we're trying to describe works is, is, is redefining
• 18:56
  words or rather not questioning old concepts which are no longer
• 19:03
  relevant. For instance, when the
• 19:05
  government says public expenditure, it's not public
• 19:11
  expenditure, it's state expenditure.
• 19:13
  That's true. State decides how much.
• 19:17
  The state raises the money through power.
• 19:22
  The state decides whether it's been successful or not.
• 19:26
  The public have nothing to do with it at all.
• 19:29
  The only place where the public have their expenditure, where
• 19:32
  they have power, is in the private sector where they can
• 19:37
  decide to spend or not spend, to save or not save, to invest or
• 19:41
  not invest. And that has direct effect on
• 19:45
  the corporations and even on the governments often as well, where
• 19:50
  people can actually atomistically decide and do
• 19:53
  things which have an effect in the state sector, which the
• 19:58
  government calls the public sector, State sector, they have
• 20:03
  no power at all. One, one thing that's, you know,
• 20:07
  been of interest of me recently when I've watched the sort of
• 20:10
  the net zero agenda coming out through the globalist
• 20:14
  organizations. And I'd, I'd like your opinion
• 20:16
  on this as a, as a political economist yourself, because I
• 20:19
  find it so interesting how they've taken money, if you want
• 20:23
  to call it public money, which we know it's not taking our
• 20:26
  money and, and sort of channelling it through to fund
• 20:29
  these so-called debt zero projects usually to nations
• 20:32
  outside of ours. And what you know, when I look
• 20:36
  at it, a local level in County Durham, where I live, they
• 20:40
  recently ended the net 0 funding that with the majority reform
• 20:44
  Council and saying, well, we this is not a good use for
• 20:47
  money. This is a scam.
• 20:48
  We have other priorities, which I thought was an interesting
• 20:52
  example of when they try to do things well locally, that
• 20:56
  they're trying to do the best for their people.
• 20:58
  But then we have Farage at the top because we've got, what, 2/3
• 21:01
  of majority Reform counselors in County Durham at the moment?
• 21:06
  But then we've got the Farage at the top, who, you know, I'm sure
• 21:09
  you have plenty to say about Farage and what he's going to
• 21:12
  do. But it's unfortunate because I
• 21:13
  feel like I have local counselors in my own ward who
• 21:16
  are trying to do the best for us, and I can't fault them.
• 21:19
  And I've had this discussion with Brian Garris as well.
• 21:22
  Yeah. I mean, there are limited levers
• 21:24
  for local councillors, there's no doubt about it.
• 21:27
  It's very difficult to fight a total ideological war against
• 21:32
  fascism. From a local council point of
• 21:34
  view, the few decisions they can take as on, for instance,
• 21:40
  spending on net zero, are relatively small.
• 21:45
  But they're instructive. They do educate people, they
• 21:48
  show that there is an alternative and you can ask the
• 21:52
  questions like for instance, why is it after when we had two
• 21:56
  years of virtual industrial lockdown the world over, carbon
• 22:01
  did not diminish the atmosphere. That's right.
• 22:06
  And, and of course they started off this years ago talking about
• 22:11
  man made global warming and then they couldn't really prove that,
• 22:16
  so they changed it to climate change.
• 22:18
  You can always tell when people are on the defensive because
• 22:21
  they changed the words to describe what they're talking
• 22:25
  about. But there's no doubt about it
• 22:29
  that that that long before the recent crisis, which I would
• 22:33
  date to Britain's joining the European Union.
• 22:40
  When was it, 1972? The process of the power of the
• 22:47
  state increasing and therefore the diminished role of
• 22:51
  individuals and small companies, family businesses, local
• 22:56
  communities, all the democratic systems to which on which the
• 23:01
  whole so-called democratic nation is based.
• 23:06
  We're all being undermined by high taxation, not just under
• 23:12
  socialist governments, but under so-called Conservative
• 23:15
  governments as well. I mean, the trouble is with the
• 23:18
  British Conservative Party, it has a strong authoritarian
• 23:21
  streak. It that's why Churchill was a
• 23:30
  conservative and the event he then left the Conservative to
• 23:34
  join the Liberals whom he saw as having because he opposed the
• 23:40
  Corn Laws. And then he left the Liberals
• 23:45
  and joined the Conservatives again because he presumably
• 23:48
  thought they were learning their lesson.
• 23:50
  Well, people have been doing that, leaving and joining,
• 23:53
  leaving and joining the Conservative Party for decades.
• 23:56
  It's very difficult to see whether they've ever learnt
• 23:58
  their lesson or not, even today. Well, and it's interesting, just
• 24:02
  in the past couple of weeks we've seen people trying to
• 24:04
  leave or leaving the Conservatives to join reform.
• 24:08
  But then when we look at these individuals like Zahawi, for
• 24:10
  example, where he's just as in line with the, the, the overall
• 24:14
  larger agenda as much as possible, where he's trying to
• 24:17
  appear as this, you know, rebel trying to do what's best.
• 24:21
  But actually, when you look at it, he's not at all.
• 24:23
  No, I mean no radical party, which really is going to make a
• 24:27
  difference, would have Zahawi in it.
• 24:29
  No, no. And I noticed another recent
• 24:35
  defector from the Tories to Reform was someone who was
• 24:41
  fanatically making the case for the Chagos Island deal when he
• 24:46
  was with the Conservative Party. Then suddenly he's turned to be
• 24:51
  saying what a terrible deal it was.
• 24:53
  Well you know, the trouble is with that.
• 24:54
  On the one hand you say good, well they've learnt their
• 24:56
  lesson. On the other hand, how was it
• 24:59
  that they needed to learn that lesson in the 1st place?
• 25:02
  You think these people are rather unstable, but on the
• 25:07
  other hand, having met three party leaders over the years, I
• 25:12
  I think it's one of the characteristics is that when
• 25:15
  they people get to the top of politics, they are almost by
• 25:18
  definition unstable people. Maybe because they have to chop
• 25:22
  and change so much to oil their way up the the ladder of power.
• 25:28
  Could you talk a little bit about your experiences of of
• 25:30
  meeting them? That would be very interesting.
• 25:34
  Well, I met Mrs. Thatcher a few times.
• 25:38
  My first policy paper in 1981 was called Institutional
• 25:43
  Distortions in the Economy, The Contribution of Monetarism.
• 25:49
  And I heard that when she read it, she said, I'm not sure he's
• 25:53
  a Conservative. And then many years later I met
• 26:00
  her again. Actually funnily enough, when
• 26:03
  she was young her first job was with a chemical company called
• 26:09
  British Cylonite in Manningtree and her first day she reported
• 26:15
  to my uncle who was working there as a scientist.
• 26:19
  She was only about a year older than her and in those days
• 26:24
  apparently Mrs. Thatcher was very keen on the local in house
• 26:28
  trade union, which she was the leader of and she didn't like
• 26:34
  people going straight to complain to the management
• 26:37
  without going through her. So it's an interesting
• 26:41
  background. And then many years later,
• 26:46
  obviously I met her at the cocktail party I introduced by a
• 26:51
  friend of mine, Lord Harris of High Cross.
• 26:54
  And this was during the Yugoslav war, and the British government
• 27:01
  had just given the Croatian leader an award.
• 27:11
  And I quoted from that man's book on Yugoslavia in which he'd
• 27:20
  said that genocide was a natural phenomenon commanded by the
• 27:28
  Almighty. And she paused when I told her
• 27:35
  this. And she said, well, that was a
• 27:37
  long time ago. And I said, no, it wasn't.
• 27:39
  It was only about 10-12 years ago.
• 27:42
  So we left in somewhat of a tense situation, should we say?
• 27:49
  Yeah. So that was my and then later,
• 27:52
  much later on, when she long after she'd retired, I went to a
• 27:58
  birthday party for her held at the IEA and we had a little bit
• 28:04
  of a chat then. But basically, of the three
• 28:07
  leaders, she was the most normal.
• 28:11
  Who were the other two? Johnson and Farage of.
• 28:16
  Tell tell us a little bit about meeting Johnson.
• 28:20
  Well, it's mainly. It was mainly through
• 28:24
  correspondence when I told him about the reality of the
• 28:28
  European treaties that we had signed.
• 28:31
  This is when people didn't know whether they could trust Johnson
• 28:35
  on Europe or not, because he'd spent a lot of the time as a
• 28:38
  journalist in Brussels. And I told him that we had
• 28:49
  signed a document which gave everyone in Europe the right to
• 28:55
  vote in our Westminster elections.
• 28:59
  And he said, Oh no, no, no, it's just local elections, as if that
• 29:04
  wasn't bad enough. And I said no, the wording is
• 29:09
  municipal elections. And I said the meaning of
• 29:12
  municipal in law is national, not local.
• 29:19
  He said no, no, no, I'm sure I better arrive and look it up.
• 29:24
  Anyway, he did a column and he had rung up the Foreign Office
• 29:30
  and said to a senior, the senior responsible civil servant, I
• 29:36
  hear you have signed this European Treaty which gives
• 29:39
  everyone the right to vote in our general elections and the
• 29:42
  matter. Don't be silly.
• 29:43
  He says no, no. And then he pursued it, saying
• 29:48
  what I had told him to say, that the municipal does not mean
• 29:55
  local in law. And and the civil servant said,
• 30:00
  Oh well, don't be stupid man. He says, wait a minute, I'll go
• 30:03
  and get the dictionary. Just to get the dictionary.
• 30:06
  He says here we are, here we are Johnson, I'll tell you what it
• 30:10
  actually says. It says municipal pertaining to
• 30:14
  the national O. Interesting.
• 30:23
  Yeah. I met him a couple of times
• 30:24
  subsequently, but I wasn't impressed.
• 30:27
  No, doesn't sound like he should have, but.
• 30:30
  I mean, at least he did the right thing there as a
• 30:32
  journalist and it did expose the reality of the dangerous
• 30:37
  treaties that we had signed. Right, right.
• 30:41
  I didn't know about his background as a journalist.
• 30:43
  That's. Oh yes, yes, he was on the
• 30:44
  Telegraph for years. Very interesting as a spectator.
• 30:49
  So now we have to come out to Farage and your.
• 30:52
  Experience. Well, I'd rather just not talk
• 30:54
  about Farage. I mean, personally we didn't get
• 30:57
  on at all. Politically, we more or less
• 31:01
  agreed, but I think it's best just to not talk about him.
• 31:06
  How would you contrast him with what Ben Habib is trying to do
• 31:10
  with well? Ben Habib is very good about it.
• 31:13
  He and Rupert Lowe, I think are two of the best potential
• 31:18
  leaders of a what I would call, you know, the the insurgent
• 31:22
  movement. It's a pity that reform have so
• 31:25
  many defects, should we say right?
• 31:28
  Not least not having those two inside.
• 31:32
  What do you see that Habib and Lo could offer the country
• 31:37
  between the two of them if they were working together, for
• 31:39
  example? Well, they have.
• 31:41
  They have genuine insight as to what the problems are.
• 31:45
  They're not prepared. They're not shy of saying what
• 31:48
  needs to be done and they have the personality to try and do it
• 31:52
  if they have the power. Whereas I think so many people
• 31:57
  in refer in the in the Reform Party, especially those
• 32:00
  newcomers from the Conservative Party, yeah, would not have any
• 32:04
  of those attributes. So what are your?
• 32:08
  I know you've had some experiences in the past of
• 32:11
  running for for elections and standing for elections to.
• 32:15
  Do you want to? I would be interested to hear
• 32:16
  about your experiences coming in as sort of not a member of the
• 32:19
  UNI party. What was that like when you
• 32:22
  attempted to run for office in the past?
• 32:25
  Well, I stood for James Goldsmith's Referendum Party and
• 32:32
  when was that? Can't remember exactly 1998 Was
• 32:38
  it the Europe you're? I've got 19.
• 32:41
  I've got 1997 in northwest Durham.
• 32:43
  Northwest Durham. That's right.
• 32:45
  That's yes. And I saved my deposit, which is
• 32:50
  not bad for a first time party and a first time candidate.
• 32:57
  James Goldsmith was very good. Another person who you could
• 33:01
  have relied on to do the right thing if he'd had the power
• 33:05
  behind him politically. And then I then stood for UKIP
• 33:10
  in 1999 in the European elections and we got 8 1/2% in
• 33:18
  the northeast. So those are my 2 electoral
• 33:26
  dalliances. I know what I've spoken with
• 33:28
  Brian Garish in the past about his attempts at standing for
• 33:32
  elections. He was was difficult for him.
• 33:35
  He's tried to stand as an independent and he just could
• 33:39
  not get any airtime because he wasn't aligning correctly with
• 33:43
  the, you know, with the party. And so he was, you know, only
• 33:46
  given a few seconds to to state his platform and.
• 33:49
  That's right. Was that your experience as
• 33:51
  well? Yes, exactly that.
• 33:53
  That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:56
  It's unfortunate when we're not able to to if we're supposed to
• 34:01
  be able to have open elections, but it doesn't seem as though we
• 34:04
  do when we we yes. Well, it's a bit like the nation
• 34:08
  in general. You see, we have been told, for
• 34:10
  instance, when we were part of the European Union, that we were
• 34:14
  an independent country. We're just part of this free
• 34:17
  association, which we weren't, and that we had our own
• 34:21
  parliament, which we didn't have, and that which we made our
• 34:24
  own laws, which we didn't do. All these things we know were a
• 34:28
  lie. And ironically, now that we have
• 34:32
  left the European Union, in many ways even that is a bit of a lie
• 34:37
  because we know so many commitments that we've made to
• 34:44
  to continue to pay large sums of money for many years to come.
• 34:51
  And that having left the European Union, we then involved
• 34:57
  ourselves in the European Union's military through
• 35:02
  alliance with them, fight on the side of Ukraine against Russia
• 35:09
  on the grounds that somehow the Europe, that Russia's invasion
• 35:14
  was unprovoked, but nothing was more provoked than that
• 35:20
  thousands of Russians had lost their lives in eastern Ukraine.
• 35:26
  And we went along with the European Union's interpretation
• 35:34
  of the ideological and military position, which was absolute
• 35:38
  nonsense. And we can see not just if in
• 35:44
  Europe with the way that Germany's expanded eastwards
• 35:48
  politically through the European Union, but economically through
• 35:52
  German corporations. And we saw the same thing now in
• 35:56
  Ukraine, with American corporations buying up whole
• 36:00
  areas of agricultural land and mineral resources.
• 36:05
  Now it is precisely this mixture of state power, military power
• 36:12
  and corporate takeover which is reminiscent of of fascism.
• 36:20
  Now, a lot of it is probably totally alien.
• 36:24
  My accusations would be alien to the many of those people doing
• 36:27
  it because they have no historical concept of what
• 36:32
  happened before. But really, what's just the same
• 36:40
  way that the European Union has reproduced so much of Nazi
• 36:43
  Europe? So in the war in Ukraine, we
• 36:49
  have landed on the side of people who openly support
• 36:53
  Nazism. The Azovs, the Idars, they're
• 36:57
  all these Nazi brigades. We've even trained them.
• 37:01
  I have a letter from one of our defence ministers admitting that
• 37:05
  they trained troops that included Azov militants.
• 37:12
  So we know what we're doing or we think maybe, maybe that they
• 37:18
  think it's not important. But anyone who knows Ukraine and
• 37:22
  Azov and these others where they trained in militaristic Nazi
• 37:26
  camps, young people just like the Hitler Youth did in Germany,
• 37:31
  and where you have throughout the country statues of Ukrainian
• 37:41
  Nazi collaborators during the war.
• 37:45
  And then the 1st of January every year, large celebrations
• 37:50
  of the birthday of Stepan Bandera, who is the most
• 37:54
  notorious of the Ukrainian Nazis during the war.
• 38:01
  I mean these, these openly fascist sympathies of the
• 38:13
  Ukrainian state should were a warning before the war.
• 38:18
  Indeed, many Western publications in America and
• 38:23
  Europe did occasionally cover this very thing.
• 38:28
  But then as soon as the war started, they covered it up and
• 38:31
  pretended never existed, even though the historical evidence
• 38:35
  is there. They did, they did uncover it,
• 38:39
  but they refused to put two and two together.
• 38:42
  So how is it that we ended up in this war fighting against one of
• 38:48
  the principal powers which settled the the last war?
• 38:55
  Without the Soviet Union, without the Russians, we would
• 38:57
  never have defeated the Nazis. I'm pretty sure of that.
• 39:02
  So one of the things that you mentioned to me when we were
• 39:04
  discussing this interview was about the UK being on the wrong
• 39:08
  side of the current, yes, Ukraine war.
• 39:11
  If you could talk a little bit more about that and how does
• 39:14
  that relate to what our relationship with Russia or
• 39:17
  maybe what it should be or is? Yes, you don't have to think
• 39:21
  that Russia is a free, openly democratic country to
• 39:27
  nevertheless say that they had a strong reason to fear what the
• 39:31
  West was doing as NATO advanced militarily towards the East.
• 39:39
  And as I say, by taking over Eastern European countries
• 39:43
  constitutionally after the Soviet Union had freed them, the
• 39:47
  European Union was doing the same thing.
• 39:51
  And that was a threat to Russia, there's no doubt about it.
• 39:54
  Ukraine, of course, especially eastern Ukraine, it's been
• 39:59
  Russian for longer than the entire existence of the United
• 40:02
  States. I mean, this is just elementary
• 40:07
  history. The the the Rus, the origin of
• 40:13
  the Russians, if you like genetically came from the Kiev
• 40:18
  area. And prior to it being Russian,
• 40:27
  it was the Belarus and Ukraine were part of the they weren't
• 40:33
  part of a country called Ukraine.
• 40:36
  They were part of the Polish Lithuanian Kingdom.
• 40:40
  So there's no history there. The only two times where Ukraine
• 40:44
  has risen as a state is in 1991, when Russia under Yeltsin was at
• 40:51
  a really powerless, decadent, economically disastrous level.
• 40:57
  And they felt they've had to sign up to the new order, which
• 41:02
  included a new state called Ukraine.
• 41:06
  That and pre prior to that, of course, at the Treaty of
• 41:10
  Brestlitovsk in 1918, when the Russians effectively surrendered
• 41:16
  to the German armies and the Germans established the
• 41:22
  Ukrainian state. So the so the two times when
• 41:27
  there was any semblance of the Ukrainian state, you can see
• 41:31
  that they were not very stable political times, right, Right.
• 41:42
  But I mean, we can see how this war has affected international
• 41:48
  affairs. It has caused great tension
• 41:53
  between North and South Korea, between Taiwan and China,
• 41:59
  between the West and Iran, driving Russia and China on one
• 42:05
  hand towards disreputable countries like North Korea and
• 42:12
  Iran when really they would not normally do so.
• 42:17
  I mean, what? What really has China got in
• 42:20
  common with Russia? China is Southeast Asian, Russia
• 42:26
  is European or mostly European where the power is.
• 42:31
  China is communist, Russia is Christian, and there's certainly
• 42:42
  not much in common between ideologically between North
• 42:46
  Korea and Russia and Russia. But they are being forced
• 42:50
  together now strategically, politically and militarily,
• 42:54
  which is extremely dangerous for South Korea, which is extremely
• 42:58
  dangerous for America. So you look around the world.
• 43:01
  This one stupid, incompetent Ukraine adventure of the Wests
• 43:08
  has produced a very dangerous situation.
• 43:10
  Yes. And every day produces more
• 43:13
  dangerous situations. Would you have forecasted that
• 43:17
  at the start of it that it would, that it would become this
• 43:20
  serious around the world? Well, I forecast some of it.
• 43:24
  I knew that China would become more aggressive towards Taiwan
• 43:28
  as a result of Ukraine, and that certainly happened.
• 43:36
  But then of course domestically, Britain has put in billions into
• 43:43
  the into Ukraine and sent troops, far more troops than
• 43:49
  have been publicly admitted I'm sure.
• 43:54
  And the government is because of heightened tensions between West
• 43:59
  and East, or rather between the West and the global South and
• 44:03
  the East, because most of the global S are not on the side of
• 44:08
  Britain and Europe, between America and Europe.
• 44:19
  Therefore, the dangers are getting worse every day and and
• 44:23
  Trump at least has understood that he has to settle this
• 44:27
  Ukraine war. He sees exactly what has
• 44:30
  happened as as was so predictable.
• 44:34
  Now his ideas may not be the best ideas, but at least he's
• 44:38
  recognised the crisis and the danger.
• 44:43
  The trouble is he's then simultaneously quartered other
• 44:48
  potential wars. I mean, he's doing his best to
• 44:51
  try and solve the Middle East, but it's pretty, it's a pretty
• 44:58
  crude way of trying to do it. And it's, I'm not very
• 45:02
  optimistic in the Middle East. He's caught in more trouble in
• 45:06
  South America. Yeah, Venezuela.
• 45:08
  I mean, I'm not, I'm sympathetic towards his motives but worried
• 45:14
  about his means. Same in Greenland.
• 45:18
  I mean there was a perfectly reasonable Greenland Danish USA
• 45:25
  agreement signed in 1951, a treaty which gave the Americans
• 45:29
  so much right of access and use of Greenland for military
• 45:34
  purposes. Why he could not have just used
• 45:38
  that at the very beginning instead of now falling back on
• 45:41
  it after causing so many eruptions, I don't know, but
• 45:45
  it's all part of the general worldwide instability, the one
• 45:51
  of the trigger points of which the main trigger point of which
• 45:55
  was the Ukraine war. Right, right.
• 45:59
  So what are your thoughts on Trump's international policies?
• 46:04
  Because this is something that has been covered extensively in
• 46:07
  UK column in recent times, in particular his alliance with
• 46:10
  Israel and Netanyahu. And there there's a lot of
• 46:14
  strong feelings and it's an incredibly complex situation.
• 46:17
  It's always something I'm trying to understand a little bit
• 46:20
  better. Yes, I think when it comes to
• 46:24
  Israel in the Middle East, I'm not competent to comment.
• 46:27
  That's how I feel as well. It's it's so complicated.
• 46:31
  It's always something we get asked.
• 46:32
  Are the anyone in the world who is competent to comment?
• 46:35
  I agree entirely. I mean, I think it's all going
• 46:38
  to be subsumed into the general is Islamic versus the West
• 46:46
  conflict. I think that's what's happening
• 46:49
  to it. But apart from that comment, I
• 46:52
  wouldn't comment. I'm, I'm with you.
• 46:56
  I, I do think we have to be aware of what's happening to the
• 46:58
  West in terms of our civilization and, and working to
• 47:02
  protect it. And that's just, I guess a bit
• 47:06
  of a, a personal view, but I, I do see kind of the, the
• 47:09
  potential for the, the amount of immigration that we're having
• 47:15
  come into this country and other Western countries and what that
• 47:18
  means for the future of our cultures.
• 47:22
  Yeah, I mean mass immigration is something which the corporatist
• 47:26
  leftist establishments have brought upon themselves because
• 47:31
  this is one of the things that is always united the the left
• 47:36
  and the right, or rather the corporate right and the status
• 47:40
  left, the totalitarian left. The left don't recognise nation
• 47:46
  States and therefore they don't effectively don't recognise the
• 47:50
  democracy which grows out of nation states.
• 47:54
  And the way they try to attack the nation states nowadays is
• 47:59
  mass immigration. So sure, you can have your
• 48:02
  country, but we'll change the population by mass immigration.
• 48:06
  Right. And on the right we have big
• 48:08
  corporations, multinationals say, yeah, we agree with you on
• 48:12
  the left because we want these people as cheap labour.
• 48:17
  And so there's the unholy alliance has another unholy
• 48:22
  result. Right.
• 48:25
  It's, you know, and I've, I've just been in recent times
• 48:28
  noticing if we look at the names of some of our political leaders
• 48:32
  throughout the UK, look at their names, Humza Yousaf, I, I lived
• 48:36
  in Scotland for several years. If we look at Sadiq Khan, if we
• 48:40
  look at the, the recent, it's been all over social media
• 48:44
  recently. The health minister in Wales is
• 48:45
  from Somalia. We look at these names of the
• 48:49
  Sunak. Yeah.
• 48:52
  I mean, there's no doubt about the, the international
• 48:55
  directions that we've been talking about in normal times
• 49:01
  would be second place to this domestic takeover by mass
• 49:08
  immigration. There's no doubt about it.
• 49:10
  But we know who to blame for that.
• 49:12
  We we're a supine Tory government, an enthusiastic
• 49:19
  Liberal Democrat Party and Labour Party which in the words
• 49:24
  of Peter Mandelson, scoured the world to find new voters.
• 49:31
  So it's, it's no surprise and of course, the idea that that you
• 49:38
  can import large numbers of people of different cultural
• 49:44
  backgrounds, languages, and above all religions, religions
• 49:49
  whose holy books actually prescribe killing people of
• 49:54
  other religions, of denigrating women, of not mixing or
• 50:00
  associating with other people of other religions.
• 50:03
  I mean, these are, it's not just Islam, it's mainly Islam, of
• 50:08
  course. But I mean, if you look at the,
• 50:11
  the Jewish holy books, there's some pretty nasty things there
• 50:14
  as well about other religions. So I mean, when, when the
• 50:20
  government passed its hate laws and its religious hatred laws
• 50:23
  and so on, they seemed, I understand they excluded
• 50:28
  religious books from that. Well, what we've got to do is go
• 50:32
  back and include religious books.
• 50:35
  You can't. You can't have people on the one
• 50:39
  hand trying to make peace and integrate internally if if every
• 50:44
  week they go and listen to a religious book read to them
• 50:47
  which tells them to do the opposite.
• 50:50
  That's right, That's right. I'd be interested to hear you
• 50:53
  talk a little bit about hate speech and free speech because
• 50:56
  I'm you know, if we look at the idea of free speech meaning at
• 51:02
  an absolute level that no words are actually harmful, but then
• 51:07
  we have the. Well, we've always had the laws
• 51:09
  to cover that. I mean, if people wish to say
• 51:12
  extremely dangerous and insulting things, calling on
• 51:16
  other people to kill other people and calling on other
• 51:20
  people to express themselves in violent ways, we've always had
• 51:23
  laws to cover that. We didn't need any hate speech
• 51:26
  laws to do that. But we still have the threat now
• 51:29
  of police knocking down people's doors because they wrote a post
• 51:34
  that was hateful. Yes, that's right.
• 51:37
  Yeah, yeah. Thousands of arrests every year.
• 51:41
  It's a despicable, I'm afraid we've become a pretty despicable
• 51:44
  country just because everything has been thrown up in the air by
• 51:49
  this destruction of democracy, by this fudging of left and
• 51:55
  right, fudging of political choice.
• 51:59
  It's all about the power of the collectives of the left and the
• 52:03
  right, and we've got to defeat them.
• 52:07
  But the people who are going to defeat them, I don't know who.
• 52:11
  Reform was a great opportunity. Maybe it still is, but it's
• 52:17
  going to have to change a bit. I've read in your background
• 52:21
  that you've worked as a lecturer in Germany.
• 52:24
  What? How was your experience of that
• 52:26
  compared to working in here in this country?
• 52:29
  Did you find that you had academic freedom, intellectual
• 52:32
  freedom there or? Oh yes, there was.
• 52:34
  There was no problem. But on the other hand, I wasn't
• 52:37
  in, I wasn't in politics. I was in linguistics.
• 52:40
  Oh, OK, OK. So it wasn't very controversial.
• 52:42
  Not, not, not as much. No, not quite so much.
• 52:46
  I mean, I did a lot. I think I hoped I did a lot.
• 52:50
  Anyway, for the students. It was at the University of
• 52:53
  Mines in Germany on the confluence of the Rhine and the
• 52:57
  mine and I run an English folk club, an English film club and I
• 53:08
  organised language courses here at Newcastle during the term
• 53:14
  holidays. So I I have, I can say that I
• 53:19
  have a pedigree of international understanding, if you like
• 53:24
  promotion of international understanding and that I
• 53:28
  certainly would not be part of the jingoistic nationalism.
• 53:33
  Indeed, as my whole point of my website, Free Nations is to
• 53:38
  promote the notion of nationism, not nationalism.
• 53:42
  Right. And how do you define the
• 53:44
  difference yourself? Well, nationalism is protective,
• 53:48
  doesn't believe in free trade, usually has a strong socialist
• 53:53
  element in it. Authoritarian, centralised,
• 53:57
  jingoistic. None of those I would accept.
• 54:02
  I I came to the recognition that the European Union was bad not
• 54:08
  because I wanted Britain to be free and great again, but
• 54:12
  because I wanted Britain to be democratic again.
• 54:15
  I wanted the other nation states to be democratic as well.
• 54:19
  And it's only when a country has a more or less homogenic
• 54:29
  structure where there is a clear majority of people who share the
• 54:33
  same values, that you can even build a democracy on it in the
• 54:37
  first place. And the more you undermine that,
• 54:39
  the more you undermine democracy, which is, of course,
• 54:42
  is exactly what the supranational globalists and
• 54:44
  fascists want to do. Which is to basically.
• 54:49
  And the answer to that is nationism, which brings things
• 54:53
  back to the local, to the community, to the regional, and
• 54:58
  to the nation state. That's, that's absolutely true.
• 55:03
  You know, it isn't. You're making me think back to
• 55:05
  when I first applied to to move to this country over a decade
• 55:09
  ago and sort of on a points based immigration system where
• 55:13
  you had to say, for example, you got points towards your visa
• 55:16
  application if English was your native language.
• 55:19
  And that was, you know, that was 2014, I believe, when I first
• 55:24
  applied to come over here. So there are, you know, sort of
• 55:28
  a shared set of, of backgrounds that you and I both have from
• 55:31
  our countries. I, I personally would find it, I
• 55:36
  found would find it very difficult to live.
• 55:38
  And I've been to Saudi Arabia. I felt extremely uncomfortable
• 55:41
  there, completely out of my realm of understanding of the
• 55:45
  world and especially travelling alone as a woman, it was very
• 55:47
  uncomfortable for me. So, you know, for them to come
• 55:50
  over here and and bring those values and cultures which are
• 55:53
  theirs and they have the right to those.
• 55:57
  Yeah. I mean, so few people that when
• 56:00
  we had real democratic nationhood, really understood
• 56:08
  what it was and what the precursors of a democratic
• 56:11
  system are and of understanding of social cohesion.
• 56:16
  And it's only when you you start losing it that people wake up to
• 56:20
  the fact that, Oh yes, we used to do this and we can't do it
• 56:23
  anymore. I wonder why?
• 56:28
  Well, it's, it wasn't by accident.
• 56:30
  It was because certain people had a certain set of values that
• 56:33
  were not ours and they were seeking power.
• 56:37
  They were seeking power, games power for supranational
• 56:40
  organisations over the rights of individual nation States and
• 56:45
  therefore over the rights of the democratic expression of opinion
• 56:49
  by those states, people. So it is.
• 56:53
  Given what the globalists and the corporatists and the
• 56:57
  socialists wanted, it's not surprising what's happened when
• 57:02
  they got together. Right, Right.
• 57:04
  And they seem to be very determined to destroy those
• 57:07
  shared identities and cultures and backgrounds.
• 57:10
  Oh. Yes, you can see they're
• 57:11
  beginning to say it openly now what they did not say openly
• 57:15
  while they were doing it. Right, right.
• 57:17
  That's right. And as regards the solutions to
• 57:21
  the problem, well, as I say in Britain, there's a slight chance
• 57:25
  that reform might be able to do something.
• 57:29
  But I think it's going to have to learn more and it's going to
• 57:32
  have to be careful who it lets in.
• 57:34
  If it's seen just as a a retirement home for failed
• 57:39
  politicians who went along with the disaster when they were in
• 57:43
  power, then it's not going to work because people are going to
• 57:48
  be, they're going to be rumbled. But political parties like
• 57:54
  Reform or like the Afd in Germany or the Le Pen party in
• 58:02
  France that are accused of being fascists and far right and all
• 58:06
  the rest of it. But the interesting thing is
• 58:09
  that Reform more or less has understood, I think without
• 58:15
  expressing it to radically, what I've said about Ukraine, the Afd
• 58:22
  in Germany or not Nazis, otherwise they would be fighting
• 58:26
  on the side of Kiev. They opposed the war.
• 58:29
  And the same in France. That Marine Le Pen's party
• 58:35
  founded by her father, was it Jean Marie Le Pen.
• 58:42
  He, he fought the Germans, Nazis during the war, although he said
• 58:48
  a few unhelpful things after that, but nevertheless, these
• 58:56
  revolutionary parties within the Western system like reform, like
• 59:00
  Afd, like, like the Front Nacional.
• 59:04
  No, it's not called the Front Nacional.
• 59:05
  It's called something else now, isn't it?
• 59:07
  Oh, yes, yes, yeah. Anyway.
• 59:12
  Or people like Maloney's party in Italy who are not, who are at
• 59:19
  least sceptical about the Ukraine war and people who are
• 59:25
  really are Nazis. There are some nasty Nazi
• 59:28
  movements in Germany, for instance.
• 59:30
  And where do they go? Do they, do they fight for the
• 59:33
  Russians? No, they fight against the
• 59:35
  Russians in Ukraine, right? That's right.
• 59:40
  And there are Russian Nazis as well, some pretty nasty gangs of
• 59:45
  Russian Nazis. And who do they fight?
• 59:46
  Do they fight on the side of Russia?
• 59:48
  No, they fight on the side of Ukraine.
• 59:53
  So this is the true nature of the problem.
• 59:56
  And it's exact opposite, of course, to what is said by the
• 59:59
  media. So what are some people here
• 1:00:04
  usually get quite upset, understandably, what what are
• 1:00:07
  some practical solutions that you can offer for for somebody
• 1:00:12
  watching this and thinking, what can I do?
• 1:00:15
  What can we do as a country? What can I do individually?
• 1:00:20
  It's a difficult question, I know.
• 1:00:24
  Well, we've got to get back to Democratic nation states.
• 1:00:28
  We've got to stop mass immigration.
• 1:00:30
  We've got to get rid of the the woke, the woke fascists, if you
• 1:00:36
  like. We've got to redefine words in
• 1:00:40
  politics so people really know what they mean.
• 1:00:43
  Like public and state, for instance, or like fascist and
• 1:00:47
  democratic. And who are the fascists?
• 1:00:50
  Who are the Democrats? And to forget about left and
• 1:00:54
  right because it's just as I've pointed out that the left and
• 1:00:59
  the right are together in fascist systems, so the left and
• 1:01:03
  the right also combine in anti fascist systems.
• 1:01:09
  It seems to me the left and the right have become rather false.
• 1:01:13
  Well, they've for long been false dichotomies.
• 1:01:16
  I wrote a book in 1988 called The Emancipated Society, which I
• 1:01:22
  think is still relevant today. Yes.
• 1:01:24
  Where I pointed out that left and right, the horizontal axis
• 1:01:30
  is irrelevant. What's important is the vertical
• 1:01:33
  access between libertarian and authoritarian.
• 1:01:38
  And you get people on the left going to the authoritarian,
• 1:01:41
  people on the right going to the libertarian.
• 1:01:44
  And well, the whole thing is throwing up in the air.
• 1:01:48
  It's, it's a bit of a mess. That's why it needs redefining
• 1:01:51
  so we know which side we're all on.
• 1:01:54
  And, you know, it was interesting during the 2020 era
• 1:01:58
  when it was the the people who I would say would identify with
• 1:02:01
  the left were the ones trying to force the lockdowns and the mask
• 1:02:04
  mandates and the, Oh yes, required vaccinations.
• 1:02:08
  The political tyranny in fascism is usually led by the left.
• 1:02:14
  I mean, Hitler joined the German Labour Party, Benito Mussolini
• 1:02:19
  in Italy, He came from the Italian Socialist Party, and of
• 1:02:27
  course the leader of the British Union are fascists.
• 1:02:30
  Oswald Mosley at various times was both in the Labour and
• 1:02:35
  Conservative administrations. So I mean, the evidence is
• 1:02:41
  there, it's quite clear. And if the insurgent parties
• 1:02:48
  have got to start attacking the left as fascists, not all of the
• 1:02:53
  left, of course. There is what I call the welfare
• 1:02:56
  socialist, who cares really about welfare.
• 1:03:00
  His aim is not exploiting the poor in order to build up the
• 1:03:05
  power of the state. It's to have a fair distribution
• 1:03:09
  of wealth between rich and poor. Now, I disagree with a lot of
• 1:03:12
  what they stand for, but they have a laudable aim and laudable
• 1:03:18
  methods. But the increasingly the left
• 1:03:22
  has been dominated by the fascist left, by the state power
• 1:03:26
  left that wants to exploit the poor to increase their power,
• 1:03:32
  not to emancipate the poor, which is what my book, The
• 1:03:35
  Emancipated Society was all about.
• 1:03:38
  That if the state emancipates the poor, gets them onto a level
• 1:03:42
  of, of, of of emancipated choice where they can set about
• 1:03:47
  building their own lives, then that's good.
• 1:03:49
  That's what the state should do. And but limited, not perpetually
• 1:03:53
  for our signing cheques on welfare.
• 1:03:58
  Because that what does that do? It makes the recipient weak and
• 1:04:02
  the state strong. Right.
• 1:04:05
  Right. And that is not the kind of left
• 1:04:08
  that we want. And it's interesting, you see a
• 1:04:11
  lot of the online rhetoric, the left calling the right the
• 1:04:16
  fascists and Trump is a literal Nazi, you know, all these
• 1:04:19
  ridiculous things we see it's. Exact opposite of the case, but
• 1:04:22
  it's it's because the the Trumpian revolution in America
• 1:04:28
  and the reform revolution here have not understood the basics
• 1:04:33
  and they have not accused the left of open fascism as they
• 1:04:37
  should do, right? If they don't, if they don't
• 1:04:40
  call a spade a spade, then they will be called fascists
• 1:04:44
  themselves and they will have no defence.
• 1:04:47
  Because it's a simplistic historical reaction of left wing
• 1:04:52
  adolescents that they call everyone a fascist who they
• 1:04:54
  disagree with. That's.
• 1:04:55
  Right. That's right.
• 1:04:57
  But we now know, both in theory, of course, or as always but in
• 1:05:02
  practice every day, and by observing international affairs,
• 1:05:08
  that fascism is both left and right, and do we need to attack
• 1:05:13
  it? It's, it seems to me, you know,
• 1:05:18
  just on a bit of a slightly personal note, I, I'm so curious
• 1:05:22
  to hear about your background and how you and your brother
• 1:05:25
  Rowan reached the point where you are being so, you know, so
• 1:05:29
  well known in our society and to be able to say these things that
• 1:05:33
  you say. And that in my opinion, your
• 1:05:35
  brother Rowan expresses through comedy so well.
• 1:05:38
  And that you both have been advocates for a free speech and,
• 1:05:42
  you know, really questioning the system for so long and coming
• 1:05:47
  from the rural Northeast to where you have achieved all of
• 1:05:51
  this knowledge that all these, all these wonderful things
• 1:05:54
  you've written and all the work that you have done over the
• 1:05:56
  years. How, how did you reach this
• 1:05:58
  point? It's just, it's to me, it's such
• 1:06:00
  an amazing story that you have. Well, I suppose we both have
• 1:06:06
  interests formed by our parents. My father study politics,
• 1:06:13
  philosophy and economics at Oxford and he was a local
• 1:06:20
  councillor in concert and we usually talked politics around
• 1:06:28
  the dining room table. People had dining rooms in those
• 1:06:34
  days and I did my first degree in German and I did my
• 1:06:47
  dissertation on Germany after the First World War compared to
• 1:06:53
  Germany after the Second World War.
• 1:06:55
  Oh, right, So that's right. Fascinating.
• 1:06:59
  That helped a bit as well in my books.
• 1:07:04
  It started me off. Should we say I'm studying the
• 1:07:07
  right things? And Rowan, of course, arrives at
• 1:07:14
  his libertarian attitude to free speech through the restrictions
• 1:07:21
  on comedy. Right.
• 1:07:25
  He's never been particularly political, no, no, He's arrived
• 1:07:29
  at it through personal experience in his own
• 1:07:31
  profession. Exactly right, right.
• 1:07:35
  And that, you know, I think that's one of the things that we
• 1:07:37
  see in comedy, especially now with all of these clampdowns and
• 1:07:42
  free speech, that, you know, part of the power of comedy is,
• 1:07:46
  is calling out what actually happens in reality.
• 1:07:50
  But they can't do it in the same way anymore because they will
• 1:07:54
  lose their their potential for a career.
• 1:07:57
  That's. Right.
• 1:07:58
  No, it is. It is a totalitarian persecutors
• 1:08:04
  system and we've got to get rid of the laws which have prepared
• 1:08:09
  the way for it, most of them introduced by Tony Blair.
• 1:08:14
  I mean, Blair was a disaster for this country.
• 1:08:17
  Right. Even though we went to the same
• 1:08:19
  school as me. Oh, really fascinating.
• 1:08:25
  So this has been a great discussion.
• 1:08:27
  Is, is there anything else that you would like to say to the
• 1:08:29
  audience that we haven't covered?
• 1:08:32
  I know we've we've covered quite a bit.
• 1:08:36
  No, I, I think that's, I think that's more or less it.
• 1:08:42
  Obviously the whole area, new different areas which you can
• 1:08:45
  discuss at different times. But I think the important thing
• 1:08:50
  is to get this idea of corporatism and its evils over,
• 1:08:54
  to get people thinking in terms of why it is that left and right
• 1:08:59
  no longer mean anything. I think that's very important.
• 1:09:03
  That the new alliances are have got to become clearer.
• 1:09:08
  The definitions of our life have got to become clearer.
• 1:09:11
  Not elites, elitists, not state, public, not public state.
• 1:09:17
  You know, all these basic concepts have got to be
• 1:09:20
  understood and how they're manipulated by people in power
• 1:09:25
  to mean the opposite of what they should mean.
• 1:09:27
  Yes, yes. So we talk quite a bit on UK
• 1:09:30
  column about the inversion of language and that's what's
• 1:09:34
  happening if we call Trump a fascist.
• 1:09:37
  That's right. That's what they're doing is
• 1:09:39
  inverting and making us try to believe the opposite of what's
• 1:09:42
  actually happening. And it's so language is so
• 1:09:44
  powerful. That's right in that regard.
• 1:09:47
  Mind you when when the anti fascist left and right get
• 1:09:52
  together it is possible. I mean, they are forced together
• 1:09:58
  by a corrupt system, but they tend to produce because the
• 1:10:05
  situation is desperate. They produce vocal,
• 1:10:09
  grandstanding figures, people like Trump, people like Farage.
• 1:10:15
  Now they're very valuable. But the trouble is they can go
• 1:10:20
  off the rails. They can think that a system,
• 1:10:26
  even though they know the system is corrupt, and they assume that
• 1:10:31
  if the political system produced them, it must be important.
• 1:10:35
  Yeah, you see what I mean? Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:10:38
  Yeah. And of course it's not
• 1:10:39
  necessarily, and they've got to be very careful about what they
• 1:10:43
  say and do, but they've got to be clear as to the real battles
• 1:10:47
  and who's on whose side. Otherwise they'll end up on the
• 1:10:50
  wrong side again. I.
• 1:10:52
  Mean. We don't want Trump going around
• 1:10:55
  the war, the world, fighting wars, having condemned Biden for
• 1:10:59
  doing just that. Right, That's right.
• 1:11:03
  Right. And we don't want Farage
• 1:11:06
  apologising for the disastrous COVID just because he's taken on
• 1:11:12
  the Sahawi. Yeah, the vaccine minister.
• 1:11:17
  That's right. That's right.
• 1:11:18
  I mean, that that's the trouble. That's the trouble with
• 1:11:21
  political leadership that people can get.
• 1:11:24
  I mean, it's understandable that even in normal times, if you
• 1:11:28
  become political leader, people can think that ideas of a
• 1:11:31
  frustration. They're really just one voter
• 1:11:34
  like everyone else. And the more they realise that,
• 1:11:37
  the more they can understand the pressures and the corruptions
• 1:11:41
  that have got to be put right. If they think they're above it
• 1:11:45
  all themselves, then dangerous. Absolutely.
• 1:11:49
  Well, thank you again, Rodney. This has been a great
• 1:11:52
  discussion, very informative. Thank you for for your time and
• 1:11:55
  thank you for the contributions you've made to UK column and
• 1:11:59
  your relationship with Brian Garish over the years, which I
• 1:12:02
  know he values greatly as well. So it's been wonderful to have
• 1:12:05
  this conversation with you and maybe we can do this again
• 1:12:08
  sometime and. You're very welcome.
• 1:12:09
  You're very welcome. Thank you very much.
• 1:12:11
  Thanks everyone. This has been Diane Rasmussen at
• 1:12:13
  UK Column talking with Rodney Atkinson up here in the
• 1:12:17
  northeast of England. Thank you for your attention and
• 1:12:19
  for your support. Thank you very much and thank
• 1:12:21
  you again, Rodney.