Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 311. AMA: How Can Small Shop Nonprofits Build an Amazing Culture?- Jonathan McCoy, CFRE and Becky Endicott, CFRE

Transcript

311. AMA: How Can Small Shop Nonprofits Build an Amazing Culture?- Jonathan McCoy, CFRE and Becky Endicott, CFRE · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Technology alone can't solve the challenges nonprofits face. And that's why Neon One provides software that empowers you to manage constituents all while giving you the resources and support you need to connect to what
• 0:12
  matters most: your people and their passions. Learn more about how neon one is helping nonprofits create stronger connections by visiting neonone.com/weareforgood.
• 0:25
  matters most: Hey, I'm Jon.
• 0:26
  Becky Endicott: And I'm Becky.
• 0:27
  Jonathan McCoy: And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
• 0:29
  Becky Endicott: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:39
  Jonathan McCoy: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:47
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:58
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started.
• 1:00
  Jonathan McCoy: Happy Friday, Becky.
• 1:01
  Becky Endicott: Hey, everybody.
• 1:01
  Becky Endicott: Welcome back. We're about to have a little AMA today. Small shops, we see you.
• 1:08
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah, we see you. And we just wanted to carve out a couple of weeks. And it just kind of jive with our voicemail. And if you don't know about our voicemail, head over to speakpipe.com/weareforgood.
• 1:14
  Jonathan McCoy: And you can like drop into the podcast. Like whenever you have a question that's burning in your head, it's really the best.
• 1:22
  Becky Endicott: We love it when the voice of the community comes in. Like we want your questions, your lived experience, the things that are getting you stuck, we want to know what they are, we want to dive in and help you.
• 1:32
  Jonathan McCoy: Exactly. And that's that's what happened. You know, our friend Rachel Barbera, she's been on the podcast, she hangs in our community. She loves small shops. And when we're saying small shops, we're talking about nonprofits that don't have all the resources, they're, you know, run by just a couple of, a handful of people, a small team of people, and they're trying to do at all and that is really her passion to really pour into those leaders because she used to lead a small shop. And so we wanted to, you know, lift these voicemails take the next couple of weeks unpack both the questions because they're so pertinent to so many people in this community, and just give you know, our advice of how it points back to values that we talk about on the podcast and really incredible people that we have gotten to interact with through the show.
• 2:10
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's without further ado, let's roll that voicemail.
• 2:13
  Rachel Bearbower: Hey, Jon, Becky and Julie, Rachel Bearbower, here from Small Shop Strategies. So every time you talk about culture and leadership, within organizations, I am just glued to the podcast searching for my notes. And I'd love to know what you are seeing working inside small shops, small organizations that are really shifting the culture and making a huge difference for their staff, their volunteers, even their board members, I'm looking for really tangible examples of how culture can be changed, and how that leadership is able to step in and revolutionize an organization. Can't wait to hear what you think.
• 3:08
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, I just love this question. I love it.
• 3:10
  Becky Endicott: I love this question too. And to even think that there are revolutionaries in our midst who are like ready to take on their, their culture and turn it around is really, really exciting. I hope that's you out there listening.
• 3:22
  Jonathan McCoy: Absolutely. And I feel very seen in this question too, because I want to add a little bit of tone setting that, you know, we want to lift some really amazing thought leaders that have come through the show or that have been in our midst that have taught us so much about this topic. And it's a topic we've really leaned into this year, if you've listened to the podcast, culture matters has been one of our themes that we've threaded through so many different conversations, but also want to say, you know, through the lens of our own company, We Are For Good. I mean, we feel like we're a small shop to you know, it's been Julie, Becky and myself for the first almost two years of the company, we've now have a team and it's growing, which is amazing. But I think there's been a definitive moment that at least my small thinking has held us back as we think about culture. I'm always thinking about how is this applying to these bigger organizations? And Becky, and I've had a lot of really good conversations lately, especially to say, No, like you're shaping the culture of how you interact outside of the walls, because it's not just an internal discussion. It's like, how are you interacting with everybody, this whole ecosystem of your organization, and you're setting that tone now, whether you're two people one person, however, you're showing up in the world, it matters to think about this because you definitely are already have a culture about it about your organization. And so I think that's a good realization starting point that I kind of had that aha that I wanted to, like, lean into first.
• 4:40
  Becky Endicott: I feel like you're being way too hard on yourself. I think you do a great job of building our culture. But I do think that a lot of the limiting beliefs that we've seen that have come through the podcast is people think their culture is like their physical space like the people who work in their shop and what we're saying is that culture is so much bigger than just your team, your staff. It's bigger than your volunteers. It's it's your donors. It's your programs. It's your messaging. It's your brand.
• 5:11
  Becky Endicott: It's the it's the way that people feel, when they see your logo on something, it's when they see an animal, are they equating that to your local organization? Or if there's a problem in the world, are they thinking about you first. And so many things are going to be a part of that recipe. And it's not limited to just the immediate people who are within your inner circle. And I do think that that is in a massively important space. And if any of those areas, there's incongruenty, then then the culture feels a hiccup. It feels a shift. And so if you're saying, you know certain things about your culture, but it's not being felt by your social media lurkers and influencers, then there's a real disconnect. And so I think there's a lot to be learned in this space. And hey, we're students of this just as much as all of you listening out there. So of course, we had to like tap into the experts who are within our midst, pouring great insight into the community. And I think one of the best quotes that I've heard about culture comes from Ted Vaughn, Ted Vaughn, over at Historic Agency, we had him and Mark Miller on right after they had written this incredible book called Culture Built My Brand, you can go back and check that out in Episode 189, we go deep into culture, but Ted has this line. And we call it the like the mic drop culture line. And its culture is tension to manage, it's not a problem to solve. And so if you can think of culture as this organic part of how you interact, how you show up, how you communicate, how you cast vision, then it's going to be something that you're not trying to put a pretty stamp on and move it out of the way you understand. It's just an organic part of how you live and breathe in your mission. And with its people.
• 7:08
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah, and I mean, every yes to everything you just said. But it's also like this idea that it's not going to be like these two, three quick fixes, because it speaks to like a really deep undercurrent, you know. And so I love that the use of the word tension to manage because you're going to forever be managing this, like it's always going to be present. And it's going to be on some type of a continuum. And I think understanding that and realizing that also gives you a lot of hope that things can change. And threading personal stories here, too. I mean, Becky and I have been part of really high performing really connected close teams. And we'd been part of teams where there was, you know, screen protectors on the screen, and people shutting their doors to where there wasn't just like this culture of openness and
• 7:51
  Becky Endicott: I hated those times in our lives.
• 7:53
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah, like it was a darker time. But it totally over the course of a couple years shifted the other direction to were really close, tight knit team that was high performing. And so it's like, it is tension, and it is fluid. But another concept that I want to lift that Ted and Mark really put a lot of emphasis around is this idea of a marquee culture.
• 8:11
  Jonathan McCoy: And I love this because they think of it as like a marquee, you know, like an old cinema or something. I'm picturing like our downtown area,
• 8:18
  Becky Endicott: I'm seeing like the flashing lights.
• 8:19
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah, we call this a magnet also in the way we talk about it. But not only is it just this vibrant thing that's telling people about it, it's attracting, you know, it's pulling in. So in our situation with donors, we're attracting like value people that want to lift those things to our organizations. So it's not only healthy for the vibrancy of how we show up and do our work. But it's also that's pulling donors to align with us. And doing them as a small shop is so powerful, because you need the outside forces, you need volunteers that come in with volunteer with value alignment, that can help you, you know, fill some of the gaps that bigger organizations maybe don't need us filled from outside people.
• 9:33
  Becky Endicott: Yeah, I really identify with that. And I'm sure many of our listeners out there are thinking about all of these moments where there has been misalignment, which, you know, that's one of the things we want to lift with culture is that if your values and the way that you're operating are in misalignment, you're going to have a real problem with your culture right now. And I think one of the other experts that we really lean on, who has just a brilliant mind in navigating thriving teams is Aila Malik over there at Venture Leadership Consulting, and we had her on to talk about how to navigate seasons of change at your organization. No doubt every single one of you out there is navigating a season of a season of change. And she says this lack of alignment is really the thing that causes burnout among staff. And so when you look at unhealthy cultures that largely has to do with that lack of alignment and what we're seeing thing is, if you want to find a way back to Rachel's question about pulling all these different groups together, your staff, your volunteers, your board members, getting back to that truth, what are those true values? Why are we here? What do we believe? And we need to get back in alignment with that, and then we just need to start communicating, you know, what are we seeing what's out of alignment? What do we need to do to make things a little bit more harmonious? Does that mean we need to communicate more does that mean, we need to be more transparent, you know, to your point, Jon, maybe we need to stop shutting our doors, because that's creating a level of anxiety about what's happening.
• 11:15
  Becky Endicott: And that's just an assumption, you know, that can be managed through perception. And so these are things that we're going to have to dive into. And as a leader, it really becomes sometimes you start to be feel like you're the culture keeper here. And you spend a lot of time checking in making sure that everybody's on the same page and making sure that everybody's in harmony. So if you're looking for a starting point on how to figure out whether that alignment is in sync, go back to your values, talk to your people do a hard reset, and we need to audit these values in relation to our cultures.
• 11:52
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah. And that's going to lead us into places of discomfort. And I think, you know, we're coming out of this Enneagram series, I think it's been very public that I'm a Enneagram nine, which is a peacemaker. I don't love uncomfortable situations. But when you're talking about values, and things that deeply matter, and impact your ability to work together or engage together, like these conversations are so powerful, and Aila shared something that I think was so good, she said, we're gonna have to really practice having direct conversations and holding ourselves to a moment of discomfort without rescuing each other.
• 12:31
  Becky Endicott: Oh my gosh.
• 12:31
  Jonathan McCoy: I mean, right?
• 12:32
  Becky Endicott: It's so hard for my Enneagram two.
• 12:34
  Jonathan McCoy: And it's hard for my Enneagram nine, so put us together in trying to do that, right, I think it's going to be fascinating. But I do think you're starting to create this place where it's really value driven, and you're having these hard conversations, and letting those things just happen. And sitting in that space, you know, you're not just rescuing the moment, that'd be really easy to just put that off or change the subject. But really kind of wrestle through these things.
• 12:57
  Jonathan McCoy: Because it's so important, and it is holding us back. I want to share a few like points of just where you can get started with this, like how can leaders getting really practical, intentionally helped shape culture today. And this came up, we had a really robust discussion in Episode 263, we brought together a panel, including Ted and Aila that we've already mentioned, but just some incredible thought leaders in this space around this. And they say, you know, one, start by checking yourself as a leader, and then actually doing the work to improve and to course correct and do you know reflective exercises to figure out how you can evolve and how you can change. Two, and this kind of every time we talk about culture, but creating transparency, and clarity within your organization. Like those two things alone are going to lead to so much more trust across the team, and so much more success. I mean, in this era, when authenticity and transparency is such a value of our culture, and a greater, you know, aspect. I mean, think about how social media engages in all the discussions. Having that in your organization is only going to lead to more engagement, and more trust across the board. Number three is making time to build connection with each other. This is the thing that I think people easily go to they're like, Hey, we have bad culture, let's install like a slide, you know, at our place, or we do something here's a popcorn really fun, let's roll in the table. But honestly, even as a startup, it's hard for us to just carve out time to go have tacos, you know, but that's the time when we catch up on what's happening each other's family and having the conversations that not just about everything that you can get consumed by but creating those interactions as collisions that are outside of work are such a positive and powerful thing. And then looking for ways number four is looking for ways to create rituals as an organization. And I love that word. And Aila has really used that so much with us this year, to really coach and train us, but looking for ways and rituals around things that happen if somebody on your team has a family member that dies, what are the rituals around that? How do you surround them and support them and give them space and give them support. And that's just one aspect. As you kind of build in those things. It really does lock the team together in such a powerful way. And you kind of know how to respond, you know how to gather around people. And there's that expectation, which leads to clarity and transparency and all those other things kind of coming together. So they really do stack and I think that's a practical for things that anybody at any size organization can look at.
• 15:21
  Becky Endicott: Can I just sit on this for a second? Because I want to call out something that I think is a massive deficiency in our sector. And we put so much emphasis on and honing hard skills in our sector. And I bet a lot of people would look at this list and say, these are the soft skills. These are, these are soft things to do. And I would challenge anybody thinking in that way, saying, actually, we think these are the great catalysts that are the human interactive components that help build culture because they help people feel seen, valued and known. I mean, I gotta share the slushie run story. I mean, at some point, because you know, when we were, you know, young 20 somethings, like trying to run a marketing department at a higher ed foundation, we would have to get into these very intense creative brainstorming sessions where we would have to truly conceptualize something from the ground up. And it would be, you know, a very heady sort of a to our brainstorm. And we started doing this routine, you talked about rituals, where we would walk across the street from our foundation office, to the local gas station, we start calling them slushie runs, and we would all literally go get a drink, and we would go get something to eat. And then we would descend into our conference room, and everybody would be firing with their sugar and their energy drink, or whatever it is, and it just somehow leveled, you know, what we were about to do in a really even playing field.
• 17:03
  Becky Endicott: People were relaxed. We were laughing, we were got out of the office, we were in the sunshine.
• 17:06
  Becky Endicott: Something about slushie runs, like totally transformed our team and that moment accidentally, and so how are you creating pauses and moments of connection, I would always say as an Italian feeding is a great idea. You don't have a budget to feed somebody find a way to make someone again, feel seen known and valued because the human those social and soft skills are where the loyalty, the retention, the joy and affirmation in our job. That's where it's really found.
• 17:44
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, friends taken a pause from this feel good conversation to share a quick story, Hope & A Future is a nonprofit that serves children in the Arizona foster care system. Last year, they wanted to grow donations during Giving Tuesday. The only problem Giving Tuesday was only one day away.
• 17:59
  Jonathan McCoy: Determined to seize the opportunity, they reached out to our friends at Feathr. With help from Feathr's services Hope & A Future managed to launch a complete advertising campaign just in time. As a direct result, they raised more than$500 on Giving Tuesday, but that was just the beginning. Hope & A Future decided to follow up with an additional retargeting campaigns designed to increase donations and reengage previous donors. They raised over $32,000 with just a $4,000 ad spend.
• 18:24
  Jonathan McCoy: Nonprofits of all shapes and sizes are turning to Feathrr to grow their campaigns with targeted digital ad tools that reach people whenever and wherever they're online. Use Feathr to grow your urine fundraisers learn more about their solutions for nonprofits at feathr.co. That's feather without the last e dot co.
• 18:44
  Jonathan McCoy: I'm so glad you brought that up.
• 18:44
  Jonathan McCoy: But I'm beaming because it was a real deep cultural thing that it like started off because you as the leader initiated it. But by the end like
• 18:55
  Becky Endicott: Because I was like I want some m&ms Yeah. Get some peanut m&ms, let's go.
• 18:59
  Jonathan McCoy: But it became such a part of the culture. It's like I'm having a bum day, let's see who wants to go across and get a slushie. And it became just this thing. And our team became known for it at the entire foundation, which was hilarious. You know, it was like this coveted thing, which I think is so great.
• 19:13
  Becky Endicott: We would walk down the stairs and people would be like from accounting go, oh, are you going on a slushie run?
• 19:18
  Becky Endicott: And I'm like, they've even got the brand down, it really touched my heart. Okay, so we want to transition back because we really want to talk about maybe navigating broken culture.
• 19:30
  Becky Endicott: So if you're someone that's listening to this and saying, oh, gosh, I'm starting to hear some of these tenants of of what could be wrong with an organization take a deep in inhale, because it's totally fine. There are so many of us who are working through this very challenging time. And you know what, there's still time to grow and get better. So one of the first things that Mark and Ted over at Historic Agency talk to us about if you're trying to navigate a broken cultures is go back to those values. Again, I'm sorry to feel like you know, a broken record here. But most organizations have values go back and ask, how are they shaping how we show up? Do we all know what they are? How do we know that we're emulating those not only in just our product delivery, but in the way we interact with each other?
• 20:17
  Becky Endicott: That would be one. The other the next thing would be to start with writing down behaviors that do align with those values. And I like how do you call these behaviors out in the best possible way. I got to share a story that we had on the podcast With Hope for Haiti who, who lives so ardently their values that they actually give away were they coins, Jon or little tokens of some kind that they actually give their employees that have their value names on them. And when they get together in a staff meeting, they only have a certain amount of them to give away a year, they are empowered to give to give those values to their fellow employee, and shout out how they saw him living it in action. In fact, I remember the CEO on our podcast or dear friend Skyler Badenoch, saying, I was actually thinking that I'm going to give Christina, my colleague who's on here with me, one at our next one for doing X, Y, and Z on this podcast to bring it to bear it was such a cool moment, we actually got to see her face so lit up, that he would announce that publicly, what a cool way to empower each other just to keep uplifting one another.
• 21:32
  Jonathan McCoy: I love that example. Such a fan of Hope for Haiti in all the ways that they show up, they're such a great example. You know, just getting practical. Again, if you're having trouble getting a leader on board, let's say you're the person on the team that knows that there's like a broken culture, what can you do, and one of the things that I think we want to just really champion for you is that you can start small, you can start right with those closest around you, and do it within your own team. Because just like the slushie run example, it's like us doing that galvanized this, you know, connection between us that began to ripple out and I actually think more people started slushie running as a result, I don't have the data.
• 22:11
  Becky Endicott: I hope the world slushie runed after that, it was great.
• 22:15
  Jonathan McCoy: Everybody can start there, you can start with those closest to you, and you can control what you can control. And then just start by asking bigger, better questions.
• 22:22
  Jonathan McCoy: You know, that's a theme, we had a whole series that really challenged you to do that, and how we build our campaigns. And our launch is called the Impact arc. But start by asking really bigger, deeper questions, like What brings you joy here? Or what's something that really kills your productivity? How can you celebrate wins for yourself and for others? These kinds of questions are going to lead you into more meaningful discussion, and really under stand the root of what the problems are, and how you could really kind of dive in and start to attack that and start to like, fix and create new rituals or culture or whatever it may be for your organization.
• 22:54
  Becky Endicott: Okay, I got a pro tip here, that I think you can kill two birds with one stone for everybody listening, who's saying, How do I go in and really start to rejuvenate this culture around my mission? But also, how do I communicate, keep communication lines open? And how do I really get into the heart of the matter? And one tip that I would give out, and this is a total working smarter, not harder solution is focus on telling the story of impact. If you are focused on impact, and I promise this has a correlation to culture, it's going to require you to go out and ask a lot of questions. And listen to the answers from many different stakeholders from your donors.
• 23:42
  Becky Endicott: This could be your program team, your staff, your volunteers, your beneficiaries, people in your community, you get the double benefit of getting the story of mission delivery, how people are interpreting your brand, how they're interacting with it. Plus, you have stories to share with each of those different groups, what we're hearing from our volunteers is x, what we're hearing from our donors is y, and it's leading us to believe that we have an opportunity over here or that we're missing the mark over here, this really helps underscore the importance of the collective and how we need every single one of those groups pouring into not only the story, but they're a part of the culture that we're building. So I think that if you are really intent on going into this journey, it can serve you in many, many, many reasons. And I don't even think this is just on the leader to unpack, I think this is very much a team effort.
• 24:36
  Becky Endicott: And so maybe you have like a culture team that you can pull together comprised of these different audiences and what they're hearing, it would be really cool to take this grassroots and just find a way to lift the voices and cobuild the thing we want to see within our organizations.
• 24:55
  Jonathan McCoy: So good. So if I hope this conversation is leading you into thinking that this applies to you, whether you're a small shop, or whether you're part of a team that is a huge organization, like this conversations for all we tone set with just how this is applied with our own We Are For Good right here. But you really think about it through the lens of what are the layers that are of people experiencing the culture that is being created, and why this is so important. So really aligning your mindset around. It's not just our internal team, because that's what we often just default to.
• 25:26
  Jonathan McCoy: It's your donors. It's your volunteers. It's your lurkers that Becky just said on social media, and everywhere so this is why this is so critical, especially as we encourage you to be building digital online community where people are engaging and interacting with you as a brand and organization all the time, even when we're all sleeping, you know. So this stuff is so really critically important. I'd love to round it out by just lifting a few organizations, and we've named dropped a few as we started here, but I'll just kind of list one of my favorites. And this really came up as one of my favorite episodes of the whole last season. But Global Citizen Year is an organization you've got to get to now. And we had Abby Falik on the podcast, and her entire episode, while not about culture, if you go back and listen, and we'll link up the show, in the show notes, the episode to go find it. If you listen to how she talks as a leader, you know that the culture that is represented at that organization is going to be magnetic. And what I love about the way that she shows up as a leader is that she is very humble, and she knows what her place is and where she hires and trust people all around her. And I think that idea of trust and transferring trust to people on your team allows your mission to really blossom and grow. I mean, if you have aspirations for your organization to grow, you have to bring in people that are trusted, that you can trust that you can grow from. And so as I go back and listen to that, I remember thinking in my head men, Abby, like is so good at this, like her team has to just be dynamic. And I literally am googling during the interview, which I sometimes do to just like, understand what's happening. And they were literally listed as the top place to work in the entire country by Outdoor Magazine last year, which I'm like, what nonprofit brands like that, you know, and so it's like, they're living that out loud. And it starts with just how the leader shows up and so the leader does have a disproportional ability to affect how people feel and how people the psychological safety of an organization and all of that. And so go back and listen to the episode I think you'll get inspired like I was just how to show up differently.
• 27:36
  Becky Endicott: A couple more that we want to throw out if you want to go check out some of these organizations. We think the Adventure Project does an outstanding job Becky Straw over there, Habitat for Humanity has a great culture. And they've so many entry points for the ways that people can come in, in terms of volunteering or providing resources or muscle or crowdfunding. I think there's this fantastic, they're great to their employees. I think another couple examples. We mentioned Hope for Haiti, I think Stop Soldier Suicide is an awesome culture we've heard about they're such kind fans of we're for good. But I think their leader, Crystal, she takes a lot of the conversations that we have on the podcast, and she takes into her staff. And she socializes and gets their voices and talks about how these different mindsets or these projects are affecting their work and how they could do it better. I mean, what a great way to build culture. And her staff loves her. I mean, that is an amazing organization to go look at its culture. And then naturally, we got to give another shout out to Hope for Haiti. But even our friends over at Simple Modern, you know, we had a great episode with their CEO. And these are the insulated drinkware cups, what they do to show up not only just for their employees, but their customers, their vendors, their community is so generous, that it has, again, to your point, Jon, that magnetic feelings. So go check those out. We've linked them all up in the show notes if you want to go back and listen to some of those.
• 29:07
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, so one last pro tip. This comes from Ted Vaughan, who was you know, we've referenced multiple times in today's show. But speaking directly to the leaders, He cast out this thought that, you know, a lot of leaders assume that people are being honest with you. And let's hope that people are right. But honestly, the higher up you move, the more diluted your perspective of what's really happening just becomes part of it. So you have to figure out how to build a bridge down to the lowest person to get data. So the more senior you are in the organization, the more time you need to invest in culture shaping, then you do just some specific skill competency or something like that. And I love that because really prioritizing this putting time, putting budget, putting thought power into how to making this a vibrant place is something that all leaders need to be doing. And I feel really like exposed that I need to do that as a leader. So I hope this is kind of meeting you in the moment today and that you can apply this for whatever, you know, mission that you're chasing.
• 30:10
  Becky Endicott: So thank you for this amazing question. Rachel.
• 30:12
  Becky Endicott: We have loved diving into this topic as always, and I think it's important to talk about it through the lens of that small shop. So hope you all got a lot of help and direction out of it.
• 30:22
  Becky Endicott: Of course, you know, we can't let you go without curating up some resources for you. So we have put together a six part playlist on building culture, but tune back in because we're We're gonna be diving into small shop discussions part two next Friday with another question from Rachel.
• 30:41
  Jonathan McCoy: So thanks so much friends for being here.
• 30:43
  Becky Endicott: Rooting for you.
• 30:46
  Julie Confer: Hey, friends, thanks so much for being here.
• 30:47
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• 31:18
  Julie Confer: Thanks friends. I'm our producer Julie Confer and our theme song is Sunray by Remy Borsboom.