Latest / Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh / Exploring the State of Education in Nigeria

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Exploring the State of Education in Nigeria · Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh

0:37
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Chatting with the Experts, the
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TV show where I, the host, talk to you.
0:44
Bring to you amazing women from Africa and the Caribbean.
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Every week when my guests come on, they talk about something that I know
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is not just interesting to me, but it's also interesting to you, the
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listeners and the viewers, but even more importantly, at the end of the show,
1:03
you would have learned something new.
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You would have been inspired or educated on something completely different.
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My guest today is Sade Marriott, and Sade is the director of Banana Island
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School, and she is a fellow podcast host of Banana Island Living Podcast.
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Welcome to the show.
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Hello, Paula.
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How are you?
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I am great.
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Better still that you're here.
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Oh, you say all the right things, so yeah, thank you.
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So today, as I said, she's the Director of Banana Island School in Lagos.
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And so today we're going to be talking about the state of education in Nigeria.
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You're the expert on this.
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Oh, please don't give me that top belly because I'm about to fail
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spectacularly when you say that, expert.
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I mean, I do a podcast with another educationist called the Sade.
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So it's Sade and Sade on education, but it's, we're pretty just frothy
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stuff and just whatever's happening, topical stuff on education in Nigeria.
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But yeah, nothing deep or too intellectual.
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I'm sure you...
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I know you're being modest.
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I'm, I haven't seen or heard.
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I wish I was actually.
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I wish I was.
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I'm being modest, but with plenty to be modest about.
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Well, considering you're the director of the school, you must
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know something about education.
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Tell me how you got into that in the first place.
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Well, it is the usual boring story.
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My mother was one of the first Montessori teachers in Nigeria, and
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she started a school, the Montessori school, and with an amazing nursery.
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But we lived on the school site and I swore to myself I'd never ever go into
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education because it's such hard work.
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We never had any holidays because we were always studying or something.
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And so I totally refused to do education.
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I went and did law and did a master's.
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I did an MBA.
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And I thought, when you're as bad a lawyer as I was, when you start skim reading
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contracts, you know you should get out of there before you do some real damage.
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So , I thought what I ever really enjoyed was just teaching children to read.
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Mm-Hmm.
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I thought I'd just go and learn how to teach children to read.
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And I got into it.
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I really enjoyed it.
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And yeah, fast forward a few career cul-de-sacs.
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Here I am.
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There you are.
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So when you went back to school to, as you said, your
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interest was there for children.
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Did you do that in Nigeria?
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Did you do it in the UK?
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Where did you do it?
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No, I actually did it in the...
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I was working in the UK then.
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I was an education solicitor, education and employment solicitor in a local
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authority education department.
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And then I saw, gosh, you know, this could be so much better.
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It was in a particularly challenging borough.
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I lived miles away.
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I used to commute into London to Hackney, which was where I went.
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Oh, okay.
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And I thought, good heavens, this is how people go to school here.
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Then in Nigeria, we don't have half these facilities.
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Most of the problems were children not achieving and I just saw the problems
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really started in primary school.
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So I went and did a PGCE at Canterbury Christ Church University.
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I could still work because I was doing a modular PGCE where you work
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at home and then you go weekends.
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I did this over a couple of years and then you do your placements at the school.
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So I did three placements.
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Two at state schools and one at prep school because I've only ever really known
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private education but I wanted to see what it was like to be in public education and
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it was really quite eye opening and yeah and I thought I could make a lot more
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impact in Nigeria where it was needed.
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I mean it was useful to have learned in England.
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And how they do it and see what people think where the goals was, the gold
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standard, which was maybe bronze standard.
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Not quite.
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I went from the really high achieving schools to those that
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were not so high achieving.
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So I got the full range of the spectrum to a prep school that was
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pretty smart to one that wasn't.
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I saw what worked and what didn't work.
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And what fascinated me and what I wrote my paper on was that
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tension between creativity and accountability in education.
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Can you have creativity and can you also have academic rigor?
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And my argument was that the two are not mutually exclusive.
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There's no reason if you've got a passionate teacher with great training
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and good pedagogical pinning, there's no reason why you can't do that.
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It just takes a little bit more work.
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But once you get the children engaged and the teacher has the passion, you
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can be creative, but you can demand high accountability from the teachers.
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And I know middle class children invariably do well, but that,
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you know, doing exams and doing tracking and assessments is
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really useful for the children who don't have the support at home.
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Because you can't assume that everybody will be okay.
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So how do you measure if, I mean, we can't, we can trust
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teachers and I do trust teachers.
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I know most of them mean well, you know, you can teach the same
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group of children exactly the same thing and have different outcomes.
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So if you don't track and you don't assess, you don't
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know where they need support.
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It's not necessarily testing the staff.
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It's testing what the children have actually managed to get out of it.
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What is the value added?
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So yeah, that was what it did for me.
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Yeah.
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And so then with all of that.
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I hope I haven't bored you too much.
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Have I bored you?
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Not at all.
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Have you put that meaning in?
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Normally I stick that.
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Just checking in.
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Cause I get, when I start waxing lyrical, I get carried away.
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But it also shows your passion.
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It also shows you're authentic.
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It also shows that there's interest in what you're doing because it
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could just be purely academic in the sense it could just be a job.
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But listening to you, I can see it was more than a job.
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It was something.
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If I wanted just a job, I'd stick to law.
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I was even a magistrate in the UK for crying out loud.
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But it was like every day was a chore getting up.
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But when you teach children, especially when you see that light come into their
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eyes, when they start decoding and decoding with meaning, you just see,
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gosh, you can actually make a difference in this child's outcomes later on.
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And you know,
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yeah
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what you're saying is so relevant because sometimes we forget that
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these children are our future.
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These children are the next generation.
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These children are the ones who are going to go ahead of us.
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And what we learn, especially at the elementary level, is what follows
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them for the rest of their lives.
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I think people underestimate the importance of primary education.
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Because now when I'm looking at CVs, and I'm looking at this degree and
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this guy cannot, you get the split infinitive, you get bad punctuation,
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even with Grammarly, they still get bad punctuation, you get, and I'm
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thinking, these are things that they wouldn't correct in secondary school.
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It's in primary that you know where you learn subject and predative,
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and comparative, and all those things, the verb, the adjectives,
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those are taught in primary.
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And just how to write a letter.
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Which, maybe ChatGPT will do it for you now, but you still need to be able
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to correct it and make it your own.
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Um, and shorten things, and so I start looking, I know it sounds a bit
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anal, but I start looking at primary education in a bit more detail to
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see, and if you get bad pronunciation, or enunciation, or bad spellings.
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Which again, the computer can do for you, but then are you doing American
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spelling or, and it's all about context.
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So how do you even correct what you see on the computer?
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So yeah, primary education is the big thing for me.
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So this is the director, Banana Allen Livins.
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I'm sticking to the podcast.
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I'm sticking to banana Allen Livins.
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The podcast is just the plaything of an idle hour, you know.
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The real work is done at the school, but the play, the podcast, I just
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thought, you know, I need to get a life.
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Instead of just all about education, all about teaching, I need to
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do something slightly different.
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So yeah.
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But the podcast has done some, I listened to the one with the
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children and oh, it touched my heart.
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That was interesting.
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You forget what those kids know and what they think and as really, that
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was educational for me as well.
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Cause I see them, but I, you don't really get to get that sort of treat
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them like grown ups and let them tell you what they're thinking.
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So yeah, it was interesting.
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Yes, it's always so great to hear kids perspectives, isn't it?
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Mmm, yeah.
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So, coming back to you, okay, so you were in England and then you decided you wanted
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to give back to our country, Nigeria.
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I had a rush of blood to the head.
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Which has paid off for many people.
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Yeah, my child is, my cost center number three went off to boarding school.
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So I thought, oh, freedom, yes.
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Let me, let me.
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So, you know, I was the touchdown mum for how many years doing the...
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my kid's school was miles away from home because I was looking
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for the best school for this child.
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I'll never do that again, driving miles just to go to the best school.
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So I did that for how many years straight, you know.
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And, once she got off to boarding school, she was begging to go to boarding school.
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She was tired of being at home with all the others.
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She was like the last of the hackers and everybody had left home except her.
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Okay.
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She was lonely and we lived you know, on a farm and it wasn't great.
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So she said, help, let me out of here.
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So she left and I thought, freedom, let me go and do, you know, let me
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go and try something in Nigeria.
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So yeah, that was interesting.
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It was character building.
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Here we are.
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How many years ago was that?
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About 10, 11 years ago.
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Yeah, 10 years ago.
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Well, you've done a good job.
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I mean, I tried to start it without actually going myself to employ people
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from afar, but it didn't quite work out.
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That was pre COVID,
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in the UK in here.
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It was pre COVID, yes.
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Thank God it was pre COVID.
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Can you imagine trying to do something in COVID?
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I know.
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Mm.
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So God was preparing you for that.
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So now, but I left Nigeria in the 80s.
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And so whenever I think about education, I age myself by, you know, I talk
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about primary school, I talk about form five and some of my nieces and
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so look at me with a strange look.
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They're like, Auntie, what are you talking about?
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So yeah.
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So you come back to Nigeria and you started this school from scratch.
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Yeah.
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I mean, basically build a site and stuff.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I'm a director.
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I had support, but yeah, and I was involved from far away and then I
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came back to try and yeah, work there.
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I thought I could do it remotely, but yeah, it wasn't easy.
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I didn't realize that wasn't going to be the thing.
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So Probably not, yes.
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How is that going for you?
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I know it's successful, but as I said, I'm always looking at education from
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Nigeria, primarily from my understanding when I lived there in myself.
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So what's the state of education now in Nigeria?
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We're talking about I know your school is private, so can you talk a little
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bit about the transition you've seen?
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Funny enough, my co podcaster on Sade and Sade on Education,
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that's what we try to do.
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She's from a state background.
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Okay.
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She was a commissioner for education in Lagos State, so she really had her finger
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on the pulse of public school education, and I speak from a private school prism.
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So, Yeah, east shall be east and west shall be west, and ne'er the
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twain shall meet, as they say.
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We thought we could meet and get a perspective on this.
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And, you know, there's some really good education in Nigeria.
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I was teaching in London, not that long ago, actually, because I, having come
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here, I did go back and did some more further training and then some placement
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in school just to get more current.
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And what I noticed is children that come from Nigeria, they do incredibly well.
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They're usually strips ahead.
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They're better, they're ready to, they're ready to learn.
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They're not faffing around.
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And then about the second or third term,
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without strong parental input or good or high expectations from the teachers.
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They tend to slip back.
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From Nigeria?
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And Nigeria and West Africa actually.
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Mm.
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'cause we, a lot of the children come from very strong family backgrounds at home.
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Mm-Hmm.
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With great support system, you can't really misbehave
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in class and get away with.
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That's what I mean.
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That's why I, that question was
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your who born you?
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Who is your father?
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Yeah.
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Your mother, and you're going back and then
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Yeah.
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But then when you get there, they tend to say, oh, I can get away with
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this, or I can get away with that.
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And maybe the teachers don't have high expectations.
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So, I mean, children will rise to whatever occasion you put them in.
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When I looked at the statistics in England years ago, when they were doing the
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London Challenges stuff, African children were one of the best performers and the
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white, lower class or working class, white, lower class, working class children
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were the least performing demographics.
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When they get to secondary school, that changes.
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And we don't know what happens there.
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So what is it?
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These are children who are high achieving.
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Is it that, is it the system?
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Is it lower expectations?
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They start getting into trouble.
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They start getting more suspensions, you know, so there's a lot to unpack
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there, which I don't want to go in.
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But in Nigeria, up until the 90s, I think the education here,
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most of the people doing so well abroad, they come from Nigeria.
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Yeah.
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All these top doctors and stuff.
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People used to come here to look for our universities.
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I mean, say what you will.
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These were one of the top performing people, immigrants, wherever you go.
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Yes.
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So, hey, what, it can't be that bad, it couldn't have been that bad.
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Now I know, because the system has been decimated, we still have incredible
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primary schools, incredible secondary schools, if you can afford them.
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The university system has been so decimated that when you don't have
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middle class or working class people sending their children, their first
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thought is to get their children abroad.
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How are you going to raise the standards?
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Um, yeah, and it's, we need to have what we have, what we had during COVID
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when people realized they couldn't go abroad for medical treatment.
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Post COVID, the amount of really good hospitals that
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have come up in Nigeria, Okay.
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And I've seen people coming from the U.
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S.
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to come to medical tourism in Nigeria now.
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I went to hospital last week, and So impressive.
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I'm never going back to England to go and be waiting on the NHS
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again in one day with cheap HMO.
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So it really worked a 300, 000 a year.
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You can't even that's like two months HMO and it covers everything.
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You get medication and the equipment was top of the line.
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In Nigeria?
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In Nigeria.
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Then I went to Luce, to the dentists to get my x rays.
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They had top of the line x rays.
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I had my results immediately.
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They gave it to me.
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And I thought, gosh, if you unfetter these institutions from government palaver, they
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will do well because the people are smart.
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People in Nigeria are smart.
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Whether it's for crookery or for good, they will do well.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I have children in my school, they're reading at age three.
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If you put it to them, they will go, every child goes at their level.
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I find children who are able, if you facilitate them, they'll fly.
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If they're not, they won't fly.
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Challenged, they start having behavior issues.
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Yes.
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That's so true.
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If you challenge the children, they'll rise to any occasion
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as long as they're having fun.
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As long as it's not by force.
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As long as they, they have that spark in their eyes when they come in the
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morning and they're bounding in, Hey, what, what are we doing today?
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You know, you got, they just ready.
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But if they're dragging their feet and everything, it's a chore.
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Maybe you need to look at where you're delivering that.
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But even in the state schools here, people, the children
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are desperate to learn.
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You have a class, I went to KC one time and they had 200 in a class.
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200?
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200.
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It might be better now, but this was a few years ago.
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I don't know what it's like now.
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But you know, these kids were ready.
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They were ready.
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Yes, that's what I always say.
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There's a hunger.
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There was always hunger in Nigeria for education.
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Education.
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The local women who are selling by the roadside.
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Yes.
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Are making money to send their children to school.
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To send their children to school.
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Yep.
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And then the child will come home and they'll pay for lesson teacher again.
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Yes.
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Do you know?
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Yes.
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Just goes to show.
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So yeah, we just need an enabling environment.
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We just need an enabling environment.
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Yeah.
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I mean, coming from a private school, and this is a segue, but coming from
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a private school background, what do you call a champagne socialist?
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I genuinely believe.
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That all these, there shouldn't be, it shouldn't be, I don't think you can stop,
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I don't think you should stop people, but it really shouldn't be a default position
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to send our kids abroad, because I don't see what value added it is to the society.
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And certainly the government should not be subsidizing anybody going abroad to study.
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I don't think so.
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These kids who have the privilege and the money to go
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abroad, I don't even come back.
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So what's the point?
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Okay.
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We're having some internet problems here.
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Fine.
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All right.
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Yeah.
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I'm burning down the bridge that brought me across, as they say.
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But, you're talking truth.
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You're talking truth.
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Let me look at our people.
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We are very resourceful.
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As you said, we have that hunger for education is there.
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The competitive spirit to want to do well, to see someone and say, ah,
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my child would do better than me.
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That's always been our culture.
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And so they don't envy people who do well.
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They just say, ah, with a fair wind behind my back and God
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on my side, I will be there.
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It's favor.
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It is God's favor.
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Yes, but they don't have problem with you doing well.
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They don't have a problem with anybody doing well or doing better than them.
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They just wanna surpass that person or meet that person.
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And there's a deep understanding that it takes hard work.
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To think that we don't even say studying.
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We say, read, go and read your book.
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Go and read your book.
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Yes.
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I mean, remember that song back time?
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Yeah, I do.
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You know, from way back then, you know, if you read your book,
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your shoes will be going koko.
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That means you'll be walking to read your book.
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Your shoe will just be dragging on the floor.
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And that's what you start out with.
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So it's always been that hunger.
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Even more than, than people who brought us the Western education, I think.
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Yeah, of course, because as I told my children, I said, you saw it.
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You just had to leave your house and drive down the street and you knew
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the difference between whether you read your book or when you didn't.
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Because you will be driving in the car and you see, not that there's
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anything wrong with someone selling on the street and peeling orange,
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but you knew the difference was education and it was ingrained in
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having access to it.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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So coming back to you and your passion and your love for what you do.
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You said something that really touched me again.
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You said the children come to school and you see the spark in
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their eyes and they want to learn.
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We talk about your school now, so.
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Yeah, but in other schools as well, like I said, Nigerian children want to learn.
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There's a hunger.
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I mean, we employ in, I think this year we've got like three youth
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coppers or four youth coppers who are doing the national service with us.
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It's so lovely to see the cynicism has not been dragged into them.
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They're still quite, you know, idealistic and they like to see somewhere
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where they can actually be useful.
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I have one that was supposed to go for an operation and she was postponing and
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we're all begging her, don't postpone it.
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She said, Oh, these children, we want, you know, we're doing our assessments.
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I want us to make sure that all of us, all the children pass
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that assessment before I go.
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And we said, no, go, we'll be fine.
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They really do care.
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And there are people here who really they like to see that
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they're making a difference.
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If the society worked, The sky's the limit.
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It's just so depressing and soul destroying to see such genuineness,
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such passion, such enthusiasm, such hunger being crushed.
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Being crushed.
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Yeah.
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And that's one of the things you learn quite quickly in Africa.
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Let me speak about Nigeria.
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It's from the sublime to the ridiculous.
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You see people who are so happy with so little.
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Yeah.
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And it sort of gives you your perspective that I better shut
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up if I'm complaining, you know.
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Yes.
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I am super privileged.
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And on the other scale, you, you, your psyche does get brutalized a bit because
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you get used to seeing poverty and you see people and the inequalities and so on.
22:49
So it's to wake up and make sure , you give yourself that talking to, that
22:53
you don't become that person who is inert to other people's situations.
22:58
Yes.
22:58
And like, when I go abroad every time, cause I'm, I live
23:02
half in the UK and half here.
23:04
I said the first week when I'm back, I'm so nice to my staff.
23:08
Thank you so much.
23:10
So, you've cleaned that room.
23:12
Oh, I'm so grateful.
23:13
And then?
23:15
And then after two months, I said, Ah, did you see that?
23:21
You have to catch yourself.
23:22
Stop it.
23:23
So you have to constantly give yourself that.
23:27
Talking to, and just not be that ghastly person who takes everything for granted.
23:34
I sometimes wonder if it's not cultural too.
23:36
We've been brought up to say, ah, beg, shut up.
23:39
Because, we are a society of respect where age matters.
23:42
So everyone is kind of looking, okay, I'm older than you, so you're raising your
23:47
shoulders, you know, that sort of thing.
23:48
And so sometimes I wonder if we feel that by talking nicely.
23:53
Oh, I appreciate you.
23:55
If we are not making, thinking that we're making ourselves soft, not relevant.
24:00
That's a theory that I have.
24:01
Not a theory per se, but it's a question I've asked myself over and
24:05
over that if we can learn how to say the same thing, it's not what you say,
24:12
it's how you say it, but that start making a difference in leadership.
24:18
Society is changing, but younger people will not take it.
24:22
Even with all this senior, they'll say, it's a toxic environment.
24:25
I'm off.
24:25
Even if they don't have another job, they're going, they will teach you, they
24:29
will teach you whether you like it or not.
24:31
If you want to keep your staff, you have to be more empathetic.
24:34
All that young girl, if I'm older than you, when we were there, we
24:37
didn't talk to our elders like that.
24:39
Because you will have nobody, you wake up for a good calm day and
24:42
you'll be doing the work by yourself.
24:44
It's internet.
24:48
They'll just go home and sit down and work and go on Tik Tok.
24:52
They don't care.
24:52
They don't have any money.
24:53
They have no job.
24:54
You know, somebody will pay their bills.
24:57
They'll be okay.
24:58
But I think And, you know, I think in Nigeria and in Africa now, as we get
25:05
more westernized, for good or ill, people are less resilient and more
25:14
apt to take offense.
25:15
Like in those days, everybody said, shut up Jo, and who cared?
25:19
It wasn't a big deal.
25:20
The context was, it wasn't, the context was not to put you down or anything.
25:25
It was like joshing, it's banter.
25:27
You go to the market, they abuse you, you abuse them in the back, you know,
25:31
nobody, it wasn't like, it wasn't personal and, and you know, every older person
25:38
would say, ah, who is your mother?
25:40
Kneel down there!
25:41
I know.
25:41
You didn't think that person was toxic.
25:43
You just thought, auntie, you two, you go, go back, auntie, you should forgive me.
25:47
What is it?
25:47
What have I done?
25:48
So the two of you will laugh at each other and it wasn't a big deal.
25:53
So the, I think it was a more healthy relationship.
25:56
There was a lot of respect, but then, cause you know, there
25:58
was love underlying everything.
26:01
Now you can't take that for granted.
26:03
In fact, now you assume people mean bad stuff, even when they don't.
26:08
Not helped by the pastor who says somebody is doing you or somebody is saying to you.
26:13
It's stoking culture wars, stoking racist wars, stoking envy, stoking malice.
26:20
Before, even if somebody is doing you, you say, Hey, all you people
26:23
doing me, or, you know, you just speak it out there and you let it go.
26:28
You don't need to go into therapy.
26:31
You know, so the pros and cons of everything, because as I said, internet,
26:36
which you agreed with me has opened up the windows to so much good, but a lot of bad
26:42
too, because when you don't know what you don't know, you accept what you, right?
26:45
True.
26:45
But now, as you said, there's so much more awareness of my feelings are hurt.
26:52
Yeah, my feelings are hurt.
26:53
Yeah.
26:54
Even if the person and because people are not really dealing one to one so much.
27:00
It's all filtered, either through email or text or so the nuance
27:06
of the thought behind that text, it might come out really poor.
27:10
Yeah.
27:10
Because you didn't articulate well.
27:12
So the person goes off and you get cross because they went off and
27:17
then you don't talk to each other.
27:18
Then it becomes my new favorite word, toxic.
27:24
So yeah, it's all.
27:26
And then we also do a lot of PSHE and PSED in with children now who's a bully.
27:35
We're becoming more aware of bullying, but we're telling them, okay, somebody does
27:40
something to you once is not bullying.
27:44
It's an incident.
27:47
It's when it becomes consistent or a habit, or more than
27:50
once, or then it's bullying.
27:53
So you have to talk to that person, show them your boundaries, whatever it is, and
28:00
then we teach them who's an upstander, who's a bystander, who's, you know.
28:03
So we do all that role play, so they can't, you don't necessarily
28:06
take offense immediately.
28:08
And when they're like age Five, six, they start telling on each other.
28:12
Oh, he touched me.
28:13
Oh, he pushed me.
28:14
Oh, did you do it on purpose?
28:16
Did he do it on purpose?
28:17
Were you hurt?
28:18
If you were not hurt.
28:20
It's not the end of the world.
28:21
Tell him you don't like it and move on.
28:23
You have to teach them resilience as well.
28:25
Not everything you the teacher must go off on.
28:28
And, I see that a lot.
28:30
I saw it a lot in the UK where things are blown out of proportion,
28:33
especially with black boys.
28:36
You know, sometimes they don't know how to navigate friendships or trying
28:40
to find their space within a group.
28:44
So they act up a bit.
28:46
But with just coming from a different prism or there's mutual suspicion and then
28:52
it becomes a self perpetuating prophecy.
28:54
And also I feel sometimes there's not much, you know, you have
28:58
to teach cultural awareness.
29:00
And now that we have more immigration into spaces that were not typically
29:05
as integrated, you've got to teach, you've got to educate
29:09
the educators on what to expect.
29:12
Black boys, unfortunately, have been given the negative stigma, yeah,
29:18
they've been labeled in a negative way, and they're just being boys.
29:22
So
29:23
they're more likely to see there being boys as aggression.
29:26
As aggression.
29:27
Any other it's just boys, then they start thinking, Oh, they're picking on me.
29:31
Anyway, I might as well be aggressive.
29:33
So it's a vicious cycle.
29:36
It is a vicious cycle, but then also the culture of low expectations.
29:42
Yes.
29:42
A lot of them, especially coming from Nigeria, they're bright and if
29:46
they're not bright, they're brighter than the ones who were there.
29:49
Yeah.
29:50
You know?
29:51
And they've been challenged a lot.
29:52
But I think I expect them not to be.
29:54
Yeah.
29:55
So there was one particular boy and I looked at him, he had a Nigerian
30:02
surname, but I think the mother was from the West Indies or something and he
30:06
wasn't achieving as much as we thought.
30:10
I thought he should be, and I came in on the second term to that school.
30:14
So I called his parents, I said, this is off the record, you are, this boy and
30:17
I are going to wear the same trouser.
30:22
You are a Nigerian man, and your son is not reading?
30:25
Are you kidding me?
30:26
What They said, Oh, he's delayed this.
30:29
I said, yes, but I've tested him.
30:32
I've tested him.
30:32
The first thing you want him to do as soon as he enters that class,
30:35
if he doesn't say good morning, he goes out and comes back in.
30:38
So you show him what you expect of him.
30:40
And I said, if he doesn't, just in case he comes back home and says, I'm
30:43
picking on him, I'm not picking on him.
30:46
Break time, he's going to go on, going to have his lunch and come
30:49
back and he's going to work with me.
30:50
If he doesn't finish that work within the allotted time, he and
30:54
I are going to miss our break.
30:55
He will eat.
30:56
He will play five minutes and then we'll go back and do the work.
30:59
By the time we did this for two weeks, boy was finishing his work at the time.
31:04
The SENCo wasn't happy because she said, Oh, you know, you're a bit hard on him.
31:08
I said, yes, but don't you think life would be hard on him if he leaves
31:12
here without achieving anything?
31:14
A black male child not being able to read.
31:18
Where is he gonna go?
31:19
Yes.
31:19
But what is he gonna do?
31:21
It'll be, he'll be excluded from school by the time he's in year six.
31:25
Absolutely.
31:25
So I see what you mean.
31:27
But I've squared it with his parents and they're happy with it.
31:29
I'm gonna give him homework every day.
31:32
So, and I want it signed.
31:34
So you have to take interest in the children.
31:39
That's so changing in the rhetoric.
31:40
Well, I think it's just to let the child know that you're on his case.
31:44
You care deeply.
31:45
Once children know you care, even when you're hard on them, they take it.
31:51
If they think you don't like them.
31:53
Right.
31:55
That is so true.
31:56
It's hard.
31:58
The work just gets harder.
31:59
That's so true.
32:01
And it's to convince the parents that look, You come in, you
32:04
have problems with me, fine.
32:05
I'm sure I'm not the best teacher in the world, honestly.
32:09
But, before we have that discussion or it degenerates, let's agree
32:14
that we're on the same side.
32:16
We're on the side of the child.
32:17
I'm not on your side.
32:18
You're not on my side.
32:19
We're on the side of that child.
32:20
If we start with that prism, we're good.
32:24
Any discussion we have after can only come with positive outcomes for that child.
32:29
That's so true.
32:30
And so that brings me to a question I have, coming back to your school
32:33
now, coming back to Nigeria.
32:34
Now, what provisions do they have, if any?
32:37
And I'm not sure when I say if any, But what I want to ask is, do you have
32:41
any, like special needs, any program for special needs in your school, or
32:46
if not your school, are you seeing more of that being, done in Nigeria?
32:51
In Lagos?
32:52
Oh yeah, I mean, I don't know if it's just that, I don't know what's
32:55
happening, but there's a huge, and I say huge, relative to what we had before.
33:01
Number of children now with special needs.
33:04
People are saying it's post COVID.
33:06
People are saying all sorts of things.
33:08
I don't know what.
33:09
Delayed speech, neurodivergent.
33:15
Children who are just not ready to learn, no matter what age they are.
33:20
So we're having a huge amount of speech therapy.
33:23
We're having, you name it, we're doing that.
33:26
And we're breaking it down and I mean we have children as young as 15 months.
33:31
We're doing physical therapy.
33:32
15 months!
33:33
Like walking on, you know, We get them to start walking on, on, on a beam,
33:37
just balancing basic things like that.
33:40
And, using pegs to, there's no strength in their hands.
33:43
We call it iPad fingers.
33:45
They can't separate the digits, you know?
33:47
So you're playing, you're playing games like Peter pointer, Peter pointer.
33:51
Where are you to be told to be tall?
33:54
Where are you?
33:55
Ruby ring, ruby ring.
33:57
Where are you at?
33:58
Uh, Tommy thumb, Tommy thumb.
34:00
Where are you?
34:01
And they're struggling to do that.
34:03
So it's an uphill task, but we find that if we put these things in
34:12
place that young, by the time they get to age four, they're ready.
34:17
They're ready.
34:18
And the parents have to work along with us.
34:20
The idea is to make it interesting and make it fun.
34:22
You make it into a song because they remember things with songs more and
34:25
you know, taking off their shoes is one of their early learning goals.
34:29
Can you take it off?
34:29
Can you put it back on?
34:30
Can you...
34:32
just give them tools?
34:33
Keep them busy.
34:34
They have to take their own bags no matter how young they are.
34:37
They have to unzip it themselves.
34:38
They have to use their table mats.
34:39
Go and get their table mats.
34:40
Put it on the table.
34:41
Set the table.
34:42
Zip it up.
34:43
Tidy up.
34:44
Put their rubbish in the bin.
34:45
You know, they forget they're crying by the time they do all that.
34:50
And they see their mates doing it too, I guess.
34:52
Yeah, and they tidy up.
34:53
They tidy up.
34:54
They learn where things belong.
34:56
They just like being busy and it just becomes routine.
34:59
So behavior issues are a lot less.
35:01
And they say, Oh, how do you come?
35:02
They don't listen to me at home.
35:03
They listen because there's consistency.
35:06
And they see everybody else doing it and that's the way it's done.
35:09
Yes.
35:09
With Lullablove, because, and you don't do an activity for too long if you see
35:14
they're getting bored, there's a choice.
35:16
And we read to them every day because again, vocabulary.
35:19
If they have the vocabulary and they're speaking, there's less frustration
35:23
and there's less behavior issues.
35:25
Yeah.
35:25
So we have a target of doing five keywords every week.
35:28
That we'll reinforce and reinforce and reinforce.
35:31
And those keywords will go into the books we read.
35:34
Okay.
35:34
The songs we sing, the activities we do.
35:37
So by the end of a 13 week term, just multiple, even if they get two or
35:41
three from each of those times 13, that's a huge bank of vocabulary.
35:46
Yes.
35:46
For an 18 month old or a two year old.
35:49
And that, again, you're laying the building blocks.
35:52
Yep.
35:52
The foundation is strong.
35:55
Yeah.
35:55
Yeah.
35:56
Language is so important.
35:57
Speaking and listening.
35:58
We play a lot of listening games because we find that because of
36:02
visuals, again, with the iPad or the tablets, listening is becoming an issue.
36:07
So we even for adults.
36:09
We don't have videos at all, except when we're doing a particular thing.
36:15
Until they're about five or six.
36:17
They do ICT from age three, but it's to, you know, moving the mouse.
36:20
So we go really old school using the mouse and pressing.
36:23
So they separate the digits again, and then they learn what, where's
36:27
the technology in the home, which one is technology, all of that stuff.
36:31
But under that, it's all, we play sound stories.
36:35
So they have to listen to the stories and you ask questions.
36:38
And they said, how many times did the chicken lay an egg?
36:41
Whoop.
36:42
They have to count how many they have to listen and tell you, oh, the chicken
36:45
laid three eggs and they go, whoop, whoop, how many eggs did that lay?
36:50
Laid two eggs.
36:50
So you are forcing them to listen and the more they're listening,
36:54
the more they're calmer.
36:55
And then they go for listening walks where they listen to sounds in the
36:58
environment and we come back and say, oh, what sound did you listen?
37:00
Are you hear?
37:01
I heard okada.
37:04
Which is relevant answer.
37:07
I said, which one came first?
37:09
It's very important, again, listening to sounds and in the order in which, and
37:14
we know the things like body percussion, when they're clapping, you know, when
37:19
you go, it's different from, again, when they're reading, to be able to know
37:26
the order in which sounds are and to repeat it exactly the way they hear it.
37:31
So you put in all those building blocks quite early.
37:35
So when it comes to early reading, early phonics, it just makes life a lot
37:40
easier and they enjoy what they do more.
37:43
And we don't believe in memorizing poetry.
37:46
We still do that.
37:46
I think we're going to have to do a part two of this because I am
37:51
so fascinated by all what you're saying and all what you're doing.
37:55
That, oh my gosh, I'm almost like, okay, should we end this now?
37:59
I mean, I tried to make this 30 minutes, but we're going to have to do a part
38:04
two because I've learned so much.
38:07
I mean, the main topic was what is the state of education in Nigeria,
38:11
but now you've blown me away.
38:12
I think education in Nigeria is great.
38:14
I really do think you just have to be discerning and know what you want
38:19
and what is works for your child.
38:20
It's not all bells and whistles.
38:22
You won't see all the fantastic tennis courts, but in terms of core learning,
38:27
which is important
38:29
outcomes for the children.
38:30
I mean, if you're well off enough, you can do all those things outside of school.
38:34
We have good weather.
38:35
The children go out in all weathers, whether it's raining or sunny,
38:38
there's no such thing as, you know.
38:40
When it's raining, we make boats.
38:42
We do floating and sinking science.
38:44
All of that.
38:45
So there's no such thing as bad weather.
38:48
There's bad dressing for the weather.
38:50
We're in Africa, for crying out loud, we're very lucky.
38:52
Very lucky.
38:54
Yes.
38:54
There's no reason why we can't use what we have in our environment.
38:58
Absolutely.
39:00
Where were you when I was going to school?
39:03
Probably in my mother's school, laboring under a pot just by name.
39:07
You better read your book, oh.
39:09
Yeah.
39:10
We had to memorize vast tracts of the Bible, remember?
39:15
For your punishment.
39:16
Multiplication.
39:17
You better know.
39:18
12 times 13.
39:19
Yes.
39:19
Times table.
39:20
You better know.
39:21
Times table.
39:21
Yes.
39:22
Yes.
39:23
I remember when I do, there was one punishment I had.
39:26
I had to memorize Psalm 121.
39:29
I will lift up my eyes unto the hills for my help.
39:31
My help coming from the Lord who made heaven and earth.
39:37
But it's stuck in my head.
39:41
But look at it.
39:41
And I remember writing in position when you had to write, if you do something
39:45
wrong, you have to write how many lines?
39:47
Oh, yes.
39:49
Yes.
39:50
You write lines.
39:50
Yeah, but you'd strap three biros together so you can write
39:57
three lines at the same time.
40:01
I think that would have been my youngest sibling.
40:04
I will never be rude again.
40:06
I will never be rude again.
40:08
I will never be rude again.
40:14
Oh, yes.
40:16
Yes.
40:17
But it's been great speaking to you.
40:20
I really have enjoyed this episode.
40:22
So before we go though, you got to tell people where they can find you online.
40:26
I know I introduced you as a podcast host of Banana Island Living Podcast,
40:32
but where else can they find you?
40:34
On your LinkedIn?
40:35
Again, LinkedIn is the place, isn't it?
40:37
I really don't do these LinkedIn as Facebook.
40:42
Linkedin as Facebook doesn't work for me.
40:44
Judge not so that you shall not be judged or whatever it is they say.
40:47
I do not post pictures of my congratulating my daughter on
40:51
winning something or the other.
40:52
But if you've got something work related or whatever you can just message me.
40:57
I don't post often but when I post it's strictly professional.
41:01
But you can reach me on LinkedIn, yeah.
41:03
But I'm not on social media.
41:04
I don't have personal Instagram.
41:06
I don't have personal anything.
41:07
My Banana Island Living has Instagram, but then again, that's not me alone, so...
41:11
That's professional.
41:12
LinkedIn.
41:13
It's all business, yeah.
41:15
I love it.
41:15
I'm not a Facebook person, yeah.
41:17
No, I'm not bugga as they say.
41:18
I'm just lazy.
41:20
These things require commitments and I don't do commitments.
41:23
My attention span is a nanosecond.
41:26
Yeah.
41:26
Boy, that used to be me, but now I can say to you, my viewers,
41:30
you can find me on my website.
41:31
You have a website, don't you?
41:33
I do.
41:34
Yes.
41:35
So in addition, to LinkedIn,
41:37
There's Island School and Banana Island Living.
41:40
You can get me on there?
41:41
Yeah.
41:41
Okay.
41:42
So folks...
41:43
emails.
41:44
Yeah, mmarriott@bananaislandschool.
41:46
com or mmarriottadbananaislandliving.
41:49
com.
41:50
I do answer.
41:51
You do answer.
41:52
So folks, this has been great.
41:54
Hasn't it been great?
41:55
I always bring you the best guests possible from Africa and the Carribean.
41:59
You're so kind.
42:00
And so, yeah.
42:02
You've got great energy, as they say.
42:03
I love it.
42:04
I love the people I meet.
42:05
And I would like to say, I would like to think that they love me
42:09
back, but I really do love you.
42:10
Oh, I sure do.
42:11
I mean, nobody else could have got me to do a video.
42:13
You know how I am.
42:14
I don't really do videos, but yeah, I have a lot of time for Paula.
42:21
You're a star.
42:22
Thank you so much.
42:23
And for you, my viewers, I want to thank you for always tuning in.
42:26
You know where you can find me on my website, which is chattingwiththeexperts.
42:30
com.
42:30
You can find me on LinkedIn, which used to be my main and only social media
42:36
platform, but I've moved on to Instagram.
42:38
Not moved on.
42:38
I am also on Instagram.
42:40
My handle there is at chat_podcast_expert.
42:46
No, it's reversed.
42:47
chat_expert_podcast.
42:51
That was a senior moment.
42:52
Yeah, that was a senior moment, so let me correct it.
42:55
Pop those vitamins, baby.
42:56
Pop those vitamins.
42:57
I do need to take a
43:00
Omega 3, whatever it takes.
43:04
And I'm actually on Facebook now.
43:06
Oh, good.
43:07
Yep, it's taken me years, but I'm fine on facebook.
43:12
Thank you, Sade, for saying yes.
43:16
Thank you very much.
43:17
I really appreciate.
43:18
This has been incredibly good.
43:20
Thank you.
43:21
Thank you.Bye.