Latest / The Salty Pastor / Polarization of America [Ep. 116]
Transcript
- [00:00:00] Doug: It's a call to action to go out and don't be a part of the problem, but do something and don't be afraid. [00:00:16] Jesse: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Salty Pastor Podcast, a podcast dedicated to helping you navigate this life with strength, courage, and confidence. You need more of these qualities. Not less of them. The real question is where do these three qualities come from? They come from your faith. This is why we do the Salty Pastor to help you know, what you believe and why you believe it because only when your faith is strong and you know, what's really going on. Can you see your strength, courage, and confidence grow. My name is Jesse Maher. . I will be your host and we cannot do the Salty Pastor Podcast without the Salty Pastor himself. Dr. Douglas Peake. [00:00:53] Doug: Thank you, Jesse. You're awesome. Well said. Yeah. You know, everything comes from our faith and our goal is to help you grow your faith and the way you grow your faith is, you know, what you believe, why you believe it. Uh, you've worked through the issues yourself and, you know, so yeah. Sense of, of, uh, of confidence because you've worked through them and that's a, that's a very critical, important part, particularly based on, you know, this whole topic that we're talking about. [00:01:24] Jesse: Yes. And we are in the middle of talking about joy, [00:01:28] Doug: Happy times. [00:01:28] Jesse: Joy. How can pursuing joy, get your faith blowing and going, moving and groovin. There's probably some other words that [00:01:37] Doug: Splishin'and a Splashin'. [00:01:40] Jesse: But, uh, it seems to me that like, everyone's pretty unhappy these days, not a lot of joy going around in the world. Um, there's some news events. There's politics. There's the media there's just been, I mean, you know, for those future listeners, hello, future listeners. Yes. Uh, we're in the middle still dealing with COVID at this point in time. So the world has not ended and you're listening. That's where we're at. Right. So yes, people are concerned about COVID or are unhappy with the people that aren't concerned with COVID and vice versa. Aren't taking it seriously or upset with the people that are taking it seriously. Those who are, you know, trying to encourage vaccination. Those people that are getting vaccines are upset with the people that aren't vaccinating, the people that aren't vaccinating or upset with the people that are vaccinated, um, or being, uh, they're upset with the idea of being forced to vaccinate, I guess. Um, and it's just like, I mean, and masks, mask off, and masks upside down. I mean, there's, there's so much going on just with COVID let alone. All of the other things that are happening in our world, that it's just not a lot of joy. [00:02:45] Doug: Not a lot of joy. [00:02:46] Jesse: So when you think about each issue, you kind of have to go two sides. [00:02:51] Doug: Yes. [00:02:51] Jesse: Um, as we've kind of was demonstrating in that analogy, my questions is why is everything such a conflict? Why does it have to be two sides? Why does it have to be my sides? Right. Your side's wrong? Why are we so polarized about politics? COVID. You know, what color underwear you're wearing. I mean, why is it matter and why are so many people unhappy about it? [00:03:09] Doug: Well, it's really interesting because one of the things that, uh, all of the priests and profits of culture, the downstream are all saying, well, it's social media or it's this, or it's that. But in reality, I think it's really important to understand. I want to, I really want to challenge everybody to think about something that maybe you haven't thought about before, and [00:03:28] Jesse: That is what we're here for. [00:03:29] Doug: And that is, this is. Are you completely aware of how Satan propagates evil? You see, Satan is evil. He propagates evil. He's antithetical to what God stands for. So, so he propagates evil. And on one level, Satan is always considered the great tempter, you know, the angel on one shoulder and Satan, the devil, the little red guy on the other shoulder. But what he does is that this, this is true. And what he does is he's kind of. Tempting you to violate your own conscience. Right. [00:04:07] Jesse: Okay. [00:04:07] Doug: Well, but what we see here is that we see people according to their conscience are really convinced that they're right and the other side is wrong. And that, and so what happens is, uh, uh, what they're doing is what Satan is doing is that he is propagating evil, not through tempting people to violate their conscience. But by sewing chaos, that's what he does is he that's the primary way in which he spreads evil. Is by sewing chaos. [00:04:43] Jesse: So not just tempting you to, you know, murder your best friend or something, that's not always the way most of the time you're saying, and this is what's leading to a lot of our unhappiness is he's sewing chaos among Christian relationships. Non-Christian relationships. [00:04:59] Doug: Societies, nations, everything. Yeah. [00:05:03] Jesse: People to basically polarize and then [00:05:05] Doug: Yes, meaning polarized people go back into their own tribes. Their own groups always causes unhappiness in a society. They always do. You know, personally it works kind of like this Satan is going to tempt you to violate your conscience. Now, if you've been following Jesus, then the holy spirit has been modifying and changing your. Conscience right by the change of your values. This is the process of repentance that we talked about last week. So what happens then is. Uh, your values might be misaligned and he steps into that gap and that's where he tempts you. And so God has a certain values. You're holding onto some old values. This is why Paul says to the Ephesians. He says it to the Colossians. Hey, you need to take off the old. Because those old values are what corrupting you and you need to put on the new, which is made in the likeness of Christ. So you're united with him so that we see this spiritual process happening and playing out regularly. So that's one way that he does it. But on the other hand, as you mature in the Lord, guess what happened? Your values get more and more aligned, right? You become more mature in your faith stuff that tempted you 20 years ago. Doesn't tempt you as much today. And so what does he do? Is he sows chaos. In your life because tempting you to go against your conscience is not as effective anymore. You know, there's an old, old, old story, uh, between Pastor Harv and I, and it's a big joke. And the Harv has told this thing for 30 some years, but when we were in college, he was dating Shadlee, right. And so we went, uh, back to speak at a conference. I was speaking at a conference and he wanted to go to see Shadlee over a winter break because she was from Rangeley and this was in Steamboat Springs, Colorado. So we went back. I was speaking at that conference and one night Shadlee and Harvey and I. Walk down into Steamboat, just, you know, to kind of little sightsee and hang out in the town there. And I mean, we're, we're in college then. So we were young twenties. And so we walk into this ice cream store, right. To get some ice cream or yogurt or something like that. And so Harvey, you know, is always very, uh, uh, gregarious and engages with people. He's, there's not a stranger he's met, they're all future friends. And what happens is he's talking and he looks at me and he starts going, Hey, Peake man. That girl's really cute. You gotta to lock her out. You know, you gotta ask her out, you know, you need a date Peake, you need to get a date. And so I turned around, I looked at him and I said, man, I don't need that aggravation. So I said, okay. So, so as you mature the Lord, what happens? You don't need that aggravation anymore. So you kind of just get away. So what does he do? He says chaos in your life. He said was chaos in your work life. He says chaos in your children's and your grandchildren's life and your neighborhood life. He starts sewing chaos in your nation's life. And what people do I don't understand is that Satan wants to destabilize nations. You see when a nation is strong, it tends to be at peace. And when it's at peace, economies flourish, people are pulled out of poverty. It's great. All the way around. If you look today where all the famines are taking place, every famine in the world today is caused by one thing and one thing wrong alone, political instability, and war. So that is really an important fact to understand Satan is constantly causing chaos. So this is why the new Testament is filled with statements about enduring suffering. Hold up under suffering, got to persevere, hold fast to your faith. These admonitions are so prevalent. They are prevalent because Satan is constantly sewing chaos. If I can sow chaos in your life, some suffering and I can throw some curve balls and in obstacles in your way, then you're going to give up and cave. Well, the only antidote for chaos, is not giving up or throwing in the towel. The only antidote for chaos is order. And this is why we talked about this before the upstream work of growing your faith is so critical when you pursue joy, because you have to do the upstream work. If even though we live in the downstream and suffering happens in the downstream, right. But depression and anxiety happen in the downstream, uh, struggles, discouragement despair happen in the downstream. So if you want to change the downstream, like we talked about before, you've got to focus on the upstream work of growing your faith. [00:10:03] Jesse: So, I mean, really the difference comes down to. Satan is all about chaos and evil, specifically chaos. Um, and Jesus kind of brings order, right? Like it's kind of these two sides, um, of how you want your life to be handled. And what's influencing your life. Jesus is bringing order. He's telling you your life, your matters that you have steps that you should be taking things of this nature. [00:10:29] Doug: He brings peace, right? Yeah. Peace is the opposite of. [00:10:33] Jesse: Chaos. And so he's sewing that while Satan's trying to create chaos, pit people against each other things of that nature. So let's talk a little bit more about the upstream focus of the church. We live in the downstream. So we tend to think about it a lot. It's our daily life. Um, and that's kind of where we think joy is supposed to come from, but. Really, if we're working upstream, if the church is working upstream, then that trickles down. Right? So talk to me a little bit about the upstream work of the church and how that affects joy. [00:11:05] Doug: Well, in the same way that when you pursue your faith, we talked about this on Tuesday. This is the key to unlocking joy in your life. So the more you're at peace with God. Right then the more you are at peace with yourself, and that is the fertile soil of joy. I mean, it just sprouts and grows like crazy weeds, the weed joys all throughout your life. But when you look back throughout history, and this is why the upstream work of the church is so important. Every great progression. Let's just take historically, uh, America, right? Every great progression or advancement forward in the life of the United States of America started with what is commonly called a great awakening. It was a great spiritual awakening case in point. The American revolution and the establishment of the most free nation in the world was preceded by the first great awakening between 1730 and 1750 or 1720 to 1750. There was this massive, great awakening happening. So, and then what does that lead to? Well, then it led to the establishment of the United States of America and the constitution, which is an incredible document, which by the way, most people don't even know what the constitution says. Or how it says it, right? So we're actually going to start a constitution class for people. If you just want to know what the constitution says and why it says what it says, that's [00:12:33] Jesse: Starting in September, I think, is [00:12:34] Doug: It really? I don't know. That's awesome. [00:12:36] Jesse: We'll get some more information about it, [00:12:37] Doug: Information on that, but I think it's really exciting to see that coming up. Now, if you look at the fight to end slavery, you know, there is the civil war ended in 1865. What happened prior to that? It's commonly known as the second great awakening. It was between the 1830s and the 1845, 1850. You look at, uh, women's suffrage, meaning giving women the right to vote. The end of monopolies. You know when monopolies had, cause there were monopolies corporate monopolies, yeah. [00:13:10] Jesse: Not the board game [00:13:11] Doug: And they were very abusive to them, labor people. And so the breaking of monopolies, unfair trade practices, you know how you could go in and you would cheat your opponent. These monopolies would go in and they would, they would actually charge a price for something cheaper than. Cost them to make it, just to drive their competition out of business. Workers' rights. You look at that, you look at the child labor movement, like let's quit putting kids in these textile factories. They should go to school and maybe have opportunity, have an education for, so maybe they could have. Better life. Well, all of these things are really awesome. We look at that and we go, wow, that's really cool. But what happened right before that it's called the third great awakening. You see every one of these really great social things that we talk about in history class all day long, no one has ever taught or learned that what preceded it was a massive spiritual awakening. And because of this, uh, idiotic notion of separation of church and state, means that we have to eliminate religion and Christianity from everything we ever talk about, because we can have a secular state meaning that it's benign and has no influence of religion. Well, secularism has had its run and we have come to the conclusion. It sucks, you know, I mean, it's secularism doesn't work and what it's caused is all. Unhappiness this lack of joy because everybody is balkanizing. Now all of this balkanization all of this hostility is a result of secularization. That's exactly where it comes from. It's a one-to-one correlation or cause, and what's really fascinating about that is Satan loves that. See, he loves you. See Satan doesn't have an alternative empire that he wants to set up that he think will bring peace and happiness. Right. That's not what he's doing, what he wants to see when it's total chaos. So that everybody's killing everybody. I mean, he is literally the zombie apocalypse. [00:15:09] Jesse: Um, I think, uh, the, a great example of that as you're talking about this, it, it really reminds me of The Dark Knight, the Christopher Nolan movie with the Joker and Batman in it. And the Joker. His key throughout that whole thing is literally to so chaos. It's not that he wants to set up a new gang cause he goes in, meets with gangs. Um, and he kind of just sows chaos with it. He's like, Hey, we should just kill the Batman. And they're like, well, why, why? You know, we can take over this thing. He's like, no, I just think it'd be fun. And he's like, yeah. In bombs on ferries. And he's like, I don't care whether they kill each other or not. I just want to prove that they might, or they won't. And it's just like, it's, that's the kind of vibe Satan has too. It's like, it's not that he's wanting to take over. It's. He wants to watch the world burn basically [00:15:56] Doug: Satan wants to watch it burn. Yeah. Yeah. And still, uh, there's a scene in there, you know, when they're on the ferries and they're the bomb. And then there was these people there, all these prisoners, you know, and I can't remember the structure of a basically, it's like you, if you guys blow these people up or whatever, and they have a trigger, then you'll live and this gigantic prisoner, you know, Polish looking takeout walks over there and he grabs the trigger and then he walks out and over and throws it out the window. So he can, he chooses order. He chooses. Yeah. Which is really interesting because what that shows to me is that you see that that's what the redemptive power of Christ is. That is, is you have these prisoners that supposedly are going to be in opposition to these uh, civilian, [00:16:43] Jesse: they do show that they do show the, the non prisoners on the other ferry really seriously considered doing this. And then this prisoner who should be the biggest baddest guy, it's takes order. And he takes control and says, we're not doing this. [00:16:58] Doug: Yeah. Cause we're human beings and that's it. See, that's the thing is that I find so interesting about these, these polarizing arguments right now, is that the dehumanization. You know, I think it's fine to disagree, but, but you know, like I said before, I know people that have gotten the vaccine. Um, it's, I believe the vaccine is a modern day medical miracle, but I don't have any problem with somebody who doesn't have the vaccine. And, uh, and their choice not to get it. I think, you know, [00:17:32] Jesse: Your support them getting it or not getting it because it's their choice. [00:17:36] Doug: And, and what's really fascinating as Carnegie Mellon and many people may not be aware of Carnegie Mellon, but it is the leading research university in the United States of America. It it's just hardcore research. They did research on this and they found that the group of people that are the least vaccinated are PhD. Hmm. So it's not an issue of IQ, big brain, little brain. These people have the freedom to make their own choice. So, so why is media demonizing these people as. You know, and, and all of our problems are their fault. I know this sounds crazy. You're not supposed to make these connections and stuff like that, but it sounds so circa 1929 and 30 in Germany, that all of our problems is this group of people. [00:18:27] Jesse: Right. And it's not one side or the other that's innocent of this. Both sides are going well, if so-and-so would just do, if this group would stop doing this, then my life would be better. And so. It really is. It's pivoting people against it and they're no longer hearing each other. It's just them screaming at each other and turning people into non-humans anymore. [00:18:49] Doug: Yeah. And see, it's dehumanizing. And that's the thing about the movie that you brought up that I thought, you know, the person who should be willing to dehumanize people the most the criminal, because he's dehumanized people in the past by create, by committing crimes against them. Right. So when you commit a crime against something, You're dehumanizing them. [00:19:04] Jesse: Right. [00:19:04] Doug: Right. And he's the one that humanizes everybody in that moment, you know? And so I think that these are really important things because chaos people, and that's what I'm trying to get people to realize. That's an upstream issue. See evil flows out of chaos. And the upstream issue is Satan wants to sew as much chaos as he can. And this is why I believe the role of the church. Has a significant role to play in what's going on. [00:19:33] Jesse: So, I mean, before I took us on a tangent on, on great movies, I love the modern times. Uh, we were talking about, uh, great awakenings basically, and how some of the best and biggest social movements and changes happened based on these great awakenings happening throughout the church. And so it's really fascinating to have those correlations and I wonder kind of where the next generations going to find the next great awakening where the spirit next spiritual awakening and what it might do. Maybe it reforms universities or, or media or the world. I mean, it could be anything, but I think it's going to be, it's definitely going to be big, whatever it is. I think we're about due, based on the amount of time that's kind of passed between each of these different awakenings that you talked about in the past, it feels like. If history has any example where we're headed towards one, it's just going to be, what's it going to present as, and what is, what Revolut, what social change will happen as a result of it? [00:20:35] Doug: So, well, society right now is going off the rails change has been accelerated there's, uh, wars that are going on instability, and that will either have a great spiritual awakening. And then a bright future in America because the spiritual awakening is upstream. And then the downstream of that will be a great future of America. There's no such thing as a perfect country. There's always going to be people that live in America that hate America. There's always going to be people in America that wanna tear down all of its institutions. There's groups of people like we've talked about, uh, uh, that use neo-Marxist ideology that what they want to do is they want to rip everything out by root and stem. Basically they want to, they want to destroy the constitution. They want to destroy, uh, free market economics. They want to do all these things that our judicial system being fair and equal to is our judicial system always fair and equal, no. It's not it, but that's an impossibility. You can't compare it with because [00:21:40] Jesse: Ultimately, ultimately humans are the ones making the decisions, so it's going to have issues. [00:21:45] Doug: And the problem is, and the other guy, the problems you, you know, and that's what Jesus says is we have to always start with the own sin of our own heart. Is that cause that's what causes us to dehumanize others. And, but these groups of people want to tear these things down. Or did you say is, yeah, that's a great idea until you what's the alternative. So what's the alternative and the alternatives are really, really bad. Right. You know, and they never work out. So you, you have these things that are happening. And if we don't have a great awakening, then we're not going to have a future. And let me say that again. If we don't have a great awakening upstream, We're going to Balkanize in the United States of America in the next 50 to a hundred years is not going to be 50 United States, [00:22:29] Jesse: Will not be United States. [00:22:31] Doug: Yeah. It's going to be, you know, you're going to have two or three, you're going to have the first United States of America and the second United States or some crazy thing who knows, you know, [00:22:44] Jesse: Based on what Washington and Oregon want to do. It'll be the greater Idaho region and then two other, yeah. [00:22:51] Doug: Really is we're going to, it's going to gobble. Everybody loves the Idaho vibe. But, so I think that what's interesting about that is it doesn't have to go that way, but the way you change it is not, not by simply focusing on the downstream. Now you're going to fight battles downstream, right. But in the end, if we really want change in America, it has to start with a great awakening and that's all upstream. [00:23:20] Jesse: So, which, uh, I guess the question is, you know, ultimately not every church is going to be involved in the great awakening, some will, but some won't. Yes. Are our audience for the Salty Pastor and for Foothills is all over the country. Yes. What should people be looking for in an upstream focused church? Well, think that might be leading the charge on a great awakening. [00:23:43] Doug: A great awakening. Well, that's a really great question because you know, what I would help people understand is that is you should evaluate churches, not on the way they make you feel. You see, but the way they, the way that they challenge you now, I'm not saying don't go to a church that makes you feel bad all the time. That's not what I'm trying to say, because some churches are, oh, I need to go to a church. It makes me feel guilty and ashamed every day. No, that's not what I mean. What I mean though, is that some people will say go to a church and they go, wow. The music just makes me feel really good. You know? And the pastor always makes me feel good and. They are basing [00:24:16] Jesse: their joy. [00:24:17] Doug: On the downstream experience. Yeah. And what you realize is that the reason why the music makes you feel good, because it reminds you of when you were in high school, you know, cruising in your car and it sounds like that and blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And so she was like, oh, this just takes me back. So awesome. [00:24:34] Jesse: What, what were you cruising in your car with 8-tracks? [00:24:39] Doug: When I was in middle school, we had an 8-track player. [00:24:41] Jesse: Yeah. I will say I did not have an eight track. [00:24:44] Doug: And then the big thing was cassette tapes. That was just , boy if you could have a cassette tape player out of cassette tape collection. Oh yeah, it was awesome. [00:24:55] Jesse: Anyway, I interrupted you. [00:24:57] Doug: But what happens is, is what you want to do is you want to say, does this, you ask the question, does the church bring me joy? In other words, does it challenge me to serve so I can understand my purpose in the world. Does it challenge me to be generous? So I take the focus off myself and learn what Christ wants to do through me. And that happens through generosity. Um, is it about, uh, does it really teach the biblical truth, you know, and. Which is called the gospel message. So I think the first thing you have to realize is that these churches tend to be happier churches, right? They're not filled with chaos and conflict and all that kind of stuff. Biblical churches tend to be more joyful. Uh, discipleship oriented churches tend to be more joyful. So go and look for a church that isn't trying to drive you to an event all the time. Now, all churches have worship and sometimes there's lots of people that go to those and churches have to spend a lot of time accommodating everybody that wants to come so that they can hear the gospel, which is good. But is that church driving you to discipleship? Is it driving you to a small group? Is it driving you to a discipleship. [00:26:02] Jesse: Their only focuses on a Sunday morning meeting? Yeah. [00:26:06] Doug: Or concerts on the weekends and, you know, events, events, events, um, the, the, what you want to do. I'm not saying churches shouldn't have events. I'm not saying that either. What I'm saying though, does the church drive you to discipleship? Because discipleship churches are more joyful. Uh, find a church, a strong leadership, you know, that a church where, you know, maybe there's a Salty Pastor. [00:26:30] Jesse: Just hypothetically. If we were throwing one out, maybe they have a Salty Pastor. [00:26:33] Doug: Someone, but someone who is not afraid to speak the truth and is just seeking the affirmation of the community. You know, a perfect example of this is when COVID was locked. When we started locking down, um, KTVB kept calling me to do interviews, right. [00:26:48] Jesse: KTVB is a Boise TV station for those listeners who are not in Boise. Yes. [00:26:54] Doug: And so they would always juxtapose me. In other words, they would interview me and then they would go interview another pastor from here in town who is a progressive pastor. Super progressive. Right? And then they would juxtapose our statements. You know what I'm saying? And of course his statement was, well, we love everybody and we love, and all we do is love. And so we're going to shut down and we're not going to do anything and we're not going to, you know, so it was like that. And then they would juxtapose me and say, well, we don't want to be a part of the problem. You know, but we're also going to be a solution and we're going to keep preaching and we're going to keep discipling. And if we have to go visit people have COVID or take them groceries. We're going to do that. We're going to ramp up our food pantry, which we did. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. We're going to do all these kinds of things. And they're like, well, you're not shutting down as a church. I go, no, this is a call to action for the church. It's a call to action to go out. Don't be a part of the problem, but do something and don't be afraid, you know? Uh, I think the best attitude of all of this has been for my stepfather. He just turned 92. He's 92 years old. And so we're going through [00:27:59] Jesse: He's an avid listener of the Salty Pastor. [00:28:01] Doug: I'm just so impressed with Howard, uh, my stepfather, because he was. Look, I'm 90 years old, you know, um, if, if it was my time to go before or something, would've got me, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to be, you know, dangerous or anything. He wasn't cavalier about it, but he goes, I'm not gonna stop living life. And I think that that was interesting. So find churches where people are not afraid, the leadership is not afraid to be the church, even in the most difficult circumstances, that's called strong leadership. Find a place that is not afraid to be the church, even in the greatest and most difficult circumstances. And then finally, you know, what makes a church church a great and strong and powerful. You do. You! [00:28:50] Jesse: You're the difference! [00:28:51] Doug: You're the difference. Every listener, you're the difference. And that is, you know, find a church that preaches the Bible and drives you to discipleship, calls it an action to serve, but has strong leadership, but ultimately. I think that if you want an upstream church, that's going to bring about revival, a spiritual awakening in America, and we don't have to awaken every American. You just have to get it going and have this revival moving through. If you want to do that, then invest in your church first because you can S you can invest in the downstream. And I'm not saying don't do that, but ultimately invest in your church first because Jesus Christ said. I will build my church and the gates of hell, the gates of chaos, the gates of evil, the gates of division, the gates of murder, the gates of rape, the gates of abuse, the gates of chemical addiction and, uh, these things that destroy you and suicide and despair and all of these gates will not prevail against it. Hmm, that is the kind of church we need to have if we want to see America have a future. [00:30:08] Jesse: So as we kind of wrap up, we've got a couple of minutes left. What do you think. About churches getting involved in social justice movements. We've we've talked about this a couple of times, but for some newer listeners or just to reiterate, I mean, I've, I've been reading critical race theory. People are starting to talk about it. They must have been listening to the Salty Pastor cause you've been talking about it for a while, but the rest of the country has caught on and the great debate is raging and some churches are jumping on the wagon. Are not getting involved and some are opposed. It's kind of a, a all over the place. What is your thoughts about churches being involved for against around social justice movements? [00:30:48] Doug: Well, when you study the history of the church globally, you know, over 2000 years, you discover that there are many times when the church became downstream focused in their efforts. Now what's interesting about that is that the church is so interesting because you know, is that faith is an upstream thing, even on a personal level, right? It's like, okay, I'm going to get up. I'm gonna work on my faith, my relationship with God, I'm going to walk in what Jesus is calling me. I'm going to realign my values with his values. Well, then you go out and you go to work, you know, and you work with, uh, a boss or a manager and an employee who is just like, man, I just want to pummel that person, you know, it's like, okay. So, so now you got to take your upstream work and apply it in the downstream. Right. And so you're like, okay, maybe what I need to do with these people is doing nothing is not an option. Right because their behavior is bad and you shouldn't tolerate that. But on the other hand, overreacting and being abusive is not the right thing. Maybe I need to adopt Joseph Grenny. I need to have some crucial conversations here and see where this is going to go forward. And so, wow. What a great way that we can resolve differences and we can not be divided. I don't have to de-humanize that person, I can still treat them like a human being. I can have a crucial conversation with them, but at the same time, say, yeah, we don't tolerate that. I'm not going to tolerate it. It's not going to be in my life. Shouldn't be in yours either. So that's the upstream work flowing into downstream. So churches are the same thing. We're up here. We're called to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. First and foremost, we were to go and make disciples of all nation. The very command of Jesus Christ in Matthew chapter 28. That's our, all of our upstream. But then downstream. It says, well, if you have a brother in need and you say, go be warm and filled, but you do nothing to meet their need. Then how does the love of God dwell in you? So the upstream work is the love of God, right? But if it doesn't translate into downstream activity, so what happens is, is this is that if you become a social justice movement church, the problem you're going to have over and over again is just putting all of your energy in the downstream. You see, there's a spiritual principle here is that is nothing in the downstream can change unless the upstream changes first. So the more you focus on upstream, right? Then it will flow to the downstream. But see the converse of that is true because you'll have these churches that know everything about the Bible, right. They know everything about how they're supposed to live. They know everything about evangelizing. But they won't share their faith with anybody. They know that they're supposed to feed the poor and bind up the brokenhearted and visit those in prison and heal the sick. But they never do that. They go and they talk about how they know how to do that. Right. So, so the converse is true on either side. And the thing is what makes a church powerful is that if it first understands, the wellspring of life is to preach the gospel of Jesus and be his witnesses. Right. And then it's got to flow. You see social justice churches. Stop the upstream and focus only on the downstream. So the solutions they come up with are in direct contradiction to the gospel of Jesus Christ. See, that's a salty thing to say, but that's what happens is like when you want to adopt communism as a part of Christianity, you are violating the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because what you're doing is you're saying is that the collective should own the labor of individual. That's called slavery. You don't own your own labor. You are not a sovereign individual anymore. The state owns you. It can tell you what to think. It can tell you what to eat, what your job is, everything that's called slavery. And so it's evil. And so that's what these downstream churches are doing. And I I'd be so bold as to say that they've lost their way. And this is what, uh, the apostle John wrote. In the book of Revelation towards the end times. And he speaks to church and he says, I have this against you. You have lost your first. What? Love. Yeah. You've lost your first love. He said you better restore. Otherwise, I will come and remove your lampstand. In other words, I will remove my favor over you and no longer be considered my church. My church will prevail against all of these things, right. And so, so I really want to encourage people to invest in their churches upstream and the stronger your church is then the broader its influence out into your community and the stronger it will be. And I, I just think that's a great way and also try to avoid churches. That don't understand the flow of the wellspring of the favor of God. You don't want to be too far up here where you know, everything it's true, but you don't do anything about it, [00:35:38] Jesse: Your knowledge and cutting off the flow. Exactly. [00:35:41] Doug: Or forget the wellspring and the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ and what it calls us to. And you focus only on the downstream making a difference, right. You know, right here in the downstream. So find some, a church that understands the gospel preaches the gospel. It's called a discipleship honoring God above all else, but also is active. In the downstream. [00:36:04] Jesse: Well, thank you so much for those thoughts on joy and what kind of a church you should be looking for as you, as you look to grow your faith and really invest in your time and faith. And we thank you guys for joining us here on the Salty Pastor. We're encouraging you to make sure you're having these conversations with other people have. Thoughts and, and listen to other people, because again, you don't want to be contributing to the problem of polarization and just say, I'm right, you're wrong. And I'm not going to listen to anything you say we're out here having a discussion so that you can learn how to have discussions with other people, right? They're not always going to be easy and sometimes other people are going to maybe scream at you. But if you're not out there actively talking about your faith and what a difference it makes and refining that. Forging that edge. So you know what you believe and you can be strong and confident. You're not, you're damning up your upstream work. Okay. Yeah. And you're not letting it flow. So, uh, please do that. Thank you guys so much for joining us, Pastor Doug, we'll be preaching on Sunday here at Foothills Christian Church. Um, talking about joy and we hope to see you on Sunday. [00:37:07] Doug: Hey, amen. Bless. 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