Latest / The Bechdel Cast / The Lord of the Rings Trilogy - Part 2 with Anna Salinas

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The Lord of the Rings Trilogy - Part 2 with Anna Salinas · The Bechdel Cast

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Speaker 1: On the Beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies
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Speaker 1: have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends
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Speaker 1: and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef
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Speaker 1: invest start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello, and
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Speaker 1: welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante
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Speaker 1: and my name is Jamie Loftus, and this is part
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Speaker 1: two of our Lord of the Rings Trilogy episode. Hey, Caitlin,
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Speaker 1: did you know that movie trilogy is really fucking long?
0:31
Speaker 1: I did know that that past the Bechdel Test. If
0:35
Speaker 1: you don't know what that is, get with the program.
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Speaker 1: Just kidding, But if you haven't listened to episode one
0:42
Speaker 1: of the Lord of the Rings podcast, we recommend you know,
0:45
Speaker 1: maybe go back to part one, listen to it through
0:47
Speaker 1: and and this is part two. I mean, if you
0:50
Speaker 1: just want to listen to this one, that would sort
0:52
Speaker 1: of be like starting in the middle of Lord of
0:55
Speaker 1: the Rings two Towers and then only watching that and which, honestly,
1:00
Speaker 1: not to betray my opinion of this trilogy, would be
1:02
Speaker 1: totally fine. Nothing happens the entire movie, that doesn't even matter. Disagree,
1:06
Speaker 1: All kinds of things happen, clearly you don't remember Golem
1:11
Speaker 1: trying to anyway. So this is part two. If you
1:18
Speaker 1: haven't listened to part one, we recommend going and doing
1:20
Speaker 1: that first. But otherwise do you you do, you your body,
1:24
Speaker 1: your choice. Here's part two. So that brings us to
1:28
Speaker 1: a Owen. She is introduced for the first time in
1:31
Speaker 1: the second movie. She is the niece of King Theodin
1:34
Speaker 1: of Rohan. Why did their names rhyme? Like we said,
1:40
Speaker 1: her whole thing is that she wants to fight. All
1:42
Speaker 1: the men get to fight. Women are you know, perceived
1:45
Speaker 1: as being helpless in this universe and that they have
1:47
Speaker 1: to be protected. But she is a skilled sword fighter
1:50
Speaker 1: and she wants to do her part in this fight,
1:54
Speaker 1: in this war, this impending war. Right, But then she
1:57
Speaker 1: meets Ericorn and she's like, who's that? And now all
2:02
Speaker 1: of a sudden, there's a love triangle between Ergorn, Arwyn
2:06
Speaker 1: and Awen that has almost no tension in it. There.
2:10
Speaker 1: This is like the most boring love triangle in the
2:12
Speaker 1: entire world. It is because it's so clear that Airgorn
2:14
Speaker 1: is not interested. Right from moment one and again, in
2:18
Speaker 1: the same gender neutral way that this whole story plays out,
2:21
Speaker 1: we see her hurt being rejected by Vigo Mortensen, as
2:26
Speaker 1: everyone at the table knows we've all been rejected. It
2:30
Speaker 1: doesn't feel great and feel great, but he's not mean
2:34
Speaker 1: to her. It's not and and there's never a particular
2:37
Speaker 1: sexual tension between them in the first place, so it's
2:39
Speaker 1: almost just like it's a crush that is unrequited, and
2:42
Speaker 1: so that is not particularly compelling to watch, right, But
2:46
Speaker 1: like this introduction of like her really kind of falling
2:51
Speaker 1: in love with him or maybe just having like a
2:53
Speaker 1: crush does not need to be there. She serves another
2:56
Speaker 1: function in the story. So for her to also be
2:59
Speaker 1: in love with them, man, I think like really sells
3:02
Speaker 1: out her character. And and we also get one of
3:05
Speaker 1: my favorite sellouts of the female character who is allowed
3:09
Speaker 1: to do anything. Because I think Aoen by far is
3:12
Speaker 1: the most active for female character and she still basically
3:15
Speaker 1: has no my fact on the plot, but you know,
3:17
Speaker 1: she's the most active by far. And there's that scene
3:22
Speaker 1: where she has a sword and it's the first time
3:25
Speaker 1: we're seeing her wheeled a sword and airgorn like notices
3:28
Speaker 1: and it's like, hey, you can do what the boys do,
3:32
Speaker 1: and she's like, I know, pretty cool, right, But I'll
3:35
Speaker 1: be humble and shy about it. And then because he's
3:39
Speaker 1: the I think that we're to believe because he's the
3:41
Speaker 1: first man who has acknowledged she's doing it at all
3:44
Speaker 1: and doesn't really say, like, you're really good at that,
3:48
Speaker 1: and I respect you, but he doesn't not say that,
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Speaker 1: And I think that that is like for us, supposed
3:53
Speaker 1: to be the entry point of like she likes him
3:56
Speaker 1: because he's the only man she's ever met who hasn't
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Speaker 1: nagged her for her interests. I think that that's like
4:01
Speaker 1: the root of her interest in him. It's like, well,
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Speaker 1: he didn't say I sucked like every man in my
4:08
Speaker 1: life does, so I guess I love him. It's true.
4:15
Speaker 1: I'm just like, are you not yelling at me? Cool?
4:18
Speaker 1: We're married? Um. And then there's more to talk about
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Speaker 1: with her character, but where her story ends. In the
4:24
Speaker 1: one of eight hundred conclusions of this trilogy, she gets
4:28
Speaker 1: paired up with Ferremir because Ericorn rejects her, so she
4:32
Speaker 1: has to end up with some man. So they placed
4:36
Speaker 1: her next to Faremere. They might they give each other
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Speaker 1: a little like CD. I. I think there's a moment
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Speaker 1: in I hate that, like the last minute, like don't worry.
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Speaker 1: She's still gonna a guy. He's like, oh no, we
4:48
Speaker 1: weren't freaking out about it. Actually we were fined. So
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Speaker 1: they get paired up and head her own normativity is
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Speaker 1: alive and well, so I kind of want to just
4:58
Speaker 1: kinda go through to the movies and point out a
5:01
Speaker 1: few different things we see in terms of, you know,
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Speaker 1: the gender dynamics. So in the Fellowship of the Ring
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Speaker 1: again we opened with a woman's voice. We've got gladiol
5:10
Speaker 1: being sort of place like omniscient narrator. Like the narration
5:17
Speaker 1: is very inconsistent in the movie. That definitely, and then
5:20
Speaker 1: when she does appear on screen again throughout the movies,
5:24
Speaker 1: it's it's seldom happens, and then it's it's again to
5:28
Speaker 1: deliver exposition narrator. I r L. Yeah. So I mean,
5:31
Speaker 1: I guess you could argue that it's cool that like
5:34
Speaker 1: a woman is given like an omniscient point of view
5:37
Speaker 1: sort of, but no, yeah, there there is a retelling
5:40
Speaker 1: of this movie that puts her as the omniscient being,
5:44
Speaker 1: because that's really what was implied. I think to a degree,
5:48
Speaker 1: like this is giving it too much credit. But by
5:51
Speaker 1: making her the narrator, it's as if she's like speaking
5:54
Speaker 1: like this is how it all happened. So maybe in
5:58
Speaker 1: the future of Earth, she became the king of the world.
6:02
Speaker 1: She became the storyteller. She's like, hey, everybody, you want
6:05
Speaker 1: to hear a story about five guys I met. She
6:08
Speaker 1: becomes the new Gandalf, and that's kind of what he does, right, Yeah,
6:11
Speaker 1: it'll take ten hours of your time. Learn's like, no,
6:15
Speaker 1: I don't, I'm good ace. Um. There is a moment
6:21
Speaker 1: very early on in the first movie where like Gandalf
6:24
Speaker 1: is like riding through the shire and um, there's like
6:27
Speaker 1: all these children who are like cand off play some
6:29
Speaker 1: fireworks and he's like okay, and then there's like a
6:33
Speaker 1: hobbit couple and the man is like, t he I
6:36
Speaker 1: like fireworks too, And then his wife shows up and
6:40
Speaker 1: she's scowling because women be shrews, as we know, and
6:44
Speaker 1: then he has to pretend like he's not having fun
6:46
Speaker 1: and not enjoying the fireworks. And it's supposed to be
6:48
Speaker 1: like this ha ha comical moment, but the first depiction
6:51
Speaker 1: of a woman you see on screen is a shrewish
6:54
Speaker 1: hobbit lady. So I feel like that really sets the
6:57
Speaker 1: tone for the whole and aren't wait a minute, And
6:59
Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense because Hobbits are supposed to
7:02
Speaker 1: be so joyful, love fun. Exactly what was this woman
7:06
Speaker 1: crashed in the party for. Well, she's a woman, so
7:09
Speaker 1: she can't have fun. She can't have fun. Women are
7:12
Speaker 1: not having fun in this in this series, so you're
7:15
Speaker 1: not giggling. Then, well, I guess they go to Bilbo's party. Yeah,
7:18
Speaker 1: but that's a few minutes of screen time and then
7:21
Speaker 1: we hardly see those characters again. Sam's wife has fun,
7:25
Speaker 1: she had a lot of kids. Yeah, once she starts
7:28
Speaker 1: t shirt gunning out Sam's kid. Yeah, that's actually in
7:32
Speaker 1: the extended version. I saw you see Sam's wife give birth,
7:37
Speaker 1: and it's it's like a machine gun of baby. Progressive
7:41
Speaker 1: moment in cinema. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because they
7:44
Speaker 1: show it from below. Yeah, basically a biology Yeah, that's
7:50
Speaker 1: and that's in the three D version. That is in
7:52
Speaker 1: the three D it's we're more like Hobbits than you
7:55
Speaker 1: would think when you see it up close. It's okay.
8:00
Speaker 1: When we first meet our went on screen again, it's
8:01
Speaker 1: not until over an hour into the movie it's established
8:04
Speaker 1: that she and Agorn know each other, but it's not
8:07
Speaker 1: We're not quite sure how or what in what context.
8:10
Speaker 1: Her introduction is a little cool because we do meet
8:13
Speaker 1: her by her holding a sword up to Aragorn's neck
8:17
Speaker 1: very hot. Yes, so she is threatening his life. But
8:20
Speaker 1: then a few scenes later you're like, oh, they're basically
8:23
Speaker 1: engaged to be married. So so it was just like
8:27
Speaker 1: it was like a little thing they were doing. I mean,
8:30
Speaker 1: I wasn't into Vigo watching that movie, but I think
8:33
Speaker 1: my little whatever I was nine years old self, was like, yeah,
8:37
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, this is kind of what's happening. And
8:40
Speaker 1: then but then think about this later, You're like, it's
8:44
Speaker 1: gonna be a few years before I can unpack this fully.
8:48
Speaker 1: So then a few moments later in the movie, she's
8:51
Speaker 1: like riding up on a horse. There's like angelic music.
8:56
Speaker 1: Her dress is white, even though when it cuts to
8:59
Speaker 1: a moment later in the Dame exact scene, she's wearing
9:01
Speaker 1: a different dress. But she's like she comes in as
9:03
Speaker 1: this like angel savior to like save Photo's life. She's
9:07
Speaker 1: literally glowing. She and Galadriel are never not glowing, although
9:12
Speaker 1: Gandalf glows too. Sometimes Gandolf does glow, he has but
9:16
Speaker 1: but he does, but never when he's gand off the
9:20
Speaker 1: way for that one scene, but most of the time
9:23
Speaker 1: we see him on screen, he's he's dull, I mean,
9:27
Speaker 1: and to be fair, all men are dull and all
9:31
Speaker 1: women are radiants and perfect. True, however, and also the
9:36
Speaker 1: we we don't see women who are not fabulously wealthy
9:42
Speaker 1: and conventionally attractive glow. We do not see poor people
9:48
Speaker 1: when when there are women on screen who are meant
9:51
Speaker 1: to be poor, they do not glow. Habit, women do
9:55
Speaker 1: not glow. Yeah, like if you are hot, hot royalty,
9:59
Speaker 1: you glow. And even then it's I feel like the
10:02
Speaker 1: only reason that a Owen is not depicted in this
10:05
Speaker 1: way as because with Arwin and Galadriel, they're supposed to
10:10
Speaker 1: be these like virginal women and objects of desire, where
10:14
Speaker 1: we're I sort of interpreted. We're intended to see Aoen
10:19
Speaker 1: a Owen Ewen McGregor. We're supposed to see a o
10:23
Speaker 1: En as more of a girl. I don't think we're
10:27
Speaker 1: encouraged to view her as like a sexual being in
10:30
Speaker 1: the same way we're encouraged to see the other two.
10:33
Speaker 1: But make no mistakes, she's still part of a royal family.
10:36
Speaker 1: Because her uncle is the king, so she's still she's royalty,
10:40
Speaker 1: and she's still conventionally, by Western beauty standards attractive. We
10:45
Speaker 1: only get beautiful women. And the range in male characters.
10:50
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that's a complaint on all movies,
10:52
Speaker 1: but the range in male characters. Man, you have a
10:55
Speaker 1: whole species of thing that is ugly. Yet I mean
11:00
Speaker 1: there's there. There is every well, I mean you can't
11:04
Speaker 1: extend it to color. There are white men of every
11:08
Speaker 1: shape and size in this film franchise. There's every kind
11:12
Speaker 1: of white man you get ever in counter in your
11:15
Speaker 1: entire life. You got Legless, you got the hacker, you
11:19
Speaker 1: got you got you fro, you got fig wit, you
11:24
Speaker 1: got fig With the Brett mackenzie character, there's short hair,
11:27
Speaker 1: there's also long hair's hairy feet, there's smooth feet, old
11:32
Speaker 1: not old. Wizards sometimes not wizards. The next thing that
11:39
Speaker 1: I think is worth noting that happens in the first
11:42
Speaker 1: movie is that we learn about the Urquai and how
11:46
Speaker 1: they exist, which is that Saramon, the bad Wizard, not
11:49
Speaker 1: to be confused with Sorrow on the Eye, is breeding
11:54
Speaker 1: orcs and goblin men to make this like super race
11:58
Speaker 1: of crazy warriors like eight fighters, all this stuff. They
12:01
Speaker 1: take women out of the equation. There does not need
12:04
Speaker 1: to be wounds. They are born as adults. They hatch,
12:10
Speaker 1: they hatch out of this pile of mud poop, mud, placenta,
12:15
Speaker 1: placent I wouldn't give it placenta. There's no placenta there, right,
12:22
Speaker 1: it's just like a pile of mud. That love that
12:24
Speaker 1: band mud lists are known. There's some like saran wrap
12:33
Speaker 1: covered in muddy poop, and that they break out of
12:37
Speaker 1: that and suddenly they're born, so that like, sure, sure,
12:41
Speaker 1: that's how you breed urakai fun way to cut women
12:45
Speaker 1: out of the narrative. Maybe, I mean this is also
12:49
Speaker 1: anti feminist, but maybe the implication is that because they're
12:54
Speaker 1: making the worst kind of obedient like creature, they can't
12:59
Speaker 1: have women that would be too good. But you know
13:01
Speaker 1: that puts that's not Yeah, I'm reaching. Why am I
13:05
Speaker 1: trying to defend? Why am I trying to defend the
13:07
Speaker 1: ranks because it doesn't deserve but there but this is
13:13
Speaker 1: the kind of I think this is definitely the kind
13:15
Speaker 1: of like franchise that you try to find a way
13:18
Speaker 1: to want to defend because it isn't aggressive towards women,
13:21
Speaker 1: it just leaves them out, and so it's harder. I
13:23
Speaker 1: feel like it's a little harder to reconcile. Yeah, it's
13:26
Speaker 1: not offensive, it's not grotesquely offensive. It's just so so
13:30
Speaker 1: the Silent Killer. Yeah. Um. And then there's there's a
13:36
Speaker 1: fun moment in a Rivendell, one of the Elf cities,
13:40
Speaker 1: where Gandef is like, hey around, Actually it's like men
13:44
Speaker 1: folk who we should like be trusting and like putting
13:47
Speaker 1: our faith in men to rule the fate of you know,
13:51
Speaker 1: Middle Earth. Did he mean gender men or human name,
13:55
Speaker 1: like the race of men as opposed to the race
13:59
Speaker 1: of elves or so that's what he means. But then
14:02
Speaker 1: l Ron responds men men are weak. So I think
14:05
Speaker 1: l Rond is a feminist icon. This is just feminist
14:09
Speaker 1: icon l Rond, but which sounds a little too much
14:11
Speaker 1: like l Ron Hubbard. I keep wanting to say l
14:14
Speaker 1: Ron Hubbard n one name. Yeah. So that's for me
14:20
Speaker 1: that those were like the notable things in terms of
14:23
Speaker 1: gender in the first movie where we're introduced to Arwin
14:27
Speaker 1: and glad Reel there for the most part, sideline, they
14:30
Speaker 1: have so little screen time that you forget that they
14:33
Speaker 1: exist they're both like these like fair maiden, virginal, angelic,
14:37
Speaker 1: willowy creatures. Yes, you're like, oh, I wonder if this
14:41
Speaker 1: movie cares about women or not, and then you remember
14:44
Speaker 1: not even a little bit. Um. So then we get
14:46
Speaker 1: into the Two Towers, and this is when we meet
14:49
Speaker 1: a win and that's when it's established that she's both
14:52
Speaker 1: a good fighter, but also she is horny for Aragorn
14:56
Speaker 1: for I mean reasons that we've argued could makes sense,
15:00
Speaker 1: but there's really no reason for her narratively to be
15:06
Speaker 1: interested in Airgorn. Like that that choice was made, you know,
15:09
Speaker 1: I guess to just like, oh, well, there's a woman
15:11
Speaker 1: in a story, and there's head normativity all around us,
15:15
Speaker 1: so let's make sure that she's in love with air
15:17
Speaker 1: Gorn so that we can have a love triangle. I
15:19
Speaker 1: don't know if that happens in the books or not.
15:21
Speaker 1: If you're if you're a fan of the books or
15:23
Speaker 1: you've read the books, um tweet at us and let
15:25
Speaker 1: us know if this love triangle was set up in
15:28
Speaker 1: the books or if this is just a change made
15:30
Speaker 1: in the film adaptation. I'd be interested to know that
15:33
Speaker 1: because I'm sort of skeptical. I feel like it was
15:36
Speaker 1: something that was added into the movies just to just
15:41
Speaker 1: to make it so yeah. Yeah, So we learned that
15:44
Speaker 1: she wants to fight and that, you know, that's her
15:48
Speaker 1: whole thing, which I think is cool. I agree that
15:51
Speaker 1: she is the most active character. She has the most
15:55
Speaker 1: agency of any of the other female characters, which is
15:57
Speaker 1: not hard because there's only two other ones and they're
16:00
Speaker 1: basically pointless to the story. We do meet her uncle, Theaden,
16:04
Speaker 1: who is E. J. Smith from Titanic. Oh, I forgot
16:08
Speaker 1: about that major twist. The best tressed load of the
16:14
Speaker 1: rings is that they captain from Titanic. Where's a wig
16:17
Speaker 1: and it um. Then there's a scene where Gimley the
16:24
Speaker 1: Dwarf is talking to a Owen and he's like, it's true,
16:27
Speaker 1: you don't see many dwarf women. In fact, they are
16:30
Speaker 1: so like in voice and appearance they are often mistaken
16:32
Speaker 1: for dwarfmen, which hack that I mean the whole the
16:38
Speaker 1: whole way that dwarves are portrayed at moments in this franchise.
16:42
Speaker 1: I think that there are moments where dwarves are portrayed
16:45
Speaker 1: as better but ultimately kind of offensive to the little
16:51
Speaker 1: person community. I'd be interested in, like reading thoughts that
16:55
Speaker 1: either the actors or just the reaction to that community,
16:58
Speaker 1: to Dwarves as a whole, because I know that Dwarves
17:01
Speaker 1: taken even larger role in the Hobbit franchise. Yeah, that's
17:05
Speaker 1: I feel like that's like, I mean to for sure
17:10
Speaker 1: the shad they went to battle. Yeah, I think I
17:14
Speaker 1: mistakenly referred to them as Hobbits earlier when I was
17:17
Speaker 1: talking about Hobbits. But there to confuse, what are so
17:22
Speaker 1: what are dwarfs known for? What are there like trade
17:25
Speaker 1: in this world? They're basically capitalists because they hang out
17:30
Speaker 1: in their minds mining their precious jewels and gold and
17:33
Speaker 1: all of that stuff. They don't want to be troubled
17:35
Speaker 1: with the outside world. They're really just content to be
17:38
Speaker 1: confined to their caves and there, you know, mountains where
17:42
Speaker 1: all their treasures are. So that's the rules that are.
17:45
Speaker 1: That's like, I think that's like literally what l Rond says,
17:47
Speaker 1: He's like, they cared nothing for the troubles of men.
17:50
Speaker 1: Do they die when they go to that place? There
17:55
Speaker 1: are yes, Um, I don't think the Dwarf race is
17:59
Speaker 1: wipe out completely. But when they go to the minds
18:02
Speaker 1: of Maria in the first movie. Yeah, all of the
18:04
Speaker 1: dwarfs there have been slaughtered by goblins, So yeah, we
18:09
Speaker 1: don't there's more minds, I think. I'm not really sure. Again,
18:14
Speaker 1: I only know what's talked about in the movies, So
18:17
Speaker 1: if there's other information that's in the books, I don't
18:19
Speaker 1: know about that. So I guess what I'm wondering is, Yeah,
18:23
Speaker 1: I get that those traits don't really mean anything in
18:25
Speaker 1: terms of the gender dynamics. But on the one hand,
18:29
Speaker 1: if men look like women in dwarf communities, that's interesting.
18:34
Speaker 1: But also the way he's saying it is like if
18:36
Speaker 1: you don't look like a conventionally attractive, tall white woman,
18:44
Speaker 1: I thought that was the implication. Yeah, once again, I
18:47
Speaker 1: don't know how to make sense of it. Lord of
18:50
Speaker 1: the Rings Apologist, you should see me watch West World.
18:54
Speaker 1: I I can't. I mean, I can't imagine you watching Smiles,
18:59
Speaker 1: thanks alcohol and SMI is a woman. Smile is voiced
19:06
Speaker 1: by Benedict Comback. Never mind, you're right mixing it up
19:10
Speaker 1: with the dragon Strick. Oh yeah, yeah, because they look
19:13
Speaker 1: super alike. I know that. Oh yeah, well, the whole
19:23
Speaker 1: dragon is a woman with Donkey, very feminist. We talked
19:27
Speaker 1: about that in our Struck episode did really yeah, oh yeah,
19:32
Speaker 1: strongest female character in the franchise. So while we're like
19:37
Speaker 1: hanging out with a win Aergorn is all like, here's
19:40
Speaker 1: this new woman. How do I feel about this other
19:43
Speaker 1: woman that I know? And we see different flashbacks where
19:47
Speaker 1: Ericorn is basically like, we can't be together. You shouldn't
19:50
Speaker 1: sacrifice yourself for me, telling her like, let's end this
19:54
Speaker 1: without really like checking in to see like how she
19:56
Speaker 1: feels about the situation. Elrond is all I Airgorn is
20:00
Speaker 1: gonna die no matter what, and you're going to be
20:03
Speaker 1: sad about it, and then you're gonna have to live
20:05
Speaker 1: on forever being sad because apparently when your loved one
20:09
Speaker 1: dies and then you keep living, you mourn forever. There's
20:13
Speaker 1: no way to get over it. And she'll just spend
20:16
Speaker 1: her the rest of her immortal life in mourning because
20:21
Speaker 1: you know, she's just so sad that a man dies
20:23
Speaker 1: that she has to basically just like kneel by his
20:27
Speaker 1: grave forever and that's the only thing that she can do,
20:30
Speaker 1: is what the movie is, you know, suggesting will happen. Um.
20:33
Speaker 1: But then she she keeps telling people like, no, I've
20:35
Speaker 1: made my choice. This is what I choose. But no
20:38
Speaker 1: one like l rond Ergorn, they do not respect her choice,
20:42
Speaker 1: and they keep trying to convince her to choose something else.
20:45
Speaker 1: I mean, it's her choice. Do I think it's a
20:46
Speaker 1: good choice personally? Not especially? And also it's like the
20:50
Speaker 1: choice foisted upon her by well, I don't know, it's
20:54
Speaker 1: a choice voiced upon her by two women and a man.
20:57
Speaker 1: Because the Arwin story that's not you, that's, to my understanding,
21:02
Speaker 1: is not Tolkien. That's like something introduced into the narrative
21:06
Speaker 1: by the movie which is written. Yeah, yeah, I really
21:14
Speaker 1: Now I want to know what that process was. Okay,
21:19
Speaker 1: first of all, we've been over this a bit. It
21:21
Speaker 1: was the time there is like a conventional wisdom, and
21:26
Speaker 1: there was more so than to how movies were written,
21:28
Speaker 1: where it was like in those blockbusters, you must have
21:32
Speaker 1: love triangles, and I mean that's still true. Yeah. And
21:36
Speaker 1: if women are introduced because they're not the protagonists in
21:41
Speaker 1: this heteronormative space, well what else are you gonna do
21:43
Speaker 1: with them? Right? Like? What function could they serve besides
21:46
Speaker 1: being in love with a man? I want to live
21:50
Speaker 1: in a world and I'm sure because this this franchise
21:53
Speaker 1: is so intensely documented that perhaps there are other drafts
21:59
Speaker 1: of scripts available. But I like, I mean, because there's
22:03
Speaker 1: so much leather rings media, I would love for there
22:07
Speaker 1: to be a world where the female screenwriters pushed a
22:11
Speaker 1: more progressive female narrative. But because it was two thousand one,
22:14
Speaker 1: the studio said no. At least there was an effort
22:18
Speaker 1: made to give but you know, that's just that's dream.
22:24
Speaker 1: But it is something to consider, Like, the studio definitely
22:28
Speaker 1: had some impact on this script, I hope. So. I mean,
22:32
Speaker 1: it's the narrative now that every time I see a
22:37
Speaker 1: movie that doesn't treat women well or at all that
22:41
Speaker 1: is written by a woman, I sort of go to.
22:43
Speaker 1: We talked about this in the Frozen episode a little
22:46
Speaker 1: bit where there's for some reason, it's very well documented
22:49
Speaker 1: how many notes the writer of Frozen, woman named Jennifer Lee,
22:53
Speaker 1: got during the course of making that movie, where the
22:57
Speaker 1: original way the story was written was way more aggressive,
23:00
Speaker 1: and it's pretty well documented where she was getting the
23:04
Speaker 1: notes of like this has to change, or we're not
23:07
Speaker 1: going to make it. This has to change. That's great.
23:09
Speaker 1: That makes me feel better in some at least gives
23:13
Speaker 1: you some hope in that you're like, writers do want
23:17
Speaker 1: to tell these stories. It's not that they don't want
23:20
Speaker 1: to tell it, it's that men with a lot of
23:23
Speaker 1: money usually don't want to show it. Yeah, I don't.
23:27
Speaker 1: It's an empty It does give me some piece, I
23:30
Speaker 1: will say, it does give me some peace. Hopefully these
23:33
Speaker 1: like studio heads will start to learn that we're die honestly,
23:39
Speaker 1: probably die first. They will likely die before they respect
23:42
Speaker 1: women and then hopefully be replaced by more progressive people
23:47
Speaker 1: who are willing to fund movies that showcase women in
23:51
Speaker 1: a more positive light and you know, not adhere to
23:55
Speaker 1: such rigid gender rules. Here's hoping. And with that, let's
24:00
Speaker 1: take a quick break and then we will be right back.
24:03
Speaker 1: Good idea, Klin, thank you so. A little bit more
24:11
Speaker 1: about what happens in the Two Towers. We are hanging
24:15
Speaker 1: out with a win a little bit and they're heading
24:18
Speaker 1: to helms Deep because all the people of Rohan are
24:21
Speaker 1: in danger because there's sarmons like launching an army on them,
24:24
Speaker 1: basically classic class. He loves unleashang. So they get attacked
24:31
Speaker 1: by some orcs on these ward creatures and uh, Theadin's
24:37
Speaker 1: are like a win like lead the people to Helm's
24:39
Speaker 1: Deep because the men will fight, and she's like, no,
24:43
Speaker 1: I can stay in fight, and he's like no. So
24:45
Speaker 1: she's like trying to make a choice, like trying to
24:47
Speaker 1: be active in the story, and a man is like, no, sorry,
24:51
Speaker 1: you can't. You have to take all the women and
24:53
Speaker 1: children who are so vulnerable and um put them in
24:56
Speaker 1: caves so that they can be protected. He um. So
25:02
Speaker 1: that's pretty much her role for the rest of the
25:04
Speaker 1: movie is that she is stuck in a cave with
25:06
Speaker 1: all of the other women because she is not allowed
25:10
Speaker 1: to fight. Meanwhile, Legolis and Ghimli are making a literal
25:14
Speaker 1: game out of war. They're like, let's see who can
25:16
Speaker 1: kill more people? Won't that bring some levity to war? Yes,
25:22
Speaker 1: well kill more kind of people. Yeah. The ural Kai, although,
25:28
Speaker 1: is there like a racial thing we should address with that,
25:31
Speaker 1: because I just call them kind of people and I'm like, well, okay, yeah,
25:35
Speaker 1: let's let's try to unpack the racism and the Lord
25:38
Speaker 1: of the Rings trilogy for a moment. We can start
25:42
Speaker 1: with the racist hierarchy of wizards. In the books, there
25:45
Speaker 1: are like brown wizards and they're a lower class uh.
25:47
Speaker 1: And then there's gray wizards and they're above brown, and
25:50
Speaker 1: then the white wizards are the highest class with the
25:53
Speaker 1: wizard hierarchy. My understanding was the goal is to get
25:56
Speaker 1: as white as possible exactly. Yes, literally, the wher you get,
26:00
Speaker 1: the more powerful you are. So that does not set
26:02
Speaker 1: a great precedent right away. The goblins, the Orcs, the
26:06
Speaker 1: uru Kai, like all the bad guys generally have darker
26:10
Speaker 1: skin compared to all of the good guys in the movie,
26:14
Speaker 1: which are you know, men, The Hobbits, the dwarves, the
26:17
Speaker 1: elves are all white as can be. Oh, there's a
26:21
Speaker 1: fun video where you can see a super cut of
26:24
Speaker 1: all of the lines in the whole Lord of the
26:27
Speaker 1: Rings trilogy spoken by actors who are people of color.
26:32
Speaker 1: Believe it or not, they all play bad guys. And
26:36
Speaker 1: it's only it's like less than a minute long. It's
26:39
Speaker 1: just some of the uru Kai who are like get
26:41
Speaker 1: a fire going, and that's pretty much. It's so no,
26:45
Speaker 1: it's so much worse than I want to believe. Also,
26:50
Speaker 1: so in the second and third movie, the bad guys
26:53
Speaker 1: and more door are recruiting mercenaries to like fill out
26:57
Speaker 1: their army of orcs, so we do see some human
27:01
Speaker 1: people but all of their like recruits are dark skin brown,
27:06
Speaker 1: come from land's foreign to whatever, like Anglo Saxon esque
27:11
Speaker 1: fantasy world that Middle Earth is. It's so vague. It's
27:14
Speaker 1: like it's so racist vague. And Peter Jackson makes the
27:20
Speaker 1: same huge misstep in King Kong, which is like at
27:24
Speaker 1: its core, the racist story that won't die, Like why
27:29
Speaker 1: do they keep making that? There are some things that
27:33
Speaker 1: keep getting rebooted there like this time we're going to
27:35
Speaker 1: fix the root problem. I was like, you can't. That's
27:37
Speaker 1: what the story is about, just make a different one,
27:41
Speaker 1: making a different one. And there is like a weird
27:44
Speaker 1: attempt to like have quote unquote racism where dwarves and
27:49
Speaker 1: elves hate each other because when we first meet Gimleian Leglis,
27:53
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, gross dwarf and he's like, I'll never
27:56
Speaker 1: hang out with an elf, and then they become friends
27:58
Speaker 1: by the end and they're like, well, it's weird because
28:02
Speaker 1: it's like you can read. I think Tolkien probably meant
28:06
Speaker 1: for this to be an allegory towards groups within humanity
28:10
Speaker 1: and like demographic groups, but it's weird when you do that.
28:14
Speaker 1: And I don't think that Lord of the Rings stands
28:17
Speaker 1: alone in this I think I think a lot of
28:18
Speaker 1: fantasy fiction falls into this trap. But it's weird when
28:22
Speaker 1: you're allegory is like, look at our divisions and factions
28:26
Speaker 1: and prejudices, except we're going to erase any people of
28:30
Speaker 1: color and we get all white right. Like it almost
28:33
Speaker 1: seems like these narratives are attempting to be like, let
28:36
Speaker 1: us put this in terms, you are comfortable with white
28:41
Speaker 1: people and all like in in the same you know,
28:46
Speaker 1: like batch of scenes completely disparaged the only people of
28:49
Speaker 1: coloring the entire movie. Oh man, I can't call them
28:54
Speaker 1: not quite people and what kind of people? Oh and
29:00
Speaker 1: so yeah, between all of that and the fact that
29:03
Speaker 1: pretty much every good guy in the movie has blue eyes,
29:05
Speaker 1: Like not that many people in the world have. Like
29:09
Speaker 1: the ratio of blue eyed people to non blue eyed
29:12
Speaker 1: people in Middle Earth is like fifty two one. Sorry
29:16
Speaker 1: to our blue eyed listeners. I I see you, I
29:19
Speaker 1: respect you, I cherish you. I'm not sorry, guys. I'm
29:23
Speaker 1: also half Swedish, so like I have a loud of
29:25
Speaker 1: resentment toward blue eyes, you know, because I didn't get them,
29:30
Speaker 1: which is fine, I'm fine with it now. But when
29:32
Speaker 1: I was in middle school. You better believe I wore
29:34
Speaker 1: contact like I did. Yeah. My mom was like, you
29:37
Speaker 1: want to fix it. You can get highlights too, and
29:41
Speaker 1: I did. She was, you know, she just wanted to
29:44
Speaker 1: make me more arian. I don't think there's anything wrong
29:48
Speaker 1: with that because you're part Cuban r Yeah, she wanted
29:53
Speaker 1: to stamp out the bad part. To know, the Cuban
29:56
Speaker 1: part is great. Uh, Like, I'm getting myself in trouble.
30:00
Speaker 1: It's hard to on this show. It is so hard
30:03
Speaker 1: to not dig yourself a holeway do it regularly. It
30:07
Speaker 1: is a part of the process. We contain multitudes. I'm problematic,
30:11
Speaker 1: you know what. I love Orlando Bloom He's like kind
30:14
Speaker 1: of trash. The rumor is that he just undresses all
30:17
Speaker 1: the time, which you've what like, he he just gets naked.
30:25
Speaker 1: That's why there is that photo of him naked on
30:28
Speaker 1: the paddle boat or whatever the picture. Yeah, because he is.
30:32
Speaker 1: It's like a known thing in dressing rooms that he
30:34
Speaker 1: just strips down doing hair and makeup, which comfortable. Yeah,
30:38
Speaker 1: you're that's sexual harassment. Yeah, but me hearing that at eleven,
30:44
Speaker 1: I would have been like, that's so I want to
30:46
Speaker 1: see that. Yeah, they're so open with his co star. Yeah,
30:50
Speaker 1: oh my god, I wish I could be in a
30:53
Speaker 1: movie with him where he's naked. So jealous of a
30:56
Speaker 1: live tyler. All right, she doesn't kids under my Lecholis
31:00
Speaker 1: doesn't kiss. He's a hacker in this he literally doesn't
31:03
Speaker 1: get me. He's too busy. He's like, where our computers?
31:07
Speaker 1: Computers to be invented already? He probably invents computers in
31:12
Speaker 1: this world. We don't. We don't have learning before, but
31:15
Speaker 1: if we did, it's called Legois Colon hacker. He's certainly
31:20
Speaker 1: got the bandwidth for it because he's not interested in
31:23
Speaker 1: the emotions of others and has no romantic interest. He's like, like,
31:27
Speaker 1: do you remember the party with legolists that made me?
31:30
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, he's a hacker. Was right after
31:34
Speaker 1: Gandolf was like see yeah, and you know Free fell
31:38
Speaker 1: off a cliff and everyone thought he was dead. Everyone
31:41
Speaker 1: is displaying emotion in the way their character would. Hobbits
31:45
Speaker 1: are openly crying. Are Gorn is like he's over it?
31:51
Speaker 1: Gimli is crying yeah. The Legolis is just standing there
31:55
Speaker 1: like where are you people cry? He's like, I'm not
31:58
Speaker 1: gonna He's like, I'm not gonna right for a couple
32:00
Speaker 1: of days, and even then it will be by myself,
32:03
Speaker 1: like I'm a hacker. Quick thing to bring up the
32:08
Speaker 1: Hobbit again. There is like a love triangle that involves
32:12
Speaker 1: him and that tari Al character that gets shoehorned into
32:15
Speaker 1: the Hobbit trilogy. So I thought maybe Leglis was a sexual,
32:20
Speaker 1: but he is. Um. I prefer Legolis who does not fuck.
32:25
Speaker 1: I think so too. I think that was his official title. Yeah,
32:30
Speaker 1: Leglis who does not fun Colan hacker, son of Megalis
32:36
Speaker 1: who did fun to have or maybe this is just
32:41
Speaker 1: the correct combination of Zeros and once he was made
32:45
Speaker 1: by a computer. I think Saron is a computer. Okay,
32:49
Speaker 1: all right, Saron who does not have blue eyes? He
32:52
Speaker 1: has one eye and it is red yellow fire eye
32:56
Speaker 1: it is. But what was it before that? Right? We
32:59
Speaker 1: don't seek he's wearing a mask. But a few things
33:02
Speaker 1: also to mention that happened in Return of the King
33:05
Speaker 1: Um about a half hour in our way is she
33:08
Speaker 1: has made a decision, going against her previous decision to
33:13
Speaker 1: go to elf Heaven after all. And then that's when
33:16
Speaker 1: she sees the vision of Airgorn and her small child,
33:19
Speaker 1: and she decides to turn back, and she's like, well,
33:22
Speaker 1: if I have the chance to be a mom, I'm
33:24
Speaker 1: gonna go and do that, and I better have a son, right,
33:29
Speaker 1: Motherhood is great. I have a mother and um not
33:32
Speaker 1: like you guys. So I'm not trying to disparage mothers
33:36
Speaker 1: in any way or motherhood, but it's so often that
33:39
Speaker 1: a woman's motivation in a movie is motherhood and if
33:43
Speaker 1: she isn't a mother, and it's just like, really, I
33:47
Speaker 1: don't West Girls are problematic show that I constantly apologize
33:51
Speaker 1: for and for sadger to watch. But Bandy Newton's characters
33:55
Speaker 1: motivated by a child that is fate that like they
34:01
Speaker 1: designed for her to have. It's some planted memories and
34:03
Speaker 1: they still ran with it to the end. Right Computers.
34:09
Speaker 1: Similar thing happens in like Kill Bill, where as soon
34:12
Speaker 1: as the bride finds out that she is pregnant, she's like, well,
34:15
Speaker 1: I have to drop everything and become a mother, even
34:17
Speaker 1: though I had never expressed that I wanted to be
34:20
Speaker 1: a mother up until now. So it's just a thing
34:22
Speaker 1: we a trope we see in a lot of movies
34:25
Speaker 1: and media where it's just like, you know, a woman,
34:29
Speaker 1: the idea of motherhood if that is an option for her.
34:32
Speaker 1: She's like, oh my god, Like this is motivating my
34:34
Speaker 1: every decision, especially because we know so little about our
34:38
Speaker 1: win Outside of that, that's like I think that's the
34:40
Speaker 1: main deciding thing. It's like, it's, you know, obviously, if
34:43
Speaker 1: you want to be a mother, that's totally fine, and
34:46
Speaker 1: like we we at the Bechtel Cast will not prevent
34:50
Speaker 1: you from doing so. I will, but I mean I will.
34:54
Speaker 1: I've I've stopped a lot of pregnancies, but not abortion
34:57
Speaker 1: or anything. Just like I've come in and stopped it
34:59
Speaker 1: from coming out. Yeah, She's like, because I will just
35:03
Speaker 1: turn on West World and all of a sudden, no
35:04
Speaker 1: one will be horny anymore. I'm so many orgies I
35:08
Speaker 1: have killed putting on the finale of West World the
35:13
Speaker 1: worst episode. But because we know nothing else about our win,
35:17
Speaker 1: that's why that choice is so lazy. Yes, right, Um.
35:22
Speaker 1: And then the big thing, the big you know, gender
35:27
Speaker 1: thing that happens and the whole freaking trilogy is when
35:32
Speaker 1: a Wyn disguises herself as a man, she puts on
35:35
Speaker 1: this big helmet. Yeah, yeah, exactly. She pick she picks
35:41
Speaker 1: up Mary. She's like, we're going to fight in battle together.
35:45
Speaker 1: No one wants us to, no one's allowing us to
35:47
Speaker 1: do this case be moushoe. Is that the dragon? Yes,
35:51
Speaker 1: m dragon, yes, yes, sorry, I need to make this move,
35:56
Speaker 1: I understand, have you guys done? So? Okay. So then
36:00
Speaker 1: so they ride into battle together, even though everyone's like
36:04
Speaker 1: women can't fight, and she's like, well, funk all that
36:06
Speaker 1: funk the patriarchy. I'm going to fight in this war anyway.
36:10
Speaker 1: And it's been established that the King of the Nasal,
36:13
Speaker 1: the Ring Wraiths, he he's a bad guy. But you
36:21
Speaker 1: said ring Raiths as if it was it would make
36:24
Speaker 1: us understand, like, oh, yeah, yeah, you know the Ring Ring, right,
36:28
Speaker 1: you know. I was like, yeah, yeah, So the King
36:32
Speaker 1: of the Nasgal his whole thing that's silly. Okay, sorry,
36:39
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about. So the whole
36:43
Speaker 1: thing with him is that he is unkillable. No living
36:47
Speaker 1: man can kill him, is what is said in the movie.
36:51
Speaker 1: So in battle at the end of the Return of
36:54
Speaker 1: the King, Awen is fighting. She is slinging her sword around.
36:59
Speaker 1: She's bad, guys, sort of. We don't get to see
37:02
Speaker 1: her fight that much. But then she is confronted the
37:05
Speaker 1: King of the Nascal. I don't know if he's named
37:07
Speaker 1: but not. He's right there and she's like, oh shit.
37:10
Speaker 1: She chops off the head of his like whatever dragon
37:15
Speaker 1: not smiled, but whatever flying winged creature that he is on.
37:19
Speaker 1: They fight a little bit and he's like, you idiot,
37:23
Speaker 1: no man couldn't kill me, And she's like She pulls
37:26
Speaker 1: off her mask and she's like I am no man
37:30
Speaker 1: stabs him through the face. His head implodes. John Jams
37:34
Speaker 1: start playing It's crazy. So this is I think, supposed
37:42
Speaker 1: to be this like big empowering moment for women where
37:45
Speaker 1: it's like, holy crap, we thought that he couldn't die,
37:52
Speaker 1: but she was a woman, so she can kill him.
37:57
Speaker 1: Voice the rules of this God. The rules of this
38:08
Speaker 1: make no sense and are not explored at all, but
38:10
Speaker 1: we're still supposed to be like, holy freaking crap. I
38:14
Speaker 1: hate when a movie is requesting that I emptily yes
38:18
Speaker 1: queen at the screen without using my brain. I don't
38:23
Speaker 1: like it. It is one of the things that annoys
38:25
Speaker 1: me most in movies. I hate it, but sometimes it
38:27
Speaker 1: works on me. Sometimes it works, and then I get
38:29
Speaker 1: even madder at myself. Later, Man, you fell for it,
38:32
Speaker 1: you got represented, you get too excited. You didn't realize
38:35
Speaker 1: it and make a fucking sense. Yeah. Yeah, it feels
38:39
Speaker 1: empty because logically this doesn't really make any sense, like
38:44
Speaker 1: why would a female identifying person be able to kill
38:48
Speaker 1: something that a male identifying person isn't able to kill?
38:51
Speaker 1: Like these rules are just like not explored at all,
38:53
Speaker 1: and it it feels like a hollow victory. Here's my
38:56
Speaker 1: apology of it. Maybe it's the myth is that no
39:02
Speaker 1: one can kill him, No man can kill him because
39:04
Speaker 1: he's such a good fighter. But he finally met the
39:07
Speaker 1: best fighter who can kill him. But that doesn't This
39:11
Speaker 1: gets back to another thing that annoys me and with
39:14
Speaker 1: female characters. How could she be the best fighter if
39:17
Speaker 1: no one formally really ever taught her. This is her
39:20
Speaker 1: first time in battle, ever fight costume to fight the
39:27
Speaker 1: first time she's done it, that's true. I guess she
39:29
Speaker 1: never says this is my first rodeo. He would have tips.
39:34
Speaker 1: That I hate is that she gives it all up
39:37
Speaker 1: to be with Faremire at the end. Right, Yeah, so
39:41
Speaker 1: she's got her like hollow yes queen moment in the
39:45
Speaker 1: end of the third movie. And then yeah, and then
39:48
Speaker 1: she becomes like sort of like a fair maid and
39:50
Speaker 1: like the rest of them where it's like, oh, well,
39:52
Speaker 1: my role now that there's no wars to be had,
39:55
Speaker 1: I can just hang out with this faremire guy and
39:59
Speaker 1: fair was considered for this role interesting too powerful. Now
40:03
Speaker 1: they're like, she's her face is too sharp. She is
40:06
Speaker 1: she looks like we need someone who looks more submissive.
40:10
Speaker 1: That's literally what it says. She looked too mean. And
40:14
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I love when people to say
40:16
Speaker 1: this woman looks too mean. Yeah, people said that to
40:19
Speaker 1: me all the time. I have resting mean face. And um, anyway,
40:24
Speaker 1: I think you have a resting great face. Thank you,
40:27
Speaker 1: And if you don't want to be happy, it's still great.
40:30
Speaker 1: I know. Thank you so much. Hey, let's take a
40:33
Speaker 1: quick break and then we'll be back. One more thing
40:40
Speaker 1: on on a and I'm reading is According to the
40:45
Speaker 1: DVD commentaries, an entire set piece firmare au En wedding
40:49
Speaker 1: scene was actually filmed and ultimately cut and not even
40:54
Speaker 1: included in the extended edition, Nor have any photos of
40:58
Speaker 1: the scene ever been made public, but the scene has
41:01
Speaker 1: been described by multiple sources of they went so far
41:04
Speaker 1: as to have them get married on screen, so well,
41:11
Speaker 1: at least they cut it from the movie, but also
41:13
Speaker 1: the fact that they considered it to the extent where
41:15
Speaker 1: they wrote and filmed it is troubling. Come on, well,
41:20
Speaker 1: I what money are they rolling with where they were
41:24
Speaker 1: just like, we're not even gonna show this scene to anyone?
41:27
Speaker 1: Was it the whole thing? I don't know. I'd be
41:30
Speaker 1: curious that, Like, maybe that's again, I keep going back
41:33
Speaker 1: to the female screen rights. Maybe they're like no, but
41:36
Speaker 1: it already got past them because they built a set,
41:38
Speaker 1: damn it. Maybe hey, maybe there was a female producer
41:43
Speaker 1: at the last minute who was like, we can't and
41:46
Speaker 1: that was like her falling on the sword, like that
41:48
Speaker 1: was the last the only thing she could say, right,
41:52
Speaker 1: And her name was Uma Thurman, also Owen and fair
41:56
Speaker 1: mirror Mary in the books. Apparently great, so he has
42:00
Speaker 1: to end up with a man, maybe not the one
42:03
Speaker 1: she wanted originally, but you know, you can't be a
42:05
Speaker 1: woman in a story without ending up with him hand
42:08
Speaker 1: and this is ironic, Okay, faremir and a o And
42:11
Speaker 1: had at least one sin l Baron and their grandson
42:15
Speaker 1: was Bara Here who wrote the Tale of Eric Gorn
42:19
Speaker 1: and Arwin. Oh, why was her grandkid being like, remember
42:23
Speaker 1: this guy and my grandma didn't fuck. Here's a story
42:26
Speaker 1: about him and his wife. Well weird. Do you think
42:29
Speaker 1: they passed on the lore of like, well, grandson, there
42:33
Speaker 1: was a man I wanted to fuck, but didn't pass
42:37
Speaker 1: on this legacy to grandpa, like you know who? I
42:44
Speaker 1: was my first choice, Not this guy. I hope, So,
42:49
Speaker 1: I really hope. So wait. I just remembered a female
42:52
Speaker 1: character that we did not talk about yet. Oh my god,
42:55
Speaker 1: the dead bones of the dwarf who died she Lob
43:00
Speaker 1: the spider. The pronouns used for she lab are female pronouns.
43:06
Speaker 1: So I think what we can say here is for
43:10
Speaker 1: she lab feminist icon. No, no one in this movie.
43:15
Speaker 1: I didn't even talk about feminist. So cute is a queer.
43:22
Speaker 1: I love him. He's so gone, is so expressive, and
43:27
Speaker 1: his eyes are so big, and he has this gigantic head.
43:33
Speaker 1: I love him. I just need everyone to know. Of course,
43:38
Speaker 1: I had a crush on Golub and I don't understand
43:42
Speaker 1: so he's always He's and Andy genius. No, but Caitlin
43:46
Speaker 1: can let's not. I No, you do it. You assumed
43:55
Speaker 1: the position. I'll do it, and then I'll probably cut
43:58
Speaker 1: this out. Okay, Well, do you want to hear gall lumber?
44:00
Speaker 1: Do you want to hear I'd surprised us. Yeah, okay,
44:03
Speaker 1: here we go. Um My, Bresh, it was perfect. It's perfect.
44:15
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's perfect. It's not great. It's not my
44:26
Speaker 1: best work. Give yourself some credit. Yeah, we've been talking
44:31
Speaker 1: for a very long time. I feel like we need
44:35
Speaker 1: to wrap up. We didn't talk about did we talk
44:37
Speaker 1: about the mom On the right? There is two female
44:41
Speaker 1: characters with lines. Well, should we talk about whether or
44:44
Speaker 1: not this movie passes the pectel tests? Yeah, I guess
44:46
Speaker 1: that fits in. Okay, so there is one Well, there's
44:50
Speaker 1: two scenes that are contenders. So let's try to figure
44:54
Speaker 1: this out. In two towers. The second movie, Orcs and
44:57
Speaker 1: Oroquai are invading Rohan, and there's a mother. It's it's
45:03
Speaker 1: a it's a horse country. Um, it's where it's where
45:07
Speaker 1: Captain E. J. Smith of the Titanic, that's his realm
45:10
Speaker 1: and his wig and his wig right the way that
45:13
Speaker 1: controls his thoughts. So they're about to get invaded by
45:17
Speaker 1: the bad guys. And there's a mother who says to
45:21
Speaker 1: her son and her daughter. She's talking to the boy
45:26
Speaker 1: at first, and she says, get on the horse with
45:27
Speaker 1: your sister and go to someplace and raise the alarm,
45:32
Speaker 1: and the little girls like, I don't want to leave.
45:34
Speaker 1: I don't want to go, mama, And the mom says Freda.
45:38
Speaker 1: So we find out her name, Freda, I will find
45:42
Speaker 1: you there, and then that's it. And then they ride
45:44
Speaker 1: off on the horse, and we do find out what
45:47
Speaker 1: her name is in terms of the character. But I
45:51
Speaker 1: don't think it's ever spoken a lot by the movie.
45:53
Speaker 1: I don't think it is either. So yeah, I would
45:56
Speaker 1: argue that that I wanted it to pass. But I
45:58
Speaker 1: think if we're going by the movie, I don't buy
46:02
Speaker 1: the arguments, like, well, she had a name in the book,
46:05
Speaker 1: and it's like, so did Brett Mackenzie's character, and people
46:09
Speaker 1: just renamed him fig Wit for no reason. Also, well,
46:15
Speaker 1: if you consider the subtext of this conversation, like the context.
46:19
Speaker 1: In the subtext, she's basically telling them to leave because
46:23
Speaker 1: there are several male warriors coming about to like raid
46:28
Speaker 1: their village. Yeah, you shall not pass the test. In
46:33
Speaker 1: the scene, right, you shall not pass. That's my Gandolf
46:39
Speaker 1: impression also very good, okay um. And then later in
46:44
Speaker 1: the second movie, Freda is eating soup somewhere in Rohan,
46:49
Speaker 1: Aowen is there, Freda says where is Mama? Aowen says
46:55
Speaker 1: sh And that's that conversation. That is as close as
47:01
Speaker 1: we get because those characters are both named. But I
47:05
Speaker 1: would argue that a Owen that is technically a conversation.
47:09
Speaker 1: That's it's communication, communications, verbal communications, a line of dialogue.
47:14
Speaker 1: It depends. I would say, no, here, okay, I'm gonna
47:18
Speaker 1: go and say this movie does not pass the backtel
47:20
Speaker 1: test because even if you wanted to argue the technicalities,
47:23
Speaker 1: there's thirty seconds or less of this movie of women
47:26
Speaker 1: interacting in a movie that is over nine hours long
47:30
Speaker 1: shall not pass. Yeah, so this movie does not pass,
47:38
Speaker 1: even though it maybe seems like it comes close. And also,
47:41
Speaker 1: when we say movie, we mean three full three hour
47:44
Speaker 1: bucking movies. We didn't have We didn't discuss one conversation
47:48
Speaker 1: that happens in the first three and a half hour movie.
47:51
Speaker 1: There's nothing to discuss. And those characters, the mother and
47:57
Speaker 1: her daughter afraid to only appear in those two scenes.
48:00
Speaker 1: They have no bearing on the story, like their scenes
48:03
Speaker 1: going to be cut from the movie. Uh, and it
48:05
Speaker 1: really wouldn't change anything. So yeah, the movie doesn't even pass.
48:11
Speaker 1: I guess to up the stakes of the people of Rohan.
48:15
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I'm going to say that this movie
48:17
Speaker 1: does not pass. And of course that's not surprising at
48:21
Speaker 1: all because there are so few women in this entire
48:26
Speaker 1: world of Middle Earth. It's weird because my ex boyfriend's
48:30
Speaker 1: mom was named Darwin because her parents loved Lord of
48:35
Speaker 1: the Rings. Yeah, but how sad too. She was named
48:40
Speaker 1: after this like deeply unfeminist movie by like a very minor,
48:45
Speaker 1: minor character who gets her parents were like, she's a
48:50
Speaker 1: feminist icon because she's there, because she's literally we had
48:54
Speaker 1: three choices. We did what we could do. Gladriel was
48:57
Speaker 1: too hard to say. Awen is a ejjectively not a
49:01
Speaker 1: very good name name. Oh hell, gang shall rerate the
49:08
Speaker 1: movie on our nipple scale. Hey, what choice do we have?
49:12
Speaker 1: We don't have a choice. Yeah. Our nipple scale is uh.
49:18
Speaker 1: We rate each movie based on its portrayal and representation
49:21
Speaker 1: of women zero to five nipples. I'm between a zero
49:27
Speaker 1: and a half nipple. I'll go with a half nipple.
49:31
Speaker 1: The movie has a few women in it, great, um,
49:34
Speaker 1: not enough, not enough screen time. I guess that it
49:38
Speaker 1: gets a half nipple instead of his zero nipples because
49:41
Speaker 1: of a Owen's presence in this story and the fact
49:44
Speaker 1: that she has a goal outside of being in a
49:48
Speaker 1: romantic relationship with a man. Also, glad Reel doesn't have
49:52
Speaker 1: that goal, but she's basically there's an exposition. Yeah, she
49:56
Speaker 1: has no goals, So a Owen has as a little
50:01
Speaker 1: bit of agency. But it just everything feels like a
50:04
Speaker 1: hollow victory with her and with every female character in
50:08
Speaker 1: the story, just because they're mostly framed around the other
50:12
Speaker 1: men in the story. There's a love triangle that makes
50:15
Speaker 1: no sense to be there. Glad Reel serves a pretty
50:19
Speaker 1: flimsy function just to like deliver exposition, and she has
50:23
Speaker 1: pretty much no bearing on the story. Like it's just
50:26
Speaker 1: it's upsetting, Like, like you said, Jamie, that movie isn't
50:29
Speaker 1: outwardly hateful toward women, and then it's not like saying, oh,
50:33
Speaker 1: women are gross and bad, but it's also not giving
50:38
Speaker 1: them any chance to do anything in the narrative. So yeah,
50:44
Speaker 1: I'll give it a half nipple, um, even though I
50:47
Speaker 1: think that's being generous and my half nipple will go
50:52
Speaker 1: to small. I canna give it one head of one
51:00
Speaker 1: nipple because I can't give it zero because it's, like
51:05
Speaker 1: you said, it is not a franchise that is openly
51:10
Speaker 1: contemptuous of women. But I think that there is the
51:14
Speaker 1: argument that in some ways it that's even a little
51:17
Speaker 1: bit worse because at least when you revisit a problematic
51:20
Speaker 1: film franchise, you're just like, oh, I don't want any
51:22
Speaker 1: part of this anymore. This is out of my life.
51:25
Speaker 1: And hopefully, if history continues in the direction it is,
51:28
Speaker 1: it will be a franchise that is by the way,
51:31
Speaker 1: so I've forgotten because people just don't want to see
51:33
Speaker 1: that anymore. But with this film franchise, because it does
51:37
Speaker 1: not put women down and just ignores them, it won't
51:41
Speaker 1: go away. There's not enough of a reason for people
51:45
Speaker 1: who enjoy these movies to not continue to watch them,
51:48
Speaker 1: because they're not espousing, you know, like bile at you.
51:52
Speaker 1: They're not they're not saying shitty things. They're just erasing.
51:56
Speaker 1: And that is almost like a little bit worse because
51:59
Speaker 1: it's like, these movies will never go away. There's nothing,
52:02
Speaker 1: you know, because on paper, they're like, well, you didn't
52:05
Speaker 1: say anything bad. They just erased everyone. They didn't want
52:08
Speaker 1: their um So that sucks. I guess a o en
52:14
Speaker 1: and that's why one tenth of one nipple and I'm
52:18
Speaker 1: giving it to smount you know, uh, well, you know
52:24
Speaker 1: what I am going to give this. You gave it
52:27
Speaker 1: a half, you gave it a tenth. I'll give it
52:30
Speaker 1: like a fourth of a nipple, because I do think
52:34
Speaker 1: a one's a wins. Uh you and McGregor, that moment
52:40
Speaker 1: is something I think it's very hollow. It's but it's
52:43
Speaker 1: what so many movies do where it's like, here's something.
52:45
Speaker 1: It's what the entire movie of Wonder Woman kind of was. Yeah,
52:51
Speaker 1: it felt kind of like I want to revisit Wonder
52:53
Speaker 1: Woman because I think even a year later, I would
52:55
Speaker 1: feel it different. And I was riding a high at
52:57
Speaker 1: the time. Oh I think I cry I'm watching it
53:01
Speaker 1: because I was like, this is beautiful. But that's the
53:03
Speaker 1: thing when I watched Lord of the Rings then versus now, then,
53:07
Speaker 1: I was like, oh cool, this is fine, no problem.
53:11
Speaker 1: B Glade Drill talks a lot, and there is a
53:15
Speaker 1: step worse, which is Master and Commander, which has no
53:19
Speaker 1: women except for once, and it's when they're like googling
53:22
Speaker 1: and they're like a hot woman, what about the latest
53:25
Speaker 1: and then there's the latest Chris Nolan movie, Boy City. Yes,
53:30
Speaker 1: also Dunker Ocean Ocean Full of Boys. Yeah, well, at
53:33
Speaker 1: least like Master and Commander has been forgotten, like no
53:37
Speaker 1: one revisits that Dunkirk. I don't think anyone's going to
53:40
Speaker 1: be like Boy Ocean forever. I don't think hopefully, hopefully
53:44
Speaker 1: they have the same fate. But yeah, so I think
53:46
Speaker 1: there is a step worse. Can't give it a zero.
53:49
Speaker 1: And of course I give that fucking quarter of a
53:51
Speaker 1: nipple to my hero. Her smell gi is a sheet
53:56
Speaker 1: for my purposes, Her majesty the Queen about that gives
54:02
Speaker 1: smile from a different franchise of one nipple. One last
54:09
Speaker 1: thing I do want to say is that she Lob
54:12
Speaker 1: is a spider. Spiders have eight legs. This is Spider
54:17
Speaker 1: Facts with Caitlin. I'm glad Alfred Billina was not in
54:20
Speaker 1: these movies. I think he very easily could have been,
54:23
Speaker 1: But I think he was busy, and I think what
54:25
Speaker 1: he was busy with with was Spider Man taking bad news.
54:28
Speaker 1: He was too brown to be in this movie. He
54:30
Speaker 1: was literally and and he's white. It's a high bar.
54:36
Speaker 1: Good Jesus that that may be true. Well, Anna, thank
54:40
Speaker 1: you so much for being hearing you too. This was delightful.
54:43
Speaker 1: It is truly an epic, an episode about as long
54:46
Speaker 1: as the movie franchise itself. So you're welcome everybody where.
54:53
Speaker 1: Can we find you on the web. You can find
54:55
Speaker 1: me at Bad Comics with an X by Anna with
54:58
Speaker 1: two ends on to Graham, I make a web comic
55:01
Speaker 1: about anxiety and depression. And also thank you my lactose intolerance.
55:07
Speaker 1: I'm very allergic to cheese, but I'm in love. I
55:10
Speaker 1: eat it every day. It's my struggle. Um. And you
55:14
Speaker 1: can also find me on Twitter same handle and uh
55:17
Speaker 1: performer used to be my show, The Pickle Hour. Jamie
55:23
Speaker 1: is a many time returning guests and Caitlin, we gotta
55:27
Speaker 1: have you want. I'd love to do it anytime. That
55:31
Speaker 1: will set it up, so we have to do it
55:33
Speaker 1: right now. Um. Yeah, this has been a lot of fun.
55:36
Speaker 1: Thanks for Jamie. I know that you were reluctant to,
55:39
Speaker 1: you know, talk about an eighteen thousand hour movie. I'm
55:43
Speaker 1: such a bit and still I still enjoy this trilogy.
55:48
Speaker 1: It is very bad at women, but I will watch
55:52
Speaker 1: it periodically for the rest of my life. Probably at
55:55
Speaker 1: least we have smog. We have. You can find us
56:02
Speaker 1: online Twitter at back Teldcast. You can find us on Instagram.
56:07
Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook. It can contribute to
56:09
Speaker 1: our Matreon five dollars a month is two extra episodes
56:14
Speaker 1: of listener requests only except for when it's our birthdays
56:18
Speaker 1: and then we picked uh so so join up. It's
56:21
Speaker 1: super fun and and a fun way to participate in
56:24
Speaker 1: the community as well. We love you, You're great. Thanks
56:27
Speaker 1: for listening and our sine