Latest / Skin Anarchy / Karen Chambers, Executive VP of Impala Inc./IMAN Cosmetics and CEW Board Member

Transcript

Karen Chambers, Executive VP of Impala Inc./IMAN Cosmetics and CEW Board Member · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Level 4 has arrived.
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  SPEAKER_00: Available now, rated and premature.
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  SPEAKER_00: Tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so this episode is actually very, very, very special to me.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: It is probably one of the most candid, open, honest, transparent, all those great words, um, conversations I've ever had the privilege and on you know honor of having.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I really want hope you guys all want and hope you guys listen to this very um carefully and really take away something from it.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, if you have something to add, I can't wait to hear your thoughts.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I wanted to take a minute and I want to shout out because our anniversary is coming up.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Skincare Anarchy LLC will officially be one year old on the 20th, which is uh this Saturday, and I have a very special episode uh planned for you guys that will be released that day.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: But um, you know, I really want to take a minute and I want to thank every single woman, man, individual, um, from, you know, either a person of color or somebody from a background that really has never been represented properly, you know, um, everyone who has come on to our show.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, obviously, I think every single human being that has come on to our show.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: You guys are phenomenal people.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: You are the reason we are here, but um, just to name a few, I want to thank Sarah Wu as one of the first editors to ever give us a chance.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Sarah, you're amazing, and um, your support means the world.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Marianne Michowski, uh, who is a freelance beauty editor and copywriter.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Marianne, you're amazing as well.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, uh, Dr.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Lara Daveon, I learned so much from you.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: You are truly a pioneer in medicine and surgery, and I'm uh, you know, I've been so honored to interview you.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Rushi Roy, founder of Avrani Skin.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you have a beautiful brand, Rushi, and I love the work that you're doing.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being one of the first brands to come onto our show and giving us a shot.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, uh Faith Cummings, who is a copywriter, editor, um, journalist.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Faith supports every single post we ever made.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Faith, you are really truly um, you know, you you bring faith you know into my life uh for our podcast and for the future of Skincare Anarchy.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for everything and all the support you show us every single day.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um Janelle Hickman, who is also a beauty editor, um, and she's a communications uh strategist.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Janelle is an amazing person and she's a really, really talented individual.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um Christina Rudolfo, who was also another um editor, and she's she's the beauty she was the beauty director of women's health at the time when she came onto our show, and now she makes amazing content um for her audience on you know her social platform.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: So definitely give her a follow.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um who else?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Kayla Greaves.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, Kayla Greaves, you are truly a star, Kayla.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I um learned so much from you when I interviewed you, and again, you were one of the first um, you know, journalists and uh especially an award-winning journalist and beauty editor um from Install Magazine.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: You're the first to come onto our show, so thank you for all that you taught me and everything that you shared.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was wonderful.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Dr.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Corey Hartman, you are really, really amazing.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: I love your humor.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: I love how you make dermatology so easy to understand.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um we had a really cool conversation, Dr.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Hartman and I, and um, you know, I just I really adore your work and I and I'm a huge supporter of you as a medical professional and a colleague.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, so thank you for the opportunity to interview you.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Jui Wong, uh Jui, you are an inspiration.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um you really are somebody I I think is a leader in this industry.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think the the the work you've done and the things you're creating are truly extraordinary.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you, Dewey uh of Olaplex.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: She's the CEO of Olaplex, and she was one of our very early guests.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, also uh Jennifer Norman, who is the founder of the Human Beauty Movement.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Jennifer is one of the kindest individuals I've ever met.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: The work she's doing is truly phenomenal, it's so meaningful.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh thank you, Jennifer, for coming onto our show so early on.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um Dr.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: uh the Hubble Panusali, uh love your work.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, um you are also the closest to a GQ model that I've ever seen in the medical world, uh, especially as an Indian male.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: I love all your posts.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: You are so cool and definitely so brilliant.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, everyone, if you need, you know, go follow him.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: He's amazing, he's a laser surgeon and dermatologist, also one of our very early guests.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh Jenny Jin, who was the beauty director at Pure Wow at the time.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh also I want to highlight Dr.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sybil Val, who is a plastic and reconstructive surgeon.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: She is one of the very few black women in surgery that we have in the medical field um as of now, and she's truly a pioneer in so many different ways.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Safat and Nish from uh Aray.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: You guys have just such the most beautiful products, and your products are really meaningful and they actually work.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: For those of you who have clinical anxiety, I really, really suggest uh investing in um Array.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Array is the correct way to pronounce it, and it's it's a beautiful brand.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, who else?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh obviously, you know, one of my favorite brand, um, you know, Niod's uh chief uh scientific officer Purvi Kaka, Purvi, you are truly brilliant, and your conversation left me with so many questions and so many answers.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for the honor of coming onto the show.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um Vade Chun, who is a phenomenal makeup artist, he is uh really, really uh just very talented and very innovative with the way that he does makeup, and he's very um detailed with his approach.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for um coming onto the show early on as well.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, this this list is very long, guys, but I I really have to do this because it's so important for me to highlight each person who has given us a shot.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: And all of these individuals are extraordinary people.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um so, anyways, moving on.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Ron Robinson.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Ron, I absolutely adore you.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: You are brilliant, you are truly a genius.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um chemistry is a very difficult field, and Ron is truly a master.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: I recently actually quoted Ron on our recent uh informative post about vitamin C because he was kind enough to give me some comments about anhydris versus aqueous uh formulation.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you, Ron, for everything for coming on to the show.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to have you back.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: I love everything you're doing.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so proud of the success we stat has had.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: You deserve every second of it.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um Kia James, uh CEO of uh, you know, Tailored Beauty, um, and she's also an entrepreneur, and she's just wonderful.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: She's a she's a star, like a YouTube star, and she's uh a guru to so many young women out there, young men out there that really want to understand how to do their makeup or beauty routines.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's really important for us to have people like Kia because there's not enough people representing um, you know, just the younger generation that really wants to learn about themselves and how to make themselves feel better.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Also, of course, of course, one of my favorite people ever, Heidi Brown.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Heidi, you are such a star.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: You are so kind and so just extraordinary.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: I absolutely adore Heidi.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: She is the CEO and editor-in-chief of Brilliance by Brown, which is a phenomenal publication and website.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: You guys, if you have not checked it out, please go and check it out.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Heidi and her team do such an amazing job of highlighting um brands and products that really work for um, you know, melanin-rich skin and are just genuinely practical everyone can use.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: So definitely, definitely go check them out.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Anissa Tilard, thank you so much.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Anissa Beauty is amazing.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: The brushes are phenomenal.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Lori King of uh of Care Beauty, she is Lori's amazing.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: Lori's genuinely she's a leader, and so is Celeste, who's they're both co-founders for Care Beauty.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um Cora Miller of Young King Hair Care.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: I love that I love Cora because she's created a brand um that is truly filling a white space for um young, you know, young boys that uh of color that need specific hair products.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can't use the same hair products um for all the all hair.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that Cora's created.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: She's you know a rock star in her own niche.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, so many people, right?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Tisha Thompson, oh my god, LYS Beauty is one of my favorite brands.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm absolutely obsessed with it.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, every product they make is beautiful, it makes your skin glow, it makes you feel so beautiful and radiant.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I wish Tisha that your brand existed when I was growing up as a teenager because wow, even my mom loves your brand, by the way.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Please shut up.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um also Land Belinky, thank you so much.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Bocha is such an extraordinary brand.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: It is one of my favorite, all-time favorite brands.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you are truly a leader in this industry, and your work is phenomenal.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: And Bocha continues to just make the most amazing products.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um Saharan Sahar of uh Sundry.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I love your brand.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: I love Sundry.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's a beautiful brand.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I just I love everything you guys are doing, so never stop.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um Andrea Liz Bona, who is the founder and CEO of Touchland, her work is wonderful.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Touchland is such a great company.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: They do so much charity work, they contribute so much uh to the community that you know they're really catered to.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I really, really appreciate you guys.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Camilla Pirotti, who is the founder, founding partner of Sol de Pinero, and she is just amazing.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: So uh Camilla, thank you again for coming onto the show.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Ricardo and Pilar, um, you know, you guys are just phenomenal.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Ricardo and Pilar Pindero are the co-founders of Care Beauty, C-A-R-E, period, beauty.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, they're just phenomenal people.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: They were some of the first to support us.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they always support us, they're always behind what we do, and they're it's just it means the world to us.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Chris Young and uh uh Chris Young came onto our show, but uh also his um partner in the company, Gina Kim.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: They are uh both co-founders of uh this amazing company called Circumference, the beautiful line circumference is really, really just it's such a gentle line, but it's so effective.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: So definitely go check that out if you're looking for a new skincare uh product to dive into.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, just there are just so many people you guys um that I love, and every single one of them is just it's they're phenomenal.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um also Ziad Haloub, uh you are the founder of Separate Club Skincare.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Super Club Skincare, you guys is one of the best up-and-coming lines.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: It is truly a beautiful, beautiful line.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: Ziad has really put in so much culture, knowledge, and innovation into these products.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: So huge shout-out uh to the whole team.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I just the main thing that I'm trying to do here is just, you know, really let you guys know that this industry is founded on a principle of, you know, have everyone included, right?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: And some of the people that are working in this industry to make that happen um have given me the immense honor of coming up to skincare anarchy.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: So just to round up um my shout outs, uh Kyoko Gets, you are so kind, you are so wonderful, probably one of the nicest people I've ever met, also extremely knowledgeable.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: She is a true veteran in the skin health space as an aesthetician.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: She's a master of her craft.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so definitely go check out Olura Skincare.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um Simran Kalara, you have she's the founder of Holby.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Halvey is a platform that is basically e-commerce for skincare brands that really work and they make people do your own algorithm, and it really matches you up with some of the most amazing products that you can use for your skin.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Janelle Haley of Olika and Tarasana.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Janelle, you are such a wealth of knowledge.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: I absolutely loved interviewing you for the Queen Beauty panel.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: You really, really shed so much light on so many topics that really needed to be discussed.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, just as a roundup, guys, um, you know, thank you so much to everyone I mentioned and everyone else I didn't get to mention.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, every single person, we have published over 220 episodes at this point in less than a year.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, every single person that's come onto our show, you are a standout human being.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: I do not invite people onto the show that I don't believe in.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: I just don't.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not in my DNA, it's not what I believe in.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I just I can't do it.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: So every single person, thank you so much.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the brands like, you know, Revlon and Victoria Beckham Beauty and uh Scenseuticals and uh Gillian uh Gorman Round of uh K Rice and, you know, just so many extraordinary brands and people have come and um honored us, you know, Carmen Paul of Markin Oil, just you know, Ray Morris.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can't even, you know, I'm not gonna go through my whole list, but you guys get the point.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I I'm just so honored, so humbled, and I can't believe it's already been a year, but we have grown so fast, and I love how we are continuing to grow.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, thank you to all of the PR executives out there that reach out to us and give us these opportunities.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: I can't thank you enough.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: So you guys really keep the show going for us.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, you know, we're doing great, guys.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: We have uh reached a point where we are now having over 9,000 uh downloads per week for the show.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's growing every day, and I can't believe it because when I started the show, it was just literally like nobody.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was uh maybe like five people listening, but um it's crazy, and I love it, and I couldn't have done it without all of the amazing guests.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Really, you guys are the reason that we have all these people coming on.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much, and everyone who listened to me rant now for uh quite some time.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's been about 15 minutes.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening to all of that, and I really mean it, you know, when I say thank you, and I wanted to preface this episode because this episode is really amazing.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Karen has given me the opportunity to share a lot of really, really important information with the audience here, and I can't thank her enough.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: So uh stay tuned and just you know take what you can from this episode.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, guys.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Hi guys, welcome back to Tear Anarchy, and I have the best guest ever today for you guys.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: I have been truly following her work, her just real impact in this industry for um a few months now, and I'm just so honored and so grateful that she had the time to come onto our show, especially with the holidays coming up.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Karen Chambers, who is the executive vice president for Impala Inc.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: and Iman Cosmetics, as well as a board member for CEW.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, welcome to the show.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Karen, thank you so much for making the time for this.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's such an honor.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I really can't wait to talk to you because I have been just, you know, dying to get your perspective and your your, you know, just insights into this industry, especially from the angle of inclusion and diversity.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, but I want to start off.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: I want to actually talk about you first and um your career journey because I know you've um you've done some fantastic things in your career, and I'd love for you to kind of go back into memory lane and walk us through all of that if you could.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sure.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a lot of years, like decades of being in.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I stop and think about it.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: I feel so useful certain days, and I'm like, oh my goodness, wow, it's been a long time.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I I just have had an incredible, incredible career.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um before even the industry was talking about inclusivity and multiculturalism.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: I really had the the good fortune of starting out very, very early, even right outside of college, uh, working on brands and and working on initiatives that really centered women of color in the beauty industry.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I majored in communication in college, but I always had like this passion for beauty, and it really came from a personal place because you know, at the time, kind of growing up uh in the 70s, 80s, um, there there really wasn't a lot as far as uh inspiration um for people who looked like me.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I personally had you know my own journey with beauty and with with trying to find the right products, etc., and things that that worked for me when I was younger and just really never found them.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was really, really fortunate early on to get involved with with brands like uh Flori Roberts, which was a uh a brand that was run a long time ago, uh, that was really centering women of color, and where I got an opportunity to just get my hands wet in all facets of the industry, working on shades and colors and campaigns and working with models and copy and all that in ways that were very affirming uh for myself and affirming for other women who look like me.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I've been super fortunate to throughout most of my career to have been able to work on inclusive brands again, even before that was the general conversation in the industry, and to have really grown up, uh really cutting my teeth, uh working with with with those type of brands and those types of experiences.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's been a lot of years and a lot of growth and to uh be able to come out at this place uh in in in 2021 with the industry emerging as much as it is around this conversation, it's it feels very fortunate.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: It feels very fortunate.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, we are fortunate to have you here, you know, in in this industry.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we need we need this perspective.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that you mentioned that you've been, you know, from the beginning, you've been dedicated to this and you've really, you know, um had this at the center of your career because, you know, there's not a lot of people who can say that.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I I just I I know that the word inclusion and the word diversity is thrown around so much these days that it really for me it makes me wonder, you know what I mean?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like in terms of like, well, where's the real work?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, where who's doing the real work?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: And like, so you know, just listening to you go through that, like it's just an example of if you're if you're actually somebody who's genuinely dedicated to diversity and inclusion, like you better have a portfolio similar to King because you know, like it's it's pretty easy to see through the BS if you ask me, you know, if it's not.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, I really um I really want to actually ask you too, is like, you know, when you after all that experience and just seeing um all the growth in the industry, all the changes in the industry, you know, how what's your perspective now?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, at this point when you look at um inclusion and diversity as in an overall umbrella topic, you know, for the beauty industry.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we're we're in the middle.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we're in the middle, and I think that it's important for people to recognize that this is not a one and done, and and this this can't be something that we perceive as a trend.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, our industry uh for for many, many years has just simply been about what's kind of on the surface, you know, what's the latest color story, what's the latest buzzword, etc.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that when we're talking about people's lives and their lived experiences and their cultures, it has to be far more than just we've got 50 shades, we've got a hundred shades, look what we did, let's pat ourselves on the back.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: To me, no matter what we're selling, um, if you're in some kind of a commercial enterprise and you're not looking at people, you're not looking at human beings, then you're really missing the mark.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, with the stage we're now between the pandemic and all of the racial awareness and awakenings that that have happened over the past couple of years, I think consumers are telling us that, you know, our our our lives are not segmented anymore.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: What you know, we're working from home, we're you're integrating, you know, how people raise their children, and then they've got to be on a Zoom meeting, and that, you know, all of these things have all converged together.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I bring that up because if we're not looking at what is the real lived experiences of our consumers, like what's she thinking about, what's important to her, then we're missing the mark.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and what one of the things that I recognize, particularly when the pandemic hit, we were going through so many different um emotional and political and social things in the world, um, one of the things that that we did at Amman was just to stop and and and take a look, like right after everybody went into quarantine and say, what are we, what are we going to be talking about as a brand right now?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like it just wasn't the time to say, oh, let's just launch something sparkly.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, our our our consumers are are traumatized.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like everyone's traumatized.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so to separate out our true feelings about life and the realities of life, and just say, let's just do make-believe, uh, what would have been really, really tone-deaf.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think um brands just really have to just start to look at look at who look at who works for their company.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, look around.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, are are our own people happy?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do they do they feel engaged with the brands they're working on?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, what are our are the consumers saying?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: All we've got to do nowadays, we just have to buy really ginormous um reports about consumer uh insight.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, now all all we have to do is really go to our Instagram page and go, oh, they're saying this and they're saying that.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and and so I think what I'm what I'm getting to is that um if we're not taking a look at realities is in terms of how people live and how they feel and how they think, then we're completely missing the mark.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I I've been really grateful to have had the opportunity between what I've done in my day-to-day brand work and and what I've had the opportunity to be working on over the past couple of years with CEW, is to really take a look at what do people think and feel and how does that impact um what they do in relation to this industry and how can we be uh better partners with our consumers around uh these real life issues.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's really my take on it.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I love um so you you touched on so many topics that I very rarely hear, you know, anyone really discussing.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think these are very so crucial, you know, and so um center point, you know, uh just like you said, because for example, you mentioned the culture aspect, and I really resonate with that because I think um whenever I look at brands that are quote unquote inclusive, it's like you said, it's like, oh, we've got 70 range shades of foundation.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, cool, dude.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Now you just made it even worse for me to try to navigate, you know, like what I need.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then now I'm doubting my own skin tone because I don't, you know what I mean?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like it just it's almost like it's like a um it's a very fast fix for a very multi-layered problem.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And also the culture aspect I wanted to say, um, I really love that you said that because, you know, as a a fellow woman of color, as as someone who, you know, I really, really um relate to what you said in terms of like, you know, for beauty, like for me, it was very similar.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, obviously, you know, different time frame, but I never found anything that really resonated with me growing up either.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I can tell you that it would have been pretty cool to see a brand that was not only making my shade, but also keeping in mind things that come with my skin tone.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, for example, I come from a you know a conservative family, you know, being Indian, Indian parents are very strict.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: So keeping in mind I'm not gonna wear that full face of makeup.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: I would need something that's going to be um, you know, more natural looking, but still makes me feel beautiful.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: So those are aspects that I think have to be incorporated, you know, just like you mentioned from a cultural standpoint.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: So um I really love that.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: I really, really love that piece um out of everything that you just shared, because it it's something that I don't see anyone doing really.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: If I can add something to that, you know, and we've also got to not be afraid to make mistakes and to get in and and like you mentioned, really doing the work.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was thinking back the other day, uh, you know, I I I just finished a uh certification with inclusivity and diversity.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that we had to do, and this is always the tough thing, is to assess ourselves and our own biases.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now, as you mentioned, as a woman of color, I could very easily be very arrogant about that and go, well, no, you know what, this is my lived experience.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I'm not biased.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I think back to um to projects I've worked on many, many years ago, when I was taking some of the the findings I had around African American women, for example, and applying them to Latin.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I had worked on not at the Imam brand, but years ago, I had worked on a brand that that has since very much gone away, and I understand now and in retrospect why.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was utilizing the same data for one group that that that you know should have been trying to need for another group of people with multi-layered cultural um understandings that needed to have some some research and some have those women in the conversation with me before we ever put out a single product.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I look back now and and and and I can.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Admit to this because it's important for us to be able to say when we've gotten it wrong, and that's how we learn.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and and so I think it's it's super important what you what you just mentioned, even about your own culture.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: That is so paramount because beauty is just not a one and none, and it's not just a matter of what matches, it's a matter of what fits within that woman's lifestyle, within her family, you know, and and and if we're not willing to peel back some of those layers a little bit, you know, we don't have to be uh sociologists, but but to peel back some of those layers to really understand and care about our consumers, then we're liable to get it wrong.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing is, if we get it wrong, are we willing to do the homework to get it right?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the thing.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And when companies um or anyone becomes arrogant about this this subject matter, uh that that's just a setup for failure all the way around.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I I believe in staying staying curious.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's one of my favorite slogans for myself is stay curious.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm stealing that, by the way.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Stay curious.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, I completely agree.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I it's like for me, you know, I just want to focus uh for a second on Iman cosmetics because honestly, for me, I can honest, I can definitely, definitely say that like it has been one of, if not the hallmark brand in terms of inclusivity for me.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when I look at Iman cosmetics, immediately I think this is something that I can relate to.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is something, this is a place I can go to for my concerns, my beauty needs, and I'm gonna fit in.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be, you know, accepted that idea.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: So like I know that you've had such an integral role, you know, that you've played in the, you know, the whole brand.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I would love for you to talk a little bit more about your work with Iman and and, you know, just uh really uh that journey for you, what it's been like, and um and maybe you give us some examples of some projects you've really enjoyed or, you know, anything that you want you want to share.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I well I well first I remember I was working for a competitor when Iman first launched the brand.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember sitting at my desk in Chicago and going, oh my god, she's about to wipe every other brand, including mine, out of the water.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're in trouble now because it was so innovative.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: We hadn't seen brands talking about multiculturalism.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: We had seen brands that were targeting black women, wonderful, amazing, all those heritage brands.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: We love them and appreciate them.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and then we had seen, you know, some general market brands again beginning to add a few darker shades at that time.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: But this was the first time that the industry had seen a brand go, we are really looking at inclusivity, not looking at a person's race, but looking at their skin tone in relation to respecting their culture.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we are always, always going to have models of various backgrounds, nationalities, even age ranges, um, included in the messaging and included in the product development.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a thrill.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was about 15 years ago when I came to work on the brand and I started on the product development side and then became marketing director, and then um recently the past uh three or so years as executive vice president.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: But that whole journey was just really remarkable and really learning from Iman herself, number one, just having the confidence to uh at a time when the industry really needed a lot of education, uh being willing to be in that uncomfortable place and taking even buyers through uh being in an uncomfortable place, you know, with with new languaging, with new attitudes uh and and and new introductions towards the industry, you know, being adamant, hey, we don't want to necessarily be in some segmented part of the department store.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's important for this brand to be in a space that's inclusive because at that time inclusivity again wasn't wasn't being discussed.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and so some of my most exciting initiatives have been number one, being able to take things on the market like um like mineral makeup and and and BB creams and CC creams when they launched.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And initially, those those launches within the industry did a lousy job when it came to having great shade ranges and and formulations that worked for women with skin of color.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so being able to remember that dive in, oh my goodness, it was like whoa.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: White cast, white cast everywhere.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you absolutely know.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly what it was with a lot of the mineral makeup, and people love like, oh my god, that's natural, it's minerals, and then they'd put it on their skin and go, well, wait a minute, this looks horrible, you know, or even dealing with SPFs or uh, you know, a lot of if you've used if you use the wrong type of SPF ingredients, you wind up again with that white cast.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: And similarly, oh forget it, the first BB creams, um, we know that the you know, that that initially when they came out on the market, you had maybe a fair and a medium.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like, but our customers were like, wait a minute, we are loving this idea of this technology.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: What's up with not having shades for us?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: So being able to get in that game and and work with chemists to to and pushing them, we had to push them to be like, oh no, no, you're gonna get there.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: We are getting there together to be able to uh modify and and and really start from scratch to create uh those types of products because all this range of women across the globe deserve to have all the latest formulations and technologies that work for their skin tone and skin type.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we can get there, but it we have to prioritize it.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's uh one of the things that you know has been so beautiful over the years working with Iman is that this this consumer is the priority.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't, it wasn't like a last-minute thought, not an afterthought.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: She was the first thought.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and that really changes things.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and then, you know, just having it's it's very odd, or not odd necessarily, but when your founder and your CEO is also an end user, it shifts the culture of the organization and it shifts the perspectives of how we create because there's a vested interest there, you know, and and and a lot of times when this customer is just the subject matter and isn't near and dear to the hearts of the people who work there, um, then then it's easy to get it wrong.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: But but one of the things that that I can tell you in all honesty is that almost every single batch that came through that uh brand um over those 15 years were tried on me or or someone else on the team.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we didn't have that distance between, oh yeah, it matches on paper or under a computer or what have you.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, everything had to make sure that it worked on skin of color from you know someone who's like, you know, golden-y and and medium complexed to somebody who was the deepest, richest ebony.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was an amazing experience, you know, or has been to be able to just be very laser focused on this consumer.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's been an incredibly exciting journey, and I'm and I'm I'm grateful for it.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: I love everything you just shared.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, you know, I can I can say that, you know, one thing I I've taken away from just what you've explained here is that like um for brands, and this is for everyone listening, if you're an entrepreneur and you want to get into like the in terms of like you know, complexion products and stuff, like this this is exactly like listen to what Karen is saying because honestly, if you use your products on actual real people, women that want these products, or you know, even if they're in your company, things like undertone, things like um, how does it look if you know five hours later after wear, all of those questions, they just come out and they are answered and they're unfolded right in front of you.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: You're not going to have to, you know, because here's what I really dislike this, Karen.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm I'm honestly, I don't know if you agree with me, but I'm gonna say it like I really dislike the brands that are like, well, we have a lot of market research to do before we can launch 20 more shades.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, uh, no, you what you need is a door-to-door salesman to go into the neighborhoods of the demographics or you know what I mean?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Just somebody in two of your product, it's about relationships and connecting.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way, makeup is such a personal thing, there's no way to do this well and be disconnected from your customer.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: There, there, you know, it's like it it was quite simple.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: If Imam would not wear it herself, it was not getting launched.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and if we in the office would not wear it ourselves from the accounting department to the the folks in advertising to you know to to customer service, you know, it it we we had to like it and love it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that that that kind of entrepreneurial spirit, no matter the size of the organization, that kind of connection with the product and with the customer, um, I think is pivotal.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you said it, you know, there data is a great thing, it's a wonderful thing, don't get me wrong.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: But there comes a point, and I remember um one of my early, early mentors said, Karen, some people have lipstick in their blood and some people don't.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, some people have a feel for this thing that you can intuitively know, like, that's not quite right.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, even that shade name, that that that doesn't hit right.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and like you mentioned, I started my career honestly behind the counter, also.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I and I was the girl back all the way in high school who was doing everybody's makeup for the prom and everything else.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the way something laid down on the skin, like you said, how did it look five hours later?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Was it shiny?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Was it greasy?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Was it oily?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Did it cover?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Did it not?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like those were things that intuitively I knew if it wasn't going to work for me and the people that I knew in real life, you know, and also and no shade to Instagram and social media, we love it.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: But also, the everyday woman who's walking in the store or going online to get that product, it's also, you know, not sitting in front of a camera with uh an hour and a half to spend doing like a whole thing, you know, doing, doing like this and then this layer and add that and that and that, you know, she wants to look like you mentioned yourself culturally, she wants to look like herself, but just an enhanced version of herself nine times out of 10.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because she's going to work, she's going to pick up the kids, she's going to do the things she's doing in her life.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not thinking like a real human being, then again, like you're, you're, you're, you're losing, like for me, why we're in this industry, why we're doing what we're doing.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, that personal connection, never, never, never losing that um has been pivotal for me.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, I actually want to share a story with you because I think this is, I think you're one of the few people on this planet that would understand what I mean with this story.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Genuinely like, so I um immigrated to America at a very young age.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was about four years old when I came here.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the first schools I went to, it was literally called, it was the magnet school.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was called Academy of World Languages.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: And um the first young women of my age group that I met and I connected with because I had no friends, you know, I barely spoke English.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: I was learning English.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, the first few women that I connected with were um young black women of my age group.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: And they showed me what a lip balm is.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: They showed me, you remember those little like um those little uh like uh tubs or you know, lip masks now come in them, like the little containers.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: I know exactly what you're talking about.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so those they showed me that and they showed me like, you know, they would play with my hair, they would make me feel so loved and so beautiful.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And to this day, in my heart, there's a special place for um, you know, just black women, black culture, everything associated with it because it was the first culture.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: And notice I'm saying culture, you guys.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying skin shape.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's the first culture to accept me.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: And also, I want to say this, and this is the part I think you're gonna get is at one point I remember I had asked from one of my friends from that, from that uh peer group.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, well, why don't why do you guys have anything we can put on our faces?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, something like because you know, you're a kid, you see everybody wearing the foundations and all that, you know.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: And they were like, you know, they didn't have an answer, even as kids, they didn't have this answer, but they were like, oh, you don't need that, you know, just just wear the lip gloss and wear that, and you know, it's almost like they worked around it.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: And now when I'm grown up and I'm able to look back, that breaks my heart.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: That these these young girls didn't even like it's like they had to, it was an adversity that they were overcoming and they weren't even realizing.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's that is what hurts me when I think about it.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I really want, I really want brands to understand that that that is why culture is important.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: That is why, because you what you're doing is not just impacting women that are fully grown and now we're in our careers and we're not.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're impacting future generations, how they look at themselves, what they think they can have and what they think they can go into a store and buy versus not.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it's well, you hit you hit it.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you you hit so many important cultural points there.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, when I when I over the years, when I've listened to Mon and what her original uh impetus behind the brand was, was starting out as a model um in the fashion industry and having makeup artists ask her, Did you bring your own foundation?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have nothing for you.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, imagine, you know, you're there with your peers, et cetera, you're getting ready to go on the catwalk, and a makeup artist who is supposed to be skilled in how to do uh, you know, all kinds of different people, go, oh, you didn't bring your own.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's that whole thing, you know, now we've got language for it, talking about microaggressions, and what you expressed was was a microaggression that these young women were kind of dealing with in terms of feeling like nobody had something that invested in them in terms of their beauty.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: So they kind of, you know, just kind of had to level, level out their own expectations, go, oh, but we, you know, we but we have these bombs.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is part of what has been a driver for me in in everything, right down to the models that we select, to the talent, makeup artists, hairstylists, et cetera, is making sure that there's a space for all of these talented people to find themselves within this industry and be able to be recognized for their talents.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, not as not as an afterthought or what have you, but really that wow, somebody considered me, my skin tone, my lifestyle, my family, my looks, my talents, et cetera, my culture as being valuable because they are all valuable.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a similar upbringing to yourself.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um I was born in Jamaica, my family came to the United States when I was two, so I completely can relate to that that mindset of also being an immigrant and learning the culture, et cetera.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and also I think that that's been valuable to me because it's it uh I remember Sidney Poitiers uh talking in in one of his uh autobiographies where he said, you know, he came from, I think, uh, I think it was the either Bermuda or the Bahamas, and he said that, you know, everyone looked like him in his culture, and then coming to the United States, he's like, it was foreign for him to even understand why people would think less of him or expect him to think less of himself.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I don't understand that.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you come from your own culture and the beauty is there within the culture, you know, you're you're elevated within your own culture, and then somebody else uh thinks less of your culture, it's it's it's it's it's utterly ridiculous and unfathomable.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that um that that that is one of the things I've tried to carry with me is absolutely not, all of our cultures are beautiful and and and meant to be celebrated.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm here for the celebration for all the cultures and all those little black and brown and golden and every other skin tone young young ladies and young men who are out there who do also deserve to be celebrated.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'm here for it, and brands and and and those of us, you know, who have the uh the the privilege of being in the industry need to be here for that too.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's my personal feeling.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: I love that, and I love what you said because you're so, oh my gosh, you are so like I feel like we are twin flames genuinely because you really get it.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: You really, really get it.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I had the same conversation, I kid you not, with my mother because she was, I was having a really, really tough day, you know, and I I can tell you, you know, being a woman in medicine, I go in there and I'm not gonna lie to you, it's a white male-dominated field.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you go in there and you're seeing a lot of things, and there's a lot of um, you know, I hate to say it, but there's a lot of discrimination that is very much subtle, but it's easy to pick up on if you know, you know what I mean?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you know, you know, right?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so like I was having this conversation with her, and I just I I remember it was a day and I just felt terrible.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just I felt very down, you know, just one of those days.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: And my mom was like, well, why?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't get it, you know, with you and your your insecurities and especially with like how you look and all this stuff.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I looked at my mom and I was like, mom, you grew up in the country that you're from.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: You were surrounded by from a young age till you were grown by women that looked like you, that had that were talking the same language as you, that were, you know what I mean, in the same they were immersed in the same culture as you.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: So you can't tell, like it's a very different thing when you are growing up in such a blended uh country and in and geographical location because you have to go through those steps of finding out who am I, how do I fit in, and where do I fit in?
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a really hard thing to do.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: And we put that on our kids every day, and it's something that, you know, I think, you know, we all deal with, but at the end of the day, the beauty industry in my eyes, it's it's a place of love, it's a place of acceptance.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: And we should not never settle for something less than that from this industry.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the hands down, like, period, you know what I mean?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like there should be no excuses because this is the one place, and I always say this is like it's the one place for me growing up, and I know a lot of women growing up that I felt like I could express myself through some sort of artistry or you know what I mean, just some creative way.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we should never have this problem in a in a space like this.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: And also, like I wanna I want to get your opinion on this because this is something I've been wanting to talk about is shade names and getting used to seeing dark and very deep shades and naming them in a way that doesn't like elicit emotions.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because honestly, I'm not gonna lie to you, a lot of, yeah, okay, a lot of brands out there have added shades, okay?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: But some of the names of these, yo, like I'm sorry, no one who wants to be, you know, I have a lot of uh biracial friends and and and one of them actually a male, he's told me, he's like, I hate when people say I look like how they want their coffee.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: He said that to me.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: He was like, I hate that.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: I hate hearing that.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that is a real problem.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you don't want to name a shade called coffee creamer or whatever the hell, you know what I mean?
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like, don't because that that makes people feel weird.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's so I want to get your opinion on that.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like, just you know, the whole process of like, okay, you came up with shades, but now what are you gonna do with them?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right, yes.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: That and and that's a tricky thing.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that it again comes back down to who's in the room, right?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah because there are certain things when I'd imagine with when you're with your friends and with your family, right?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: There are things internally that you can say and ways of talking about things that are internal to the culture, and that it's okay as far as an internal conversation.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: When we're talking about uh something as public, as a product and a shade name, etc., it's and something that's going to um go out to a lot of different types of people.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: It is absolutely critical and important to think about how that thing is termed so that you know we're not accidentally offending someone.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: I will never forget working on a brand.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: I won't say the brand name.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and and I inherited the brand.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: I came on board, it had already been a very mature brand.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the previous brand manager had come up with some concepts for a um a campaign, and one of the shades was called monkey shine of a lipstick.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: I kid you not.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I went to the dictionary and monkeyshine means something very different.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think I don't know if it means exuberance or whatever, I don't remember what it means.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: It means something very different from how it sounded.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I knew that if we launched a campaign with a shade called Monkey Shine, the feedback we would get would be reaching and who wants to wear that?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: So this person, unfortunately, you know, whatever the theme of the campaign, the the term and its literal meaning fit into the theme, but that just showed a lack of cultural awareness for the brand of the city.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's called being retarded, Karen.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's like literally, I'm sorry.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: We don't listen to that word anymore either, but I learned from my class.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: No, I know that we're not supposed to use the word retarded anymore.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: I get it.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, medical books have told us we're not, even as doctors, but for real, that's retarded.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's I mean, honestly, if you can't understand that the word monkey has been used in multiple Racial slurs and multiple terrible, terrible ways of putting, you know, like this incredible adversity on people.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: You are completely clueless.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: You need to reevaluate your life because that's just unacceptable.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: Crazy.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: This is, this is, you know, this is this is how this is how deep some of this goes.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I would imagine this person, I don't, I don't know who who she was, but she may be a lovely person, et cetera, et cetera.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but it just was a lack of investing some time and some thought into what am I doing and how's that going to impact that person.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: So getting back to your original question about shade names, you know, I think, okay, now you're about to get me into a deep conversation.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if we're going there or not, but let's talk about let's let's talk about colorism because we know both of our cultures struggle with this, right?
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: So so it is it is a challenge to make sure that we are dealing with sensitive topics that are sensitive for folks.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: And in and of itself, light and dark are neutral terms, but we know that there's there are cultural implications attached to these things that have to do with hierarchy, you know, because of Western society.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, let's face it.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we're dealing, so for example, uh when when, you know, even prior to me arriving at Iman, you know, the decisions were made to categorize the uh shade ranges for the brand into sand, clay, and earth versus light, medium, and dark.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: So her thought process was about the earth.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: What are things that relate to the earth?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and and that is something that we can all have a healthy respect for.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so within that, I think it it deflated some of the feelings around lightness and darkness, lightness and darkness, and what all of that means.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, that's but that always stays in the forefront of my mind is what does that end user feel?
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, I want her to celebrate her deep skin tone.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: If she is a deep ebony chocolate, again, you know, I'm sorry for the guy who had a problem with the coffee, but I I'm a I'm a foodie.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Chocolate is fine, GC love, right?
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: The chocolate, you know, she's deep chocolate.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: I want her and to celebrate that deep chocolateness.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that now we're evolving into a space where that where our culture is saying, wait a minute, lighter is not better, you know, and and let's dismiss any of those ideas that put something negative around melanin-rich skin.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but but people still have a lot of sensitivity and a lot of pain points around these types of issues.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say in a in a general sense, um, it's just important to listen, it's important to care, it's important to be engaged with people, it's important to know whether that person is, you know, South Asian or East Asian or Caribbean or African American or where whatever, to understand a little bit about her culture, like get into her a little bit where you have an understanding and that you just don't go and step in it, but that you're getting some understanding about what's going to feel good for her.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day, we all want to feel good when we put our products on, you know, from the shade match to the shade name, right?
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's about caring for me at the end of the day.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's about caring.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it is.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely 100%.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's about caring.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, honestly, here, you know, I'll I'll I'll even tell you, you know, one day I got into this argument because it was a very racially charged argument, okay?
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I and it triggered me a lot.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: And this is something I really want to discuss on air because triggers are real, okay?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: There are people, especially black women and men of this this country specifically, are dealing with generational trauma, okay?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: Of generations worth of trauma.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: So when they get mad, you can't look at them and say, Well, why are you getting so upset over something so small?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because you just triggered something psychologically.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: And this is something that I think people need to understand because I had gotten into an argument with this uh this woman once, and she, you know, she was like, Well, Ecta, and I and I didn't curse at her, but I got I I got a little loud, you know, I'm not gonna lie, I got a little loud and you know, and and I and I was like, you know, very upset.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it genuinely upset me.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so I got a little loud and she was like, Well, no one has ever spoken to me like this before.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: And this this woman was, mind you, Caucasian, and and you know, and I looked at her and I paused and I said, Well, now someone has.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully you won't do this again, you know, and it was like the only thing I could come up with because I'm sitting here and I'm like, what makes you feel like you're so above being talked to like that when you are talking about a topic that is triggering me?
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: So imagine how a black woman or a black man or someone who's really dealt with it even worse is gonna feel if you say the same thing you just said to me to them.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: Just think about that.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what really for me, like I think people need to understand that the idea of no one's overreacting, you know, when they get upset over a name or like a word, they are being triggered, and we have to remove those triggers.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's the number one rule in psychiatry.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: If you go to any psychiatrist, they're gonna tell you, you know, remove the things around you that trigger you.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: And as a beauty industry, as a beauty culture, we have to be good to our people and our customers and our employees, and we have to remove those triggers.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's that was my point.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because we're we're in the industry of personal products.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Personal is the first word, yeah.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so if if you know, and and it comes back to what I said before about caring.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: If you care, then understand number one, you are not going to know everything.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: You've not walked in other people's shoes.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so coming back to the work um that that that that I've I've absolutely enjoyed doing with CEW and back to the research that got done um, you know, uh in in preparation for for the the forum that we did a few months ago.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's oh my gosh, I've been wanting to talk to you about that on September 30th.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: You guys had that amazing, yeah, yeah.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was unbelievable to actually be able to gain quantitative and qualitative data that supports these kind of anecdotal things that number one, I knew, you know, I I I've been black my whole life.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I've known in the industry, outside of the industry, when there've been microaggressions, when people have said things that are inappropriate, when, you know, like this woman you said, when there's a certain arrogance about people's tones that dismiss my experience.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've known that and I've known my peers to experience that, but to now have it on paper documented so that people can really look at it and go, oh my goodness, wait a minute.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't just that so and so is sensitive or so and so, you know, uh is taking things out of you know, blowing things out of proportion.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, you've got a group of people who are saying, wait a minute, this is pretty much what happens on the regular.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: You just are unfamiliar with it because you're not walking in your shoes to even see it.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so that has been absolutely validating and incredible, and and something that that I think you know, every industry, if they were to do that type of research, would find very similar stories because this this is this is what's real.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I'll never forget um having a very, very wonderful, well-meaning boss say to me one time, and she was white, um, she's like, Karen, you're so articulate.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and she really thought she was giving me a compliment.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, really?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, now, if I looked different, knowing that I went to college, I'm a professional person, I've been working in this industry in a directorial role for quite some time.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: Would you have expected me to be anything other than articulate?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, so clearly you've shown me that your expectation of me from a hierarchy standpoint was lower because of my skin.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you literally just, Karen, I'm not gonna, I'm not trying to interrupt you, but you literally just summed up the the series, the slogan of my other podcast.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's literally called White Collar Brown Girl.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: And my slogan is just because I talk, like just because I sound educated doesn't mean I'm a white girl.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's literally what I have as my slogan.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because what you just said, because of what exactly what you just said, because I deal, I have dealt with the same thing.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: People being like, oh, well, you talk like your wife.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you mean I sound educated?
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's because I am.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_02: By the way, because you have to come on that podcast too.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: We need to like have that little thing.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because that one sounds good too.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: I am happy to come on there because I think it's it's and it's so important, and I I I'm hoping that really diverse audiences listen to your podcast around these because that is so much firsthand information that would help somebody else to get a lived experience understanding of what this conversation is all about.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't, you know, the books are great, it's great, read all the books, but listen, when someone like yourself creates a forum and a platform for people to really hear the real deal about what's going on in the inside, that's like gold.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope people are eating up all of these things that you're doing to give kind of this cultural awareness because this is important.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: This is important to it because to ignore this, then we have nothing more than, like you said, those tick off the boxes, little things like, oh, look at us, we did all the shades, aren't we fabulous?
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we we don't move beyond that if we don't stop for a moment and listen to people's actual experiences and take off the hat of arrogance, you know, and just open your ears and say, Oh my goodness, I didn't know.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, 100%, 100%.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what?
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: I want to actually take a second to quote you because I know that um Women's Rare Daily did a wonderful feature on the event that uh CEW um hosted on the 30th, and that you were quoted as saying that you really um you wanted the focal point to be that you wanted to create an even playing field for everyone in this industry.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that the wording that you used, I love that you said that, and I really want you to take a second and elaborate on that quote and tell us what in your mind, what you see as an even playing field.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like what does that really mean?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I think there's a difference between um equality and equity.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, we we can kind of our our society can oftentimes look at uh certain persons or experiences and go, oh, well, look, now everything's okay now.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: Look, we've had a black president in America, or look, look, we we've got VPs and we've got CEOs and we've got doctors like yourself, we've got these shining examples of uh success of people of color.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we're good, you know, the society's changed, we've moved on.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: That is not truthful because underneath uh all of those experiences, when you talk to people and see what they've had to go through to get there, to see, you know, and I don't and I don't know if this was something that was stated in your household, but most black people I know have heard that you've got to be twice as good.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes half as far.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: And like, like don't don't don't have a uh a typo on anything you you know, don't make sure you don't, you know, slip and and and and keep your um your your code switching correct so that every your diction is perfect at every given moment and all that stuff, yeah, because there's a microscope that many of us are under in this industry that really isn't fair.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've looked at people, you know, even and we won't get into politics, but you you know, you even look at certain situations and go, well, that person really operates like very much a C student, who really didn't have like a whole lot going on for them as far as insight, intellect, etc.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: But look how did they get in that role?
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you look at the expectations of folk of color, it's like the bar set's so high.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then oftentimes you've also got to carry the weight of your whole race or ethnicity with you because you might be the only one in that space, and now you've got to carry that around and everyone's looking at you, or even after you know, all of the racial uprisings that took place, like a lot of times the particularly black people were like, Oh, well, Lisa, tell us about it.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: How do you feel?
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: How's everybody feeling?
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: How are black people doing it?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like that there's a lot of weight attached to being either the only or one of the few.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, when I made that statement, what I really meant is that it's, you know, I want, you know, that young black woman, that young version of Karen to be able to come into this industry or any industry and not have the heavy coat of armor that I might have had to have, or or or some of my colleagues have had, um, of of of all of the expectations and the microaggressions and all of that, and just be able to come in and be great.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: Just be able to come in and do her job and be wonderful at what she does without the extra added pressure of are they gonna think I'm stupid?
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or because that one likes kale and I like collard greens, are they judging me?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, whatever the case may be, because we know that that that organizations and workplaces, et cetera, um, they have a culture attached to them.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: And there's the there's there's there's a difficulty sometimes, like you and I talked about just a moment ago, like having to get used to that culture and go, okay, how do I fit in?
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and the constant thought process that that sometimes we have to go through to make sure we fit in, and how are we wording things and how are we doing, you know, and that's a lot.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you even have the capacity and the mental energy to just be great at what you do?
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a great chemist, I remember uh, you know, somebody know I know in the industry where when I was uh working on writing a piece for the makeup museum, they wrote a beautiful book and I wrote a chapter for them, and I interviewed um someone I knew in the industry who's an amazing, amazingly innovative uh uh chemist who happens to be black.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Karen, you know, one of my first jobs, I went into one of these big cosmetic firms and I interviewed for the job, and I had a master's degree in chemistry.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to, you know, I'm passionate about this, eager to try to get in there and interview for the job.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the HR person or whomever was like, oh, well, you know, we actually we have a front desk position in administration as an administrative assistant.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: And she knew that there was a job with her name on it, and that's what she had come to interview for.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the direction they pushed her in because in their that person's mind, that's what they saw her as capable of.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I talk about a level playing field, it's that folk need to do the work.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: So if they're walking around with unconscious biases around who they think can be great and who they think maybe can just be exceptional within their race, then that needs to all be obliterated.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to start looking at each other's people, trusting each other's talents, looking at each other's cultures as being all beautiful things to be celebrated.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and and and let's make sure that that that what the next generation um encounters isn't with those of us who have had to come up the rough side of the mountain, what we had to deal with.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's that's why I made that statement.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: I really love that.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: And there are so many points in your explanation where I was just like literally like waving my hands around if you could see me, because I was like, oh my God, this is the one person on the planet that understands.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like I really genuinely I resonate and I 100% agree with everything that you've said.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, I I want to just say this because, well, why not?
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I have a story to tell you and it's quick, but like one day I remember, and I remember this very clearly, even though I was pretty uh inebriated, but um uh I was at a bar in Florida, and um, you know, Florida is very it's very split.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's a lot of racism down there, and and you know, there's a lot of really great people, but there's a lot of ignorant people as well.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so we had gone to a bar, um, you know, my fiance and I, and um, he is of color as well.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then um, and I had seen this one waitress.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: She was a blonde young lady who was um, you know, she was just like, there were a lot of them there, but she was in charge of maybe three tables, I think, not even.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: And there was one, there were two of us, the two of the tables were um, they had people of color sitting at them.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me why this girl spent 98% of her time at the white people's table.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: So when she came over to our table finally, after like 30 minutes of waiting for just a glass of water, I looked at her and I remember like my fiance was just like, like, oh my God, I can't believe you're doing this.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I looked at her and I was like, let me ask you something.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what is your life goal?
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_02: And she was like, I I don't know what you mean.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I was like, look in the mirror.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: You are a white, blonde, blue-eyed young woman in America, in the South.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I want you to tell me what's your life goal?
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_02: Is being a waitress what you can do for the rest of your life?
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I made her feel for a second what all of us feel like.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: And and I and I'm not saying go do this, okay?
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying that.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying that I'm a very, I'm very uh, you know, into like just one of those people that just speaks my mind.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I did it, you know.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_02: But what I'm trying to, the point I'm trying to make is this label of or this uh predisposed, you know, thought process that we tend to have about what people are and where they belong and where they should fit in, it's gotta go.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's gotta go.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this is this is done.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: It it's it's too, we are too far along in human evolution to be dealing with this at this point, you know, and I really think, and I'm honestly gonna say this on air.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I hope all psychiatrists, if anyone's listening, the DSM five, it needs to be altered because racism needs to be put in there as a mental condition at this point.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's something really wrong with people who are truly racist.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: They're genuinely mentally, it's a it's a disorder, and we have to treat it as such.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it it just it needs to end.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I just wanted to say that because I, like I said, I speak my mind, and I and I I just think that, you know, people need to have these conversations.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the conversation you and I have had today is probably the most honest, transparent, and real, and you know, just constructive conversation I've had like on this podcast.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: I genuinely mean that.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like this has been so lovely hosting you.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, it it is has absolutely been my pleasure.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the last statement that you made about classifying racism as mental illness, I think is absolutely brilliant because there's one thing to just be ignorant and not know.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's another thing to really be immersed in a lifestyle and a mindset of I want to discriminate against other people willfully, and I want to create a hierarchy in my life where I see myself as above other people and to and to do that with conscious intent.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's just that's a soul-level sickness from from from my perspective.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the the good thing, the thing that keeps me going and keeps me passionate about the work that I'm doing is that thank goodness I don't believe most people fall into that category.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are a lot of people who don't know.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like this it's like a fish that lives in water doesn't know that it's wet, right?
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's that's what I that's that's kind of the analogy that I keep around people who really have no clue because they've just been swimming along and have no idea that they are wet.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so I look at my personal job is to, I'm here to educate, I'm here to inform, I'm here to inspire, I'm here to be honest.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if people want to engage with that and want to learn, I'm here for it.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: If they have a willful are making willful decisions to just stay where they are and discriminate against others, then I don't know what to say because I'm not a mental health professional and I don't know how to get you unstuck from that.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I so appreciate that you framed it in that way because I think it's really important to look at it as that serious, because it is.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it is.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, it is that serious, it is that serious.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_02: You have you have literally people young, you are literally um and I'm gonna be very, very, very transparent here and say this to the audience.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: We have a situation on our hands at this point where a specific race of men is literally undergoing genocide, if you really think about it, okay?
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_02: Black males are being killed disproportionately compared to any other race or gender anywhere in this country.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: That is a serious problem, okay?
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_02: That there are so many real things going on in this world.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're choosing to just turn a blind eye or just check off some boxes, or just pretend like you've got that token, you know, uh per you know, girl of color on your team, and that makes you inclusive, well then you can you really need to re-evaluate because this is this is a problem.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day, you know, Karen, I personally, this is my personal viewpoint.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I think that because there has been this the aggression that we've seen towards our, you know, our population and our our community of colored, you know, individuals has been this almost like, you know, uh just aggressive and just you know, no buts, ands, ifs, nothing.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we need to take the same approach with trying to.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: eradicate this racist um mentality in our work and say say no i'm not taking your pseudo answer as an you know exception accepted answer you either get it or you don't and if you don't get it there's a door walk out because i can replace you with somebody who's gonna get it and i think if we have that firmness more so when we're hiring people and when we're putting people in positions of power that firmness is really what's gonna make the point and i and i really urge the brands listening if there's any executives like do be firm you know what i mean stand your ground don't hire the person that's just checking off boxes hire the person who really gets it because that's how change happens so yeah I mean I I don't want to keep ranting but Karen you're phenomenal and I really wish I could clone you and put you in a corner everywhere seriously because we need more people like you really well thank you and I'm not going anywhere um this is this is you know uh sometimes uh uh life calls us to do certain things um and I didn't know as a 14 15 year old kid how my own uh my own personal insights about beauty and how I felt about myself would eventually become something that uh that that catapulted me into being in a position to uh bring awareness uh and and and and bring this kind of conversation out into the open so that we can have some healing and have some growth but it is it is absolutely my pleasure and I am here for continuing the the conversation in in any ways that I'm invited to do so so I just appreciate you you are always energy consider it your home this is your podcast you come whenever you have time I'm telling you I'm I'm I'm not telling everybody out there if she's got time I'm scheduling time on her calendar because honestly I could talk to you for years and I would love for you to also come on to the other podcast that I mentioned and and I I think this conversation it needs to be had every day somebody somewhere needs to have this conversation we got to talk you guys you know keep this conversation going make some uh leave some comments some feedback if you don't want to do that hey just you know personal message me or Karen or whoever you can get in touch with that gets it you know what I mean just like keep it going like we gotta this that's the biggest problem with these conversations is people have them and then no one continues it so please I urge all of you really take heed to everything Karen has said and really give an insight into and just think on it and and you know have some actions to back up those thoughts.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you Karen this has been so so wonderful.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_02: You are very welcome it's been my pleasure thank you.
• 1:08:33
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• 1:09:05
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• 1:09:29
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• 1:09:35
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• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you