Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Kamron Coleman - From Leaving the LDS Church for 20 Years to Going Back: Mysticism, Suffering, and Finding God Again Through Divine Revelation

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Kamron Coleman - From Leaving the LDS Church for 20 Years to Going Back: Mysticism, Suffering, and Finding God Again Through Divine Revelation · MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt

• Brynne Erickson (00:29) All right, everybody. I am super excited for this episode today. I am here with my uncle, Cameron Coleman, and we have never hung out before. We haven't ever. I'm 37 years old and I was thinking about this episode. I invited Cameron on first of all, because of his story of becoming and also his artwork that is becoming a big deal. and really impacting people in the world. And I wanted him to share that with us, but a part of his story and why we have not hung out for 37 years is I was, we were actually going to have this conversation off the mic, but then he said we should turn this on and tell everybody. So my perspective growing up, well, first of all, Cameron was in Washington most of my life and I was in Utah and Just as a kid, I internalized that Uncle Cameron didn't like us. And for some reason, we didn't get along. And I didn't know why, and I didn't understand. And we just had an amazing conversation with my mom and aunt, which are Cameron's sisters, about ⁓ some pivotal moments that kind of created that distance between. ⁓ his family and the rest of us in Utah, essentially. Yeah. It's super heartbreaking when, when you said, I thought you didn't like us. My heart broke completely, you know, of course that was never the case. Yeah. But we don't, you know, I, in a very real sense, I felt the same way. Right. Yeah. But there's a story that I was about to answer to you that. that I thought we really have to open with that. All right, let's do it. And some years ago, um, this has been a hard day. As you said, we just had a conversation with my sisters about that, that moment that my family shattered for me, you know, but, and so it's been a hard day. Uh, it's been a very heavy couple of hours recently and, but beautiful. I don't mind heavy. Like I don't, I don't, I don't try to avoid heavy. I, I, I cherish it. It's a blessing to have a deep and profound moving, real conversation, even if it's uncomfortable. It was not uncomfortable because I love my sisters. It was, it was about extremely hard and painful. It's like talking about the, the wound you got and how you felt the wound. happen. You know that it's traumatic. Yes. To remember your wounding. But ⁓ so I was out of the church for 20 years and also distance myself culturally from it. Yeah. And family from it. I'd like to talk in a minute about that why I think that happens. Okay. Why why the I think that dynamic happens in the church. Super important. Very important. we can circle back to that in just a minute. a few years ago, I can't remember at the moment what the occasion was, but all the family was going to get together. And I don't think it was that crazy giant family picture that grandma just did. Okay. With everyone. Yeah. I don't think that was the collage where each individual family took a picture and then they put it together. ⁓ great. So grandma, grandma engineered. Project managed this for a year. Yes And and we got that giant composite family picture three years ago, which I think is a tremendous treasure but something happened a few years before that and My brother Kent your uncle Kent told his family that that Cameron was coming down and Carson who I think was in his mid teens at that point said Uncle Cameron and can say, yeah, Uncle Cameron. There is no Uncle Cameron. Really? Can you imagine? Wow. Can you imagine? He's 15 years younger than me. Is he? Yeah. So I'm so glad that Kent, my brother, can't told me that story. And that's a heart shattering story. There is no Uncle Cameron. Can you imagine hearing that? That's bizarre. And and. It's heart shattering and it's true and it's my fault and it's complicated. Yeah. You know. Yes. And so. ⁓ And so I wanted I wanted. Your audience to understand that that something like that could have been said, that that's the depth and profundity of the separation, the emotional separation that we all had. There's no doubt in my mind or anybody's mind that we always loved each other. But there was a definite cultural separation at every level. In. Jumping to the lesson, because we have a lot to talk about. We do. What I've learned about the religion that we are all brought up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is there's a there's a kind of left brain way of thinking about what the church is. The church is this organization of these people into wards and stakes and. And it has a leadership. has a hierarchical structural leadership. has doctrines. Right. It has. So it's a thing and a church has to set stakes saying this is what the church is. And outside of these stakes, the church isn't. Okay. It has to do that. Brynne Erickson (07:03) Any anything has to do that. Anything has to have boundaries. Right. It says this is what's inside the boundary and this is what's outside the boundary. And so we have this idea that the church is made of these concrete things. I before I left the church in my early 20s. I had already invested 20 years in the church by that point. I had paid tithing for my whole life. I read the Book of Mormon for the first time, not a kid version, but the real Book of Mormon at eight years old. I had a goal to finish it in my eighth year and I read it and I read the scriptures every day. And I had loved ones. had advisors and friends and that that that generously gave me. We had scouts, we did camping trips, we had prayers, family prayers, all kinds of prayers. And so by the time you've been in a church for 20 years, you have skin in the game. Okay. And if the doctrines are irreconcilable in your mind, or if some elemental important part of the church of that concrete church becomes untenable to you. I've heard so many times in my life, why don't you just leave? Right. Right? Yes. Well, why don't you just leave? Because if you leave. Where does all of that shared communal spirit go? Who retains that? Who retains that part of you that was part of something that was a group? If you just leave, do you get to take that part of the group with you? You don't. You don't get to take your cutoff. Does that group get to keep? that essence of you that they loved for the last 20 years. No, they don't. They don't get to keep it. so there's so much more to a religion than that left brain concrete stuff. And when somebody says, why don't you just leave? It's because it is, it cannot be disentangled from all of you. Well, and that's why a big part of this podcast for me was like advocating for people who have gone through that process because it's like my, one of my friends said, I really wanted it to be true. And it is so emotionally and spiritually hard to come to that conclusion. Whatever it is that you decide stepping away is the best idea. But I think we, lot of time, those who. are in the church and have never questioned, think that it was such an easy process. Like it was just, I don't like doing this anymore. So I'm out. When in reality, for a lot of people, it's like a heartbreaking, super hard process because you know what you're leading. You know what you're going to be disconnected from. And I just feel like we don't give enough credit to those people and hold space for them because it really typically is a very hard and heartbreaking. process for a lot of people because of I love how you kind of separated the two the concrete and then the Heart, yeah part of it. Well, I left I left the church to learn more about Sufi Islam and I'll tell you what that was an insight as an early 20 year old because Sufi Islam is extraordinarily profound it's still Incredibly moving to me and very deep. I have a very deep understanding of what it's trying to say. As far as I know. about it. What's one thing that you love about Have you ever seen the whirling dervishes? I have not. what a whirling dervish is? don't. don't even. It's Sufism is performed, so to speak, by men in white or red, ⁓ beautifully draped ⁓ It's a it's a it's a like a bodysuit with a great flaring that flares out. OK. And they wear a big hat. And they dance in circles. They've been doing this for a very long time. They dance in circles and their their their their skirt billows out like a flower, like a big open flower. Or what can we compare it to wings? OK. And and they just become this organic. thing that's moving. It's very visual then. Yes. Okay. Moving with the spirit. So Sufism is the mystical side of Islam. So my, my religion has more in common with the mystical side of any of the world's religion than it does the, the doctrines and practices of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. someone who's a mystic in their religion, has more in common with the mystics of all of their religions than their own. Religion their own church. What makes someone a mystic? That that their religion is informed inwardly Rather than just distributed to them or given them from the outside Interesting. So what's difference? Is there a difference between being spiritual and being mystic? Would you say I I don't know what that word spiritual means anymore. I don't I don't think it has I don't think it has a very good I don't know what it is. I think that the word spiritual is intended to differentiate from someone who's religious. I'm religious. Okay. I'm, religious. Like I love religion. Okay. I practicing religion. I love spirituality. I someone who's spiritual says I'm not doing any of the organized religion stuff. And I, because I have an inward spirituality that informs me. So it's something like that. Okay. Um, but, um, But there's a, I think we can go back to the left brain, right brain thing. I think you could fairly say, I don't, I don't think anyone would need to argue about whether religion can be considered left brain and spirituality can be considered right brain. Mysticism is definitely right brain. So, so we're shoving things over to the less concrete, more subjective side of being. And so, ⁓ Yeah, Sufism meant a lot to me, still does. There is a Islamic... Christ. I don't I'm not I'm not a Muslim. I'm not I don't associate with them. I don't worship with them. So I don't want to oversimplify or mischaracterize them. So please forgive me if you know more than me and I'm and I'm not doing a very good job doing the best you can. I'm sincerely moved and touched by Sufi Islam. That's what I'm trying to represent. They ⁓ there's a Sufi mystic. named Mansour al-Halaj and he was a cotton carver from Persia. That means he ⁓ strained cotton to get the seeds out. That was his job. And he said that he's God because he knew that God was in him and that he was enlivened by God and that everything in his imagination, everything in his body was a manifestation of God. That was absolutely blasphemous to say. And he insisted on it until he was executed. the way that they executed him, according to what I read many years ago in my early twenties, is they cut off his hands and they cut off his feet. And he never ceased to proclaim that he is God. And he said, thank you, God, for letting me manifest the divine this way. so he's the they they they did even more brutal things until he finally died. They absolutely dismembered his body. OK, while he never stopped singing praises and gratitude that God would. dwell in him. Okay. And that his execution was the ultimate proof of God's indwelling in him. So it's a very Christian, very Christian sort of. So it's like a Christ like. Christ like way of ⁓ of expressing. So Rumi is a Sufi who said the wound is where the light gets in. So there's a very important. Very important to me. Fundamental to my Christianity is is my belief and sense and experience that suffering is. ⁓ How the divine is made manifest. Grace in suffering, right? Forgiveness and suffering like it's easy to forgive. It's easy to, if you're not suffering, if no one's hurting you, right? Super easy to forgive. And, but if someone's hurting you right now and killing you right now to forgive them and to love them and to recognize that the suffering is divine, that's Christianity. That's also Sufism. That's a common thread through the religious experience. And so I understood that when I left the church, because I go into a ⁓ sacrament meeting and I feel like a fish out of water. It has nothing to do with my understanding of religion. To go into this room with all these pews facing forward and have somebody at the front speaking. I love it now. I love going to church. I love listening to talks, but it is not my religion. My, my religion is, is informed inwardly, but I cherish that community and that's how my community gathers. And so that's what I do. I wish we gathered in a dark room with filled with art and candles. Yeah. You know, yeah. With people dancing in beautiful robes. Why don't you start something like that? because, because... I ⁓ I am so indoctrinated that to start something is apostate. To start something competitive is apostate. Right? So as an artist... I have started something, but as a Latter Day Saint, it's anathema to start a religion. Right. That's, that's apostasy. And I love my community. Okay. And I wanted, I don't want to hurt my community in any way. I don't want to compete with my community. And so, ⁓ I'm an artist and so artists can get away with all kinds of stuff. And so, know, So, so I, I express what I can through art. Yeah. And, I have gratitude to gather with my people, how we gather. I wish we gathered another way, but we don't. This is how my people gather. And so I feel privileged and blessed to do it. Well, and I think it's interesting that you you're like, what can I do here with what I have? Rather than screw it. I'm just going to go do my own thing. That's kind of, did that. Yeah. You know, that's what I did for 20 years. I couldn't, I couldn't do the being in the church split my brain in half. Okay. It severed my brain right down the line into two hemispheres. My, my brain cannot make these things reconcile each other. And so I've had to suffer my way through that and find a way to have family and community. and it is only by the grace of Christ that I was able to do that. I was commanded back to the church by the voice of the Lord. After about a six week period of having his presence in a very difficult time and and. I heard the voice of Lord on three different occasions during that time period. And it was recently very right while I was being divorced by surprise. And ⁓ my ex-wife was conducting affairs in the house I was in. And I didn't have enough money to live somewhere else. And she was blatantly cheating on me. And it was extraordinarily painful. My wife of 19 years and, um, I had no other choice. And the Lord came to me and abided with me through that time and gave me a love for her that I hadn't had. Were you seeking that? how did. No, he just came to me. He just, he just came and abided with me in a very, very literal way. So I had been married for 19 years and and I was stepping off the curb at work. I was a foundryman. I worked at a giant compound where we made giant sculptures. It was this out of it was a completely crazy place to work. And and there's no place like it. Walla Walla Foundry. And I stepped off the curb. And the voice of the Lord came to me and had come to me when I was younger. And when I was not in the church, the voice of the Lord had come to me. So I'm a visionary person. I've had, I've had experiences with the voice of the Lord and I was stepping off the curb and I thought in my mind, where am I going to get sex? Right. Cause sex was going on all around. And I was, I'm a monogamous person. If it were up to me, I would only ever have one sexual partner in my whole life. I've always been that way. I've always only one. And my first wife was that until my second wife became that. I'm a monogamous being. Interesting. And, and so it occurred to my mind, where am I going to get sex? And that thought, I don't know if I ever had that in, my life. And immediately the voice of the Lord said, be still. A rebuke, ⁓ a comfort and a rebuke at the same time. And I said, be still. And that was the moment that Jesus. started talking to me again and I was reproved on the spot and never thought that again. I didn't even have a thought. Interesting. that, that rebuke from the Lord was completely sufficient to set me straight. Interesting. And then And I had been drinking a lot of beer in my life by then. A lot of beer. I love beer. Yeah. With all my heart. I loved my beer more than I loved time with my family more than I loved it. Just loved it. I loved being ⁓ half drunk. I loved, I loved being just under the influence. Just enough to function and feel. Because because I love the I loved everything about it. I loved I drank only good beer. High quality, high quality, good beers. I loved. The craft of the beer and people do so, like from a culinary perspective, appreciate it. People I was a beer lover and and I. loved the activity of drinking it. And I loved peeing, urinating. You have to urinate a lot. Okay. And it's different when you're drunk. As a man, it's interesting. It's a cool feeling. It's part of alcohol still up to this point in my life. for you. It was a good experience. I loved it. I loved how it, how it slowed my mind down and made my thoughts more manageable. Okay. and loved for it to be paired with smoking cigarettes, high quality cigarettes again. It was all high quality. OK. And in my culture, I'm a blue collar. I've always been blue collar and an artist. And in my culture, I was not a heavy drinker at all. OK. So pretty norm as well. Totally normal. I was not a binger. I was just a little constant every day in the evening. I love routine. I guess not constant, but routine. And sometimes three beers, sometimes 12 beers. Okay. If I drank a lot, had 14 or 15 beers over a six hour period. Would your day depend, determine how much you drink? Or is it just pleasure? Just pleasure. If I was done, if I was done with what I was doing, you know, yeah. And I loved it. Okay. And I cooked a lot. And so I would, I would drink while I cooked. And so I cook something that took a while to cook and you know, you have time to have three or four beers by the time. And so I love that more than more than I gave attention to my loved ones. Okay. Because I loved my loved ones with all my heart, but my alcoholism got my attention. Gotcha. Because you don't have attention anymore to give. Right. So, so you're, what you're surrendering is your attention that you have to give to people. Okay. And my ex-wife's Sicily, who I love, who I think is a very beautiful person. She was, she, her car broke down 45 miles away and I couldn't go help her. uncle Kyle went and helped her if I remember it. And I was like, that's a problem because my wife was in trouble. She was in need. And I said, I can't come help you because I've had three beers. That's honestly, especially since stepping into motherhood. And I ever since I've given myself permission, I really can do whatever I want to do. And I believe God will love me no matter what. When I thought about drugs and alcohol, I've honestly thought of my children and I never want to find myself in a situation that I put myself in a position that I couldn't be available to help. Yeah, that was me. OK, so so you say, OK, kids are on autopilot. Everybody's fine. And as long as nothing goes wrong. Then you can. Check out, get stoned. Gotcha. And so, I compared it to, I drank less than my doctor. All right. Found that out. Okay. So I'm like, okay, that's not too bad. I drink less than a lot of my coworkers. All most of them. So reinforcement. like, so I'm good. Yeah. And, on the waterville plateau where I live amongst these farmers that I was friends with, ⁓ they were drinking 30 beers a day. And then they drink a fifth of whiskey at night. And I thought, you know, I'm, I'm drinking a fifth of what they drink or, you know, so. So my poor family, you know, so, ⁓ to get back to the second time I heard the voice of Lord, I was standing in the kitchen very soon after that experience at the curb. And the voice of the Lord came to me and said, don't ever drink in her presence again. And it was referring to my ex-wife. And when I followed that, my whole perspective on my wife changed. I hadn't seen her without alcohol in my system. man. Ever. Possibly ever. Wow. And that might be an exaggeration, but that's close enough to the truth. That that's closer than any other way I could say it. I never drank in her presence. didn't stop drinking. It was funny. The voice of the Lord didn't say, don't ever drink again. It said, don't drink in her presence. And so I stopped and I saw her from that point on in a way I had never seen her and I was filled with love for her. And. compassion for her and, though what she was doing was extremely painful. Yeah. I loved her and, and she would say, I think that I was very kind to her during that, during the divorce. And I believe Children. will never forgive their dad if he is not good to their mom. It doesn't matter how, what the mom is doing. A child I don't think can forgive their dad if he's ever, if he's ever bad to her. And I knew that deep within me and I treated her as sweetly and kindly as I could. And it was the presence of Christ that, that grace that, that made me able to do that. And the presence of the Lord stayed with me for about four more weeks. I had moved out by now. I was in an extraordinarily profound religious experience that was prolonged. And all of sudden, I was walking across the street at a house where I was renting a room across from the YMCA. And the voice of the Lord came to me for the third time and it said, I'm turning you over to the church. And it had never occurred to me that anything like that was ever going to happen. Ever. was the farthest thing from my imagination. And I called the stake, looked up the stake president, called him and said, my name is Cameron Coleman. I want to return to the church in full fellowship. I want to do whatever I have to do to to do that. I hadn't committed any egregious sins. hadn't. ⁓ Except for that lack of attention that I gave to the people that I love the most. ⁓ I was not guilty of any serious thing. the stake president said, hey, that's great. You need to call your bishop. It goes through your bishop first. I looked up the bishop, called the bishop, told him the same thing. And if I remember right, I don't remember if this took a little bit of time or if it was immediate or whatever. said, yeah, we know who you are. Just come back. We just want you as you are. Just come on back. Had you been on the records this whole time? Yeah. Yeah. A long time, probably the whole 20 years. We didn't want contact from them, but we had a what was called home teacher at the time. Now ministering brother in Walla Walla who named Keith Crane. And he would just show up once every three months or so. Yeah. Beautiful human being, beautiful man. Blue collar man like me, mechanic, welder. And he would just show up and we'd just stand outside and he'd talk for an hour with us. And he, he just had a genuine friendship and then, and he'd talk and he'd say, is there anything I can do for you guys? No, this was nice to see you. Okay. All right, if there's anything you want, you let me know. Yeah. He was our ministering brother for something like. I don't remember how long we lived there, but from the time we lived there, wow, and he was perfect. Yeah, he's perfect. And so it's very tender in my heart that I mean, who wants to do that? Who wants to be the guy that has to go minister to the people that don't want to the people that don't want you to come around? Yeah, and he did. And he was humble. He was gracious. He was incredibly sweet with us and we loved him. And my wife had a woman who had been writing her letters every month, sending her a card every month for something like 20 or 30 years. ⁓ A visiting sister who was assigned to her from her hometown. Wow. Years and years before, and she never quit. writing her a little card every month. And my wife loved those cards. So that's, I think, a very cool story for ministering. It is. Yeah, it's special. So, yeah, so that's why I came back to the church. I didn't come back to the church because I believed in it. I didn't become back because I believed in the Book of Mormon or you're like a new convert. Yeah, like you were just. I was figuring this out again, just obedient. Okay. And when I, when I got back in the church, what struck me the most and, practically killed me with mercy and love was people were calling me brother camera. For some reason in that ward, when I got there, everyone was calling me brother. Cameron. Interesting. I that was amazing. You mean versus brother Coleman? Or, yeah. Or Cameron or anything. Anybody else had been calling me for the last 20 years. I didn't remember that people called people brother or whatever. Yeah. Brother and sister. I'd forgotten that I'd completely forgotten that. And it really struck me as extremely lovely. And I felt that from them. felt like I was in the embrace of a family. Interesting. And in my first gospel doctrine class was Sister Trescot, and it was a dynamite gospel doctrine class. was extremely well-researched and prepared. And it was great discussion. I'm like, this is great. I didn't remember it like this. The church had been in my periphery for the whole time. But in my imagination the church was something else and it was something else the church I left was something else than that and you were a different person and I was a different person And so these things these things aren't static things that just stay. Yeah, these things are living organisms that are continually changing Yeah, and I didn't when I was out of the church. I oversimplified the church into an inanimate object That had stopped moving Right? Yeah. And so I've learned that in my life. I learned that. So you say something like it's a living, changing organism. And you know, a lot of people have a hard time with change within the church. But I mean, it makes complete sense that as we are changing, what would be the natural side effect? Well, the church is two different things. The church is us. Right. And the church is is this concrete thing. Yeah, that concrete thing is brittle. OK. Concrete is brittle as it ages. True. The the the living organism that is the church isn't brittle. Which is us, which is us. And so that's how I understand it. I I am I don't care all that too much about that brittle. concrete thing. It doesn't take much of my thought. I think about religion all day, every day. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. Poor thing. It's exhausting. No, wait, I don't. I think about my wife almost all the time and then all of the other good job minutes of the day. My sweet Bethany. Yeah. She's my she's my mate. I think about her. And then when I'm not thinking about her, I think about really. Yeah, I think about religion and people like how does this make sense? Yeah, all day long. All day long. I love it. It's the only thing I've ever thought about. And and so. And when I talk about the church, as we just described as being us, yeah, I also don't limit to that, to having anything to do with people that are inside or outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints per se. Yeah. I don't have a deep psychological connection. to any evangelicals in their Christianity. Right. My people that have informed my being. Mm Our Latter Day Saints, for the most part. Yeah. And that's the flavor of that community spirit that that is a big part of me. it isn't by any stretch of the imagination limited to any religion in my imagination. It includes Sufism. It includes. Buddhism, Buddhism, Hinduism. I love Hinduism. I love Hinduism. And I think Joseph was restoring Hinduism. interesting. But he was had to do it in America so it looked like Christianity. I think Hinduism is dynamite, just pure dynamite. So cool. But Hinduism isn't one thing. Hinduism is is incomprehensibly diverse. Mm hmm. I learned that. Yeah. David Butler of your David. My David. So Cameron is doing we'll do a plug for this. There's a podcast called The Stick of Joseph with David Butler, a different David Butler than the Come Follow Me and the the World Religions Course. What's it called? The Don't Miss This Dave Butler. It's not him. I don't know who that is. Right. So there's Don't Miss This Podcast, which is like a Come Follow Me. And then your David Butler, which is the Stick of Joseph podcast. he's long haired, mustachioed giant. Yes. Who's the best, the best well read person I have ever known besides my Bethany. Cool. Bethany is brilliant and a prolific reader. She reads all day long. We're going to have her on this podcast. And my Dave Butler reads like she does. And it's cool. Brilliant. And you have some episodes coming up in the future. That's why I'm here this weekend is recording for that podcast. And then I got lucky and got an evening with I got lucky on the middle ground podcast. I got lucky. You're so sweet. But David Butler with Don't Miss This, he started a world religions course, which just kind of gives you a little like taste of what each of like the biggies are. And it has been so awesome. And I just am concluding that God loves all of us and just will speak to us in whatever way we'll take him. And he loves us so much that he just wants us however we'll receive him. Can I jump off on that? Sure. To, know we want to talk about my art, apotheosis scroll. apotheosis scroll is not, it's 300 feet right now, 300 feet long. It's half finished. Half finished and I'm eight thousand hours into it. OK. It features all of these religions that you're talking about. OK. I believe the restoration of Joseph Smith is a restoration of a universal religion. It's not it's not a restoration of of of evangelical or Protestant Christianity of some one sect. Yeah, I believe that Christianity was established as a team of rivals that and one of these team of rivals was Judaism. One of them was Indo Persian Hinduism. There you go. Basically. And and one of them was ⁓ Platonistic ⁓ Greek philosophy. OK. And just to name a few. Those are the main out of. And if you look into the New Testament with. With knowledge of various things, you're like, Hey, there are some of this in there. There's some of this in there. There's some of this in there because it was not presented as a, as a coherent ideology. was presented as a universal worldwide religion and how these various perspectives interpreted Jesus of Nazareth. who did something world changing. The world was anticipating a savior because of the astronomy that was happening at the moment. They're like, the son of God is here. Who is he? And it was the astronomy that said the son of God is here to everyone. And then everyone's like, who is he? And we think he's going to come out of Israel. And here's the reasons why. And so the, the, prophets of astronomy from all these different religions were looking in Israel for the fulfillment of the star prophecy. And they're like, it's gotta be, it's gotta be Jesus of Nazareth. And this group says, and here's why. And this group says, and here's why. And this group says, I don't think that's the reason why. think this is the reason why. We're explaining. This is the reason why. And the New Testament says, yep, he is. And here's the collection of the reasons why that people offered. So it's not a coherent ideology. It's a amalgamation of Christian testimonies that ran the gamut. How he was resurrected, what the resurrection means. What does it mean to be resurrected? What means that ⁓ a corpse emerges from a tomb said some, and some said, no, that's not what resurrection means. Resurrection means this resurrection means this. And the New Testament says, here's all the people that here's some of the people just a just a small representation by the time it's gathered. Because there were thousands of more people saying, I have a testimony of Christ. have a story. here's my testimony of Christ. Right. Yeah. And it's not the same testimony as anybody else's testimony. Yeah. That was all legit at the time. And so my artwork is that, is saying here are the testimonies of Christ and why did they feel this way? Because of what was happening in the sky. The ordinances, so the word for ordinances in Hebrew is mazarot and that means constellations. So when you say the ordinances of the gospel, You're saying the constellations of the gospel in relation to the stars. Yep, the stars and so the stars were such that the Messiah had come and It was a universal language that everybody understood and everybody understood that language so well That no one ever thought it would need to be explained to anybody on the planet And so they didn't they just took for granted that we all Know the language and always would because it's always dark at night And the stars are there and the stars will always be there. And so it was just completely taken for granted. And that language, that star language is completely lost. yeah. I have no idea what the world is. Absolutely illiterate in the one language that everyone in the world spoke. ⁓ that is so pretty. I wish that that was still the way we lived. Like I can barely see the stars. I can't see now because of light pollution. can hardly see them myself. And so I've had to. do this exploration without in Samoa, I could see the stars, but it was the Southern Hemisphere, which is where served your mission. Yeah. Which is a different set of stars. yeah. Well, even if you go up just to the mountains, right. And you get away from the city, you can see the stars. But the, the, gospel is restored by Joseph Smith is all recorded in the stars. Joseph Smith's talking star stories the whole time. And this is just mind blowing to me. And the, you could the gospel of john you can lay on your back and see the whole gospel of john and the stars it's a star story so nobody understood nobody read greek the the amount of people that read greek is statistically zero compared to the general population being literate like even being able to read period hebrew wasn't a thing aramaic all of them yeah no no one could read your scholars almost nobody could read scholars yeah apprentices so no one's reading no one's reading No gospel of Matthew. No in the in the century. Yep. After Jesus. one is reading the gospel of Matthew. I've never thought of that before, but yeah, that makes complete sense. Christianity spread instantaneously worldwide in the whole Roman world, almost instantaneously. How? Because it was a star story that took the stars that everybody already knew and said, The son of God, S-U-S, the sun. Okay. Okay. It's this Jesus of Nazareth fellow. And here's the story of how it did, how it went. And that star story transmitted like wildfire. And everyone's like, that's right. That's perfect. That makes sense. Universal. In a universal language and it filled the world. And the problem was, Brian, four centuries later. By the time the, the Neo Platonist civic administration of the Roman government takes this over, they're like, the next sign is only 100 years out, which is the Polaris becomes the pole star. Okay. Okay. I know that doesn't mean anything right now, and we're not going to go much into that, but in 100 more years, This sign of the second coming was coming. OK. What second coming of Christ, the second coming of Christ after he'd already. So the second coming that everybody's anticipating. Jesus is talking about a second coming. Everybody's waiting for the second coming like the same one we're waiting for. Yeah. Yeah. But they started waiting for that immediately because it was a start, a specific star sign. And that's when the star Polaris. moves into pole position becomes the North pole. It wasn't always so our North pole hasn't always been the North pole at all. And when that star moves into pole position, that signaled the second coming and it's still in pole position and it reached reaches its ultimate maximum precision point in 2100. Okay. So we in, in 37, five more years. 85 more years, however many more that is. Well, as soon as that starts to move into position, the Roman government was getting really nervous ⁓ because they're like, if this sign happens again, he's coming again. He's going to show up who knows where and do what to us. We that to him. Right. And, and so they say no more stars, no more star stories. Anybody found. looking at the stars is dead. We're going to kill you. So where'd you find all this? Well, this has been the the subject of my research for my whole life. But upon returning to the church. I had some visionary experiences that jump started this. And then it's been a continual filling of that well as long as I work on the project. And how do the resources come to you? How do you find them? How does one find them? Yeah. The most comprehensive source I know in the world of gospel astronomy and how the scriptures are telling star stories is my apotheosis scroll. I know of no other source. Because you've taken pieces and put them together. I'm putting this, yes. Put it into this. I'm trying to show you how ⁓ the stars taught the gospel to everyone. Not just the Jews, but to the Hindus, to everyone. And I'm assuming you have felt very inspired and guided in this whole process. I know that it is. This has been your calling. Yeah, this is my, this is, this is. my calling. This is why the Lord has me here. As far as my beyond my immediate loved ones, I have no doubt that this is my life's work. And I. We were talking about how I operate the least watched YouTube channel in the whole Internet. Yes. If you if you type in what is the if just ask, I what is the least watched YouTube channel on the whole Internet? than mine will come up. Cameron Coleman's is the least watched. You're so funny. ⁓ But I would rather. 1000 people over the next 1000 years look deeply into my work than to have a hundred thousand shallow followers today. Like I, I, I hope that over time, over centuries, a few people, a century will, that's what I've done. That's how I've gotten my knowledge is because I am looking at something, some monk. sketched out and put in the wall of a church. Yeah. Yeah. And, no one has ever seen or cared about it, but the spirit directed me to it. I found it and I'm putting it in that true story collection of testimonies. Yeah. You know, you know, it's interesting too is where you've been, like your distance between the church. I'm having no doubt was it. Integral part. into where you are today. so I don't recommend it, but yes. But and even we talked to you brought up how sacrifice suffering suffering is divine. And I've never really heard of it that way before. I've always just and I very much believe and I have an episode about this with Robin Whitworth felt like you have to have everything has to have its opposite. Like that's just you can't avoid it. It's just a part of the plan and how we learn and grow. And we call it contrast. That's what she refers to it as. children know what's what's right and wrong by contrast. Yeah. And so as much as we don't want the hard like it is an essential part of helping us progress, it is and becoming who the next version of us is in our next contribution to the world. And at least for me. co-creating with God. Absolutely. Like magnifies and intensifies my ability to do not only what I want to do, but maybe more. Absolutely. Than I could ever do. Without a doubt. And so it's thematically extremely important to the scroll. It's a mystery initiation. takes you through seven seals of initiation. You start at the beginning. OK, like the or like the ordinances of the gospel. Yeah. And the endowment. These are initiatic experiences where you start down here at the bottom and you climb a ladder. physically do something when you say initiation. So not necessarily. OK. But you're being initiated into a mystery school. So in the in antiquity, there was a mystery school of Greece, a mystery school of Egypt, a mystery school of Babylon, of Persia of Rome and it's an official. experience that people would save their whole lives to afford to go to get initiated. And they would go and they would go through this experience that took them through seven levels. The seven ordinances of the gospel that were all corresponding to specific constellations and all the same constellations from mystery school to mystery school. These are the same, the same mystery school that Joseph Smith restored. And but he did it in his own version, just like the Ellyocene, Ellyocene and mysteries of Greece are their own version. Like you get to craft it artistically how you want. But it's the same ordinances. OK, because the ultimate goal, the ultimate ⁓ destination is to become a lion and a lioness in the celestial kingdom. And you have to go, you have to become a lot of different creatures on the way. until you become that creature, the king and queen, the lion king with your crown of glory. so ⁓ the apotheosis scroll takes you through those ordinances and takes you through them by just kind of guiding you so that if you see something in the scroll, I... It will trigger something in you. will trigger a memory or a knowledge deep in you. And it will inspire you to learn more about that. And so that's how I learned. was reading a article by Val Larson about Heavenly Mother. And I'm walking with my tablet down the hallway. And there's this little crude line drawing on the bottom of the page that I didn't understand. And And it was a picture of the heavenly council in ⁓ Sumeria, the Sumerian ⁓ heavenly council, which is our oldest stuff on the planet, which is the the original family of God. And this was shared in Egypt and it was it was all over that hemisphere. OK, they were all doing the same thing. And and it's the father, the mother, the son and the daughter. And then it's this scene. And ⁓ I saw this. So this little line drawing is based on what's called a cylinder seal. So you've heard of the seals, the seven seals or whatever. And so if you were going somewhere on my behalf to buy some grain in a foreign land or to make a trade or to sign a contract to represent you, to represent me, you'd take my seal with you. Yes. So a little stamp and they'd... Proves that I'm here on your behalf. And they'd put some wax there or some clay and they'd keep a record and they'd put your stamp on it. Well, there was a tremendous ⁓ technological innovation, which was to put that stamp on the cylinder. Because if you have a cylinder, you can roll it out and put so much more data there. All right. So roll. Roll. So now there's thousands and thousands of these rolls, these cylinder seals. Okay. And they're only an inch high. They're only an inch tall. And you'd wear them around your neck or on your wrist or. Yep. Okay. And then when you got there, you'd roll that out. Okay. Well, this little drawing was a very crude drawing rendered from a cylinder seal that's one inch tall and rolled out. So it's super crude. Like somebody was carving something. So tiny and it has four people in it, two trees, a mountain, a snake, a dove, an ocean, stars. It's got so much information on this little seal. Okay. So it's a tremendous artwork. Cool. Right. I saw a line drawing of that cylinder seal and a feeling of electricity started at the crown of my head and went to the soles of my feet. just this slow moving electrical current. And I was like, what was that? It had never happened to me before. It happened when I looked at that thing and I said, I don't know what that is, but I have to find out. And for the next six months, I researched that one image and I, and I listened to the Yale courses online, whole course on the old Testament three times in a row. Okay. Talk about a commitment. Yeah. Massive commitment. Yes. Boring. Exhilarating. Boring. So boring. But I listened to it till I understood it. Okay. Until I understood every word that the professor said. And then I made a full-size painting of that scene. 36 inches by 60 inches. Okay. And in the process of doing a full on oil painting, I discovered things about that scroll that I had not seen. So you took the one inch image, one inch image. Well, I found that image in online. Yes. Of what it really looks like, which is only very slightly more detailed than the drawing that I saw. But it was really amazing because as I painted this full size, the spirit supplied details that turned out to be absolutely spot on. And I knew that image now. I knew what it meant. I knew who the figures were. And I'm reading in the book of Revelation and there that seal's being talked to. And it's like, ⁓ he's looking at that seal. He's looking at that image because he is describing that image word for word. Do know what that means? That the heavenly council in John's revelation in the new Testament is describing a familial Godhead. That's what this means. This elusive proof of heavenly mother is sitting here right in the new Testament undiscovered. because we don't know that Revelation 11 and 12 is describing that exact scene. The implications are huge because it's a not... the word for one God. Monotheistic. means it means Christianity is not monotheistic. I've got the smoking gun right here. It's polytheistic. And I thought the implications of that are significant. Who would ever ask me? No one. Right. Yeah. But now that I had started to create this art around the seal, I started assembling it into a scroll. And I thought, I'm going to end up with a 14 foot long scroll. Little did you know. Little did I know it was going to be 600 feet by the time I'm done. Yeah. And so that's, that's an example of how that process started. And as I started to obey by, okay, the spirit says zap. I'm going to electrocute you. I'm going to you a chance here. And I'm going to, because you've just seen this thing. I'm going to tell you that's, that's important. And so what I would do is I would draw it, paint it, research it, write about it. The Egyptians were commanded whenever they received a revelation to write and draw it. And so I realized I was giving that command. And every time I did that, I was given more. So now I'm, ⁓ watching ancient aliens on TV and there's this rock carving and I, and I get an electric current go through my body and like, Okay. Really? I know what I'm, I know what I'm working on now. Nice. And it turns out they're all astronomy, every single thing. And it turns out that painting that I did is completely in reverse. I painted it completely backwards. Okay. So because the cylinder seal, all the images of it, they're showing you the negative. Okay. And so I painted the negative image because that's That's what all the images were. Well, it turns out you're supposed to do the positive. OK, and as soon how did I realize that? Because now I identified all of these constellations. OK, I said, ⁓ this is a schematic of the cosmos. This heavenly council being depicted here are the constellations. OK. And that was the key that cracked everything open. I'm like, OK, so if that's Leo and that's cancer. And that's Orion and that's Virgo and that's Hydra and and it all and that's the tree of life. The Milky Way. All of that stuff is being depicted in that in that scene. ⁓ my gosh. So as far as I know, I cracked that code. OK. And the scroll is about that multiplied. By an insane amount of documentation, which are working. Yep, and Joseph Smith's restoration does more to illuminate that astronomy and how it was understood in antiquity than any other source since it was understood by its creators 2,000 years ago. My mind is blown. But all of this hinges on like bringing all of us together. What it, what it does universal, what it does is it says everybody was doing the same ordinances in their temples. Okay. In Hindu temples, they're performing these celestial ordinances in Buddhist temples. They're performing these celestial ordinances. It means all of a sudden I thought Only the Church of Jesus Christ was performing these celestial ordinances. It turns out everybody's doing it. Okay. So ordinances you mentioned were constellations. what we understand them. Okay. In the way that Joseph Smith brought them about you believe that that he got it correct. ⁓ I'm trying to continually understand what Joseph was saying ⁓ in the plain old scripture. We just studied as a church section 88 of the doctrine covenant, which is nothing but astronomy. it's the astronomy of, of that every ancient temple was doing. And that's what Joseph restored. don't, I don't know. No one mentioned that in my gospel doctrine class. I didn't listen very well. It has a lot to do with the priest. What people latch onto is, the priesthood authority. it's like, there's that concrete thing that we, that we're doing and all the rest of the verses are just glossed over because they're astronomical. It talks about the celestial kingdom and the terrestrial kingdom, cetera. I hope I'm not coming across badly. I'm, only trying to say this is my experience. I hope a billion other people have something, hopefully not as crazy as what I'm saying, but I in no way think I'm describing something exclusive. I I'm a ⁓ mystical person. I get revelations. I have had visions. I don't apologize for that. And I hope a billion other people do too. And I think that they do. And that this is all part of one great human unconscious ⁓ knowledge that I think the restoration of Joseph has absolutely smashed it out of the park. But we don't have the language to understand it because we inherited that bias against astronomy that was pounded into the world when they feared another astronomical sign could unseat them from their power. And then we only have Greek and Hebrew, which aren't even the original language. The original language is simply astronomy. And it was so ubiquitous and so known. to everyone that no one thought anyone would ever even need to explain to them. And so you talked about a moment ago about suffering. Yes. And this astronomy goes in one internal round. Yeah. Okay. Astronomy is continually cycling. And the story that's being told is the story of the bread of life, how you're saved and how you become exalted. how you're saved and then become a multiplier. And so when someone says, when Jesus says that you're saved, he's talking about the seed. So the bread of life is grain. Okay. And this grain has seeds. There's two things that happen. Well, there's three things that happen to seeds. They either fail. Right. Or they get saved. Okay. To be planted again. Or. they become a stock bearing fruit, some 20 fold, some 40 fold, some 60 fold. Yeah. So the plan of salvation is the cycle of the bread of life. And it's a cycle. We're we're participating in in the cycle of the bread of life. We've been saved. First, and then we get planted in. What kind of ground do we get planted in? Jesus asks, right? You want to be planted in good ground so that you can yield good fruit, is to multiply yourself. Right. And then that grain gets eaten. That grain gets turned into bread. That's its real purpose. Your purpose is not to be saved. Your purpose is not to be a kernel that gets saved. Reserved. Because that's a waste. So yes, you want to be saved, but you want to be planted, not held in the hand or put in a jar. You want to be planted so that you, like Christ, can become the bread of life. You want to get eaten. Just like Jesus's disciples ate him. Okay. When we go, ⁓ when we go take the sacrament, we're eating. the bread that is Jesus. Right. And by eating that bread, we become his essence. Right. Okay. If you just want to be saved. Everybody gets saved. Now, whether you fall on stony ground or good ground, that's ⁓ kind of up to you, but everybody gets saved. That's the universalism Joseph Smith is talking about. Everybody gets saved, but you want to be planted. You want to grow, you want to multiply, and then you want that multiplication of kernels to become bread that gets eaten by your disciples. That's what the new Testament is teaching. And central to that process is the pulverizer, the mill. Okay. You cannot become the bread of life unless you go through the mill and get ground down to powder until you no longer resemble anything that you ever were. You know, you don't resemble the saved person that you were. You don't resemble the planted person. You don't resemble the fruit. that so beautifully proliferated off of you. Whatever you have become gets ground down in the mill to nothing and gets thrown into the bag with all the other flour that's been ground down and pulverized. And all of that grain that's been Pulverized into powder becomes one loaf of bread. So your kernels mean nothing. That's not your works, your accumulations, your identity, your, all of these things are pulverized into one hole that then gets baked in the fire. scriptures talk about the burning. Yeah. It's, it's not destroying wicked people. Interesting. It's cooking the bread. It's cooking the bread. And what does the bread get when it's baked? A golden crown. Okay. And when you, that's when you receive your golden crown is not this golden thing that sits atop your head. It's you have now been baked. so that you can be eaten by your disciples. And you keep that cycle going. Your manure from eating that bread fertilizes the next generation and makes it grow and makes a fertile place for that seed to land in. And you just go around and around in circles. cycle which a lot of religions believe in that cycle. Absolutely. And learning. That's the And I love this because it's collective. Like everybody is an active participant in it, which I believe so much. we actually talked about Patrick Mason a little bit earlier, but one of the things that stood out to me that he's taught is like, it's going to take all of us to create Zion. It's not just the Mormons. Like it's literally a worldwide effort. It is. I couldn't agree more to do this. And you cannot make a loaf of bread out of the 60 grains That you produced if you're prolific, you're gonna produce 60 grains You cannot make anything with those 60 grains. That's nothing I make bread on my own a lot and I actually I actually grind my own Girl grain, right? So I know that 60 grains is not it's like a handful. Is it? Yeah, isn't even a handful maybe maybe so a lot of those ⁓ If you're lucky, maybe a cup if you're like an overachiever. But look at how if you only are able to produce 10. Yeah, but you still get thrown in to the use. You're no less a part of that loaf of bread that's made. Then. Then a prolific producer, right? Yeah, that's cool. And and so. It. It shouldn't be mistaken that I think or anyone else thinks that you're Essence is lost in that process We don't need to go into all that. Okay, but that's not what i'm saying And that's not what any of them are saying because because in these religions that i'm talking about brian and cameron Aren't their whole essence. We have ⁓ eternal soul that's much older than this immediate experience that we're having. I agree. And that eternal being is divine, is eternal, is a God already. Already. Long time ago. That eternal being cannot be distinguished from God. So are we trying to achieve Godhood? then? Like, are we trying to achieve something after this life if we're already divine? In my opinion, yes, in Cameron's opinion, I want that. What we're trying to achieve is recognition of our divinity. Is just recognition. Recognition. To realize who you are is the game. So we are trying to realize who we are. Brynn. Not trying to earn God's approval of who I am. Or become something that you're not. to recognize that you already are divine. my gosh, I'm going to cry. And that... changes everything. So the gospel of Thomas, which is the guiding thematic scriptural influence on the scroll, was not canonized for this reason, because it says very plainly that you're a god. It says, if your leaders tell you the kingdom of God is in heaven, then the birds will precede you. If your leaders tell you the kingdom of God is in the sea, then the fish will precede you. But the kingdom is inside you and is outside you. And when you recognize this, you will realize that you are the children of the living Father. And and that's my religion. Yeah. And and so the purpose of a church or whatever it may be. If. It's true, in my own opinion. Is it will help its people recognize their divinity. That they inherently already have, they already are. And you've already. ascended those seals who knows how many millions of times just like the cycle of the cosmos teaches you is we're going around and around we're going around during the day we're going around in the month we're going around in the year we're going around in the cycle we're going around in the great cycle and it's always going all around in one eternal round and your Spirit, your eternal Spirit, has done that cycle an infinite number of times. It has that knowledge. And we're here on earth to recognize that we already have that knowledge. And so what I'm trying to do with my work is I'm hoping that someone will see a diagram or see a drawing or see a painting or read a paragraph and something will happen to them like happened to me when I saw that little crude drawing and they and they get a feeling that says I know what that That's familiar to me. That's familiar. I know what that is. And you do know what it is because you used to speak that language. You used to know that language forward and backward. And it's been sealed from us. It's been completely obscured from us. And my hope is to if I teach that language, if I reveal that language again and how it was. understood in the first century and in other times, I'm hoping that that our eternal spirits can say, I know what that is. I know exactly what that means. I don't know how I know what that means. Or I know that it's important and I want to know more about it. Yeah. And. I am not a proselytizing kind of guy, but someday when somebody goes through this scroll, they're going to come away thinking that, Jesus is the Christ and how they think that I don't care. And they're going to know that I honored Joseph Smith as the greatest prophet in 2000 years who tried to restore this and couldn't. It didn't take the way he understood it, in my opinion. But section 121 of the Doctrine and Covenants says this knowledge is simply going to be sealed until that seal is opened by the Lord. And then the knowledge that the forefathers have been waiting to be revealed since the Council first talked about it in heaven, it will all be revealed. And so it's been sealed. from the world. We've had scales over our eyes. Well, and maybe we haven't wanted it. Like, I know a lot of people agree with me in that they feel like they've never really been able to ask questions or they never even felt a need to really ask questions. And I keep having these amazing conversations with people that I'll share a thought and I'd be like, my gosh, I've thought that too. But I thought I was crazy and I didn't know who I could share with. And I just think more and more of us, we just, want more answers. Like what we have isn't working anymore or isn't enough or isn't sufficient anymore. And I'm hopeful. My mom always says we are living in ongoing restoration. We're going to get more. And I, I hold onto that dearly and I see evidence of that and I'm excited for it. Like, I really do believe that as we keep showing like, We want more. Like we're ready. Let us try again. That we're going to get more. Our religion promises that there will be scriptures brought forth all from all over. And that is already upon us. I mean, they're already there. The rig Vita, the Koran, the, we, have testaments of God. of Christ. All we have to do is be curious, loving and open to learn more. Yeah. You know, our own scriptures, our own scriptures are an unbeatable resource, but we have to learn the language that they were written in. That would I think. Yeah. To open it up. It's very confusing and we try to make sense of it with the language that we have. And yet even for I've been struggling with scripture lately, like it just isn't resonating with me at all. And in fact, that's why I've been doing the world religions course, because that really seemed like the next best thing for me. And it definitely has been, think you were on the right track and it has been beautiful and helping me. Just more, find more evidence of God's love for all of us. And that he is trying to connect and share with all of us because he loves all of us. And this is kind of helped me feel a little more hopeful when I get back into scripture again. I actually have more drive to dive into the Bible than I've ever had before, because that's kind of like, that's the old, that's the good stuff. Like that's our heritage right there where we started. And yes, we love the Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And it is awesome. But I've not put as much emphasis in the Bible. Yeah. And I'm excited to do to give it another try. It's super important. Super important. But I look at the at the Old Testament as a crime scene. Not I don't read the scriptures ⁓ as a literal fundamentalist. Yeah, I read the scriptures as clues to what what's going on. I do now. Yeah, like I've. That's been really helpful for me to be like, these were actually just people telling stories and trying to make sense of their world. Yeah. And which has also been translated so many times from so many different languages. And so I'm just going to take what I can get, but I'm not going to bank everything on this and put my soul or anyone else's soul on getting this right. Which I think we do that. Yes. The scriptures are not a coherent ideology. Yeah, they weren't they weren't even written to be They were written to be an encyclopedia of the variety of religious experience that those people were having At that place in time. Yep. Yeah and And so if read with that in mind you can see this voice and you can see this voice and you can see this voice and how god assembled these voices To create a truth that has moved the world. Yeah Right. And that it needs to continue to move the world by. Are recognizing the different voices and that takes discipline and scholarship to say who was saying this, who was saying this? Why did they say that? most of the average people do not have time for or the stamina even to do. hard. It's a lot of work. It's hard. It's a lot of work. And you're continually shattering and breaking your, certainty. that you had about this or that. You're, you're continually abusing yourself with punches in the gut. Yeah. That you hadn't had before. Who wants those? We want to keep our same thoughts, you know, that we have comfort in and that we have certainty in. don't, we don't want to keep punching ourselves in the gut with some new thing we didn't ever consider. that, and as you do that, like exactly, I think you were inspired. in your direction is to see that these are voices from all over the world that are contributing to this gospel. and so our our missionary sections of the doctrine and covenant section four, 11 and 12 that talk about the field is white already to harvest. Yes, my my dad had us memorize that and we would recite it. And you know what? It's a good thing. Yeah, because that's a Indo Persian. astronomical riddle. Of course it is. It is phenomenal and it is a riddle about how the cosmos is a diagram of the right hemisphere of the human brain. ⁓ my gosh. And it's an invitation. It's a call to de-emphasize the left brain concrete. Physical. That causes conflict and causes rage and causes wars. and to open up the right hemisphere of the brain where the shared subconscious of the whole world teaches us and abides. That's the Prince of Peace. The Prince of Peace is the right hemisphere of the brain in us. And phenomenally, Joseph Smith put this ancient riddle that's right in the middle of the first century AD right in our scriptures in plain sight and in such a way that all the that hundreds of thousands if not millions of people would memorize it. And isn't that magnificent? That's very cool. So I just love religion. I love religion. It's so exciting. It's I think. Yeah, I love religion, too. It's weird. And I love it for its weirdness, actually. It's complexity. It's complex. It's weird. beautiful. It's wild. you just either believe it or you don't. really. Faith is the whole thing. Yeah. The lectures on faith say, how did God do anything God did? faith. God practiced faith to create, yes, Joseph Smith says, everything that anybody has ever done, including God. was by faith. Yeah, completely religious or ever talking religion or not. Like you just had to believe it's Yeah, it's it is energy. Yeah, it is power and it is so cool. Well, Cam, you and I could talk for hours, but I have children. I have to get to bed and pick up from their grandma. But this was so insightful and so enlightening. And I'm just stoked about what you're doing and where this is going to take you and what. gifted is to the world. Thank you. And you're still, it's, we've got 300 more feet to go. This was a joy. It's going to be awesome. It'll be years and years. Yeah. But we can, if someone wants to, they can get started on the journey. I love it. How can people find you? apotheosis scroll.com. Okay. And I will link that in the shadow and be ready. There's a lot of heaven. The mother and the son are a pair. What do you think about that? I believe it. don't. I believe it. I don't. But I believe there's not a lot of information out there, which you have said. There's so much information out there. Once you know the language, the scriptures are full of the mother and the son. All right. Bringing salvation and redemption to the world, because she is the tree of life. And and he is the son. And and she produces all these seeds and he's the son that helps them to grow and that they they create life. The mother and the son, I just yeah, I love it. That's what it's all about. Oh, such good stuff. Thank you. Thank you, Cam. This is amazing. Our first like real conversation is so deep. And so and I'm here for all of it. I love it so much. Isn't that special? Yeah. So things can change, right? We're moving creatures. We're we're we're moving creatures, We are that we're changing. We're growing limbs. We're we're growing eyes and we're these wild, eternal things that are. Yes. These crazy, bizarre creatures. I love it. And it's and it's just wonderful. It is wonderful. OK, Kim, I love you. I love you. for being here. Thank you.