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Why the Church Should Laugh More with Tommy Woodard · Ministry Minded

0:11
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Ministry-Minded Podcast,
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a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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in our messy
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SPEAKER_00: ministries.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm your host,
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SPEAKER_00: Pastor Brad Gray,
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SPEAKER_00: and I'm delighted,
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SPEAKER_00: I am actually so delighted to share this episode with you.
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SPEAKER_00: I have one half of the skit guys,
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SPEAKER_00: Tommy Woodard,
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SPEAKER_00: who is obviously a Christian comedian,
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SPEAKER_00: entertainer,
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SPEAKER_00: and a pastor of
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SPEAKER_00: among so many other things.
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SPEAKER_00: And it was such a joy to get Tommy on this episode,
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SPEAKER_00: be able to talk about humor and the use of humor,
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the vehicle of humor as a tool for sharing grace with those who
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are in need,
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SPEAKER_00: and the role that comedy plays in the Christian faith.
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SPEAKER_00: That's not something that we often think about.
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SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I think
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SPEAKER_00: And even as we get into in this particular episode,
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SPEAKER_00: Tommy and I,
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oftentimes I think the church and Christianity can sometimes
1:08
come across very
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SPEAKER_00: stoic.
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There's this sense that holiness is and ought to make us so
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much more serious and
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SPEAKER_00: that we can't have,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: just a laugh a time or two.
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SPEAKER_00: But actually...
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Actually,
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I think,
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as has often been said,
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that you will know the redeemed by their laughter.
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SPEAKER_00: And Tommy and I share a good laugh in this episode,
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SPEAKER_00: talking about so many different things,
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so many different aspects of ministry and life in this world
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that we are living in
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SPEAKER_00: that is so fraught with chaos and scandal and whatnot,
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SPEAKER_00: and
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SPEAKER_00: a time or two, you need to laugh.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'm very thankful for this episode.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm very glad to be able to call Tommy my friend after this,
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SPEAKER_00: and just really sit back and enjoy this one.
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SPEAKER_00: Tommy is just a really good conversation partner,
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and I think you'll enjoy this one as we talk about faith and
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humor and the role
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SPEAKER_00: that both of those play as we live the Christian life.
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SPEAKER_00: So hopefully you're blessed by this one.
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SPEAKER_00: Sit back and relax and enjoy this one.
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SPEAKER_00: Tommy Woodard, it's so good to have you on the show today.
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I'm so excited that you have hopped on here and we can just
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chat about a lot of
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SPEAKER_00: different things.
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There's a lot of places I want to go,
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but first of all,
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thank you for being here.
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SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Brad.
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SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to it.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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So for people who don't know you or kind of aren't familiar
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with you or perhaps the
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SPEAKER_00: things that the Lord has called you to,
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can you kind of just introduce yourself and where the Lord has
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you and what God has
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SPEAKER_00: you doing in this current season of life?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so my name is Tommy Woodard.
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I'm probably best known as one half,
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had a ministry called the Skick Eyes for about 30 years.
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SPEAKER_01: Currently, our ministry is called 231 Collective.
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SPEAKER_01: Similar, but a little different mission.
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SPEAKER_01: We can talk about that sometime.
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And then also I am a husband of 30,
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it'll be 35 years this December,
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have two kids,
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grown kids.
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And then I have been a pastor working in local churches in some
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form or fashion since 1987.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm currently a lead pastor at a church in Oklahoma.
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SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
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SPEAKER_00: Praise the Lord for your faithfulness, Tommy.
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SPEAKER_01: He's good to let me do what I do.
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Yeah,
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he lets kind of bumbling people like us do stuff,
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which is kind of grace,
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right?
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SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
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SPEAKER_00: That's grace.
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SPEAKER_00: That's right.
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What are some ways that you've seen maybe your approach to
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ministry or your
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SPEAKER_00: thoughts about ministry and maybe even just the life of the church that
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SPEAKER_00: kind of develop over the years?
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SPEAKER_00: You said you've been involved in the church since the late 80s.
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So how do you feel like that's grown or developed or maybe even
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changed since then?
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You know,
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Brad,
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to be honest with you,
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for me,
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the word would be genuineness has changed for me.
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SPEAKER_01: When I first got into ministry in
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SPEAKER_01: I can't speak for other pastors.
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SPEAKER_01: For me, it was you had to look like you had it all together.
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SPEAKER_01: And there was a veil that you kind of put up and little walls you put up.
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Don't let anybody get too close because we wanted to portray
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that we had it all together.
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SPEAKER_01: And in my own personal story,
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SPEAKER_01: coming to this church,
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SPEAKER_01: the church that I'm at now,
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SPEAKER_01: I've been here for 23 years.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it'll be 23 years this year.
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It's a very genuine church,
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and that made me so uncomfortable when I came here.
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SPEAKER_01: And then in my own journey,
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SPEAKER_01: I went through a struggle with alcohol,
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SPEAKER_01: which caused me to come clean about a lot of things.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I think if there was one word that could describe how...
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SPEAKER_01: ministry has changed or how I've changed is just genuineness.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: I think that's really good,
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SPEAKER_00: Tommy,
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especially because I do think there's this level of expectation
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or pressure,
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SPEAKER_00: especially for church leaders to have all their ducks in a row,
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SPEAKER_00: have all the stuff put together.
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SPEAKER_00: They have to look polished.
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SPEAKER_00: They have to be eloquent all the time.
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And we can get to this because I do want to talk about the
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overlap of comedy and
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SPEAKER_00: faith,
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SPEAKER_00: but how has
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maybe comedy kind of and humor and that and those sort of
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things that you are quote
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unquote known for how have those kind of helped that journey so
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to speak because i
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at least for me like the idea of of having to be or like being
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comedic so to speak
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is that like walls coming down like you there is a level of
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genuineness that if you
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try and be funny without being totally genuine that it's not
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going to actually come
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SPEAKER_00: across well at all
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a couple of thoughts on that.
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SPEAKER_01: I we've said forever that humor breaks down walls for the truth to enter.
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SPEAKER_01: Like if you can get people to laugh, you can get them to listen.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I think that.
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SPEAKER_01: Humor is just disarming, and I think that's a big part of it.
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SPEAKER_01: I think, too, how does it play for me?
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SPEAKER_01: When I was 19 years old,
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SPEAKER_01: I was serving as an interim youth pastor at a church,
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SPEAKER_01: and this camp,
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SPEAKER_01: a statewide camp,
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SPEAKER_01: huge camp,
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sent me a letter saying,
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we'd like you to lead one of our breakout sessions.
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And I just thought I'd arrived because they've asked me to
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teach a breakout session
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SPEAKER_01: at this giant camp.
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SPEAKER_01: And I got the rules for anybody who was going to teach,
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SPEAKER_01: and I'm reading them,
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SPEAKER_01: and one of the rules literally said,
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SPEAKER_01: do not use humor in your teaching.
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SPEAKER_01: And I immediately picked up the phone,
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SPEAKER_01: I called the state office,
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SPEAKER_01: and I said,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm just reading through the rules.
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SPEAKER_01: This rule says...
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SPEAKER_01: not to use humor.
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SPEAKER_01: Is this like a hard rule or just a suggestion?
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And they're like,
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yeah,
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yeah,
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we don't want people using humor when they teach it.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a distraction, blah, blah, blah.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'll never forget,
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SPEAKER_01: 19,
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SPEAKER_01: wanted to be able to do this,
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SPEAKER_01: and what came out of my mouth was I said,
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SPEAKER_01: I can't do that.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, I can't.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to have a conversation without comedy.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to speak without it.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's that thing of...
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SPEAKER_01: When I was a child and my parents would hold me on their shoulder,
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people would laugh behind them and they'd turn around and the
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people would be like,
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SPEAKER_01: your kid's making faces at us.
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SPEAKER_01: So there's something innate in me that's like,
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SPEAKER_01: I just want to,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: the Christian way to say it is I want to bring people joy,
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SPEAKER_01: but at the end of the day,
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SPEAKER_01: I just like to make people laugh,
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SPEAKER_01: you know?
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SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know if that answers your question,
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SPEAKER_01: but that's kind of who I am,
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SPEAKER_01: the core of who I am.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it does.
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SPEAKER_00: And there's a couple of things on that.
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SPEAKER_00: Number one, which is,
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SPEAKER_00: there is,
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I'm glad you told that story because there is sort of this
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notion that the holier
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SPEAKER_00: we become,
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SPEAKER_00: the less fun that we can have,
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which I always like to push back on that notion just because I
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don't think that
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SPEAKER_00: when God is giving his people,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: commands to obey or showing them and instructing them,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: here's how life works best.
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SPEAKER_00: God's not coming across as like this cosmic killjoy that
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SPEAKER_00: And he's not,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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like a buzzkill for everyone's pursuit of joy and happiness or
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laughter or what
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SPEAKER_00: have you.
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SPEAKER_00: But we often perceive that way.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's like,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: the stream of Calvinism where everyone just,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: is so super hoity-toity.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know where that comes from.
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SPEAKER_00: But it's there.
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SPEAKER_00: And, like, there's this level of, like...
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SPEAKER_00: Holiness equals stoicism.
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SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: Number one, I don't think that's true to life.
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SPEAKER_00: But actually, I think if you read the Bible, there's a lot of comedy.
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SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of humor.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think humor is, in many ways, you can...
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SPEAKER_00: It's tantamount to the human condition.
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Life is funny,
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and we should be able to acknowledge the humor that's found
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within everyday life.
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SPEAKER_00: If we aren't, then I don't even know how we're going to get by.
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SPEAKER_01: Brad,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm reading through Exodus right now,
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SPEAKER_01: and my daily Bible reading is I read one page of the Bible a day,
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SPEAKER_01: and I write about it.
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SPEAKER_01: There's these books called Scripture Journals.
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And it's one page is scripture,
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and the other page is just a place to write.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I'm going through Exodus,
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SPEAKER_01: one page a day,
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because I think there's inspiration on every page of the Bible
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in some form or
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SPEAKER_01: fashion.
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SPEAKER_01: So I'm not reading for studying or learning.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm reading for inspiration.
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But I'm reading through Exodus,
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and I get to the plagues,
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and I read about the plague of frogs.
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SPEAKER_01: And I stop, and I just think, how...
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know if God did that because it's funny,
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SPEAKER_01: but when you think about a frog,
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SPEAKER_01: like they make these noises,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
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SPEAKER_01: They wobble or hop.
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SPEAKER_01: Like they don't have the ability just to like walk, you know?
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And you go,
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did God in the midst of all these plagues go,
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let's put a funny one in there.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, you just go, maybe, maybe not, you know?
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SPEAKER_01: But I think that, and then years ago, yeah, I have it right here.
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SPEAKER_01: It's one of my favorite books.
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SPEAKER_01: It's one of my favorite books.
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SPEAKER_01: Have you read The Humor of Christ?
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, no.
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SPEAKER_01: This book is from the 60s.
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SPEAKER_01: I think the copyright on it is 19...
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, 1964.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: So this book is from 1964.
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SPEAKER_01: And Elton Trueblood, he was reading nightly readings to his young son.
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SPEAKER_01: And his son started laughing at something that Jesus had said.
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SPEAKER_01: And Elton was like, I've never thought about that as being funny.
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SPEAKER_01: And so then he went back and looked at the things that Christ taught,
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SPEAKER_01: and he breaks down just some things that we go,
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SPEAKER_01: it's lost in translation for us.
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It doesn't seem funny to us,
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but it's highly possible Jesus had a great sense of humor.
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SPEAKER_00: He did.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad you mentioned Exodus,
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SPEAKER_00: which is really funny,
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SPEAKER_00: because that's why I'm preaching throughout my church right now.
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SPEAKER_00: And I love the scene of the plagues,
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SPEAKER_00: because you're right,
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SPEAKER_00: like that scene with the frogs,
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SPEAKER_00: and especially since in the Exodus narrative,
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SPEAKER_00: it mentions...
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SPEAKER_00: just how pervasive they were.
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SPEAKER_00: They were in the kitchens and the bedroom, the,
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SPEAKER_00: And you just imagine,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: everywhere people are going,
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SPEAKER_00: they're kind of just brushing frogs off tables and chairs.
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SPEAKER_00: Everywhere.
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SPEAKER_00: And we think of it as, like, this judgmental plague, which it is.
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But putting yourself in the shoes of an Egyptian,
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it's got to be at least a little bit funny.
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Like,
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it's got to be at least a little bit cracking a smile,
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at least a little bit.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think about the plagues where, like, when Jesus says...
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: uh,
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SPEAKER_00: to,
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SPEAKER_00: uh,
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SPEAKER_00: in the gospels where he talks about,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.
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SPEAKER_00: Like we think about,
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SPEAKER_00: I think even me,
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SPEAKER_00: considering myself a theologian,
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SPEAKER_00: I think about the theology of what he's trying to convey,
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SPEAKER_00: but just that image alone,
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SPEAKER_00: it's gotta be a funny image.
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You can see like Peter and John just like,
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what in the world is he talking about?
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SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's just, it's got, it's funny.
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SPEAKER_00: It's inherently funny.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, completely.
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SPEAKER_01: I think there's humor through it.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, let me say it this way.
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SPEAKER_01: I hope God has a sense of humor.
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SPEAKER_01: If he doesn't, I'm really in trouble.
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SPEAKER_01: That's all I can say.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think he does.
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SPEAKER_00: I think life kind of shows us that.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the other thing is like,
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SPEAKER_00: I think there's one of my friends,
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SPEAKER_00: he would say sometimes that I think you will know
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SPEAKER_00: the redeemed by the sound of their laughter or something like that.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think there's something to that because,
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SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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there's something to that because kind of like the
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vulnerability thing for a
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SPEAKER_00: preacher or a pastor,
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there's a sense in which laughter kind of allows us to know
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that we don't have to
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SPEAKER_00: take ourselves super seriously.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's not to say that everything is funny,
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SPEAKER_00: but it is to say that there's a,
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SPEAKER_00: there's a level of knowing that it's to kind of like Jesus juke this,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: Someone else has control over these moments,
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SPEAKER_00: so we can not take ourselves so seriously all the time.
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SPEAKER_00: We don't have to white-knuckle our way through life,
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SPEAKER_00: through this event or that crisis or what have you.
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SPEAKER_00: There's someone better who kind of is watching over us,
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SPEAKER_00: and that allows us,
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SPEAKER_00: it's kind of like the freedom to laugh,
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the freedom of a young child going up to their dad and just
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laughing with them.
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SPEAKER_00: That's a really, I think, powerful image for us as children of God.
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SPEAKER_01: Amen.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
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And the other thing I wanted to harp on or just kind of talk to
13:59
is I've had this
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SPEAKER_00: thought,
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SPEAKER_00: and I haven't done it,
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SPEAKER_00: so maybe it'll come out of this,
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SPEAKER_00: but I've had a thought a long time of comedians,
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SPEAKER_00: especially like stand-up comedians in today's day and age,
14:10
sort of like being the stand-in for secular preachers in the
14:13
sense that what
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they're doing is essentially what a preacher does on Sundays
14:18
more often than not.
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They have this crowd of people who are kind of basically in the
14:22
palm of their hands
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SPEAKER_00: and they have a responsibility to deliver a certain message to them,
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whether you're telling a series of jokes or whether you're
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preaching the Bible.
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SPEAKER_00: But either way,
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SPEAKER_00: there's a certain level of,
14:39
SPEAKER_00: like the telos is the same,
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SPEAKER_00: the goal is the same,
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SPEAKER_00: the end of it is the same,
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SPEAKER_00: in the sense that you're trying to bring these people to a certain point.
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And I love watching stand-up comedy and watching the ways in
14:50
which different comedians
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SPEAKER_00: they build a narrative over the course of,
14:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:56
SPEAKER_00: 50 odd minutes to where eventually,
14:59
SPEAKER_00: like,
14:59
SPEAKER_00: some of them have,
14:59
SPEAKER_00: like,
15:00
SPEAKER_00: these really powerful truths that they end up actually conveying.
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SPEAKER_00: And it sinks in way, way deeper.
15:07
Because as you said,
15:08
the walls are falling down because we're laughing so much.
15:10
And then suddenly there's,
15:12
like,
15:12
a gut punch of this point that the comedian is making.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: And it hits you differently.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: It hits you in such a powerful way.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think
15:20
That's a way in which I totally resonate in the sense that
15:24
humor plays into
15:26
SPEAKER_00: ministry and faith even.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: Brad,
15:30
SPEAKER_01: I love,
15:30
SPEAKER_01: and not everybody's gone there,
15:33
SPEAKER_01: but I love the trend of comedians who are making a point.
15:39
Because it's just,
15:41
I marvel to watch it,
15:43
you know,
15:43
because sometimes you don't see it coming.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: When years and years ago,
15:49
SPEAKER_01: I had this thought,
15:51
SPEAKER_01: and the thought was,
15:53
SPEAKER_01: what if...
15:54
Because I remember thinking Robin Williams would have been the
15:57
best preacher ever.
15:58
Like,
15:59
you would show up every Sunday going,
16:01
what's going to happen today,
16:03
you know?
16:04
SPEAKER_01: And then I started thinking about,
16:05
SPEAKER_01: what if all of these...
16:07
SPEAKER_01: And this is not a dig on any comedian.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: It was just a thought.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: But it's like, what if all these comedians were given this ability...
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Because God wanted them to use it to proclaim his story and his glory.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: And you go, good night, can you imagine what that would be like?
16:27
SPEAKER_01: And so I think the fact that so many of...
16:31
SPEAKER_01: more modern comedians have tried to put a point into what they're doing.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: I, I'm all for it.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, I love it.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: I, um, I did a show, uh, Friday night.
16:42
Um,
16:43
it was a marriage deal and,
16:46
and basically I tried to emulate what I've seen.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: So just a lot of comedy,
16:50
SPEAKER_01: a lot of laughter,
16:52
and then just three little hits on what do we need to do in our
16:56
marriages,
16:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
16:57
SPEAKER_01: and then a wrap up,
16:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
16:59
SPEAKER_01: and,
16:59
SPEAKER_01: um,
17:00
SPEAKER_01: I think that's the way to go.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: You know,
17:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
17:03
you can lecture people or you can make them laugh or you can
17:08
make them laugh and
17:09
SPEAKER_01: have a point.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: And that's always going to be my option, I think.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
17:13
I think it leads to truth actually finding more of a home and
17:18
inside our souls,
17:19
SPEAKER_00: inside our minds,
17:20
SPEAKER_00: inside our hearts,
17:21
SPEAKER_00: because like we said,
17:22
SPEAKER_00: there's all these barriers and
17:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe you can speak to this.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: What are some things that, you know, you've been in ministry a long time.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: You've probably preached a lot of sermons.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: What are some ways that,
17:34
SPEAKER_00: like,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: even like you said from that young time,
17:37
SPEAKER_00: the time when you were young,
17:39
SPEAKER_00: when they told you not to be humor,
17:40
SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
17:41
what are some ways that you've allowed humor to kind of inform
17:46
the way you approach
17:46
SPEAKER_00: preaching?
17:47
Because that's another thing,
17:48
too,
17:49
that sometimes,
17:50
you know,
17:50
either pastors are too funny or
17:52
SPEAKER_00: and their message gets lost.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Or sometimes they're just kind of sticklers,
17:56
SPEAKER_00: and they're stoics,
17:57
SPEAKER_00: and they don't allow any humor to seep through their words.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: So there is some sort of a balance, so to speak.
18:02
But how have you sort of seen that over the years kind of grow
18:07
and inform the way
18:08
SPEAKER_00: you approach preaching specifically?
18:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great question.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: I would think you could count on...
18:21
SPEAKER_01: Over the years of being a pastor, you could count on maybe two hands.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to overstate it.
18:27
Two hands,
18:28
the number of sermons that I've shared that didn't have humor
18:33
in them.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: When I sit down, because I preach at my church weekly...
18:40
SPEAKER_01: And some people would spell that W-E-A-K, but I spell it W-E-E-K.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: But I have a spot, you know, that I look at my outline...
18:53
If I can open with something funny,
18:55
I'm going to try to open with something funny.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: And then I have a certain spot in my outline where I look and I go,
19:02
SPEAKER_01: I need something humorous right there.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: Because you're holding an audience's attention for 30 minutes.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: They are schooled on watching things that are 30 seconds long.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: And so you've got to figure out how to do that.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: So going into Sunday morning for most Sundays...
19:22
I'm going to have something up front that I think will get at
19:25
least a chuckle,
19:26
SPEAKER_01: if not a good laugh.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: And then about,
19:29
SPEAKER_01: it's probably midway through,
19:31
SPEAKER_01: maybe a little past midway through,
19:32
SPEAKER_01: but around midway through,
19:34
I'm going to try to have a story that I think will get them to
19:37
laugh because it
19:38
SPEAKER_01: gets the blood flowing.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: And then from there...
19:42
SPEAKER_01: It's improv.
19:43
Like,
19:44
I've got what I'm planning on doing,
19:47
but I'm always open if a joke comes in.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Not at the expense of the message.
19:52
There's moments that you go,
19:54
humor's not appropriate at this point,
19:57
you know?
19:58
SPEAKER_01: But, yeah, and I've probably learned that the hard way.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: But...
20:03
SPEAKER_01: But I think that's it.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm always looking.
20:05
I'm going to try to start with humor and try to put it at least
20:08
halfway through the message.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: And it can't be forced.
20:12
There's several Sundays I'm stepping up on the platform and I
20:15
don't have something that I want.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: And then I just hope it happens, you know.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: You hope you find it along the way, so to speak.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's exactly right.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: I think that's very good,
20:29
SPEAKER_00: though,
20:29
because everyone has their different methods for homiletics and
20:34
studying and
20:34
SPEAKER_00: preaching and all that kind of stuff.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: But I think...
20:37
SPEAKER_00: And what I've definitely found,
20:39
SPEAKER_00: and I would say I'm not good at this,
20:40
SPEAKER_00: no one would call me a comedian by any stretch of the term,
20:43
SPEAKER_00: but I think what is really important is seeing the,
20:49
SPEAKER_00: like you could say humorous here,
20:51
SPEAKER_00: but even deeper is seeing the humanity.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: And as we kind of hinted at,
20:55
SPEAKER_00: I think seeing the humanness,
20:57
SPEAKER_00: especially within the Bible,
20:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:00
SPEAKER_00: we've already referenced Exodus.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think the point I've striven to make with
21:04
my folks at my church is just the notion that these individuals
21:08
that you're reading
21:09
SPEAKER_00: about,
21:10
SPEAKER_00: they may seem ancient,
21:11
SPEAKER_00: but they're way more like you than what you would ever,
21:15
SPEAKER_00: ever imagine.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: And where you would ever sort of, sometimes I think we do that too.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: It's like a disservice to us.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Like we,
21:23
SPEAKER_00: we draw these hard lines of,
21:25
SPEAKER_00: uh,
21:25
SPEAKER_00: they're,
21:25
SPEAKER_00: they're,
21:26
SPEAKER_00: they're not like us in this culturally or historically or whatever.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, but actually I,
21:31
they're like us in the sense that they're humans with fears and
21:34
worries and cares
21:35
SPEAKER_00: and bad hair days and all kinds of,
21:39
SPEAKER_00: all of the emotions that we go through,
21:42
SPEAKER_00: they went through.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think that level of humanity,
21:46
SPEAKER_00: it's a very short segue to finding the humor in life,
21:50
SPEAKER_00: which I think is really important.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you're spot on.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and I think the challenge is they are just like us
22:01
SPEAKER_01: their lifestyle is so different.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: And the way they view things is so different that we make them stoic.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately,
22:12
we have centuries of stoic teaching that has lent itself to
22:18
that rather than
22:19
SPEAKER_01: looking at the actual humanity of it all.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: And I think that
22:25
SPEAKER_01: especially with the Old Testament,
22:27
SPEAKER_01: like,
22:27
SPEAKER_01: I think that's where I so appreciate,
22:31
SPEAKER_01: like,
22:33
the extra writings of the rabbis throughout the years because
22:37
they do such,
22:38
SPEAKER_01: like,
22:39
SPEAKER_01: I can't remember where it is,
22:42
SPEAKER_01: but there's one that tells the story of Abraham and Isaac.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: And when you read that story,
22:48
SPEAKER_01: it says in Genesis that after the sacrifice,
22:52
SPEAKER_01: Abraham comes down from the mountains.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't say Isaac comes down from the mountain.
22:58
And one of the,
23:00
you know,
23:01
ancient Hebrew writers has said they think he ran away.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: Because his dad just tried to sacrifice him.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's more realistic.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: That's more human than he's like, oh, shucks, dad.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you didn't have to slit my throat.
23:18
You know,
23:18
I mean,
23:19
and the truth of the matter is you don't hear about Isaac again
23:24
until later.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: And when you hear about him, he's living somewhere else.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: So the story lends itself to being like,
23:33
SPEAKER_01: we paint the story like,
23:35
SPEAKER_01: oh,
23:35
SPEAKER_01: there's that ram and dad,
23:37
SPEAKER_01: you have such great faith.
23:38
And realistically,
23:40
if that tweenager or however old he happened to be was real...
23:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't know that he's going, my dad has so much faith.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: I think there's a moment where Abraham's going,
23:54
SPEAKER_01: son,
23:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry,
23:54
SPEAKER_01: but God has asked me to sacrifice you.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: And Isaac's like, which God?
23:59
SPEAKER_01: And Abraham's like, Yahweh.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: And Isaac's like, no way.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the thing that you're like, that feels more realistic.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: It definitely does.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
24:10
SPEAKER_01: the more we look at it,
24:12
SPEAKER_01: we realize,
24:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:13
SPEAKER_01: that's me being long-winded saying,
24:16
SPEAKER_01: I agree with you on that,
24:17
SPEAKER_01: Brad.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, they're us.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: They just dress different, you know?
24:21
And they have some different cultural things that we don't
24:25
have,
24:26
but they're us.
24:28
that's very true Tommy and I think it's I've written about this
24:33
and I think you
24:33
could maybe have some perspective on this too is just the
24:37
notion especially of
24:38
finding comedy in the midst of suffering and that's not trying
24:41
to make light of
24:42
people's problems or issues but kind of going back to the
24:46
comedians they're allowed
24:48
SPEAKER_00: to sort of poke fun at some of the
24:50
SPEAKER_00: the issues of the day,
24:52
SPEAKER_00: because they do so through this lens of finding the humor in,
24:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:55
SPEAKER_00: some such,
24:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:56
SPEAKER_00: social political thing that's happening in our world right now,
24:59
SPEAKER_00: but they do so in a very effective way.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's,
25:03
I think humor definitely is sort of like this driveway to
25:07
finding meaning and hope
25:09
SPEAKER_00: in the midst of life's struggles and,
25:12
SPEAKER_00: and trials.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: And I mentioned that scene in the plane,
25:15
SPEAKER_00: strange and automobiles movie where John Kennedy just starts laughing and
25:19
SPEAKER_00: When their car explodes.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that's kind of like real to life to where we are.
25:24
Like the only possible solution that we have in front of us is
25:28
just to just to laugh at it all.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: Laugh at this crazy life that God has given us.
25:34
So how is how have you seen sort of comedy be able to even
25:38
maybe personally or
25:39
SPEAKER_00: ministerially in your pastoral role?
25:42
How have you seen sort of comedy be able to play a role in how
25:45
you've like
25:45
SPEAKER_00: counseled or helped individuals through life's difficulties?
25:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
25:50
SPEAKER_01: I think as I would lean into saying as a pastor,
25:55
SPEAKER_01: the number of times that I have walked people through losing a loved one.
26:01
I don't know that there's,
26:02
you know,
26:03
a much more painful thing,
26:05
but you stop and think about
26:07
SPEAKER_01: how many times you've gathered for a funeral and you laugh.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: Like you get with family,
26:14
SPEAKER_01: you get with old friends,
26:16
you're heartbroken because somebody's gone that you're not
26:19
gonna get to see again
26:20
SPEAKER_01: until heaven.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: And as you talk, inevitably, I don't know a family that doesn't do it.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: As you talk, you look for the stories that,
26:31
SPEAKER_01: that lend themselves to laughter.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, we quote it, but I don't think we understand.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: Laughter is good medicine is not just something that you could,
26:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:42
SPEAKER_01: needlepoint and hang in your kitchen.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, that's the truth of God's word, you know?
26:47
And so I think that,
26:49
I think when we stop laughing,
26:51
I think we're sicker than we know,
26:54
you know?
26:55
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that God created it that way.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: I remember...
27:01
I was teaching one time about when Jesus was about to raise
27:07
Lazarus and it says Jesus wept.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: And I love, I love so much that it doesn't say he got misty eyed.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't say a tear rolled.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: It says he wept.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: And, like, that's ugly crying, right?
27:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, nobody wants to be seen weeping.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: You make weird noises, you know?
27:27
And then as I was talking about it when it actually came out
27:30
was he might have had
27:31
SPEAKER_01: a snot bubble.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: Because,
27:33
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:33
SPEAKER_01: when you start crying that hard,
27:35
SPEAKER_01: and then I was like,
27:38
SPEAKER_01: I wonder if snot bubbles were,
27:39
SPEAKER_01: like,
27:39
SPEAKER_01: God's little,
27:40
SPEAKER_01: like,
27:41
SPEAKER_01: Let's throw this.
27:42
Hey,
27:42
when they cry really hard,
27:44
their snot could create a bubble because that's funny.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: It's going to give them a release because nobody snot bubbles and goes,
27:50
SPEAKER_01: oh gosh,
27:51
SPEAKER_01: you snot bubble.
27:52
And then there's always a chuckle like,
27:54
oh my gosh,
27:55
I just blew a bubble with my nose.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: And so you go,
27:58
SPEAKER_01: I can't fathom the mind of God,
28:02
SPEAKER_01: but there are so many things that are just built into humanity that
28:08
SPEAKER_01: that lends itself to humor that I go,
28:10
SPEAKER_01: I just think that's what it,
28:12
SPEAKER_01: in my mind,
28:13
SPEAKER_01: that's what it has to be.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: It's like that,
28:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:16
I've read and studied and listened and comedy is inherently
28:21
funny because it takes
28:22
something that would be dangerous and kind of takes all the
28:26
danger out of it.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: Like the perfect example is someone kind of falling down the stairs and
28:33
And doing so in a funny way,
28:36
they've made it somewhat comedic and humorous.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: And you can sense the way in which that's leading us to meaning,
28:45
SPEAKER_00: leading us to some sort of point in other ways,
28:48
SPEAKER_00: not just in that specific scenario.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
28:52
SPEAKER_00: I love seeing the ways in which the humanness,
28:56
SPEAKER_00: like you said,
28:56
SPEAKER_00: Jesus weeping,
28:57
SPEAKER_00: the humanness of Jesus is
29:00
It allows us to definitely say he definitely had some belly
29:03
laughs with his apostles.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: They were definitely people who cut up.
29:06
You can imagine all these guys traversing over Judea,
29:11
just cutting up all the time.
29:12
And you kind of have to keep that sense of it because kind of
29:16
what you were hinting
29:16
SPEAKER_00: at before,
29:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:18
I grew up in churches and they had like those old flannel graph
29:22
sort of like Sunday
29:23
SPEAKER_00: school lessons.
29:24
And it's like sometimes that's how we even treat the characters
29:26
in the Bible,
29:27
just like sort of,
29:28
SPEAKER_00: Flannel graph composites and not real people.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: Brad.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of a detriment to us.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: Brad, I love that.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: And this is,
29:39
SPEAKER_01: you may or may not know,
29:40
SPEAKER_01: like our Easter series we made this year is flannel graph Easter.
29:45
And so what we did,
29:47
yeah,
29:47
what we did was we took and animated flannel graph boards and
29:53
SPEAKER_01: And so it all looks like what you had in Sunday school,
29:57
SPEAKER_01: but then the story that we tell is the deeper side of the story.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: So like,
30:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:02
SPEAKER_01: with Palm Sunday,
30:03
SPEAKER_01: your flannel graph looks like this,
30:05
SPEAKER_01: but what you're going to learn in that story is that,
30:09
SPEAKER_01: oh,
30:10
SPEAKER_01: they,
30:11
SPEAKER_01: the people were looking for a political revolution,
30:13
SPEAKER_01: right?
30:13
SPEAKER_01: But you don't talk about that in Sunday school.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I love that.
30:19
There's definitely some stories in the Bible that would not
30:21
have made the flannel graph cut.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, gosh, no.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: No, that's exactly right.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, goodness.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: So talk about skit guys,
30:31
SPEAKER_00: that minister you had for three decades,
30:33
SPEAKER_00: and kind of where that came from,
30:35
kind of like where that spark kind of came from and why it
30:39
endured for so long.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh, man.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it endured so long because...
30:46
SPEAKER_01: there's a need for Christian comedy, you know?
30:50
SPEAKER_01: And it endured so long, I think, because we were always for the church.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: We never made fun of the church, you know?
30:59
And I mean,
31:00
it literally was,
31:01
you know,
31:01
I went on a,
31:03
well,
31:03
it goes back to comedy.
31:05
I was gonna,
31:06
I graduated from high school and I wanted to go be on Saturday
31:10
Night Live.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: And a youth pastor conned me into going on a mission trip.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: He 100% lied to me.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: Like I was not going to go on the mission trip.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: I didn't care.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: And he said, hey, we need somebody to do drama on the mission trip.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: And I was so arrogant.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: I was like, well, if God needs drama, he needs me.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: And so I told him that I'd go on the mission trip.
31:34
And then he had to find something for me to do because he had
31:36
no plans for drama,
31:37
right?
31:38
SPEAKER_01: But he made good on his word.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: And he gave me this little book.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: And it had monologues written by a lady who'd written for Bob Hope.
31:49
And there was one monologue in there called A Substitute Worker
31:52
in Children's Church.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: I have it somewhere in this bookshelf.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: I still have the book.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: And I memorized it on this trip.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: I live in Oklahoma.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: We drove in and we were at a little bitty church in Mississippi.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:08
And I remember I stepped up on the stage for the very first
32:11
time to use my gifts
32:12
SPEAKER_01: and talents for God.
32:13
I'd never done that before because I went to church about once
32:16
a month during those days.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: And I performed a silly, I mean, it was silly little monologue.
32:24
And after it was over,
32:25
this sweet little old lady came up and she grabbed my hands and
32:29
she said,
32:30
SPEAKER_01: The Holy Spirit spoke to me through what you did tonight.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: And I was, Brad, I was blown away.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, at that point in my life, applause was my God.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: It's what I lived for.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: And I remember, I want more of that.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: And so since I would say May of 1987...
32:53
SPEAKER_01: I've been chasing that moment.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: Like when we talk about being called into ministry,
32:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:58
SPEAKER_01: if you go,
32:58
SPEAKER_01: hey,
32:58
SPEAKER_01: are you called to this ministry?
33:00
SPEAKER_01: I'd be like, I don't know.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: I just know I'm
33:03
I've been chasing that moment ever since it happened to be used
33:07
in some way that
33:08
SPEAKER_01: the Holy Spirit would speak to somebody's heart,
33:10
SPEAKER_01: you know?
33:11
SPEAKER_01: And then,
33:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:13
my buddy graduates from high school and we start doing skits
33:17
for our youth group.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: And then we start doing skits for our youth pastor's friends.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: And then it just begets and begets and begets.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: And
33:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, before you know it, we're traveling around and doing skits.
33:32
God did such a beautiful job of bringing a guy named Brian
33:35
Cates into our life who
33:38
SPEAKER_01: would start filming us.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: And we started making videos.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: And we kind of hit that sweet spot where YouTube was taken off.
33:47
And,
33:47
you know,
33:48
God's Chisel was probably our most famous of all the videos
33:53
that we did.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: That went viral.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
33:57
SPEAKER_01: so we had,
33:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:59
SPEAKER_01: in some form or fashion,
34:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
34:01
SPEAKER_01: as the Skit Guys,
34:03
SPEAKER_01: I think the Skit Guys,
34:06
SPEAKER_01: we chose that name in 1997.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: So in 97, you know, and then I think, you know, how did it go so long?
34:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, God's just good.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: I would love to say it was something that we did.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: I
34:23
SPEAKER_01: Brad, I can't say that.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: I think God was so kind to us to allow us to do that as long as we did.
34:31
And I will say,
34:33
you know,
34:34
post-2020,
34:35
you know,
34:36
live shows kind of tapered off.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: A lot of the conferences that we'd been doing stopped happening.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: There was a real change in some things that happened, you know.
34:47
And then God started moving in some of our hearts about what
34:52
our motivation was and
34:56
SPEAKER_01: why we did what we did.
35:00
And so that kind of that kind of started the push towards kind
35:05
of transitioning to
35:06
SPEAKER_01: what we're doing now.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: So when when you were sort of in the quote unquote heyday of guys,
35:12
SPEAKER_00: when did you kind of realize like,
35:15
SPEAKER_00: hey,
35:15
SPEAKER_00: this is a real thing like that we can do,
35:18
not just for your people or locally like this is something we
35:21
can go around the
35:22
SPEAKER_00: country with.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
35:24
SPEAKER_01: we used to say we would never do that as a full-time job,
35:28
SPEAKER_01: and I never stopped working at the local church.
35:34
Like,
35:34
I just,
35:35
with all of her faults and failures and mistakes,
35:39
and man,
35:40
there's a lot,
35:41
right?
35:42
I still believe that the local church,
35:45
that she's a part of the Bride of Christ,
35:48
and
35:49
SPEAKER_01: And I just, I love it.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: And so I was working as a full-time youth pastor.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: We were starting to do a lot more events, and I could not handle both.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: And so an opportunity came up for me to move to this church,
36:05
SPEAKER_01: and I didn't want to come to this church.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: And so when I met with the pastor...
36:12
SPEAKER_01: I said, okay.
36:15
SPEAKER_01: He said, would you like to be our youth pastor or our worship leader?
36:19
SPEAKER_01: And I said, neither.
36:20
And I remember he sat back in his chair like,
36:22
why am I buying this guy lunch?
36:24
SPEAKER_01: But to his credit, he leaned forward and he said, what do you want to do?
36:27
SPEAKER_01: And I said, I want to be in a secondary leadership position.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: I want to be able to miss one Sunday a month.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: I want to be gone every week in the summertime.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: You know, like I threw it all out there.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: There's no way they're going to say yes.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: And to his credit, it took a couple of weeks.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: A couple of weeks later, he reached out and he said, okay, let's do it.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: Now, when we did that, it caused me to move.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: Fortunately, it was moving back home.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: So I like that.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: To move and to take about a 50% pay cut.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: And so there was a bit of a,
36:59
step of faith to go,
37:01
okay,
37:02
I'm counting on this Skit Guys ministry to pick up the slack.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: And God was just so faithful.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: And,
37:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:13
SPEAKER_01: after that,
37:15
SPEAKER_01: that was when we connected with Brian,
37:16
SPEAKER_01: because Brian started working at this church.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: And a little bit after that, we created a
37:22
a six DVD series with Zondervan called You Teach and You
37:28
Specialties picked us up.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, it just, it just went gangbusters.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: And, but I still would say, you know, did we ever do that full time?
37:39
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, people would ask, is this your full time job?
37:41
SPEAKER_01: And I was always like,
37:42
SPEAKER_01: ah,
37:43
SPEAKER_01: no,
37:43
SPEAKER_01: I also work at a church,
37:45
SPEAKER_01: but my church has always been very gracious with my time too.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: That's
37:52
SPEAKER_00: You're right.
37:52
Like for all of its warts,
37:54
like God's still using his church for his purposes.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: And it's great to realize that even as we look back over the years,
38:01
SPEAKER_00: like here's what God was doing,
38:04
SPEAKER_00: even if it wasn't apparent to us in the moment.
38:06
Brad,
38:07
I can't tell you,
38:08
but you know,
38:10
you talk about during the heyday of Skit Guys.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you two things, like the heyday of Skit Guys.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: One, there was a season where
38:20
SPEAKER_01: We probably did, gosh, a little over 100 shows in one year, right?
38:28
SPEAKER_01: And so almost every weekend I'm somewhere.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: And some of those shows were week-long, like camps and stuff.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: And I can't tell you the number of times I'd get in at 1 a.m., 2 a.m.
38:40
in the morning on a Saturday night,
38:42
and then I had to be at church the next morning.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: And it was so hard to drag myself out of bed and get there.
38:49
And I'd be sitting on the front row,
38:51
and that first song would start playing.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden,
38:55
SPEAKER_01: my countenance changed,
38:57
SPEAKER_01: my heart changed,
38:58
SPEAKER_01: and it's just like,
38:59
SPEAKER_01: oh,
38:59
SPEAKER_01: that's right.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: This is where I want to be.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: I love it so much.
39:03
And then the other thing is,
39:05
you know,
39:06
when we filmed the movie Family Camp,
39:08
that was a four...
39:10
SPEAKER_01: four or five week shoot, right?
39:12
SPEAKER_01: Every day.
39:15
And I figured out how to sneak away on one weekend and get back
39:23
to church and
39:24
SPEAKER_01: preach a sermon because I just missed it so much.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: So like, yeah, I love the church.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: You kind of alluded to this, but everyone kind of sensed that
39:38
the world was changing throughout covid and whatnot all those
39:41
years that shall not
39:42
be mentioned but what are some what are some ways that you have
39:46
also kind of seen
39:48
like like comedy change like from like the 2010s on i feel like
39:54
there's been a
39:54
different way in which our society has approached comedy so
39:57
how's that kind of like
39:59
influence has that influenced you and like how have you kind of
40:02
perceived that
40:03
And just how have you kind of like wrapped your mind around
40:08
that over the over the
40:09
SPEAKER_00: year,
40:09
SPEAKER_00: so to speak?
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I'm going to sound like an old man.
40:16
I think I think we went through a period and we're probably
40:21
still there to a degree where.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, how do you say it?
40:28
There's a bit of an enlightenment in some of our comedy,
40:32
and I think that's wise.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: There really is some enlightenment,
40:37
SPEAKER_01: in meaning there was,
40:39
SPEAKER_01: for way too long,
40:40
SPEAKER_01: we made fun of things that we shouldn't have been making fun of,
40:43
SPEAKER_01: you know?
40:44
And it was at the expense of certain people that,
40:48
you know,
40:48
jokes would be played and
40:50
SPEAKER_01: And so you learn that's not right.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: I think as it is with most things in life, it's a pendulum swing.
40:56
I think it's possible that it swung too far and you couldn't
40:59
really make fun of
40:59
SPEAKER_01: anything or anybody,
41:00
SPEAKER_01: you know.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's coming back some.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: I think that's what I would say more than anything.
41:12
I think that we went through a,
41:14
well,
41:16
I think it's also changed in a negative way.
41:19
Because I think what we saw happen post-pandemic is we are more
41:24
tribal than we've ever been.
41:26
And therefore,
41:28
you see a lot of comedy that is tribal comedy as opposed to
41:33
just...
41:34
SPEAKER_01: universally funny things.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: And tribal comedy is always at the expense of the other tribe.
41:41
And I think that makes me sad because Paul's very explicit that
41:48
he says we should
41:49
SPEAKER_01: have nothing to do with things that divide us.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: And I think the church runs these days to things that divide us.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: And Paul doesn't give exceptions.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't say,
42:01
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:01
have nothing to do with things that divide you unless it's
42:03
political and it will
42:05
SPEAKER_01: help you out financially or whatever.
42:07
SPEAKER_01: He just says it has nothing to do with it, you know.
42:09
And so I think that's the negative change would be we're so
42:14
much more tribal since
42:15
SPEAKER_01: the pandemic and we haven't recovered from that.
42:17
SPEAKER_01: And I hope we can.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: I hope so, too.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: Not just for the sake of comedy,
42:23
SPEAKER_00: but just for the sake of just our well-being,
42:26
SPEAKER_00: because that tribalism definitely is a detriment,
42:29
SPEAKER_00: not just for churches,
42:31
SPEAKER_00: but for society at large.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: You can just see that wedge that is often driven between folks.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's actually, ironically enough, kind of
42:43
where humor can step in because it is this bridge gapping sort
42:49
of ministry,
42:49
if you will.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: It's this device,
42:51
this vehicle that allows us to sort of bridge the gap between
42:55
people who would
42:55
SPEAKER_00: otherwise be divided.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: I think that's, it's a really powerful moment, I think.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: Like comedy always goes through,
43:04
SPEAKER_00: at least,
43:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:05
SPEAKER_00: for as long as I've been alive,
43:06
you can kind of see it go through ebbs and flows and has
43:09
different moments or
43:10
SPEAKER_00: whatnot.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: But I definitely think
43:11
SPEAKER_00: at least hopefully for me,
43:13
SPEAKER_00: because as someone who has,
43:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:14
SPEAKER_00: just is interested in that world,
43:19
SPEAKER_00: I hope that comedy sort of has a moment to where it can kind of bring,
43:22
SPEAKER_00: bridge some of those gaps between individuals that have kind of been,
43:25
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:26
SPEAKER_00: stiff-armed for a long time.
43:29
I look forward to that day,
43:31
and I hope that the church can lead out in that.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: I haven't seen it yet, but I sure hope the church can lead out in that.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: What would you say to preachers?
43:44
Like,
43:45
I wouldn't say I figured anything out and you would probably
43:47
say you haven't either.
43:48
But what would you say to preachers just as like,
43:50
I don't know,
43:52
like this call to them?
43:54
SPEAKER_00: What would you summon them towards?
43:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I...
44:00
SPEAKER_01: So many things, Brad.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: I'll get myself in trouble if I told you what I really thought.
44:05
SPEAKER_01: You can tell me that after we're done recording.
44:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, I just think...
44:12
SPEAKER_01: I just think,
44:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
44:13
SPEAKER_01: I heard long ago,
44:14
SPEAKER_01: preach the truth,
44:15
SPEAKER_01: live your convictions,
44:17
SPEAKER_01: and never do the opposite.
44:19
And I think that there's way too many people preaching their
44:24
convictions these days.
44:26
I think that there's way too many people that think God needs
44:31
them to defend Him.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: I think that somewhere down the road...
44:37
SPEAKER_01: You know,
44:37
SPEAKER_01: whether it was with the Puritans,
44:38
SPEAKER_01: whoever,
44:40
SPEAKER_01: we decided we're the morality police of the world.
44:43
SPEAKER_01: And I don't see Jesus teaching that.
44:46
SPEAKER_01: I think we need to have morals and live them.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: I don't see him...
44:53
SPEAKER_01: or Paul telling us to impose our morals on society.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: And so I just think we've got,
45:03
we've got a long history of gathering together and railing
45:07
against society.
45:09
Letters that were written to the church,
45:11
not written to society,
45:13
you know?
45:14
SPEAKER_01: And so like, I think, I think we've got to wake up from that.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, I mean,
45:23
SPEAKER_01: I think humor is a great way to do it.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you make fun.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: I make fun of myself.
45:29
SPEAKER_01: Yesterday I was teaching about, you know, what is forgiveness?
45:32
SPEAKER_01: And I literally told a story about how I...
45:36
I was just trying to park my car in a Jason's Deli parking lot,
45:40
and I nailed another car.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: And, like, I just nailed it.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: And,
45:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:46
SPEAKER_01: I drive a Jeep with a stupid big bumper,
45:49
SPEAKER_01: like I'm going to go save the world with it,
45:50
SPEAKER_01: and it never leaves the highway,
45:52
SPEAKER_01: you know.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:55
And the guy,
45:56
I wrote a note on the car and left it with all my information,
45:59
you know.
45:59
SPEAKER_01: And as I'm walking into Jason's Deli, this guy and his wife walk past me.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: And I turn and look.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: And sure enough, they're walking to the car that I just hit.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: And I run over there, you know.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: And he's reading the note.
46:13
SPEAKER_01: And I said, hey, I hit your car.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: He's like, what?
46:15
SPEAKER_01: I was like, I hit your car.
46:16
SPEAKER_01: He's like, how?
46:17
SPEAKER_01: I was trying to park.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: I was trying to park.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: All right?
46:24
SPEAKER_01: And he looks at it, and he goes, oh, you did?
46:26
SPEAKER_01: I was like, yeah, because this is pretty good gash.
46:28
SPEAKER_01: And he looked at me, and he goes, don't worry about it.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, no, all my information's on there.
46:33
SPEAKER_01: If you want to reach out, I'll have my insurance take care of it.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: And he goes...
46:36
SPEAKER_01: Don't worry about it.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, he just drove off.
46:39
And,
46:39
you know,
46:40
I mean,
46:40
forgiveness is absorbing the sin that was done to you.
46:44
You absorb it,
46:44
you don't make any,
46:45
but his car literally absorbed what I did,
46:48
right?
46:48
SPEAKER_01: And he just drove off.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: And to my knowledge,
46:50
he's driving in the car today with a dent in the side of it
46:52
that I put there,
46:53
SPEAKER_01: you know?
46:55
SPEAKER_01: But you go like self-deprecating humor,
46:58
SPEAKER_01: like every pastor would do well to use as much as they can.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think...
47:08
SPEAKER_01: Judgment coming in in three, two, one.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: I think most pastors are too insecure to use real self-deprecating humor.
47:22
I think most pastors are too insecure to really be honest about
47:25
their struggles and
47:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, I struggle with overworking.
47:29
SPEAKER_01: You know, I struggle with doing too much.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: I struggle with loving too much.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: You know, and you're like, I struggle with being too much like Jesus.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: You know,
47:37
SPEAKER_01: and I,
47:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:39
SPEAKER_01: at some point I had to stand in front of my congregation and say,
47:42
SPEAKER_01: hey,
47:43
SPEAKER_01: my name is Tommy.
47:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm a grateful believer in Jesus Christ who's had a battle with alcohol.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: And you go like, okay, well, I've told him,
47:53
SPEAKER_01: My darkest stories, so what else is there, you know?
47:58
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I kind of rambled there.
48:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I even answered your question.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: No,
48:02
I think that's a perfect answer because it circles back to what
48:05
we spoke to at the
48:06
SPEAKER_00: beginning.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: But I think you're so right.
48:10
Pastors should be free enough in who they are in Christ to be
48:14
the butt of the joke.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of what allows the Holy Spirit,
48:20
SPEAKER_00: just your experience with that elderly lady when you were young,
48:23
SPEAKER_00: it allows God to move because people don't have their guards up.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: I often think my clarion call to the church,
48:32
SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
48:32
SPEAKER_00: would just be,
48:34
SPEAKER_00: I resonate with this so much,
48:36
SPEAKER_00: I love watching football.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: And several years ago,
48:40
SPEAKER_00: back when Aaron Rodgers was,
48:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:42
SPEAKER_00: like one of the most successful quarterbacks in the NFL,
48:47
SPEAKER_00: he had that one press conference where he just spelled out the words.
48:51
SPEAKER_00: He spelled out the word relax to all of the press conference.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: He's just like R-E-L-A-X to people.
48:57
SPEAKER_00: He just did it in this very dry, monotone.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: And I often think that, like, if Paul were to come back,
49:06
SPEAKER_00: to life.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: Like if we had like a DeLorean and we brought him to 2026,
49:11
SPEAKER_00: I think his word to the,
49:13
SPEAKER_00: his,
49:14
SPEAKER_00: if he wrote an epistle to the American church,
49:16
SPEAKER_00: I think it would just be dear church,
49:19
SPEAKER_00: relax in love,
49:22
SPEAKER_00: Paul,
49:22
SPEAKER_00: because like,
49:23
I feel like we're so like tense and that tension brings out all
49:27
of these other
49:28
SPEAKER_00: emotions.
49:29
But finally,
49:29
if we just like grace,
49:31
it kind of gives us the freedom just to,
49:33
to breathe,
49:34
to like release all that tension,
49:37
which is also what humor does.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: It releases tension.
49:41
And we understand that we aren't the ones that are going to
49:45
bring in the kingdom of God.
49:47
I often think of those words that Jesus gives to his followers
49:51
in Luke 12.
49:52
SPEAKER_00: He's like, is the father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom?
49:57
SPEAKER_00: Like we're not the ones building it.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: So we can relax.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: We can just announce that it's coming.
50:01
SPEAKER_00: We can just
50:02
SPEAKER_00: announce and welcome people to be a part of it.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: Like that is a much freer message than kind of like what you alluded to.
50:11
SPEAKER_00: Like often the church circles the wagons and we're going to like just,
50:15
SPEAKER_00: we're going to be the last bastion of truth in the midst of this really,
50:19
SPEAKER_00: no,
50:20
SPEAKER_00: we can relax.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: God's going to bring in his kingdom in his time.
50:24
And what humor we should find in the fact that he's kind of
50:29
what we talked about.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: that he's allowed us to kind of have a part in that.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: That's just funny.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: Oh, 100%.
50:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: When has he ever counted on us?
50:38
SPEAKER_01: Like it would be,
50:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm not God,
50:43
SPEAKER_01: and I can look at the whole history and be like,
50:45
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
50:45
SPEAKER_01: you don't want to count on us.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: And so if he's counting on us to do it, like, come on.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: That just doesn't make sense.
50:53
SPEAKER_00: Not to keep circling back, but I think of that moment.
50:57
SPEAKER_00: in Exodus three and four,
50:58
where God is calling Moses to be this like sociopolitical
51:03
figure that's going to
51:04
SPEAKER_00: lead Israel out of Egypt.
51:06
SPEAKER_00: And he's calling a guy who has a speech impediment.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: Like that's God's sense of humor.
51:12
SPEAKER_00: Like his sense of humor is like,
51:14
SPEAKER_00: you're going to have to be a speech maker,
51:16
SPEAKER_00: but you have really terrible speech patterns.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of God just bringing out this sense of irony,
51:23
SPEAKER_00: and grace in the midst of,
51:25
SPEAKER_00: of,
51:25
SPEAKER_00: of Moses's like life that has not gone according to plan,
51:29
SPEAKER_00: according to Moses's,
51:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
51:30
SPEAKER_00: five-year sketch for his life.
51:33
But I think that that,
51:34
that allows us to see that God does have a sense of humor.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I think it's beautiful.
51:39
SPEAKER_01: I think too,
51:40
SPEAKER_01: Brad,
51:40
SPEAKER_01: you,
51:40
SPEAKER_01: you mentioned something about that,
51:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:42
SPEAKER_01: this,
51:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:43
SPEAKER_01: I think you said sociopolitical figure and,
51:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:46
SPEAKER_01: I was talking with another pastor a while back and we were,
51:50
SPEAKER_01: we weren't
51:51
SPEAKER_01: I would say we were discussing, we really weren't arguing.
51:53
He's so close to me and we discuss things and don't agree on
51:57
things sometimes.
51:58
And I was talking about how I feel like art,
52:04
well,
52:04
I believe it's really true.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: Art is upstream of politics.
52:07
Like art shapes people's thoughts and minds without them even
52:11
knowing it most days,
52:12
right?
52:13
SPEAKER_01: And politics is below that, and art affects politics.
52:16
SPEAKER_01: And we know that.
52:17
SPEAKER_01: We've seen it done in a negative way.
52:19
SPEAKER_01: I hope we've seen it in a positive way.
52:22
SPEAKER_01: But,
52:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
52:23
SPEAKER_01: some of the changes in our society,
52:25
SPEAKER_01: for better,
52:25
SPEAKER_01: for worse,
52:26
SPEAKER_01: have come through art rather than politics.
52:29
And,
52:30
you know,
52:30
somebody,
52:31
he came back with something about,
52:33
you know,
52:34
nobody's called to art.
52:36
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, yeah, well, who's called to politics, you know?
52:39
And he started naming people,
52:42
and I was like,
52:42
yeah,
52:43
but none of them wanted it.
52:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, none of them wanted it.
52:48
It's not like they're like,
52:49
ooh,
52:49
I'm going to go get elected so that I can do this.
52:52
SPEAKER_01: It's like God shoved them in that position more than anything.
52:56
SPEAKER_01: So anyway.
52:58
SPEAKER_00: He really had to give Moses a kick in the pants in order to do that.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh, right.
53:02
SPEAKER_01: Hold on.
53:02
SPEAKER_01: Let me get your brother in here.
53:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's just the worst.
53:05
SPEAKER_01: If anybody,
53:06
SPEAKER_01: if any parent has told their kid to do something,
53:09
SPEAKER_01: then like,
53:09
SPEAKER_01: fine,
53:09
SPEAKER_01: I'll get your brother to do it.
53:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, you're like, golly.
53:13
SPEAKER_00: What are some,
53:15
SPEAKER_00: what are some things,
53:16
or maybe what is a thing that you've kind of learned that you
53:20
really hold on to
53:21
SPEAKER_00: from your,
53:21
SPEAKER_00: from your time with skit guys and kind of what that,
53:26
SPEAKER_00: Did for you and maybe your family or your church,
53:28
or what was something that you kind of still hold on to from
53:31
your experiences in
53:32
SPEAKER_00: different places and venues and whatnot?
53:36
SPEAKER_01: Families need safe places to go to be entertained together.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that's the biggest thing.
53:45
I mean,
53:46
I,
53:48
you know,
53:48
of all the things that we got to do,
53:52
you know,
53:52
since I was...
53:55
SPEAKER_01: A part of my story,
53:56
SPEAKER_01: too,
53:56
SPEAKER_01: I came home from that mission trip,
53:58
SPEAKER_01: and I went to my senior pastor,
54:03
SPEAKER_01: and I said,
54:03
SPEAKER_01: hey,
54:04
SPEAKER_01: are there Christian actors?
54:05
SPEAKER_01: And he said, he was originally from Louisiana, he said, oh, yes, Tommy.
54:10
SPEAKER_01: He said, are you familiar with Ebb from Green Acres?
54:13
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, so there's not.
54:16
SPEAKER_01: And so, like...
54:19
SPEAKER_01: In that moment, you know, it wasn't a big sacrifice.
54:23
It really was in that moment in his office,
54:25
I thought,
54:26
I won't be an actor.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be a youth pastor, you know.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: And then lo and behold, that came back around.
54:36
SPEAKER_01: It was actually on Palm Sunday of 2022,
54:41
SPEAKER_01: just a few weeks before family camp came into the theaters,
54:44
SPEAKER_01: that it hit me that God gave me that dream back,
54:46
SPEAKER_01: you know.
54:47
SPEAKER_01: And so I say that to go,
54:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:50
SPEAKER_01: I was about to say my favorite thing about what we did was this,
54:54
SPEAKER_01: but that's probably my favorite thing was that I got to see God
54:58
give back something that I sacrificed to him,
55:01
you know,
55:02
which is really our God is so sweet.
55:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he, um, he overwhelms me with his kindness, you know?
55:12
SPEAKER_01: Um,
55:12
SPEAKER_01: but what,
55:14
another thing that I genuinely have always loved is when you go
55:18
do a live show and
55:19
SPEAKER_01: you look out at this audience and you see,
55:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
55:23
SPEAKER_01: kids from age eight to adults age 80,
55:26
SPEAKER_01: um,
55:27
SPEAKER_01: And they're all laughing.
55:29
SPEAKER_01: And they're just having a good time.
55:32
SPEAKER_01: And you go, I don't know where that exists.
55:36
That you're not either having to compromise some of your morals
55:42
to laugh at
55:43
something that maybe you shouldn't be laughing at or you wish
55:45
your kids didn't see
55:46
SPEAKER_01: it or hear it,
55:47
SPEAKER_01: you know.
55:48
SPEAKER_01: And so I think I took away from that that families need...
55:54
SPEAKER_01: They need time together to be entertained and to laugh.
56:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's really good.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: Especially since just like we...
56:04
SPEAKER_00: There's something resonant,
56:05
SPEAKER_00: and not to get super scientific or nerdy,
56:07
SPEAKER_00: but there's something resonant that happens when a church sings together.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: There's definitely something that happens when a church laughs together.
56:14
SPEAKER_00: You can kind of drill that down into the family level as well.
56:20
SPEAKER_00: Singing together, praying together, laughing together is...
56:23
SPEAKER_00: enormously important,
56:25
SPEAKER_00: not only for the cohesion of that family unit,
56:27
SPEAKER_00: but just the strength and the bond that they share within those moments.
56:31
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really awesome, Tommy.
56:34
SPEAKER_00: What are some ways that,
56:36
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
56:36
SPEAKER_00: Seeky Guys is in a new chapter,
56:38
SPEAKER_00: 231 Collective,
56:39
SPEAKER_00: kind of talk about that new phase and what your hope is,
56:44
what your vision is behind this kind of new chapter of that
56:48
sort of ministry
56:49
SPEAKER_00: endeavor that you've had for a long time.
56:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's really great.
56:54
SPEAKER_01: It was a little over a year ago now.
56:57
SPEAKER_01: We had a little retreat for those of us who run the ministry.
57:05
SPEAKER_01: And as we were sitting and talking,
57:07
SPEAKER_01: I just felt really,
57:10
SPEAKER_01: and I don't feel that kind of stuff this often,
57:13
SPEAKER_01: but I just felt impressed to go
57:17
what we had done for 30 years was we made things and then we
57:24
asked God to bless it.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: And in the process, like,
57:28
SPEAKER_01: God did some beautiful things.
57:29
SPEAKER_01: So don't hear that as me dogging anything.
57:32
SPEAKER_01: That was just our mode.
57:33
SPEAKER_01: Our mode was, what do we want to make next?
57:36
SPEAKER_01: And God, will you bless it?
57:39
SPEAKER_01: And then we kind of became a slave to what does the church want?
57:47
And so,
57:48
you know,
57:48
if you look at our early material,
57:50
it covers all sorts of things.
57:52
SPEAKER_01: If you look at our last book,
57:56
SPEAKER_01: 10 years, you're going to see mostly holiday videos.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: And that's because that's what the church wanted.
58:02
SPEAKER_01: They wanted holiday videos.
58:03
SPEAKER_01: And so we, in essence, we were chasing money.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we were trying to, and I don't mean to get rich.
58:12
SPEAKER_01: I meant just to stay afloat.
58:13
And so we just kept making holiday videos because that's what
58:17
the church would buy.
58:19
SPEAKER_01: And so in this meeting, I just said, you know,
58:23
SPEAKER_01: why have we never asked people to join us in this ministry?
58:27
SPEAKER_01: Like,
58:27
SPEAKER_01: if we think this is what God wants us to do,
58:29
SPEAKER_01: we're a nonprofit organization,
58:31
SPEAKER_01: we always have been,
58:32
SPEAKER_01: why have we not asked people to join us?
58:34
SPEAKER_01: And then I got really convicted and just said,
58:38
what could we have done over the past 30 years if we would have
58:43
asked people to
58:44
SPEAKER_01: join us,
58:45
as opposed to us just doing everything and then having the
58:49
church buy things?
58:52
SPEAKER_01: And
58:53
Through a series of different events,
58:57
that kind of got pushed to the forefront.
58:59
SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden, we're a new ministry.
59:04
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't about two guys.
59:07
SPEAKER_01: It was about something much bigger.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: And so we spent some time praying and looking and thinking.
59:13
SPEAKER_01: And we came up with this idea...
59:15
SPEAKER_01: And it was all built around a guy named Bezalel,
59:19
SPEAKER_01: who you see in Exodus chapter 31,
59:21
SPEAKER_01: thus the 231,
59:23
SPEAKER_01: right?
59:23
SPEAKER_01: Two, second book in the Bible, chapter 31.
59:26
SPEAKER_01: Bezalel Ministries sounds weird.
59:29
SPEAKER_00: That's a really rad name, Tommy.
59:32
SPEAKER_00: Right?
59:32
SPEAKER_01: I know, I know.
59:34
SPEAKER_01: So we were like,
59:35
SPEAKER_01: we went with 231,
59:37
SPEAKER_01: and then we said we want it to be a collective,
59:39
SPEAKER_01: meaning we don't want to do it all.
59:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, we want to be the hub that opens up for...
59:46
SPEAKER_01: every kind of art that you can think of that glorifies God.
59:51
SPEAKER_01: And it's a donation-based ministry.
59:57
Like,
59:57
I just fully believe God gives some people the ability to make
1:00:01
money.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: He gives some people the ability to be funny.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: He gives some people the ability to make art.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: Like, fill in the blank, everybody has their giftedness.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_01: And I think what we see...
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: in the scriptures is that we're supposed to work as a body,
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: and you have local bodies,
1:00:16
SPEAKER_01: which I'm a part of and believe in.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: And then you have the body of Christ, you know?
1:00:21
And so I think we're all supposed to use our gifts and talents
1:00:24
to advance the kingdom.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: And so that's the idea behind it.
1:00:29
And then the drive behind it is that we want to create not just
1:00:36
what the church wants,
1:00:37
but
1:00:37
SPEAKER_01: but what the church needs.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: And those aren't always the same thing.
1:00:42
And so we're sitting on some ideas right now of things that you
1:00:48
go,
1:00:49
does the church want this?
1:00:51
SPEAKER_01: And I'd be like, most of the church does not want this.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_01: Does the church need this?
1:00:57
SPEAKER_01: Most of the church needs this.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_01: But if the church doesn't want it, the church won't buy it.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_01: And so you have to have people
1:01:06
SPEAKER_01: that believe in your mission to go, I'm going to help you do that.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_01: Because I agree with you.
1:01:14
I think the church needs to hear some things that it's not
1:01:17
hearing right now.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_01: And so that's really that.
1:01:23
But we also are sitting on things that I think the church is
1:01:26
going to adore.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're sitting on about four new children's programs.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_01: We're looking at three different reality TV shows.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_01: We're looking at an episodic show.
1:01:40
And then we've got a feature-length movie that is just waiting
1:01:46
for someone to pay
1:01:48
SPEAKER_01: for it to be made that is so good.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: It's so good.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited about it.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_00: I love that, Tommy.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_00: I love the new vision,
1:02:00
and I love the future that at least it feels as though the Lord
1:02:06
is definitely
1:02:06
SPEAKER_00: leading in that space.
1:02:09
In light of that,
1:02:10
if there's anything that you want to promote or plug,
1:02:15
feel free to do so.
1:02:15
Also,
1:02:16
where can people,
1:02:16
if they want to connect with you in 231,
1:02:18
where should they do that?
1:02:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for asking.
1:02:23
They can go to 231collective.com,
1:02:26
and there's a short video there explaining things.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_01: What used to be skitguys.com is 231 worship,
1:02:34
SPEAKER_01: and so everything,
1:02:35
SPEAKER_01: almost everything that we created is still there.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_01: It's still available.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_01: Churches are still using it.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: We're still making videos to equip the church, the videos that they need.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, that new...
1:02:48
um flannel graph easter you know just came out and super
1:02:52
excited about that we had
1:02:54
a christmas series this year and i'm so proud of it like it it
1:02:59
was an animated
1:03:00
series and i think it's one of the best things we've ever done
1:03:03
you know and so it's
1:03:05
just it's this has opened up a venue for us to do things we've
1:03:09
never been able to
1:03:10
SPEAKER_01: do before and um
1:03:12
There's a lot of artists who've reached out that have said,
1:03:17
hey,
1:03:17
I want to be a part of this.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_01: We just have to be able to get to the place where,
1:03:23
SPEAKER_01: at the end of the day,
1:03:23
SPEAKER_01: we can pay our bills and take care of everybody.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_01: And that's the ultimate challenge of every ministry.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_01: And that's never, ever at the expense of the local church.
1:03:34
SPEAKER_01: You need to take care of your local church,
1:03:36
SPEAKER_01: and then you take care of what other ministries may be out there.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, Tommy, thank you so much for today.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: It's been good talking.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_00: It's been good laughing with you.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_00: And hopefully the church learns to find a sense of humor in life.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_01: You too, Brad.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_01: This has been wonderful.
1:03:52
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
1:03:54
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Ministry
1:03:56
Minded Podcast.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_00: Of course,
1:03:58
if you want to get connected to Tommy Woodard and all his new
1:04:00
ministry endeavors,
1:04:01
SPEAKER_00: make sure you hit all the links in the show notes.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: I'll share a bunch of stuff down there.
1:04:05
But thank you so much for listening to this episode of the
1:04:07
Ministry Minded Podcast.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_00: If you're not yet subscribed, make sure you do that.
1:04:12
You can subscribe via Apple Podcasts or Spotify or right here
1:04:16
on Substack.com.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_00: Those really, really help.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_00: And I'm very thankful for that.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_00: Thankful for all those who are subscribed to it.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for your notes and your comments whenever you listen.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_00: And just thank you so much for following along.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_00: And hopefully you've been blessed by this one.
1:04:32
Stay tuned for many more like this episode in the weeks and
1:04:35
months to come.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_00: But until then, blessings.