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Paging Dr. Ramani, Scapegoat Child Here · Nurtural Disasters

• Ken: On this episode, there are references to self-harm, euthanasia, and alleged assault. Listener discretion is advised. Well, now that I've brightened up everybody's day, let's get on with this podcast. Welcome to Nurtural Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Lisa: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. ⁓ ⁓ The dynamic with you and your sister. So does your dad see you as a child? Ken: It's always very interesting to me, especially, you know, we talked about Dr. Ramani and like the stuff of like people in the of narcissists and what's your role to play in this. I really don't know other than the fact that my dad's a narcissist and my sisters kind of have like she has signs that she's she's a narcissist too. Like she's maybe like a covert or victim narcissist kind of that she plays off of that. So it's very hard for me to say. ⁓ If someone, maybe we will have Dr. Romany on the show and maybe she could tell me that. I'll give her all the details. We'll give her all the details. If like, that is our dream. We keep wanting her to come on the show. So we want the show to just have a following. So she'll be like, yeah, I'll do your show. We'll gladly do your show. That'll be great. ⁓ Yeah. Me you, Lisa, Lisa: ⁓ my God, that's my dream. That is my God. I would cry if I ever met her. Ken: We love her. A lot of people do. ⁓ why she gets such a following, right? It's stuff that people never even thought about until this became like a topic of discussion. ⁓ Lisa: She's a very wise person because she went through it. Yeah. Ken: Yes. Uber-wise, like it's just you're getting nuggets of information every day. ⁓ Lisa: It's wisdom that is like, Ken: It's like stuff that you never think of and it's like, that does make sense. And you're like thinking about it. It's like, it could be this. ⁓ you just, she gives you kind of like ⁓ descriptions of things that happen and gives definitions to things that didn't have definitions before. So it's very helpful. ⁓ Lisa: Yeah, should see me in the morning when I'm having my coffee and I'm listening and I'm watching one of her new videos. She up so she uploads a new video every morning. And I'm literally going, yes, exactly. Like right in mind to my laptop, like. ⁓ Ken: It's like your daily affirmations with Dr. Romany. Lisa: I was like, ⁓ my god, yes, exactly. Every single time. That's just me. ⁓ that was ⁓ WhatsApp. I got a WhatsApp message. Yeah, ⁓ have it on my laptop. ⁓ basically of my family uses WhatsApp. Basically anyone outside of the States, they all have WhatsApp. So I messages from family, friends outside the country mostly. So that's the dinging that you hear. ⁓ Ken: What was that sound? What's the? What's aaaap? Mm-hmm. I used to use line and then I can't find anybody that uses line anymore ever since I moved back to the States. Lisa: line. Viber was a thing back in the day. WhatsApp basically overtook everything and Facebook bought it out, Ken: Yeah, yeah. I have no idea. All these companies are bought out by a big conglomerate. Lisa: Yeah, they all just buy each other out. Yeah, we're right. Ken: What were we talking about again? Lisa: ⁓ Dr. Romney, the queen of psychology. No, before that it was, that's right, the family dynamics. Ken: and yeah, it's like, am I the scapegoat? Who knows. ⁓ am I the scapegoat? I have no idea. My dad does seem to pit me and my sister together against each other, so it's like, hmm. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: And the thing is, sometimes he's not even aware that he's doing it. He'll say something stupid like, it'll be like a little like, oh yeah, the drain is clogged. Oh, we'll just call your brother over, he knows how to unclog it. Lisa: Mmm. Ken: And this is while my sister is clogging the sink. obvious intent right there, right? ⁓ look, your daughter's doing it. Okay, she looks like she knows what she's doing. Hey, call the son to come over. Let him fix this. Why would do that? Why would someone even ⁓ entertain that knowing that your daughter is doing it right now, knowing that your daughter and your son are not having the best of relationships, and you throw that out there? Lisa: Yes. ⁓ Mm. ⁓ my god, it's such a way to control by you guys against each other. what narcissists do. They actually do their own children each other. ⁓ And I was this video the other day and it was ⁓ one of those coaches who said, two or more siblings, they get along, I can almost guarantee you there's a narcissistic parent behind the scenes. playing favorites, talking smack, triangulating, telling this one kid, da-da-da-da, and this other one, so-and-so said this about you, and da-da-da-da, and then create this kind of animosity so they maintain control. And the fact that, and you know, ⁓ it got me thinking you know, you and your don't get along. me and my sibling do not get along. And I can see that because, you know, my brother was a golden child. I was a scapegoat. I say, ⁓ it made so much sense. It clicked. And I was like, but I was trying to think of other people who are not close to their own siblings. And I thought, hmm, parents ⁓ toxic traits. I'm not even saying like narcissistic personality disorder. I'm talking about just some of toxicity and At least one of the parents, not both of them, but at least one did have some toxicity where they favored one child They created this dynamic themselves. Ken: So pretty much in my mind, am I the scapegoat? I do not know. There was a point where my sister was the only child and that's probably when she was a golden child. My parents treated her like she was pretty much like princess of the family Then I was born, then my sister had to take care of me, they had to parentify her, a lot of stuff she wanted to do as a teenager she didn't get to do because my dad's like babysit your brother. Even so, like into our adult lives, like we had a good relationship. We had a relatively good relationship. We always hung out together I considered her a friend. So I think she considered me a friend too, as much as a brother. It's only been the last couple years where this has taken a turn for the worse and then my dad's really kind of like leveraging this relationship, right? Like, so your two kids are no longer the best of friends. Let's use this kid to mess with that kid or use this kid to mess with that kid. That's why I feel like my dad's doing. Even if he's not consciously doing it, this is exactly what I think he's doing. Lisa: Hmm. I mean, that's his only way to maintain control over you because the fact that she runs away or, you know, actually both of you, you both threatened to leave in one way or another. Hers is to run away and yours is to, ⁓ I might just move out of the state. You know, it's too expensive to live in California, but you know that riles him up. both of you, that's your of kind of saying. taking back your control because his way of controlling you guys is by pitting you against each other. Ken: there came a certain point where ⁓ knew that I wasn't what he wanted as an ideal son. He looked at it, he's probably like, well, looks like he's a lost cause, right? I think he had free- he was like, this guy has free thought, he doesn't listen to me fully. ⁓ then must go to another plan, since I'm not the golden child, or at least at that point anymore, I'm not listening to him anymore. Time to- ⁓ Focus his energy on something else. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: Unfortunately my sister doesn't comply with that, so it's... At this point it's just Now he's like, he just has two kids that are like, oh well, can't manipulate myself, so let's manipulate them to battle against each other, I don't know. Lisa: I could see that more because in childhood kids are way easier to manipulate. But once they're adults, they're autonomous adults, ⁓ how do you manipulate? it's through money. I've noticed that. feel like they're just almost like they're drowning in a sea and they're just trying to grab onto whatever they can to stay afloat. Ken: Yeah, I think that's actually a good analogy. The only other analogy I can think of is like, they're literally throwing things at the wall, seeing what sticks. I don't think there's like a rhyme or reason. They're just, you know what? I think this is the good thing at the moment. I'm going to try this. Which is like, that kind of thought process is like, wow, you think it's like self preservation for a narcissist, right? And essentially it kind of is. The whole ⁓ house collapses on itself this doesn't get resolved within their mind. Lisa: Hmm. Ken: Like the house of cards, it's just a house of cards. ⁓ everything's trying to keep afloat, trying to not drown. Lisa: Are you going to be one of those kids who sends their parent off to one of those folks homes? ⁓ Ken: ⁓ god. talked about this with my family. I feel like my mom ⁓ should get care and I don't want to send her off but there's gonna come a certain time where it's not gonna be safe for her to be in that house. I don't want to be the guy sends his mom to a home but that's been on my mind ⁓ and I'm honestly I'm not gonna send dad to a home. he's so with that house like being in control of everything Sending him in a home will pretty much like be declaring nuclear war Lisa: Wow, your mom do that, what they call sundowning? ⁓ like really angry and just ⁓ these fits, right? Ken: Well, she used to these... It really like a fit. That's why it's like when people say they're sundowning and because my mom just kind of went nonverbal so quickly. It's almost like whenever I hear about Bruce Willis and his aphasia, ⁓ like reminds me of that she nonverbal. So she didn't go into tantrums like that. There have been certain times where you could tell she's frustrated, but she can't verbalize it. Lisa: Wow. You know that's so fucking scary. I think it's scary for people who do have dementia or Alzheimer's. Where it's like, I knew somebody who, actually my mom's now deceased husband, husband number three, he ended up having some sort of, I don't know if it was dementia or Alzheimer's, honestly. But the reason they found out was because he was driving. Ken: It is very scary, and it's... Lisa: And he called her up and said, I don't know where I am. And he was literally down the hill from the house where they lived. They lived up in the hill. he's ⁓ ⁓ house that he's lived in for like, what, decades? He could not remember where he was ⁓ how to get back. ⁓ he's freaking ⁓ and crying and calling her. that was kind of the beginning of the end, honestly. That's just, I could just imagine this, how scary it is not to know. something that you've known your entire life. my god, I can't even imagine. And that happened to my grandmother after... ⁓ My mom, so my maternal grandmother, she had a stroke and basically forgot a lot of the long-term memory. She still had her short-term memory, but the long-term memory she couldn't... She didn't remember me when I came back to visit in Mexico. She didn't remember people, she... And I could tell she had this blank stare. But at the same time, it was blank, but at the same time it was like, I know you from somewhere, you know? It's like when you see a celebrity walking down the street in LA and you go, wait, did we go to college together or were you on Emily in Paris? Like that level of like, that look of like, wait, I know you from somewhere. And she would look at me, there's that helplessness that. feeling of, my god, I can't even imagine. If I'm at that point, you know, I've heard, I've read about assisted suicide and I'm like, hmm, maybe that could be a thing. I mean, cause your quality of life at that point, that's, relying everybody else. It's so, ⁓ fuck that. Ken: That is true. So it's interesting you did say that because when I was in the ER with my mom, the ER doctor actually, she was very nice. Like she was very sympathetic because dad ⁓ away from Alzheimer's recently. So he knows how hard it is to be around a parent that's kind of like losing their faculties. ⁓ brought up something that was very important and that was ⁓ much, there's gonna come a point where your mom, is likely gonna lose consciousness, pretty much implies that she might turn into like a vegetable. So do you guys have a plan? And honestly, unfortunately, when I talk to my family, like my dad and my sister, this is stuff that they don't wanna talk about, right? it's uncomfortable. It's not fun. It's very depressing. They don't wanna talk about it. They'll like brush it off and stuff like that. So I can't have a serious conversation with them about it. ⁓ So that really with a lot of things. And I've seen this as see something as serious and want to avoid it. ⁓ that awkward conversation. And this has happened with my dad when I asked him about end of life preparations and stuff like that. ⁓ having like a living will, living trust, ⁓ like a will and stuff like that. He refuses to get it done. Lisa: He won't draw up a but will. interesting. ⁓ Ken: It's understandable in the fact that if you start doing something like that and preparing, ⁓ acknowledging that you're gonna die. And I know exactly how scary that could be for ⁓ But thing is, ⁓ he the man that keeps saying, A, I to keep money and stuff. ⁓ Lisa: Absolutely. Ken: So I could leave it for you and your sister when I go. And he keeps telling us that, but he makes no preparations to do that. So you could see like how I'm skeptical that he's still using the money in the future as a, as like a leverage, right? But he's doing nothing to actually the end of life things where it'll be like a transfer of like property, right? So he doesn't want to do that. And it's really hard to talk to someone like that because if I talk to him about that, it'll be uncomfortable and the conversation will just end. So, and this, is the same thing with how am I going to bring up when mom is unconscious and she's in a hospital bed? what are we going to do? Lisa: You know what? That's very valid because when my grandmother passed away that would be like two years ago paternal grandmother not maternal ⁓ She did not specify certain things in her will she did for the most part her credit She did it for almost everything except her house. We have to go through probate court, which is not fun So if they don't specify certain things probate court It's their job to basically say what, what to whom, right? Yeah. Ken: Exactly. It's gonna get tied up in the courts. Lisa: Yes, and I just hope that's not the case with you because my dad was like, my god. It really took a lot, big huge toll on him because the way the will was done, he thought there was some manipulation from other people with my grandmother's estate. My grandmother a, I wouldn't say she had a lot of money, but she, ⁓ had stuff, ⁓ know, that generation. ⁓ like into the, what's it called, that generation from the 30s. What's the name of that generation? Ken: I don't know the forgotten generation, I don't know. Is it the forgotten generation? I don't even know. Lisa: They went through the Great Depression. Ken: ⁓ yeah. Battle Hardin'. Lisa: blanking on the name, but the type where they put money under the mattress because they trust banks. ⁓ Like that ⁓ of trauma, financial trauma, understandably, And was that type. you can imagine when ⁓ someone like that passes on assign ⁓ who gets what in a will. It creates... just... It wasn't, you know what? To fair, it wasn't a huge mess, but there were some ⁓ complications. And people think there was some manipulation on top that because my grandmother had a stroke right before she had passed. Like, ⁓ she had in April and she had a stroke in December. And you know you have a stroke, your personality can change? ⁓ Ken: A mess. Yes. Lisa: She went after my dad. she just went after him. Like he was an enemy. Like she literally chased him out of the house and she changed the locks on the doors and like that, it was just weird. But ⁓ he thought was, ⁓ he didn't if it was a stroke or it was people around her manipulating or influencing to change her will. So cause she changed her will like. two or three weeks before she passed. Ken: How was your relationship beforehand, before the stroke? Lisa: ⁓ my mind and my grandmother's or my dad's and my grandmother's? Ken: You're your dad and your grandmother. Lisa: Okay, boy. So, not good. They've never gotten along. She was mostly a single mother. I my dad's father passed away when he was around eight or nine years old, like from a heart attack. ⁓ Not good to my grandmother. Let's just say he mistreated her. heard stories, weird because I never have heard these stories when I was young, ⁓ you know, of abuse. It was not age appropriate, but anyway. She did not like my father. I think because back in those days, autism was not ⁓ known. There wasn't whole lot of knowledge about it. So she found him very problematic. So there was this constant conflict. had a younger brother. I heard he had a learning disability, but I don't know ⁓ to the extent of it. dad won't tell me. ⁓ but he was very good looking, his younger brother. Like he passed away when he was in the mid 80s and when he died, a lot of like his girlfriends would just come up and they're like, ⁓ my God, I can't believe it. was him. like that But he never got along with this. He told me that he and his mom never really got along. She kicked him out of the house when he was a teenager because he was growing pot or something. And my grandmother was pretty conservative. She was Republican. So he was out on his own ⁓ as 18-year-old maybe. ⁓ And it pretty strained until... ⁓ He got married and he had grandchildren. So me and my brother. And he said, after that, she changed. Like, she loved me. She loved my brother, but she especially loved me. And... That's when they were able to kind of mend their relationship a bit and be great, but they were able to get along. I think that the for them to change. ⁓ And I guess that happens. I'm sure Ken, you've heard it happen where people say, my parents were shitty to me. But ⁓ to my kids, my parents, you grandparents, they treat them like, you know, they treat my kids so great. They're so great with my kids. Even though treated me like shit. they just love my kids and they're so good to them. Ken: I have heard of situations like that. Unfortunately for me, I had a grandpa that hated kids. He hated his kids, he hated his grandkids. it's like, man, I got stuck with this guy. but have heard that that does, like seems to a generation, which is kind of sad. Lisa: It's so weird, isn't it? But the thing is, with my maternal grandmother from my mom's side, she did not like me. now it's because she internalized a lot of the sexism. know, Mexico and Latin America, unfortunately, they have the machismo culture. They internalized so much of the sexism and the patriarchy that they favor the boys over girls. So that's why she favored my brother. over me and like to the fact that my brother could sleep as late as he want even though he was younger than me I had to go to bed early because I was a female but my brother who was younger than me he could sleep as late as you want because he was a boy that type of thing or favoritism. And then my brother, has eyes and I have dark eyes. So it's like, ⁓ my little grandson with the light eyes and would just dote it on him. And with me, she was so hypercritical of me and I didn't really, it wasn't until a few years ago when I was thinking about it, I'm like, she was so critical of me. didn't deserve that. But it made me realize, ⁓ that's why my mom is the way she is, because it's intergenerational. Ken: you Lisa: My grandmother, she played favorites. She did I think she intentionally pitted her children against each other, but the that the boys don't have to do any chores and the girls were forced to do, not only they were forced to do chores, they had to take care of their younger siblings. Imagine being a small child and having to change diapers and give formula and make sure they went to school and that level of parentification. that changes you. ⁓ that it totally makes it doesn't excuse it, but it explains it. it makes me realize, that's why my mom is way she is. It was just that trauma that she had, but she just didn't have the tools to like break generational cycles, And I'm sure that's the same way with you, parents, have a long line of trauma as well. Ken: Well, yeah, it's pretty much, it's, I won't say it's like a machismo culture with like Asian people, but there is a belief that the son is favored more than the daughter. And this is something that my sister held to heart. Like she ⁓ wants this narrative to be a thing. ⁓ I think my parents are a little bit more modern, but that still doesn't stop her from thinking that way. It doesn't help that me being boy, I got to stay out a little later, I got to do a little bit more stuff, extracurricular stuff. I got to go to the school that was a little bit farther from home, but ⁓ lot of it was, I was like a girl and I grew up during that time, it's because my parents had a little bit more money, they had a little bit more options for me. ⁓ I think that it would have been the same for me. Lisa: if you want to just wrap up what you were saying about the differences between your sister and you, ⁓ how you were treated because of, you know, I know the in the Asian cultures, it's pretty patriarchal. Ken: it's very patriarchal, ⁓ but I think my parents grew up, like both sides, they kind of grew up when, ⁓ ⁓ kind of like things were changing a little bit more, ⁓ were modernizing. And both my parents were probably like middle-class people, so it was probably a little bit more equal. I didn't really see the women being ⁓ more mistreated than men. The men were definitely favored. my sister has this ⁓ into her head that my parents ⁓ me more to her. And it really discounts ⁓ fact that when she was a single, ⁓ only child, my parents ⁓ her like she was the center of their world. So it's somewhat like she forgot about that as soon as I showed up. I remember my parents telling me that you're here because ⁓ We didn't want your sister to be lonely. And this is what they told me when I was growing up. So I was like, well, she had to take care of me, but I'm pretty much her like little toy, right? Her little companion. I'm pretty sure for my parents, it's a little self-serving too. There is something to be said that they had a daughter and they wanted a son to probably show my grandfather, right? Or you're standing in the family. sure that was part of it, but it was pretty equal between me and my sister. So when she stuff like that, just discounts all the good stuff she got. I'm always jealous ⁓ of my sister having ⁓ all my parents' they didn't have much money. Instead of giving her gifts, they gave her time. Like I see a lot of pictures of them at the park, at the beach, at the promenade. They took a lot of little trips together. I don't have those pictures. I think when my dad me, my mom and my dad started working a lot. So it's like, I barely saw them. So in order to kind of ⁓ make it so. ⁓ I wasn't like neglected. They just got me like toys and stuff. And really, ⁓ my opinion, I always tell people this. I think that a kid would prefer memories other than something physical like a toy. ⁓ Memories so important for a kid. ⁓ And what I'm jealous about. My sister, oppositely, conversely, thinks that having stuff because she grew up really poor having stuff then it meant I was a spoiled one in my mind I wanted my parents' time I don't want the toy toys are just toys like you play over a little bit and then you forget about it as a kid I wanted my parents' time so it's interesting because she's jealous that I got all the stuff I'm jealous that she got all their story right? it's like a Fairytale at that point. It's like one one kid wants the parents time one kid wants all the stuff the physical stuff all the tangible stuff I want I Want the memories I see it they're at the fair there have a bunch of pictures and then when I'm At those events. I'm not even with my parents. I'm with my cousins at Disneyland. My parents are nowhere to be found Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ken: So whenever she says that, I almost always want to tell you had their time, that was more important than anything. Mom and dad had no time when they had me. They pretty much had my aunt raise me, My aunt raised me until I was ready for kindergarten. So whenever sister brings that up, it makes me really mad inside. It's like I angered at, you really don't. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: appreciate what you had with mom and dad. Lisa: Hmm. Ken: And if one day I could let it out maybe if she ever gets a sound mind I could let it out that would be great. That would be like one part of my life that I could just be like you know what this is what I really want to tell you it doesn't matter what kind of toys or video games I got I just wanted mom and dad to hang out with me. Why? Because see it in pictures that you get I'll hang out with them and it seems really neat and I don't have any of those memories. Lisa: your tell you, just write her a letter ⁓ and let it out, but don't mail her the letter. You know, burn it, throw it away, whatever. You haven't got that yet. Ken: Haven't got that yet. just write it, I'll give it to her and then she opens it up and it's just like she ⁓ reads it, it's it's just giant picture of a middle finger. ⁓ I won't do that, won't do that. I'll do that to my dad. I feel like my sister got... She's like this because of my parents. Lisa: You know the middle finger thing? like birthday cards or any kind of like greeting cards. You open them up and it's a giant middle finger. It'll pop up. Ken: Mm-hmm. Did you want one of those for your next birthday, Lisa? Is that a hint? Lisa: for my, are you going to give it to me? You're going to send me? Ken: I need to find it first. Lisa: You're gonna send it to me for my birthday? You wanna like, fuck you Lisa. Ken: It seems like that's what you're looking for. It's like, haha, this person cares for me. Big middle finger. Lisa: Yeah, you just, you're telling me to go fuck myself. Ken: ⁓ god. That's not what I meant. Lisa: Okay, well, I think that's the end of this episode. Ken: Yes it is the end of this episode. Lisa: All right, well, make sure you stay tuned for the next one. And I do want to say, I want to give a huge thanks to Megan Morrow for letting us use her song Clouded for our theme song. Ken: it great to have ⁓ Lisa: Yeah, she's it's been so nice of her to let her use clouded for our theme song. That's very generous of her. So we really appreciate that. Ken: one day she could join us on the show. Lisa: I don't know. I imagine it turns out that she comes from a really good family and her parents are like super healthy. Ken: Well, isn't that a punch in the face? Lisa: be like, hey imagine if she comes on the show and she's like, ⁓ I can't relate at all ⁓ I can't relate. It would be like the entire time like ⁓ I can't relate. No, my parents love me ⁓ no, I can't relate. I Know my mom would never falsely accuse someone of falsely their own child. Why would ⁓ Wait, would someone do that? No, that's they pitted you against your own child. What the fuck ⁓ that's Ken: Lisa goodness Lisa: That's evil. Wait, what? No, people like that don't exist. What? No. Ken: At we're devolving into the last episode we had where we'd go berserk and say everything on our chest. Lisa: I don't know. Ken: I don't know. Lisa: I don't know. I don't know. I have been tequila. So yeah. ⁓ Ken: Have you? I was just talking to my friend Brian, I'm like, I haven't had like decent alcohol in a while. And he's like, hey, want some whiskey? I'm like, yeah, but I didn't have to fly through Maryland to get it. malt I'm like, I haven't had that in a while. I haven't been drinking since COVID happened. My stomach's completely repaired from. The roaring 20s. The roaring 20s being that, hey, I went out to drink every night. Now I'm paying for it. Lisa: Okay, well thank you for that Ken. With that, we will thank you so much for listening and we'll catch you up next time. Ken: We'll catch you next episode! We're having way too much fun, so please come back soon! Lisa: Thank you so much. Alright, bye guys.