Latest / Ridiculous History / Victorians Got Super Weird With Flirting, Part One: "Fan Fiction"

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Victorians Got Super Weird With Flirting, Part One: "Fan Fiction" · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
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Speaker 1: for tuning in. Now I'm gonna slide into the d
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Speaker 1: MS here of our show. Uh and and hit up
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Speaker 1: our super producer, mister Max Williams with a slow blink.
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Speaker 2: Max tap bill fan, Max Tap tap the fan. Just
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Speaker 2: so pull that glove off slowly, one finger at a time, Yeah, inductively.
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Speaker 1: I want you to really feel that one right.
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Speaker 3: Uh.
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Speaker 1: My name is Ben Bullen. Who are those dulcet tones?
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Speaker 1: Why that's mister Noel Brown, who's been sliding into my
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Speaker 1: dms for a number of years now.
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Speaker 2: It's so so erotic when you say it like that.
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Speaker 1: We mostly guys. We mostly text each other. Gosh, it's
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Speaker 1: weird how often we talk even when we're not working.
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Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous Historians, Noel and I have been flirting with
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Speaker 1: each other in a very supportive way.
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Speaker 2: For lo these many you was gonna say, lo these men, wow,
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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, they were off to such a bang.
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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, your mind reader. We should hang out.
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Speaker 2: We did.
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Speaker 4: To jump in here with a little funny count. I
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Speaker 4: just did we have sent twenty seven direct messages to
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Speaker 4: each other via our communication software this morning alone.
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Speaker 2: It is not noon yet. Yeah, I'm cool with that.
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Speaker 4: I love everyone.
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Speaker 2: They're consensual, by the way, no one's like blowing any Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're we're actually Usually when Max and NOL
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Speaker 1: and I text each other guys, or talk to each
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Speaker 1: other when we're not on the air, it's weirdly supportive
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Speaker 1: stuff or a very niche thing that we want.
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Speaker 2: Each other to see. Yeah, it's quite a romance. For example,
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Speaker 2: just the other day or this morning, in fact, I
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Speaker 2: texted you both birds do it? Bees? Do it? Even educated?
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Speaker 2: Flease do it, guys, let's do it, let's fall in love. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I I super liked that. I believe on
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Speaker 1: that social platform.
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Speaker 2: You even do that. Oh, Vix, I didn't know you
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Speaker 2: could super like via text.
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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Remember when I figured out that was that?
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Speaker 1: Remember when I figured out it was on text with you, Nol.
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Speaker 1: I figured out that the newest iPhone update let you make.
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Speaker 2: A bicker, yeah, or like makes them vibrates with ecstasy.
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Speaker 2: That's I'm sorry, guys, it's a horny episode today.
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Speaker 1: This poor guy, this my Nol, this poor guy had
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Speaker 1: to witness me in real time on text figure out
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Speaker 1: from how you can make the words in biggin and
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Speaker 1: vibrate ooh to mess it.
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Speaker 2: Well, I have a little condition called fat finger syndrome,
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Speaker 2: so I'm constantly making words vibrate and dance around and
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Speaker 2: explode into confetti and all of that. But Ben, Yeah,
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Speaker 2: back to the that titillating text that I sent you, guys,
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Speaker 2: I really did do that. I didn't actually are our
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Speaker 2: incredible research associate Ren Fair put that Renfair, renfests, you
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Speaker 2: know Potato Patato put those lyrics at the top of
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Speaker 2: this incredible research brief that she wrote for us, which
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Speaker 2: are from the Broadway composer and songwriter Cole Porter in
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Speaker 2: his nineteen twenty eight musical Paris. I honestly didn't know
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Speaker 2: that I knew the line. I've heard it repeated in
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Speaker 2: cartoons and probably heard various covers of it, but no,
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Speaker 2: I've never even heard of.
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Speaker 1: Paris Ella Fitzgerald cover.
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Speaker 2: That's the one I know the best. Beautiful. Uh.
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Speaker 1: And as as Renfest points out, falling in love is
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Speaker 1: always nice, it takes a little work of fraud to
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Speaker 1: get the sparks flight. I'm I'm quoting you there, red.
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Speaker 2: H And do you remember a latter Day Aerosmith song
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Speaker 2: was called falling in Love is So Hard on the knees? Yes? Yes,
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Speaker 2: What does that even mean? I guess it means you're
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Speaker 2: always begging? Or is it some sort of innuendo? Is
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Speaker 2: he's saying falling in love is hard? Is difficult? Going
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Speaker 2: to be great?
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Speaker 1: I think it means Steven Tyler is bad at lyrics?
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Speaker 2: Okay, that's fair. Yeah, maybe he has slumped a little bit.
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Speaker 1: He had a country music album that came out as
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Speaker 1: a single called Her Name Is Love.
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Speaker 2: But come on, dude, dude looks like a lady not
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Speaker 2: well at all in an elevator? Is there going in
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Speaker 2: an elevator? They're falling in love in an elevator.
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Speaker 1: So with this in mind, we know that the course
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Speaker 1: of true love never did run smooth, right to quote
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Speaker 1: our buddy Willie Shakes. So we are a no judgment show.
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Speaker 1: You know, we usually back each other up, and we
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Speaker 1: usually back up everybody who tunes in with us.
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Speaker 2: That's the thing though, and I think it's a great
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Speaker 2: entry point into today's story because a lot of it
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Speaker 2: is about the decorum of flirting and the way people
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Speaker 2: would often flout said decorum. You know, yeah, yeahkly doing
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Speaker 2: their best.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and with help from our research associate Red and Fest,
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Speaker 1: we are exploring the idea of flirtation. Noel Max did
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Speaker 1: ether If you, guys, ever have a moment where you
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Speaker 1: got flirted upon and realized it after the fact.
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Speaker 4: Oh God, too many in my life. I am a
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Speaker 4: I am sometimes painfully unaware. I have it with my
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Speaker 4: uh advanced age. Now I'm kind of happy about that.
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Speaker 4: I find I'm a little happier when I'm blissfully unaware
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Speaker 4: of about stuff but in love it. You realize after
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Speaker 4: the fact, like three months later, Oh, that person who
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Speaker 4: I who I find attractive used to hit on me
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Speaker 4: pretty aggressively, and now they don't because I didn't pick
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Speaker 4: up on the fact that they were hitting on me.
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Speaker 1: You'll get that great dermatologist.
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Speaker 4: One day, guys, Yeah, the Greek dermatologist.
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Speaker 2: I think I'm so blissfully unaware of it that I
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Speaker 2: could probably even to this day, argue that No, that
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Speaker 2: has never happened. All right.
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Speaker 1: For any fans of quantum leap, please realize that my
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Speaker 1: pal Nola and I often hang out. It is situation
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Speaker 1: where I'm kind of like your your sidekick in your
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Speaker 1: Scott Baculus spot, you know, and yeah, yeah, helping.
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Speaker 2: Me out here. What's the word, siran knowing me kind of? Yes?
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Speaker 1: Oh, well done. Uh So today we are talking about
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Speaker 1: flirting in the Victorian era, specifically.
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Speaker 2: Ben, I did think you were gonna, you know, throw
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Speaker 2: me a bone there and say, and as your wingman,
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Speaker 2: I can, with one percent accuracy certainty say that you
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Speaker 2: have definitely been low key flirted with, but you didn't
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Speaker 2: go there. And I respect to check man, and I've
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Speaker 2: got a check with Ziggy. What Ziggy could check with
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Speaker 2: is psychology today for a pretty solid definition of the
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Speaker 2: concept of flirting. They describe it as nature's solution to
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Speaker 2: the problem every creature faces in a world full of
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Speaker 2: potential mates, how to choose the right one. We all
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Speaker 2: need a partner who is not merely fertile but genetically different,
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Speaker 2: as well as healthy enough to a viable offspring, provide
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Speaker 2: some kind of help in the hard job of parenting,
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Speaker 2: and offer some social compatibility.
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Speaker 1: This sounds like a farrange.
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Speaker 2: Honestly, the walks of psychology today know how to turn
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Speaker 2: a phrase.
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Speaker 3: So so yes, the walks, so psychology walks psychology walks sidewalks,
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Speaker 3: so some people and other animals are better at getting
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Speaker 3: a date than others.
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Speaker 1: As the as the quote continues. In psychology today, however,
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Speaker 1: we see the prevalence across species of flirting, and it
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Speaker 1: shows us that this idea, this concept, I would argue,
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Speaker 1: of courtship is hardwired into our genes alongside basic survival
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Speaker 1: instincts fight or flight. Now, Noel, I know you're not
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Speaker 1: the biggest avian fan.
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Speaker 2: I've been warming up to them. We've got a local
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Speaker 2: hawk and a local owl. I only I don't run
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Speaker 2: inside with my tail between my legs quite as quickly anymore.
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Speaker 1: I just want to point out that avians birds are
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Speaker 1: amazing at the courtship.
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Speaker 2: Oh dude, I mean, I think I told you. One
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Speaker 2: of the reasons I've been warming up to birds is
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Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of the board game Wingspan, and
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Speaker 2: in that there's all these incredibly beautifully illustrated cards of
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Speaker 2: like every bird you can imagine. They're always adding new
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Speaker 2: birds to the deck, and they give you a little
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Speaker 2: helpful tidbit about each of these birds when you play
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Speaker 2: the card, and a very pleasant voice if you're playing
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Speaker 2: it on the switch or Mobile. We're not sponsored by
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Speaker 2: wing spam, but it's a great game. Or if you're
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Speaker 2: played on mobile Alabama hundred percent yeah Mobile, they say
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Speaker 2: it yonder. Yeah. I have definitely learned about, you know,
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Speaker 2: the courtship, the amazing rituals of birds by playing this game.
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Speaker 2: And the thing I think that maybe sets them apart
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Speaker 2: and makes them better at it is that they just
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Speaker 2: do it with such precision. There's no like styling on it.
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Speaker 2: I mean there sometimes there's certain dances that's right choreography.
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Speaker 2: But I guess what I'm getting at. Maybe this is
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Speaker 2: this is wrongheaded, but it just seems that it's a
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Speaker 2: little bit more laser focused, and it's like it's gonna happen.
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Speaker 2: It's gonna happen for you. If you just spin around
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Speaker 2: in circles and hop up and down enough and tweets
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Speaker 2: at the right rhythm, you're going to find a mate
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Speaker 2: because it is conducive to the betterment of bird kind.
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Speaker 2: But with humans, we get so in our heads about
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Speaker 2: it to your point that it just doesn't work out
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Speaker 2: that way every time. And maybe it's hard for the
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Speaker 2: birds too, but it just seems like they kind of
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Speaker 2: got it figured out, is all.
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Speaker 1: I'm saying, yeah, they're scope did They're locked in on
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Speaker 1: like a very specific bird. To your point, You'll never
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Speaker 1: see an owl flirting with a corvid. You'll never see
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Speaker 1: a hawk flirting with a sparrow. They know what they're about,
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Speaker 1: They've got their demographics decided, and they are existing. I
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Speaker 1: love this novel because they are existing in a rigid hierarchy, right.
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Speaker 2: Which we exist in too. But because of things like
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Speaker 2: social media and you know, entertainment and different things that
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Speaker 2: we compare ourselves to and always kind of thinking about thinking,
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Speaker 2: it is a little less straightforward.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because of the metacognition getting in one's head. Uh.
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Speaker 1: It turns out, folks, this is a true story. Back
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Speaker 1: in the reign of Queen Victoria, a lot of human being, Yeah,
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Speaker 1: a lot of human beings had the same rigid hierarchy
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Speaker 1: of flirting that birds possessed today.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Victorian area with their mannered ways. I guess
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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about it from BBC dramas and.
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Speaker 1: Upstairs, downstairs everybody one hundred percent.
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Speaker 2: And it was a response to the rapid industrialization of
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Speaker 2: British society and kind of another enlightenment, you know, with
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Speaker 2: knowledge and information and technology improving and spreading at exponential rates.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, think about it. We have all of a sudden
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Speaker 1: as a civilization arrived at the rest of the world.
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Speaker 1: There are printing presses, there are railroads. You can send
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Speaker 1: a letter to someone that you would ordinarily never be
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Speaker 1: able to meet in person, and then you can hop
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Speaker 1: a train and go see them. You can also learn
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Speaker 1: more about other cultures. At this point, literacy is still
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Speaker 1: not for everyone. But if you are a person who
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Speaker 1: can read, if you are literate, then you also read
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Speaker 1: a ton of books and you want to talk about
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Speaker 1: those books with other people. This is the age of
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Speaker 1: scientific progress.
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Speaker 2: Right right, the age of Darwin and his Origin of
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Speaker 2: the a on the origin of the species.
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Speaker 1: He ate everyone, folks, Jack was right.
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Speaker 2: He ate the tortoises, he ate the hares, he ate
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Speaker 2: whatever he made a note about. Apparently, Yeah, no, shout
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Speaker 2: out to Jack for sure. And that very important work
13:14
Speaker 2: dropped in eighteen fifty nine, which also gave rise to
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Speaker 2: some more novel interpretations of Bible stories, non Anglican branches
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Speaker 2: of the Church, and a brand new thing on the scene,
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Speaker 2: still pretty popular today, atheism.
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Speaker 1: Go team anyway with a society of flux Queen Victoria
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Speaker 1: sought to sort of diminish or suppress this evolving tide
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Speaker 1: of scientific secular inquiry. Yeah, she was a web blanket
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Speaker 1: boo science, says the queen. She said, we need to
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Speaker 1: shore up our cultural definitions. We need traditional Christian values, purity, piety, duty.
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Speaker 1: To put that in modern terms, that means state virgin
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Speaker 1: until you're married.
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Speaker 2: Chased, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Speaker 1: And piety. Do you want to talk a little bit
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Speaker 1: about that all.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Victoria really was trying to impose some very rigid
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Speaker 2: traditional kind of family values. I guess, let's say, casting
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Speaker 2: a woman as having the duty of being chased a
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Speaker 2: woman of God, to marry a man comparable compatible with
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Speaker 2: Victorian morals, and of course to produce as many heirs
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Speaker 2: as humanly possible. Pop just popping them out. That's a
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Speaker 2: lot of pops. And last, of course, she died during
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Speaker 2: childbirth or her husband committed her to some sort of
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Speaker 2: backwards psychiatric institution for hysteria. I'm doing really hard quotation
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Speaker 2: fingers right now. This was not a great time for
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Speaker 2: women's rights, which is ironically brought on by a woman,
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Speaker 2: the queen.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and ren if you're hearing this, I know
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Speaker 1: we're both fans of the excellent short story The Yellow Wallpaper.
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Speaker 1: Piety to respond to this piety is the idea of
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Speaker 1: religious devotion. They wanted people to be fundamentalist in duty.
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Speaker 1: Of course, like you said, Noel, is just the idea
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Speaker 1: that one is born to a specific role in society.
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Speaker 1: Oh are you a female and you happen to be
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Speaker 1: an amazing scientist?
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Speaker 2: Too bad? Yeah, yeah, right in the kitchen.
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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, very very mean, short sighted stuff. However, as
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Speaker 1: our pal Jeff once famously said, life finds a way.
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Speaker 2: Jeff Goldblue not our research associate Cheff with it different Jeff, Yes, Jef, Yeah,
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Speaker 2: I remember that part from Jurassic Park three, The Road Home.
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Speaker 2: I love that.
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Speaker 1: Look the rigid public confines of Victorian society, the rules
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Speaker 1: of the road for public behavior. They could not stop
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Speaker 1: people from hanging out trying to circumvent these very narrow
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Speaker 1: scopes of society in which they were placed.
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Speaker 2: As T's at the top. This is an episode about
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Speaker 2: the moral strictures and all of these hardline rules and
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Speaker 2: the ways people figured out to flout them and flout
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Speaker 2: each other.
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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, oh my gosh, this is so fun because
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Speaker 1: it's conspiratorial, right, people are hitting on each other in code.
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Speaker 1: It's so nuts. Victorians would still find a way to
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Speaker 1: flirt with one another and even do a little you know,
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Speaker 1: outside of school.
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Speaker 2: Stuff ifing yeah, right, yeah, have a little tryst, run
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Speaker 2: off for a little secret dalliance right in the countryside.
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Speaker 1: If two young lovers were caught flirting with each other,
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Speaker 1: they could become outcast from the society of the day.
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Speaker 1: Usually yeah, usually. By the way, this is a pretty
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Speaker 1: misogynistic hierarchy at the time, So a dude would do
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Speaker 1: something bad and then it was the woman, the female partner,
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Speaker 1: who was punished. So it was very high stakes when
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Speaker 1: people were flirting, and you had to be very careful,
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Speaker 1: especially if you are a pressed member of the society
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Speaker 1: at the time, a woman, a female identifying person. You
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Speaker 1: would have to speak in code or convey your messages secretly.
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Speaker 1: And this is where we get to one of my
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Speaker 1: favorite parts of one of my favorite puns from your
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Speaker 1: research read Talk to the Fan, The Lost Art of
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Speaker 1: Victorian Fami language.
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Speaker 2: Because the face ain't listening, or it definitely is listening
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Speaker 2: and looking out for signs that you read my code
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Speaker 2: and that you want to get busy. You know, Ben,
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Speaker 2: I think part of the reason that Victoria means this
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Speaker 2: is maybe stating the obvious, but the Victorian era is
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Speaker 2: so romanticized is because secret love is so much more sultry,
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Speaker 2: you know than like out in the open love, like
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Speaker 2: forbidden love. You know, I only guess you when it's dangerous. Well,
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Speaker 2: there's so many I mean, this isn't really my wheelhouse,
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Speaker 2: but if I'm not mistaken, there are definitely a lot
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Speaker 2: of pretty, you know, sultry novelizations of this era and
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Speaker 2: the types of little trysts that some of these very
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Speaker 2: mannered folks would have.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're their entire novels about this that are in
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Speaker 1: the Western cannon. Uh, like Silas Martyr for instance.
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Speaker 2: Uh.
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Speaker 1: And what I love about it is the the idea
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Speaker 1: that something as simple as one person touching the top
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Speaker 1: of another person's hand, that's like skin amax. Oh Yeah,
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Speaker 1: that's super that's that's super racy. And it's because of
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Speaker 1: the oppression women, if we're being honest, in the Victorian era,
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Speaker 1: people living under this reign, women couldn't like you couldn't
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Speaker 1: blow out a candle around a dude because you might,
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Speaker 1: you know, you might be making the wrong face, your lips.
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Speaker 2: A little too much. Yeah, man, I didn't I didn't
19:53
Speaker 2: know this. But Wren pointed out that Victorians are who
19:56
Speaker 2: kind of invented the idea of light and dark meat.
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Speaker 2: Lest they have to refer to a leg or a
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Speaker 2: breast and you know, get titillated or be titillated.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You also can't say that you're going
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Speaker 1: to bed at the end of the night because the
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Speaker 1: if a dude hears you, they might imagine certain things
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Speaker 1: your neglige perhaps Oh my gosh, I can picture the ankle,
20:26
Speaker 1: your dressing gown.
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Speaker 2: This is so gross, this is crazy.
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Speaker 1: I wish he and Pearl did a sketch about this.
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Speaker 2: They've definitely done some kind of mannered kind of you know, satires,
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Speaker 2: But I'm having a hard time thinking of one in particular,
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Speaker 2: and maybe I'm making it up. Maybe I'm Mandela affecting it.
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Speaker 2: But you know, think Romeo and Juliet. You know, the
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Speaker 2: idea of forbidden love. Society will not allow because you're
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Speaker 2: from different classes or different sides of town or different
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Speaker 2: you know, social groups.
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Speaker 1: Oh, do you hear the stakes escalating? You know, one
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Speaker 1: of the closest bonds be can have is the sharing
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Speaker 1: of a secret that is true. And so now we
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Speaker 1: have very high stakes conspiratorial communication because we don't want
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Speaker 1: to be repressed by Victorian society. This is where we
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Speaker 1: enter tactics like fan language. All right, let's lay it out.
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Speaker 2: Okay, So we talked about the kind of very strict
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Speaker 2: hierarchy which involves different classes, different income levels, and people
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Speaker 2: in the lower classes typically dressed a little bit more comfortably,
21:34
Speaker 2: whereas women in high society had to take great pains,
21:39
Speaker 2: suffer for fashion to the most extreme degrees to maintain
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Speaker 2: this kind of like you know, image of an hour
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Speaker 2: glass waste and you know, covering their faces with veils
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Speaker 2: sometimes and elaborate hats and umbrellas and fans.
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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, have you ever been hot? Have you ever
21:59
Speaker 1: found yourself in like humid weather? Allow us to introduce
22:05
Speaker 1: you to the concept of fan. It's a it's a
22:10
Speaker 1: cool thing. You can wave with your hand on your
22:13
Speaker 1: face or your body parts to generate wind, make your
22:17
Speaker 1: own wind that will mitigate temperature. Yes, if you haven't
22:23
Speaker 1: heard of fans before, oh my gosh, pretty cool.
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Speaker 2: We're big fans of fans and it can't allow it.
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Speaker 2: All right, all right, all right, all right, all right.
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Speaker 1: So this this is a physical device, and the reason
22:39
Speaker 1: we're giving it such a spotlight here is because it
22:44
Speaker 1: points the observer towards the face and it needs the
22:49
Speaker 1: hand to work. So there is this entire nonverbal nomenclature
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Speaker 1: or coded language that comes about with the use of
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Speaker 1: a fan, especially if you are a single, well to
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Speaker 1: do woman, an aristocratic person. If you want to attract
23:10
Speaker 1: a husband of as Emily Bronte would say, quality, then
23:16
Speaker 1: you are you are kind of bound again by your
23:21
Speaker 1: social strictures of the day. I'm gonna say it. People
23:27
Speaker 1: were wearing a lot of clothes.
23:29
Speaker 2: Oh for sure, and it was pretty unpleasant for women
23:33
Speaker 2: in particular. I mean, dudes definitely wore, like, you know,
23:36
Speaker 2: multiple layers of like a suit and vest and all
23:38
Speaker 2: the cumbers. But for some person, but was nothing compared
23:42
Speaker 2: to what women of the age had to wear. That
23:45
Speaker 2: included that tightly cinched corset to give that appearance of
23:49
Speaker 2: a perfect kind of hourglass figure, not to mention layers
23:54
Speaker 2: on top of that, petticoats and all of that, and
23:56
Speaker 2: then uh, these hoop skirts, a crinoline, which is like
23:59
Speaker 2: a essentially these wire frames that these skirts were draped
24:03
Speaker 2: around the BBL. I don't think I know what that means.
24:08
Speaker 2: Brazilian butt lift. Oh, for sure, that's right. I take
24:11
Speaker 2: a little bit of of a hump back there, for sure.
24:13
Speaker 2: And they also had to wear like lacy gloves, and
24:16
Speaker 2: they would also carry these fans when it was hotter months,
24:19
Speaker 2: and there is something kind of coy about peering over
24:23
Speaker 2: and gently kind of batting your fan as you make
24:26
Speaker 2: you know, cutias at a eligible bachelor. Hmm. Yeah.
24:31
Speaker 1: And these these people who are of this echelon in society,
24:37
Speaker 1: they have to wear essentially uniforms and they're heavy. There
24:41
Speaker 1: are so many layers, it's not cold all the time,
24:45
Speaker 1: and it's restricting their mobility. For anybody who wants to
24:49
Speaker 1: learn more about the history of fashion, please please check
24:53
Speaker 1: out our good friend Holly Fry's work just on podcasts
24:58
Speaker 1: and in general.
25:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a history of fashion podcast that she peed
25:02
Speaker 2: for a long time called Dressed. I'm not sure if
25:04
Speaker 2: it's publishing new episodes anymore, but they're all out there.
25:07
Speaker 2: It was with two fashion historians whose names escaped me,
25:09
Speaker 2: but it's it's really, really, really good, and they would
25:11
Speaker 2: certainly talk about this stuff and depth.
25:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's exercise empathy. You are a lady of means, right,
25:20
Speaker 1: you are single, you are in the upper echelon of
25:23
Speaker 1: Victorian society. You have to wear all this bruhaha. And
25:29
Speaker 1: it's it's a paid in the keyster to you know,
25:33
Speaker 1: sit down to sit up. It's hot, there's no air conditioning.
25:39
Speaker 1: You have to go outside for a breath of fresh air.
25:43
Speaker 1: How do you mitigate the temperature around you? Again, we
25:48
Speaker 1: introduce you to fan. And fan was a practical and
25:54
Speaker 1: still is a practical way to beat the heat, but
25:58
Speaker 1: it also became a conspiratorial means of communicating whether or
26:05
Speaker 1: not you thought someone was dapper for sure.
26:08
Speaker 2: And we'll just run through a handful of them because
26:11
Speaker 2: they're so sneaky. It kind of runs the gamut that
26:16
Speaker 2: they are literal gestures that mean very specific things. And
26:19
Speaker 2: I gotta wonder kind of this kind of stuff had
26:21
Speaker 2: to evolve organically, you know, where people just sort of
26:25
Speaker 2: observed and picked up on these actions. But we've got
26:28
Speaker 2: a list here from an eighteen sixty six right up
26:31
Speaker 2: in Castle's magazine that decodes some of these mysterious actions.
26:37
Speaker 2: Carrying the fan in your right hand in front of
26:39
Speaker 2: your face, for example, meant follow me, yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:45
Speaker 1: Letting a fan folded rest on your left cheek meant
26:50
Speaker 1: no to something. However, if you let it rest on
26:53
Speaker 1: your right cheek, it meant yes.
26:57
Speaker 2: It's like Ouiji board rules. Drawing the fan across your
27:00
Speaker 2: eye kind of like that gesture I mentioned earlier, sort
27:03
Speaker 2: of peeking over the top of it meant you were sorry.
27:07
Speaker 2: And closing the fan which meant that you would like
27:10
Speaker 2: a word in private.
27:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've all seen tealted abby. It's also one of
27:16
Speaker 1: the weird ones is drawing the folded fan or I
27:21
Speaker 1: guess unfolded across the cheek means I love you.
27:26
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay.
27:27
Speaker 1: But also we could do it. We could do an
27:30
Speaker 1: entire sketch about this about fan language in the modern day,
27:35
Speaker 1: because some of it gets so ridiculous. You put the
27:38
Speaker 1: you put the handle of the fan to your lips.
27:41
Speaker 2: Like kiss me. One of my favorites is signifying that
27:45
Speaker 2: you're engaged by a quick fan blast across the Yeah,
27:52
Speaker 2: if you drop the fan, you are friend zoning that
27:55
Speaker 2: person intantly.
27:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're done. Drop, We're done. I'll see you on Facebook.
28:02
Speaker 1: And if you shut the fan, you have changed. You
28:06
Speaker 1: know this is changed.
28:09
Speaker 2: Does that mean I think it's.
28:12
Speaker 1: I think it's being diplomatic. I think I think maybe
28:15
Speaker 1: shutting a fan was probably more often used to signify
28:19
Speaker 1: the end of a conversation, is probably what was actually happening.
28:30
Speaker 1: But let's say no, someone doesn't possess a fan.
28:34
Speaker 2: Or they do and they want to just double down
28:37
Speaker 2: and to have another avenue for their cheeky communic case.
28:42
Speaker 2: They could do that with postage stamp flirtations. They were
28:47
Speaker 2: like this was they would place this on a letter
28:52
Speaker 2: when they sent it, so like the position of the
28:55
Speaker 2: stamp would indicate why didn't they just write it in
28:57
Speaker 2: the letter?
28:57
Speaker 1: Well, it's how you slide into the d Yeah.
29:01
Speaker 2: I still don't quite understand though, Like these are on letters,
29:04
Speaker 2: for sure, I don't understand.
29:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a The placement of the postage stamp was
29:11
Speaker 1: a way to bypass the fact that you are hitting
29:16
Speaker 1: on someone who may already be part of a larger family, right.
29:20
Speaker 2: Okay, And then and their letter might be intercepted. This
29:23
Speaker 2: is sort of a between the lines kind of thing
29:25
Speaker 2: in case somebody's suspicious or jealous wife got a hold
29:29
Speaker 2: of this letter.
29:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you leave a letter to your potential paramore,
29:37
Speaker 1: and you know that the entire family, the entire estate,
29:42
Speaker 1: may open the letter and read it and have a
29:46
Speaker 1: good laugh. So you want to get past that by
29:49
Speaker 1: positioning the stamp to reveal a secret message. So the
29:54
Speaker 1: letter itself might sound innocuous, right, but the but the
29:59
Speaker 1: place of the stamp is a conspiratorial code. It's kind
30:05
Speaker 1: of like hobo code.
30:07
Speaker 2: Sure, I was thinking the same thing, and a lot
30:08
Speaker 2: of these hobo code By the way, there's an episode
30:11
Speaker 2: to be done on stuff that I want you to
30:12
Speaker 2: know about it. I actually have a hobo code tattoo
30:14
Speaker 2: on my right wrist. But they were these symbols that
30:16
Speaker 2: were left by traveler, traveling folk, you know, riding the
30:20
Speaker 2: rails and all of that, and into modern times actually
30:23
Speaker 2: at various locations to indicate either a hospitable environment or
30:27
Speaker 2: you know, something negative, maybe a sheriff that has it
30:30
Speaker 2: in for traveling folk, a place that will feed you perhaps,
30:35
Speaker 2: et cetera. All these little symbols and that lexicon developed
30:38
Speaker 2: over time as people kind of picked up on those meanings,
30:41
Speaker 2: as did these fan gestures and this kind of postage
30:44
Speaker 2: stamp flirtation. So let's run through a few of these
30:48
Speaker 2: as well. Upside down stamp on the top left corner
30:51
Speaker 2: I love you. Yeah, same corner, but crosswise means my
30:57
Speaker 2: heart is another's.
30:58
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, drop the f right on that one.
31:02
Speaker 1: If you put the stamp upside down on the right corner,
31:07
Speaker 1: it's a bad sign. It says, get out of my DMS.
31:11
Speaker 1: I don't don't, don't write.
31:13
Speaker 2: To me anymore. You're dead to me. On the flip
31:15
Speaker 2: side in the middle at the right hand edge means
31:18
Speaker 2: right immediately, I'm burning with desire.
31:23
Speaker 1: Oh, people are so weird. People have been doing DMS
31:27
Speaker 1: direct messaging way before social media. Uh, there's the friend
31:33
Speaker 1: zone thing on the top corner at the right. That
31:36
Speaker 1: placement of the postage stamp allegedly, according to Cassel's magazine,
31:41
Speaker 1: meant I wish your.
31:42
Speaker 2: Friendship yep, yep. Another friend zoning and the same but
31:48
Speaker 2: upside down indicated that you were already engaged. So you'll
31:52
Speaker 2: remember the quick brisk fanning. So these were, you know,
31:56
Speaker 2: important details to be able to communicate. I guess maybe
31:59
Speaker 2: kind of off trouble at the past.
32:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're really vibing. I have a girlfriend though.
32:05
Speaker 2: Sorry, but that doesn't mean the flirtation for its own
32:09
Speaker 2: sake isn't also fun. I think it's important to remember that, like,
32:13
Speaker 2: these are not always people that are searching for their
32:15
Speaker 2: life mate. They are just trying to get a little
32:18
Speaker 2: extra on the side, and sometimes the flirtation itself might
32:23
Speaker 2: be giving them something that they weren't getting at home.
32:26
Speaker 2: You know, it doesn't have to result in, you know,
32:28
Speaker 2: sexual activity.
32:30
Speaker 1: Right, it doesn't have to be consummation. It's a dance,
32:33
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a validation is acknowledgement? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
32:39
Speaker 1: and don't forget to stop and smell the roses. It
32:44
Speaker 1: turns out that Victorian society was so repressive that people
32:50
Speaker 1: found multiple means of sort of passing notes in class
32:55
Speaker 1: and whispering to each other. Victorians of a certain socioeconomic
33:01
Speaker 1: status had a keen interest in botany. And I love
33:07
Speaker 1: that we're pointing out one of my favorite sources on
33:10
Speaker 1: the internet, the public domain review.
33:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good one. At a time when many
33:16
Speaker 2: feelings were discouraged and repressed, flowers, whether since singly or
33:20
Speaker 2: incomplicated arrangements, communicated the incommunicable. I always think of, you know,
33:25
Speaker 2: when you have these sort of maybe tales of intrigue
33:28
Speaker 2: around this era. Leaving a single red rose, you know,
33:32
Speaker 2: on a bench or something as like a sign of
33:35
Speaker 2: your love or even just like the scarlet pimpernel or something.
33:39
Speaker 2: It couldn't be a way to communicate with actual like
33:41
Speaker 2: co conspirators who are trying to bring down the government.
33:45
Speaker 1: This is so nuts, man, because I actually have the
33:49
Speaker 1: book public domain review as referencing the language of flowers.
33:54
Speaker 1: I love obscure reference work totally, as the language of
33:58
Speaker 1: flowers follows the Western symbolism of various types of flowers.
34:06
Speaker 1: When to give a flower for what occasion? What does
34:10
Speaker 1: it mean? It's just like fan language. I only have
34:14
Speaker 1: this in full disclosure because I needed it for a
34:17
Speaker 1: fantasy novel I was writing. I had to figure out
34:20
Speaker 1: which flowers character gives at a pivotal moment. Anyway, I
34:25
Speaker 1: love obscure reference works. Yeah, and this comes from a
34:30
Speaker 1: real thing. I can't believe it, dude. For example, people
34:34
Speaker 1: would send bluebells to mean kindness, and obviously roses represented love.
34:43
Speaker 1: Have you ever given one of your lovers a dozen roses?
34:49
Speaker 2: Wow? Ben, that's very forwardive, you'd ask, Yeah, I'm blushing,
34:53
Speaker 2: what's wrong with me? I'm forty one years old. I
34:56
Speaker 2: don't know, man, I've never really been one for the
34:58
Speaker 2: It's just a little cheesy kind of to me, it
35:00
Speaker 2: feels it's a little you know, it's just kind of
35:02
Speaker 2: dated for a reason. Some people really like roses. Some people,
35:06
Speaker 2: I think, find them a little kloying. And I think
35:08
Speaker 2: I might be one of those where we are just
35:10
Speaker 2: not a romantic where we you're a very romantic guys?
35:15
Speaker 2: Where are we.
35:15
Speaker 1: At with apple blossoms? This was a new one to me.
35:19
Speaker 2: The apple blossom jeans and the boots with the fur nail. No,
35:23
Speaker 2: I didn't. Apple blossoms were meant to signify the object
35:28
Speaker 2: of one's affection, and I like this one. Dahlia's. I
35:31
Speaker 2: always think of the black Dahlia murders symbolized instability, which
35:36
Speaker 2: tracks for that story. Yeah. Yeah.
35:39
Speaker 1: And if you are a young guy again, this is
35:43
Speaker 1: very scope to in. This is something the upper crust
35:47
Speaker 1: is doing at this time in the Victorian age. If
35:50
Speaker 1: you're a young guy of means and you're you know,
35:55
Speaker 1: you're looking to get married, start your family, et cetera,
35:58
Speaker 1: continue your age, you will send an apple blossom, which
36:05
Speaker 1: says I like you more than the other people.
36:10
Speaker 2: Ibicon, So more than just an object of your affection.
36:14
Speaker 2: You are sort of making a soft commitment, right, but
36:20
Speaker 2: there's a there's a tear up from that where you
36:22
Speaker 2: really lock in. Yeah, that is of course the red rose. Yes, yes,
36:26
Speaker 2: you nailed it.
36:28
Speaker 1: If you are super liking the object of your affection,
36:33
Speaker 1: as you said, Noel, you send a rose or you
36:36
Speaker 1: send get this, a purple violet to communicate. This is
36:43
Speaker 1: from Smithsonian Gardens. The giver's thoughts are occupied with love
36:49
Speaker 1: about the recipient. So a step down from a rose,
36:53
Speaker 1: you send a purple violet, and you're just going, mmm,
36:57
Speaker 1: I like.
36:57
Speaker 2: You exactly, shrinking violet. That's the thing, right, isn't that
37:02
Speaker 2: someone that's sort of timid?
37:03
Speaker 1: I've heard the phrase? Yeah? The big thing is flower
37:09
Speaker 1: language for flirting was just like the postage stamp language.
37:14
Speaker 1: It could be used to convey unfortunate messages as well.
37:19
Speaker 2: Right right. For example, if you got a yellow carnation
37:23
Speaker 2: and you are a young man after sending an apple
37:26
Speaker 2: bossom or one of these other you know, roses signifying
37:31
Speaker 2: your commitment to your would be beloved. If you got
37:35
Speaker 2: a yellow carnation back, it was you were being rejected.
37:38
Speaker 2: That would be yeah, that would be devastating. And if
37:41
Speaker 2: a dude in return received an ivy leaf I got,
37:45
Speaker 2: so there's a little difference. He was considered friend zones. Maybe,
37:49
Speaker 2: so you're saying there's a chance.
37:51
Speaker 1: You're saying there's a chance. However, if you get straw
37:57
Speaker 1: in return in this flower code or this I guess
38:01
Speaker 1: we should just call it this botany code, then it
38:04
Speaker 1: means the person you are seeking to marry is interested
38:09
Speaker 1: in going a step further.
38:12
Speaker 2: It's so procedural, it's also business like, Yeah, here's it
38:16
Speaker 2: is a little weird, and that step further would be
38:18
Speaker 2: like marriage. Uh huh, Yeah, I guess that means there
38:22
Speaker 2: probably could be opposite situations where a dude got the
38:25
Speaker 2: strawbag was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm not ready for
38:29
Speaker 2: all that. I was hoping for a purple violet or whatever. Yeah,
38:32
Speaker 2: I just in the middle of the road. Response might be.
38:35
Speaker 1: This is all moving too fast. Let me check where
38:39
Speaker 1: I should put and.
38:40
Speaker 2: Chase this flower cut. Yes, my documents check it. Did
38:44
Speaker 2: you know? Well, these are just a few. I mean,
38:46
Speaker 2: it gets pretty elaborate, and RN points out, like, where
38:49
Speaker 2: are they getting all of these different varieties of flowers.
38:52
Speaker 2: It's so elaborate, but this was a time of great wealth,
38:55
Speaker 2: and it also seems like these type of flowers would
38:57
Speaker 2: often be, you know, baby expensive to cultivate and to
39:01
Speaker 2: have just for these these messages, So you know, you
39:05
Speaker 2: couldn't really communicate in flower coat if you were in
39:07
Speaker 2: the lower class. You know what, I bet these weeds
39:09
Speaker 2: or something.
39:10
Speaker 1: You know what I bet was a crazy flex sending
39:13
Speaker 1: someone a pineapple, because this is back of the day
39:16
Speaker 1: when people would just rent pineapples.
39:19
Speaker 2: Oh, of course, Well, I guess this was roughly in
39:21
Speaker 2: that during that time. Yeah. I don't know if you've
39:23
Speaker 2: been watching Severance, but there's a really funny moment in
39:26
Speaker 2: one of the most recent episodes involving pineapples. So let's
39:29
Speaker 2: leave it at that. But Ben, I mean, you've got
39:32
Speaker 2: so much more to cover. We're going to get into
39:34
Speaker 2: calling cards, you know, and that's the history of that.
39:37
Speaker 2: But what do you say that we take a pause
39:39
Speaker 2: here and and and jump to us a second part
39:41
Speaker 2: of this series for some more awesome history of flirting.
39:45
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, are you asking me for a second date?
39:48
Speaker 2: No, I am, I forget what kind of flowers mused
39:52
Speaker 2: to send you, but it's the twenty first century. We
39:54
Speaker 2: can just talk about it. It's cool. We're on a podcast.
39:57
Speaker 2: Most Secrets here, my friend.
39:59
Speaker 1: We can't wait for you to join us, folks in
40:02
Speaker 1: our ongoing exploration of flirting and flirtation in the Victorian era.
40:08
Speaker 1: Big big thanks to our super producer, mister Max Williams.
40:12
Speaker 1: We slide in his DMS all the time.
40:15
Speaker 2: Both of us.
40:17
Speaker 1: Big big thanks to our research associate Red and Fest
40:21
Speaker 1: Red and Fair. Big thanks of course to aj Bahama's
40:25
Speaker 1: Jacobs the Puzzler. And I stumbled while we were recording
40:30
Speaker 1: because I remembered a guy who's very close to my heart.
40:34
Speaker 1: What kind of flowers do you think Jonathan Strickland aka
40:39
Speaker 1: the Quister would send us.
40:40
Speaker 2: A black rose? Something very sinister? Why is he like that? Why?
40:47
Speaker 2: Just who he is? Hughes Thanks to Chris Frasciotis and
40:49
Speaker 2: Eves Jeff Cotes here a spirit Alex Williams who composed
40:52
Speaker 2: our theme, Max Williams, the best, Maximilian Williams. And of
40:57
Speaker 2: course you've been my number one crush podcast crush.
41:01
Speaker 1: Oh shucks, you say that to everyone. Thanks to you man.
41:05
Speaker 1: Check your mail. There are some flowers for you, but
41:08
Speaker 1: look at the stamp first.
41:10
Speaker 2: I hope it's an edible arrangement. We'll see you next time, folks.
41:20
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
41:23
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.