Latest / reIMAGED: Bringing Pro Life Into Gospel Focus / Is Healing Possible After Abortion? | AmyJo Pleune & Pat VanderKolk

Transcript

Is Healing Possible After Abortion? | AmyJo Pleune & Pat VanderKolk · reIMAGED: Bringing Pro Life Into Gospel Focus

• 0:01
  Alissa: So what would you say is at stake when someone is considering opening up about a past abortion? What are the things that you could see someone wrestling with?
• 0:14
  Pat: The things that I probably held the closest was this idea of wanting to stay in isolation because I just didn't want anyone to know about it. And there's this fear rejection. If someone finds out, are they actually going to like me or are they going to totally reject who I am? I was fearful of gossip, of course. But another one is within the church of being disqualified disqualified from any position you might already hold.
• 0:45
  Just thinking that, well, if they find out that this was the choice that I made, certainly I will be disqualified and asked to step down from that particular ministry position.
• 0:58
  Chris: Yeah, I imagine even as a volunteer in a church, not a paid staff, but you'd feel like, Oh, is this going to pull me away from the ministry that I've been passionate about for the last ten years or something.
• 1:10
  AmyJo: Yeah, because there's this unintended umbrella that we kind of function under in the church that says strong faith doesn't struggle.
• 1:17
  Pat: Right. Right?
• 1:18
  Alissa: Today we are asking, is healing possible after abortion? So many men and women have experienced abortion in their past. It could be decades or recently, and we really want to have a discussion about whether healing is possible and what the church can do to help pursue healing. So we have some amazing guests with us today to share.
• 1:43
  Chris: Yeah, we have some local friends. Pat and AmyJo are joining us and they're working with a local organization called Joshua House. So why don't you both introduce yourselves and tell us about Joshua House?
• 1:56
  AmyJo: Yeah, I can start. Joshua House actually launched about three years ago and it was really the extension of some of the work that Pat and I did together for our local pregnancy center. So we worked for about ten years together engaging the local church pastors and leaders, helping to educate and equip them to engage conversation about unplanned pregnancy and abortion happening in the church. As opportunities, God kept opening doors of opportunity to engage more and more of the body of Christ in that conversation, Positive Options, the pregnancy center where we were working, just saw that expansion happening and that opportunity, and so they launched us into Joshua House. So now we are our own 501c3, and we are a team of four.
• 2:46
  Joshua House is a mission agency that supports initiatives that champion life and family.
• 2:53
  Chris: Yeah. Pretty cool.
• 2:55
  Pat: And I actually have worked here at Life International in the past for about twelve years. I was in the prayer department as one of my jobs here. And once COVID hit, I actually thought I was going to retire. And then AmyJo contacted me and asked if I would be a part of Positive Options, the local pregnancy center in West Michigan, and kind of champion the abortion aftercare program that they've put together. The other organization that we're both a part of is also Deeper Still, which is a retreat style abortion healing program.
• 3:46
  Alissa: Scripture says about the value of every human life. This is Reimaged, bringing pro life into Gospel Focus.
• 4:08
  Chris: So one of the things we want to do today is to give space for both of you to tell your story, kind of a short form of like your story, your, testimony of, God's work in your life. And you both have pretty, unique stories, but kind of opposite ends of the spectrum. Both have suffered through some different things with loss and abortion. So I'd like for maybe, Pat, could you start by telling your story?
• 4:37
  Pat: Yeah, sure. And
• 4:39
  Chris: then we can kind of just dive right into AmyJo's story, I'm sure we'll have many questions
• 4:44
  Pat: to follow-up. Yeah, thanks, Chris, for giving me this space. I'm actually one of the statistics that Life International often talks about. I did choose abortion, and it was about fifty years ago. And I thought at the time that I had made the right decision for the situation that I was in.
• 5:02
  And I actually thought that I was okay. But like many men and women who have abortion as part of their story, no one tells you that after the fact, you have two new best friends. And those friends are guilt and shame. And they stand side by side you and they often don't go away. That was my situation.
• 5:26
  And because I had that guilt and shame that I held on to, I also made a vow that I wasn't ever going to talk about it again. That vow felt like holding a beach ball underwater. You always had to kind of be aware of your surroundings, you had to have pressure on what was taking place in conversations or comments that people might have made. And it just felt like I was suppressing it and always holding it down. I had to be in control.
• 6:01
  I remember distinctly about fifteen years after the abortion, and I was then married with children. And I was sitting in church service. And it was mid January. And it was the first time that I had been in a church where they had held a sanctity of human life service. I wasn't anticipating that.
• 6:30
  And a woman came up on the stage, and she began sharing her own abortion story. I remember so clearly putting on a poker face and holding my breath and gritting my teeth because I wasn't sure how my emotions were going to play out. I was afraid that if I started to cry, somebody in the pew next to me might look at me and think, well, certainly she had an abortion. Or I was afraid that maybe I would just melt into a puddle on the floor. Honestly, I also remember thinking that woman is really brave.
• 7:15
  Chris: And
• 7:16
  Pat: I'll never, I'll never do that. I couldn't wait to get out of that church service. And I scooted out of church as fast as I could.
• 7:28
  Chris: Yeah. So in fifteen years, that was the first time that you had seen somebody else share their abortion story?
• 7:35
  Pat: Was the first Yeah, that was the first time I had ever heard anyone else talk about their abortion.
• 7:40
  Chris: Wow.
• 7:41
  Alissa: And did you feel like the way that it was handled, way that she spoke about it and that the church spoke about it and follow-up to her story was handled in a way that was done well, and it was just difficult because that was the first time you had sat in that environment? Or was there something about it that you felt made it especially hard?
• 8:03
  Pat: Yeah, that's a fair question. Because, you know, I was hearing it out of my own woundedness. And I just so remember hearing some statistics and thinking like, Yep, who is it? But I don't remember at that time that there was any offering of hope or help. Interesting.
• 8:31
  Chris: Yeah, which is, again, we're all a part of the body of Christ. If you're living in Christ, if you're a new creation, trust in Christ as your Savior. So we're all a part of the body of Christ. So what I don't want to do is shame the church because I'm a part of
• 8:46
  Pat: it. Sure.
• 8:47
  Chris: Because in reality, what I think we all have experienced is the opportunities given for that woman to share her testimony. But we also, it's something that we're not all very familiar with. So we don't know what to do until you start trying to do something. So I'm sure what your experience is, is very different from what somebody who wasn't post abortive experienced. It's probably two totally different worlds.
• 9:12
  Pat: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
• 9:14
  Alissa: And I wonder if because in the church we have historically avoided the conversation, at least in a public forum, that when that does begin to happen or if that's the first time the conversation happens and it's not something that is offered maybe as a ministry within the church prior to it being spoken about from, say, the pulpit, that that causes there to be a little bit of a challenge for people. Because like statistically, I don't know exactly what the statistics are, but within the church, it's a large percentage of people who have been touched by abortion, many and women. And so is it one in five?
• 10:03
  Chris: Yeah, one in five that are involved in abortion, right?
• 10:06
  AmyJo: Have either chosen, encouraged, or been involved in an abortion Yeah.
• 10:12
  Chris: Then you look at the like we've talked in previous episodes about the ripple effect of abortion, who it affects. So that one in five turns into many more that are affected in the room. But like your experience, we've never talked about it though. We don't openly speak about it and potlucks in small groups and like, you don't just openly talk about all that.
• 10:35
  Pat: Never.
• 10:35
  Chris: Yeah.
• 10:36
  Alissa: Yeah, it's hard to discuss. And so on that note, thank you for being willing to share your experience. And, you know, we absolutely recognize the courage that it takes to speak out. And also, we're very interested to reach people that might listen to this podcast who have abortion as a part of their past and help them to recognize that they're not alone and that God can redeem their situation and use it for His glory. And so when you first started, like your heart started softening to the fact that abortion was a part of your past, how did you start dealing with that guilt and shame that you felt like was a part of your life for so long?
• 11:28
  How did you start to come out of that, the grip of that, I guess?
• 11:34
  Pat: Because I think any form of trauma, certainly, there can be instant healing or there's this lifelong journey of healing. Mine happens to be a lifelong journey. I mean, I think one of the things that took place is I recognized that the Lord was waiting patiently for me and that He was pursuing me and that He was also purging me from past and present brokenness that I've walked in. But what really happened is about fifteen years after this initial sanctity of human life Sunday, where I had again stayed silent for you know, another fifteen years. And I could sort of feel that beach ball.
• 12:24
  I could sort of feel the abortion starting to come to the surface and I just didn't know what to do with it. But at that time, I did have a close friend. She was a prayer partner. And after being with her for about two years of really meeting in prayer and being transparent with one another, I finally confessed to her and shared with her my own abortion story. And I was so afraid just to tell her.
• 12:53
  And she was a close friend. And I remember just sort of vomiting it out. And she treated me with so much dignity and so much compassion. And it was the opposite of what I thought was going to happen. And so just this idea of a verse that always comes to mind that I've often used is, Confess your sins one to another, which just means share your story.
• 13:26
  Chris: Yeah.
• 13:27
  Pat: And then pray with each other, not me just telling you my stuff, and then you praying over me, but sharing, being vulnerable with each other, praying with each other. And then there will be healing or there will be wholeness. That was a verse that made sense to me because I had asked forgiveness on the spiritual side of things. But this idea of confessing openly and sharing your story really is probably the first step emotional healing that takes place. I shared my story with her, I really thought like, Oh, good.
• 14:02
  Phew, I'm done. I'm healed. I don't ever have to do this again because I'm all done. I'm healed from
• 14:09
  Chris: this And here we are today.
• 14:11
  Alissa: Yes. Yeah, for sure.
• 14:13
  Chris: So Pat, you mentioned working with Life International previously. I know you have a pretty unique intro into working with Life International. Can you explain that to us shortly?
• 14:24
  Pat: Yeah. So talk about a long journey. So I did the first fifteen years and then heard the sanctity of human life thing at church, and then another fifteen years of waiting to find that safe person. And it was about three or four years after that that I was introduced to Life International. Didn't know anything at all about Life International, didn't know any of the people who worked here.
• 14:45
  And I'll say that in all of this time, I had some pretty interesting, I'll call it supernatural events that took place. But when I came here to Life International, it was really about me again finding a place where I thought was safe. And I came here for the first time and shared my story with a couple of staff members. And again, I was surprised at just the compassion that was offered to me. But then I didn't know what to do.
• 15:16
  So I just stayed here at Life International and just prayed and was asking the Lord one question, what do you want? And in that time of prayer, and meeting with a number of the staff from Life International, I was offered a position here to work part time in the prayer department. But on my very first day of work, somebody from the staff said, There's no free parking, Pat. So
• 15:44
  Chris: Oh, the joys of working downtown Grand Rapids.
• 15:46
  Pat: Yeah, downtown. And they said, But if you want free parking, you can park a few blocks away at the Omega House of Prayer. And I thought, Okay, I don't know what the Omega House of Prayer is. A few blocks away, that doesn't bother me. I'm always up for a good walk.
• 16:04
  So drove to the Omega House of Prayer up a few blocks on Fulton Street. But nobody told me that the Omega House of Prayer is right next door to an abortion facility. And as soon as I drove into that parking lot, and I looked right next door, I recognized that building. And it was the building that I had been at all those years before.
• 16:37
  Chris: In the parking lot of a mega house, like it looks down over, like it's very clear sight.
• 16:43
  Pat: Yeah. So I got out of the car and I started to walk over so that you're right on the ledge of the property line between Omega House of Prayer and the abortion clinic. And as I was there, I knew that I could sit on the curb and cry, cry over past choices that I had made. But instead, I walked to that curb and I started to laugh just a little bit. And it wasn't a sarcastic laugh.
• 17:19
  But it was just a little bit of joy that came bubbling up. Because I realized that I did not manipulate or orchestrate any of the steps that had brought me to this particular spot. And I knew then that God's in control because I would not have chosen any of this. The last place I ever wanted to work is at a pro life organization. And I had made those vows to never even talk about my own abortion.
• 17:54
  And here I am stepping into this position. So I knew that the Lord had been in control of all of it. I also felt that as I was sort of looking into the window that I remember looking out of, I had this overwhelming sense of God's grace and His mercy. And it just sort of washed over me in a way that I wasn't necessarily prepared for. But I also knew then that not only had He waited patiently for me, He had allowed me during that time to mature spiritually and emotionally.
• 18:35
  And then I felt like He was empowering me and giving my voice back.
• 18:40
  Chris: Wow. That's awesome. Such a unique story of the fruit of healing too. You just talk about the moment of healing, but actually then seeing fruit of it where instead of holding the beach ball down, there's a little bit of a chuckle of laughter coming out instead of suppressing the beach ball kind of thing, the shame and the fear. That's pretty amazing.
• 19:05
  Alissa: Pretty awesome. Yeah. Very powerful story. And so a lot of what I am just noticing from what you're saying is how you recognized how patient the Lord was with you in the process to get to where you're at today. And so if there happens to be someone that listens to this podcast who has abortion as a part of their past, and they feel all locked up in the guilt and the shame, what's something that you would want them to know in that place that you used to be in?
• 19:41
  Like, what would you want to say to a person that is experiencing that right now?
• 19:48
  Pat: Yeah, I think first of all, to really try and seek out someone that you would trust. Certainly, I understand that some men and women, they're not going to go to someone that they know. That's fine. Go to a counselor, find someone that you can share your story with. And as you begin that healing process, I think the idea that the Lord, He just wants you to say yes to the next step.
• 20:17
  And even though I fought that, I fought it really hard, I was not going to do it. In my humanity, I was not going to do this. But the Lord always has the best. He always has the best for you. And to take that next step in your journey and put on your brave.
• 20:33
  That's the word AmyJo and I often use. Like, we just have to put on our brave and do the next thing.
• 20:38
  Alissa: It's a great, great first step for someone to take. And then AmyJo, so your story is different. How did the two of you end up connecting? And if you could just share a little of your story with us, that would...
• 20:52
  AmyJo: Yeah. So my story is a different story. My own story and my husband's includes multiple miscarriages before, during, and after the Lord blessed us with two adopted children. And so when you wrestle against miscarriage, learn. And so I've always, for many years, had a very deep knowing that pregnancy is a privilege and that the Lord is the only author of life and designer of families.
• 21:27
  And you always feel like you have sort of a best kept secret when you wrestle hard against, you know, trying to build a family. So I, in my early twenties, during that season of early marriage and trying to build a family, actually worked at a pregnancy center as a volunteer advocate, a client advocate. So at the same time that I was celebrating the pregnancies of brothers and sisters and I was often disappointed at a negative test that I would take there at the center, I was sitting across from women who were feeling that same fear and disappointment over a positive test. And ultimately, I was in school and studying social work. My background's in social work.
• 22:11
  And I went on to get a master's in social work, and that was a great place to sit with women and sort of work on those counseling skills. But I ultimately had to walk away from that because it was painful. I had really some frustrations that I was nursing and trying to cover with my social work skills, but it was really hard. And so I left that. And I think that I entered back into that pregnancy center ministry scene in my 40s when I stepped back in with Positive Options.
• 22:46
  And it was really a gift because I got reintroduced to the issue. And I got reintroduced to women, Pat and other women, and reintroduced to the choices that they were making and realized with more maturity and more spiritual depth that every one of those choices that you make in an unintended pregnancy has its own huge loss, right? And it has its own huge hard. And so it just became a really high honor to sit with each one in that moment of decision and in that hard space. And then Pat, that very quickly turned into sort of the heart of the church engagement piece of the pregnancy center as the Lord kind of turned my heart more to all of that, which was to create that space of safety.
• 23:43
  So when we started that church engagement process, it was in reaction to asking the Lord as a ministry, What do you want? And what we heard is, Go get my bride. Go get my bride. The idea that serving the church, from that Ephesians five verse that says, I gave myself up for her that she would be holy and without blemish. The radiant church.
• 24:08
  And that abortion and unplanned pregnancy was happening so often in the church, and no one was talking about it. And so the goals of the ministry, and when Pat came on, what we decided to do really was, one, we wanted the Church to be a safe place to disclose and a safe place to heal. We wanted the Church to be informed, incredible, because these men and women walking through this didn't feel like the Church was ready with information to really walk with them well and be part of their decision making in a helpful way. And we wanted to sort of re courage and resource the Body of Christ to be a unified and biblical first responder and part of that conversation where we really had been absent from it for a long time. And then Pat came on with me and she became kind of really brave in sharing her testimony.
• 24:57
  And so we began going and sharing and teaching and just sort of taking that conversation to anyone and anywhere that would listen and want to do it a little bit better. You know, because the church, they want to help, but it's kind of like they didn't know what they didn't know.
• 25:10
  Chris: Yeah. And I think that's, again, like I said earlier, we don't want to like blame the church
• 25:15
  Pat: for or
• 25:16
  Chris: shame the church because a lot of it is just like, I was a church planter, I was a youth pastor. I didn't know how to talk about this either.
• 25:26
  AmyJo: No, and pastors are in
• 25:27
  Chris: such space. There's, you do feel like there's all this competitive space for time and energy and it's hard to understand how do you talk about something that you've not yet dealt with as a pastor.
• 25:44
  AmyJo: Yeah, against all the social tension of that issue.
• 25:48
  Chris: It's tough. Because especially in America, it's very clearly a political issue. And then so many times you'd be, Oh, you got to be careful how you engage in that. And so I feel like that always put up a barrier to understand how to enter into that ministry space then. So now looking back, I'm like, Oh man, I wish I could have talked to you guys before I planted a church.
• 26:12
  Because it could have helped me understand things in a different way. And to just know, like what's happening in the community that I was doing ministry in.
• 26:25
  Alissa: So in your experience, what would you say is a helpful way for churches, but for the body of Christ, individual believers to help make the church a place where people recognize they are safe and they can share the things that have happened in their past that they might feel the church historically holds a very strong position on. But also, yeah, like how do you help the church and the people that are a part of churches bring the truth and love together? What would you say is like something you've experienced in that process?
• 27:15
  Pat: One of the things that I think I would appreciate, and I've actually only heard it done once, maybe twice in a church setting, is if you're going to point out some form of brokenness and if the platform happens to be abortion, I really appreciate it when the church lumps it a little bit more together and names like, Oh, if we're dealing with greed, or if we're dealing with pride, or if we're dealing with consumerism, if we're dealing with gluttony, if we're dealing with gambling, if we're dealing with abortion, instead of just doing a single finger point is really hard because then you sit in there and you're again hoping that you're not going to fall into a puddle of nothingness on the floor. I would appreciate churches handling it like that. Now, don't know if others would agree with me, but I like that setting.
• 28:14
  Chris: Like saying that does point out like, so we had this big movement across America to have sanctity of life Sunday to point out like, hey, we need to talk about this. And it's true. But now we've made it like its own separate issue, which in our last episode we kind of talked about. It's like we've so sanctioned it in its own territory that now we don't talk about it in all other categories of bad decisions we make or sinful choices or whatever the woundedness is or yeah, we put it in its own category.
• 28:48
  Pat: But then the other side is also true. If a church chooses not to speak into the abortion issue, that man or woman sometimes thinks it's so bad that there's no healing from this. This is the worst.
• 29:06
  Alissa: Right. If you avoid it altogether, you're definitely saying something by not saying anything.
• 29:12
  Pat: Or I have felt like they won't know what to do with me. So I'm certainly not going to come to the pastor or the leadership with it because I don't think they know how to handle me.
• 29:22
  Chris: Right.
• 29:23
  Alissa: And that may be true in some cases. And so I think, you know, for myself, I have always recognized that when I'm meeting with somebody, when I'm talking to another woman, my from my own experience, if I'm willing to be open and vulnerable first, that often is the door that opens to that person. And so what kinds of have you... I guess I should say, have you experienced that both of you when you are counseling people, sharing a bit of your own heart with somebody in your own story, and then that helps them to be able to be vulnerable with you?
• 30:09
  AmyJo: Definitely. And definitely, it's a piece of the messaging that Pat and I bring is that everyone is waiting for someone to go first. That's that put on your brave. Because not only are you not alone, everybody has a story, but everybody has a story worth sharing. Exactly.
• 30:25
  Because we're all in this thing together. And, you know, Christ came for us who go our own way and to point us back to restoration in every kind of brokenness, right?
• 30:36
  Pat: I would say that with almost every woman and man that we've had abortion conversations
• 30:45
  AmyJo: with,
• 30:47
  Pat: they come with a bit of a wound against the church. We almost always will start with an apology and just apologize on behalf of the way the church may have handled the situation or words that were spoken not meant to be harmful, but they're words that were chosen were harmful. And so that's usually our first approach.
• 31:13
  AmyJo: Or just weren't there. Weren't ready to walk with you
• 31:17
  Pat: in that hard space. So
• 31:22
  Chris: where do you feel the greatest, if you could say, if I could communicate to any man or woman, young girl, older woman who's been pushing that beach ball underwater for decades, if you could say, here's a message of hope for you, how would you encapsulate that into a kind of a closing, you know, I want you to hear this above all things.
• 31:52
  Pat: Yeah. Well, there's always room. There's always room for forgiveness. There's always room for the redemptive power and grace of Jesus. There's always room for transformation.
• 32:04
  But I think one of the areas that we sometimes close, And that's about something that we've talked about numerous times that we both believe that every pregnancy changes the world. Because every pregnancy forces us to take a pause, reflect on life. And when we do that, it changes who we are. And so we think that reminding people no matter in that pregnancy, whether they choose to continue with the pregnancy and parent, whether they choose to use adoption, or even through abortion, there's always that measure of healing that is welcome. But that is so life changing, so world changing.
• 33:00
  And we want the people that we meet with to be world changers.
• 33:05
  Chris: Yeah, it was a couple episodes ago, I think we talked about the life of Joseph and what man meant for evil, God intends for good. And it's kind of that same idea like God's, He's a better Redeemer, Reconciler, Savior, forgiver, then we are sinners, we are making bad choices, we are at whatever we can wreck. He's better at doing that than we are at that. And I just feel like I just wish people could see there is nothing so far out of reach. Even if it's thirty some years later or fifteen years later or
• 33:47
  Pat: fifty years later.
• 33:49
  Chris: Fifty years later. Like there's nothing so far out of reach that God can't redeem, restore, reconcile, make right. And even bring other people, even that first one on one like you had, bring his bride to recognize the same thing that we're a part of. And if it's somebody who's not a follower of Christ, to recognize like the church can be the place where you find you can release that shame. You can release that fear and actually find a place where you can be made new and wrestle through it the rest of your life, but have a place where people will help you walk through that.
• 34:36
  And I think it's all of our mission to help the church accomplish that.
• 34:41
  AmyJo: That's right.
• 34:42
  Chris: Meaning us. We as the body of Christ want to accomplish that. We want to see men and women, young girls, young guys, like not only just to choose life, but to find their hope, their healing, their redemption in Christ. Whether it's early in that decision or when it's years later.
• 35:05
  Pat: Yeah. This small little verse that I used when I was parking at the Omega House of Prayer. And I said it every time I parked there and it was mercy triumphs over judgment. Because that's what I felt was so necessary is this understanding of what mercy really feels like and not to judge someone else's story or even someone else's decision.
• 35:30
  Chris: Right.
• 35:31
  Pat: Yeah.
• 35:33
  AmyJo: And mine, I think my encouragement would be from Galatians where we get not only the responsibility, but the opportunity to carry one another's burdens. I mean, that's what we get to do with abortion, unplanned pregnancy. We get to help carry and shoulder the burden of unplanned pregnancy in our community. It's a gift.
• 35:50
  Chris: In James, it talks about we do this with each other for healing. And then in Galatians, we do this with each other to carry each other's burdens. We're not meant to, clearly Pat, We're not meant to carry this alone. Don't hold the beach ball underwater for decades. Let it go and let other people carry this burden with you kind of thing.
• 36:12
  AmyJo: And be part of the culture that's safe to do that in. Because there's a what can we do? And part of the what can we do is
• 36:21
  Chris: build
• 36:22
  AmyJo: the culture of safety, you know? Have a posture.
• 36:26
  Chris: So one question that I've had for the let's just say for the pastors listening, what do you say would be an ideal pathway for them to maybe approach this from both the platform, like behind the pulpit kind of thing, because we all experience like this behind the pulpit moments, like a Sunday experience. So how would they approach the right pathways, from the platform, but also like behind the scenes with their staff, the church staff, the rest of the pastors, whether it's a small church or big church. So both from the platform and behind the scenes more, how would you say, Here's an ideal pathway or a good pathway for them to pursue this?
• 37:10
  AmyJo: Yeah. I don't know if there's an ideal or perfect pathway, and I'll let Pat chime in too. But I think we generally, when we talk with pastors, we kind of talk about it in three ways: platform, presence, and posture. And so the first thing that I would suggest to pastors is that traditionally, the way that we've been given to talk about abortion is from a political stance, right? That Sanctity of Life Sunday is a lot of your Bible verses partnered with some political platform.
• 37:45
  So I would say to shift and pivot from that political platform to a discipleship platform, to really talk and speak and view it as you are talking to your congregation through a discipleship lens, which really leaves room to invite that proactive message for your church of, Hey, if you find yourself in an unplanned pregnancy, here's what we're not going to do. Here's what we are going to do. We're going to walk with you. We're going to be accountable to the truth, we're but going to meet you with grace and we're going to walk with you and meet you in that space. So, platform.
• 38:20
  Presence is just to, I think Pat talked about coupling it, couching it with other brokennesses, so to bring it into the conversation more than once a year at Sanctity of Life Sunday. Make it a part of a regular rhythm of sermon content. And maybe on Mother's Day, as you offer up that Mother's Day prayer, including your prayer, those moms who have lost children to miscarriage or abortion. It's just an easy, soft way to say the word.
• 38:47
  Chris: Yeah, because we often say to miscarriage, but I don't know if I've ever heard it to abortion. And
• 38:52
  AmyJo: same thing for dads on dad's day. To those who have lost children due to separation or miscarriage or abortion, it's just a soft way. The more that people hear you actually say the word abortion, the safer your culture becomes for the person that is walking with that. That's kind of heavy. So there's some of your presence, is just say the word.
• 39:17
  And then your posture has to do, I think, publicly and privately, just being soft and holding people's gaze and saying the word in an even tone. These things sound really simple, but they really are the 101 pieces of people deciding whether they're going to trust you with something hard. It's just, can you get your posture under control to be not judgment? And then I would say, behind the pulpit with your leadership staff, make sure that you have resources that you suggested and we'll have some at the end of this time. But have some resources in your library about abortion healing.
• 40:03
  Pat has a great list of books. Make sure that your leadership knows where to direct someone. You don't have to actually be the counsel. You may be a church that has a counseling program and then make sure that you're trained up and ready on this issue. If you don't, just make sure that you know where the resources are so that you can hand someone off well.
• 40:25
  Chris: And obviously Joshua House and Life International, we do trainings. Like there's ways to bring your staff into
• 40:31
  AmyJo: That's right.
• 40:31
  Chris: Or elders. Whatever level the church is willing to engage in that, they're helpful in every way.
• 40:38
  AmyJo: Yep. And I guess if I was to say or mention one more thing, lovingly, is that confidentiality in any church setting is just very delicate because of the familiarity of a community, because of the prayer corners and the prayer chains and the prayer teams. And part of being a safe culture church is really holding someone's story with honor. And so I would just make sure that leadership is all trained up, and you really don't have to share a lot to request prayer and the details of someone's story. And I think we get a little clumsy with that under the covering of prayer.
• 41:18
  And so that would be kind of a soft call up to myself and the rest of the body
• 41:24
  Alissa: in that. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good Thanks
• 41:29
  Chris: for that wisdom.
• 41:31
  Alissa: Keep things confidential and honor other people in the way that you handle their story. It's great.
• 41:37
  Chris: So
• 41:38
  Alissa: we started this episode off by asking if healing is possible after abortion. So what would you say to that, Pat?
• 41:46
  Pat: Yeah, the answer to that is certainly a yes. Healing is possible. But allow yourself, be gentle with yourself and allow yourself the time that it takes to become spiritually, emotionally, relationally, and even physically whole to step into that healing process.
• 42:10
  Alissa: And thank you for your courage today, both of you, and for sharing the way that the Lord brought the two of you together in your stories as a great example of how he works and the way that he weaves our stories and friendships together, even when you don't see it coming. So for someone who may be listening, next steps, your ministry is called Joshua House. And people, we will put in our show notes to able to reach out to the two of you. But specifically, you work with the church, I. E.
• 42:48
  The body of Christ, individuals. Who should reach out to you, I guess? Is it anyone that is interested in talking about healing and issues pertaining to life?
• 43:03
  AmyJo: Kind of people Yeah. If you're interested in bringing conversations about some of the more sensitive topics to your church, we have workshops, we do small groups, we have retreats, conferences, panel discussions about all kinds of different life issues. And so anybody who's interested in kind of gathering around a certain subject matter, we're happy to come.
• 43:28
  Chris: Really, any entry level conversation all the way up to staff trainings and doing work with the whole Absolutely. Congregation and
• 43:37
  Pat: Talk about your training that you put together for pregnancy centers.
• 43:41
  AmyJo: Yeah, if you're a PRC that wants to lean into your church engagement program a little bit more intensely or look at the Church's unique position to really engage the issue. We have a training called Partnerships That Thrive that I do with pregnancy resource centers around the country, so that's part of it, too. But yeah, we've worked with the mental health field to bring that conversation if you're a therapist or a doula or someone who's wanting to know how to engage that conversation with somebody who's going through pregnancy and may have this history as well.
• 44:19
  Chris: I think too, one of the things I hear is also just being willing to, as the body of Christ, to just enter the conversation and know that you'll probably fumble and that's okay. Like just enter the conversation and try to learn with each other, seek out the organizations that are trying to speak into that because it's better to like enter and engage in that conversation than to try to say, because I don't know, I'm just going to avoid it.
• 44:50
  Pat: Yeah. You don't always have to know all the answers. But you do know how to get to the answers. You do have to know who the reference people are. And there really are a lot of organizations nationally that offer abortion recovery for sure.
• 45:08
  And some are one on one Zoom so that you can really remain anonymous and others are group settings that work better for people. And then there's the retreat style. And you really have to just figure out what's your learning style and what's your fear level and take that next step. What's your fear level?
• 45:28
  Chris: What level of courage you're willing to step into right away.
• 45:31
  Alissa: Yeah. Yeah. And at the end of the day, as believers, we kind of referencing back to our last episode, we're ultimately all in the same boat. Every single one of us has fallen short of perfection, obviously. And so Christians of all people ought to be the ones who are willing to engage, to humbly and prayerfully interact with someone who has terrible brokenness in their past because frankly, we all do.
• 46:09
  And so, you know, just bringing it full circle, I guess, from our last episode, yes, there may be varying degrees of sin, but all sin is enough for each and every one of us to need a savior. And so I would just like to encourage people to go and find Joshua House, reach out to these ladies, even if they aren't the ones that you would be able to connect with because you're not local, I'm sure that they could connect you to someone that would be a great resource. And having the option of remaining anonymous or just a one on one situation, there's so many ways that people actually do want to help, actually do want to live out the truth and the fruits of what a changed heart in life looks like. And then in addition to that, you can always reach out to us at reimaged@lifeinternational.com and we would be happy to engage in conversations as well.