Latest / Auto Collabs / Talking in Parables with Ben Hadley

Transcript

Talking in Parables with Ben Hadley · Auto Collabs

• 0:00
  So today, Paul and I found this fancy little thing. It's, it's called- [upbeat music] This is Auto Collabs. The- [laughs]
• 0:16
  I'm like, "What are you even gonna say right now?" What was he gonna say? [laughs] I, I can say something like that- 'Cause you keep wanting to call it the low end-... probably every day... the, the, the Cirillo boost.
• 0:24
  It's called- We found it. It's on the Road Caster... babe It's called the Cirillo boost. Big Bottom Kyle. It gets us... It's called Big Bottom TM. Big Bottoms. [laughs] Because- TM...
• 0:32
  we keep saying that Cirillo has the most amazing voice in all of, let's just call it podcasting, and he's like, "No, I don't. I definitely don't." He just had a button. I hate my voice. [laughs] He just had a button.
• 0:44
  It's all you, dude. Except when I went, when I went to the button, my button was turned off, and it's probably 'cause I'm using- [laughs] Well, because you have- He can't see... you have a s- super big bottom.
• 0:55
  Ooh, chest resonance McGee over here. [laughs] Ah, oh my gosh.
• 1:01
  Well, that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that we get to hang out with my dear friend Ben Hadley today, uh, and talk probably smarter than a lot of a, a lot of people want to on whenever you listen to podcasts.
• 1:14
  But what I love about Ben is whenever he's communicating, he is attem- Like, I, I, I think of him as, like, a parable teller. Like, he's always trying to connect the dots- That's a great way to put that...
• 1:26
  between, like, this super techy thing and the way that we interact with the real world.
• 1:31
  And I think that's why people love his approach to anything, is because he's like, "No, this is how, this is how everyone sees the world. Watch.
• 1:40
  And this is how we can associate that to marketing, or tech, or business growth, or anything like that, or auto sales, or auto trade-ins."
• 1:48
  And it, and it's just relatable, and people are able to kind of break that down, and makes a lot of sense to me. So yeah. You know, Ben is the parable teller. Nails it, dude. Like, he always has a contextual story
• 2:01
  that kind of allows you an on-ramp into his far superior than mine mind, right?
• 2:09
  [laughs] It's like, he's like, "Okay, all right, let, let's help everybody on the highway, right" Because if I don't, then I'm just gonna be talking to myself." He- That's a great way to put that, a parable teller.
• 2:18
  No, I'm just picturing it, like, 'cause y- you both are right. Like, that, that is so genius of a way to describe him. Because, like, he's the kind of dude, I feel like he's just constantly in deep thought.
• 2:30
  Like, he never actually comes up for surface level thoughts. [laughs] He's always, like, swimming deep. Yeah. You know? And- Truth... 'cause he'll be like, "I was unlatching my seatbelt the other day- [laughs]...
• 2:43
  and it made me think about why clouds form." And you're like, "How did he get there?" But yeah, it always ends up there.
• 2:49
  And then, then it'll, and then the next we'll, and then the next thing he'll be like, "Funny story," right? [laughs] And then it's this whole thing. Long pause, right? Yeah. [laughs] Right. Right.
• 3:00
  Everybody leans in a minute. Ah. Well, look, uh, there're gonna be plenty of that in this, uh, interview, we're sure. We hope you enjoy our conversation with the on-ramp parable telling Ben Hadley.
• 3:19
  [upbeat music] Hey, Ben, it is awesome to be here with you today. Um, it feels like very rarely do we actually get to have a, like, a full conversation. Like, so thanks for joining us and giving us a few minutes. Yeah.
• 3:32
  No, I'm super pumped. I, uh... Sorry, I just noticed I was low there. It's all good. Nice. Most people are just going to listen to this. Ben's like, Ben's like the recruit when Paul's out of town for the other podcast.
• 3:42
  Yeah, I'm the other guy. It's like Paul never gets to actually have a conversation with him. I, that is really funny. [laughs] It is too, isn't it? It's a good stand-in, man. It's a good stand-in.
• 3:50
  I'll just- Smarter, more, better looking... I'll, I'll stand back. You guys- Smarter, all the things. [laughs] No, Cirillo and I are gonna make another... We're just gonna ma- [laughs] Yes.
• 3:59
  [laughs] We're gonna make, like, a, a second- We should get them to stand in if we both can't be there. Yeah, if you guys need a vacation days, just- That would be really, really great... I'll grow out a beard.
• 4:07
  You don't even need to. That'd be perfect. Don't even need to. Yeah.
• 4:09
  Um, you know, a- and today is maybe a, a little bit more, we're gonna test, test your, kind of your, um, fortitude and acumen because, you know, you just told me you only had three hours of sleep last night because you were up with a, a little one.
• 4:23
  Oh my God, man. We ju- we just hit two years old July, the end j- end of July. And we have not had, I was telling Charity, we have not had...
• 4:34
  I thought terrible twos were, like, you know, the, the classic, like, let your body go down in the grocery store and just be pissed. [laughs] Drop the weight, right? Nah. No. [laughs] I thought that's what I was in for.
• 4:45
  And, and what it turns out we're in for is just- Oh... 12 o'clock on the button. Midnight. Wake, wake up everybody. Yeah. No, the, the other one's coming too. The other one's coming too. The other one's coming.
• 4:55
  But- I can handle that one... for me, it, it transitioned more in, like, the three. The three was a lot harsher because, for our kids at least, two didn't come with as many opinions as three came with.
• 5:06
  [laughs] And three comes with this thing called opinions- [laughs]... where they're like, "I have a stake in the ground now." Dude. Right? Read a Opinions, bro. Yeah. [laughs] Opinions. Somehow this doesn't surprise me.
• 5:20
  You have a few opinions yourself. I have some opinions myself, so it's, I think, yeah. They, maybe takes after her mother, though, right? Of course. Right. Right.
• 5:26
  [laughs] Uh, well, look, you have been somebody that has played a role in a lot of different things in automotive that people just don't know.
• 5:34
  You're probably one of the biggest men of mystery in automotive, [laughs] where- Yeah...
• 5:38
  you've kind of had a lot of experiences th- and influencing a lot of things that have happened that people use and people have implemented and, you know, things that have been adopted by the industry that- Yeah...
• 5:47
  um, you know, which is, I think, part of the intrigue around you. So it's exciting to kind of unpack a little bit about that. Um, I guess I'll start off, I'll kick off a question.
• 5:54
  What is the, the thing that you were involved with, and I don't know the answer to this question- Hmm... that you think was, has made the biggest impact on the automotive industry? Interested what your perspective is.
• 6:05
  OofThat would be tough. I think advisory work for either Credit IQ, um, which I th- or, or Cars.com and Dealer Inspire,
• 6:24
  uh, was probably one of the most impactful things. Yeah. Really tough to say though, 'cause the work we did at Clairvoy, I think, was impactful today,
• 6:38
  and we were just way ahead of our, our game- Mm-hmm... uh, when I was over there. Mm. So there'd be a tie between those two. I love it. I love how you just mentioned, like, "Oh, it could be this.
• 6:48
  No, no, that was awesome. No, this other thing was really good." [laughs] "No, what really made a difference was this." I mean, well, here's the thing.
• 6:54
  With, with at Clairvoy, right, you're like, you're, you're, you're able to talk to and collaborate with almost every vendor in the space because we all just wanna know what marketing is working, what, what isn't, right?
• 7:05
  That's the, the question we're answering. And so you get all this exposure with everybody. Um, but then if you fast-forward a few years, there's definitely, like, a fintechification of automotive happening right now. Mm.
• 7:18
  And- You gotta coin that word... uh, the Credit IQ, Cars.com thing, I think, is, like, a solidification of that, of that trend. A solidification of fintechification? Uh, a ation, ation.
• 7:29
  [laughs] That, that, that's your new T-shirt. [laughs] Solidification of tech- And you get, though- Fintechification. Right. That's gonna be- You have to use this size font, you know who it is?...
• 7:36
  like, your jazz fusion band. [laughs] Yes. Solidification- That's amazing... of fintechification. [laughs] What did I... There was one I wanted for Kyle recently. I'll f- I'll come up with it. Um.
• 7:47
  [laughs] I had, like, a T-shirt- Oh, yeah. I need this... in h- in my head. I was like, "Ah." I'm, I'm real wins. "We have to do it for you."
• 7:52
  One of our, one of our video producers came up with one this morning, and what did he say he wanted, uh, in storage? A RAID array. And if...
• 7:59
  A RAID array is a, a, a server storage method where, you know- Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, you know what it is. I'm explaining it- Right... for the layman, uh, which means, like, 98% of the people listening to this podcast.
• 8:09
  It's just a way to store files in redundancy on a server, and he said RAID array. I was like, "That's another great band name, RAID array." That's RAID array. They make, they make math rock. [laughs] All right.
• 8:17
  So back to, you got Clairvoy, which is, you know, marketing and understanding, like, every channel that comes into a dealership and tying it back to, you know, at, at, at the best level possible, transactions or leads and, and understanding marketing spend.
• 8:34
  And then you've got this kind of integration to shopping behavior and fintech with the Cars.com and Credit IQ kind of in the same timeline for you.
• 8:45
  And now th- and, like, fast-forwarding just a little bit past that is, comes a, um, a marketing community that, that I'm grateful to be o- on board with you and, and, and being a part of. But, but explain where...
• 9:01
  Like, because at some point, every, uh... All great tech has a gap when it meets people, right? Yeah.
• 9:09
  And, and the people that are utilizing that tech is just as important, if not more important, than the tech being able to, uh, be approached.
• 9:17
  So what, what have you seen as, like, the trend line that continues to come through, you know, this, like, early adoption of marketing analytics to, you know, technology and, and shopping behavior meets fintech to marketing community?
• 9:31
  What's the trend line there that you're seeing as, like, a movement for auto? Yeah. I think, I think you're, you're, you're about to almost go there, which is, like, it, it's the end user.
• 9:42
  And so, like, if you think about, if you think about where auto started to where it's... uh, automotive marketing software started to where it is today, a lot of the design work was,
• 10:00
  was really for the consumer, the purchaser of the vehicle. W- what you missed in that was thoughtful design that was for the marketer or the salesperson or the whoever in the actual store.
• 10:19
  And so what I think what, what w- what we attempted to do and are doing, or they are doing now at Clairvoy, as an example, was y- you made software that made your marketers superhuman
• 10:33
  versus the previous to that was making really captivating display ads that got the consumer.
• 10:43
  Fast-forward that, and now you start seeing stuff like Credit IQ, which is really meant for the internal sales ops people to execute with, right?
• 10:55
  And, and so now you're enabling, you're, you're creating the Jarvis to the Iron Man suit for the salespeople to execute faster.
• 11:04
  And so the, the birth of the community, Auto Genius, was really just a way of saying, like, "Well, why aren't, uh, the voices of the end user being listened to in the design of the product?"
• 11:17
  Because what happens is if you design for the person, the salesperson, the marketing, the whoever, the downstream effect is the consumer experience gets better.
• 11:25
  As opposed to leaping over those people and going right into the consumer, that's where you actually create more friction, is because the, the consumer now is like, "Oh my God, this is such an easy, awesome process," then walks into a dealership and there's 17 dashboards the salesperson has to walk through, right?
• 11:41
  Mm. So they don't line up.
• 11:43
  And so I think, uh, with the community, what we were really aiming to do is kind of take all the learnings, um, uh, of, of that end user and then say, like, "Let's make their voice l- as loud as humanly possible, and give them as much impact to the design of product as possible."
• 11:59
  There's, like, the craz- this really crazy tie-in when we were, [laughs] we were talking about these crazy names of these, like, rock fusion bands where, you know, you, you have this music and it's a bunch of people riffing, right, nonstop, right?
• 12:11
  Drum solos, bass solos, complex scales being played, counterpoint and all this stuff. I call it musician's music. Yeah. Mm.
• 12:19
  'Cause the only way you're listening to that music is if you're a musician and you understand the technicality of why it's awesome.
• 12:24
  To most people, you're like, "Can you turn that down?"It's almost like that's what happened with the marketing tech, right? It was musician's music. Yep.
• 12:32
  It was so complex and it was so dialed in, but by the time it got to the end user, right, everyone's like, "Why? Why are we listening to this?" As opposed to people just wanna understand like, "I like this song." "Why?"
• 12:44
  "I don't know. I just like it." You know what? Perfect example: chat. 70-something percent of chat, the chat services sold to dealerships, are fully managed. Right. Okay? So, like, the, the end user- Did you say 70?
• 13:01
  70-something, right? Like, 75. Let's say 75% of all chat is basically managed by someone else. So, so think about that. Like, a new product feature comes out. "Hey, guys," like, "what are we gonna do?" "I don't know.
• 13:15
  Let's change this chat feat- let's add this chat feature." Awesome. Then someone goes and demos it to a store, and three out of four times that demo is like, "Cool.
• 13:26
  W- we don't even care, because we just want someone else to do it." And they outsource it. So the end user, like, isn't even, right, like isn't even...
• 13:36
  Uh, even though, like, it's considered, it's not even really executed, like, every single day in that product. They're not even using that feature. And so it's like, let's go back to playing their music. You know?
• 13:48
  We're, we're, we're helping some BDC in, like, Detroit, you know? Not helping the dealer. Can you talk about... Y- so you mentioned, you mentioned Auto Genius. Yep.
• 13:59
  Um, can you talk about the found- like, why Auto Genius started? And, like, I think a lot of people don't know what it is. People probably have seen it on LinkedIn. They've probably seen it around the internet.
• 14:10
  Um, if, if you're kind of paying attention to automotive marketing, you know, it'd be hard to not at least hear about it. But let's bring some clarification. Like, why did it start? How did it start? What is it?
• 14:21
  Um, because I think that community specifically is super important to this transition and this move that you just explained of like, "Hey, let's, like, consider the consumer and work it in with people who are actually practitioners of building things."
• 14:35
  Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, uh, Auto Genius was a re- [laughs] I mean, there's a couple different layers to this. Originally- Yeah, I know. I know. [laughs] So, so...
• 14:47
  And I'm asking Ben that question because Kyle, Kyle needs me to ask the question so we can talk about it. [laughs] Yeah, there we go. That's, that's fair. Because we need Kyle to talk about this, too.
• 14:55
  I think it's good for everyone in the industry, right, right? Full disclosure, right? Okay, let's go back. Let's, let's get- Full disclosure: Kyle and Ben- Let's-...
• 15:01
  started this thing called Auto Genius that is really helpful- [laughs]... to retail automotive, and it's doing- We were... a bunch of other things. And, but w- it needs to be talked about.
• 15:08
  It's okay if we talk about it here. [laughs] It's kinda funny, too, 'cause, like, at one point, uh, I forget who it was, someone recently was like, "Oh, Daly's in Auto Genius, too."
• 15:16
  [laughs] They thought you were our third founder. Why wouldn't, why wouldn't they think that? And I was like, "Eh, yeah, sure." You know, like- [laughs]... throw him in there. Why not? It's great.
• 15:23
  Some people say I look like people. I'm like, "Yeah, you know." Yeah. People get me confused with Mark Wahlberg all the time. Well, okay, so I'm gonna go back to the, to, like, w- the way beginning- [laughs]...
• 15:31
  right before, like, the crux of what we realized was about to happen. Okay.
• 15:35
  Which was literally just Ben and myself were getting frustrated by the fact that, like, I would do something cool at the dealership, call Ben and be like, "Yo, yo, yo, did this thing." Yeah.
• 15:50
  He would call Jake Barron and be like, "Yo, Kyle just did this. You ever tried it?" Jake would be like, "Let me try it." Boom. And then he'd call Matt Lasher and be like- [laughs]... "Yo, I did this thing," right?
• 15:58
  And then all of a sudden, there's nine of us trying the same thing, because there's this interconnected web- Yeah... of marketers.
• 16:05
  And Ben goes, "Dude, I'm just tired of making, like, eight one-hour calls every single day- [laughs]... to the really cool marketers. So should we just, like, get everyone in a... track with me." Yeah. "Track with me."
• 16:18
  He said, "Should we get in everyone in a WhatsApp thread?" No. And I was like- [laughs]... "Bro." That's just- WhatsApp? I know. Typical Android user, right? Yeah. [laughs] No.
• 16:30
  So, so that's kind of where we were like, "All right. We've gotta get everyone in something to where we can communicate." And in between WhatsApp, and I'll let Ben pick up the story here in a second.
• 16:42
  In between let's do WhatsApp and let's start a Slack group, there was this, like, probably 24 to 48 hour, like, window where myself and Ben and Kevin, who's our, our co-founder, were like, "Wait a second.
• 16:58
  We're about to throw a bunch of marketers that are at the top of their game in automotive into a Slack channel"
• 17:10
  that we were gonna do free, and we very, very quickly said, "No, we need to pay for 100% of the archives of this, because something cool is about to happen." A- and, and then I'll let Ben pick up the story from there.
• 17:23
  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of serendipity there, too. Like, I think Kevin was talking to you and me separately- Right... which was crazy. Kevin owned the idea of Slack.
• 17:32
  Well, I, I think, I think we need to introduce Kevin. Yeah. Okay. Kevin Gervais. Yes. And w- who is Kevin, and what does he do? [laughs] Even more mysterious than me. Uh, he's our CTO.
• 17:43
  He, he's got a long background in telecom and banking. Outside automotive. Outside of automotive. But the, the hurdles and problems with telecom and banking are basically the same.
• 17:57
  And so I s- I think I was saying this on, like, a used car, all things used cars, which is, like, if you think about it,
• 18:05
  the problem with auto in tech is that w- it was, auto was such an early adopter to tech that that's actually what, what keeps it from evolving today. Hmm. Same with telecom, same with banking.
• 18:17
  And so if you see how fast India is, is moving, uh, the telecom needle, right, it's because they don't have to have telephone wires. They just, they started evolving right when- Yeah... 4G LTE came in- Yeah...
• 18:30
  came into the market.We have, you know, so- Infrastructure to protect because people's jobs, and livelihoods, and manufacturing- 100%, right... makes the world go round. Yeah.
• 18:40
  And I think, you know, for us, it's the same problem, it's the same servers. It's, it's like a lot of the same kind of similar architecture. Um, so Kevin's seen the problem before but, but he, he is new to auto. Gotcha.
• 18:53
  So- I just wanna... Right. So Kevin, new to auto. Yeah. Done it in other industries. It's a great pairing, the three of you got in a boat and said, "Let's row in this direction," and then realized- Yeah...
• 19:03
  you needed a bigger boat. Yeah. And on top of that, I mean, like, there, there's a... I think we're also trying to kick around something which is relatively new, which is we're calling it market product fit. Mm-hmm.
• 19:14
  Um, which is the concept that, like most people build a company and they go product market fit in that literal order. They build a product, they hope to God it fits into the market.
• 19:25
  And if it doesn't, they iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate. What we said was like, "Well, we know who the end user is. It's these people." Mm-hmm. Right? "It's this community.
• 19:36
  So let's just let them tell us what needs to change in the world, and then be the, the arm to do it." So cool. So smart. Yeah.
• 19:43
  And you have the, you have the intelligence and, like, the nimble nature of what all the founders are doing allows you to react. And then you have- Yeah...
• 19:52
  like, the, the, the most brilliant group of geniuses, [laughs] right? So, so- They live up to the name. I mean- I know. It's unbelievable the people that you have...
• 20:01
  I, they, I think, like, day, like, five, Leo Garcia came out with this crazy hack, still one of my favorite posts, on Facebook, uh, when Facebook was taking away- I remember this. We covered it. Yes. Yep.
• 20:14
  That was, still is, still works. You know? Um, killer. Absolutely killer. Anybody that's listening, if you think you're a genius, www.autogenius.io. There you go. Yeah. [laughs] Shaven's plug. We'll- Yeah... no problem.
• 20:28
  Yeah. We'll allow it. The more, the more people... Hey, you, you guard the gate pretty well, so, like- Yeah. Yeah... it's not, anybody can't join. Uh- No, we say no way more than we say yes... are you good enough?
• 20:37
  This is great. This is a great recruiting ploy. The Marines did it back in the day, right? [laughs] They, their budget got cut in recruiting and the Army's like, "We're gonna spend on ads."
• 20:44
  Navy's like, "We're spending on ads." Marines like, "Uh, we don't have any money. Um, we don't know if you're good enough to join us, actually." [laughs] Yeah. And they're the only ones that met their recruiting quota.
• 20:53
  [laughs] True that. True that. I love it. So good. Yeah, that's awesome.
• 20:56
  Well, okay, so, so out of this, obviously there's a few things that, and we're, we're gonna be doing some of the things that happen within this community, but also that have now i- informed products.
• 21:06
  But, you know, uh, the Pitch Tank community has really been built around, um, which Pitch Tank is essentially dealers pitching vendors, has been built around this Auto Genius community, kinda searching out and seeking out, not just for themselves, but really for the industry at this point.
• 21:21
  Like, what's good tech? What works? What doesn't work? What, what are good partners?
• 21:25
  And then this turn of like, hey, dealers, and, and this kinda market product fit idea, is that, hey, dealers have needs, and I think even Steve Greenfield is tapping into the, this with his dealer fund, is, hey, dealers have needs that are needing to now be expressed first from the dealer side to the tech world of like, "If we don't solve this, guys, someone help us out," right?
• 21:48
  Yeah. Yep. Um, we can't build it all. And a lot of, you know, a lot of tech has been built by dealers moving out of the dealer world and building tech.
• 21:56
  But now it's like, "Hey, we're doing really great over here, but if we don't meet that, then all of a sudden," you know, to, to be grim, like, "we're gonna die."
• 22:04
  And so, hey, tech partners, you know, what, what, what do we need? And so I guess,
• 22:10
  you know, for, from an Auto Genius perspective, kind of answering this, what tech needs are, is, is the Auto Genius community, uh, like, said and then are now being built?
• 22:20
  And then also, you know, what, what are you seeing that dealers are continually asking for even outside of that from industry partners right now that we might kinda see at, at a Sodacon? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think...
• 22:35
  What reminds me of this conversation early on with one of our clients, and I'm gonna keep him anonymous 'cause he prefers that way, but, um, he pointed out that, you know, he found it weird, um,
• 22:47
  that you could, you could have someone sell, like, selling CRM in, in our industry, right? Like, a VinSolutions, Elead, whatever, go into his store,
• 22:57
  and then he was like, "You know, do you think they're logging that in VinSolutions, Elead, in like a self-made CRM, or do you think they're logging that in Salesforce?"
• 23:08
  99% of the time, that guy is logging that, that salesperson from Elead or from VinSolutions logging that activity in Salesforce. And so you look at that and you go, "Wait, why hasn't Salesforce just entered into auto?"
• 23:24
  And I think that is, like, an in- it's an interesting thing because auto's a $1.9 trillion industry that any, l- Shopify, HubSpot, all of these guys should be like, "Why aren't..."
• 23:39
  And it, it, it's because the, all of the data is so disconnected and it's so hard to enter
• 23:46
  that, um, that I think that's problem number one, uh, that, like, AG is approaching and solving, which is kinda connecting, normalizing all of the data,
• 23:56
  and then allowing for outside, uh, uh, tech companies to actually be a part of automotive. And I think when you think about collaboration, um, you can't just think about within our confined walls.
• 24:10
  Like, that is step one for sure, is getting all the, uh, kind of vendor partners that we all work with within the industry to, to, to, to join hands and, like, do some cool stuff.
• 24:22
  But you look at s- outside where everybody has open API documentation, everybody has an easy way to migrate data from back, back and forth.
• 24:30
  If you look outside of the industry-There is, like, um, not just collaboration, but the encouragement of collaboration through all of those open APIs and through that documentation. So I think that's number two.
• 24:43
  Um, and then I think the third one, um, is, is sort of breaking down automotive from sort of, like, one platform to rule them all into microservices
• 25:01
  so that you can adopt just as much as you need from everybody. Um, and I think that,
• 25:08
  I think that's gonna be, like, the third big impact that we have is, is- H- how long do you realistically think it takes us to get there? [sighs] And I don't mean completely there, right? Like, how many...
• 25:20
  how long before you feel like there's meaningful adoption and motion in that direction where we can say, like,, "Hey, this is, this is becoming the norm." I think the- Are we a, like, decade away?
• 25:34
  When it becomes the norm? Are we five years away? Do you see- Anyways, I... minimum, minimum three, probably around five feels right. The dots that I'm connecting are, like, who's the, who's the new CEO of Ford?
• 25:49
  Jim Farley. Yeah. Jim Farley, right? His podcast for a while has been sponsored by Salesforce. Interesting. I don't know. Yeah. Totally. Right? Like, like, why would you have your s- podcast sponsored by someone that,
• 26:03
  like, can't even really truly be deep into this industry, right? Unless you w- have a want, need, et cetera, to be into this industry. Benioff wants some kind of special racetrack time. I don't know.
• 26:13
  [laughs] Yeah, maybe. [laughs] That's fair. Okay. He just wants to drive a Mach-E. It could be that. It could be. It could be. That's... he just wants a- It could be that. Yeah. But, like- He wants a branded Mach-E.
• 26:23
  [laughs] Put, put, put the tinfoil hat on with me for a second. Yeah. [laughs] Like, like, um, you know, I know for a fact, uh, uh, Shopify has tried to enter the market eight times and failed.
• 26:37
  So it's not like they- The automotive space, you're saying. Into the automotive space. Yep. So it's not like the outside-of-auto guys don't want to jump in. They're just having a really hard time doing it.
• 26:47
  They come in with a lot of capital, um, and that certainly helps expedite things. Yeah. They probably are like, "Hey, let's get into that space. It looks really attractive." Exploratory committee.
• 26:57
  They come back, they're like, "It's much uglier than you thought." [laughs] Yeah. Right? It's like- Yeah... pull up, man. Yeah. Pull up. Just kidding.
• 27:03
  Actually, Dale Pollak tells an exam- talks about that in his book, Like I See It, where he lists, like, the lack of data sharing or the expense behind it as the, one of the single largest, you know, stops of innovation in automotive, period.
• 27:16
  Yeah. And he told a story about a company who was developing this really great product for service, and Dale was like, "I had it. You know, I consulted on it. I thought it was great.
• 27:24
  It was gonna be great for everybody," and then they bailed on the project when they found out how much it was gonna cost to get the data they needed to do it. Yep. Yeah, that makes sense. So not a new trend. That's nuts.
• 27:33
  So, and so, okay, so you said three to five years. What's the tipping point? What has to happen, right? What is the point where, where, like, everyone's gonna get the message, like, "Hey, if we...
• 27:43
  you know, you can't beat them, join them." 'Cause right, right now it's like the walls of defense are up, right? Yep. "Let's protect what we've built."
• 27:48
  And at some point everyone realizes or the smart ones realize, like, "Eh, we can put ourselves out of business or we can be put out of business," right? What do you think- I think- What is that thing?
• 27:58
  I think that's gonna be, uh, context-wise, in software you... people get really excited when you have a unicorn. You'll hear them be like, "Oh my God, billion-dollar company. They're a unicorn."
• 28:13
  In automotive, if you look at the top 150 accounts- [laughs]... right? The top 150 dealer groups, it's a lot of unicorns. There's probably, like, 150 of them. Right. [laughs] You know?
• 28:24
  And we somehow take that for granted. Somehow we're like- It's just normal for us... the software one, though- Yeah... that's a bigger deal. Mm-hmm.
• 28:31
  So I think what you're gonna see as a tipping point is as soon as, uh, the majority of those top 150, you see this already with, like, Driveway. Of course you see it with Carvana.
• 28:41
  When, when their tech stacks start looking very similar to the legacy vendors that are currently, um, servicing them, right? When they're like, "Oh, yeah, we also use AWS servers in that way.
• 28:58
  We also use Salesforce in that way. We also use Sal- Salesforce Marketing Cloud in that way," whatever. I think as you see those 150 start looking more and more- Mm...
• 29:08
  like those, uh, the existing tech partners that we have, that's the tipping point where all of a sudden it floods the market.
• 29:16
  As typical, Ben, with any conversation with you, I'm just, like, intrigued by it, and then I look over and I'm like, "Oh, we're at, like, 24 minutes." [laughs] I told you. I, I was like- Well, Kyle, Kyle- Yeah. What?
• 29:26
  Yeah... you gotta, you gotta have the last question and the last word to wrap this up. I'm gonna sit back. Well, I, I, I'm just gonna have the last word, and I think that
• 29:34
  for me, and, and I'll kind of answer the qu- the, the question, uh, en, en, en route to a close, is that, is that the tipping point for me is just, like, the eyes up in recognition that it, it has to come for the companies that are still holding data tightly, right?
• 29:54
  Like, the minute those companies look up and be like, "Okay, fine," you know? That, that- Fine...
• 30:00
  we're gonna throw it, throw our hands up and you now have access and you now have quality APIs and you c- and, and, oh, it is the dealer's data. Fine. Here it is.
• 30:11
  The minute that happens, all these entrants are gonna be like, "We've been waiting for that." Mm-hmm. Yep. And I think that that's... Because, I mean, literally
• 30:22
  sitting in a boardroom with a company that's creating a, a, a retailing tool-And they were like, "No, what you don't understand is that the data side of it that we have to push all of our stuff into has taken us seven months to train them on how to use their, their own APIs."
• 30:41
  Right. [laughs] Right? To be able to get the data in. So, [clears throat] like, that's...
• 30:45
  Like, Salesforce, when they wanna integrate with something, it takes them, like, a month and a half because they just throw, you know, 400 grand in developers at it real quick, and they just connect to the API.
• 30:57
  You don't go train another company on how to use their APIs.
• 31:00
  And so the minute that unlock happens, I think that any tech company that's, that's starting in automotive today, or, like, in the last year, or any new entrant, is just gonna be ready to go. And so, um,
• 31:14
  I- for me, that- that's- that's a tipping point that, that has to happen.
• 31:18
  And, um, I- I think that we're gonna see some of that recognition in some of the stuff that Ben's gonna be a part of at a So2Con, especially that dealers pitching vendors.
• 31:28
  And I think that there's gonna be a lot of workout that happens in the brain space and functional space from a product perspective. Um, so, like, Ben and I were talking about this the other day.
• 31:38
  If you're an industry partner and you bought your sales team a ticket to a So2Con, you did the wrong thing. Send your product team- Yes...
• 31:45
  'cause they're gonna be better suited to serve the needs of the dealer, of the dealer network. So Ben, thanks for coming on. And they're gonna come back with a lot of ideas. Way more ideas. Yeah. Way more ideas. Yeah.
• 31:55
  So Ben, thanks for coming on Auto Collabs. Thanks for hanging out with us and, and, uh, and, and going through that, that history and, and kind of setting, plotting the course for a lot of dealers in this network.
• 32:07
  And, and for a lot of industry partners as well, because I think, you know, even outside of Auto Genius, your industry level recognition of what needs to happen is extremely valuable, um, for this community and, and for the dealer network.
• 32:18
  So appreciate you coming on, man. Yeah. Thanks for having me, guys. [upbeat music] Um, I feel like there were enough words thrown around in this interview to make up a whole new Beastie Boys album.
• 32:31
  I c- [laughs] I think if you just selected words from the transcript and, like, dropped them rhythmically, I think we'd have an album. And actually, I think Ben would probably like that. I bet he's a Beastie Boys fan.
• 32:40
  He would, he would rip it. Yeah, without a doubt. Well, or, or everybody would need a dictionary next to them. They're like... [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Well, that's why... He needs the parables. Okay.
• 32:48
  Now I think I get it. [laughs] That's why the parables make sense, right? Yeah. He can get us on, so when he drops the big word, we're like, "Oh, we assume he knows what it means." Exactly.
• 32:56
  You know, I loved the conversation, uh, b- because for me, it's a big pain point, especially coming from the dealer side, of all of this tech that dealers are supposed to use and salespeople are supposed to use.
• 33:06
  And, and it just kind of gets overwhelming. And I, and I'm glad that he's seeing this trend from consumer-facing tech back to user.
• 33:16
  Like, what's the end user feeling about this technology, whether it's a chat platform or a DR solution, that it's actually, that it's actually being refocused on how users in dealerships...
• 33:28
  Because that's what, that's what actually is gonna accelerate innovation or change or process change or consumer experiences. Is the end user in the dealership actually able to use it better- Mm-hmm...
• 33:37
  and serve the customer? And so I think that it's actually, it's actually focusing on the customer to focus on the way the employee or the internal dealership uses technology.
• 33:46
  And so I love that there's that refocus, uh, of attention for, for new tech coming into the auto space. Mm. Well, look, that's a lot to chew on. So we hope that you enjoyed our time with Ben.
• 33:59
  We hope you connect with him on LinkedIn, because he's always dropping posts that get you thinking, and just very, very thought-provoking posts. Great conversation hap- happens around them.
• 34:09
  So we hope you connect with Ben on LinkedIn. But on behalf of Michael Cirillo, Kyle Mountsier, and myself, thank you for listening to Auto Collabs. We'll see you next time.
• 34:16
  Sign up for our free and fun-to-read daily email for a free shot of relevant news in automotive, retail, media, and pop culture. You can get it now at asotu.com. That's A-S-O-T-U.com.
• 34:29
  If you love this podcast, please leave us a review and share it with a friend. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time.
• 34:38
  [upbeat music] Welcome to Auto Collabs. Welcome to Auto Collabs. [laughs] Why are we recording? [laughs] Are we rolling yet? Not yet