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I Lived in a Crack House : The Truth About Desperation Before Recovery Clicks · Recovering Out Loud

0:23
Jamie, thanks for coming down man.
0:26
I appreciate. It thanks for having me.
0:27
Yeah, yeah. So you asked me how I've been
0:30
and yeah, I can say I've been good.
0:32
I, I honestly mean that I have AI don't know how spiritual you
0:36
are or if you dive into that realm with recovery, but I would
0:40
say, you know, I've stayed sober since I last saw you and even
0:44
before that. So I just recently celebrated a
0:45
year, which is amazing because that's my second time now doing
0:50
that. Congratulations.
0:50
And it was hard. It was hard to get back there.
0:52
It was, it was, I found it harder to come back into
0:54
recovery this time than it was to originally come to when I
0:59
first came in at 23 and I was forced to go to rehab back then.
1:03
I was introduced to recovery at the treatment center that I was
1:05
at. I was introduced to spirituality
1:07
a little bit later. But my point with all that is I,
1:10
I have like a different connection.
1:12
I would say with, with a power greater than myself that I
1:15
choose to call God. And on the days, on the days
1:21
when I'm not doing recovery stuff, you know, recovery's
1:23
hard, right? And it's especially hard when
1:26
you're not doing recovery things with other people such as this,
1:30
such as recovery meetings or whatever your thing is your,
1:33
your therapy. What do I do the 96% of my life
1:38
outside of that, right? And so I was taught to connect
1:41
with a power greater than myself because my will got me here.
1:44
And when I live on self, bad things happen, you know, So to
1:50
answer your question, I've, I've been good, I've been diving into
1:53
the spirituality a lot more, listening to more spiritual
1:56
recovery tapes of people framing it.
1:58
And that's, that's what I, I love that about recovery is that
2:01
you come in here and nobody's it's, it's, and nothing wrong
2:05
with Christianity or Catholicism.
2:06
Like that's all good stuff. It works for a lot of people.
2:09
But there's everything is suggestions in recovery, right?
2:11
You come in and people are like, hey man, you can do this stuff
2:14
or you can go and drink like or you can half ass it.
2:17
I recommend that you don't do that.
2:19
And I don't know about you, but I've I've done that.
2:21
I've done the half assing thing, the kind of middle of the road
2:24
solution. But no one's going to force you
2:26
to do anything here. No one's going to tell you to
2:28
believe in God. No one's going to, you know,
2:30
these are all suggestions and recommendations.
2:31
So it's a beautiful thing. I, I really appreciate hearing
2:37
that you've been doing well, first of all, since I, it's been
2:40
a while since I last spoke with you, but, and hearing about
2:44
spirituality, like that's, I recently just had one year of
2:47
sobriety myself. Yeah.
2:49
And that's like the first time ever that I've been able to do
2:52
that, you know, in my adult life.
2:55
And so the way I was able to have some consistency was by
3:01
taking a lot of suggestions from other people, you know, having
3:05
humility because like I, everything that I had tried to,
3:10
in order to like stop didn't work.
3:13
It was ineffective. Like, and that failure of like
3:18
that, the shame and the, the guilt about, you know, the
3:22
promises of that you make that you're going to stop and like
3:25
have the impact that it has on your family.
3:27
And it just, it feeds into itself in a negative way.
3:31
And it just sort of keeps it, it, it makes it difficult to
3:35
come back from when you aren't successful.
3:38
So I also, I get that as well. I can't imagine after one year
3:44
how difficult that must have been.
3:45
But like that's a testament to your strength, I think.
3:48
And good for you that you're able to do that.
3:51
Like that's not something that many people from my experience.
3:56
Are you coming back? Yeah.
3:57
Yeah. So that that's that's beautiful.
4:01
Thanks man, Appreciate. It yeah, you know, shame, you
4:03
mentioned shame there and it's true.
4:05
There's a, there's levels to shame, I think for me at least,
4:08
right where it's like I've built up all this recovery and so I, I
4:13
had another and it's not harder or easier for any.
4:15
It's all subjective, right? Like coming back, anyone's
4:19
experience in recovery is, it's all perception.
4:21
It's all, you know, you can't say that guy had it harder than
4:23
that guy or, you know, vice versa.
4:25
On paper it might look like that.
4:27
And don't get me wrong, some people do have very difficult
4:30
situations, but at the end of the day, it's like it's how you
4:33
perceive it. I know a lot of people that went
4:35
through homelessness and like, were doing OK for a while.
4:38
And you know what, it's just like, and then some people,
4:40
homelessness brought them to their knees and they took their
4:43
life or whatever, whatever outcome they ended up doing.
4:46
So it it added another level of shame of all these people knew
4:50
that I had, you know, seven years of sobriety and I had to
4:55
admit to them that I had relapse.
4:56
And yeah, to your point, it's like as soon as I go out in the
4:59
world with me and my brain, it's like you piece of shit, you
5:02
like, you fucked up. Like those were the thoughts in
5:04
the beginning. And it gets better, you know, it
5:06
gets better with time. And I love what you said is
5:09
like, I had to turn my brain off some in the beginning.
5:12
At least. That's even today where it's
5:14
like, yeah, I wanna go this way. But that guy's said he went that
5:17
way, and it worked for him, right?
5:18
What do I have to lose? Yeah, towards the end, the
5:24
beginning rather of 2025, I started my recovery journey of,
5:31
you know, going to recovery spaces and meeting people that
5:35
had achieved that long terms of right, which was a goal of mine.
5:39
So I really tried to connect with as many of those people in.
5:43
Recovery you you were texting every single day.
5:46
I think you still do it. That's the one thing I love.
5:48
You know I love that about you, right, Is when we first met you,
5:51
you said to me too, you're like, hey, I'm going to text you every
5:53
single day and I didn't believe you at first.
5:55
I was like, yeah, whatever, man. Like dude, every single day you
5:57
would text me and just check in and you to my knowledge, you
6:00
were doing that with other people.
6:01
Oh yeah. Connection.
6:03
The opposite of addiction connection.
6:05
Making new friends, asking for phone numbers, it's so hard to
6:08
do. Yeah, sometimes.
6:10
Right. So how did you do that?
6:11
How did you get through that? I got comfortable being
6:13
uncomfortable, you know, like I got goosebumps right now just
6:16
thinking about that. But I would make I was it was
6:20
vulnerable to do to just open myself up to asking people who
6:24
were complete strangers for their number contact
6:27
information. And then, you know, having that
6:30
commitment to contact them, follow up with them and be
6:34
consistent in that. But I needed a new plan, a new
6:39
path, right? Like I would wake up within a
6:41
sub session of like what I was, you know, going to do to take my
6:45
like, what poor coping method I was going to choose.
6:48
And I would be successful in that endeavour, in that pursuit.
6:53
And so in order to, you know, create a new map in my brain, I
6:58
needed a new plan and a new path and new habits and new rituals
7:03
and routines. And part of that was like, from
7:06
the start of the day, you know, to doing something different.
7:11
And so I would text people. And my list started off small
7:15
because it was, you know, maybe 10-15 people.
7:19
But it grew over time. I think at one point it was up
7:21
to around 200. Connection.
7:24
Yeah, I needed to connect first thing in the day.
7:26
That's it. Power greater than myself.
7:27
Group of people. That's it, right?
7:30
Simple, you know, you're not necessarily getting on your
7:33
knees every day and praying. Not not saying that you do.
7:35
Don't do that. But that's the thing I tried to
7:37
drive home with so many people is like that in of it's in of
7:40
itself is a power greater than me, a group, a collective of
7:43
people that I can just tap into whenever I want.
7:47
And I'm sure some of those text messages turned into coffees and
7:50
conversations and phone calls. And so it's a beautiful thing.
7:53
I, I, the, the thing too is it's like old pattern.
7:57
When you say that to me, it's like old pattern
7:59
uncomfortability, unmanageability, fear,
8:01
discomfort comes up in your mind in whatever circumstance you're
8:04
in. What's your first reaction,
8:06
Right? For me, it was I'm gonna go
8:08
grab, I'm gonna get some coke, I'm gonna get some meth.
8:11
I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a pill.
8:12
I'm gonna take a drink. Whatever.
8:14
Gone, at least for the short term, right?
8:18
And now it's coming into recovery and rewiring that
8:21
pathway. Hey, I'm gonna instead I'm gonna
8:23
choose healthy behavior such as texting someone, calling
8:26
someone, going for a walk, being comfortable in the
8:29
uncomfortable. Yeah.
8:31
And at first, you know, it was just seeds.
8:35
You're planting seeds because I, I didn't really see any sort of
8:43
the, the like the rewards. Gratification.
8:45
Yeah, yeah, there wasn't instant gratification, right?
8:48
Like and, and that was something that my brain had been sort of
8:51
addicted to in itself, like was not waiting, not patient, like
8:55
immediate answer, immediate response, immediate connection,
8:59
immediate soothing, right. And so to start to have
9:04
patience, you know, and to trust in a process and making
9:10
incremental change like, you know, .001% better today than I
9:15
was yesterday. And seeing that by putting
9:19
positive, you know, energy into my interactions into my intent
9:25
that that reflected back to me and other people as well.
9:29
And in and in circumstances in my mind started to become more
9:33
positive seeking and and seek out positive exchanges and
9:41
detach from negative interactions or behaviors, you
9:46
know, and whether that be personally or socially like like
9:50
avoiding sort of like gossip type energy or anything that you
9:54
know, was outside of myself and not focused on my own personal
9:59
recovery. It really, I went from not being
10:04
comfortable alone and not, and having to, you know, disconnect
10:12
from that feeling of, of loneliness to seeking sometimes
10:18
solitude as a way of recharging and, and and growing in my
10:23
spiritual path. I, I found that as time went on
10:28
in my recovery that my spirituality and, and that part
10:32
of it was really in instrumental in terms of like regulating my
10:37
nervous system, finding stillness and, and, and
10:41
connecting with my higher power, which I choose to call cloud as
10:44
well. Amazing.
10:47
So let's get into a little bit. Why don't you first tell me
10:50
what, like, what do you hope people, whenever you Share your
10:53
story or your experience, what do you hope one person or people
10:57
get out of it? A A feeling that they're seeing
11:04
heard not alone that perhaps hope like just that I'm able to
11:13
have some positive interaction in exchange and and help them in
11:21
some way to heal. I don't know what that means in
11:27
what will be significant to which person.
11:30
Like I've in talking to some of people that, you know, in
11:34
recovery that have had a positive outcome in their life
11:40
after talking with me, it was something that I didn't consider
11:44
to be significant, but for them it was huge.
11:49
And so I can't have this idea that this is what will be the
11:58
way of changing someone's life. It's just living my life
12:02
authentically and being honest in my connection because that
12:09
itself allows people to feel heard and and to hold space for
12:14
them so that they can extract from life what life is there to
12:19
give. Them yeah, I love that it was
12:21
well said, man it's I don't know what's going to flick the light
12:24
on in somebody's brain right. And to your point, yeah, it's
12:26
like every time I've ever shared, people have come to me,
12:28
man. You said that one thing about
12:29
this. And I was like, I I kind of just
12:31
like said that in passing. I didn't even think that that
12:33
was a big part of my story or my journey, but good, you know?
12:36
And yeah, it's when I share honestly.
12:39
Yeah. I was told early in recovery
12:40
that the best share is an honest share, right?
12:43
Not I need to wow these people with these crazy stories.
12:46
And, you know, sure, that's entertaining and shock value.
12:49
And but if I'm going to share something of depth and weight or
12:53
receive a message of depth and weight, it's honesty.
12:55
It's authenticity, like you said, where it's like, holy
12:58
fuck, I used to feel like that too.
13:00
Yeah, wow. I didn't know anyone else did
13:02
that or felt like that. So.
13:04
Well said, man. Beautiful.
13:06
Why don't you tell us tell us a little bit about what your last
13:10
30 days of drinking and drugging looked like.
13:13
Oh, pain, isolation, anxiety, hopelessness.
13:20
There was I didn't trust myself with my own personal safety at
13:23
at a point my last 30 days was a lot of escaping from social
13:31
settings and just the my my my biggest like drugs and alcohol
13:43
would be my higher power would be my God.
13:46
Like that was what would take me away from the, the shame or the
13:52
pain that I felt of past traumas or emotional pains, you know,
13:58
even sometimes physical pains, like because I found that my
14:03
body was my immune system wasn't responding very well because I
14:08
was really low energy a lot of times.
14:10
And when I would be binge drink, binge drinking that I found
14:15
weakened me as well. So the past 30 days was like a
14:19
lot of poor coping, really trying to escape feelings of of
14:26
emotional wounds and feeling hopeless about that.
14:30
Like it was when I went to a place for psychiatric healing,
14:44
that's when I started to have a calmness coming over me.
14:51
I had retreated from everything that was really a part of my
14:57
life and of importance, like my family, my work, my education,
15:02
all of these things I just sort of withdrew from and and went
15:06
into sort of this hermit mode. I didn't have a large group of
15:12
people that I would even use with.
15:14
I usually would do that in isolation.
15:16
I wasn't one for gatherings and would try to keep that pretty
15:21
private hidden in my life, but I don't think I it was hitting
15:26
that well, to be quite honest with you.
15:29
It from my perspective, I, I was thinking that that withdrawal
15:34
was preserving people from like the worst of me, but it was
15:40
actually harming those closest to me because I was withdrawing
15:44
from them and not being able to be present for them.
15:46
And I didn't see that at the time.
15:48
So the the last 30 days was probably some of the most
15:55
desperate days of my life of of fear and shame and loneliness,
16:03
yeah. Yeah, I can relate to a lot of
16:07
that. You mentioned you were, you
16:09
know, you're a father too, right?
16:10
So that that adds another layer again of shame and guilt and
16:14
remorse. What was sort of the moment that
16:19
brought you to your knees where you waved the white flag?
16:21
What was that moment like? And you sought help.
16:27
That moment was I was using in a place where I felt unsafe and I
16:36
was just really distrustful of the environment and I feared for
16:42
my life and was in having a lot of anxious moments.
16:46
My, my body wasn't reacting. And then like I, I kept losing
16:52
control of my body, to be quite honest with you, like spasming
16:54
like my, my arm was stiffening up and I thought maybe I was
16:58
going to have cardiac arrest. And so I, I ended up getting
17:05
into an Uber and getting myself into an environment where I
17:09
could be medically supervised through withdrawal.
17:12
And at that point, I was kept under observation for a couple
17:17
days and then I was transported to a detox facility where I was,
17:25
where I stayed for 20 days. And and then it was that place
17:28
there and that detox that changed my life in a really
17:33
profound way. What were the sort of things
17:36
that started happening? Like what did you start
17:38
noticing? Since for me, when I think of
17:39
that too, it's like, I think a lot of recovery is timing,
17:42
right? And a lot of people don't like
17:44
to hear that because I want my son to get sober now or my loved
17:46
one, my husband, he's at rock bottom.
17:49
Why can't he stop? Or I, you know, I was with a new
17:51
guy the other day and sorry, it's just, it's such a beautiful
17:59
thing, man. Like I haven't, hey, I had a
18:01
moment. It's just to sidetrack here for
18:03
a bit, 'cause I, I hadn't really reflected on this with anybody
18:06
yet. I was having one of those days
18:10
where I was like in my head a couple days ago.
18:12
And you know, God works for me, does things that I can't do for
18:18
myself. This guy popped into my head and
18:21
I, I had been talking to him before, but I thought of him and
18:24
I, I sent him a message and he responded and he's, he's not
18:26
doing well, right? And I offered like, this isn't
18:32
me, right? These things that these ideas
18:33
that come up in my head, these service based ideas, it's such a
18:37
beautiful, beautiful thing of recovery.
18:40
I'm in my head all day. Poor me, my life's not good
18:43
going the way I want it to. I'm not making enough money,
18:45
right? These things are ruminating in
18:47
my mind. What does you know recovery tell
18:50
me to do? What was I taught to do?
18:51
Reach out and help the next person, help the new guy.
18:54
So this idea pops in my head. I call this guy and we go to a
18:57
recovery event space and I just remember like having this moment
19:03
of everything he's saying to me about how his life is spinning
19:06
out right now is exactly the way that my life was, right?
19:10
And I can't, I don't have the power to get to anyone sober.
19:14
All I can do to your point earlier is share my story,
19:17
right? And so I, I share my story and
19:19
he's like, man, I did that too. I did that too.
19:21
Like, how did you get out of it? How did you do this?
19:23
And I tell him what I did. And then I go home at the end of
19:25
the night and suddenly I hadn't thought about myself for the
19:27
last three hours, right? But it's, I, I, I was
19:31
overwhelmed with emotion when it happened.
19:34
And what I do now is I just kind of like when that happens, I, I
19:36
get gratitude cries and sort of what I just did now a little
19:39
bit, I just kind of look up and I'm like, thank you, right?
19:42
This is, this is the answer, You know, service being of service,
19:46
'cause when I came in somebody else.
19:48
So when you say that, you know, something clicked for you.
19:52
I'm reminded of my early days in, in my, I've been to a few
19:55
rehabs, but every rehab there's a different point where it's
19:58
like something hope was just, that's what I call it, really.
20:01
It's like hope was popping up in the form of people in the form
20:04
of counselors, in the form of me feeling hopeful, whatever.
20:09
And So what was that moment like where for me it was like just
20:13
seeing people that had been. Happy and sober in a rehab,
20:19
right? It's like those things are just
20:21
blew my mind. It's like this this young guy
20:23
here when I was 23, especially here's all these young people
20:25
here that aren't using and drinking.
20:27
They're pretty cool. They're cool.
20:28
Like I would hang out with them outside of here and they're not
20:30
using drugs and alcohol. There's got to be something
20:32
here. What are they?
20:33
I want that thing, right? What are they doing, you know?
20:36
What was that moment like for you where it was like it just
20:38
started to click, would you say? Well, first I was challenged at
20:43
the detox in a way that I hadn't been challenged before.
20:46
Like I had had a few brief periods of staying in in
20:52
treatment places. I'd been to three previously and
20:56
one of the intake workers there challenged me in a way that I
20:59
hadn't been challenged and said, you know, you're a pretty smart
21:02
guy. You know, you're pretty educated
21:04
and well spoken. And you've stopped before.
21:07
So, you know, like you've been, you've done it three times
21:10
before. So, you know, like, how are you
21:12
going to stay stopped? And that, you know, really gave
21:17
me an opportunity to start critically looking at my life
21:20
and thinking about that. And I said, I don't know.
21:24
I don't fucking know. If I knew that I wouldn't be
21:25
here right now, you know, And and so that's when you know, he
21:32
he slid a piece of paper across the table towards me.
21:34
And on a piece of paper it said honesty and open mindedness,
21:42
truth, brotherhood, restitution. Yeah.
21:49
And and there was a few other words that I can't recall at
21:51
this time, but. And behind each one of those
21:52
words was a blank space on the like a blank line.
21:56
And he instructed me to write in that empty space, trust the
22:00
process. And then to put like a little
22:02
arrow to the next lane at the end, Trust the process.
22:06
So behind each word, like honesty, brotherhood, open
22:09
mindedness was trust the process.
22:11
And he said, this is a this is a pathway and a plan for you.
22:16
If you don't know, that has worked for a lot of people.
22:19
If you're willing to, you know, give it a chance.
22:22
And so that's how I was introduced to a program of
22:27
recovery that had worked for a lot of other people and I had
22:33
been introduced to before, but I hadn't given it a, an honest
22:38
sort of evaluation and, and, and applied it in a, in a authentic
22:42
way. But I, I, I'd reached that
22:45
desperate point in my life where I was willing to try literally
22:49
anything. If he had said, you know, eat
22:53
600 pizzas a day in order to maintain sobriety, I, I would
22:58
have given that a chance, right? So I was, I was at that
23:00
desperate point. So I started attending some of
23:03
these spaces where recovery was spoken about.
23:07
And by having an open mind, I started to hear my story in
23:12
other people. And someone had come from
23:15
Columbia to share their story. And I'd never shared that in a,
23:20
in a public setting before, but said my story, they were
23:24
speaking my life like a lot of the experiences that I was going
23:26
through. And in a way that was so unique
23:30
that there wasn't anybody else that that applied to.
23:34
And it was like a sort of like a godshot, like, aha, OK, there's
23:38
something going on here that I need to, this isn't a
23:41
coincidence. And that by having that open
23:43
minded, I started to see things that perhaps have been present
23:47
that I'd missed before because I wasn't really present.
23:50
But there was an incredible thing happening and the change
23:55
was occurring and it was by having an open mind and going
23:59
into this space of recovery and connecting with people who
24:03
reached their hand out in service to me and in sponsorship
24:09
brought me into meeting other people that had even more length
24:15
of sobriety. And it was in that space that I
24:23
started to feel a, a connectedness and, and to
24:27
something greater than myself. And I started to open my mind up
24:31
to a higher power, which I was very disconnected from that as a
24:35
even really an option of, of healing.
24:40
But by having that open mindedness, I was able to
24:45
connect to my higher power. We would I choose to call God
24:50
and I asked to be absolved and of this obsession.
25:01
And in that detox that happened for me and I felt light as a
25:06
feather when I, when I did that, when I took that moment of
25:10
vulnerability and, and open myself up to God to take power
25:17
in my life. And it's something that I now
25:20
have a consistent practice of doing, a daily practice of, of
25:27
relinquishing that burden for myself.
25:30
But in order to maintain that I have to continue being of
25:33
service to others and reaching that hand out that was reached
25:37
reached out to me. And it's that way I'm able to
25:42
maintain myself. So when you when you're saying
25:46
some of these things as well about how service has affected
25:50
you, it's. OK.
25:54
Yeah, I, I, I can identify that and I appreciate that.
25:58
It's so beautiful, right? Like that's how this thing
26:01
works. You know, I always, I always
26:03
tell people that recovery is like a pyramid scheme without
26:08
the scheme, you know, if practiced properly, like we're
26:11
just helping all these people and there's no scheme, there's
26:13
no axes to grind. There's no dues to be paid.
26:17
If you want to go and drink and you don't want to follow the
26:20
suggestions that were given to me.
26:21
I didn't make these up, right, that I'm suggesting to you,
26:23
friend who's trying to get sober, you can go and do some
26:27
more controlled drinking, like I said, right?
26:29
I love that man. It's, you know, the spiritual
26:31
life is not a theory. No.
26:33
I love that you said practice because it it's so I have to be
26:37
reminded of that too. And I too.
26:38
That's why when I LED this, when I started the podcast today and
26:42
started our conversation, the reason my spirituality is kind
26:46
of I am, I do feel spiritually fit in this moment today is
26:50
because I've been consistent with that morning practice and
26:52
that night practice. And it's not, you know, sitting
26:55
in a yoga studio monk mode, right, for two hours.
26:58
It can be certainly, but I, I added meditation recently to my
27:03
protocol and it's 10 minutes. I follow an app that I paid for.
27:07
I love it, dude. Like I absolutely love it.
27:09
It's it's added a new again. I'm going to say the word layer,
27:11
a new layer to my spirituality where it's like 10 minutes out
27:14
of my day, I listen to some guy tell me how to notice the
27:17
fucking world and my thoughts in it and my consciousness
27:21
beautiful when I I don't, I didn't even know I didn't.
27:24
If you started talking about this when I was in addiction, I
27:27
would have punched you out right.
27:27
Like I don't want anything to do with that.
27:29
The now is the most uncomfortable, annoying place to
27:35
be when you're when you're not tapped in and when you're in it
27:37
can be still too. You know, it's still, it's very
27:40
hard sometimes to be in the now, but you know, that's where, in
27:45
my opinion, that's where spirituality is.
27:47
It's the only place it is. That's where power greater than
27:49
myself. That's where God is, is now.
27:51
He doesn't exist yesterday. He doesn't exist tomorrow
27:53
because those don't exist, right?
27:56
All we have is now. And so to, to be able to
27:59
practice spirituality, service is a part of it.
28:03
Reaching out your hand, especially when it's
28:06
inconvenient for you, because that's when I find, you know,
28:09
that's when it pays off the most.
28:11
That's it. And again, it's like, I'm, yes,
28:14
I'm going to stay sober as a result of being of service, but
28:18
I need to not do it for, for anything other than that.
28:21
I would say, right, there needs to be no expected return, right?
28:25
There's needs to be no, in my opinion.
28:29
So yeah, it's, it's, it's a beautiful thing.
28:30
It's a practice and it's, it's, it needs to be repeated in my
28:36
opinion, daily too. So I'm happy you brought that
28:38
up. I want to talk about
28:40
unmanageability a little bit because that's been coming up.
28:43
That word's been coming up recently for me.
28:46
Can you tell me what unmanageability looked like in
28:51
your first maybe month or three months of sobriety of recovery,
28:55
like what what sort of things were coming up as
28:57
unmanageability in the beginning and then today, What does
29:01
unmanageability look like today and how do you handle it?
29:04
Sure. Yeah.
29:06
I think unmanageability initially for me was trying to,
29:13
you know, balance all of these different things in my life,
29:16
like work and school and family, you know, because like I managed
29:23
to hide A household. I was primary caregiver often
29:26
for my family. So that in itself was a lot of
29:29
responsibility. And so my unmanageability was
29:34
just feeling overwhelmed trying to do all of these things and be
29:37
all for everyone all the time and not prioritizing myself.
29:45
I was a people pleaser. And so I actually a friend
29:52
recommended a book for me that I read and I listened to that on
29:56
repeat for the 1st 30 days. And it was really instrumental
30:03
in providing some insight into myself and how I was perceived
30:07
by others. And, and it helped me to start
30:11
connecting to myself and learning what was mine to manage
30:16
and what wasn't. So the first 30 days was just
30:21
unmanageability. My life just managing me was my
30:25
unmanageability, right? So the first 30 days was just
30:30
connecting to myself, spending time away from any other type of
30:36
distraction and making me my number one priority.
30:40
And I had something that I hadn't done, I think maybe ever.
30:46
Like I was the oldest siblings, so I had younger siblings.
30:50
And I was always sort of, I felt parentified in a way that I was,
30:56
you know, responsible for being an example.
31:02
And so that that it felt selfish to prioritize myself.
31:11
And now look back at that and think that I could have maybe
31:17
had some different experiences if I was selfish in a healthy
31:22
way. I think there's a difference
31:24
between, you know, the selfishness that I would
31:28
experience as a form of resentment.
31:30
Resentment because I didn't have a connection to myself and I
31:35
didn't have opportunities to, to to grow in my healing and, and
31:41
yeah, that sort of lost my thought there.
31:47
At least for the beginning, though, right?
31:49
Like a lot of people might hear that and be like, well, it's
31:51
selfish. You just talked about service
31:53
and you have to do that in my experience too, at least in the
31:57
beginning, right? And to, to, to be honest, there
32:00
is still a degree of selfishness in a, in a recovery program
32:03
where it's, you're putting your recovery program first, right?
32:10
Not necessarily like I'm going to be first in every single, you
32:13
know what I mean? It's, it's kind of like I need
32:15
to put my recovery first because it was taught to me anything
32:19
that I put before my recovery, I will lose that thing.
32:22
And that goes for the next, for my life, you know, and I know
32:26
that because I, when I was, you know, long term sobriety, I, I
32:30
was practicing that. I knew that put my wife before,
32:32
I'll lose it. If I put my marriage before,
32:34
I'll lose it. If I put my gym workouts or my
32:37
fitness program before my recovery, I'll lose it.
32:40
And, and it's, it's kind of, it sounds sort of messed up, but
32:46
without my recovery program, I am not connected to myself.
32:49
Like you said, I'm not me and then I can't be me.
32:54
Essentially, I can't be a, a husband.
32:56
I can't be a father if I, you know, for in your case, I need
33:01
to put that stuff first. So I, I, I think that that's the
33:04
biggest thing that a lot of people, or at least myself sort
33:09
of struggled with is I got to find out who the fuck I am first
33:12
of all. And you said that solitude this
33:14
like, I need to spend time with me away from phone, away from
33:17
computer, away from people, at least for, because you're going
33:21
to be, it's you and you for the rest of your life, right?
33:24
At the end of the day, I always said this to people.
33:26
It's like, sure, I can go on that vacation and have a, a, a
33:30
couple of drinks and no one would know, right, 'cause that's
33:32
like the common thing that used to come up for, for a lot of
33:34
people. And, and I've, I've struggled
33:36
with that too. I, I know at the end of the day,
33:39
like I have to go to bed at the end of the night, right?
33:41
And how am I gonna. Yeah.
33:44
So, I mean, coming clean with my relapse was the hardest thing I
33:47
ever did. It took me a long time, but it
33:50
was essential. Like I had to do it because when
33:52
I kept that secret, the longer I kept that secret.
33:54
Well, what do you do with shame that builds up over time and
33:57
resentment, right? Yeah.
33:59
I'm fucking in a crack house. You know what I mean?
34:01
I'm. I'm smoking meth.
34:02
Like, though, that's where I end up when I can't relieve myself
34:06
of the shame and the resentment that that I have towards myself.
34:09
Yeah. And I'm similar in that way, you
34:12
know, if I'm not able to, you know, be honest with myself
34:15
about what it is that I'm feeling and experiencing, I
34:20
will, it'll leave me in a path right back to, you know, the,
34:24
the drugs, the alcohol and all other forms of poor coping, me
34:32
overeating, smoking. However, what I found, you
34:39
mentioned something and it, and it's stood out to me.
34:43
I, I have spirituality, recovery and then family and in that
34:49
order, you know, I find that that has to be the, the script
34:55
for my life in order for me to maintain my sobriety.
35:00
If I if I am out of order with those things, I start to feel
35:04
that. And it happens fairly quickly
35:07
where I'm, you know, I'm not able to detach emotionally from
35:13
things that shouldn't really bother me, but they do.
35:17
And it's like, Oh yeah, you know, I didn't pray this
35:19
morning. Yeah, I haven't done, you know,
35:21
that that spiritual practice. And so morning meditations are
35:25
really the way that I like to start my day before I even, you
35:29
know, my feet touch the ground. I like to just wake, you know,
35:33
open my eyes and and start to get connected to myself in that
35:38
way. And.
35:38
And so, yeah. And I guess that leads into the
35:43
next question too, where it's like, what are those
35:47
unmanageabilities today, right. For for me, it's like you meant,
35:51
I love that. I need, I, I have a hard time
35:55
that kind of covers it all. You said it really well.
35:57
I have a hard time detaching emotionally from things that
36:00
normally shouldn't or don't bother me.
36:03
Shouldn't is a dangerous word, but don't bother me, IE
36:06
financial insecurity. That's my thing.
36:08
It's like, how am I going to pay my mortgage coming up?
36:11
That's been a thing that's coming up for me.
36:13
OK, well today is the mortgage isn't due today.
36:16
OK, So what can I do in this moment right now to solve that
36:23
problem? Well, nothing really.
36:26
Like there's, there's nothing I can do.
36:28
And that that's to be said with a lot of things, right.
36:31
And it's like I go through the checklist.
36:32
And to your point, if I'm not checking that with, with the
36:35
universe, God, whatever your higher power, if I'm not
36:38
checking that with with that, it's rumination central, you
36:42
know, and then that's unmanageability for me.
36:45
It's like, fuck, I've really, I'm not going to be able to pay.
36:46
And then it's a story, I'm going to lose my house, you know, and,
36:50
and then it's like I'm going to be homeless and I'm going to,
36:51
you know what? So it just like spins out what?
36:53
What does unmanageability look like to you?
36:55
Unmanageability is if those things that you mentioned are
37:01
all important parts of, of life and living and money, you know,
37:07
security and housing, food security, like these are all
37:11
things that are essential to, you know, the lived experience.
37:17
But a lot of the ways in which they come into my life are out
37:21
of my control, right? So what I, what I have control
37:26
over is how I respond like to the outcomes and not how I
37:32
influence the outcome. So manageable unmanageability is
37:37
if I'm trying to have, you know, my will inserted into something
37:44
like, and that's not like perhaps meant for me or yeah, I,
37:52
I found that I when I have just God in my life and my spiritual
38:01
fitness is intact, that's it. That's, that's what I that's
38:05
what I need. And that will allow me to deal
38:11
with anything else that comes up in life.
38:14
And if I don't have that, I don't have anything.
38:17
That's everything for me. And so those other things are
38:21
like how housing situation can change, jobs can change, like
38:25
financial situations can change, they can improve or they can get
38:28
worse. I stopped thinking about good
38:31
and bad and just lessons in life and detaching from the outcomes
38:37
and just being present in the moment and managing moments is
38:44
become my life. I, I really, I'm hesitant around
38:49
any type of long term sort of planning because my life hasn't
38:56
reflected that. I've had, you know, things that
38:59
I've wanted to do and I've had a direction in life that I wanted
39:02
to go. And I've been able to do that
39:05
for the most part in areas of my life.
39:09
But when I like when, whenever I start getting fixated on where I
39:15
will arrive at, at some a certain point in my life and
39:20
what that will look like, I'm in trouble.
39:22
I'm in trouble like, because that's not real, you know, and,
39:27
and, and so someone said to me, you know, if, if you have one
39:30
foot in the past and 1 foot in the future, you're, you're
39:34
shitting on today, you know, I and so I, I, I, I keep that one.
39:40
Some of these things that are said are really simple little, I
39:44
guess, phrases, metaphors, idioms, but they they do have an
39:52
ability to ground me, you know, and, and, and I think being
39:59
grounded and present is what is what it's what I need in order
40:06
to, you know, maintain. The life that I'm currently
40:10
living, yeah. And that connection, right,
40:12
that's it. One of my favorite, you know,
40:16
recovery speakers that I listen to on podcasts says perception
40:21
is everything. Everything is perception.
40:23
And you, you just stated that so beautifully.
40:25
It's is the glass half full or half empty?
40:29
It's really that simple in all situations, you know, is it, am
40:32
I, am I looking at it from this angle?
40:35
And it's like people are there's other angles to sort of look at
40:39
the said thing with or am I? No, no, this is the angle right
40:43
here. This is the way it is my biggest
40:45
problem today. I always should say this.
40:46
My biggest problem today is I'm right contempt prior to
40:50
investigation. Like, no, no, that's the way it
40:53
is. It's opposite of open mindedness
40:55
really. It's that's it.
40:57
That's, that's the way it is. I'm right.
40:58
We have to do it this way because I've done it once this
41:00
way or whatever I've done. You know, this is the way we've
41:02
always done it. You know, it's, it's, it's
41:05
really, you know, I'm right. Yeah.
41:06
But, and I know if I, if I feel myself saying those things, like
41:11
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I know, you know, it's like
41:15
I got to, I'm in a, I'm headed down a dark path.
41:16
I got to, I got to check that with, with somebody, right?
41:20
Yes. How do you know you're on the
41:21
spiritual beam? And how do you know you're off
41:23
the spiritual beam? What does that look like?
41:28
How do I, that's a really good question.
41:30
So how I know that I'm on the spiritual beam is by consistent
41:38
practice in connection. And, and So what that looks like
41:43
for me is to have a moment in the day.
41:49
And I actually will do this several times in a day where
41:52
I'll I'll just, no matter, no matter where I'm at, I could be
41:54
like in transit. Just, if I have a time of
41:58
stillness, I just will sit, close my eyes in complete
42:01
silence and just connect to something greater than myself.
42:06
And I can feel my sort of nervous system regulating and a
42:11
calmness coming over me. And, and it's in that now that
42:16
I'm doing what I meant to do and I, I don't know what I have gone
42:25
coming up in my life, but I know where I've come from and I know
42:28
where I don't want to be. And so like, that's my guide is
42:33
this is where you've come from. I don't know what it looks like
42:37
going forward, but that's exciting.
42:40
Like I know what my life has looked like for a very long
42:42
period of time. And so in sobriety, I, I just, I
42:48
love that just existing in, in sobriety and, and having these
42:55
first time experiences is that's my life, That's life, that's
43:00
living life. And when I if I'm not present,
43:06
that's when I to to your point, I'm not what was your sorry,
43:13
what was the? Question like when do you know
43:14
you're off the beam? That's it.
43:15
Yeah, yeah. So when I'm not present, when
43:17
I'm not, when I'm sort of, you know, in my, if I'm
43:23
disconnected, you know, from sort of like an autopilot, that
43:27
that's when I'm, yeah. Yeah, the the way I like to
43:31
think about it, and this is my meditation practices has made
43:34
this clear. You know, as of today, if
43:38
there's one, you know, prayer and meditation are both good,
43:40
but this meditation has added like a whole separate elements
43:45
to my life. I can either be a sort of lost
43:49
in thought and I think this is what what you're getting at is
43:53
for me, it's like I'm I'm completely disconnected and off
43:55
the beam when I'm 11 air, there's many ways for me to get
43:58
off like that. What it it looks like many
44:00
different things. But when I'm sort of an observer
44:04
of my thoughts and I'm like, huh, I'm noticing where's that
44:08
like that's kind of interesting. I'm doing that thing again, you
44:11
know, in, in early recovery. It was and even still, I mean, I
44:15
don't really have cravings aren't really a big part of my
44:17
life today, but it it comes out in different ways.
44:20
It's for me, it's like, Oh, I that guy looks like he's having
44:23
fun, you know, and he's could be drunk or high or whatever.
44:27
That was fun, wasn't it? You know, that's kind of
44:29
sometimes that that'll pop up into my head and then it's like,
44:32
am I letting that thought just kind of run wild and I'm being
44:35
prisoner to that thought? And now it's the whole train and
44:38
I'm lost in thought. Or am I sort of observing that
44:42
and being like, well, I'm doing that fucking thing again.
44:45
You know, I'm fantasizing about, or I'm lying to myself or I'm
44:47
spinning a story or, and then you just kind of laugh and it it
44:50
goes all these thoughts, they just sort of drift away, right.
44:53
So that's that's what meditation has added for me is like this
44:55
whole other layer of being able to observe consciousness and
45:00
reality. And now, and one of the coolest
45:02
things about what you're talking about is this moment right now
45:07
has never existed before. It's.
45:10
It's pretty cool, to your point, right?
45:11
And then, now, now. This moment has never existed
45:14
before. Right this.
45:15
Is a new moment and we don't know what's going to happen
45:17
next. You know, it's, it's cool when
45:19
you think about it that way. So you mentioned like a little
45:26
bit about your essentials in recovery.
45:31
Has it changed since since you came in in terms of daily
45:35
practices and and what you do now?
45:39
So like has? Yeah, absolutely.
45:43
Your routine. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
45:45
It's changed like like for the first say six months of my
45:49
recovery, I like that just recovery alone was my job.
45:55
Like that was full time, full time job, you know, I stepped
45:58
away from work and even from, you know, family and that was
46:04
scary because like I, you know, to just sort of leave this
46:08
privilege in your life of security.
46:10
You know, I didn't have a lot over me in terms of that
46:15
responsibility financially, but it, it was it, it was, it was a
46:22
tough decision. It was scary to do.
46:24
It took time to work up to that place of courage where I could
46:31
step out into the unknown. And when I did, things started
46:41
working that I couldn't explain. Like doors would open that were
46:48
closed, you know, and things happened at such a rapid pace in
46:54
my life that I thought would take a long time to to happen.
46:58
Like, and it was by just not having anything other than
47:04
building a strong foundation in, in recovery.
47:09
And I'm thankful that I did that, that I'm that that six
47:14
months was dedicated to that in my life.
47:20
It's something that is, it's, it's a lot of people don't get,
47:25
get that opportunity, you know, and, or, or see life that way
47:31
that that's essential. You know, I didn't, but I
47:37
started to just become comfortable in, in recovery and,
47:42
and in healing and in personal growth and, and, you know,
47:48
seeking those things out and, and just learning, learning
47:52
myself, learning me, you know, how I'm seen in the world, you
47:56
know, and, and being open to feedback, you know, having that
48:02
vulnerability because that allowed me to become my, my
48:09
biggest champion and cheerleader and to back me and realize that
48:16
I, I got me for the first time feeling that like I, I, I can
48:22
hold space for me and, and not lose myself in supporting
48:31
others. Something that has happened in
48:33
the for me in the past is, you know, my, by, by showing up for
48:42
others, I and, and neglecting myself.
48:47
It's really taken from me, you know, and there wasn't much left
48:57
for others like and I, I reached a place where I was pouring from
49:00
an empty cup, you know, just completely depleted.
49:04
So by by that, taking that time to pour into myself and heal it,
49:13
it, it provided A runway for me where I was able to get some
49:21
momentum in my recovery and start to see some positive
49:26
things happening. It was like a ripple, you know,
49:28
just little by little, step by step, seed by seed, planting and
49:33
planting and watering and having that patience and trusting in
49:36
the process you. Know, yeah, and, and to your
49:38
point earlier you, you mentioned the gratification thing.
49:41
It's like if you can do that long enough and it's different
49:44
for everybody, right People, how long does that take to start?
49:46
You know, see, seeing the the rewards of your recovery or the
49:50
promises or whatever, if you can stay around long enough where
49:52
you start to get a few of those things back, the momentum builds
49:58
and then it just trust the process.
49:59
I love, you know, writing that down to next to everything.
50:02
If I am all of these things and then I trust the process, it'll
50:07
work out. Not, not in my time and not the
50:09
way I want it to, but I'm going to get everything I need, you
50:12
know, honesty, humility. And then, well, this doesn't
50:15
feel good right now. Just like I've been honest in
50:18
for three days in a row now and I've lost my job or I, you know
50:21
what I mean? But it's like, dude, just trust
50:23
the, there's a, something else is coming.
50:25
You know, trust the process, right?
50:26
When one window closes, another door opens, or whatever that,
50:30
that that phrase is for that saying.
50:32
I love it, though. I know that community is a big
50:36
part in your recovery today and connection with fellowship of
50:39
other people. This one comes up a lot boredom
50:42
in recovery, right? How do you deal with fun?
50:45
Like how do you have fun? That's, I think that's, I think
50:48
since I've been on social media and, and being out loud,
50:52
recovering out loud unplugged the old podcast.
50:56
But it's true. Like since I've been talking
50:58
about this and getting feedback from others, that seems to be #1
51:02
every single time I relapse because I'm bored.
51:04
I was taught by my therapist that boredom is fear, and fear
51:08
is this is my life now, right? So how do you have fun in
51:12
recovery? How did you combat that that
51:14
boredom community? Yeah, that's a really good
51:17
question. And that was probably one of the
51:20
things that held me back from sobriety for a long time was
51:23
like it looked from my perspective that was boring, you
51:26
know, because for me that excitement and dopamine came
51:30
from using substances. So I developed a new baseline of
51:38
finding joy in simple things. So what would bring pleasure in
51:46
the past made it been really extreme.
51:48
And now it became by being present something simple like
51:53
the wings of a butterfly, a blue sky, you know, a a bee on roses.
51:59
I started to take and notice really simple things that were
52:04
small and present. You know, like I bought a
52:08
succulent and like it fell off and it was just this perfect bud
52:13
of a plant and it like just looked beautiful.
52:17
And I would have discarded that moment in the past of noticing.
52:24
So what became fun was having presents like noticing moments
52:36
in life and taking joy in seeing other people's joy, right.
52:45
So, yeah, also I, I started to explore different hobbies, you
52:54
know, I started to, you know, try things that had gone as, you
52:59
know, something I'd like to do for one day.
53:01
Those one days stopped being one day and started being today,
53:05
right? I started, you know, getting
53:09
into art, exploring art, you know, and journaling, you know,
53:16
writing out what was important, what I were goals, what were
53:25
just like documenting my life. That journaling was also a a, a
53:29
routine that and a ritual that really helped to provide some
53:34
consistency. And it was a reference point as
53:37
well. So I could look back and be
53:39
like, oh, yeah, this has happened at this point.
53:41
And this is what you know, this was the win from then and or
53:47
this is what you need to follow up on that you was it was a goal
53:51
that still has gone unmet. And because everything was up my
53:55
head before. And so now to get some of my
53:59
head out of my head and into, you know, the the the my words
54:05
and my voice to come, my pen to write my thoughts, to expand and
54:11
explore my creativity. Like fun became being present in
54:18
my life. That became fun and doing things
54:22
with other people that like in sobriety, like having a a beach
54:28
party, you know, for the like that was something that I
54:32
thought would be difficult. You know, like once the warm
54:34
weather comes, like, how am I going to have fun?
54:37
Yeah, like, you know, summertime like was, but there was organ
54:42
like gatherings. I went to that in in sobriety
54:45
with people that were in recovery and we had a blast.
54:49
I had more, I had so much more fun than I ever did in the past.
54:53
Like that was actually fun. And I didn't, it didn't come
54:56
with any type of shame or regret or hangover, hangover or just
55:01
forgetting details like. So being able to document my own
55:07
life and showing up in my life was fun.
55:11
Yeah, I, I, yeah, you you said exactly what I always try to
55:15
preach and it's it's not sexy, right?
55:17
It doesn't sound sexy, but it's so true.
55:20
Is your idea of fun will change. It's it's really that simple.
55:24
You know, when you come in, it just it just your your baseline.
55:28
You said it so that your baseline changes your idea of
55:30
fun. And yeah, I mean, I living in
55:34
Toronto can be stressful at times with the amount of people
55:37
and congestion and lack of space.
55:44
But in the summer, there's so much to do.
55:46
And, and my wife was a big part of a proponent of showing me
55:49
that, right? Going to the islands, going to
55:52
the beaches, there's lots of beaches.
55:53
It's like I didn't, I didn't know any of this stuff existed
55:55
because I was stuck on the patio drinking.
55:57
And that was my idea of fun, right?
55:59
Was being boxed in by 4 walls, right?
56:02
You know, I didn't do anything that I worth talking about.
56:05
You know what I mean? Right.
56:07
Like even in the winter too, we go snowboarding now is like I
56:12
that wasn't I didn't even want to get out of bed to do that
56:14
before right. So it's beautiful.
56:16
I mean there's we are not a glum lot.
56:18
There's a find your people, find your community.
56:22
You can't do this thing alone. You gotta you gotta do it with
56:24
other. That's the other thing too.
56:25
When you see other people sober having fun, it really adds a
56:28
level of comfort too. Yes, you know.
56:32
Yeah, that's true. Because I, I would see that on
56:36
people's faces that had, you know, 13 years of sobriety.
56:39
They're just glowing and there there's just this peace and joy
56:44
and contentment and, and presence and you can see their
56:49
life. That's the best example.
56:52
That's the best sort of sort of verification that this works is
56:59
the lived experiences of people doing it and the example that
57:04
they set out. So it was seeing other people
57:08
and how their lives have benefited and the life that
57:11
they're living, the growth that they've gone through that.
57:16
That's what helped to encourage me to be consistent in it And
57:22
and to because there's days where you, your, your life isn't
57:26
looking like that, right? But just knowing that it's the
57:30
possibility that it could, but I know that it won't look like
57:35
that if I do some other things in my life, if I make poor
57:40
decisions, if I'm using, if I'm like, disconnecting and
57:44
detaching from my reality and yeah, escaping.
57:52
And just because it was just existing, I wasn't really
57:54
living. I was just existing, you know,
57:57
and I was maybe present physically, but I was really in
58:04
a different space in my head. Yeah, to your point, either in
58:08
the past or the future, for me, it was like a actually in today,
58:12
I'd say I live a lot too much in the future.
58:14
But in active addiction, there's a lot of living in the past too.
58:17
There's a lot of future, but there's also a lot of why did I
58:19
do that? You know, I'm I'm going to just
58:21
use and make this all go away, man, it's so well said.
58:25
Let's end with this. I got a lot of it today.
58:28
I appreciate it and thanks for coming down.
58:30
But if you could say something to your early recovery self,
58:35
what do you think you would say? You're doing great.
58:42
It will keep getting better. Be consistent and be kind to
58:47
yourself. Be really kind and and have
58:50
grace for yourself because you've come through a lot and
58:54
you've done amazing and you survived.
58:57
You're still here and it will be better.
59:04
Thanks, Jamie. Appreciate you man.
59:06
Appreciate you too. Thanks for having me.
59:08
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59:14
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59:16
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59:19
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59:32
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