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Selects: How Hate Works · Stuff You Should Know

0:00
Speaker 1: Hi Friends. Is Charles W. Chuck Bryant here, your friendly
0:04
Speaker 1: neighborhood podcaster setting up this week's Saturday Selects episode and
0:09
Speaker 1: this week everybody, I picked that episode all about hate. Oh,
0:14
Speaker 1: I hate this, hate it when people do that, hate
0:17
Speaker 1: it when that happens. You probably say that stuff a lot.
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Speaker 1: But what does hate really mean? What is it the
0:22
Speaker 1: core of hate? And what does it mean for the
0:24
Speaker 1: world in our community? Well, we talk about all that
0:26
Speaker 1: stuff in this episode from how hate works. Welcome to
0:38
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey,
0:47
Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me
0:50
Speaker 1: is always the chipper and cheerful Charles W. Chuck Bryant, Man,
0:54
Speaker 1: I'm going ten different directions, buddy. Yeah, I'm a little
0:58
Speaker 1: screwy are Yeah, we'll focus on this one. Okay, okay,
1:03
Speaker 1: because we're going on in one direction, and that's hate.
1:05
Speaker 1: I hate to focus. Okay. You hate broccoli. I do
1:10
Speaker 1: hate broccoli, and you know that. I also hate peas,
1:13
Speaker 1: like split peas. I remember declaring um as a child
1:16
Speaker 1: that peas are some of my most hated enemies. I
1:19
Speaker 1: think a lot of kids don't like peas because they're mushy. Yeah,
1:23
Speaker 1: well that's the problem with all vegetables really, they're mushy.
1:25
Speaker 1: They're overcooked if you cook something. No, I've had pretty
1:29
Speaker 1: nasty broccoli. But BROCCOLI's all that's separate. It's just disgusting
1:34
Speaker 1: in every single way. But cream spinach, I love that.
1:37
Speaker 1: It's awesome. Yeah, that's good stuff. You and I shared
1:40
Speaker 1: a cream spinach at Morton steak Has recently, like two ladies. Yeah,
1:44
Speaker 1: it was something we couldn't even finish. It was so rich.
1:47
Speaker 1: It was really good, So chuck. We don't hate cream spinach.
1:50
Speaker 1: I hate broccoli and um. One of the things I
1:53
Speaker 1: hate more than anything else is not having an intro,
1:56
Speaker 1: which I don't because I was looking online and strangely
2:02
Speaker 1: they're The online world is a repository for hate in
2:06
Speaker 1: a certain way, as in like um, neo Nazi punk
2:10
Speaker 1: bands not pants huh. This article calls it pop music, yeah, um,
2:17
Speaker 1: or you know Facebook groups dedicated to hate, like you know,
2:21
Speaker 1: Holocaust denial and that kind of stuff. Sure, um, but
2:25
Speaker 1: this word is so ubiquitous in our culture that there
2:29
Speaker 1: was nothing there. Like I found a guy um and
2:31
Speaker 1: dairy and mass who was accused of hate crime. Um,
2:35
Speaker 1: everybody wants to know why, Um, Cleveland fans hate Lebron
2:40
Speaker 1: I can answer that, But I mean, like, we throw
2:43
Speaker 1: this word around like the you know, some reality TV
2:47
Speaker 1: series was the show you love to hate? Right, Um,
2:51
Speaker 1: we we use this word a lot. But yeah, I
2:54
Speaker 1: found a study out of the University of Texas that
2:57
Speaker 1: that asked people how often they hate it, and um,
3:02
Speaker 1: nobody said every day. It's not an everyday thing. So
3:05
Speaker 1: like we we hate things like broccoli, but we also
3:08
Speaker 1: realized that there's a real distinction between hating something and
3:12
Speaker 1: experiencing actual hate. You hit it on the head, and
3:17
Speaker 1: this is a pretty old distinction, right, Like, like philosophers
3:21
Speaker 1: have have been aware of this before. I think Aristotle
3:24
Speaker 1: was pretty sure he hated peas, but he really hated
3:28
Speaker 1: him Lock. Yeah, he and he's not Webster, so I
3:31
Speaker 1: will read his definition because he's Aristotle. Yeah, he said
3:35
Speaker 1: it was a dislike for someone based on our negative
3:38
Speaker 1: perception of that person's nature that is so intense that
3:42
Speaker 1: whoever feels it wants to cause real harm to another,
3:45
Speaker 1: Like I really want to harm you. Yeah, So that's
3:48
Speaker 1: the difference. Like Pete, like you said, people throw that
3:50
Speaker 1: word around. I hate broccoli. But you're not going to
3:52
Speaker 1: go out and try and burn down broccoli farms. No,
3:56
Speaker 1: I know that's silly. I'm not gonna go burn down
4:00
Speaker 1: be BROCCOLI's family's broccoli farm that was used to fund
4:04
Speaker 1: the James Bond movies. But Josh, I think, and this
4:06
Speaker 1: is me surmising in my own personal purview, I think
4:10
Speaker 1: there are kind of two types of hate, well three
4:13
Speaker 1: types really. Then one type that you just throw the
4:15
Speaker 1: word around like I hate that show, I hate broccoli.
4:17
Speaker 1: One that is real hate, which I think is fear
4:20
Speaker 1: based when you don't know someone personally or a group personally,
4:25
Speaker 1: where you hate a group of people. And then there's
4:30
Speaker 1: like the anger retribution based hate, like someone personally has
4:35
Speaker 1: wronged you so badly that you hate them and and
4:39
Speaker 1: cause and either want to cause or which ill upon them. Right, Well,
4:43
Speaker 1: you just brought up a huge can of worms by
4:46
Speaker 1: using the word anger. Like there's a real debate over
4:49
Speaker 1: whether hate and anger are the same thing, right right.
4:53
Speaker 1: They say they're not. It depends on who you talk to.
4:56
Speaker 1: But the people who say they're not say things like, um,
4:59
Speaker 1: hate is is brought on by humiliation or ill treatment
5:04
Speaker 1: or being devalued where anger is brought on when you're
5:07
Speaker 1: when you're treated UM in a way that you consider unfairly. Right. Right,
5:13
Speaker 1: anger is the result of UM not having any recourse,
5:19
Speaker 1: right frustration perhaps coupled with that, right and that that
5:22
Speaker 1: kind of dances along the border because people who hate,
5:26
Speaker 1: you know, other groups often are frustrated, Like when we
5:30
Speaker 1: talked about the fascism and the Fascism podcast, getting um
5:34
Speaker 1: getting groups all riled up against a scapegoat, is one
5:38
Speaker 1: of the tenets of fascism, right, And so these people
5:42
Speaker 1: are frustrated at their lot in life, their unemployment high
5:45
Speaker 1: because of the Jews or something like that, Right, But
5:48
Speaker 1: really they're not. They're they're angry about their job while
5:53
Speaker 1: they hate the Jews. So the two are really intertwined.
5:56
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of people think if you look
5:59
Speaker 1: at them deeply enough to not one and the same, right, Well,
6:01
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times I kind of hate
6:03
Speaker 1: has displaced anger and frustration at your own you know,
6:06
Speaker 1: a lot like what we're saying. Yeah, but there is
6:08
Speaker 1: there is also a very um strong physiological basis to
6:13
Speaker 1: it as well. I Mean, it's an emotion supposedly, although
6:17
Speaker 1: it's not one of the basic emotions anger is yeah,
6:20
Speaker 1: what are the basic emotions? Anger? Joy, fear, disgusted, and peckishness.
6:31
Speaker 1: I thought it was joy, pain, sunshine and rain. No,
6:36
Speaker 1: who's that Rob Base? No? I can't remember. I could
6:39
Speaker 1: sing it, but I can't remember sing it. No, no, no,
6:42
Speaker 1: I think it's Rob Base. No it was. It was
6:45
Speaker 1: a duo. Oh no, no, I'm thinking of I Want money,
6:48
Speaker 1: lots and lots of money. That was a duo to
6:52
Speaker 1: be Rich? Remember that stupid song? Yeah, kind of. They
6:55
Speaker 1: wrote a song about being rich. Oh yeah, how great
6:57
Speaker 1: it was, and that was their only song. So unless
6:59
Speaker 1: they were already rich than they never were from that song,
7:04
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Yeah, it does just blew my mind, buddy.
7:08
Speaker 1: So do you hate that song? Uh? I do now
7:11
Speaker 1: because it's in my head. So Chuck, What is this
7:15
Speaker 1: um physiological basis of anger? Well, it's pointed out in
7:19
Speaker 1: the article within an Iron Maiden song, which I thought
7:23
Speaker 1: was an odd choice. There's a thin line between love
7:25
Speaker 1: and hate. Yeah, it's like there's a whole other song
7:30
Speaker 1: called There's a thin Line between Love and Hate. Well,
7:32
Speaker 1: there's a much more popular song, I think the Persuaders,
7:35
Speaker 1: which was it's a thin line between love and hate
7:37
Speaker 1: the old Motown song. Right, have you ever heard the
7:41
Speaker 1: Pretender's version of it? No, it's hands down the greatest
7:45
Speaker 1: version ever. Really is a thin between love and Hey,
7:50
Speaker 1: the Pretenders covered the Persuaders. Yep, all right, I'm telling
7:53
Speaker 1: you all right. So apparently Iron Maiden actually listen to
7:55
Speaker 1: that song on YouTube the other day and it's a
7:57
Speaker 1: it's an Iron Maiden song. Yeah no, I looked it
7:59
Speaker 1: up to make sure that Iron maidenheadn't covered the Persuaders,
8:03
Speaker 1: and uh no, Bruce Dickinson came up with his own lyrics,
8:05
Speaker 1: his own version. He's like, that one's fine, I'm doing
8:08
Speaker 1: this one. That's right. So the point of all this, Josh,
8:11
Speaker 1: is that there is a thin line between love and
8:13
Speaker 1: hate as far as uh the brain goes. Because um,
8:16
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, there was a study at
8:18
Speaker 1: the University College of London and that's in the UK,
8:22
Speaker 1: and um, they got seventeen people, not very wide ranging.
8:26
Speaker 1: I had a lot of problems with this study, but
8:29
Speaker 1: they got seventeen people who said they hated someone else.
8:33
Speaker 1: Maybe that's why they Maybe I have a hard time
8:34
Speaker 1: finding someone who hates someone else. Maybe not because I
8:39
Speaker 1: don't hate anyone. I was about to ask you that. Well,
8:42
Speaker 1: we'll get to the personal stuff in a minute. OK.
8:45
Speaker 1: So this study, what they did was they found seventeen
8:47
Speaker 1: people who hated someone else, threw him under the old
8:50
Speaker 1: wonder machine and looked, showed him pictures of the people
8:54
Speaker 1: they hated, which to record the results. I guess they're like,
8:59
Speaker 1: you need to bring picture the people you hate for
9:01
Speaker 1: the study. Yeah, they could have just said think of
9:02
Speaker 1: the person you hate, I think, and it would achieve
9:04
Speaker 1: the same goal, I guess. So anyway, they what they
9:07
Speaker 1: found out was that a couple of regions in the
9:10
Speaker 1: brain there's like a hate circuit. They call it there
9:13
Speaker 1: the pudaminta and the Jerry laughed at that, and the
9:19
Speaker 1: insular cortex in both fired up with pictures of people
9:25
Speaker 1: that they hated, right, And the significance of this is
9:28
Speaker 1: that both of those regions also fire up when you
9:31
Speaker 1: see a picture or think about someone you love, which
9:34
Speaker 1: is the longest way to say, it's a thin line
9:37
Speaker 1: between lemon hate, right, and I think everybody kind of
9:39
Speaker 1: senses that it's like um when passions flaring are it's
9:47
Speaker 1: virtually the same thing. There are two sides of one coin.
9:50
Speaker 1: In my opinion, if you truly hate somebody, the real
9:54
Speaker 1: hate to fear is not one where somebody's like, oh
9:56
Speaker 1: I hate you so much, you know, because that that
10:00
Speaker 1: can be turned. That means that they have some sort
10:02
Speaker 1: of emotional connection to you. The one to be afraid
10:06
Speaker 1: of is the detached, calm, cool kind of hatred, because
10:11
Speaker 1: that's the one where you end up dead somewhere, Like
10:15
Speaker 1: I'm the Green River killer and I hate prostitutes. Well,
10:18
Speaker 1: that brings up an interesting sidebar, right, Um, do serial
10:23
Speaker 1: killers hate their victims? No? End of side bar. Well
10:29
Speaker 1: that they have long said that serial killers don't experience
10:32
Speaker 1: emotion on that scale, but they're starting to uh to
10:36
Speaker 1: change their thinking in certain cases because a lot of
10:39
Speaker 1: serial killers suffer from antisocial personality disorder, and people who
10:43
Speaker 1: suffer from that experience a range of emotions. So it's
10:47
Speaker 1: not always I think it's it's both. You know that
10:50
Speaker 1: not you can't say every serial killer is the same. Well,
10:53
Speaker 1: they've been saying that for a long time. They've been
10:55
Speaker 1: trying to find the threads that connect them. And I
10:58
Speaker 1: told you about the sociologists talked to. He was just
11:01
Speaker 1: really up in arms that psychology has spent four decades
11:04
Speaker 1: or so looking at serial killers, and the best they
11:06
Speaker 1: come up with as any personal any social personality disorder.
11:10
Speaker 1: He's like, of course they have a personality disorder, they're
11:13
Speaker 1: serial killers. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. So back
11:16
Speaker 1: to that study though about the brain and the difference
11:18
Speaker 1: between love and hate. Um, they did see. Um a difference,
11:22
Speaker 1: a key difference because the areas of the frontal cortex
11:25
Speaker 1: associated with judgment and critical thinking become less active when
11:30
Speaker 1: you see someone you love on the f m R
11:32
Speaker 1: I machine, But when you saw someone you hate, most
11:36
Speaker 1: of your frontal cortex cortex cortex is active, remains active. Yeah,
11:42
Speaker 1: so that's a big difference. But that makes sense as well, Chuck,
11:44
Speaker 1: because I mean, if you see I know, you don't
11:46
Speaker 1: hate anybody, so you wouldn't understand this. But when you
11:50
Speaker 1: see someone you hate, you like it's a personality law.
11:52
Speaker 1: You just you you you tend to criticize them in
11:57
Speaker 1: your head, like, oh, you're wearing that swear. You look
12:00
Speaker 1: so fat and stupid in that sweater. I hope you
12:03
Speaker 1: somehow get did you strangle yourself on that sweater? Yeah?
12:07
Speaker 1: So the point is that it takes like hatred as
12:08
Speaker 1: an active thing. It's an active rumination on this. It's
12:12
Speaker 1: not a knee jerk thing like when you might see
12:15
Speaker 1: a picture of someone you love. All right, So that's interesting, right,
12:18
Speaker 1: that's what that study came up with, the seven of
12:21
Speaker 1: the seventeen people. Yeah, with this, Yeah, it couldn't get
12:26
Speaker 1: you know. And the other problem is, I'm sure they
12:28
Speaker 1: were um weird western educated, uh deed something rich and developed?
12:37
Speaker 1: Care what the ice stands for? And what would you
12:40
Speaker 1: just spell weird? It's basically like the idea that all
12:44
Speaker 1: of these studies that sited are cited a lot of
12:47
Speaker 1: them are They're just college kids. So it's like this
12:51
Speaker 1: really narrow niche of the human population that they extrapolate onto. Ye.
12:57
Speaker 1: Good point, and in this case they just use seventeen
12:59
Speaker 1: of them. Well, we're here to report it and then
13:02
Speaker 1: criticize it, and we're done. We did both, that's right. Uh.
13:06
Speaker 1: What what's the deal with like old hate though? Like
13:09
Speaker 1: don't they have some inclination of like early hate with
13:12
Speaker 1: Caveman and the like? Well, yeah, because parts of the
13:16
Speaker 1: you know, the closer to the center or the brain
13:20
Speaker 1: stem that you get in the brain, the more ancient
13:22
Speaker 1: that part of the brain is, and if there's a
13:24
Speaker 1: region like the putamen that's associated with a certain thing
13:29
Speaker 1: e g. Hate, then that means that hate's been around
13:32
Speaker 1: for a very long time because they are part of
13:35
Speaker 1: the brain. UH has been able to carry out that
13:39
Speaker 1: function for this song or should ostensibly got you right,
13:42
Speaker 1: But then it's also new with the prefrontal cortex, which
13:45
Speaker 1: is a fairly newer um aspect. So maybe we just hated,
13:48
Speaker 1: but we didn't criticize. We just hated. And they think
13:52
Speaker 1: possibly that we developed hate as a species or a
13:57
Speaker 1: capacity to hate as a serve love, a mechanism way
14:01
Speaker 1: back in hunter gatherer days where we could feel justified
14:06
Speaker 1: by say, taking food from another group because we hated him,
14:12
Speaker 1: which I actually found pretty that's a pretty inspiring idea. Yeah,
14:17
Speaker 1: that you had to work up hate enough to go
14:19
Speaker 1: in pillage. Yes, Okay, I think that's kind of neat
14:22
Speaker 1: because it makes it seem like we aren't naturally hateful beings,
14:28
Speaker 1: and I don't think we are. I believe everybody has hate,
14:32
Speaker 1: and everyone has a vast capacity to hate, but I
14:35
Speaker 1: don't I wouldn't characterize this as generally hateful. That's good.
14:40
Speaker 1: I'm kind of surprised here you say that it's true though? Alright, so, uh,
15:05
Speaker 1: it's in the Bible, Josh, It's an ancient text all
15:08
Speaker 1: over the place. Hate's been around a long time. M Right.
15:11
Speaker 1: Are we gonna talk about Carthage? Yeah, because I know
15:15
Speaker 1: you love this, the Carthaginian general, Hannibal Carthaginian, and you
15:20
Speaker 1: gotta stop that. Hannibal pledged to his father, Dad, I
15:26
Speaker 1: hate Rome, I hate Romans. I don't like the Italians.
15:29
Speaker 1: I hate them forever, and I will swear retribution because
15:33
Speaker 1: they have seized our provinces. He said, father, yes, son,
15:37
Speaker 1: I'm going to kill the Romans. And he did. He
15:40
Speaker 1: made good on that, invaded Italy and did quite a
15:42
Speaker 1: bit of damage. Of course, the Romans fired back because
15:45
Speaker 1: they hate the Carthage. Why can't I say that word?
15:48
Speaker 1: They hated people from Carthage and uh, in one PC
15:54
Speaker 1: they did some pretty bad things like burning them in
15:57
Speaker 1: their houses while they screamed. But is that hate? Like,
16:02
Speaker 1: I don't know, And that's a I think that's an
16:04
Speaker 1: issue that I have um here there with this is
16:07
Speaker 1: that there that's kind of a jump to conclusion, like
16:12
Speaker 1: is it hate? I don't know? It does hate? Form
16:15
Speaker 1: the basis for war or horrible acts in war. Well,
16:19
Speaker 1: I don't know, because it's it's condemned pretty much in
16:22
Speaker 1: like the New Testament in the Bible, it's condemned in
16:24
Speaker 1: the Koran. Uh, let not hatred of the people incite
16:28
Speaker 1: you not to act equitably. And in uh medieval and
16:32
Speaker 1: Renaissance Europe you came up in you. But in Italy
16:36
Speaker 1: they came up with the vendetta, which is uh very
16:40
Speaker 1: much retribution for hatred. There you go. I I let's see,
16:45
Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. Like I think, let's say a
16:46
Speaker 1: Roman soldier comes to your town while you're away using
16:51
Speaker 1: the the latrine pit that your village has dug, and
16:57
Speaker 1: they burn your family alive in your house while you're
16:59
Speaker 1: using the bathroom. And you come back and you see
17:02
Speaker 1: the Roman legions going away and your family is dead,
17:06
Speaker 1: burned to crisps. Right. Um. I don't think the Romans
17:10
Speaker 1: necessarily felt hatred to commit that act, but that act
17:16
Speaker 1: would incite hatred in the person that it befell. So
17:20
Speaker 1: I think of vendetta is an excellent example of hatred.
17:24
Speaker 1: Because somebody done, you're wrong, and you're gonna get back
17:29
Speaker 1: at them. Or they did something to your father or
17:31
Speaker 1: something you The vendetta is very long lasting from what
17:34
Speaker 1: I understand. Yeah, and it's not. I mean, this is
17:37
Speaker 1: obviously we're talking about mafia vendetta's and war vendetta's, but
17:41
Speaker 1: it can happen on a smaller level. You might not
17:43
Speaker 1: think of it as vendetta though, But if someone done
17:45
Speaker 1: you really wrong and you're like, I'm gonna get that
17:48
Speaker 1: person back by doing this in six months when they
17:53
Speaker 1: least expect it, that's a vendetta. Yeah, but you you
17:56
Speaker 1: don't call it a vendetta. It's just uh, well, in
18:00
Speaker 1: in Italy, they it's just come up in sir um,
18:03
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get you suck a Yeah, bad people do
18:07
Speaker 1: that though. There was a word for it though in
18:09
Speaker 1: medieval and Renaissance Europe, in the mess yeah, which is
18:14
Speaker 1: Latin for un friendship. It was a legal term for
18:17
Speaker 1: hating somebody. Okay, So what we've done is established that
18:20
Speaker 1: hatred is definitely a thing that's been around a long time.
18:24
Speaker 1: Is that what we've done? Yeah, and chuck, of course
18:27
Speaker 1: it's still around, um in recent modern history. There's other
18:32
Speaker 1: examples that we could go into, like hate groups. Yeah, well,
18:38
Speaker 1: let's talk about the Nazis real quick, because again we
18:40
Speaker 1: talked about fascism and one of the tenets of it being, um,
18:45
Speaker 1: I guess inciting other group to hate. Yeah, group hate.
18:51
Speaker 1: That's that's where we are for sure, and a lot
18:53
Speaker 1: of that. That gave a lot of a body of
18:56
Speaker 1: data for people to study, and that they're still studying.
19:00
Speaker 1: But um one guy in particular named Martin Oppenheimer, who
19:03
Speaker 1: is a sociologist from Rutgers University. UM it was basically said, like, look,
19:09
Speaker 1: the Nazis are proof positive that you can, number one,
19:12
Speaker 1: get an entire group to hate another group, and that
19:17
Speaker 1: you do this by um identifying and exploiting the group
19:22
Speaker 1: that you're with their frustrations, say unemployment, joblessness, and then
19:27
Speaker 1: basically saying those are the people who are at fault.
19:30
Speaker 1: That's how you start the pot exactly. That's how you
19:33
Speaker 1: incite hatred, which is gotta be one of the worst
19:35
Speaker 1: things you can do. One of the worst non violent
19:37
Speaker 1: acts I think a person commit is insite hatred. Yeah,
19:41
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah. And also I thought what came to
19:43
Speaker 1: mind to me when I was reading this was some
19:46
Speaker 1: of these same tactics, like a marginalized people people who
19:50
Speaker 1: are insecure, who are seeking safety somewhere. It's also the
19:55
Speaker 1: kind of the same thing they do with the cults
19:57
Speaker 1: and the brainwashing. They're seeking out these same types of
20:00
Speaker 1: people and saying, hey, you feel marginalized, you feel like
20:02
Speaker 1: you're not loved, you need a safe haven. But they're
20:05
Speaker 1: not saying go hate someone else. They're saying, just come
20:09
Speaker 1: and be with our group. Well, our our association of
20:12
Speaker 1: like in group and out group is like this emotional
20:16
Speaker 1: psychological razor blade that can be exploited in any number
20:20
Speaker 1: of ways exactly, you know, but it's always a marginalized people.
20:24
Speaker 1: It seems like, yeah, yeah, or there, But you mean
20:28
Speaker 1: the people who are stirred, who have hatred stirred up
20:30
Speaker 1: in them. Yeah, or go join a cult or something
20:34
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, you mean teenagers and uh well, as
20:38
Speaker 1: Stanford study in two thousand and ten basically said, hey,
20:41
Speaker 1: if you want to um teach teenagers to hate, here's
20:44
Speaker 1: how you do it. You can't just overtly say go
20:48
Speaker 1: hate this group, you know, hate Muslims, hate black people,
20:53
Speaker 1: hate Jewish people, hate gays. You can't just say that
20:57
Speaker 1: it's not good enough. But if you tell us story
21:01
Speaker 1: that basically implies this is these are people you should
21:06
Speaker 1: hate and here's why, right, like um, homosexuals or Petter asks,
21:11
Speaker 1: and so you know you can't let them into certain groups.
21:15
Speaker 1: And by the way, you should hate them because of
21:18
Speaker 1: the story. Right then, I think that I had a
21:23
Speaker 1: problem with that one because it was like, that's true
21:25
Speaker 1: for everything. If you tell the story, it's gonna hit
21:28
Speaker 1: home or personally into somebody. Yeah, you can't say, hey,
21:30
Speaker 1: go love uh Sea Biscuit because he ran a horse
21:35
Speaker 1: race that was pretty neat. But if you tell the
21:37
Speaker 1: story of Sea Biscuit, all of a sudden, you're gonna
21:39
Speaker 1: leave that thing going. Man, I'm getting my butt to
21:41
Speaker 1: the Kentucky Derby next year because I love me some
21:44
Speaker 1: horse racing. I love Sea Biscuit. See you saw the movie, right, No,
21:48
Speaker 1: I didn't um the But the funny thing is is
21:52
Speaker 1: that that whole that study made the careers of two
21:55
Speaker 1: standard researchers so right. But they do have a point
21:58
Speaker 1: because they point out in this article or I don't,
22:00
Speaker 1: but we do. Um D W. Griffith's awful um movie
22:05
Speaker 1: awful on content. Birth of a Nation from nineteen fifteen.
22:09
Speaker 1: It's no Sea Biscuit. It's no sea biscuit. But it
22:12
Speaker 1: did a really good job of getting people to hate
22:15
Speaker 1: black people in the United States. Yeah, it doesn't it
22:18
Speaker 1: feature like the well, since it was nineteen fifteen, it
22:21
Speaker 1: is like the first and everything. But it's like the
22:23
Speaker 1: first on screen rape, uh or implied rape. There was
22:28
Speaker 1: a rape of a white woman by like an escaped slave,
22:31
Speaker 1: I think by a white actor in black face of
22:34
Speaker 1: course at the time, and um, it was a big,
22:37
Speaker 1: huge movie. It grows ten million dollars in nineteen fifteen.
22:41
Speaker 1: That's like that's two that's two sixteen million dollars today
22:46
Speaker 1: is what grows. Yeah. And it was based on a play, Yeah,
22:50
Speaker 1: it is. It is based on a play in a
22:52
Speaker 1: book called The Klansman. And d W. Griffith felt so
22:56
Speaker 1: bad about this afterward that he made a follow up
23:00
Speaker 1: film that you're called Intolerance, which was a three hour
23:03
Speaker 1: silent film meditation on four parallel stories of man's intolerance
23:10
Speaker 1: throughout history. Oh, I didn't know he did that. That's good, Yeah,
23:14
Speaker 1: because I want to like the W. Griffith. Yeah, I
23:17
Speaker 1: mean he didn't write Birth of the Nation, so he
23:21
Speaker 1: directed it. Not like getting him off the hook or anything.
23:24
Speaker 1: But I think at the time. He was just trying
23:26
Speaker 1: to make a movie that sold a lot of tickets
23:29
Speaker 1: and that was the way to do it. Yeah, that's
23:30
Speaker 1: the way to do it. And then the Nazi. Of course,
23:33
Speaker 1: anyone who saw Inglorious Bastards knows that Gebel's, Joseph Gebel's
23:40
Speaker 1: was in charge of, you know, the propaganda department with
23:42
Speaker 1: feature films, and they had one called Judge SEUs. Is
23:46
Speaker 1: it Judge or you'd probably it'd be yourd SEUs. So
23:50
Speaker 1: you're the one who speaks German. How did you say,
23:52
Speaker 1: Judd Seuss? I don't know. I was concentrating on the
23:55
Speaker 1: umlaut part and the SIUs. Okay, so yeah, be your sus.
23:59
Speaker 1: But that featured a main character, a Jewish main character
24:03
Speaker 1: who was shunned by a gentile woman and so he
24:06
Speaker 1: raped her, oh yeah, among other things, and it was
24:10
Speaker 1: required viewing for the Stormtroopers. Yeah, they loved it. And
24:14
Speaker 1: then they give him crystal meth. Really yeah, from what
24:18
Speaker 1: I understand, that'll do it. Um. And that didn't just
24:22
Speaker 1: go out with the Nazis. Um media has been playing
24:25
Speaker 1: like more and more of a role um among I
24:30
Speaker 1: guess hate groups, hatred as a as a concept and
24:33
Speaker 1: as a practice, right, Yeah, because um, I think in
24:39
Speaker 1: the nineties, Uh, Bosnian Serb TV showed UM something that's
24:44
Speaker 1: kind of referred to now as like a basically hate
24:47
Speaker 1: mongering UM series called Genocide that stirred up emotion against
24:52
Speaker 1: the Bosnian Muslims, right yeah. Uh and and uh, well
25:00
Speaker 1: you know what happened with that in the Balkan War. Yeah.
25:02
Speaker 1: Alqaed has done similar things on the web. Obviously, the
25:05
Speaker 1: web is a good place to to go try and
25:07
Speaker 1: get this thing done these days. And they had chat rooms,
25:11
Speaker 1: they have chat rooms with Facebook's becoming increasingly um available
25:16
Speaker 1: for people who have UM hate based ideologies. UM. And
25:21
Speaker 1: Facebook is like, look, we can't we can't do. I mean,
25:25
Speaker 1: we'll find them and shut them down and when we
25:27
Speaker 1: when we can, but like they're all over the place. Yeah. Um.
25:52
Speaker 1: And then uh also chuck pop music. Yeah, they called
25:57
Speaker 1: the pop music. And the reason I no, I can't
26:00
Speaker 1: call it pop music, it's because I've seen some of
26:03
Speaker 1: those specials and I saw really good when I can't
26:05
Speaker 1: remember on neo Nazis and they have you know, they
26:08
Speaker 1: have musical groups that are neo Nazi songs and they
26:13
Speaker 1: just sing about hating other people, and it's you know,
26:16
Speaker 1: it's aggressive music. It's not it's not pop music pop
26:19
Speaker 1: there's no sense. No, it's not handsome, So um chuck.
26:23
Speaker 1: The article begs a pretty um interesting question. I think,
26:27
Speaker 1: um is hate a mental illness? Because you know, don't
26:33
Speaker 1: you have to be slightly mentally ill to burn down
26:35
Speaker 1: a house with an entire family trapped inside? Or maybe
26:40
Speaker 1: you're just following orders? Okay, you know, excellent. I think
26:45
Speaker 1: you just hit upon it. Our understanding of hate is
26:49
Speaker 1: incomplete because our understanding of the things that we do
26:54
Speaker 1: that we associate with hate is also incomplete. Are you
26:59
Speaker 1: just following orders? Are you being whipped up into a
27:01
Speaker 1: mob mentality? Do you actually hate this other group because
27:05
Speaker 1: you lost your job? Or is this emotion just being
27:08
Speaker 1: exploited by someone else, a third party? Um? I I.
27:14
Speaker 1: And also I think our understanding of mental illness isn't
27:16
Speaker 1: refined enough to say yes, hates the product of a
27:19
Speaker 1: mental illness? Sure, because they referenced Um Hitler and Osama
27:22
Speaker 1: bin Laden as two people they suspect might have been
27:25
Speaker 1: mentally ill um or at least anti social, and they
27:30
Speaker 1: also referenced the Columbine shooters as one of them. Suffered
27:35
Speaker 1: from depression and they had these hate filled rants that
27:37
Speaker 1: they ended up finding And was there a link between
27:41
Speaker 1: that depression and hatred? Right? And I guess the the
27:45
Speaker 1: that begs the question like, did they were they so?
27:49
Speaker 1: Was Osama bin Laden and Hitler and Dylan Klebold like
27:52
Speaker 1: so wrapped up in hatred that they were crazy? Or
27:55
Speaker 1: where was um hatred a byproduct of, you know, any
28:00
Speaker 1: mental illness they may or may not have had. These
28:03
Speaker 1: are questions we don't know. But my whole idea that
28:06
Speaker 1: hatred is brought out when you are um mistreated by
28:12
Speaker 1: someone else is backed up by a two thousand study
28:16
Speaker 1: of people from Kosovo and those who have gone through
28:19
Speaker 1: the most trauma and stress hated the Serbian troops who'd
28:25
Speaker 1: um you know, borne that out on them more than
28:28
Speaker 1: other people who maybe had pleasant exchanges with Serbian troops.
28:32
Speaker 1: I guess that makes sense. Yeah, we gotta mention hate
28:35
Speaker 1: crimes and hate groups. Briefly. Hate crime is obviously a
28:39
Speaker 1: crime carried out against somebody based on their skin color,
28:43
Speaker 1: their ethnicity, their national origin, their gender, disability, sexual orientation
28:49
Speaker 1: is when you hear a lot about yeah, disabilities, a
28:51
Speaker 1: sad one because it took a while to um get
28:54
Speaker 1: that into hate crime bills. Oh really yeah, interesting, but
28:59
Speaker 1: the Congress is past legislation now that makes hate crimes
29:03
Speaker 1: more serious offenses than just like a regular assault. Well yeah,
29:07
Speaker 1: which is pretty awesome. Yeah, and how it should be.
29:10
Speaker 1: I remember, um, when the there was a child's safety
29:13
Speaker 1: law that was being passed in two thousand and six,
29:17
Speaker 1: and there was a hate crime language that was attached
29:21
Speaker 1: to it that made um, sexual orientation crimes hate crimes
29:28
Speaker 1: on a federal level, and there's a big outrage about
29:31
Speaker 1: it among religious groups. Do you remember that. I think
29:34
Speaker 1: they were like, wait, we have a First Amendment freedom
29:38
Speaker 1: to hate gay people as part of our religion. You know,
29:42
Speaker 1: so you're you're saying that that that in and of
29:45
Speaker 1: itself is is a hate crime by saying like, no,
29:49
Speaker 1: these people are wrong, homosexuality is bad, it's wrong, that
29:52
Speaker 1: kind of thing, um, And that they thought that that
29:55
Speaker 1: kind of infringed on there, which I don't think it does,
29:58
Speaker 1: but that was their argument for a while. I don't
30:00
Speaker 1: think it worked. Interesting. Uh, So I have a list
30:04
Speaker 1: here first, Josh. I know, we have a couple of
30:06
Speaker 1: more little stats um about hate groups since two thousand
30:10
Speaker 1: The Southern Poverty Law Center claims that the US hate
30:15
Speaker 1: groups in the US has grown by more than and
30:18
Speaker 1: since since two thousand. Yeah, and they had the top
30:22
Speaker 1: five states with the biggest concentrations of hate groups. And
30:26
Speaker 1: this one was continued on the next page. And when
30:28
Speaker 1: I was reading it, I was like, please, Georgia, don't
30:30
Speaker 1: be on there, Please don't be on there. And it's
30:33
Speaker 1: not And we will count them down from five to
30:36
Speaker 1: create suspense. Idaho is number five for hate groups. Evidently,
30:41
Speaker 1: Wyoming is number four. You got, Arkansas is number three,
30:45
Speaker 1: Mississippi is number two, two from the south, and then
30:49
Speaker 1: um number one according to the Southern Poverty Law Center
30:53
Speaker 1: is Montana. Yep, that's you know, Montana. Grab your guns, fellas. Yeah. Well,
30:59
Speaker 1: there's a lot of Melissias in Montana. Yeah, but there's
31:02
Speaker 1: also a lot of like super chill cool like fly
31:04
Speaker 1: fish and uh, microbrew drinking hippies out there. It's an
31:08
Speaker 1: interesting mix. And I've spent time there and I saw
31:10
Speaker 1: both in this town and it was I could feel
31:13
Speaker 1: the friction even between those groups, like with an Indian burn. Yeah,
31:18
Speaker 1: Like I was like in I was out in a
31:20
Speaker 1: saloon and having a good time with some locals, and
31:22
Speaker 1: then a couple of like cowboys came in that didn't
31:25
Speaker 1: like the people from l A being in there, and
31:28
Speaker 1: you could like, definitely, since there's two different types of
31:31
Speaker 1: people in Montana, there's probably more than two, but I'm generalizing. No,
31:35
Speaker 1: there's two. There's just two. Okay, hate groups and hippies.
31:39
Speaker 1: So um, chuck, you got some stance for us? Uh? Yeah,
31:44
Speaker 1: you dug this upright. On who people hate, acquaintances, friends,
31:51
Speaker 1: family members twelve percent. That's sad ex boyfriends and girlfriends
31:56
Speaker 1: twelve percent. And within the family, it's fathers are hated
32:01
Speaker 1: the most at, mothers in laws, and siblings at three percent.
32:08
Speaker 1: That's kind of sweet. That's surprising to me, though, I
32:11
Speaker 1: would think siblings would be the highest because they're the
32:13
Speaker 1: ones that beat the tar out of you most frequently
32:15
Speaker 1: in most families. All right, so do you hate people?
32:19
Speaker 1: That's let's finish up with that. Um. I have found
32:23
Speaker 1: that the best way to hate somebody is to just
32:28
Speaker 1: check them off. So you'll write someone off but not
32:32
Speaker 1: have that active hatred. I I don't generally like, I
32:34
Speaker 1: will just be like, I can't believe you wore that sweater,
32:37
Speaker 1: you fat pig idiot in my head, but it's usually
32:40
Speaker 1: because I'm in like a bad mood about something else.
32:44
Speaker 1: Like I don't walk around just actively hating people. It's
32:47
Speaker 1: a waste of time. It's a total waste of time.
32:51
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think I ever hated anybody. At
32:54
Speaker 1: a situation and an ex girlfriend shacked up with one
32:59
Speaker 1: of one of my best friend ends after I moved
33:00
Speaker 1: state and we were broken up quote unquote, but I
33:04
Speaker 1: also was like, I'm coming back for you, like, you know,
33:07
Speaker 1: this isn't over. Were you going to find work? And Californias.
33:11
Speaker 1: I was going west in my in my wagon and
33:15
Speaker 1: they checked up pretty quick after I left. And I
33:18
Speaker 1: had like a few years of like bad dreams and
33:21
Speaker 1: periodic bad dreams. I wasn't like every day I woke
33:24
Speaker 1: up thinking about it, but it faded away. But it
33:26
Speaker 1: was never even hate. It was just like, man, I
33:29
Speaker 1: gotta do that really yeah. I was just just like,
33:33
Speaker 1: that's that sucks. Don't do that friends. That's that's one
33:36
Speaker 1: end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum
33:38
Speaker 1: is like people who go and like kill those people,
33:42
Speaker 1: those two people, well, yeah, and that's like former famous
33:45
Speaker 1: football stars and that's that. I think it's all in
33:47
Speaker 1: the wiring. You're wired a certain way, and I'm not
33:50
Speaker 1: wired to to indulge those kinds of things. I suspect
33:54
Speaker 1: that all has to do with the amygdala. You think,
33:57
Speaker 1: all right, well, if you want to learn more about
34:00
Speaker 1: the amygdala, you can type that word into the search
34:02
Speaker 1: bart how stuff works dot Com. You can also type
34:05
Speaker 1: in the word hate to bring up the article that
34:07
Speaker 1: we worked off of today. I should point out to
34:10
Speaker 1: Josh that I made right with the dude years later,
34:14
Speaker 1: and uh, never made right with a girl. What does
34:19
Speaker 1: that say? I think it says that you hated the
34:21
Speaker 1: girl more. I just never felt the need to dredge
34:24
Speaker 1: that back up with her. Gotcha. But the dude, I
34:26
Speaker 1: was like, Man, you can't have like an old friend
34:28
Speaker 1: that you're not friends with anymore, at least I can't.
34:30
Speaker 1: I don't like that stuff. Yeah, man, I don't like
34:33
Speaker 1: that hanging over my head. Okay, try to make it right.
34:35
Speaker 1: That's what I say. You've done. Now I'm done. Sorry anyway,
34:40
Speaker 1: I think did I even say handy search bar you
34:42
Speaker 1: totally threw me off? All right, well, handy search bar
34:45
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot Com. I said that Chuck. So
34:48
Speaker 1: that means it's your turn for listener mail. Yes, Josh,
34:54
Speaker 1: this is on suicide bombing, and this Nick brings up
34:56
Speaker 1: a very good point that I think kind of fits
34:58
Speaker 1: in with this podcast. Okay, Hi guys and Jerry. I
35:01
Speaker 1: think y'all are very brave for taking on the issue
35:04
Speaker 1: of suicide bombing. I don't know about brave, but I
35:07
Speaker 1: appreciate it. I don't want to contribute too much to
35:10
Speaker 1: the delusion of emails, but I would like to say
35:13
Speaker 1: you could have more explicitly underscored something that I believe
35:16
Speaker 1: is key to understanding suicide bombing and terrorism in general,
35:21
Speaker 1: both our weapons of the weak and the belieguered sort
35:25
Speaker 1: of like our hate thing. Okay, do you agree? Um? Yeah, well,
35:30
Speaker 1: I mean we've been said a suicide bomb or costs
35:32
Speaker 1: about a hundred and fifty bucks exactly. He He points out,
35:35
Speaker 1: if Palestinians, for instance, had access to predator drones and
35:38
Speaker 1: guided missile systems rather than rocks and slingshots, I don't
35:42
Speaker 1: think that Palestinians would resort to martyrdom. I would also
35:45
Speaker 1: point to suicide bombings carried out by the viet Men
35:50
Speaker 1: during the French occupation of Vietnam or the example of
35:53
Speaker 1: Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka, both of which movements were
35:57
Speaker 1: secular in nature. All I want to say is it
35:59
Speaker 1: seems like suicide bombings is a phenomenon often arising from
36:02
Speaker 1: situations which there is a huge asymmetry of power between
36:06
Speaker 1: an occupying or apartheid resime regime or a native or
36:10
Speaker 1: a press population. You guys did mention this, but I
36:13
Speaker 1: think this dimension is at least as important to the
36:16
Speaker 1: issue as religion or notions of martyrdom um. That is
36:20
Speaker 1: sincerely from Nick, and I kind of agree Nick, and
36:23
Speaker 1: Nick is a sharp tag. It's like right on the money. Yeah,
36:25
Speaker 1: thanks for that one. Wow. Okay, Well, if you think
36:29
Speaker 1: you're a sharp tack, we want to hear from you, right, Chuck,
36:32
Speaker 1: that's right, send us an email about anything at all,
36:35
Speaker 1: Anything at all. Two Stuff podcast at how Stuff Works
36:40
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36:45
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