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The Perfectionist Mindset in Dance · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: This is Making the Impact a Dance Competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: Perfectionism is rampant in the dance world, and having such a rigid mindset can lead to burnout, anxiety, and depression, both in the studio and in life.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: Today on Making the Impact, we're discussing how to move through the perfectionist mindset and maintain the joy of dance.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Hey Dance World, welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Mueller.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Hey Courtney.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Hey listeners, we are so excited for this episode today.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: We are.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's an important topic like all of our topics over here on Making the Impact.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we're talking about being a perfectionist as a dancer.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna have some fabulous IDA judges join us on the podcast for this chat.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: But before we jump into this episode, we have some more Making the Impact Award winners to share with you from IDA affiliated competition events this season in 2025.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a great regional season over here.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Our judges are working so hard and seeing so many fabulous dances out hitting the stage.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: And we love giving out this Making the Impact Award that is sponsored by IDA and our podcast.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: This is awarded to one dance throughout the entire weekend who we felt was making the impact.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: And your IDA judges select this from the panel.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: And this could go to any dance or age, size, level, or any dance from the entire weekend that they want to recognize for their amazing technique or concept, choreography, execution.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the perks of winning this fabulous award is you get a great plaque on site at the event, but you also get a shout out right here, right now, live on the podcast.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: So let's hear some of our recent award winners.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: From Gems Dance Competitions event in St.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: Cloud, Monticello, Minnesota.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: Congrats to Dance Review Studio of Dance from Ramsey, Minnesota, and Dancer Barrett for their solo design.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: From Endless Talents event in Spartanburg, South Carolina.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Congrats to Center Stage Dance Company from Simpsonville, South Carolina for two of their groups.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: And from Onstage America's event in Long Island, New York, congrats to Triple Threat Performing Arts Company from Brooklyn, New York for their large group, The Giving Tree.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Congrats to all of the recent recipients of our Making the Impact Judges Choice Award.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And stay tuned to hear more announcements throughout the rest of season six.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: And listeners, we have some sponsors to tell you about before we get into this next episode.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Meet Michelle Legans, a dance educator from Houston, Texas, who shaking things up with her Instagram series Hey dancers, let's talk about it.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: This catchy combo starter made such an impact that she decided to turn it into a dance journal.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect for dancers to open up about topics throughout their dance season.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: And guess what?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's now available for purchase on Amazon, in paperback, hardback, and even on Kindle.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: With 25 different chapters, this journal is like a backstage path to dive into hot topics like confidence versus arrogance, bullying, negative energy, cheering on your teammates, and glimmers.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's the perfect gift for competition season, or just a fun new way to help your dancer master the art of journaling.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Swing by Michelle's Instagram to catch all of the amazing chats happening in the dance world.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then grab your new dance journal to help your dancer open up about their feelings.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: With a dazzling five-star rating on Amazon, this journal is a must-have.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Dance is always evolving, and it's crucial for dancers to talk about it.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: So head on over to Amazon to snag your copy today of the new Hey Dancers Let's Talk About It Dance Journal for only$25.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: And learn more on their website at let's talk about dance.com.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Dance World, we're jumping in to our next episode over here on Making the Impact.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a really important topic because we're talking about being a perfectionist and having that mindset.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Now, as we know, so many dancers in this dance world will deal with perfectionist mindsets throughout their time training.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: It is we want to be perfect.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone wants to be perfect.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: I know I am a perfectionist for sure when it comes to my dance training.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure that many listeners out there have their own dancers who may be perfectionists or even studio owners who deal with this in the studio as well.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we have two voices and two IDA judges actually joining us on this chat.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: The first guest that I'm excited to welcome back to the podcast is going to be bringing the mental health side of this discussion here today.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: They are a mental health counselor and they also are an IDA judge on our roster, which we love having them here over here at Making the Impact.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: And they've previously been on the podcast, but it's been a hot second.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Season three, episode 89, winning or losing, one of our most popular episodes way back in season three.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to welcome back Brittany Johnson to the podcast.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Britney.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and thank you for all that you do and contribute to our dance world on the mental side of things.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's super important.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Super important.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: And Brittany, if you wouldn't mind sharing with everyone out there and refreshing their memory more about you, where you're based, your dance training, and what you're working on now.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: I am again Brittany Johnson.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up and live here in St.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Louis, Missouri.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up doing all of the competitive dance stuff training, was on a competitive high school dance team where we competed in UDA, all the competitions, all the things.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Then I went to college and was on the collegiate dance team at the University of Central Missouri, where we also competed with UDA.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: So kind of contended, continued that training throughout college.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then I got injured, which we were just talking about, but a hip injury that kind of took me out of being involved in dance in the way that I was the mover and kind of transitioned to like, how can I still be a part of dance in a way that brings me joy and makes me um happy?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I I, you know, continue teaching.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up teaching in the studio, teacher's assistant, all the things, help and pay for twitch tuition, all the stuff, and really adapted that after college and where I was really in the studio setting a lot, teaching and continuing to learn and develop myself as a young instructor.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then now have transitioned a little bit more.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I have my own private practice.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I specialize in seeing people who have been impacted by any sort of trauma.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I end up getting a lot of dancers on my caseload as well because of just my connection to dance in the community.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's nice for a dancer to sit down with a mental health therapist who has like done a kickball change or two, right?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's nice.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I get to see a lot of what we're gonna talk about today in my dancers.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on the board for Resilience Dance Company here.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been fun to kind of transition out of, I feel like I know so much about competitive dance world and dance team world, and then like concert dance is a whole complete different ball game that I've been learning so much about as an adult that I didn't get to learn a lot about as a student of dance.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's been really fun for me.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's just nice to continue to explore all of these areas of dance and so much of dance that's out there in the world that I just I feel like I had a really narrow education about what it was.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been cool to just explore that as an adult and finally be able to get back in my own dance classes and move.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's it's been super fun to combine, I think, this world of mental health for me personally and this world of dance and kind of bring them both together to make sure we're caring for ourselves and um our dancers in the best way possible.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's so needed, right, especially right now in the industry and with social media and everything.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many more conversations that people are are open to talking about.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: They want to talk about it now.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Growing up, I don't even think that there was any type of mental health counselor for dance.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like I don't even think that existed or would understand dancers, like you said.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's so important that this is happening for our industry and there's more people like you who are bringing this out there and um making it accessible to our dance world.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm really grateful and uh proud to have you here uh on the podcast and on the IDA roster as a judge as well.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: All right, our next special guest is a brand new guest to our podcast and also a brand new to the IDA judging roster this season.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: They are going to be bringing the studio owner perspective to this discussion, and I'm so excited to get to learn more about them and meet them here for the very first time.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Please welcome Casey Alton to the podcast.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Casey.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_04: I'm so excited to be here.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yay! Awesome.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: We're happy to have you, and we're so thrilled to have you on IDA this year.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: I know that um you went through the pre-screening process.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: Here you are, and you're you're repping down south uh in the Carolinas.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's been wonderful.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yay! Awesome.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we would uh love to have you do the same old thing.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Same thing as uh Brittany, give a little rundown who you are, where you're from, your early dance training, how you became a studio owner, and what you're working on now.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, um, I'm originally from South Carolina, uh Rock Hill, it's right below Charlotte, North Carolina, kind of puts me on the map.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_04: Grew up a competition kid, um, started dancing when I was teeny and started assisting.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: I think I had my first class at age 15 or 16.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: I dated the studio owner's son who I ended up marrying.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_04: And we're high school sweethearts have been together forever.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_04: I won't tell you how old I am.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: But he's like, he gets the dance world, so that's so wonderful.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_04: I went to college, I kind of followed him to Spartanburg.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: So I went to an all-girls um liberal arts school in Spartanburg.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: I danced through school, I have a dance minor studio art major.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_04: But when I was in college, I found a friend who kind of became a mentor and she took me to New York and she took me to Atlanta.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: She took me to New York for my first time and just started kind of traveling with her and dancing and branching out of the South.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_04: So after college, my now husband was like, uh, let's go to dinner.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: Let's let's have something I need to tell you.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, We're gonna get married.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_04: This is it, it's gonna be amazing.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_04: And he was like, I got into med school and I was like, Cool, I'm gonna move to New York.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I did.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_04: He moved to Charleston and I moved to New York, and um, I was there for yeah, just a short like a year.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but while I was there, I did like Steps on Broadway internship or uh the work study, I guess is what it's called.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_04: Did some, you know, random gigs and projects and pop-ups and traveled back and forth to South Carolina teaching for my college and studios and all the things.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_04: And he finally proposed, and I was like, okay, well, if I can find like dance in Charleston, what I want to do, I'll move, I'll move there with you.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_04: We'll do that.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_04: So I did.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_04: I found a company here.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, some of my best friends are to this day still my best friends I danced with, taught at a few studios and kind of like got to a place where I was like, I just don't feel like there's a space for like what I want to do personally.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I have to say, the Charleston dance community is so wonderful.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_04: We're all pretty much friends.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_04: Like we, yeah, we reach out to each other, we get advice from each other, like just amazing studios here.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_04: So I kind of like looked at a map and I was like, where do I want to be that's not around these studios?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_04: But I put my studio in the middle of nowhere, and now we're in season 10.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, my best one of my best friends.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_04: One of my best friends that I danced with is my co-director of it.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_04: We just opened our second location this year, too.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_04: So it's been huge.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, and I have kids dancing professionally all over the world now.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: So oh my gosh.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm sure you're so proud.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_04: That's so awesome.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_04: Two studios.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_04: Well, shout out the name of your studio because I'm sure you'll have people listening that will love to hear about it.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, Creative Edge Dance Center.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, that's so cool.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'll have to swing by if I ever go through Charleston.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I love Charleston, it is the cutest.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_04: I've been um where you do an intensive every summer, and I was like, I've got to reach out to Courtney.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_04: I've got it on my hands.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: I would love it.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: I love yes, I um I went, I was teaching there like two years ago, and my mom came out and uh she'd never been there, but she lives in Myrtle Beach.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it was kind of a close drive, and we had the best time.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was uh I could I could live there for sure.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: That could be a place I could live.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's wonderful.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Casey, we're thrilled to have you.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for joining us on the podcast.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: All right, let's jump into this chat all about being a perfectionist as a dancer.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Man, all right.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the first thing I need to ask is what are y'all's personal experiences with perfectionism?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: Are you a perfectionist?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is that something that happened, you know, in your dance life, um, or just in your general life?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: Because perfectionism can happen for all kinds of, you know, people.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: But I think for us, I would love to just hear like, do you have personal experience or is that something you don't deal with?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_04: I definitely felt that growing up.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I honestly think it's kind of what held me back, other than getting married from staying in New York and doing that world.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's a no's are so hard.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I didn't get a lot of no's growing up.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: I was, you know, like um top dog at my studio, I guess, like won all the things and was very humbled when I moved to New York.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_04: But it was a no is hard if you haven't been given it and wow definitely tears you down.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but now that I, you know, have my own kids and my students and I'm able to like kind of process my childhood and my, I guess, like moving into adult transition.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_04: That's like my whole thing is getting my kids through it and letting them have more than I ever had and exposing them and just keeping them happy and healthy and like loving dance.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I have to say the same thing.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's one of the things that I tell my clients, specifically my dancers that I'm working with all the time, is like, first of all, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like I don't struggle with the same things.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's it's like something that I I like to say out loud, like I'm in recovery of perfectionism.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think it's something that I'm gonna be in recovery for for the rest of my life, right?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think some of these things that were taught that I know we're gonna talk about throughout throughout the podcast today, like they really they're in they're ingrained in you, right?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like they they are stuck and they they kind of shape how you experience the world because there's things that we're kind of taught in patterns um of how we're able to experience the world from that very young first cute bellet shoe tutu that we're getting this praise and this recognition um based on achievement, and then that continues to be reinforced over time.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and then you kind of I I love what you said.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's like sometimes we go to environments that of course feel comfortable that we get that reinforcement, and then we go to environments that aren't so uncomfortable and we get the nose or we get the rejection or we get the judgment and um gosh, it hurts and it's so painful, and it's something that I have seen kind of just like manifest even outside of dance, like as an educator, as an adjudicator, as a a wife, as a dog mom.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my chance like it's just all of these things that it's so easy to be so critical of myself.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so, gosh, like self-compassion is something that I try to practice every single day.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And there's some days where I'm really good at it, and there's some days where I'm really not.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so my 100% yes, I'm a perfectionist.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: I can see all the ways that it's showing up for me and my life today.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the one thing that all of us are getting out of the way now is we're not talking about anything on this podcast that we don't experience ourselves.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're not, we're not coming from a place of judgment.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: We're all like, yeah, we get it.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're right here with you.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think most dancers are.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like that if you are in this craft and art and sport, you want to do well.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: You want to do well for yourself.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: We wanna put in the time and the energy, we want to see progress.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think also that our, you know, we want to please our teachers and our parents who have high, high expectations for us as well.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's all like that that mental game of am I doing enough for me?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: Am I putting in the work for me?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: But also, am I pleasing the people on the other side?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: And is it positive rewards or am I not getting enough from them?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: And how do I please them more?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's this battle that you constantly are are going through in your mind when it comes to being what could be quote unquote perfect in the eyes of the people watching you as a dancer.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that, like you said, even comes very hand in hand with judging.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because and crazy enough, we just had our perfect score episode, which uh, you know, feels like very uh an interesting chat to have this following it.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and I I I was thinking of that this weekend when I was judging, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to come on this episode and tell people that I actually gave a perfect score this weekend.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: You did?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: Which I don't normally do on that episode.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: I said I don't, I'm not a perfect score giver because I think there's always room for improvement.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: However, it got me thinking the person I gave a perfect score to, I perceived what they did as perfect.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: It was a tap routine.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Every single sound I could not have asked for more.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: It was literally, I could not ask for anything more perfect.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: But did they think it was perfect?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like, is perfectionism in the eye of the beholder?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like that dancer might have felt, oh, that wasn't my best time that I didn't hit that sound.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like, but to me it was perfect and I awarded it as such.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was, you know, it got me thinking about myself and my vision of perfectionism and like I am a perfectionist, and even, you know, recovering perfectionist because I'm not dancing anymore, but even it's even keeping me from wanting to go back to class, even if I could physically do some of the things I can't do anymore.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: Am I, would it be perfect enough for me?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: And would that even be worth it if it wasn't?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: Ooh.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: And that's like the depth of the perfectionism, especially with dancers, that it's like, well, is this even worth it?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: If it's not perfect, why am I even bothering?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: And like that just sounds kind of flippant, but like that runs really deep with some of us and and how you want to show up for yourself.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oof, it's a lot.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: It makes me makes me have chills.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And even in like life outside of dance, too, like in just like everything we do.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, some people probably didn't grow up doing a craft like this, like dance that has uh such uh high expectations of of being perfect.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when we're training to be perfect.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: May many, maybe people just were on a team and it was like your team wins, but it's not about you.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like, oh, this is a team effort, but like especially in our dance world, it's so solo focused and competitive dance, which feels bizarre since it never is in the pro world.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: But like growing up, it's like me, me, me, solo, solo, solo.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a perfectionist type of thing.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to be so good to then get into the team, to then get into the professional job with the ensemble, with the company, whatever it is.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: But it is interesting to think that like I'm relating like perfectionalism perfectionist mindset in life and other aspects outside of dance.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like right now, I'm working on like a home renovation project, and there's so many things that like I'm willing to like jump over.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, uh, whatever.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, we don't need to fill that hole.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean we don't need to paint it, paint it like that.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: But then my boyfriend's like, no, it needs to be perfect.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: And like that perfectionist mindset that can apply to so many other layers of your life that you don't even really realize.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Some people are gonna be lax about things and oh, that's not a big deal.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: And other people are gonna be like, oh no, it needs to be exactly done like this.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe that has something to do with how whatever activity you did or your upbringing in your childhood or what your parents instilled in you, you know, I think that all runs, like you said, really deep in just life in general.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think it's such a balance of um like finding the joy and dance for yourself.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_04: And I always tell my kids, like or ask my kids, what are you dancing for?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_04: Like who are you dancing for?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: And it's not not a score.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_04: Don't dance for those judges, don't dance for your mom, don't dance for me, like never dance for me.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's always got to be them first.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: And then if we can get like that into their hearts and minds, then we can like do the things that will get the scores.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm like crazy blessed to have very, very talented kids.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_04: And um, I dealt with it this weekend coming off of a competition.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: I have this so many amazing kids, but this one in particular walked off stage.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_04: Her solo like leaves me jaw-dropped every time she does it.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_04: She walked off stage and she looked at me and she was like, What did you think?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I mean, I'm it was insane.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you're insane, you're absolutely beautiful.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_04: And she was like, Well, what about this part and this part and this part?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, You're insane.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: And it's and I asked her later on, I was like, Is there a part of it that you can be proud of?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like, tell me that.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: And she was like, I don't know.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Okay, so are there parts that you're not upset about?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_04: And she was like, Yeah, there are.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Okay, that's progress.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: And then she ended up winning.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: And and usually, you know, within that top three, she's right there.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_04: She's absolutely brilliant, but it's it's such a balance, and it's like, is she dancing for herself in the love of dance first, or is she dancing for that score?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like helping teach her mind, but all of them, I have so many kids that are that are the same way.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_04: They get backstage and they're like, Okay, I want this score, I want this placement.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like well, at some point we have 25 of you guys, and like you're all crazy.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: And so, like, you're gonna be switching it up and like some there's only one winner.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting because like we can be competitive, but I think it's cre like I don't feel like I ever walked on stage.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, maybe I I had goals of winning first, but I don't know.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, obviously I can't remember back to when I was 13 years old and what I was thinking before I stepped foot on stage, but that is really interesting that it's like the scores which driving them the mentality before they they enter the stage.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: And it's not it's not something we like teach, like we are we are growth mindset.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like that is our goal always.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like let's be better than we were last time, let's enjoy the process.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_04: Like let's how can we grow through it?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_04: So it I think it's just kind of competition is hard and that generation is so hard.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I think social media is hard and they see all the things and they want the posts and they want the wins to feel validated.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: And we try so hard to teach that it's it's more than that.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_04: There's a greater purpose to what we're doing.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I always tell my dancers that perfectionism is the thief of joy.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is what is going to take the joy away from everything that you're working so hard to do.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you're working so hard to do it for a self-fulfillment.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you insert that perfectionism tendencies and that mindset, that is what's gonna rob you of your joy when you go on stage because you're not grounded in the present moment of what's happening.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're not grounded in how much doing fan kicks bring you excitement.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they do, maybe they don't.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, right?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Or doing whatever your steps are or whatever your routine is, you're not connecting it to yourself and your authentic experience.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: You're connecting it to what's gonna come of it, right?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I this is where I can, I kind of compare myself.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like what was so different, you know, what you were talking about, Courtney.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't really remember what I was thinking when I was 13 before I went on stage, but I do try to figure out, well, what was different about my time growing up?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't worried about somebody from insert whatever name competition sitting there with their phone in the front row because they're a tabulator, but they're also responsible for social media, filming my routine, you know, and then I'm it's that one part where I know I'm doing a crazy face, and that's the face that they're probably gonna get.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm instantly, I see the phone, I'm on stage, I like make that connection, I I get panic, whatever it is, right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't have to worry about being exposed to all of my peers, people I know, people I don't know.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was able to just come on stage and dance, you know.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think I look at the convention world, I look at even just the studio world now, and it seems like you can't get a guest teacher to come in that isn't filming something for their own social media.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, did we ask those dancers if they wanted to be filmed today?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or like, did you just do it because the teacher booked you for an intensive?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so you came in, and this is an opportunity for you to get that combo out that you love.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like it it's I I don't know.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I I just I know what it would what it would have done to me if I would have had to take a class knowing like, well, I gotta make sure I'm in that last group that gets to be featured for the choreographers, whatever.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's a lot of pressure.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And some of that pressure, you know, there's different types of perfectionism too, right?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's the self-oriented, there's the other-oriented, and then there's the social-oriented.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the self is like, that's the pressure that just comes from you.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's that intrinsic, like, I woke up this morning, I'm motivated to be my best.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm putting the pressure on myself.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: The other-oriented is like you're putting it actually onto other people.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're taking that perfectionism and putting it onto other people.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's uh and it's funny because sometimes I think those kids are like mislabeled as like team leaders.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, you're not always a team leader if you're the one that's like constantly down on Brittany because she can't get her double turn, or constantly down on Courtney because she's one count behind.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're putting pressure onto other people to reach this level of perfectionism that you've created in your mind that may not even align with your teacher's values, right?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you have a teacher like you that's a growth mindset, but then you have a student that's like results focused, we're misaligned, right?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's the socially oriented, which just we all know there's there's an industry standard in dates that brings on these social pressures that I know.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've had podcasts on it and and all these other things.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: So there's three kind of different types that can kind of exist.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really important to first look intrinsically to figure out which one do I kind of align with most?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do I project it onto my students?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do I project it into the world?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of the times it's a reflection of the way that you're teaching or you're interacting as well, or you're just existing in the space.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's, you know, even parents.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I'm coming in and I'm doing my workshops with studios, I'm like, your parents are a part of the equation.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have to help them understand how to support their dancers holistically, right?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they are a part of your equation.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's one of the one of the things that I think it doesn't matter how gross mindset you are in your studio with that dancer and you give them that experience, and then they get in the car, and the first question their mom asks is, Well, were you in the front row tonight?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, did you get called out?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, but I've got complimented on my tongues and I've been working really hard on those.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: And your mom's like, a tondue?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: No one's featuring a tondu on whatever competition social media, right?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like it'd be like there's such a disconnect.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I think I think all of you are exactly right.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: It it it it just again, I think my motto is just it just really, it really takes away the joy.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: It really takes away the joy of what we're doing.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm so glad you brought up the parent perspective and how that plays a role because I think that there are, and we've had, like you said, podcasts on it, how to not be a stage mom.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there are stage moms who expect perfect perfect from their children in every which way possible, down to the costume that they can be in control of that they uh purchase and it costs a trillion dollars, to the guest choreographer who they think they need so they can win, to the best training studio, to the private lessons the parents often want uh perfect more than sometimes the kids do.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, then that can go into the mentality of if that's all that the kids here are 24-7, you must be perfect.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: This, this, and that.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're not good enough, you're in the back line, you're uh this why is that Susie still beating you?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like that type of mindset at home is going to then translate into the training and what is being put into the dance in the studio.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: And there's only so much that you can do because that's either going to fuel somebody if they're super competitive, or that's either going to pull them back and make them fall out of love of dance, like we kind of just mentioned.
• 28:33
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• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: I want to touch on that because it may even help you get the results that you want out of that dancer in the moment, right?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think what you just said is so important.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: It may fuel.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: It may fuel a dancer.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: It may fuel a dancer that really connects to that.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there are some positive sides to perfectionism that we we can talk about and get into, but I think what you just said is so important.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you, you may be able to drill, drill, whether it's the parent, whether it's the teacher, whether it's the choreographer, and expect that high demand from that student and that student responds.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that student responds to the high demand, and we get all of the awards and we get all of the accomplishments and all of the goals.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: But then at some point there's a shift in your dance career, right?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's the last time you're gonna take the stage or you get an injury or something, something happens that causes a shift.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Then what is all the things that we just did?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: How is it gonna manifest in other areas of your life?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: How, how are you?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: You you brought up such a good point, right?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how are you able to handle the rejection?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: How are you able to handle when you know you can't go out there and give what your 100% usually is for you?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like it may, it may give the result that we want in the moment, but then what's the bigger picture and what's the long-term effect?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's a really good point.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and Casey, I'm curious how you kind of handle that when you when you are presented, like if your studio does have that growth mindset and you're celebrating the progress, but then you're met with some outside force that doesn't care about the progress that only wants to see the results.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what do you what are what are your kind of tactics to to combat that?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I have the best dance bonds in the world.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_04: Like I not drama, they're they're wonderful.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_04: But I think it's the the community and just the culture that we've kind of created at the studio.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_04: And it's if they're not, you know, if there's a family that's not on the same page as me and we're not aligned, they don't usually make it here.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_04: Like they, or they're asked to leave, which we've done.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_04: And it's and it has to like have that culture because the kids come first and their mental health comes first.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_04: But I think for me, it's uh always a conversation, like have talk to your kids, let the kids guide you, but also find the balance of like what's a vent and then what is like actually like hurt in their heart or hurt in their mind.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, because you know, a lot of times it's teenage girls and they, you know, they're teens and they get frustrated and they are allowed to vent and should vent.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I encourage my parents to listen and like actually listen and not just form opinions and then help them process and help them rationalize like the feelings they're having to see if they're like truly, you know, issues that are being created and it's actually a perfectionist mindset rather than just like I'm mad, I didn't get the front row spot today.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then I think transparency, but I I think it's just open conversation.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then also allowing the kid to have a counselor.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_04: Like if the if it is a big enough issue that they need to talk to someone, like being okay doing that.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_04: I know that when I was growing up, like the idea of therapy is like you're going to therapy, but now it's like I think everyone needs to have that like unbiased person that can listen and then help them cope and help them like form skills.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, our minds are crazy things, especially as artists, but also just like athletes trying to achieve all of the wild things that dancers do today.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that's important too, I think, like you said, knowing when to go talk to somebody about this because uh being a perfectionist could actually hold you back from progressing as a dancer sometimes because you're so focused on the details and the technique and the execution and the this.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: But maybe what is really missing is your performance quality.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's what's lacking because it doesn't feel like it's coming from the heart anymore.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: It feels like it's coming from the refinement and fine-tuning of the details of the technique.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, you might be so, so, so perfect in all of these things.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: But we don't like especially a competition and as judges and we are all judges, I know that like a really powerful and packedful performance shines so much brighter to me when I can feel it coming from their heart more than that perfect technician that walks out on stage.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: And if that perfect technician doesn't have anything going on on their face, but they've put you can tell that they're a perfectionist.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I even sometimes say that on the critiques.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'll even say, I can tell that you've worked so hard, I can tell you're a perfectionist, but I need you to dig deep and find it from deep within so you can add the layer of performance because that's gonna be what's holding you back.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, it doesn't feel genuine, it doesn't feel raw and real in the performance.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: It feels like we've just drilled this to a point of perfection.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, and then I'm I'm missing that that net next layer of uh who you are as a dancer and why you do this because you love it and it's a performance art, it's not a skill-based sport.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: All human.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're all human at the end of the day.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Even the people that are sitting behind the judge's table are human, right?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna connect with a misstep, like a misstep more than just I connect with that more than I connect with perfectionism.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know if I've ever been able to go on the competition stage and have a perfect, I've never received a perfect score.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: That has not been a thing, right?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I always tell the teams that I work with as a judge, you can tell the teams that have good positive camaraderie amongst each other when they are dancing, right?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell the teams that like don't talk to each other and don't speak to each other and come in and do the discipline and do the thing and then they leave.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a different connection in a group routine when you can look at that person in that transition and go, I see you, girl.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're killing this, right?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: As opposed to just here's my robotic moves, transition move.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I always tell people, and I think what you're hinting at is so, so, so important.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you can do all of the training and you can do all of these things, but are you pleasant to work with?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: And are you are you someone who uplifts other people on the room, or are you someone who's judgmental of other people in the room?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because who wants that in a group space?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's there's so many things that this um perfectionist mentality can can really do to keep you from breaching the goals that you have set and that you've worked so hard for.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to speak to intention because usually intention is always positive, right?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like we are not having this perfectionist tendency or mindset because our intentions and our goals for ourselves are bad.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: And even the same with the parents, right?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're not having this intensity on your kids because your intentions are bad.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Your intentions are I want everything for my kid, I want her to be or him to be everything that I never got to be.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Your intentions are super positive.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: The way that you are implementing, the way that you are behaving is putting you further and your dancer further away from the goal.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then same with us teachers, right?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that just goes into just knowing yourself.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: You have to know yourself, you have to know the limitations that you're bringing to the table.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: You, you know, I don't have kids, but I'm like, man, I know that if I ever did have kids, like I would have to really disconnect my own experience in competitive dance and allow them to have their own.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I would have to work on that really, really hard.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I would really have to be mindful of the language that I use.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: As a teacher, I don't teach the same way that I did when I was 21 years old.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've learned and I've evolved, right?
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've healed.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes, you know, it's just about doing your own internal healing and making sure that you're not projecting your own perfectionist tendencies onto the students that you're teaching or supporting.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_04: That is so true.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I have a seven-year-old son and he's not involved in dance at all.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_04: He tells me he already knows everything, so he doesn't need to do it.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_04: But he does all the sports.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, he started karate uh a while ago.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I remember my husband usually takes in because I'm usually teaching in the afternoon.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I went in for a class and I was like watching the instructor, and then I was watching him, and I was like, he's not doing it right.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's not, he's not.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_04: And my husband's like, stop.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_04: Don't talk, just watch and enjoy.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, okay, I got it.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_04: You're right.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_04: But even as like a teacher, like sitting out, I got to sit in the audience yesterday for the first time all season and watch my um pieces from the audience, which is amazing.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I, you know, watching them, I'm so proud.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_04: But at the same time, you know where to look for like when the little things happen.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I can feel myself being like, that didn't happen, and this is supposed to go there.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_04: And and it's like turning off like what I call like the judge eyes of like being able to give critiques and just being like, think about like how far it's come.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm always so like intentional.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I tell my staff too, like, we don't critique at competition.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_04: Like, if they ask us how it went, like they already know how it went, they know how it feels.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like coming off stage and being like, you are amazing, like this was great, even if it was the worst ever, like being able to console them and like help them find the positive that did happen.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, it's definitely like that being able to turn my own brain off as a mom to a seven-year-old little boy, and then as the teacher to you for sure.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: My favorite, my favorite thing to do with dancers when they come off stage is immediately went because that's that's the first thing they do, right?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: They run to whoever they trust, their teacher, their parent, their friend, whatever.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: How was it?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: How was it?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the very first thing I do is go, no, no, no, you tell me how it was.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you tell me how it was.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because that what that immediately does is shut down your desire for validation.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right, shut that down because this isn't a moment of validation, this is a moment of self-reflection.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that you're gonna be harder on yourself than probably all three of those judges were, probably I would be, and we know your parents, right?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're your mom's over there sobbing, so she's good, like she, right?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like you make sure you at this point.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I always try to get them to reflect back on will you tell me?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think what you mentioned was really great is you have those dancers that are only going to be able to see all of the flaws, right?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: All of the things.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the way that you phrased that question.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Just like, is there one thing that you can be proud of?
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is there one thing that you feel like was an improvement from your last performance?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's totally fine for us to make goals for the next, but let's find one, two, three.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give me three things that you feel like went well?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if you struggle to come up with those, I would love to sit here and talk to you about what those are.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to go back with you and watch the video and show you what I saw.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: But in this moment, I want, I want the reflection to come from you.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, it's so crazy because the the first time I ever got asked something like that was in an acting class after college.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like I went through all my entire dance training, my whole college career, professional jobs, and then an acting class did a scene and the teacher sat back and said, How did how did you think that went?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_03: And nobody had ever asked me that before.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: They everybody always told me how they thought it went, but nobody ever asked me how I thought it went.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a huge shift in my perfectionism of like, okay, how like I had to sit back and actually reflect instead of immediately hearing what somebody else thought, but then also beating myself up at the same time.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's like at least when you're asked, you get the opportunity to either beat yourself up or or you can sit there for a second and be like, oh, well, that was asked in the spirit of confidence in in me.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that wasn't asked being like, well, that was crappy.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: How did you think it went?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it was it the the the intent was I think this went really well, but I want to hear from you.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like that was the unspoken words behind the ask.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_03: And that has completely changed how I think about, you know, when I self-reflect on things that I do, even that aren't performance-based anymore.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: And even my therapist, it's just funny that, you know, Brittany, you you work with the same sort of population because my my therapist has asked me that on multiple occasions of like, who are you trying to be perfect for?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: And like, do you do you think anybody else expects perfection?
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think your boss expects perfection?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, well, wouldn't they?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_03: Shouldn't they?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I and the answer is usually no.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right, yeah.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that changes a lot of things when you realize that perhaps the other person doesn't actually expect you to be perfect, mind blown.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_04: I ask um my dancers how they feel all the time.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_04: I teach most of my contemporary classes in my studio, and we usually start after like warming up with some improv and we start like walking back to front, and then we come back through and we just build the improv, and I'll give them like intentions or tasks or textures or whatever that we're focusing on that day.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_04: And then at the end of however many, you know, songs we make it through, I'm like, how do you feel?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_04: And most of the time they're like, feel good.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, no, no, no, like thoughtful answers.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_04: How do you feel?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes I get like gooey or flowy, which is cool.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_04: And then sometimes I get answers like stuck, and I'm like, okay, why stuck?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_04: Let's talk through that.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I am constantly saying, like, you have to have your like brain or mind-to-body connection.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like smart dancers are are good dancers, and you have to be able to think through it and be able to connect like your thoughts to your mind.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_04: And then everything kind of comes together through that.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_04: But it all starts with a how do you feel?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I ask it when they come off stage too, especially those solos, like a hug, uh, I'm proud of you, and how do you feel?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's I there's so many layers to this conversation, and something that was coming to mind um as a teacher, and I teach primarily on dance conventions every weekend.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that we do as part of the weekend is an audition class.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: And the audition class, you know, in in your head, an audition feels like a competition, right?
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like every other class should be class, right?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: But in a lot of convention settings, it feels more like an audition all the time and not a class.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm a big, big supporter of class being class.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because even those things that you mentioned earlier, Brittany, about like, oh, here comes the camera.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now we have to be perfect.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: All of a sudden, am I getting selected?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Those things are are coming into play into the mental aspect of well, am I not perfect enough to be selected?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Selected for this video?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: And should do am I expected to be perfect enough by the end of an hour class at 11 years old?
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: Does that mean that I'm not at the right progress level in my training?
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Am I and then mom starts spiraling?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is does that mean that she's not at a good enough studio because she didn't get selected?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because this dancer got selected, but how many hours do they train?
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like all these things can go into your mind as far as like, why was I not perfect enough to be selected for something?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: When for me, I'm like, but this is a class.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like at the end of the day, this is a training.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: We're not stage ready yet.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: We're allowed to mess up.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: I encourage you to mess up.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: And even in our in my audition classes that I run, I try to give a nice little explanation afterwards and explain to the dancers how did you feel?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: How do you think that went?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: Raise your hand if you think that went as best as it possibly could for you.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: And most of the hands go up.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then I ask, hands down.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: So what if you felt like that was not your best audition?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: That did not go as well as you wanted it to go.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: A few hands raise.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: And mean mom, this is mostly when I'm with the minis.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: And the minis aren't sure yet.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: They're still figuring it out.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like there's not as much.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they're really raw and honest, but other times they're like, Am I supposed to answer how what's the right answer to this question?
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm trying and I try to explain to them like, listen, you are allowed to feel these emotions.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: If you raised your hand and were honest in the room and said, that wasn't my best performance, that is a real thing that you're allowed to feel, and that is okay.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I want you to understand that you're a human, you're allowed to not have every day is going to be different.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: One day is going to be your best performance, and also one day is going to be your best performance.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you might still not be a winner and you might not still get selected.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that is also okay.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: But we get into these mentalities where if I don't get the certificate, if I don't get the call out, if I don't get the trophy in this competitive dance world, then that makes dancers feel like they're less than and not perfect.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I also think that with that, the hard part is that because we're afraid of of embracing rejection, now everyone's a winner.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: In one way or another, the industry has shifted into everyone being a winner.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if I agree with that either.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because then for your going back to the beginning, Casey, you said I was the top dog at my studio when I got to New York and it was way harder than I thought.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: So if you never experience rejection, even when you think you're perfect and you are at your highest level, there's still more perfect out there that might be trumping your perfect.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a hard reality check when you get put in those situations.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I have like, you know, I have like a love-hate with how our industry continues to shift into the everyone's a winner mentality because I also think that that can make dancers not put in the progress anymore if they think that they are perfect already.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that went in a million different directions.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, I try to reflect with my dancers in their audition spaces to open up and have them connect with their emotions and know that you can have off days, you can have good days.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: The outcome might not always be what you're looking for.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: And all of those emotions and feelings are real and you're allowed to feel that.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: Even as a mini who's only eight years old, you're going to be doing this a lot more.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to get used to feeling those things and knowing how to overcome them.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: And rejection is a part of that.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think what you're what you're talking about is so important.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because it's if we think about the opportunities that we are robbing from our kids and our dancers when we don't allow them to go through the hard times, right?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I have to tell parents all the time.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: You are supposed to be the person that when they get in the car and they feel bad about the way that they performed at convention or competition or class, you're the one that sits there and goes, dang, this feeling must really suck.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: This must be really hard for you.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: I I hate, I hate watching you be this upset about yourself.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: I hate watching you go through this.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get through it.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: Let's figure out what didn't go well in class so you can go into class tomorrow and feel like those things are achievable.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you can maybe you weren't paying attention as much because you didn't sleep last night because you had a test today at school and you focus more on the test than you did preparing for your choreography.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like there are real life circumstances that get in the way of you being able to show up the way that you want to show up all the time.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that parent's role.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's the role of the parent, is to support the kid, right?
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: The teacher may not always know that you had a science test earlier today, or that your parents got divorced over the weekend, or whatever, whatever's going on that makes you not show up in class the way that you want to show up in class.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's that parent's role, right?
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what you're talking about to me is so important.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: We are robbing these dancers of the opportunity.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: Dancers, you're robbing yourself of the opportunity to learn and grow through the missteps, through the failures, through the rejections, because all of that is really important information.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I it makes me kind of go back to when I work with these dancers, I always say, wait, there's a value, a moral disconnect here.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: What are you actually showing up to convention for?
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: Are you showing up to get that scholarship so you can hold the certificate, stand in fifth position, and post it on your social media and get all of the lights and love?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's one reason to be in the dance world.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't seem like there's a lot of self-fulfillment there.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: I get nervous for you about what happens when you go to a convention outside of your city where there's competition you've never seen before, where you're not achieving that.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have to relate it to real life, right?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like even as a mom, you give birth and everyone is celebrating you and so excited and bringing you gifts and all of the things.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like no one celebrated you yesterday for getting through that meltdown with your toddler.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: No one showed up on the porch with balloons and a cake and was like, girl, you killed it.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: You killed it.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Look at transparency.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're not getting a certificate every single time you do something positive and productive for yourself or the world in life.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't, it doesn't work that way, right?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: When you're in the studio training, Courtney Leslie, when you guys are prepping for teaching, when you're in in the your apartment and your little square footage and you're doing your choreography, no one's showing up at the front door and being like, look how hard you're working.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna kill it at your teaching this weekend.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have to be able to do that work for yourself.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so, where are our goals?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Where are our values?
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: What are we actually wanting out of our dance experience?
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the teacher and the parent and the kid are all not aligned.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like the kid has these goals, the teacher has these goals, the parent has their own goals.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's when we see this kind of have some really negative side effects and some consequences.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're if you're really feeling yourself struggling with that perfectionism, I always take you back to, well, what are your actual values and what are your goals for being in the dance space?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: What are you wanting to get out of this experience?
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because some people are out there for all the trophies and all the awards and all the recognition.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that's totally fine.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's your own journey.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's you.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: Some people have just different goals and different ideas.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_04: I had a one of my first students when I moved to Charleston.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_04: She's working in New York now, doing amazing things.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_04: She was like always the kid, hardest worker in the class, not the best feet, not the best knees.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_04: Took a million private lessons.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_04: And I remember like being at competition with her and her coming to me and being like, Miss Casey, why can't I win?
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, you're doing it right.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_04: You're doing it right.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_04: Keep training, keep on your journey, like trust your process, you're doing it right.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and she comes back and teaches for me every summer now.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_04: And she set a piece for us this year.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, some advice she gave to my kids, I guess a couple of years ago, she she was like, I remember being in your shoes.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_04: I remember being here worried about it, like comparing myself, feeling like everyone was looking at me like I was a failure, when in reality I wasn't.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_04: I was just on my own journey.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_04: And she said to them, Um, somebody else's successes are not your failures.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_04: And it was just like for my kids to hear it, just from like somebody they watched grow up.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and maybe maybe we need to redefine the definition of win.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: What is the definition of win?
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because even if you win at this competition, girl, there were 14 competitions in this regional area this weekend.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what what is the definition of win?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the definition of winning is getting up on stage this weekend when you had the flu all week.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Who cares what happens, right?
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's what that's what I would say is let's define what win is for you because it's gonna be different for Courtney, Leslie, Casey, and me.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's a great idea.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: And it's gonna change over time based on what your goals change to and what your, you know, what your circumstances are.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I have a question.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: This is kind of like the opposite of perfectionism, or and I don't maybe maybe you guys will have some insight into this.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: So I have a nephew who is not involved in dance, but all of a sudden this year he wanted to do the talent show at school.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: He and his friends, they're these people are not dancers either.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_03: So they live in an area with a lot of actual high talent.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: There's kids who go to performing art schools, there are kids who are, you know, doing pre-professional productions of theater.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: So they decided to do like a cute little number to a apparently there's an in-sync song that was in a movie in Deadpool.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: And the kids now think that's cool, but only because it was in Deadpool.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_03: So they wanted to do bye bye bye.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_03: So they decided to choreograph this little routine.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they practiced it for three days at recess and then there was a talent show.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: Meanwhile, there's a child who does pre-professional productions of things, did a little tap solo to a thoroughly modern Millie song.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_03: She was fantastic, apparently.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_03: The kids did their very best, but she's the one who won.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: And my nephew, you know, on and on and on after this thing.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, why didn't we win?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: Why did she win?
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: She wasn't very good.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: We were very good.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_03: And my sister, who was a dancer also, was like, I'm gonna need you to check yourself because do you understand that she takes dance class every day?
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: She has been taking dance class and singing lessons every day for three years, and this is the result of her hard work.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: What do you do three days a week?
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: Not that.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm curious if this happens in the dance space in your experience of there's just some some kids who don't understand the work it takes to get to a certain point and maybe have a different understanding of the process.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_03: And like that's obviously not perfectionism, but it's a mindset of I should I feel like I'm doing the work, but you're actually not.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what does that manifest?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: How does that manifest in y'all's experience?
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I think for me it's, you know, it comes with maturity and it also it's the kids, every kid has a different journey, and every kid can hang on to notes, and every kid just like I'd say to their parents all the time, like they bloom at different times.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like you're, you know, and I have some kids that will take lessons every single week and they're in every single class and they're just not up to the level of like this.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I have a dancer that came to me four years ago.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_04: She's insane, like such a naturally talented kid, never danced before.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_04: I saw like I spotted her doing a back walk over because she was like trying or a kickover because she was like trying to she could get into a bridge and she was like kicking over.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I'm just gonna help you, so you don't offer yourself.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_04: And then she did it, did it.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, you need to put her in a dance class.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_04: And here she is, like four years later, she's amazing, and it's it's so hard.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_04: Like, kids are some are naturally gifted and and she works hard, but there's some that are naturally gifted and don't work hard and still get the things, and then there's some that work so hard all the time and are doing all the things, and like it will come, it will come.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_04: It's you're just not there yet.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_04: But it's it takes time and it's every kid is different and it's helping parents understand that.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: It sends me back to the goals and values conversation because it's like I I would go back to your nephew and I would say, Okay, well, what what was your goal for entering the talent show?
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: Was your goal to win?
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: If your goal was to win, maybe we should have had some rehearsals outside of recess.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we should have started preparing for the talent show in 2023, right?
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, right?
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like what was the goal?
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: Was the goal to just go get up there and have fun with your friends and enjoy, enjoy it?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: Did you do that?
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: Then you achieved your goal, right?
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter who wins, right?
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I think that's the thing.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: We've we got to have some realistic goal setting definition that's happening.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, are you in a studio that aligns with your goals?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you're at a studio that does more recreation and you're like, we need to win everything, you're not in the right place, right?
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in a studio that is we got to win everything, and you want your dancer to be on a softball team and a soccer team and in student council and AT classes and do all the things, that may not be the right environment for you, right?
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: So what is your goal?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: If your goal is to be a professional dancer, let's have a conversation with a professional dancer and figure out what that actually takes to reach that goal.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because we may think it's this training that we're getting in our studio, we may think that it's this path or this journey, but we don't actually know.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then what I think we're seeing is that those things are not aligning.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a teacher that's like, well, you told me when you were four you wanted to be a professional dancer, and now you're 14 and I'm not seeing you put in the work.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that 14-year-old's like, Well, I think I might have figured out for myself that I don't actually want to put in the work to be a professional dancer.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm cool with just doing this till I'm 18, and then I want to be an astronaut.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, Oh, well, I didn't know our goals changed.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I was pushing you towards the thing that you're not, you know what I'm saying?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, communication that alignment, that alignment of what is your actual mission, right?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: Were you just joining the talent show to have a good time, or were you really striving for first?
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because those are two different journeys in terms of how we prepare.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_03: I will tell that to my sister.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: And what are we like you went what you said earlier, Brittany?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what are we showing up to class for?
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like the goal.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: I love this goal talk because there's a lot of times when even when I'm teaching and again I'm in convention, I can see who wants to be there and who could care less if they're there.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, okay, so why are you here then?
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_02: Are you just me?
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: Studio made me mom made me.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: I wanna be able to say that I was here for social media purposes, to say relevant.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_02: Even if I don't really try, even if I'm just in the back, even if I'm doing cartwheels the whole time, like and then you get upset that you didn't win something, or you get upset that you didn't get called out, or other people did.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: And typically the dancers that are getting recognized are the ones that we as teachers can tell, and even everyone in the room sitting can tell, that they are invested.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: They are there, they are eager, they are putting in the work.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: And like you said, Leslie, it's like there are dancers I think that are used to just kind of going with the flow and going with the motions, but they still get rewarded in some which way because it's a business at the end of the day, in studio side, competition side, whatever side, where the mentality is, well, I'm good enough, right?
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_02: I got recognized, I got noticed, I must be doing something right.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: Even if this is only my 50%, I'm doing something right because someone told me I was.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: So then that's the that's when they're not going to make that progress and not have the drive to either, because they're already being told they're fine.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: Or and maybe it is just uh almost participation oblig like we're required to give this to you type of reward to please everybody and make everybody happy.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: The kid doesn't know that.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the parents might start figuring something out, the studios might start figuring something out, but is that what we want?
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: And is that enough?
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_02: And for some dancers it is.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_02: And for many others, they won't understand that there's more work that needs to be put in to obtain those goals that you want.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: And does that mean that you have to be a perfectionist?
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't necessarily think so.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think that you just have to have a heart and you have to you have to really want to do something, not feel forced to do something.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that is our fine line when we're in a sp and when we're in an activity that a parent is paying for because you're you're not financially responsible for being here.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need a kid doesn't know how much it cost for a parent to get them to this convention or get them to this class.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_02: The kids are just like, oh well, I'm getting in the car today and I'm showing up to my class at five o'clock at night.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I I I don't think that money needs to be a discussion into the brains of children because that's not necessary.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, like there are times when I have to talk at convention and reprimand a little bit and reality check the kids a little bit because I can tell that they are so clueless to how much of a privilege it is to be in that space.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I have to remind them some people are very they are very aware and they are soaking in every single moment and making the most of it.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: But there's a lot that are completely clueless, and it really makes me feel a certain way as someone who's traveled really far to come give my love of dance to you, and the kids are just like phoning it in, and I would rather be at the playground.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh my goodness, this these parents have spent so much money, and I know it's not about the money, but like make the experience enjoyable and like put the work in if you want to see the progress, because you can't be mad if you don't get if you don't get what you want, if you didn't put the work in or the dedication or the time.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we see And be willing, be willing to have the hard conversations with your kids if you notice that your kid is not putting in the work ethic that matches your investment.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, like maybe, maybe our kid doesn't need to be a competitive dancer.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe our kid doesn't need to go to the convention.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, you know, maybe uh exactly, right?
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like it just making sure that it aligns, right?
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think you're exact you're exactly right.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and it it sucks because what sucks about perfectionism, especially in the dance world, is it's reinforced, right?
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like when we have these perfectionist tendencies, when we can get ourselves in these perfectionist kind of traps, as I kind of like to say with my clients, you'll get reinforced because when you're in that studio and you're disciplining and you're you're doing these things that you think is helping you reach towards your goals, you will be recognized, you will be celebrated, your flexibility will develop, your skills will develop, you will get kind of that reinforcement.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: But what sucks is that it does have some really negative consequences.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this perfectionism itself is not a mental health disorder.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's a personality trait.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: But what it does is it will bring on mental health challenges, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, OCD, even.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it brings on these things that create these challenges in life.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then again, I think what we've pinpointed throughout this podcast is it creates this ideology that when we're putting ourselves in environments that aren't in the dance setting, it also shows up.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then that can be that can cause a lot of interference.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're not actually happy with yourself.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're not fulfilled internally.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it just sucks that there's so much reinforcement of this mentality.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I get why it's so persistent in our dance world.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: We hope you enjoyed our latest episode all about the perfectionist mindset and how to break free from it.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: Special shout out to our IDA judges, Casey and Brittany, for joining us on this chat.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget to follow them on Instagram.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: You can find Brittany at Brit underscore empowered intention and Katie at KSAutin underscore dance.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_02: And don't forget to check out Brittany's mental health counseling and workshop, Empowered Movement, to bring one of her workshops to your studio.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: Learn more on her website at empoweredmvt.com or click the link in our show notes.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_03: Don't forget to follow MakingThe Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcasts, and pretty much everywhere you listen to podcasts.
• 1:03:37
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• 1:03:43
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• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_03: Join now at Impact Danceadjudicators.com slash Platinum Premium or click the link in our show notes.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: Check out IDA's online judges critiques.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_02: Our seasoned judges will provide you with the video critique of your routine, just like you'd receive at competition.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_02: But with IDA's online judges critiques, we take it one step further with our post-critique additional feedback.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_02: Your judge will go through your routine again, pausing the video to give you even more detailed and personalized feedback.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_02: You can even request a judge that specializes in your style of dance.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: This game changing service has helped countless dancers prepare for the competitive date, and it's available year round.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_02: With critiques starting at only$35, what are you waiting for?
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: Click the link in our show notes or visit our website at Impact Dance at Beautyfeaters.com/slash one line critiques.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_02: To learn more and submit your dance today.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_03: Season six is coming to a close, but we have a few more episodes on the way.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_03: A day in the life of a studio owner, and our final genre spotlight episode.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_02: Stay tuned next week for some more great episodes on making the impact.