Latest / Question Everything / Illinois Governor JB Pritzker on How He Fought ICE’s Messaging War

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Illinois Governor JB Pritzker on How He Fought ICE’s Messaging War · Question Everything

0:06
Speaker 1: People in Minneapolis are afraid to go to the grocery store,
0:10
Speaker 1: to send their children to school. I'm not just talking
0:13
Speaker 1: about immigrants. People throughout the Twin Cities are worried they
0:15
Speaker 1: could run into a cloud of tear gas or be
0:17
Speaker 1: detained for no reason as ICE continues its violent operations there.
0:23
Speaker 1: In the last several weeks, ICE agents have shot and
0:25
Speaker 1: killed two citizens, 37-year-old ICU nurse Alex Preddy and 37-year-old
0:31
Speaker 1: mom Renee Good. After both deaths, the Trump administration quickly
0:35
Speaker 1: started making up stories about what had happened and about
0:39
Speaker 1: the victims, calling Pretty and Good domestic terrorists who were
0:43
Speaker 1: trying to kill ICE agents. Cell phone videos and testimonies
0:46
Speaker 1: from eyewitnesses show that those claims are not true. But
0:50
Speaker 1: it's all part of a concerted effort by the administration
0:53
Speaker 1: to control the narrative. Given the level of emergency this
0:57
Speaker 1: situation has reached, with masked federal officers killing Americans on
1:01
Speaker 1: the street. Here at the show, we've been turning our
1:03
Speaker 1: focus to ICE's assault and how much of it relies
1:06
Speaker 1: on them trying to bury the truth. Last week, I
1:09
Speaker 1: talked to Washington Post reporter Drew Harwell about his reporting
1:13
Speaker 1: on ICE's internal propaganda unit. Go give that a listen
1:16
Speaker 1: if you haven't already. Drew got a hold of thousands
1:19
Speaker 1: of internal chats between ICE employees about their social video
1:23
Speaker 1: production and strategy that really give a picture of how
1:26
Speaker 1: we've gotten to where we are. Next week, we have
1:29
Speaker 1: a story that our team has been reporting for months
1:31
Speaker 1: about a journalist ICE retaliated against after he was covering
1:34
Speaker 1: their raids on the ground. And this week, an interview
1:38
Speaker 1: with the governor of another state that was targeted by
1:41
Speaker 1: ICE not too long ago, where he gets into the
1:43
Speaker 1: tactics he used to fight the agency's messaging. He was
1:46
Speaker 1: ultimately successful in stopping President Trump from sending in National
1:50
Speaker 1: Guard troops to his state.
1:52
Speaker 2: This is Governor J.B.
1:53
Speaker 1: Pritzker of Illinois.
1:56
Speaker 3: Donald Trump is using National Guard and other troops as
2:00
Speaker 3: a way to frighten the people of the United States
2:03
Speaker 3: in great American cities, and that's not what people signed
2:07
Speaker 3: up for.
2:08
Speaker 1: From Placement Theory and KCRW, I'm Brian Reed. This is
2:11
Speaker 1: Question Everything. Stick around. One of the conversations I've been
2:19
Speaker 1: thinking about a lot as I've been watching the current
2:22
Speaker 1: situation unfold in Minnesota— is an interview I heard in
2:25
Speaker 1: the fall on the Mixed Signals podcast from Semaphore with
2:29
Speaker 1: Illinois Governor J.B.
2:30
Speaker 2: Pritzker.
2:31
Speaker 1: This was in October when ICE agents had descended on
2:35
Speaker 1: Chicago in what they called Operation Midway Blitz. They arrested
2:39
Speaker 1: thousands of people with almost daily raids. People flooded the
2:42
Speaker 1: streets in protest. Through it all, ICE and other officials
2:45
Speaker 1: and agencies continued to pump out aggressive, troll-y social media content.
2:50
Speaker 1: Same with right-wing influencers. all very similar to what's happening
2:53
Speaker 1: in Minneapolis. The hosts of the podcast Mixed Signals are
2:57
Speaker 1: Semaphore editor-in-chief Ben Smith, who's actually been on our show before,
3:01
Speaker 1: talking about Donald Trump's lawsuit against the Pulitzer Prize board,
3:04
Speaker 1: and media editor Max Taney. I'm a regular listener to
3:07
Speaker 1: their show. They get excellent guests from the worlds of
3:10
Speaker 1: media and politics. They also get great scoops about the
3:13
Speaker 1: media industry. And this interview in particular has been on
3:16
Speaker 1: my mind because Ben and Max asked Governor Pritzker, as
3:20
Speaker 1: he was in the thick of it, just as Minnesota
3:22
Speaker 1: Governor Tim Walz is right now, about the maneuvers he
3:26
Speaker 1: and his team were trying to counteract ICE's messaging and
3:29
Speaker 1: to try and get ICE to stop their operation in Chicago.
3:33
Speaker 1: Here's Governor Pritzker in October talking to Max and Ben.
3:37
Speaker 1: You'll hear Ben first.
3:38
Speaker 4: You are really in the middle of essentially an information
3:41
Speaker 4: war with the Trump administration. It's one that's being conducted
3:44
Speaker 4: mostly in videos, out-of-context videos, images, We notice your press
3:49
Speaker 4: office is now sending out press releases sometimes that are
3:51
Speaker 4: just only images and that you're filming a lot of TikToks.
3:54
Speaker 4: And I'm curious how you think about a world where, like,
3:57
Speaker 4: on one hand, there is arguments over what really happened.
3:59
Speaker 4: And on the other hand, there's just a lot of
4:02
Speaker 4: images and videos and things that are a little harder
4:05
Speaker 4: to get your arms around. Like, can you win arguments
4:08
Speaker 4: or do you just have to get more views?
4:09
Speaker 3: I don't know about winning arguments, but here's what my
4:13
Speaker 3: deep concern has been and why we react this way,
4:16
Speaker 3: communicating as you described. ICE and CBP, Customs and Border Patrol,
4:22
Speaker 3: and the Department of Homeland Security, not to mention the
4:26
Speaker 3: White House, are regularly putting out false information. And they're
4:32
Speaker 3: doing it either in reaction to something that they did
4:35
Speaker 3: on the ground, some incitement that they created on the ground,
4:39
Speaker 3: or just because they want to denigrate somebody or something
4:42
Speaker 3: about Chicago.
4:44
Speaker 2: And some of what they're putting out is hard to respond.
4:47
Speaker 3: To right away because we may not know the facts
4:50
Speaker 3: as they have reported them. What we have seen, though,
4:53
Speaker 3: because we're, I think, diligent about sending out videos and
4:58
Speaker 3: telling the true story is we're able to prove that
5:06
Speaker 3: much of what they're saying is false. Now, I try
5:09
Speaker 3: very hard to make sure that what we're putting out
5:12
Speaker 3: is fact. And that's why you see a lot of
5:14
Speaker 3: videos and pictures as opposed to like DHS will put
5:18
Speaker 3: out a press release claiming something about an incident. There
5:22
Speaker 3: was the killing of Silverio Villegas Vargas on the ground
5:30
Speaker 3: in Franklin Park just a couple of weeks ago. And
5:35
Speaker 3: they claimed that they killed him because he had seriously
5:39
Speaker 3: injured an officer and dragged him for quite some ways.
5:42
Speaker 2: In his car, et cetera.
5:44
Speaker 3: We didn't know when they put that information out what
5:47
Speaker 3: was true because we weren't there on the ground. But
5:50
Speaker 3: we discovered in the next two days, because of local
5:53
Speaker 3: media that went and interviewed everybody that was standing around
5:56
Speaker 3: there at the time, that actually that wasn't true. And indeed,
5:59
Speaker 3: the officer himself, the agent, said, I wasn't seriously injured.
6:04
Speaker 3: And yet they killed this man for it. So that's
6:07
Speaker 3: just an example, but it's been important for us to
6:09
Speaker 3: get the facts and put the truth out Because over time,
6:13
Speaker 3: what's happening is the public is beginning to see that
6:16
Speaker 3: ICE and CBP are not telling the truth. And I'm
6:20
Speaker 3: at least trying to get as many facts out as
6:23
Speaker 3: fast as possible so people can understand. And people are
6:25
Speaker 3: beginning to see again that we're telling the truth.
6:28
Speaker 2: They're not.
6:29
Speaker 5: How do you get the sense that people believe what
6:32
Speaker 5: you guys are saying versus what the White House is saying?
6:34
Speaker 5: Why do you think that that's changing? What's giving you
6:37
Speaker 5: that impression?
6:38
Speaker 3: First, that just, you know, an anecdotal on the ground,
6:41
Speaker 3: people walk up to me and talk to me about it,
6:44
Speaker 3: that they saw something in the news and then they
6:47
Speaker 3: found out because we had put video out or because
6:49
Speaker 3: the local media had had done it, that that that
6:54
Speaker 3: what the the feds had said wasn't true.
6:56
Speaker 2: That's part of it. Anecdotal, but also.
6:59
Speaker 3: Because we're starting to see more and more that people
7:02
Speaker 3: are showing up at peaceful protests across Chicago, not just
7:08
Speaker 3: at the ICE facility the way you guys see sometimes,
7:11
Speaker 3: but in neighborhoods. They're showing up because they have begun
7:16
Speaker 3: to see that they're not getting the truth. And I
7:20
Speaker 3: have asked everybody in Chicago that when they see ICE
7:25
Speaker 3: agents or CBP in the neighborhoods, pull your phone out.
7:29
Speaker 3: video everything, post it or send it to local media.
7:35
Speaker 3: And more and more, that's exactly what's happening. Virtually everything
7:39
Speaker 3: that people can video, they are now, and we're getting
7:42
Speaker 3: it from multiple angles. And on top of that, we
7:45
Speaker 3: have our police videos that we've set up in places
7:48
Speaker 3: where we know there are protests because we want to
7:51
Speaker 3: make sure that ICE is not abusing its power. I'm
7:55
Speaker 3: saying it, I'll say it a little differently. We know
7:57
Speaker 3: they are. And we think that having cameras there, especially
8:01
Speaker 3: cameras from state police that are videoing what ICE is
8:05
Speaker 3: doing on the ground, shooting people with pepper pellets or
8:10
Speaker 3: with rubber bullets, and that's happening without any provocation. We
8:17
Speaker 3: want to make sure that that's on official video or
8:19
Speaker 3: on just bystander video.
8:21
Speaker 4: Before we talk today, I emailed with Tricia McLaughlin, the
8:24
Speaker 4: spokeswoman for DHS. And one of the things I asked her,
8:28
Speaker 4: there's a kind of remarkable tweet she has. Somebody had
8:31
Speaker 4: posted a video of a 15-year-old girl being dragged into
8:34
Speaker 4: a car protesting.
8:35
Speaker 6: And she said, you've got this all wrong. This isn't ICE.
8:39
Speaker 6: And I think she was wrong. In fact, it was ICE.
8:41
Speaker 4: I asked her why she didn't take that down.
8:43
Speaker 6: She didn't say.
8:44
Speaker 4: But she did also send me over a list of,
8:46
Speaker 4: you know, posts debunking Governor Pritzker's lies.
8:49
Speaker 6: And I don't want to kind of go point.
8:51
Speaker 4: By point, but just based on what you said, you're
8:52
Speaker 4: asking people to film these federal agents essentially like they're
8:56
Speaker 4: You know, like they're an occupying power, like they're invaders.
8:59
Speaker 4: And I think their point is these are, you know,
9:01
Speaker 4: these are federal government workers. You know, whatever you like
9:05
Speaker 4: about the policy or don't like about the policy. Trump
9:07
Speaker 4: was elected promising to send ICE agents into cities to
9:10
Speaker 4: arrest undocumented immigrants. Clearly, the federal government has a right
9:13
Speaker 4: to do that.
9:14
Speaker 2: And I think.
9:15
Speaker 4: At some level, their objection is that you're treating that
9:17
Speaker 4: as illegitimate when it's basically legitimate.
9:19
Speaker 6: What do you say to that?
9:20
Speaker 3: You know, we've had ICE in Chicago for, I don't know,
9:23
Speaker 3: 20 years. I'm not sure how long, but a long time,
9:26
Speaker 3: long time before I was governor and before Trump was president.
9:29
Speaker 3: And we've had, we've never had Customs and Border Patrol,
9:32
Speaker 3: and we should talk about that. But look, I welcome,
9:37
Speaker 3: whether it's ICE or local or federal help with civilian
9:42
Speaker 3: law enforcement, I welcome their help taking the worst of
9:46
Speaker 3: the worst criminals, whether they're immigrants or otherwise, off the streets.
9:53
Speaker 2: So I want that help. And we've had it in
9:55
Speaker 2: the past.
9:57
Speaker 3: What we've seen with ICE now and now with C
10:00
Speaker 3: on the ground, and they've conscripted FBI agents and people
10:04
Speaker 3: from other agencies to join in the ICE endeavor, is
10:07
Speaker 3: that they're under the direction of Gregory Bovino from CBP,
10:11
Speaker 3: who was the culprit leading the effort that caused mayhem
10:16
Speaker 3: on the They're carrying out their duties in ways that
10:23
Speaker 3: we've never seen before, abusing people, dragging people around. People
10:29
Speaker 3: are brown or black. They're literally just being stopped and like,
10:32
Speaker 3: show me your papers. And if they don't have papers,
10:35
Speaker 3: they're being detained. U.S.
10:37
Speaker 2: Citizens, we've had many, many videos. I hope you all
10:40
Speaker 2: have seen this. Many, many videos of.
10:43
Speaker 3: ICE agents wearing their masks, wearing their camouflage uniforms, and
10:48
Speaker 3: and demanding that people prove their citizenship and when they can't, again,
10:53
Speaker 3: being thrown in the back of a vehicle.
10:55
Speaker 2: So this is what they're doing. It's improper.
10:58
Speaker 3: And that's my point. They shouldn't be doing any of this.
11:02
Speaker 3: They have duties, but they're carrying them out in ways
11:05
Speaker 3: that we've never seen before. And they're claiming that this
11:09
Speaker 3: is in an environment of everything's on fire and there's
11:13
Speaker 3: murders going on on every street corner.
11:17
Speaker 2: You know, they just have this overall narrative they're telling.
11:19
Speaker 3: And so I'm trying to debunk as much of that
11:23
Speaker 3: as I can. When she says that, you know, I'm
11:26
Speaker 3: not giving proper respect, they're not respecting the people of
11:29
Speaker 3: the city of Chicago or the people of Illinois, and
11:31
Speaker 3: they're not respecting our local law enforcement either. They give
11:34
Speaker 3: us no information, no heads up on anything that they're doing.
11:38
Speaker 3: We would like to know so that we can prevent
11:40
Speaker 3: protesters from possibly from doing something wrong or just, you know,
11:46
Speaker 3: we don't want a mistake where police show up because
11:49
Speaker 3: they hear someone's getting attacked on a street corner by
11:52
Speaker 3: someone who's masked and, you know, and find out that's
11:55
Speaker 3: an ICE agent.
11:57
Speaker 2: So we'd like to have communication. We get zero, zero communication.
12:01
Speaker 3: So I don't have much respect for the way they're
12:04
Speaker 3: operating their agencies right now.
12:05
Speaker 2: So.
12:06
Speaker 5: Gavin Newsom has rolled out this communication strategy where he's
12:10
Speaker 5: basically doing a Trump impression. He's doing these all caps tweets.
12:13
Speaker 5: They're doing these AI generated videos.
12:16
Speaker 7: You seem to be.
12:17
Speaker 5: Taking a different tact. I don't see you doing something
12:21
Speaker 5: like that. How do you combat the way that this
12:24
Speaker 5: administration is pushing aggressively on social media in that tone
12:30
Speaker 5: and dominating through this aggressive tone?
12:32
Speaker 3: Look, I think pushing back in whatever way you can
12:35
Speaker 3: is appropriate, especially as I've just described how they're abusing
12:39
Speaker 3: their power. And I enjoy the mocking.
12:45
Speaker 2: That I read that he does.
12:48
Speaker 3: But I got to say, I have a different method.
12:52
Speaker 3: Maybe it's because I'm a Midwesterner. Maybe we just think
12:56
Speaker 3: differently here. And also, my own background makes me take
13:01
Speaker 3: this extremely seriously what they're doing on the ground. And
13:04
Speaker 3: I'm not suggesting anybody else isn't, but just for me,
13:08
Speaker 3: it's hard for.
13:08
Speaker 2: Me to make a joke out of much of it.
13:11
Speaker 3: You know, I spent 10 years standing up with, sitting
13:15
Speaker 3: down with, working with Holocaust survivors to build a Holocaust museum.
13:20
Speaker 3: And there's a lot you learn when you learn the
13:23
Speaker 3: history of the Nazis in Germany and what happened to
13:27
Speaker 3: those survivors. Um, and in addition to that, I mean,
13:31
Speaker 3: just having been a, you know, an activist on behalf
13:34
Speaker 3: of civil rights and someone who believes in social justice,
13:36
Speaker 3: part of my religion and, um, what I've been doing
13:38
Speaker 3: my whole life. I mean, I just, when I see
13:40
Speaker 3: what they're doing, it looks like every authoritarian regime we've
13:44
Speaker 3: seen around the world, um, putting troops on the ground
13:48
Speaker 3: in cities, uh, scaring people, um, you know, trying to
13:52
Speaker 3: intimidate people, uh, and then targeting people based on the
13:56
Speaker 3: color of their skin, uh, All of that is incredibly
13:59
Speaker 3: offensive to me. And then it's not just offensive to
14:02
Speaker 3: me because it's happening across the country. It's right in
14:08
Speaker 3: my state and in my home city. And we are
14:10
Speaker 3: being targeted day in and day out. And there's no reprieve.
14:16
Speaker 3: And so I just, I don't know how to describe
14:19
Speaker 3: what my reaction is, except this is how I feel.
14:22
Speaker 3: And so I'm trying to protect the people of my state.
14:26
Speaker 3: and protect the people of the city of Chicago in
14:30
Speaker 3: every way I can. And some of that has to be,
14:32
Speaker 3: you know, we're going to court and we're winning so far, but,
14:37
Speaker 3: you know, we're.
14:37
Speaker 2: Going to court winning.
14:38
Speaker 3: We're educating people on the ground about knowing their rights
14:41
Speaker 3: and making sure they keep themselves and their neighbors safe.
14:46
Speaker 3: We're also asking people to, you know, video and everything
14:50
Speaker 3: they see as evidence for cases too. And then finally,
14:55
Speaker 3: show up and peacefully protest is an American right and
14:59
Speaker 3: responsibility indeed when you think that rights are being taken away.
15:02
Speaker 2: So I don't know.
15:03
Speaker 3: That's how I react, and I haven't really thought about
15:07
Speaker 3: a strategy for it.
15:08
Speaker 2: It's just how I feel.
15:09
Speaker 6: Are there tweets? Are there public statements hurting them or
15:12
Speaker 6: helping them in court?
15:13
Speaker 2: You're talking about ICE and DHS?
15:16
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.
15:16
Speaker 6: I mean, is that coming into these cases?
15:18
Speaker 2: It is.
15:18
Speaker 3: In fact, this morning, the judge basically questioned the credibility again.
15:25
Speaker 3: This is a different case than the National Guard case.
15:30
Speaker 3: This is the case that was brought privately against ICE,
15:33
Speaker 3: and there's a TRO on ICE. And this morning, the
15:37
Speaker 3: judge essentially said, I want all ICE officers with body
15:40
Speaker 3: cameras from now on because what they're saying is incredible.
15:44
Speaker 2: And we're getting evidence that what they're saying is false.
15:47
Speaker 3: So even in court, you know, that now that we–
15:50
Speaker 3: and she cited in particular videos that she had seen.
15:54
Speaker 5: So, you know, you mentioned a few minutes ago that,
15:57
Speaker 5: you know, you're not hearing very much from this administration.
16:01
Speaker 6: Directly.
16:03
Speaker 5: Yesterday, it was pretty notable, Zoran Mamdani went on Fox
16:06
Speaker 5: News and he tried to speak directly to the president.
16:08
Speaker 5: He went direct to the camera and said, Trump, if
16:11
Speaker 5: you're listening, and kind of tried to get his message
16:14
Speaker 5: out there. Have you considered doing something like that if
16:17
Speaker 5: you feel like maybe Trump isn't, and I've heard you
16:21
Speaker 5: on other podcasts say that you think that Trump is
16:23
Speaker 5: getting information filtered through folks like Kristi Noem and Stephen Miller.
16:27
Speaker 7: Have you considered going directly through something like Vox?
16:31
Speaker 3: I haven't, but I've been communicated a whole lot and
16:36
Speaker 3: made sure that people know my message, which, you know,
16:39
Speaker 3: is a message to the president. It's also a message
16:42
Speaker 3: about what the administration is doing. But I've said directly, like, listen,
16:46
Speaker 3: if you believe that there, that we need help, and
16:49
Speaker 3: I do too, by the way, that we always need
16:51
Speaker 3: help to fight crime. But this, what you're suggesting doing now,
16:55
Speaker 3: what you are doing now is not helping. And so instead,
16:58
Speaker 3: if you want to help us, please send us civilian
17:01
Speaker 3: law enforcement, FBI, so we can go get the gangs.
17:04
Speaker 3: How about ATF so we can get the guns and DEA?
17:07
Speaker 3: We've got some of those on the ground, and they're terrific.
17:10
Speaker 3: We work with them all the time, and I have
17:11
Speaker 3: it throughout my governorship. But we could always use more.
17:15
Speaker 3: And guns are pouring over the border from surrounding states
17:20
Speaker 3: that don't have similar protections for people, gun safety laws
17:25
Speaker 3: that we do. You know, we ban— assault weapons, for example,
17:29
Speaker 3: in Illinois, but none of the surrounding states do. And
17:32
Speaker 3: so guess what? It's very easy for someone, you know,
17:35
Speaker 3: a bad guy to go across the border and go
17:37
Speaker 3: get one and try to bring it back to Illinois.
17:40
Speaker 3: And we have firearm interdiction task forces that we work
17:45
Speaker 3: with ATF on.
17:47
Speaker 2: We could use more.
17:48
Speaker 3: And so I've said that directly to the camera many,
17:51
Speaker 3: many times on lots of places. I'm not just going on,
17:53
Speaker 3: you know, MSNBC or or, um, you know, uh, whatever
17:57
Speaker 3: left wing or democratic podcast, but, but lots of places.
18:01
Speaker 3: And I, I have to think that the president has
18:03
Speaker 3: seen that. I mean, going on Fox, you know, is
18:06
Speaker 3: just another tactic. So, you know, that's maybe somebody else's choice. Uh,
18:11
Speaker 3: I tend to think that Fox, as you know, everything
18:14
Speaker 3: that they do on Fox is designed to not get
18:18
Speaker 3: true information out there and to not give people a
18:21
Speaker 3: proper platform. So I don't know whether it's on Mondani, uh,
18:24
Speaker 3: will get listened to. But I can tell you, I've
18:28
Speaker 3: not been quiet. Nobody thinks that I haven't been communicative
18:32
Speaker 3: about what we want, what we need, and what we
18:34
Speaker 3: don't want for the city of Chicago and the state.
18:37
Speaker 5: Are you consuming the kind of conservative media that is,
18:40
Speaker 5: you know, in some cases, the conservative media has done these.
18:42
Speaker 7: Ride-alongs with DHS.
18:44
Speaker 5: Have you been paying attention to the conservative media and
18:47
Speaker 5: its coverage of what's going on in Chicago. And what
18:50
Speaker 5: do you think about how the kind of conservative media
18:53
Speaker 5: has been covering what's going on there?
18:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it seeps into my feed, even if I'm
18:57
Speaker 3: not looking for it. And actually, recently, one of those influencers,
19:06
Speaker 3: right-wing influencers, came to my house. This is right after
19:09
Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk was murdered. Came to my house and stood
19:13
Speaker 3: in front of my house, recorded a lengthy video, essentially
19:18
Speaker 3: saying that I am the enemy and that people should
19:22
Speaker 3: understand that I am causing the environment that led to
19:26
Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk's death. Now you can imagine that people who
19:29
Speaker 3: are listening to that might choose to act on that,
19:33
Speaker 3: especially in that environment.
19:35
Speaker 2: Of that week.
19:37
Speaker 3: Uh, and I have to say, um, Those right-wing podcasters,
19:43
Speaker 3: what they're doing is causing danger and potentially fomenting violence.
19:50
Speaker 2: When we had.
19:50
Speaker 3: Texas legislators here in Chicago, when they were trying to
19:55
Speaker 3: avoid the quorum, we had to make sure they were secure.
19:59
Speaker 3: We had them at a hotel in the suburbs, and
20:03
Speaker 3: apparently one of those right-wing influencers discovered where they were.
20:09
Speaker 3: and then posted on his feed where they were and
20:17
Speaker 3: suggested that people might want to come. And so we
20:21
Speaker 3: had to move them.
20:22
Speaker 4: I mean, that doesn't sound that different from what people
20:26
Speaker 4: are doing with ICE agents right now. I mean, there's
20:28
Speaker 4: a whole fight over whether that's allowed, whether Facebook should
20:30
Speaker 4: take it down.
20:31
Speaker 5: Yeah.
20:31
Speaker 3: But look, doxing, I don't think anybody thinks that's a
20:35
Speaker 3: good idea. But But what they're taking down, a lot
20:39
Speaker 3: of what they're taking down is simply critical posts about, like,
20:45
Speaker 3: ICE showed up in this neighborhood, not about the specific individuals.
20:49
Speaker 2: I think we shouldn't have doxing.
20:52
Speaker 3: But I do think that it's okay for people to
20:54
Speaker 3: post about, you know, this neighborhood has been, you know,
20:58
Speaker 3: invaded by ICE or CBP and that they've improperly held people,
21:03
Speaker 3: that sort of thing. But unfortunately— Facebook is not being
21:07
Speaker 3: careful about what they are taking down, and they're just
21:10
Speaker 3: taking whole sites down entirely.
21:13
Speaker 2: So I'm concerned about that. It is very different in
21:16
Speaker 2: my view.
21:17
Speaker 3: What these guys are doing is that they're– these right-wing
21:21
Speaker 3: podcasters anyway is putting people in danger, and that I
21:25
Speaker 3: think should be acted upon. If Facebook is going to
21:28
Speaker 3: do something to stop doxing, they should also stop people.
21:34
Speaker 2: Who are like encouraging– violence.
21:37
Speaker 3: And one other thing that, you know, local media here
21:42
Speaker 3: has been so vitally important for just telling the truth.
21:46
Speaker 3: And some of that gets out into social media.
21:48
Speaker 2: You know, it's traditional media, but it's so close to
21:52
Speaker 2: the subject.
21:53
Speaker 3: These right-wing influencers and others who show up, you know,
21:57
Speaker 3: from somewhere else and they don't really know the city
21:59
Speaker 3: and they don't understand all the dynamics are reporting things
22:03
Speaker 3: that just aren't accurate and or they take a little
22:05
Speaker 3: segment and try to make it seem like that's the
22:07
Speaker 3: whole city. Our local media here have done actually a
22:10
Speaker 3: really good job of covering the broad swath of what's.
22:14
Speaker 2: Really going on.
22:15
Speaker 3: You know, I think you mentioned that you had seen
22:17
Speaker 3: some video maybe of, you know, of a protest here
22:20
Speaker 3: or there.
22:21
Speaker 2: It's true. There's sometimes a.
22:22
Speaker 3: Protest gets out of hand and we have local law
22:24
Speaker 3: enforcement that are helping to deal with that. You can
22:26
Speaker 3: imagine the very small Broadview, Illinois police force. That's not
22:31
Speaker 3: in Chicago. That's where the ICE facility is. 31 people
22:34
Speaker 3: belong to that police force. You know, they have to
22:36
Speaker 3: cover all those shifts of 31 people. And now they
22:38
Speaker 3: got this, you know, a couple hundred people protesting every day.
22:41
Speaker 3: They needed help.
22:43
Speaker 2: And so we have.
22:45
Speaker 3: State law enforcement, county law enforcement working with that local
22:48
Speaker 3: law enforcement. So we're doing our part to keep people safe.
22:52
Speaker 3: You know, it's the right-wing podcasters and those who are,
22:56
Speaker 3: you know, intending to cause mayhem on the ground are— are,
23:01
Speaker 3: you know, seeping into these environments and causing real problems.
23:10
Speaker 5: Well, we have a lot more that we want to
23:12
Speaker 5: get to with Governor Pritzker, but we have to take
23:15
Speaker 5: a short break.
23:16
Speaker 7: So we'll be right back with more after this.
23:27
Speaker 5: Chicago, it's the home city of former President Barack Obama.
23:32
Speaker 5: I was looking the other day at a picture of
23:34
Speaker 5: his presidential library.
23:35
Speaker 7: Which is going to be there.
23:36
Speaker 5: I mean, have you spoken with him? Have you heard
23:39
Speaker 5: from him since this all began?
23:42
Speaker 3: When you say this all began, I have spoken with
23:44
Speaker 3: him since Trump took office. But since, let's say, August,
23:49
Speaker 3: early August, when we started to see the effort to
23:52
Speaker 3: to invade Chicago with ICE and with the Federalized National Guard.
23:59
Speaker 3: I have not spoken with him since then. I've spoken
24:01
Speaker 3: with a lot of other people and certainly people around
24:03
Speaker 3: him and tried to get as much advice as I
24:07
Speaker 3: can about how to react to this. In fact, just
24:10
Speaker 3: this morning and just a couple of hours ago, I
24:14
Speaker 3: was together with and held a press conference with, but
24:16
Speaker 3: I had a meeting beforehand with a group of generals who,
24:21
Speaker 3: National Guard and generals from the Army and Rear Admiral
24:25
Speaker 3: as well, to get advice from them about how to
24:29
Speaker 3: talk about what Trump is trying to do and what
24:33
Speaker 3: the real impact is on the military in terms of readiness,
24:38
Speaker 3: in terms of retention. These are real challenges because Donald
24:43
Speaker 3: Trump is trying to engage them in a political ploy
24:48
Speaker 3: and using National Guard and other troops as a way
24:52
Speaker 3: to frighten the people of the United States in great
24:56
Speaker 3: American cities. And that's not what people signed up for.
24:59
Speaker 3: And that's what these generals were kind of reiterating to me,
25:03
Speaker 3: their real concern about our national security as a result
25:06
Speaker 3: of what Donald Trump is doing.
25:07
Speaker 4: Do you feel like this, what a crazy experience this
25:10
Speaker 4: must have been for you? I mean, I don't, this
25:11
Speaker 4: isn't what, this sort of isn't what anybody signs up for.
25:14
Speaker 4: And I'm curious, like, I guess in some sense, what
25:17
Speaker 4: you've learned. I think that you've had to change your
25:20
Speaker 4: style of communicating to some degree, your style of governing
25:23
Speaker 4: amid this kind of crisis where you're at odds with
25:26
Speaker 4: the federal government. Is there stuff you feel like you've
25:30
Speaker 4: learned here?
25:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, Ben, I took office in January of 2019. And
25:36
Speaker 3: I would remind you, the other day, my chief of
25:39
Speaker 3: staff and I were kind of lamenting that in my
25:42
Speaker 3: six and a half years in office, how many months
25:46
Speaker 3: Can we count that were precedented times, not unprecedented? And
25:50
Speaker 3: the answer was maybe eight. Because I came in, there
25:54
Speaker 3: was a, not only was Donald Trump in office, but
25:57
Speaker 3: also there was a budget crisis for the state of
26:00
Speaker 3: Illinois that I had to overcome in my first year
26:03
Speaker 3: in office.
26:03
Speaker 2: And then finished that year and COVID.
26:06
Speaker 3: And then let's say a year, year and a half
26:08
Speaker 3: into COVID and all that's unprecedented. started the wave of
26:13
Speaker 3: migrants being sent from Texas to Chicago. And, you know,
26:17
Speaker 3: and then, of course, we have Trump back in office now,
26:20
Speaker 3: which feels like COVID or like all the other unprecedented times.
26:24
Speaker 2: So have I learned anything?
26:25
Speaker 3: You know, the answer is you can't help but learn
26:28
Speaker 3: when you face all the challenges that we have, how
26:31
Speaker 3: to overcome them. But in terms of communication strategy, the
26:35
Speaker 3: thing that I guess I would take and I would
26:38
Speaker 3: point you back to is during COVID, what was very
26:42
Speaker 3: important to me, and I think in terms of just
26:44
Speaker 3: governance important, was even though we didn't know everything every
26:50
Speaker 3: day about what we needed to do, all of us,
26:53
Speaker 3: because the science hadn't caught up with the disease, I
26:58
Speaker 3: wanted to make sure that whatever facts we had, that
27:01
Speaker 3: we put them out there to the public as fast
27:03
Speaker 3: as possible. So people, because people are confused, they're concerned,
27:07
Speaker 3: you know, this is back in COVID, confused, concerned, afraid.
27:11
Speaker 3: And the more you can reassure them that they know
27:14
Speaker 3: everything or that we're giving them everything we know, I
27:17
Speaker 3: think it gives people at least some foundation to stand upon.
27:22
Speaker 3: Same thing is true and same thing was true with
27:25
Speaker 3: the migrant crisis. Same thing is true now with the
27:28
Speaker 3: Trump crisis of National Guard and ICE in the city's
27:33
Speaker 3: Whatever we know, when we know it, if we can,
27:35
Speaker 3: you know, if it's factual and we can put it
27:39
Speaker 3: out there, that's what I want to do. And I
27:41
Speaker 3: think that's communicating well and quickly, but factually is probably
27:48
Speaker 3: the biggest thing that I've, I don't know if I've
27:50
Speaker 3: learned it, but it's the biggest thing and most important
27:52
Speaker 3: thing I can do in a crisis.
27:54
Speaker 4: That sometimes seems like it really disrupts the Trump people too.
27:57
Speaker 4: Like when you, I think you announced that Kristi Noem
27:59
Speaker 4: was coming to town and told people to hide their pets.
28:03
Speaker 6: I mean, is that part of the strategy?
28:05
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that particular comment, I mean, I guess we
28:08
Speaker 3: were mocking in that regard. But yeah, part of the
28:11
Speaker 3: strategy was to make sure that in that case, it was,
28:16
Speaker 3: we knew that she was coming to say things that
28:18
Speaker 3: were untrue.
28:19
Speaker 2: We just knew that.
28:20
Speaker 3: And she was coming to talk about the criminal immigrants
28:24
Speaker 3: and how they need to go after the thousands of
28:29
Speaker 3: Tren de Aragua, you know, that are, and she went
28:31
Speaker 3: to Springfield, Illinois to do it. And she did it
28:35
Speaker 3: standing in front of the governor's mansion. Like really, that's
28:38
Speaker 3: not where Tren de Aragua are, if they are anywhere.
28:42
Speaker 3: And second, it turns out they've arrested, well, one person
28:47
Speaker 3: legitimately in the city of Chicago who is part of
28:49
Speaker 3: Tren de Aragua so far. So they've claimed other things
28:53
Speaker 3: and then they've had to go back on it. So yeah,
28:56
Speaker 3: I mean, when she came and again, whenever we know,
29:00
Speaker 3: you know, that they're about to issue something that's false, uh,
29:04
Speaker 3: we try to call it out as that. And then
29:07
Speaker 3: afterward to try to clean up the mess that they've
29:09
Speaker 3: left behind with their falsehoods.
29:12
Speaker 5: So governor, we know that you, uh, you have a
29:14
Speaker 5: hard out very soon. Sadly, we can't do this forever,
29:17
Speaker 5: even though it's a podcast, we could keep going for
29:19
Speaker 5: hours and hours, but you've got a few things that
29:21
Speaker 5: you've got to handle. Um, One of the things that we–
29:25
Speaker 5: that a lot of people are really interested in that
29:27
Speaker 5: we talk about and that's changed our politics a lot
29:29
Speaker 5: recently is the idea that all of our attention is
29:33
Speaker 5: fragmented and there's so much media that everybody is consuming
29:37
Speaker 5: that it's really hard for certain moments to break through
29:41
Speaker 5: and that something that is a big scandal or a
29:43
Speaker 5: big story one day is just totally gone from the
29:46
Speaker 5: news and from the people's attention and memory.
29:49
Speaker 7: The week later.
29:50
Speaker 5: I'm really curious, over the course of the last few weeks,
29:54
Speaker 5: maybe the last few months as this has unfolded, is
29:57
Speaker 5: there a particular media moment, a video, a cable news hit,
30:02
Speaker 5: one of your tweets or posts like this Kristi Noem
30:05
Speaker 5: thing that has really broken through that people that you
30:09
Speaker 5: see in real life have seemed to held on to
30:12
Speaker 5: and they seem to remember?
30:14
Speaker 7: Is there something that you can think of?
30:16
Speaker 3: Wow. One thing you want me to mention, I mean,
30:18
Speaker 3: I guess I would say this. In this instant last
30:22
Speaker 3: two months, let's say, two and a half months. Probably
30:26
Speaker 3: the first and biggest thing that broke through was when
30:31
Speaker 3: I went out and held a press conference on a
30:33
Speaker 3: water taxi on the river, you know, showing the beauty
30:38
Speaker 3: of the city of Chicago and pushing back on the
30:40
Speaker 3: idea that there's a war zone that the president was
30:43
Speaker 3: talking about. And then I think to go along with that,
30:46
Speaker 3: what also broke through was we held a press conference
30:50
Speaker 3: later just after that, with business leaders and pastors and
30:57
Speaker 3: nonprofit organization leaders and elected officials. And we did it together.
31:03
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, it was really a cross
31:05
Speaker 3: section of the entire city represented at this press conference.
31:09
Speaker 3: And I think that was surprising to everybody that, you know,
31:12
Speaker 3: that so many different types of people standing together to
31:16
Speaker 3: say to Donald Trump, please don't send troops here.
31:19
Speaker 2: We don't want troops. We have other things we'd like,
31:22
Speaker 2: you know.
31:22
Speaker 3: Help us with housing, help us with health care, help
31:25
Speaker 3: us with fighting crime with civilian law enforcement.
31:27
Speaker 2: But please don't send troops here. We don't want them.
31:30
Speaker 2: We don't need them. That broke through.
31:32
Speaker 3: I know that sounds, you know, maybe, you know, you
31:35
Speaker 3: like to think the Kimmel, you know, you know, moment did.
31:40
Speaker 2: And maybe that did.
31:41
Speaker 3: But I think that that was a big one that
31:44
Speaker 3: people kind of began to see. that our city is
31:48
Speaker 3: really gorgeous, that we stand together, that the president is
31:52
Speaker 3: lying when he says that it's exploded somehow. And so
31:58
Speaker 3: I think that's what I can point to. We don't
32:01
Speaker 3: sit around and think like, let's try to come up
32:03
Speaker 3: with a viral moment. We are thinking about how do
32:06
Speaker 3: we best communicate to people what's really going on and
32:10
Speaker 3: make sure that it's credible. Because, you know, I think
32:13
Speaker 3: the contrast between their lies and us putting out credible information,
32:19
Speaker 3: just it feels like that's the right.
32:21
Speaker 2: Way to go.
32:21
Speaker 3: And it was what we did during COVID. And it's
32:24
Speaker 3: what we're doing now during this crisis.
32:26
Speaker 4: That is what struck me so much about that tweet
32:28
Speaker 4: that Tricia left up that, you know, mischaracterizes the video.
32:32
Speaker 4: I guess there's this question, like, does it actually matter
32:34
Speaker 4: if you get things right? Can you just put something
32:36
Speaker 4: false out and move on?
32:38
Speaker 3: Well, they obviously think that you can, if you just
32:40
Speaker 3: tell a lie enough times, right? That old expression about
32:45
Speaker 3: a lie can make it all the way around the
32:47
Speaker 3: world before the truth can lace up its sneakers. And
32:52
Speaker 3: it's true. I mean, it's true that that is what
32:54
Speaker 3: they believe. And they tell the lie over and over
32:57
Speaker 3: again so that people will maybe believe it. You know,
33:01
Speaker 3: eating dogs and cats on the streets in Ohio, you know,
33:05
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. So, you know, it does work sometimes,
33:08
Speaker 3: but it only works if no one's really pushing back. Right.
33:13
Speaker 3: And you're not doing it in a way that's credible
33:15
Speaker 3: and that people are listening because they know you're a
33:18
Speaker 3: credible source.
33:19
Speaker 2: So that's what we're trying to be.
33:21
Speaker 5: Well, Governor, we know that you you have to go.
33:23
Speaker 5: You've been very generous with your time. Ben did have
33:25
Speaker 5: one fun question that he wanted to end with. I
33:27
Speaker 5: know that there's a lot of you have a lot
33:28
Speaker 5: of other things going on. But Ben, what did you
33:31
Speaker 5: have that you wanted to ask the governor?
33:33
Speaker 6: I do feel I should ask.
33:34
Speaker 4: There's obviously a story going around that you had a
33:39
Speaker 4: good year at the blackjack table last year. And I
33:42
Speaker 4: guess I was curious if you bet on the Bears,
33:45
Speaker 4: if you're betting on them this season.
33:47
Speaker 2: Thank you for asking that.
33:49
Speaker 3: I always, when you say betting on, I don't actually
33:53
Speaker 3: bet on it because I regulate that industry in the
33:56
Speaker 3: state So I don't bet on the bears.
33:59
Speaker 2: Not, not, not, not here in Illinois.
34:02
Speaker 3: Or I really don't place those bets anywhere, but I,
34:06
Speaker 3: but I am always rooting for the bears, honestly. And actually,
34:09
Speaker 3: thank goodness. They kind of picked up. We had two
34:12
Speaker 3: bad games to start out the season. We've had a
34:14
Speaker 3: couple of good games. And so I'm, I'm pleased. Bears
34:18
Speaker 3: have not been terrific over the last, well, not for
34:21
Speaker 3: quite a while. And I think Caleb is picking it
34:27
Speaker 3: up for us. So I'm excited about the rest of
34:29
Speaker 3: the season.
34:30
Speaker 2: All right.
34:30
Speaker 6: Well, thank you so much for taking the time, Governor.
34:32
Speaker 6: We really appreciate it.
34:46
Speaker 5: So Ben, I thought that was a really interesting interview.
34:50
Speaker 5: I thought, uh, he was pretty game to answer some
34:53
Speaker 5: of our questions though, as our producer this week, Manny
34:56
Speaker 5: pointed out, the bears are not a good team to, uh,
34:59
Speaker 5: to bet on. So presumably his, uh, his 1.4 million
35:03
Speaker 5: didn't come from that, but we had, we covered a
35:04
Speaker 5: few more interesting things besides, uh, besides the, uh, the bears, uh,
35:08
Speaker 5: Chicago bears, which is, uh, you know, I thought he
35:11
Speaker 5: had some really interesting things to say about their media strategy,
35:14
Speaker 5: which kind of surprised me, but Ben, You booked the governor.
35:18
Speaker 5: You managed to flip this from being a newsletter interview
35:21
Speaker 5: into a 30-minute conversation, which was really fascinating. What did
35:24
Speaker 5: you think about what Pritzker had to say about navigating
35:27
Speaker 5: this kind of media moment while kind of in this
35:31
Speaker 5: very pitched battle with the federal government?
35:34
Speaker 6: Yeah, I would say I really appreciate it.
35:36
Speaker 4: I actually thought that if I was him, I'm not
35:39
Speaker 4: sure I would have taken the time to talk to
35:41
Speaker 4: us about communications because he's just so in.
35:43
Speaker 2: It right now, right?
35:44
Speaker 6: I mean, he's just in the middle of a very intense...
35:46
Speaker 6: Can I just cut you off there?
35:48
Speaker 7: Don't say that.
35:49
Speaker 5: Don't say that people shouldn't come and do this while
35:53
Speaker 5: they're in the middle of something. They should absolutely come
35:55
Speaker 5: and talk to our podcast while they're in the middle
35:57
Speaker 5: of managing a big national news story.
36:00
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, in any case, but it was an amazing portrait,
36:02
Speaker 4: I think, of somebody just who is absolutely right in
36:05
Speaker 4: the middle of it, who's thinking it through on the fly.
36:06
Speaker 4: I mean, it was actually, it was a feature of
36:08
Speaker 4: this shifting moment that I was talking to his team
36:10
Speaker 4: about doing an interview with him for a column about
36:13
Speaker 4: how you kind of communicate against Trump in a way.
36:17
Speaker 4: And at some point in our conversation, it just becomes obvious, like,
36:19
Speaker 4: why would you just have a phone interview?
36:21
Speaker 6: Obviously, it should be a video. Obviously, it should be
36:23
Speaker 6: a podcast.
36:24
Speaker 4: Would be a waste of their time, waste of our
36:25
Speaker 4: time not to do it in that way, which is
36:27
Speaker 4: its own kind of evolution of our business, of reporting.
36:31
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess to me, though, the thing that
36:33
Speaker 4: I'm taking away from that that struck me most was
36:34
Speaker 4: the governor saying to his citizens, videotape everything.
36:38
Speaker 6: Just the sort of his sense that.
36:41
Speaker 4: that these kind of ubiquitous filming and that we want
36:45
Speaker 4: body cams on cops and that being the remedy is like,
36:48
Speaker 4: that is the thing that has, he feels is shifting
36:52
Speaker 4: the tide. And I think if you see these videos
36:54
Speaker 4: coming out of Chicago, the ones that aren't produced by
36:57
Speaker 4: the Department of Homeland Security, what you see are these
36:59
Speaker 4: kind of, honestly, kind of like scared ICE agents being
37:02
Speaker 4: screamed at by people as they tackle, you know, teenagers
37:07
Speaker 4: and line cooks and people who are not obviously committing
37:11
Speaker 4: any kind of crime.
37:12
Speaker 6: Although, you know, as I said, I think who are,
37:14
Speaker 6: it is in.
37:15
Speaker 4: Their remit to arrest undocumented immigrants. But these videos don't
37:20
Speaker 4: make you think, wow, this federal government's doing a great
37:22
Speaker 4: job and we really want these guys here. And I
37:25
Speaker 4: think that seems to be what's turning the tide.
37:27
Speaker 7: We wrote about this.
37:28
Speaker 5: I wrote about this for the intro for our newsletter
37:30
Speaker 5: last week as I was kind of searching around for
37:32
Speaker 5: something to write about that didn't have to do with
37:35
Speaker 5: Barry Weiss, which seems like all of our colleagues in
37:37
Speaker 5: the media reporting world are fascinated with, obsessed with. It
37:40
Speaker 5: does strike me that the defining media story of this,
37:47
Speaker 5: of the first year of Trump's administration, it's not like, oh,
37:51
Speaker 5: you know, Democrats getting into, you know, podcasting or whatever,
37:55
Speaker 5: trying to catch up, whatever. It is really the fact
37:57
Speaker 5: that there is a new viral video every single day
38:02
Speaker 5: in different states, you know, where where the federal government,
38:06
Speaker 5: where ICE or, you know, the National Guard, in some cases,
38:09
Speaker 5: National Guard are coming up against, you know, people who
38:13
Speaker 5: are very upset.
38:14
Speaker 7: And these videos exist on on both sides.
38:16
Speaker 5: Obviously, the vast majority are these these videos that are
38:19
Speaker 5: trying to document what people perceive as these abuses by ICE.
38:24
Speaker 5: But then, of course, on the other side, you do
38:25
Speaker 5: have the benny johnson's and the you know kind of
38:28
Speaker 5: conservative media figures who are doing a dr phil were
38:31
Speaker 5: like riding along with dhs and and and making their
38:34
Speaker 5: own kind of content which is which they're also um
38:37
Speaker 5: putting out there and it does strike me that this
38:39
Speaker 5: is really really shaping how people think about things in
38:43
Speaker 5: a way that we don't fully understand yet and it
38:45
Speaker 5: is putting a visual to this concept that Democrats are
38:49
Speaker 5: trying to put out that Trump and, you know, and
38:52
Speaker 5: the right are engaged in this authoritarian project.
38:54
Speaker 7: They're the face of this.
38:56
Speaker 5: Yeah.
38:56
Speaker 4: And I guess it's the thing that is very hard
38:58
Speaker 4: to measure, essentially, is, you know, how many people's, you know,
39:01
Speaker 4: do we have a world in which you have one
39:03
Speaker 4: set of Americans whose feeds are these masked agents roughing
39:06
Speaker 4: people up who don't seem to have done anything wrong visibly?
39:09
Speaker 6: But then half of.
39:10
Speaker 4: Americans feeds are essentially, you know, sense from the point
39:13
Speaker 4: of view of ICE agents who are trying to do
39:15
Speaker 4: their jobs that are being screamed at and having things
39:17
Speaker 4: thrown at them. Because I think that's what you see
39:19
Speaker 4: if you watch Fox. I mean, I think my anecdotal sense,
39:23
Speaker 4: and obviously Pritzker's, is that there's just something about these–
39:27
Speaker 4: it looks like often kind of underprepared, under-trained. masked guys
39:32
Speaker 4: chasing people around CVS stores that is just very unsettling
39:37
Speaker 4: for a lot of Americans. And clearly that's why Pritzker
39:40
Speaker 4: is asking everybody in Chicago to film everything all the time.
39:42
Speaker 7: It's really, really interesting.
39:44
Speaker 5: The other thing that surprised me about what he had
39:46
Speaker 5: to say was this idea that The moments that he
39:51
Speaker 5: said had really resonated with people and, you know, he
39:54
Speaker 5: was on the spot. So I think he was kind
39:55
Speaker 5: of just saying whatever came to mind from him was
39:58
Speaker 5: actually the traditional media. I mean, some stunts that he
40:01
Speaker 5: that he did, you know, these press this press conference
40:04
Speaker 5: on the boats in Chicago, which I think they invited
40:06
Speaker 5: some influencers and stuff, too. But he talked about like
40:09
Speaker 5: traditional moments, which were like these press conference moments that
40:13
Speaker 5: it's with business leaders or whatever.
40:14
Speaker 7: And that that's that was the kind of stuff.
40:16
Speaker 5: That had seemed to resonate in the community. Did you
40:19
Speaker 5: think that that was something, an interesting answer? Or do
40:21
Speaker 5: you think it was, he was just thinking about like
40:23
Speaker 5: the thing that he did?
40:24
Speaker 4: Or was that like a little interlude from the Chicago
40:26
Speaker 4: Tourism Promotion Board? Maybe a little of both. I mean,
40:30
Speaker 4: I think what's so interesting with him is he's basically
40:32
Speaker 4: a very conventional politician. He's a guy who, you know,
40:35
Speaker 4: has done very straight up the middle democratic stuff for
40:39
Speaker 4: his career, who's, I think, you know, essentially, I think,
40:42
Speaker 4: you know, wants to be a normal governor, doing normal
40:45
Speaker 4: governor stuff. and has been swept into this insane media
40:49
Speaker 4: world that we live in, and is adapting to it
40:51
Speaker 4: pretty effectively.
40:52
Speaker 6: I think that's something that.
40:53
Speaker 4: People sometimes miss, you know, as these media changes, the
40:57
Speaker 4: ways of communication change, and you'll hear people say, wow,
40:59
Speaker 4: the Republicans, Donald Trump, they've like figured out this new
41:02
Speaker 4: media and this new way to communicate, and the Democrats
41:05
Speaker 4: and their opponents will never catch up. But actually, like,
41:07
Speaker 4: every 11-year-old in America has figured it out, too. And
41:10
Speaker 4: even the Democrats at some point do catch up pretty fast.
41:13
Speaker 4: I think what you're seeing essentially is this very rapid
41:16
Speaker 4: evolution where they reach parity. I was going to say
41:19
Speaker 4: one other thing that I like very kind of positively
41:21
Speaker 4: surprised me was just, I mean, it didn't surprise me,
41:23
Speaker 4: but I was glad he said it.
41:25
Speaker 6: Like local news reporters on.
41:26
Speaker 4: The ground in Chicago, just doing a great job and
41:29
Speaker 4: being so important to finding some level of ground truth
41:32
Speaker 4: that people can agree on that isn't a video out
41:35
Speaker 4: of context, or often that is providing the context for
41:38
Speaker 4: that video. And I was like kind of pleased to
41:41
Speaker 4: hear that that is where he's kind of ultimately getting
41:43
Speaker 4: his information.
41:44
Speaker 5: The one last thing that I wanted to end on
41:46
Speaker 5: that I thought was interesting was the way in which
41:49
Speaker 5: Pritzker wanted to put some space between himself and Gavin
41:53
Speaker 5: Newsom and said, hey, you know, what Gavin is doing
41:58
Speaker 5: is interesting, but that's just not who I am. And
42:00
Speaker 5: it feels like a very serious moment. I mean, it
42:02
Speaker 5: wasn't necessarily a swipe, but it was clearly a sign
42:05
Speaker 5: that he felt very differently about the tone of the moment.
42:08
Speaker 5: And that was just not a tactic that he wanted
42:11
Speaker 5: to embrace. And he said he didn't think it was funny.
42:13
Speaker 5: I don't think that Newsom thinks that these things are
42:15
Speaker 5: particularly funny either, but his team, his communications team has
42:18
Speaker 5: tried a whole bunch of stuff to kind of make
42:20
Speaker 5: light of some of these moments, including doing AI stuff
42:24
Speaker 5: of J.D.
42:25
Speaker 2: Vance.
42:25
Speaker 5: And I think it's maybe possible that Pritzker was on here,
42:29
Speaker 5: you know, as he is thinking about what his future
42:31
Speaker 5: might be like. I don't know why else he would
42:32
Speaker 5: want to do the most important media podcast in the country,
42:36
Speaker 5: but we certainly appreciated having him on.
42:38
Speaker 7: So, Ben, thank you so much.
42:40
Speaker 6: Yeah, this was great. Thanks for scrambling to a mic.
42:49
Speaker 1: Thanks again to Max Tani and Ben Smith of Semaphore
42:51
Speaker 1: and the team at the Mixed Signals podcast for letting
42:54
Speaker 1: us share this with you. I tune into the show
42:55
Speaker 1: every week. You can subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify.
42:59
Speaker 1: They're also on YouTube. The show comes out every Friday.
43:04
Speaker 1: Today's episode from Mixed Signals was produced by Manny Fidel
43:07
Speaker 1: with special thanks to Josh Billinson, Chad Lewis, Rachel Oppenheim,
43:11
Speaker 1: Anna Pizzino, Garrett Wiley, Jules Zern, and Tori Kor. The
43:15
Speaker 1: theme music is by Billy Libby. Their public editor is
43:18
Speaker 1: Benny Johnson. Thanks to Question Everything's associate producer, Kevin Shepard,
43:22
Speaker 1: managing editor, Kevin Sullivan, sound designer and mixer, Brendan Baker,
43:25
Speaker 1: and our communications and PR rep, Megan Ellingboe, for putting
43:28
Speaker 1: together this episode. Our partners at KCRW include Arnie Seipel,
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Speaker 1: Tejla Jamera, Natalie Hill, and Jennifer Farrow. Thanks for listening.
43:36
Speaker 2: We'll see you next Thursday.