Latest / Carne Cruda Podcast / Derroteros: El Poder, con Inés García y Paula Ducay, PUNZADAS (CARNE CRUDA EXTRA)

Transcript

Derroteros: El Poder, con Inés García y Paula Ducay, PUNZADAS (CARNE CRUDA EXTRA) · Carne Cruda Podcast

0:06
Farewell is also going course pergarlo well way in the middle direction taken to reach
0:12
the end, proposed a set of data that indicate the way to reach a
0:16
place. I think we are going direction that is given in writing for Maria
0:21
Day of Aleman good end of a book that contains a defeat then in line
0:27
marked on the map of tides to guide the pilots, it escapes or course
0:37
let rote courses ros think walking with indes Garcia and Paula Ancay, punctures that
0:46
give it punctures and thread how well you are well and you well a bit
0:52
adhered to or maybe I have allergy or all the evils of the world if
0:56
suddenly I have a terrible energy you need information about this energy. All of
1:03
a sudden you' re also told about the flight. In that case,
1:07
I can also do great traffic work because nothing. Today we come to talk
1:11
about power, but a very concrete thing. We wanted to talk about the
1:17
idea that we exercise power where they let us exercise it, that is,
1:23
we think of these people who are being subdued or subjugated in a power relationship.
1:26
We can think of many examples and they themselves exercise power also over other
1:30
people who are vulnerable, that is, the vulnerable, exercising power over the
1:34
vulnerable. We wanted to talk about this. There is a very typical example
1:37
that everyone can understand, which is when a person ascends into a company and
1:40
begins to behave with others, as his boss behaved. With him there are
1:44
wonderful bosses who not so much the majority could say the same. And this
1:48
happens. Not good, Javier' s boss,' cause he' s
1:51
gonna take care of him. Well, we' re our own bosses,
1:53
too. Yeah, yeah, but by the way, power itself clear,
1:56
I exercise the Brothers over Paula. Yes, we exercise mutual power. Well,
2:00
if you sometimes exercise the car, the power of self- exploitation as
2:06
of exploiting others. That is the agenda for all the self- employed.
2:08
I believe yes, then there are obvious power exercises in society that everyone,
2:13
well they will sound. Evidently, for example, men over women, who
2:15
have resources and money against those who do not. What we said in companies
2:20
or in organizations, those who rule, those who care, those who command,
2:23
And we could even think about them in ecological terms, the power that
2:28
we humans exert, over animals, over our environment. Well, with the
2:30
subject of exploitation, it also occurs in this field and this exercise of power
2:34
and this domination, because it is everywhere, it is something very human and
2:38
as far as people are concerned, we have some power and control. There
2:40
is this temptation to abuse him, to crush those below him, and to
2:45
become small tyrants in our personal and professional lives. I mean, I think
2:47
it' s a drive that everyone has felt at some point and that we
2:51
have to try, well, relax it. I don' t know if
2:54
you' ll talk about it, but you' ve seen the film,
2:59
the experiment not that it speaks of this class, sociological experiment of putting some
3:05
people in a prison, some as jailers and others as prisoners, and seeing
3:09
how they react and how they act among themselves. And jailers end up becoming
3:12
tyrants and end up mistreating, torturing people who are like prisoners. Well,
3:19
that' s a good movie we signed up for, because it' s
3:23
just what we came to talk about. Power is given in personal, family,
3:24
good, loving relationships of all kinds, and today' s idea is
3:28
that we exercise power where they leave us, and sometimes that involves exercising it
3:30
badly over people who are very vulnerable or in a situation similar to us.
3:36
We have thought that this issue of power is obviously given a lot in fiction.
3:39
Just what you were saying and we have come up with a very obvious
3:43
example that everyone will know that it is the calis and in a game of
3:46
thrones the mother puts that you start two, of course they sell it there
3:49
mayor drug. It starts by being subdued and then I don' t know
3:52
if you' ve seen at the end of the game between thrones, but
3:55
it ends up good at doing bad things. She doesn' t turn herself
3:58
into a tyrant And this happens to me It' s an anecdote that'
4:01
s kind of funny. The only two months she works in a company,
4:03
a classic company, my boss had an apple, the cell phone that every
4:08
time she shakes it, a whip comes out, that is, the sound
4:10
of a serious whip. Yeah, it was like funny jaja stoso is done
4:14
in an ironic way but actually, the clear thing is where it' s
4:17
clear. Sure, I mean, it was funny, but then of course.
4:19
If this person, because he exploits the employees, you say" fuck
4:24
" the whip was serious, you wouldn' t like to have a real
4:26
good one, there are many companies no longer with the sound of whip,
4:29
which would perhaps be too much. But if there is an alarm or a
4:30
sound that when you get up from the company, in some production companies to
4:34
the farm, sounds alarm that this person is not in their job. You
4:40
have a very limited and determined time to go to the toilet to do your
4:45
needs, but you have to come back before that time meets, because if
4:46
you don' t cry weapons again, what a horrible horror indeed. I
4:48
was hiding in the bathroom to cry, not to cry, but you almost
4:53
know like. I need a break from looking at so many extremities I'
4:57
m going to the bathroom with my cell phone for a while this while it
5:00
sounded yes, while it sounded like the whip. Just totally, because today,
5:02
in this course, we wanted to put some examples of this way of
5:06
exercising the power over which you can through social classes, mothers and daughters,
5:12
lovers or friends. We' re not doing this tour. Yes well,
5:14
I' m going to start by telling you how this power is exercised among
5:19
different social classes and I read a text that I recommend a lot. I
5:21
think it' s published in context, but also on Dialnet. I found
5:25
it that it is the source of information that I carry genetically embedded in my
5:29
brain, which is called to you are to be, which is simply saying
5:32
I am against feminism, what about my writing it Nuria alabao and the author
5:38
wonders further, it is super well written and super clear, super accessible.
5:42
Why most feminist achievements do not reach poor women or even often seek to criminalize
5:46
them from their point of view. And he does a review. Few policies
5:50
are made from feminism that think about improving the living conditions of those below.
5:57
He says that in most policies they are designed and actually for and by middle
6:00
and upper class, and he gives examples of areas where there is usually no
6:05
impact, for example, progress that has to do with caring improvements in the
6:10
labour rights of domestic workers, which is true that things have been done,
6:13
but much remains to be done. Or the universality and gratuitousness of children'
6:16
s schools, which are things that would change the lives of many women.
6:20
It says that what doesn' t have to do with sexuality or violence,
6:25
glass ceilings or symbolic policies has less chance of getting into the agenda. That
6:30
' s right. So she talks that feminism itself is a social field in
6:32
Gurdie' s terms, which, by the way, is a great author
6:35
to think about power, just like Fuco, that we haven' t brought
6:39
them here. But we highly recommend the symbolic field or symbolic power, the
6:43
Habitus and all this kind of terms where social meanings are negotiated and disputed.
6:47
In feminism there are also struggles between different types of power. We have economic,
6:53
cultural, social, symbolic power and there are also struggles and I think
6:56
this is fundamental among people who try to make hegemonic, certain speeches or put
7:02
some issues at the center. And also, evidently, feminists who occupy places
7:05
of power or who have a position in a higher social class, have more
7:10
speakers, reach more places and get their issues to become the center of the
7:15
discourse. So, for Nuria praised, feminism is a reflection of the social
7:19
structure and we can differentiate between feminism from above and below. There is a
7:27
feminism that considers society to be okay, but that women need to take up
7:30
decision- making positions, that this could be considered liberal feminism. In this
7:34
case, only a few women benefit that this she talks a lot about quotas
7:40
and all this kind of stuff we don' t want women to occupy places
7:44
in big companies like we talked about yesterday why not say Carmen Calvo type,
7:48
profile, woman who gets to very high positions and that seems like the cool
7:54
of feminism. So am I for a sub- paragraph. I don'
7:56
t know what you think, Javier, but talking to friends who work in
7:59
companies and who have started to do or how we notice that there is like
8:03
a generational difference in this that these women who obviously had to fight to get
8:05
the jobs where they are, like they want the same thing for young women
8:11
and maybe generations now say good. Same. I don' t want this.
8:13
Maybe I want to live my life in another way, not focus so
8:16
much on my work that my job is just my job and it' s
8:18
changed. We believe a little bit that perception of what it means to achieve
8:22
equality. Yes, of course, what I call Tatcher feminism, which I
8:28
put, for example, as what a woman should do in life, what
8:31
she should aspire to is become Margaret Tcher. And it seems to me that
8:35
there are other ways that are much nicer, nicer and more enjoyable to become
8:43
an empowered woman or a woman a position in the world. Yes, moreover,
8:48
that implies a bit also sometimes how to become, that is, to
8:50
behave how men have behaved that perhaps we can find, as I was going
8:54
to say that temente, in the end it is to occupy the position of
8:58
man instead of occupying the position of woman or of what is a human being
9:03
in the end and to occupy a position that I know in a big electrical
9:05
company or all these kinds of things that are have no terrible consequences in other
9:09
areas or, therefore, in the labour rights that you are there. I
9:13
don' t know what kind of advance I mean. Yeah, there'
9:15
s a woman on the management team, but if this company is shit like
9:18
that, you have to go beyond just being there. Yeah. That is
9:20
why the subject of the class, because it is very interesting, clear and
9:24
although it is a debate around the different feminisms, for me liberal feminism is
9:28
almost an eximo in the specie of contradiction in the terms, because liberalism or
9:31
neoliberalism, which is the one that has been imposed as the theoretical and practical
9:35
branch is based on the exploitation of bodies and is based on inequalities and precisely
9:39
takes advantage of the inequality of women. Then talk about liberal feminism. I
9:43
understand that this debate exists from academia and that from liberalism one can, of
9:48
course, defend feminism. But from reality, the neoliberal liberal capitalist system has
9:56
imposed inequality as a form of profit, it goes through everything completely. In
10:01
fact, Nuria Alabao has just one sentence that says that, according to this
10:07
liberal feminism, a basis of the racialized, impoverished and unequal social pyramid is
10:11
left behind. That' s why she defends class- eyed feminism, which
10:16
is just interested in those below and says one of the great issues we face
10:20
from a class feminism is how we can make an interclassist movement like feminism,
10:24
a useful tool for transformation that breaks classism and situates the interests of those below
10:28
in the center. Then he claims this look that seeks not only to occupy
10:37
certain spaces, but to redistribute wealth and power. And from this perspective,
10:41
she talks a lot about this. It is necessary to listen to women who
10:45
have different concerns than you can have and that is why it is important that
10:48
in many groups of discussion and political organization of militancy also occupy important spaces women
10:56
propose from different places within the social classes and say. If we don'
11:01
t want to be subordinated, it' s because we want a world where
11:05
no one has to be, which is a phrase that sums up a little
11:09
bit the idea we wanted to deal with right in this episode, whether you
11:11
don' t want to be subjugated to power or someone to exercise power over
11:15
you, why, why if you want to exercise it over someone else.
11:15
It' s this temptation Paula used to say at first. Of course,
11:18
there is a way to end power or reduce power without exercising power. Sure,
11:24
that' s the big question, that' s a very good question.
11:26
Sure. In the end, it is true that Jolin that all the
11:30
movements have leaders and people who maybe because they progress things in a certain way
11:35
and those people, then, have work teams, thinking about the most practical.
11:37
But of course, we have to look for ways to do this without
11:41
exploiting the rock, even in private life, which is what we will talk
11:43
about later that sometimes cost not in relationships. I don' t know maternal
11:48
or paternal subsidiaries it' s hard not to exercise that power you have over
11:50
your child, which is beneath you in some ways. Then we were wondering
11:54
just this is no good for high- middle- class women to occupy important
11:58
positions in large companies, while others take care of them. Of course,
12:01
the issue of care is very interesting to think about all these issues and we
12:05
wanted to bring some examples of women exercising power in their homes, because in
12:09
the end, well, women have been oppressed. We all know this and
12:11
we were wondering where they can exercise themselves, because where they leave them and
12:16
it is usually the domestic sphere and, in line with this, we wanted
12:20
to recommend a book called Cristina Sánchez Andrade' s famulas, which is one
12:24
of these small booklets of anagram that we always have in our pocket. It
12:26
looks like one that' s orange for people to distinguish, identify. Yes,
12:31
it is a very good book and it is not one of the best
12:33
known in the collection, but we like it because they are testimonies of women
12:37
who clean houses and care for children. Many of them are internal and all
12:41
are migrants. Well this, of course, here in Spain and what they
12:43
tell, besides good that obviously there is a great lack of legal protection around
12:48
their situation and they narrate the testimonies abuses on the part, especially of the
12:52
women of the house, who are, therefore, traditional marriages of men and
12:58
women, and the woman is the one who organizes the tasks the house and
13:00
the one who decides and how it is treated the intern and what is the
13:03
relationship that the family has with her. And if we traditionally consider the house
13:07
as the woman' s kingdom and that these women have been subjected to care,
13:11
cleanliness, etc etc, we might think that they are exercising power over
13:15
a weaker, poorer woman, over whom they can indeed command because with their
13:18
husbands they will exercise power, because they do not. In fact, there
13:22
' s one of the stories that was a girl who looked after an older
13:26
marriage in the moral or looked like a mega rich area and told how the
13:31
woman wouldn' t let her scrub with this house thing as a kingdom,
13:33
suddenly enters an outsider into your house and it' s like the only power
13:37
you' ve ever had, which is to occupy and run that house.
13:41
Suddenly it' s how you do everything wrong, the only one who knows
13:43
how to do this. It' s me and I crushed her in a
13:46
way that ended up throwing her out because I thought she was trying to seduce
13:48
her husband, who was a lord. I think I had to ceymer or
13:50
some kind of disease, just like this thing that you' re being invaded
13:54
by your kingdom, one person the only kingdom you' ve ever been clear
13:56
about. On the other hand, and these women who hire interns, we
14:01
could say that they take a little male role in making decisions that concern the
14:03
domestic and are demanding co- incidents in the worst of the senses There is
14:09
an example that where that type of abuse looks very good, which is that
14:13
Davy Ivan that of Honduras, told that the woman left her stained compress attached
14:18
to the panties so that she would pick it up and thought jo you can
14:20
not even pick up your own compress. It' s a self- evident
14:26
thing, and she was telling an example. Yes, I did. If
14:28
you say something to the woman in the house, the first thing they say
14:31
is I pay you, it' s your turn to do what you have
14:35
to do. That' s very humiliating. It' s not this argument
14:39
of how I' m paying you for some very little money, but it
14:43
wouldn' t matter, because I can send you whatever it is to get
14:46
you to pick up my compress and all this kind of stuff. And there
14:46
' s a class component that' s evident here, because humiliation is kind
14:50
of channeled through that inequality between the inmate and the woman in the house.
14:54
Yes, besides, what you said about the sentence of and if you say
14:58
something to him, it is very good, because Cristina Sánchez Andrade, who
15:01
has an introduction in the book that tells a little why to collect these testimonies
15:05
and why to do it this way, because they are only testimonies. There
15:07
is no conclusion, no reflection. And it was fair, because those women
15:11
can' t talk, they can' t say anything, not even between
15:15
them, because then you can accuse each other or steal jobs, because there
15:18
' s a lot of competition, because it' s a very poor sector
15:22
of women. And well it' s important like this thing that you can
15:24
talk about. That' s also the maid' s story. It is
15:28
reminding me very much of what you speak of humiliation and cruelty as a form
15:31
of submission and a form of distinction between classes. Not she is subjected by
15:37
the lady of the House precisely through games many times of humiliation. You have
15:43
to do this. Even when he sees that he approaches the husband, precisely
15:46
what he does is to look for tricks to undermine his dignity. Of course,
15:52
it was just one of the examples we talked about at home yesterday.
15:54
And, moreover, it is a very good example, because in the story
15:56
of the maid it looks very good that these dynamics of humiliations between women also
16:00
husbands. Men are like in their dome, or part of making state and
16:03
women decisions, and not only wives, but aunts who are called the ones
16:07
who educate the maids. They are also women who, in turn, are
16:12
subject to the system that is created in the state' s gilia, this
16:17
terrifying stofic, and who subject women who are destined as being raised and to
16:21
go to children as rabbits. Very good example of vulnerable against vulnerable, that
16:26
class war that, moreover, is so interesting to the elite that while you
16:27
are fighting down there, we, up here, are calmly smoking pure and
16:32
drinking with Jack absolutely because in this sense we wanted to recommend an article that
16:37
is called women, migrants and care work transformations of the domestic sector in Spain,
16:42
which is by Magdalena Díaz and Raquel Martínez Buján and they explain that many
16:47
times what is done when a woman goes to work outside the home, is
16:51
all those activities that were part of the interior and reproductive work are externalized and
16:56
they comment that this is what makes replicate the model of more traditional family organization,
17:00
because the tasks are kept inside the home and in women' s hands.
17:07
What they change is those hands because maybe a woman can work in exchange
17:11
for someone else taking care of her, not work at home for her.
17:15
And all this kind of stuff and money is always the mechanism through which this
17:18
woman can get out of the house to work while another takes care of it.
17:25
And I already, Herrero, have a lot of ideas about this,
17:29
but is there one that always stays very in my mind that what you buy
17:32
is time, that is, when you have the money to hire a person
17:34
to look after you or work at home for you or whatever it is you
17:37
buy is time? When a person cares, you make your life. This
17:42
is seen a lot with the care of older people. I think it'
17:45
s one of the issues that hurts me the most. In this sense,
17:48
people who live with older people throughout the day and often as with diseases that
17:55
affect communication and this kind of thing, it is very hard to be very
17:59
long with a person in this state and then and clearly, without working conditions
18:03
and all this kind of things and what you buy is time, it is
18:08
the time of that person who is not doing his life, you are not
18:11
talking to his family, he is not enjoying what he wants to enjoy,
18:15
but taking care of you and time is not a very valuable thing, which
18:18
is that it is not an exchange that goes far beyond the economic one,
18:22
because many of these women of famulas counted, for example, that they are
18:26
raising children while their children are in the countries of origin being cared for by
18:30
grandparents and that children develop a very complicated relationship, because it is how you
18:33
are. You' re not raising other people who aren' t me,
18:36
but at the same time you' re sending all the money for that kid
18:38
to have a life. So they' re kind of things that shouldn'
18:41
t be bought economically, because they have value far beyond that. And it
18:45
is very significant that being in the year two thousand twenty- four, such
18:51
care of both the home and the people still remains female. That is to
18:55
say, we have made no progress on that term at all. We can
18:59
' t imagine there' s a cleaning man coming home to clean up your
19:04
home. Sure, well, we can' t imagine. It' s
19:07
just, well, ladies of the cleaning, just the authors of that article,
19:11
which is me they used to put on their goose bumps, they did
19:14
a study of what ads are asked for when you' re looking for a
19:18
woman to go take care of your father, your mother. Or whatever,
19:18
and it' s like it' s better if they' re Latinas,
19:23
because they' re more affectionate and they also believe in the good God,
19:29
and besides, they' re very nice and they' re laughing, they
19:32
have a very sweet hecs accent, yes not all of it is racism in
19:37
an exaggerated way And yes, it' s terrifying and it' s also
19:41
seen in families, which I think we can all think of examples, when
19:45
grandfather or grandmother gets malgo, we have to take care of him. It
19:45
is automatically thought that such care will fall on the daughters, that is,
19:48
when there are daughters and sons or sisters, and brothers it is almost always
19:52
the sisters who take care of it, as we automatically go there. Yes,
19:56
and in the case of migrant women, I also remember that he was
19:59
and without papers and is in a complicated irregular situation. Better because she'
20:03
ll be more desperate if she doesn' t have family in Spain. Better
20:04
because it doesn' t get distracted, that' s how you' re
20:07
looking for a slave like that wasn' t looking for a slave who treated
20:11
bad and good. Okay. There are terrifying cases of its published in the
20:15
press that have occurred more, taking advantage precisely of the inequality of both gender
20:19
and race as well as class, thus making real barbarities, from rape to
20:25
this submission and almost kidnapping of people. There are terrible things, terrible stories,
20:30
and I was also thinking that nurses are nurses in the health care person.
20:37
Most of the ninety percent are women. However, when we climb the
20:40
scale between doctors and doctors there is greater parity. Yeah, I probably don
20:45
' t know, but I' m pulling a triple. But in the
20:47
people who run the hospitals, not the hospital management team, because surely we
20:51
will see greater inequality as we go up not totally and for all these things
20:55
commented nuria washed in the article that on the basis of a class feminism of
20:59
this, the deprivatization of the care, the universalization and that the living conditions
21:04
of the caregivers are improved. Yes, we also wanted to give you an
21:08
example of something that you mentioned before, without on the subject of paternal and
21:11
maternal relations subsidiaries, with the book of the horrible daughters of Blanca to the
21:15
house, which is an essay published in books of the CAO that besides,
21:18
we were little with her in a live that we did and is, therefore,
21:19
the best person in Spain or Blanca. We raise a kiss and it
21:22
is a book that is very interesting because it talks about the relationship between mothers
21:26
and daughters and Blanca proposes that, just as we have the concept of motherhood
21:30
and fatherhood, we have not developed a thought about the hijidad, which is
21:33
something that, moreover, we all share. We are not all daughters and
21:36
sons of interesting years. Yeah, so is the thing that we all human
21:38
beings share. The only one may be that we are clear children, we
21:42
are good condition, as everyone is mother, father, but everyone is son.
21:45
Yes, and the book is composed of many testimonies of these so-
21:49
called horrible daughters whose relationship with their mothers is very complicated and is, in
21:53
many cases, traversed by situations of abuse, ill- treatment, or it
21:57
is simply a very tense relationship and this type of relationships points white. They
22:00
always have a lot to do with power. Some of the answers she offers
22:03
to the question of why these tensions occur and these discomforts in mother- daughter
22:07
relationships have a lot to do with the fact that these mothers, for example,
22:11
have had children because it was what touched not really something desired. They
22:15
' ve built their identity on the basis of being mothers, they' ve
22:21
had to stick to an idea of motherhood that' s completely mystified, that
22:26
' s being disassembled now a little bit through women who start talking about mothers
22:30
not being perfect and angelic, and it' s ridiculous to think about it
22:33
that way. And they are people who have experienced similar situations themselves with their
22:37
own progenitors. So, well, the book talks a lot about how these
22:41
relationships are traversed by feelings of guilt, fear or demands of mutual perfection from
22:45
mothers to daughters to mothers. And there is a very powerful idea in the
22:49
essay that that mothers exercise a power and control over their daughters, just as
22:53
they have exercised it in the house. In this we talked about the kingship
22:57
of women in this type of family as more traditional, and there is a
23:03
control of daughters as if they were a property that, curiously and you see
23:07
the testimonies, is not given in the sons. The women say my brother
23:11
had a lot more freedom to develop as outside the house and I was far
23:17
more alibied. No, and this control is meant to be this is also
23:21
a very interesting idea to turn daughters into future dominated that sometimes mothers, perhaps
23:25
as if they are not fully aware of this, but through the control of
23:27
the domination of tips linked to type fear, don' t go alone on
23:32
the street, don' t go with this person. Don' t do
23:33
this, don' t do that. They turn their daughters into people who
23:37
are submissive to the roles of patriarchy. And then, because patriarchy is happy
23:41
and those daughters are not clear because patriarchy reproduces totally, then they too,
23:47
probably with their daughters, save the exact same thing reproduced to you really put
23:53
that same fear. In fact, the White Book is a little bit like
23:57
an attempt to think about how you can break that terrifying chain that you have
24:02
just mentioned and also about reconciliation in some sense, to understand that there are
24:04
things that your mother has done, just because she is educated and trained in
24:08
that control and that domination, and not because it is bad or because it
24:14
is not clear if she is often a victim of an inherited system. You
24:15
have to understand people as in their context, that many times, because the
24:18
margin of action that you have, well, is limit. Listen among lovers,
24:22
of course, among lovers, it is very interesting and we wanted to
24:26
talk it to the thread of a book that is called the lover of marguerity
24:30
Duras, that is classic yes, that is published in Tuskets, that has
24:32
a book per quito is thinking it when I do not know if you have
24:36
read it, that it is called writing temorituras that for writers yes favorite I
24:40
recommend it very much, it is very nice and the lover is a novel
24:42
of eighty- four, that is good, the novel that gives it like
24:45
to Margerit hard much international recognition. They give her the Goncourt Prize, not
24:47
that it is this prize so prestigious that she also took our dear Annier.
24:51
Yes, and it is a novel that happens in the French Indochina, which
24:55
narrates the relationship between an intimate relationship between a 15- year- old young
24:59
girl, who is European, who comes from a family without much money,
25:02
and a man, a young man but older than them, who is twenty
25:07
- seven years old, who is Vietnamese Chinese and yes, who has money
25:10
because he has inherited it from his family. And it is a novel that
25:11
talks a lot about the intersection between eroticism and power, which is a subject
25:14
that has been treated a lot in literature and hard marguerit in his work.
25:17
It goes around this intersection between eroticism, sexual power. Well, if you
25:22
' re interested in these issues, it' s very interesting and in the
25:25
lover, what we see is a link, because we could say illegitimate to
25:30
moral and legal even and maybe we automatically think that the one exercising power is
25:33
that older man. But some readings of the novel have been made which they
25:36
consider is that it is also the girl who guides the lover and who is
25:40
looking for as her own self- discovery. Perhaps how to get out into
25:44
a universe that she finds, evidently, suffocating and poor that this also brings
25:47
us the question of how free are these decisions that are made as a way
25:51
out of poverty And there are many areas in which this can be applied.
25:55
We' re talking about interns, because this could be another example. And
25:56
the older man, for let' s say he doesn' t enjoy power
26:00
in the society in which he lives either, because he' s a Chinese
26:04
man colonized by Europeans, who can' t go where he wants. I
26:07
mean, there are certain spaces you can' t occupy. He' s
26:10
very conditioned by his father, who gives him the money. And then there
26:12
are, like many powers that cross much to exercise power in different spheres.
26:18
And it' s a very interesting book to think about. And in the
26:22
book it seems that the encounters that they have, that even if they have
26:25
their own forms of power, between the relationship that they maintain are a way
26:29
of escaping those, gear hierarchies that occur in society, not beyond the limits
26:30
of the culture of what is considered civilized. Clearly, yes, and it
26:36
is true that reading the work today is not the same as reading it in
26:37
the year eighty- four. We read it from a different view, especially
26:41
these days that much is being talked about about consent, with the film that
26:45
they have made of book of Oanesa Espringora. Well, they' re like
26:48
two books that you can read and think about. It' s very interesting,
26:52
of course, as you were counting it, because, indeed, in
26:53
the avant is also a 15- year- old girl, who is about
26:57
the age Espringorra was when he had the relationship with that man much older than
27:00
her. It must also be said, but it is true that at the
27:04
time where it is located and the place Indochina, there is not the same
27:11
relationship between the ages that we would now have. Now it would be an
27:14
obvious case of pederasty. In that case it is a woman who is narrating
27:18
the novel, who has a power, let' s say or a consciousness
27:25
of an almost adult woman autonomy and then it has been known well that a
27:30
book was published that this was based on real experiences of Margarita Dura of course,
27:34
of course that' s why I said it yes, because I don
27:38
' t think that that to the same case as Lolita, Nor much is
27:41
the consent that, by the way, if they are done, the film
27:47
is very interesting, because there is a clear patriarchal male power of a man
27:52
who is violating and is handling and manipulating a girl or a teenager and,
27:55
moreover, legitimized by the whole environment, of course that is the strong good,
27:57
legitimized by all literary environment, by all. Let' s say the
28:00
dome, the French cultural elite, from television and radio to publishing houses,
28:06
because the books in which he counted, his diaries, of which he told
28:08
this relationship, were applauded and for this reason he was invited to go to
28:14
the media. Yes, yes, it' s a strong story that,
28:15
by the way, our cyberlocutorists made a program talking about this topic and the
28:21
book and the movie that is already very big. Yeah, it' s
28:23
super interesting and we' re done with another story and another exercise. This
28:26
will please you to exercise the power that here there are doubts that is a
28:30
book of this Inveck is of mice and men, a very famous book that
28:36
deals with the topic of friendship between two men who are day laborers who go
28:40
looking for ranch work on ranch and one, that is George, takes care
28:42
of the other one called Lenny, because the latter has an intellectual disability that,
28:48
by the way, we commented on the well defined and written. That
28:49
there is intellectual disability in this book, which is very, very early and
28:56
still costs us how to make fictional cultural products that treat this as intelligent Mary.
29:02
Well, and he does very well, well, we' re obviously
29:04
talking about this inso. He' s doing everything right, yeah, well.
29:07
But also, by the way, there are books about the writing of
29:11
stein Bay of Letters and now I will look for the title that I do
29:12
not remember. What' s his name when he writes to ste dld.
29:15
I already bought that. The other day I' m reading a pound.
29:18
It is already that I am finishing east of Eden and I would now like
29:22
to read the clear letters because he is counting. The writing process is very
29:25
hard and sometimes painful. It' s not easy, which then seems easy
29:29
as a reader. Actually, for the writer it has been a British struggle
29:33
that we love Stein Tai' s Stein fans. Yes, ma' am,
29:37
after hearing I want we had to do a reading club of this po.
29:40
We could have from here in ply to. Yeah, totally in favour.
29:44
Yeah, plus, we made one of mice and men because we'
29:47
re reading IRA grapes with a group of people who are also being super interesting,
29:51
wonderful. Yeah, and it was very curious because with this book it
29:53
' s amazing of the different readings they had done, not because it'
29:57
s like they two travel together. The Georges who takes care of making the
30:00
decisions. However, Lenny is, let' s say, a fairly important
30:04
economic source, because he has a physical strength as incredible. Then we talked
30:10
about whether there is friendship, but we may also find power in this relationship,
30:15
for example, that George is exercising power over Lenny. So there are
30:18
theories of literary criticism that say that maybe this relationship is not just like a
30:22
pure crystalline innocent friendship, but that they are two people who barely have possessions.
30:27
Working conditions are terrible. Your dreams always save to have as your own
30:32
land and not have to go from ranch to ranch working, then we see
30:36
that there is a person who makes all the decisions of the relationship and we
30:40
can think is taking care of you or is dominating you. There' s
30:42
protection, there' s domination, or it' s even equal. There
30:45
are both. In fact, in the reading club the idea arose that perhaps
30:48
in all personal relationships there are certain hierarchies or we exercise power one another in
30:53
such a way that it is not clear. George is exercising power and domination
30:59
in the n the only place where he can do what Lenny is. Controlling
31:03
Lenny is the only thing he can do, the only control he can exercise.
31:06
What we were saying, not exercising power where you can. He has
31:08
nothing of his, he has no possessions or family, he has no friends
31:12
beyond Lenny. In fact, it is a beautiful book to also think about
31:15
loneliness, because usually these men traveled alone and yet they go together. So,
31:22
well, we encourage people to, even if they read it and because
31:26
there were people who said it was a relationship of love, honest and pure,
31:29
there is nothing power. There are other people who said good. It
31:30
looks the same to me. Yes, that there is some domination in some
31:33
way or maybe even that taking care of a person with the intellectual disability that
31:38
he has that sometimes things happen. In fact, in the book I'
31:41
m not going to say what happens, but things happen and maybe some domination
31:45
is inevitable as a way to care, or to control or protect. So,
31:49
we encourage people to tell us what they think? Because, of course,
31:53
this subject you are talking about seems very interesting to me, because all
31:57
human relations could be seen from the perspective of power. But sometimes it'
32:01
s terrifying that we think almost as if we were state entities relating to each
32:08
other from power. I' m not saying it doesn' t exist,
32:10
but sometimes we say no. Love is also a relationship of power. Friendship
32:13
is a relationship of powers that I sometimes command and sometimes you command. I
32:17
also believe that there is also an economic part in which one seems to want
32:22
to extract something from the other, which is not to say that it does
32:25
not exist, but that sometimes I find it dangerous to think always from there,
32:30
because it seems that we eliminate that part of the purity of frankness,
32:35
of generosity, of solidarity, of cooperation, in which there is no power,
32:38
because there is a horizontality that sometimes good, as we say, is
32:42
undulating. It is true that yes, sorry, that it is much more
32:45
useful than simply saying yes, George is taking advantage and exercising a power over
32:49
Lenne and I think it is a book as I do not know so well
32:52
treated and with so many matillas that one cannot be so clear category. And
32:54
I think about it, but not just about Esteinbeck' s novel anymore.
32:59
I think about it in general human relationships, that this is a lot of
33:01
talk about whether the relationship, for example, as a couple is a relationship
33:06
of power, of course, as well as much that we think about it,
33:08
so because we are as in a cynical moment in that sense. I
33:10
don' t believe in what' s also political? It is always all
33:14
political, obviously, but it seems that the vision always has to be from
33:16
politics and sometimes I am a little afraid that we will also remove part of
33:21
humanity, of Laura' s Mystery, which have the relationships that go beyond
33:25
the political and economic categories that we sometimes talk about managing our relationship, managing
33:30
our time. We are managers, we are like entrepreneurs of love, entrepreneurs
33:37
of friendship. Management is a thing that we think a lot, because we
33:40
haven' t found a word yet, that is, we ask for it
33:44
here in the day. Yes, because managing is that it' s true
33:46
that company sounds and I can give you like repelus, but it' s
33:51
true that jo is a very accurate definition for what you do because we thought
33:54
of it, like other words, like facing or facing and what and what
33:59
and how it doesn' t end like fitting in so. But it'
34:00
s true what you' re saying is that it' s a vocabulary that
34:05
' s inherited absolutely from the business issue and the issue of power. And
34:06
I agree with what you have said, that we must also give value to
34:08
the issue of purity and noncense, that it may be there or to the
34:10
issue of horizontality and not rationalize everything that also has a lot to do with
34:15
that. Yes, yes, in fact, as a conclusion, we wanted
34:21
to ask ourselves, well, then, that indeed, this possibility of analyzing
34:24
everything from power, as Javier said, and of exercising power where we can
34:29
do it, where it leaves them, where they let us that it is
34:31
usually to exercise power over those who are below us, either in the social
34:35
hierarchy, in the family, in the economic and perhaps this exercise of power.
34:38
This is a response to being subordinate to other people. This mentality of
34:44
stepping on me, because I step on those I can want to ask ourselves
34:47
if there are no other ways of thinking things and why choose to exercise power
34:52
instead of trying to undo it as much as possible. Of course, precisely
34:57
other ways may be to begin to undo that notion of how long we are
35:00
exercising power, to think differently, to think from other places that that does
35:05
not have to prevent, that we feel that sometimes we exercise power in a
35:08
bad way over others, but that sometimes not all are power relations. I
35:10
think they can be relationships of another kind of equality, collaboration, collaboration,
35:15
recovery. Yeah, it' s interesting that we change the perspective a little
35:20
bit to the way we think, because they give it too.