Latest / The Epstein Chronicles / Mega Edition: The Warden's Statement Detailing The Death Of Jeffrey Epstein (Part 21-24) (6/20/26)

Transcript

Mega Edition: The Warden's Statement Detailing The Death Of Jeffrey Epstein (Part 21-24) (6/20/26) · The Epstein Chronicles

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Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
0:02
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
0:05
where we left off with the warden from MCC and
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his interview with the OIG inspectors. Question, now, who was
0:15
responsible to have the new camera system installed? Answer? What
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do you mean as far as responsible? Question like who
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had overall oversight on that? Answer the facilities manager question
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mister redacted? Answer yeah, mister redacted. Question All right, answer,
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he gets the people in there, but we're allocating things.
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But again, I want to say that was you know
0:37
with manpower. Question. Okay, now you've pretty much answered this,
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but can you say it's the same answer? But I
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just want to read to you the question, what are
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your thoughts on the fact that the new camera system
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was there since October twenty eighteen, but wasn't installed until
0:54
after the Epstein incident that occurred on August tenth. Answer
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it's the manpower question map power. Answer, Yeah, you know,
1:01
getting people qualified people in there to do it. I
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mean one person couldn't do it. It was and we were
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putting in new cameras in new areas, so he needed
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more people. One person couldn't do it. Question Okay, do
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you mind just initially and don't have to go through
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this just the top is fine? Anything more on the
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camera issue? Hayes jumps in, Oh, Christ, do you got
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more issues? Question? No, I think we have one more issue.
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And then just a couple of questions based upon the
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BOP's findings. It does say that there's leaks information. Where
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are those emails? Answer? It was did we mix up
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on that question? Here it is? So here's the two
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emails that were both sent from redacted to you and
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one to redacted? Answer? Yeah, he was acting director at
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the time. Question Director of the BOP. Answer yeah, question okay.
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So the first one was on August tenth, twenty nineteen,
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at six fourteen pm TOU and the subject is urgent
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request potential leak in hospital regarding Epstein's death. It looks
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like whereas Yeah, it says, please ensure this information is
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given to the OIGFBI. Thanks. And then this next one,
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like you said, is from redacted to the director. Subject
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prison guard skip mandatory checks before Epstein's death. This the
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body says, couldn't see the entire article on my phone,
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but I wouldn't be surprised. There are staff that are
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paid contracts for local media outlets. This has also been
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discussed at the department level all the way up to
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the White House, and who knows who may have overheard
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those discussions. Do you know anything about leaks in the
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media from the MCC answer? So what happened was when
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Redacted came to see me, the issue that we had
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was I told them about it that there was an
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article in the post that took a picture of our
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staff and our staff rode with Epstein on it. So
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I told Redacted about it, and I guess they said
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that one of the paramedics had leaked the information. Question like,
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took a picture of them answer, took a picture of
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them coming in the room when they got to the
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emergency room, took a picture of Epstein being rolled in
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and our what would you call it? Our staff. So
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I talked to her adacted about that, and then I
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had also told him that, you know, there might be
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some staff, you know, because I didn't know where it
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was coming from, because the information was just coming out,
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you know, so quickly, and it was like, where is this,
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you know, coming from? So I called and made him
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a where and you know, told him about when he
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came on Sunday, but the main one was because of
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the picture in the post. Question, Now, who is it
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that you suspect would have been leaking information to him? Answer?
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I couldn't. I couldn't even tell. But I just was,
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you know, with this whole thing, the stuff would leak
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and had been leaked out to the media, and you
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were like, where's this coming from? Question do you have
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any suspicions though? Answer? I can't speculate. I mean, hey,
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that's my boy. I mean I don't know anything. Question
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you're talking like an attorney. Answer No, I mean Hayes
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pipes in. But like that, I don't know nothing. But
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what I do know, I don't know. Answer I mean
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I can't speculate. I mean half of it was towards me.
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Question did you leak the information you mean? Answer No,
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I said it was towards me. Question Oh, you mean
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the information like the negative press and the negative press
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was towards you. Answer yeah, it reverted back to me.
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So I mean that's you, you know, and it was
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just it was fast and furious. Question so like negative
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things to people, you believe someone in the BOP was
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leaking negative information about you? Answer? I don't. I mean,
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you know. Question, can you give me like an example
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of what was leaked about you? Answer? Well, I mean,
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you know, stuff that happened, you know, and I'm not
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saying specific specifically right towards me, but it was just
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automatically the blame was, you know, put on me. And
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then you know, the other part of it was, I
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don't know if I came from the department. I don't
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know if I came from the institution. Question okay, answer,
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because all that information was going to you know, up
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to different levels. Question but did anybody tell you that
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they believe that a certain person was leaking information? Answer? No,
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I didn't hear that. If it was a certain person,
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I didn't, you know. Question okay, And did you leak
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any information to the media? Answer absolutely not. Question okay,
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do you mind just initially and dating that, do you
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believe though somebody in the BOP was leaking? Answer? And
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I'm not questioned, And I don't mean that personally. I
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just mean, you know, you could always get the second
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one under there. Question it could have been up to
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the department because the information was going up to them.
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Question But I just mean, like, based upon the information
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that was being leaked. Do you believe that someone in
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the BOP, not necessarily the MCC, I just mean BOP
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was leaking information? Answer I will put it this way.
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The Department of Justice might because all the information. Yeah, OIG, FBI, anybody?
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It could have been anybody? Question gotcha? All right? The
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last actual topic about a couple of the findings Epstein's will.
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Do you know anything about Epstein changing his will just
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prior to his death? Answer? No? Question? Have you heard
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about that? Answer after the fact? Question right? And when
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you say after the fact, how did you learn that
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after the fact? Answer I don't know, reading it or
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hearing it on the news. Question did you ever hear
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about it in an official capacity? Answer? No? Question all right?
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Do you know if it's true? Answer don't know. Question Okay,
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Hayes jumps in, if this all to his brother? Right?
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Is that true? Question? I can't comment on that kind
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of stuff. But what action should have been taken? Or
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you don't know if it was? If it was learned
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that Epstein's will have been changed just prior to his death,
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do you believe any specific actions should have been taken? Answer?
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I don't know anything. I mean, I can't comment on
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that question. Okay, so that's the last of the topics.
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Now we have indiscernible referred to it. I don't think
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we have to refer to anything other than where is that? Yeah,
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do you have that? The after action report? And I
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don't know what we actually need to cite to have
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initial them. This is the after action report? Is that
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the BOP created in response? So just a few quick
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questions on it. It says on August first, twenty nineteen,
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at thirty am, Psychology documented that they were notified by
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correctional systems of a form received from the United States
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Marshall Service the previous day, stating inmate Epstein at a
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reported suicidal tendencies. Do you know anything about that? And
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what transpired? Answer? Wait, read that again? Questions on August
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So just a refresher memory of a timeline. On July thirtieth,
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he comes off psychological observation and he goes to the
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shoe two days later. So there's July thirty first and
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August first, eight thirty am. Psychology documented that they were
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notified by correctional systems of a form received from the
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United States Marshall Service that previous day. So I guess
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on July thirtieth, the thirty first, I mean stating inmate
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Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies. This was the BOP's finding.
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Do you know anything about that? Answer, I don't know
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anything about that. And that's before when he first came
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into the system. Answer no, that was after he came
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off psychological observation, so after the actual first attempt or
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potential harm from TARTAGLIONI answer no, I didn't question. You
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don't know anything about that? Answer no, question okay? And
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do you know anything about the suicidal tendencies that he
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was showing? Answer no, question no, all right. And then
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on the same date, August first, twenty nineteen, again this
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is after the Tartagleoni incident and after coming off psychological observation,
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one PM Psychology conducts the suicide risk assessment, noting watch
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is not indicated with a recommendation for follow up in
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one week. The delay is conducting this assessment is not
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justified in the report. Did you learn anything about that?
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Answer no, I didn't question yeah. Yeah, And again this
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is just some of the negative findings. We just want
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you to know and we want to know your take
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on it. I don't expect you to know any or
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all of this or anything. It's just asking because there
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are some negative findings. Okay, the next one, it says significant.
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It says significant discrepancies exist within the century regarding admission
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released ARS. Answer right, question century does not reflect in
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made Epstein being escorted from the institution by the US
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Martial Service on July thirty first, twenty nineteen, although assigned
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prisoner roman form is on file documenting having received them
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from the US Martial Service. Additional review revealed inmate Epstein
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the part of the institution for a total of four
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court appearances, and only one of these occasions was an
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ARS change made within century. It appears that there's a
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culture of foregoing this vital function due to the likelihood
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of the inmate returning from court. This lapse in procedure
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is a severe inmate accountability deficiency. Answer. While that statement
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is incorrect, I know the regional office looked into it
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and said that pre trial institution can out count an
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inmate to go into court, so he doesn't have to
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be keyed out on ARS. So the way that they
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were doing it, they looked at it after the fact
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and said there was nothing wrong with it. Question so
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they did review this matter and said that there was
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nothing wrong with it. Answer yeah, because they kept thinking
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when they were looking out same thing, Like you said,
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he was going to court, but they can count them
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in that area. Question all right, and what are they
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talking about, like pre moving them or something like that
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when he goes to court? Answer no, going to court?
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Question yeah, yeah, answer, And if anyone is going to court,
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because you have so much court movement that you can
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out count them, and then when the marshals say, hey,
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he's not going out, then you release them. And this
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means on the E one he would be listed on
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the outcount answer correct. Question and that's what they were
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actually doing. Answer, that's what they were doing. Question. Okay, answer,
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they had them on E one. Question, So this is
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no longer an issue. Answer, no longer an issue. All right, folks.
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We're gonna wrap up right here and in the next
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episode dealing with the time, we're going to pick up
12:01
where we left off. All the information that goes with
12:04
this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone,
12:08
and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
12:12
this episode, we're going to pick up where we left
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off with the Warden and his interview with the OIG inspectors.
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Question all right, the next one, it says no notations
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concerning a requirement for a cell mate were entered into
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the shoe program and subsequently available for shoe officers to reference.
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Who would have been responsible for noting that in the
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shoe program? First of all, what is the shoe program? Answer?
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The shoe program is with the two ninety twos, So
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I don't know from what I understand, and was told
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after the fact that they couldn't find the information on
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Epstein in the shoe program. So I don't know how
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you can to that conclusion. Hayes. By the way, let
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the record indicate that he is not sweating under his
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armpits a good sign. Question we didn't be a came
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to these conclusions. Answer right, So I don't know where
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that conclusion came from, because from what I gather, they
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couldn't get, they couldn't find because usually he gets cut off. Well,
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they found the two ninety twos, but they were just
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very limited. Answer right. The two ninety twos usually have
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to have everything indicated on it. Question and on that note,
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we were told the two ninety two his file was
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extremely small and it should have been larger. Had you
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heard anything about people removing documents from files? Answer from
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what I understand and was told that there was no file.
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They couldn't They had every other inmates file, but not his.
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Question they couldn't even find it. You didn't think they
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could find his file at all? Answer? No, that's what
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they was told to me. Question And who told you that? Answer?
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I think I heard that after the fact. I don't
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know if the regional director told me after they came
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in and did the check and they couldn't find it,
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So I don't know. Question. But back to the original question,
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whether it was there or not. If it the cellmate
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requirement was not entered in the shoe program, who should
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have made sure that it was? Answer on the two
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ninety two and I don't know who was doing it.
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It should have been the lieutenant to ensuring that it's
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all in there. Question, So the shoe lieutenant answer when
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they yeah, when they deny it, or to the OIC.
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So if the captain conveyed the information to them, that
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should have been put on the two ninety two question.
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So either the Shoe lieutenant or the OIC answer yeah. Question. Now,
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when you say the OIC, does one OIC of one
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shift take more responsibility than another? Answer? No, they are
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all on the same shift. Question so like, for instance,
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redacted was the OIC on the day watch, but I
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think redacted was the OIC of the night watch. So
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would one of them have more responsibilit to do this
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then the other? Answer No, But that should have been
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done on the initial when the directive was put out.
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Question so from doctor or misredacted saying that he's coming
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off of psychological observation, he needs to be housed with
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the cellmate on July thirtieth, Answer right, that would have
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been put out. And then when he gets cut off
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by the investigator. So who at that time should have
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noted that in his file? Answer Well, you would probably
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have to find out from the captain who directed him
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to doing that. Question. While the captain, according to his
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you know, his memo that he sent to you, it
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says that he specifically had these conversations on multiple occasions
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with Lieutenant redacted. Answer right, So it would have been
15:48
the shoe lieutenant whichever one he had. If Redacted was
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the one, then redacted would have been the one. Question Okay.
15:56
August ninth, twenty nineteen eight am and made the cellmate
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departs for court answer right question. Again, this claims court.
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But if they're seeing WAB, actually, you know what I heard,
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WAB was specific to MCC is that correct answer? Other
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institutions will tell you to pack up your inmates with
16:17
all the belongings. That's you know what it is question
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because even on their findings, they are showing that he
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departed for court answer yeah question, although all the documentation
16:29
we showed says WAB answer WAB question and transferred. So
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even on here they are getting this wrong answer. And
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that's what the whole confusion is is the assumption that
16:42
he was going to court. Question because then it says
16:46
he gets cut off by the warden. When you look
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at the document, he gets cut off now by the investigator. Yeah,
16:54
And then it says inmate Rayis does not return to
16:57
the institution. So in this was when a lot of things.
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When we were first starting this investigation, we heard was
17:04
court didn't return from court answer right question. And then
17:09
when we actually look through the record, we were like, Court,
17:13
it's he gets cut off by the warden. I think
17:17
people thought, without looking at the documentation, that he went
17:19
to court and got released from court. Question So then
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I'm just going to read the question if the document's
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list rayis is being wab and if they had the
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transfer list, why did they say that he went to
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court and did not return. Answer? I can't answer that question. Okay,
17:37
seven pm Epstein was provided a social call by the
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institutional duty officer. Does that mean redacted? Answer? Yeah, he
17:45
was the duty officer at the time, I believe. Question
17:48
And what does the institutional duty officer mean? Answer? So,
17:52
what the duty officer is is after hours, they walk
17:55
around and you know, report emergencies. Question is that like
17:59
the highest ranking official there? Answer that comes on at night.
18:04
You know they're there with lieutenants. But they just make
18:07
sure that if we had any issues, you know, addressing
18:09
and made issues stuff like that. Question So they're kind
18:12
of they basically the OIC for the institution. Answer kind of,
18:17
I wouldn't say the OIC, but you know senior staff around. Question. Okay,
18:22
this call was done on an unmonitored line. It's extremely
18:26
concerning why this call would have been placed and why
18:29
it would have been done on an unmonitored line. Without
18:32
further interviews, it's not possible to determine the reason for
18:36
this call. Just why does it say extremely concerning? Answer?
18:41
I don't know. Both are a report he gets cut off,
18:44
But I mean, do you also find it extremely concerning?
18:47
Would you classify it as extremely concerning? Answer? I mean
18:51
it would be. I mean that the choice of words
18:55
that they use, so I wouldn't you know, necessarily say,
18:58
use the word extremely concerned, But I would think he
19:03
gets cut off by the investigator. It's certainly wrong. Answer,
19:07
it would be. It's an issue, but extremely concerning question, Okay.
19:13
On August ninth, twenty nineteen, during the shift change in
19:16
the Shoe, the shoe number three six am to two
19:19
PM officer briefed his two pm to ten relief and
19:24
the other two eight am to four pm officers with
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the likelihood in may Reis would not be returning and
19:30
in made Epstein would require a cell mate upon return
19:33
from an attorney visit. In made Epstein was not placed
19:37
with the cell mate upon his return to the shoe.
19:40
My question to you is, just how did they know
19:43
this information? How would they have obtained that information? Do
19:46
you know? Answer? I don't know. Like I said, I
19:49
don't know who they spoke to during this after action
19:53
question Were they doing interviews though? Answer? I wasn't there.
19:57
Question Okay, were they authorized though? If A and FBI
20:01
are doing an investigation, is the after action team authorized
20:04
to come in and interview people? Answer? So, I've done
20:08
after actions and there's a point where you come to
20:11
it where you if it's an OIG or FBI investigation,
20:15
that I can't. I mean, I can't question certain people
20:18
because it might impede the investigation, Like if you're going
20:21
to look at video and all that stuff or look
20:23
at it, you can't because most of the time it's
20:26
been taken. So I don't know. Question So possibly from
20:30
that memo though that was created, if they're not really
20:34
supposed to be doing I mean, I'm assuming that they're
20:37
not really supposed to be doing interviews. Answer. I mean,
20:41
I don't know who authorized them to come in and
20:43
do the investigation. I don't know it was, you know
20:46
who set the parameters on it. I can't speak on
20:49
that question. And is it normal for them to do
20:52
something like this when there is an actual FBI and
20:55
OIG investigation. Answer? We do after actions, So I don't know. Question,
21:00
But I mean, do they do after actions typically when
21:03
there is an ongoing criminal investigation. Answer not typically question
21:08
no answer. So I don't know, and again I don't
21:11
want to speculate. I don't know who authorized it. I
21:14
don't know if they got permission from the department to
21:17
come down and do it. Question sure. August tenth, twenty nineteen,
21:21
So this is the day of six thirty three am.
21:24
A body alarm is activated in the Special Housing Unit
21:27
Shoes staff report inmate Epstein was unresponsive in cell two
21:31
six dash two two zero. LAED Centry does not reflect
21:36
this accurately. Staff entered the cell and attempted to wake Epstein.
21:40
Control Center announced a medical emergency cardio pulmonary resuscitation or
21:45
CPR was initiated. So the question here is, I guess
21:49
I'll start with, Well, the information that we have is
21:52
Michael Thomas and Owel were there. Michael Thomas immediately went
21:56
into the cell upon finding Epstein. Was it a probe
22:00
read it for him to immediately go into the cell
22:02
or should he have waited for staff to arrive on site? Answer?
22:07
You're trained to wait for enough staff to get there
22:13
and a lieutenant before you open the door. Hayes, Is
22:17
that right? Answer? Uh? Huh? Question in other words, suppose
22:21
the fucking guy is in a seizure. Answer, well, the
22:24
flip side of it is he could be trying. He
22:26
could be fanning it. Question we're in a prison. Answer yeah,
22:31
he could be fanning the suicide and then come on
22:33
and attack you and guess what, You're the only person there. Now,
22:36
he has the keys for every range on that door,
22:41
and you can't lose you can't lose the unit. So
22:45
that wasn't he gets cut off by the investigator. So
22:48
he did not question, So he didn't appropriately disindiscernible. Question. Yeah,
22:57
he didn't appropriately question. And did he have known that
23:01
from his training experience? Answer? Yeah. Question seven thirty six
23:05
am inmate Epstein pronounced dead by the emergency room physician,
23:10
and we're already addressed this. My question was was Epstein
23:13
alive or did he show signs? But we dug into
23:16
that plenty. On August tenth, twenty nineteen, the two assigned
23:21
morning watch Shoe officers failed to make their designated rounds
23:24
or account. The Shoe inmates four two counts at six
23:28
thirty three am, upon finding in made Epstein on a
23:30
responsive in his cell with a torn bed sheet around
23:33
his neck. Staff utilized the body alarm to initiate a
23:36
call for assistance. The medical response to the incident was timely, efficient,
23:42
and exhaustive. Staff utilized in AED as well as a
23:46
continuous CPR unit. Care was assumed by EMS personnel. Are
23:51
you aware of how what information they obtained to say
23:54
that the shoe officers failed to make their designated rounds accounts? Answer?
23:58
I don't know, no, And I just say this because
24:02
I know in reviewing emails a lot of this information
24:05
was provided from you too, redacted, and redacted was providing
24:09
it to whomever that they were. So I'm assuming and
24:12
drafting these questions out a lot of this information came
24:15
from you. Answer, but I wasn't here when this was
24:19
Question Yeah. I think a lot of this stuff though,
24:22
was provided, you know, during the email review those first
24:25
couple of days. So that's why I'm asking these questions,
24:28
is like, do you know where this information came from? Answer? No,
24:32
I don't question no. Answer mm hmm. All right, folks,
24:37
We're gonna wrap up right here and in the next
24:40
episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where
24:42
we left off. All the information that goes with this
24:45
episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone,
24:49
and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
24:53
this episode, we're going to pick up where we left
24:55
off with the warden from MCC and his interview with
24:59
the old investigators. Question Okay, institution duty officers do not
25:05
routinely visit the shoe each day, as required by the
25:08
institution supplement. Additionally, the ideal reports consistently document the condition
25:14
of shoe as satisfactory when observations have shown the shoe
25:19
to be less than satisfactory. Do you have any comment
25:22
on that? Do you agree with that assessment? Answer? Oh,
25:26
I don't know that day that they went in there
25:28
again when these observations were done. I wasn't the warden
25:31
in the institution. Question okay, But prior to when you
25:35
were the warden, do you know about the institution duty
25:38
officers not routinely visiting the shoe each day is required? Answer? No,
25:43
I didn't know about that. Question You didn't know about that? Answer?
25:46
I didn't. I ensured sanitation, you know, I made sure
25:50
they made sure that the areas were cleaned. Question okay,
25:53
and what was their ultimate responsibility when they would visit
25:57
the shoe? Answer? I guess it's the same thing to
26:01
make rounds in the unit, check on the inmates, make
26:03
sure that there are no issues. Question and is that,
26:07
like you said, the ideal was the guy that's on
26:10
at night. Answer that's the duty officer the institution duty officer.
26:15
Question always at night though, answer they use They typically
26:20
work from like one to nine, twelve to nine, they
26:23
cover the evening shift. Question because I thought it was
26:26
explained to me it was kind of like the person
26:29
in charge when you're not here. Answer well, yeah, but
26:33
then the other flip side of it go to the
26:35
other shift. You know, the operation lieutenant is the CEO
26:39
in the absence of the warden, So the duty officer
26:43
is just the bridge to the executive staff. Question but
26:48
they were actually supposed to be conducting those shoe rounds
26:50
every day? Answer and then and again, I don't know
26:54
if they were or were not. I don't know what
26:57
they were. You know what he was looking at? Question now,
27:01
why would was a reoccurring Was he a reoccurring? Answer? No,
27:07
the duty officer, like sometimes you can get it twice
27:09
a year. Question Oh, okay, but is it like a
27:13
quarterly submitted post type of thing. Answer, well, I remember
27:17
he is also he is also the duty officer, but
27:20
he is also his unit manager. Question but was he
27:25
the consistent duty officer? Answer no, No, they rotate question
27:29
every day answer no, every week question every week answer yeah,
27:34
you have other ones every week. So he gets cut
27:37
off by the other investigator. So it goes between the
27:39
unit managers. Answer other unit managers, other department heads. So
27:44
what kind of goes you know? Question? And what is
27:48
the grade level requirement? Question the department heads? It's usually
27:51
twelve or higher? Question twelve or higher answer and some
27:57
like maybe some GS eleven's our trust funds? Who were advisors? Hayes?
28:02
What gray level are you? Answer ss Hayes, which means
28:09
answer it's like a general no staff question. No, it's
28:13
what's equivalent to So if you're looking at the military equivalent,
28:17
it would be the equivalent of a general the warden. No, no,
28:23
I can't afford that, I got kids. Question. So the
28:26
highest level you can go to is the GS level
28:30
is fifteen, and that's basically a full indiscernible klonel in
28:33
the military sees is the general level. He's being modest.
28:41
Question I did not know. I thought I assumed you
28:44
were fifteen since your aws R fourteens though, Answer no,
28:50
but certain institutions you are sees. Question and mcc was
28:55
one of those institutions. Answer MCC is one. Your pre
28:59
trials are fifteen, Your penitentiaries, your big lows like Fort Dix,
29:03
certain mediums. Question and have you maintained are you still
29:07
in sees now? Answer yes? Question okay, since this time,
29:12
have you ever been demoted or anything like that? Answer no, question, no, no,
29:19
just got moved Hayes indiscernible. You know I always give
29:25
law enforcement guys a big you know, a discount, but
29:27
I didn't. He's an f in indiscernible. Couldn't afford to
29:33
pay the warden. Remember I'm a federal employee. Question federal boys,
29:38
it doesn't matter if you're a general or not. The warden.
29:42
We don't make money. Question you're not making a lot
29:45
of money. Answer? Remember I think the president makes what
29:49
two hundred and fifty thousand? Is it four hundred thousand? Now,
29:53
so they're just talking about the president, blah blah blah.
29:55
We're gonna skip that. We're gonna get back to the
29:58
questions uestion, Okay, so is The report also says that
30:02
psychology intake screening of Epstein contained errors in identifying details,
30:07
including that Epstein was referred to as a black inmate
30:11
and by different inmate names Hayes, Oh, no, you're kidding me.
30:14
They said he was black. Hell, that was a mistake.
30:18
Question do you know anything about that? Answer? I don't
30:21
know anything about that question. Would that be a psychology issue? Answer?
30:27
That is a psychology whoever was doing the review question?
30:30
All right, Shoe has multiple cells equipped with video recording capability.
30:34
Inmate Epstein was not housed in one of these cells,
30:38
and there appears to be no set guidance on when
30:41
to utilize these cells. So you already said that you
30:44
didn't believe like he should have been. Is that correct? Answer?
30:49
Let me correct that none of the cells, none of
30:51
the cells that we had in Shoe were had cameras
30:54
in the cells that were being working and being used.
30:58
The only ones up in Shoe had cameras in the
31:00
cell is ten south? Question? Okay, so nowhere else in
31:05
the institution he gets cut off by the warden. Nowhere
31:08
else in there had cameras in the cell ten South.
31:13
We have it in the cells where you can see. Question,
31:17
how about like nine South lower or something like that.
31:20
Would they isn't that like the mini ten South? Answer? Yeah,
31:26
that's the g tier. Did they have cameras question? Answer
31:32
that they did not have recording cameras. Question just live
31:36
cameras answer in south? Yeah, just nope. But then we
31:41
had no cameras on there that had live cameras in
31:44
the south. Okay, so only ten South? Answer only ten South.
31:49
The other investigator pipes in this statement might actually associate
31:53
ten South as part of the shoe. The word answers right,
31:58
because a lot of people that come in, when they
32:00
first come in, ten South is part of their actually
32:03
part of nine South we call it. It's part of
32:05
the annex. So when most people come in and they
32:08
have never been there, they don't differentiate. Question. So, being
32:12
that these are BOP individuals that did this report, what
32:16
is your response to them saying that there appears to
32:19
be set guidance on when to utilize these cells if
32:23
they're referring to ten South, was their guidance on that? Answer? Yeah,
32:27
ten South, like I said, was specifically for sam inmates. Question,
32:31
So do you also believe that is an incorrect statement? Then? Answer?
32:37
If that's what they are referring to I do believe
32:40
it is question, and you believe there was no other
32:42
working camera outside of ten South for a single cell?
32:46
Answer ten South is the only one where we had
32:49
our cameras. Question because we also had been informed that
32:54
there were cells outside of ten South that had cameras
32:56
in them, specifically, I think G Tier, that's inaccurate answer,
33:01
G Tier, there's no recording of inmates in those cells.
33:04
Question just live answer and I don't believe live. I
33:11
know the only ones we had was ten South question okay. Answer.
33:16
We also heard that ten South wasn't supposed to be
33:18
utilized anymore. It was actually supposed to be phased out.
33:22
That was the other investigator asking that question. Now the
33:26
word answers, It was supposed to what question phased out? Answer?
33:31
What do you mean phased out? Answer? It was actually
33:34
brought up, brought out during the time after nine to eleven.
33:37
To house terrorist inmates. Have you ever heard anything about
33:41
the fact that no one was supposed to be housed
33:43
up there anymore? Answer? No, it's not. It's not the
33:46
house terrorists inmates. It's to house inmates that have a
33:50
SAM on them. So mostly the most of the inmates
33:53
that have sam's on them are terrorist inmates or you know,
33:56
maybe an inmate housed for espionage, you know, and then
33:59
he gets cut off by the investigator. Was it supposed
34:02
to have been phased out due to pria concerns? Answer?
34:07
I don't know anything about that question. Okay. The next
34:10
one is the report also shows that a review was
34:13
done regarding overtime conducted by the CEOs at the MCC
34:17
and the shortage of staff. It doesn't say much about that.
34:21
Do you know what the overall team's finding was? Do
34:24
you agree that there was a shortage of staff? Answer? Yeah,
34:27
there was. I mean, I'll give you an example. We
34:30
were short staffed. I was relieving officers on their posts
34:33
and on some weekends I would come in and work
34:36
a post. Question as the warden. Answer as the warden.
34:40
I mean we had we were short. Question Now, is
34:44
there was there a way to rectify that issue? Answer?
34:47
We could? I mean hiring? We had, I mean forty
34:50
or fifty staff on OWCP question and can you explain
34:56
what that is? Answer? Workers compensation? And what was the
35:01
percentage there? You said? Answer about forty or fifty staff
35:05
on it? Question? Forty or fifty staff? Answer? Yeah. Question
35:10
did they seem to abuse that? Answer? We all knew
35:14
it was an abuse. I mean we even had a
35:16
conversation with the IG about it. You know, you're going
35:19
to the same doctor, but I understand the same redacted.
35:24
But again I understand every agency is short. Question Uh huh. Answer,
35:29
I mean, so we just had that constant problem, you know,
35:33
the hiring. We had a lot of department heads that
35:35
we would use to cover some of my associated wardens
35:38
you know, would cover So it was just you know,
35:41
had to make do with what we had. Question now,
35:43
was there like a plan in place to try to
35:45
get you guys up to proper staffing levels? Answer? I mean,
35:48
we were working on hiring, you know, getting people in,
35:51
but it's a process, you know, to get somebody hired,
35:54
it takes between six and eight months. Question and were
35:58
there a number of people in the pipeline? Answer? Not really.
36:01
I mean we went out, we did recruiting because we
36:03
were competing with other agencies, you know, other agencies are hiring,
36:08
you know, and we had incentives you know to get
36:10
people on So it was just a matter of you know,
36:12
getting people on board. Question and do you think it
36:16
could have been handled better? By some in some way
36:18
by the BOP in order to rectify the issue. Answer,
36:22
there are certain things we can't control staff and you know,
36:25
the budget, we don't control that. I mean, we can
36:28
turn around and say I want this, but once the
36:31
law has passed and it said this is what you're getting,
36:34
you don't. We need to work with what we've got.
36:37
Question No, And I understand that that as like as
36:41
far as the BOP goes, But I mean the MCC,
36:44
especially you know, covering sdny Epstein in a lie and
36:48
having such high profile inmates there. Do you think that
36:51
there could have been anything done better though by the
36:54
BOP to make sure that your institution, specifically MCC, was
36:58
better staffed. Answer? You could, so let's go TD why.
37:03
We couldn't really couldn't TD why at that point. But
37:06
then there are some other institutions around the agency that were,
37:09
you know, the staffing was an issue, so they can't
37:11
send somebody out to help, and then it just brought
37:14
down the finding I mean and getting people to clear
37:18
your background. Not everybody can clear the background to work.
37:21
I mean, yeah, we can go out on the street
37:22
and say hey, we got a job for you, but
37:25
can you pass the guidelines and a lot of times
37:28
do we know? All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up
37:31
right here and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
37:33
we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the
37:36
information that goes with this episode can be found in
37:39
the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another
37:42
episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going
37:45
to pick up where we left off with the interview
37:48
that was given by the warden of MCC to the
37:51
OIG investigators question, all right, so we're literally less than
37:55
half a page left, but this next one is just
37:58
going to be I'm going to have if you just
38:00
kind of read it along with me because it's so long.
38:03
He was also an inmate who had risk factors for
38:06
assault by other inmates and did require careful selection for
38:10
appropriate cell mates. Although these issues were noted, well documented
38:14
and communicated, a failure still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein
38:19
to be placed in the cell alone. Although feasible for
38:22
an inmate to effectuate suicide while housed with the cell mate,
38:26
the odds of this occurring are significantly lowered when housed
38:29
with another inmate. The report continues its apparent various staff
38:34
at the institution made a point of ensuring Inmate Epstein
38:37
had an assigned cell mate. The captain personally instructed the
38:41
lieutenants individually. A mass email was distributed by Psychology, and
38:46
it's apparent that some Shoe officers were aware. Although many
38:50
people acknowledge this an important fact, Ultimately the final staff
38:54
responsible for not or did not ensure the requirement was met,
38:59
including vital directives such as cellmate requirement, and a mass
39:03
email does not ensure indiscernible directives such as cellmate requirement,
39:08
and a mass email does not ensure those who truly
39:11
need that information due in fact receive it timely. In
39:15
this case, inmate Epstein was actually placed with a cell
39:18
mate when removed from psychological observation. After that moment, it's
39:23
clear there was no additional written directive or a fel
39:26
safe system established to ensure that Inmate Epstein would have
39:30
had a cell mate going forward. So I guess, first
39:34
and foremost, do you believe probably the primary reason why
39:37
Epstein was able to take his own life was because
39:39
he didn't have a cell mate. On top of the
39:42
fact that they weren't conducting rounds in the Shoe and counts. Answer.
39:47
I can't speak on that mindset. Only I can speak
39:50
on is he killed himself? Question? But what I'm asking
39:54
is would it have certainly helped prevent his death by
39:57
one having an inmate and two having round andcounts conducted? Answer? Oh,
40:03
if people did their job? Question right? Answer? You know,
40:08
and he gets cut off by the investigator like, obviously,
40:11
if he killed himself, he did it. But the way
40:14
that the government can better ensure that that doesn't happen
40:17
is by ensuring that when it's mandated that someone has
40:20
a cell mate, that they have a cell mate, and
40:23
when they do their job, like you just said, they
40:26
conduct rounds and counts. Is that what you believe would
40:29
have helped keep them alive today? If you know from
40:31
the government perspective? Answer? I mean again, I'm going to
40:36
have to just say I can't say what would have
40:38
kept them alive, but I will say, you know, if
40:40
people made their rounds, did their jobs, followed instructions that
40:43
they were given, then it might have could have minimized,
40:47
you know, the risk. But I can't talk to you
40:51
know if he would have done it or not done it,
40:54
if that would have stopped them? Question now, as far
40:57
as this last sentence that they wrote after that moment,
41:00
it's clear that there was no additional written directive or
41:03
a fel safe system established to ensure inmate Epstein would
41:07
have a cell mate going forward. What do you think
41:10
could have been done and who should have done it? Answer? So,
41:15
directives and the information was conveyed to people verbally documented
41:18
on forms on what you're supposed to do. There were
41:21
signs up. Question Now, what signs do you know that
41:25
were up? Answer? No, I mean the one you read
41:28
to me about the sign about doing the thirty minute checks.
41:33
Question Oh, I think this is specifically talking about the
41:36
cellmate requirement. Answer No, I mean indiscernible cellmate requirement. It
41:41
was put out by the captain. Directives were given, staff
41:44
was spoken to. You know, it's kind of boiled down
41:47
to people not doing their job. I mean, if I
41:49
tell you you have to do something, it's given to
41:53
you in writing. What more do you want? Question? Well,
41:56
that's kind of my question because the BOP is the
41:59
one who at that finding. So I'm curious myself what
42:03
you think that could have been done? Answer? I mean
42:07
that's somebody's opinion, you know, that's a Monday morning quarterback
42:11
that came in and make an opinion. I don't know
42:14
what their ulterior motive is for making it. Question can
42:18
you think of anything that wasn't done? Can you think
42:20
of anything like, oh, if this could have helped, or
42:23
maybe he should have done that as far as the
42:25
cellmate requirement. Answer? I can't think of anything they should
42:29
have done. Question No, okay. The other investigator asked a question.
42:35
I know it's bound to based on once everything comes up.
42:38
These are questions that they're going to have. So I
42:40
got to ask. I know you mentioned that you couldn't
42:43
have secondary selection, like another replacement for Rays, because inmates
42:47
keep moving. But is it possible that a list should
42:50
have been created that you know should have told the
42:53
shoe officers, Hey, listen, if Reyes ever gets removed, here
42:57
is a list of maybe possible five inmates that you
43:00
could choose from. Answer. But I mean, under you know
43:04
different inmates, we can do that. But he was a
43:06
high profile inmate. I would have had to get the
43:09
name and run it up to the department to see
43:11
if it was okay, it wasn't just him. I was
43:15
going to arbitrarily say, listen, I need you to you know,
43:18
we're going to put this guy. I was just like
43:21
with the other ones, sent it up to the department.
43:24
So again it would have been based on who was
43:27
there question, and because of that extreme detail that had
43:32
to go into selection, I think that redacted as asking
43:36
should have. There been a list of names that the
43:38
higher up signed off on in case someone was removed,
43:41
they went to court, they didn't come back, they were
43:43
transferred things like that. Answer like, that's what they list
43:48
as a failsafe, like as a precautionary measure. Question. And
43:52
that's why I think he's saying, like a list of
43:55
five people versus one or two. So if this person
43:58
is not there, what about this one? That one is
44:01
not there either, but maybe this guy you know that
44:03
type of thing, or did you just stand by a
44:07
hunch answer? I just yeah, I just feel like, you know,
44:12
it wasn't I can't know. I mean again, I'm operating
44:15
in hindsight. I mean, at the time, you know that's
44:18
what was done. Question. Yeah, and we are absolutely asking
44:23
you to operate in hindsight. Answer right, question saying like
44:26
Monday morning quarterbacking yourself and your own institution. I get it,
44:30
but like Monday morning quarterbacking the situation. What do you
44:33
think they you know, they're referring to this as the
44:37
BOP and we're not experts. We're coming in, but BOP
44:41
is saying this. I'm just saying, what do they mean
44:44
by this? And what are some things that could have
44:47
been done? Answer right, But those are individuals that are
44:52
coming in looking at a situation that weren't deeply involved
44:55
in it. You know, they weren't the ones that were told, hey, okay,
44:59
I'm talking to my boss and it's going to go
45:01
all the way up the department. That wasn't privy to them.
45:06
That was a need to know basis. But unfortunately, everyone
45:09
who is going to eventually look at this case, says
45:11
the other investigator is going to be doing the same
45:14
exact thing as they are. Answer no, But what I'm
45:18
saying is if we're looking at assessing the situation on
45:22
what happened in real time, that's what I'm talking about.
45:24
So in real time now, if they had known that, hey,
45:27
you know what, these names had to go up and
45:30
be you know, vetted at the same time, maybe it
45:32
would have been a different thought process. The word answers
45:37
and was a possible question and was it possible, and
45:40
maybe you discuss this, was it possible that Hey, listen,
45:44
the shoe officers could have replaced did they have the
45:46
ability to replace Reys if they wanted to, or did
45:49
they have to come up the chain of command for
45:52
the chain of command to tell them who the new inmate?
45:54
He gets cut off by the warden. They were instructed, hey,
45:57
let us know when where he's to have a cell
46:01
mate at all times and to notify let someone know
46:04
because again due to the individual that he was. You
46:07
just don't want to throw anybody question. Okay, but doesn't
46:11
that kind of hinder them from taking action. Let's say
46:14
at the point on that day, you are not in
46:16
the institution, Captain redacted, was there? I understand there was
46:21
an acting warden there, you had the executive staff there.
46:24
Just because the warden is not there, it doesn't mean
46:26
the institution doesn't run. That's why you have, you know,
46:29
people acting on your behalf, you know, so that they
46:32
can make these decisions. Question. So, maybe what Redacted you're
46:36
trying to ask is would somebody, since it sounds like
46:39
you would have to go over your head to even
46:41
make that decision, has to go to the regional director level.
46:45
Would the associate warden have the ability to go to
46:47
the regional director or would have they known to go
46:51
to the regional director? Answer, so, let's say that did happen, right,
46:56
they would have no. I'm saying as far as finding
46:59
out that hey needed a sell mate. So even though
47:02
I'm off that day, I'm still working because I got
47:05
the government phone and they're going to call me and
47:07
tell me, Hey, this is what we got going on.
47:09
He needs a sell mate. And then I would be like, Okay,
47:12
let's see what we have so we can send it up. Question.
47:17
So basically you were always available. Someone was always available
47:20
that if the proper notification was being made up, they
47:24
could send it up the chain. A newer inmate could
47:26
have been assigned. Answer. That's why I carried it. That's
47:30
why I had indiscernible so to I get calls all
47:34
hours of the night, even if I'm off, I'm not off.
47:37
If there's an issue an emergency, I'm called. Yeah. Question okay,
47:41
And if someone does ask should the shoe officers have
47:44
been given the ability? Your answer to that would have been,
47:48
you have that phone with you. Someone should have made
47:50
the notification, so someone in the higher of command. Answer
47:55
someone in the higher command. They'd contact me, So it
47:58
was not like off on paper because I am using
48:01
my leave, but I'm still on duty because you can
48:03
call me on my phone. Question my last two questions
48:08
based on your conversation and after this, based on your
48:11
conversations and this after action report that we just reviewed
48:15
those topics, what are the failures of the BOP that
48:18
allowed Epstein to die? Answer? I'm not. I mean, that's
48:23
I think. I can't. You know, I'm speculating and I'm
48:26
giving personal opinions and I'm not. He gets cut off again.
48:31
I'm not asking you to say why he killed himself
48:34
or if he could have. What I'm saying is, what
48:36
are the failures of the BOP. Hayes jumps in, he
48:40
killed himself because he ain't stupid. He said to himself,
48:43
holy shit, I'm going to spend the rest of my
48:45
life in prison. Question Yeah, yeah, and I'm not. I'm
48:51
not absolutely not asking as far as what his mental
48:54
state could have been or if he could have had
48:57
the ability. But are the failures as you see them
49:00
after we reviewed all of this that you believe what
49:03
did the BOP do wrong in this instance, unless you
49:07
don't think that they did anything wrong. Answer No, I'm
49:10
not saying they did anything wrong. But again, these are
49:13
things that are that you're going to find. I mean,
49:16
right now, I can look at it and say we're
49:18
looking at people not making rounds and all that, but
49:21
there's still an investigation going on. So I don't want
49:23
to sit here and speculate and say he gets cut off. No,
49:28
but we are the ones doing the investigation, and you're
49:31
the leader of the organization that you know of the place.
49:34
That's why this is very relevant question for you to
49:37
answer because you know this was the facility that you oversaw.
49:41
So we're just I'm simply asking, is what do you
49:44
think the problems are as you see them after you
49:47
just heard everything we talked about for it seems like
49:50
the fat last five hours. Answer No, I mean, if
49:53
we could talk, I mean, you're not counting you didn't
49:56
make your rounds in that unit to check on an inmate.
49:59
I mean, that is that is the basics right there.
50:02
You know, we can talk about all the other stuff,
50:04
but basic is you did not go and make those rounds.
50:09
Question and would you also though, add to the fact
50:11
that they didn't replace reyis like they were supposed to
50:14
answer yes, question Okay, what actions could the BP have
50:18
taken to possibly prevent Epstein's death? Because it just sounds
50:22
like they quote the answer would be conduct your rounds,
50:24
conduct your counts, do your job. Get reyis Hayes pipes
50:30
in ninety nine out of one hundred times, it wouldn't
50:32
have happened. Question right, So but in this case, it
50:36
does seem like a lot of this was a result of,
50:39
like you keep on saying, people not doing their jobs.
50:42
But I mean, in all fairness, we've had since Epstein
50:45
died and before, we've had almost sixty suicides. So it's
50:49
the same reoccurring theme, you know, people not making their
50:52
rounds and doing what they're supposed to do. Question, And
50:56
is that the same thing that's happening with them they're
50:58
not doing their rounds or acounts. Answer. I mean, and
51:02
nine times out of ten, every time you look into something,
51:04
it's a matter of them doing checks, you know, not counting,
51:07
you know, so it's normal things. Question, are these other
51:11
instances where we find out that they didn't have cell mates? Answer?
51:15
Single cell you know, I mean you have access to
51:17
the data. I mean you look at it. You look
51:19
at the members of a single cell inmate. But there
51:22
is instances where you know, sometimes you do have to
51:25
put somebody in a single cell. Question. Sure, answer, But
51:29
you know there's other suicides and they don't stop. You
51:31
know some of it. You know staff had no control
51:34
over it, and some staff had control over it. Question
51:38
and I do apologize. I said that was the last question,
51:40
but I guess I should ask in Monday morning quarterbacking yourself.
51:44
Is there anything that you should have done differently as
51:46
the mcc warden answer as far as what this situation? Question? Yeah,
51:52
just anything that you feel like, oh, you know, like
51:54
I should have done this better, or I could have
51:56
done this better, that type of thing. Answer I can
52:00
question just for the record, let me just okay, anything
52:03
else you have answer no, Hayes, that's it. Question Anything
52:10
that you wanted to add to anything Warden, anything that
52:13
was said, anything that we missed or you wanted to add.
52:17
Answer no, No, that's it. Question Is there anything you
52:20
think we missed talking about? Answer no, not that I
52:24
can think of. Question No, Yeah, no, we got you.
52:28
Hayes jumps in like I was impressed that you did that.
52:31
He couldn't go through this, I would have been to
52:33
the bathroom, like I got to do this. I got
52:35
to do this. I mean I got to make a
52:37
phone call. I want to take a nap. He just
52:39
sat there and answered all the questions. He's not even
52:42
sweating under his armpits question and thank you very much
52:47
for your cooperation. I appreciate you. The recording is showing
52:51
that this is five hours and fifteen minutes, so this
52:54
was an epic, epic interview. It's currently seven eighteen pm
52:57
on Wednesday, October twenty seventh. This is Senior Special Agent redacted,
53:03
and I'm turning off the recorder. All right, folks, Well,
53:05
there you have it, the OIG interview with the Warden
53:09
from mcc all. The information that goes with this episode
53:14
can be found in the description box.