Latest / Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger / A Razor-Sharp Conservative, Up North

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A Razor-Sharp Conservative, Up North · Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, and welcome to Q&A.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Jay Nordlinger,
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: and our guest today is Jason Kenney,
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: the veteran Canadian politician and,
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: for my money,
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: political thinker.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: He served in the House of Commons for almost 20 years.
• 0:15
  He held various ministerial positions in the premiership of
• 0:19
  Stephen Harper,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: including Minister of Defense.
• 0:23
  He was the premier,
• 0:24
  it would be natural for me to say governor,
• 0:26
  of Alberta for four years.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: But he started out in Ontario, born in Oakville.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, Jason Kennedy.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: And did I just say Kennedy?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so used to politicians here in America.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody makes that.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody does that.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is Kenny a good Irish name like Kennedy?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: As Irish as Patty's Pig.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, our family is from just down the road.
• 0:50
  We're on the Wicklow side of the border where the Kennedys are
• 0:53
  from the Wexford side.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we're probably related going back.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: I see.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: I want to assure you, I do know your name and long have.
• 1:01
  And I want to tell you that you are not the first guest this
• 1:04
  program has had from Oakville.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Can you guess who the other one might be?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Just can you guess?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Boy, I'm stumped.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Think quiz show.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Alex Trebek.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Eric Monkman.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever heard of Monk Mania?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was a Monk Maniac.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: He was a contestant on University Challenge,
• 1:24
  maybe the most arresting contestant they've had over the
• 1:27
  decades when Jeremy Paxman
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: was hosting.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so Monk Mania swept some lands or made a ripple in some lands.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I was a Monk Maniac.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And Eric Monkman of Oakville, Ontario was on this program.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was a thrill for me, let me tell you.
• 1:46
  So you started in Ontario,
• 1:48
  but are you kind of a Westerner now in Alberta?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you were premier.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: My family moved west when I was very young.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I grew up primarily in a rural village in southern Saskatchewan,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: which is the heart of the great Canadian plains,
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: our breadbasket.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine North Dakota, but going on forever.
• 2:06
  And I actually went to college in the States in San Francisco
• 2:10
  to a great books program.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: The St.
• 2:12
  Ignatius Institute at the University of San Francisco and came
• 2:16
  back to Canada where
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I founded the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and then ended up,
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: as you just enumerated,
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: in Canadian political life.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: my impression is,
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: you tell me whether this is right or wrong,
• 2:29
  that Donald Trump and the Republican Party here in the States
• 2:32
  have done wonders for
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Canadian patriotism.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if Canadian patriotism is something like at an all-time high.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: I realize there's wartime and so on.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that's true,
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: but it's not unqualified because we have longstanding internal tension.
• 2:50
  So while,
• 2:52
  you know,
• 2:53
  when he came to office and started the unbelievable campaign
• 2:59
  of...
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: denigration of threats,
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: the 51st state calling our prime ministers,
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: governor,
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: threatening to annex us and use economic pressure to do so.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oddly,
• 3:11
  oddly and inexplicably focusing on Canada more for prejudicial
• 3:15
  tariff treatment
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: than the People's Republic of China or historic American adversaries.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: When you put all of that together,
• 3:22
  And layered it on top of what has been a long latent Canadian
• 3:26
  tradition of
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: skepticism,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: anxiety towards American power.
• 3:31
  It has created a,
• 3:32
  I guess,
• 3:34
  a renewed sense of Canadian national solidarity and pride.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: The qualifier,
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: the caveat is that we've had longstanding,
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: as you know,
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Quebec nationalism,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: which sometimes expresses itself as outright separatism.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And there seems to be...
• 3:48
  a chance that the quebecers will elect a a separatist
• 3:52
  sovereignist government later
• 3:53
  this year and in alberta particularly the west generally but
• 3:57
  alberta in particular
• 3:58
  um there's long been a sense of alienation from the center of
• 4:02
  the country uh which
• 4:03
  has also been expressed in a minority separatist sentiment but
• 4:06
  those are kind of
• 4:07
  sidebars i would say as a general sentiment um well look here
• 4:13
  here's the proof
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: point
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: The Conservative Party,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: to which I belong,
• 4:17
  had been leading in the polls nationally for a couple of years
• 4:22
  by as much as 25 or
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: 30 points,
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: unprecedented.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone,
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: including hardcore liberal partisans,
• 4:31
  assumed there was going to be a supermajority Conservative
• 4:34
  government last year.
• 4:36
  But the Trump disruption completely flipped Canadian politics
• 4:41
  upside down,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: resurrected the liberal.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: First of all,
• 4:45
  it helped to accelerate the departure of Justin Trudeau because
• 4:48
  it sort of raised
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: the stakes within his own party and externally.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that accelerated his departure.
• 4:54
  They brought in Mark Carney and the country saw in him somebody
• 4:58
  who had the gravitas of
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: to manage the chaos of Trump's attacks.
• 5:06
  And so the Liberal Party went from a 25-point polling deficit
• 5:10
  to winning the last
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: election,
• 5:15
  partly because the Liberal Party was very effective in rallying
• 5:19
  people around the
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: flag.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it is a very real thing.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes,
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: I tell you,
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I have in my notes here,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: and you'll recognize this phrase because you're a student of politics.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember from 1992 in the UK?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's the sun what won it.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Very few people remember that.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it was the day that,
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Labour,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: under the great Welshman Neil Kinnock,
• 5:45
  was polling about 10 points ahead of John Major leading up to
• 5:50
  that election day.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: You are good, Jason.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: I just looked this up this morning.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: You are good.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Major was the sort of gray man,
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: the mid-level banker who replaced,
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: the great Margaret Thatcher.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And Kinnick was the colorful labor populist.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And, of course, the son under...
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And Robert Maxwell's proprietorship ran the cover,
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: as you know,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: recall,
• 6:18
  The Sun used to have a salacious page three sunshine pinup girl
• 6:23
  who was usually
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: topless.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So they ran a photo of a...
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: shall we say, Rubenesque lady in her 60s.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it said, the sunshine girl under Kinnick.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then there was an unbelievable last minute flip in the polls.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And The Sun,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: the down market tabloid,
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: the next day took credit for the win,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: writing the famous front page tabloid headline,
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: it's The Sun What Won It.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Man, what a memory.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: What a memory.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And was it Trump won it for the liberals in that election?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, absolutely no doubt.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: And any liberal in an honest moment would admit that.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it happened partly because I think...
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: as I say, it changed the total issue matrix.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Before that,
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: it had been focused on cost of living,
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: rather more prosaic concerns like inflation,
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: housing affordability,
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: food inflation,
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: as well as other issues,
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: crime and Trudeau's mismanagement of the immigration system.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So there were kind of more prosaic domestic policy set that Mr.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Polyev,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: the conservative leader,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: had really dominated.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then
• 7:44
  Suddenly Trump came in and turned the tables over and made the
• 7:48
  primary concern for him.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 7:50
  there was really a bifurcation of the electorate and older
• 7:52
  voters who have done,
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: who are more well settled,
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: have done well with asset inflation,
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: housing,
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: their home ownership,
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: and perhaps are more connected to an older time of Canadian nationalism.
• 8:08
  They reacted with great hostility and anxiety to the Trump
• 8:12
  threats and insults.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so we found Mr.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Carney's calm,
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: cool,
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: managerial competence,
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: gravitas,
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: and maturity a kind of compelling alternative to
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: to the more disruptive and populist style of my former intern,
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Mr.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Poliev,
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: who had a hard time switching.
• 8:40
  He had a hard time transitioning to the new Trump ballot
• 8:44
  question from his
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: understandable focus on cost of living.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the dynamic.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: We still have a competitive system.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Mr. Poliev...
• 8:54
  had the highest popular vote score of a conservative leader in
• 8:56
  nearly four decades.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: But what happened was the left collapsed,
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: the NDP,
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: which is the Social Democratic Party here,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: and the Quebec Sovereignist Party,
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: the Bloc Québécois.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Their support collapsed into Mr.
• 9:09
  Carney's party as a bulwark to help protect them and stop the
• 9:14
  Trump threat.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's essentially what happened.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Jason, Kenny, you mentioned earlier this question of secession.
• 9:23
  And you made me think of a conversation I had quite some time
• 9:26
  ago with Charles
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Krauthammer,
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: who had a place for Canada in his heart.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: I believe he was born there.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, he was.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And he went to McGill.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And he, a couple of things I remember.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: By the way,
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: like two other great Jewish American conservative public intellectuals,
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: David Frum and David Brooks.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Did those two Davids both go to McGill?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, they're both from Toronto.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know that about Brooks.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think of him as in the New York area.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll be darned.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Charles said something funny.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that this is what I remember.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: It may not be true now,
• 10:05
  but I think he said something like 80% of the Canadian
• 10:08
  population lives within 30
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: miles of the U.S.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: border.
• 10:13
  Then he said,
• 10:13
  think of Canada as a horizontal chili,
• 10:16
  which I thought was quite funny.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Then we talked about various things.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: These are terms from antiquity, like Meech Lake.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And he spoke of the possible breakup of Canada.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, why would you want to break up?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: He said something like, one of the freest...
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: most humane, most liberal countries.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: He meant that with highest admiration in the history of the world.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: One of the freest, most humane, most liberal countries in all the world.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that made an impression on me.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, yeah, I agree.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Why not keep the damn thing going?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: A bit on Canadian identity.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Has it had...
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to say an anti-American component.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what I mean.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Has Canadian identity had the sense of, and we're not American?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it has, listen, it has had an anti-American component.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Recall that English Canada was founded by United Empire loyalists,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Tories,
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: who fled the American Revolution.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: You'll recall that a third of the...
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: People in the American 13 colonies were Tories or loyalists,
• 11:31
  and many of them fled north and settled in what became the
• 11:36
  Atlantic Canadian
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: provinces and Upper Canada,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Lower Canada,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: which became Ontario and Quebec.
• 11:42
  And so the very foundation of English Canada was a negative
• 11:46
  reaction to the American Revolution.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: and then if you'll recall,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: one of the causes of the revolution,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: as enumerated in the Declaration of Independence,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: was the Quebec Act of the British Parliament,
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: which protected the Catholic religion and the French language of...
• 12:07
  what we now call Quebec,
• 12:09
  which had been conquered by the British in 1759.
• 12:13
  And so the Francophone Catholics cleaved to the British crown
• 12:20
  to protect them from
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: the Protestant Revolution,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: as they saw it,
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: south of the border.
• 12:27
  And then Confederation,
• 12:28
  the creation of the Dominion of Canada in 1867,
• 12:30
  our
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: first step towards full independence,
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: was partly a response to American annexationism in the 1860s,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: coming out of the Civil War,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: also in response to the failed invasion of Canada by the Fenians,
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: who were basically the...
• 12:49
  Union Army of the Irish regiments of the Union Army who at the
• 12:53
  end of the war were
• 12:55
  restless and they came up with this crazy idea of invading and
• 13:00
  kidnapping the
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Canadian provinces in exchange for the liberation of Ireland.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we had actual invasions.
• 13:07
  My ancestors fought the Fenians and my ancestors fought in the
• 13:13
  War of 1812.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So in a family like mine,
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: we have a deep kind of latent but still deep memory of these things,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: which is the anti-American tradition,
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: which used to be a Tory tradition,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: a tradition of a kind of an old school conservatism.
• 13:27
  In fact,
• 13:28
  in the 18...
• 13:28
  Sorry,
• 13:29
  in the 70s...
• 13:30
  I'm going to update my centuries here.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: In the 19...
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: 50s and 60s,
• 13:34
  the most important Canadian conservative political philosopher
• 13:37
  was George Grant,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: who wrote famously Lament for a Nation,
• 13:43
  where he bemoaned the fact that Canada was losing its separate
• 13:47
  British identity and
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: becoming Americanized both culturally and economically.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, there is that deep vein.
• 13:54
  Now,
• 13:55
  in more recent years,
• 13:57
  that anti-Americanism has shifted more from the right to the
• 13:59
  left and
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Brian Mulroney's conservative government,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: negotiated the free trade agreement with George Bush,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: George H.W.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Bush, which then turned into NAFTA.
• 14:11
  So conservatives have become much more open to a deep economic
• 14:15
  partnership with the
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: United States.
• 14:17
  But that latent anxiety about American power has always been
• 14:22
  part of our political culture.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: A literary question or two before we proceed with conservatism.
• 14:28
  I was thinking this morning,
• 14:29
  knowing we talk about Alice Munro and Margaret Atwood.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And Alice Munro, for my money, is a genius, is a freaking genius.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Say what you will about it.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Things in her personal life, blah, blah, blah.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Scandal about her, fine.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: But just a brilliant craftswoman and deserving of her Nobel Prize.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Margaret Atwood,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: I only know politically,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: so to speak,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: as sort of an abortion proponent,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: sort of pro-abortion figure.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've never read her.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure she's very, very talented.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Are there things distinctly Canadian about these two?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well...
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think more so Alice Munro,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: whose stories are set in rural Ontario,
• 15:16
  and very much with that sensibility of kind of stoic
• 15:21
  descendants of United Empire
• 15:23
  loyalists with a kind of Victorian moral sensibility and the
• 15:28
  hypocrisy that often
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: lies sub Rosa.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: So she really gets at...
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: the heart of that old Central Canadian culture,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: that Presbyterian upstanding...
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: You mean Central geographically?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Central Canada.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I must confess, I've not read a lot of...
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Margaret Atwood,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: for the same reasons,
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: her most famous novel,
• 16:03
  out of which she's probably made a fortune with the TV rights
• 16:07
  and everything.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: The Handmaid's Tale is not set in Canada.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the premise has always been
• 16:16
  It seems to me it violates basic rules of good literature or
• 16:19
  drama because it
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: violates the willing suspension of disbelief.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: But she does, some of her work is set in the Canadian frontier.
• 16:28
  You know,
• 16:28
  one of the characteristics of Canadian literature and art is
• 16:32
  that it...
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: It is often set in this conscious of or has echoes of this enormous,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: the enormity of this country.
• 16:41
  You're right that 90% of the Canadian population lives within
• 16:45
  100 miles of the U.S.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: border.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: But we're all,
• 16:48
  most of us are still conscious of this huge endless hinterland
• 16:51
  and the cold and
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: hospitable environment.
• 16:54
  Those are the things that echo through most good Canadian
• 16:58
  literature,
• 16:59
  poetry,
• 16:59
  and art.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Jason Kenney,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: this is a question or a couple of questions that require an hour,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: two hours,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: but do with them what you will.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: How did you get to be a conservative,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: with a small c,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: and what is a conservative in your book?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: by the way,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: before I answer that,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to say,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: if people are interested in classic Canadian novelists,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'd just like to encourage them to check out Robertson Davies,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: who very much comes from that Red Tory tradition,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: the George Grant tradition I was referring to earlier.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: He must have had Welsh roots.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 17:41
  And an absolutely brilliant and underappreciated mid-century
• 17:45
  Canadian novelist.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: How did I become a conservative?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, mid-20th century.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: How did I become a conservative?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, not naturally.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: As a young guy, I grew up in the 70s and 80s when Canada never really had
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: A Reagan-Thatcher revolution.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: we had Brian Mulroney,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: who was the prime minister from 1984 to 93,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: was a modest,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: he was close to those two great leaders.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: But he never had pretensions to be leading a great ideologically informed
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: conservative revolution.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: He was somewhat more incremental in reforming a sclerotic welfare state.
• 18:37
  You know,
• 18:37
  he privatized a bunch of what we call crown corporations,
• 18:40
  state-owned enterprises.
• 18:43
  But there wasn't the same scale of ambition because everything
• 18:46
  we do in Canada in
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: our politics tends to be more incremental.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: and less, and less ideological.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I grew up in a Canada,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: which was dominated,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: to borrow where that you used earlier,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Berkian.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in a Canada.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Reagan must have liked Mulroney a lot.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: He asked Mulroney to speak at his funeral, didn't he?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Indeed.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Which he did.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Brian Mulroney was one of the eulogists,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: and he was also one of the eulogists at the funeral of George H.W.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Bush.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So the Bushes and the Mulroneys had a very close relationship.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and so and most famously,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: in 1985,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Ronald Reagan,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: President Reagan came to Quebec City,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: was hosted by Prime Minister Mulroney,
• 19:29
  who was then in the first year of his premiership for what in
• 19:33
  mid-March during St.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Patrick's Day.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, they were both proud.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: I remember the pictures of the raising of the mugs.
• 19:40
  There was a gala at the end of which there was a gala
• 19:46
  performance at the big
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: theater in Quebec City.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they both came on stage at the end and sang,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: as they loved to do,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: when Irish eyes are smiling.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it became known as the Shamrock Summit.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was sort of the birth of the free trade process.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a very warm relationship.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: How did I become a conservative?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in a Canada where...
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: In the 1970s and 80s,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: there had been this sort of deepening welfare state under Pierre Trudeau,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: a country that had,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: under Trudeau and his predecessor,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Lester Pearson,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: from the...
• 20:24
  early 60s through the early 80s had been determined to cut any
• 20:30
  remaining apron
• 20:30
  strings with the united kingdom that led to uh our own you know
• 20:35
  formalizing a
• 20:36
  written canadian constitution rather than simply being an
• 20:38
  emanation of the
• 20:39
  unwritten british constitution um our a separate canadian flag
• 20:44
  as opposed to the
• 20:44
  old ensign with the union jack in the corner like australia new
• 20:47
  zealand still have
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And through all of our institutions,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: there was this sort of growing domination of what we now would look back,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: perhaps with some nostalgia,
• 20:58
  as a rather benign kind of liberalism as opposed to ultra-woke
• 21:02
  progressivism.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: But nevertheless,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: that was the Canada in which I grew up,
• 21:05
  where all of the media and almost all of the public
• 21:09
  intellectuals and most of our
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: politics was center-left.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I sort of adopted that uncritically.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Until I went to college in the States,
• 21:18
  happened to be at a very conservative program founded by the
• 21:21
  well-known Jesuit
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Father Joe Fessio,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: who was the American protege of Cardinal Ratzinger.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: And for the first time, I encountered conservative thinking both in...
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: in deep historical terms,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: if you will,
• 21:35
  all the way back to like sort of Aristotelian philosophy and
• 21:40
  modern conservative
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: political theory,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: but also applied like contemporary conservative,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: thoughtful conservative commentary.
• 21:46
  I remember my first roommate at college subscribed to the
• 21:51
  National Review.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And this would have been 1987.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I used to,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: being a sharp-tongued Canadian lefty,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: I used to mock and ridicule him for this,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: reading this fascist rag and all of the,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I had all of the usual tropes of a precocious young left.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: That was a great period for NR.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then I,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: but when he wasn't in the room,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: at least I had the intellectual curiosity furtively to
• 22:17
  I glanced through the pages of National Review as though it was
• 22:22
  on the index,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: and I started reading Buckley and all of the greats in NR at the time,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: and I started to terrify myself by finding that I agreed with them.
• 22:32
  So there was a process while I was in college where my politics
• 22:35
  began to change,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: my priors changed,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: and by the time I came back to Canada in the early 90s,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was a pretty well-settled conservative.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Same with me.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not from Canada.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm from near Canada and Michigan, but much, much the same with me.
• 22:53
  So I'm thinking of the I followed the election of the election
• 22:57
  campaign contest
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: between Brian Mulroney and John Turner.
• 23:02
  And it seemed to me each was a very good representative of his
• 23:05
  general point of view.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Did you have much time for Mr. Turner?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, in fact, I was close to Mr. Turner.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: John Turner was a great Canadian, Olympic athlete, Rhodes Scholar.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he was a sprinter for Canada in, I think, the 1960 Olympics.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: He was a wonderful man,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: highly regarded,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: was the finance minister in the Pierre Trudeau administration,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: quit because Trudeau was so profligate on fiscal mismanagement.
• 23:42
  And Turner came back and succeeded Pierre Trudeau as the
• 23:45
  Liberal leader in 1984,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: was briefly Prime Minister,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: lost to Mulroney.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then most famously,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: as you've referred to,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: alluded to,
• 23:53
  he ran a strongly nationalist Liberal Party campaign against
• 23:58
  the US Free Trade
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Agreement in 1988.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really one of the epic Canadian election campaigns.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, Turner was lost to Mulroney.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because Quebecers rallied around the free trade agreement.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And but that's when we had normal politics, I would say.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 24:20
  these were real statesmen who still respected each other and
• 24:26
  conducted themselves
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: with great civility and maturity.
• 24:30
  There was no like angry down market,
• 24:34
  performative populism and demagoguery in our politics.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: I can kind of look back,
• 24:41
  I think we all look back in those days and those vigorous
• 24:44
  debates with some degree
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: of...
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: nostalgia,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: I will say that Mr.
• 24:51
  Turner's skepticism about deeper economic integration with the
• 24:55
  United States
• 24:56
  through the Free Trade Agreement is now being given a positive
• 24:59
  reconsideration in
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: the light of Trump's constant destabilizing threats.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's a growing view that perhaps John Turner was right after all.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not my view, but there's a growing view around that.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: And in the same vein,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: some people say,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 25:15
  de Gaulle was right to separate from the United States and not
• 25:18
  depend on the United
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: States.
• 25:19
  My view is General de Gaulle and John Turner were not right at
• 25:23
  those times.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: I can... By the way... Their defenders have good cards to play.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: You won't find...
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: I have a certain admiration for de Gaulle and de Gaullism,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: but from a Canadian perspective,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: he was...
• 25:38
  a very complicated figure because he came here to ostensibly
• 25:42
  celebrate Canada as
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: the centenary of our confederation in 1967.
• 25:49
  And he famously gave a speech from the balcony of the Montreal
• 25:54
  City Hall to a crowd
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: of Quebecers in which he declared,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: «Vivre le Québec,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: vivre le Québec libre,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: long live free Québec ».
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: The next day, Prime Minister Pearson effectively made him PNG.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: They called him the French ambassador.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And le grand président,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: the great French president de Gaulle,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: had to leave Canada,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: cut short his visit,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: because he had essentially endorsed the breakup of Canada,
• 26:29
  which left a very bitter taste in the mouths of a country still
• 26:32
  made up of World
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: War II veterans.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: who had made great sacrifices in the liberation of France.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: So de Gaulle has a very complex legacy in Canadian politics.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
• 26:44
  Well,
• 26:44
  speaking of Quebecers,
• 26:47
  I say Quebec and Quebecers,
• 26:48
  I grew up with that.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: We looked at Jean Chrétien in the news the other day, I think age 92.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I must say, I felt some fondness for the man.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: I liked his spirit.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he's a real, he's a spirited nonagenarian gent.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is true.
• 27:07
  He was Prime Minister after Brian Mulroney from 1993 until
• 27:10
  2002,
• 27:10
  for the next 10 years,
• 27:11
  or 2002.
• 27:11
  He really personifies a certain kind of almost caricature of
• 27:13
  French-Canadian language.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: He grew up in a family of 12, big Catholic family.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Not much money.
• 27:34
  In a hinterland lumber town from a relatively poor background
• 27:39
  in a Quebec of what...
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's been this kind of...
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: The pre-Quiet Revolution Quebec,
• 27:46
  the Quiet Revolution was this period in the 1960s when Quebec
• 27:50
  deracinated itself
• 27:52
  quite radically and suddenly from its deep Catholic roots and
• 27:55
  culture and moved
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: most of the functions of civil society from the church,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: like the operation of the hospitals,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: welfare and schools,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: to the state...
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: So Chrétien grew up in the pre-Quiet Revolution Quebec,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: which Quebec secularists now refer to as Le Grand Noisseur,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: the Great Darkness,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: which is absurd,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: But Chrétien came from that background,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: was a strong,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: proud Quebecer,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: French-Canadian,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: but also a hugely proud Federalist.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: And he played on that.
• 28:26
  He said,
• 28:26
  look,
• 28:27
  in the context of Quebec separatism in the 70s and 80s,
• 28:29
  he was the
• 28:31
  one of the most prominent French Canadians,
• 28:33
  to make the argument for staying in Canada.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: He was a populist originally from the centre-left,
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: but he governed definitively from the centre-right.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: He cut federal government spending by nearly 20% in the mid-1990s.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: The first prime minister to have the courage to get on top of...
• 28:54
  the kind of sclerotic overspending welfare state created by
• 28:58
  Pierre Trudeau,
• 28:59
  his former mentor.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that set him up to reduce corporate taxes,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: capital gains taxes,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: personal taxes,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: do a lot of deregulation,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: and approve major resource projects,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: including the development of the Alberta oil sands,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: he had the rhetoric of a kind of center-left populist,
• 29:19
  but in fact governed very effectively from the center-right and
• 29:22
  has now looked upon
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: with great fondness.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Jason Kenney, a different topic.
• 29:28
  It seems to me that there's a,
• 29:30
  I'll say,
• 29:30
  substantial Ukrainian-Canadian population.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 29:38
  And my impression is your country has been staunch in support
• 29:43
  of the Ukrainians
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: against this Russian onslaught.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Am I right in that?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Pardon me,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'll offer a small caveat,
• 29:53
  but Brian Mulroney's conservative government was the first in
• 29:59
  the world after
• 29:59
  Poland to recognize Ukraine's independence following the 1991
• 30:04
  referendum when
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: George H.W.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Bush was still prevaricating following his infamous... Chicken Kiev.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Chicken Kiev speech.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the Bush administration was...
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: was concerned about the breakup of the former Soviet Union,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: but Brian Mulroney,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: perhaps partly because his deputy prime minister had Ukrainian roots.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very important factor in Canadian history.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we were quick to rush to the support of the new Ukrainian Republic.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Prime Minister Harper was one of...
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: as a head of government in the G8,
• 30:40
  led the fight to remove Vladimir Putin from the G8 to shrink it
• 30:43
  back to the G7
• 30:44
  following Putin's de facto invasion of Ukraine and Crimea and
• 30:48
  the Donbass in 2014.
• 30:49
  And as his defense minister,
• 30:50
  I was one of the first defense ministers in NATO to deploy...
• 30:59
  a large-scale training operation to help modernize the
• 31:02
  Ukrainian military and help
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: to move them to kind of NATO operation standards.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: We did that starting in 2014.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we provided them with a lot of supplies starting way back then,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: including some very sensitive intelligence.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: By the way,
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: as defense minister,
• 31:20
  provided the Ukrainians with real-time radar satellite imagery
• 31:24
  of the movement of
• 31:25
  Russian separatists in the Donbass against the express wishes
• 31:29
  of the Pentagon under
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: the Obama administration.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we... Let me interject something, if I may.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder, Harper talked to me about this on this show.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Were you there, I think, in Australia when Putin extended...
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: So he came up to Harper at an APEC meeting in Australia for a pull aside,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: extended his hand and Harper sort of looked at his hand for a moment.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then shook it and said,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: listen,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'll shake your hand for one reason,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: to look you in the eye and to tell you to get the hell out of Ukraine.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: So Stephen was very direct and really was the most,
• 32:17
  I think he was the strongest Western leader in denouncing
• 32:21
  Putin's aggression.
• 32:23
  I wrote a piece about him for which I talked with you titled
• 32:28
  Leader of the West.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that now.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right to identify that.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I will tell you that in the 2015 election campaign,
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: the one that Mr.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Harper lost,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: regrettably for me,
• 32:42
  the biggest applause line he would get from partisan
• 32:46
  conservative rallies and
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: audiences was...
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: And reciting his declaration to Putin,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: get out of Ukraine,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: and his expression of solidarity for Ukraine.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it was wildly popular in the Conservative Party then,
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: because,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: we have a lot of Eastern...
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Unthinkable in my country.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's just so weird, Jason.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any idea what it's like to be an American now?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I will say... It's just topsy-turvy.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's bizarre.
• 33:15
  I think part of the reason why Canadian support for Ukraine was
• 33:21
  so strong is that
• 33:22
  it's partly because we have a large share of our population who
• 33:28
  are either emigres
• 33:30
  from or descendants of immigrants from East Bloc post-communist
• 33:34
  countries.
• 33:36
  And so they bring with them a deep skepticism towards Moscow's
• 33:40
  imperialism.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Jay,
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: I must regrettably report that on the Canadian right today,
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: this is now a contested issue.
• 33:51
  I think partly because so much of what happens in American
• 33:54
  politics washes over into Canada.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: We all, you know, back when legacy media prevailed,
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: people were as likely to watch the NBC or ABC news as CBC or CTV.
• 34:08
  So we would always get,
• 34:09
  you know,
• 34:09
  kind of,
• 34:10
  we're hyper-conscious of American political trends.
• 34:12
  And now,
• 34:13
  in the kind of fractured,
• 34:16
  disaggregated world of online media and social media,
• 34:21
  Many Canadians on the right who have unplugged from traditional
• 34:25
  legacy media have
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: instead plugged into American alt-right media as their primary sources of
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: information,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's Tucker Carlson or these alt-right bloggers and podcasters.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so they have infected,
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: a large segment of more sort of populist alt-right Canadians.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Hard to put a number on it, but let me tell you this.
• 34:52
  When I frequently post on social media in support of Ukraine or
• 34:57
  to be critical of Putin,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: My accounts light up with vicious attacks,
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: not just from Russian bot accounts,
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: but from right-wing alt-right Canadians.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so...
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: unfortunately,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: the madness that's taken over much of the American right on this,
• 35:19
  which somehow regards Vladimir Putin as the savior of Western
• 35:23
  civilization and
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Christendom,
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: and Vladimir Zelensky as a war criminal.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, listen, Jay, I'll be very blunt with you.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: The guy who replaced me in the Alberta legislature in my seat...
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: He amplified a comment that Volodymyr Zelensky was a war criminal.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: So these people whose brains were broken during COVID,
• 35:46
  who think that the COVID vaccines are some kind of globalist
• 35:48
  conspiracy theory,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: somehow part of their worldview is Russian expansionism.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is irrational.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't understand it, but it's affecting us too.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think I coined a phrase,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: and I have bored my readers and listeners with it for some years now,
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: but the old expression is,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: you are what you eat.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it occurred to me, you are the media you consume.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: When I hear people talk, I can often tell what media they consume.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: It makes a huge difference.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Some of us have been talking about...
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the survival of NATO, the purpose of NATO.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Does NATO without the United States mean anything?
• 36:32
  It's one thing for the United States not to be in NATO,
• 36:35
  but what if the US were hostile to NATO?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: These questions,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: this is just,
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: they're just bizarre questions,
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: surreal questions,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: but it makes sense to ask them.
• 36:47
  And I wonder what you think about NATO in which your country
• 36:53
  has been such a
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: has been a stalwart member.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we've been a stalwart member when called upon.
• 37:02
  I want to offer a caveat,
• 37:04
  a self-critical one,
• 37:05
  as a former Canadian defence minister.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Look, we, of course, Canada... Thinking of budget, maybe.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, budget, budget.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: But listen, historically...
• 37:14
  Canada has been always one of the most reliable members of the
• 37:19
  Western Alliance.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: We were on the battlefields of Flanders in September of 1914,
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: three years before the Americans joined us.
• 37:32
  We played a critical role in the ultimate victory in the First
• 37:36
  World War.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: I remember hearing about Dieppe when I was quite young.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the Second War.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: But Vimy emerged very famously in the First War, Dieppe in the Second.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: We played a disparate...
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: of the five beaches that were taken on D-Day,
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: two were taken by Americans,
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: two by the Brits,
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: and one by Canada.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: So we played... Was that Juno maybe?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Juneau Beach.
• 38:00
  For a country one-tenth the size of the United States,
• 38:03
  we had half as much presence on D-Day.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, this is a country that has always punched above its weight.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: For the first half of the Cold War,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: from roughly 1945 to 65,
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: we had one of the largest NATO militaries.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: But then Trudeau started to take a very early peace dividend.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: And roughly since the late 60s, we coasted and underfunded our military.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: We did punch above our weight in Afghanistan.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: We lost 152 men in Afghanistan and one woman.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: We went straight into Kandahar, some of the toughest missions.
• 38:39
  And so you can imagine how much it hurts to hear your president
• 38:42
  say that the
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: allies,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: that the NATO allies,
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: they hanged back a little bit from the front lines.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Complete rubbish in the case of the Canadians.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: But we did underfund our military.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I must give credit where it's due.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: President Trump has been right.
• 38:59
  to call out many of America's NATO allies for comfortably
• 39:04
  living under the American
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: security umbrella while underfunding defense.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be said more so of Canada than any other country.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so he's been right.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: And one of his foreign and security policy successes has been
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: to compel NATO allies to step up.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think Vladimir Putin, of course, has played a role in that.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: So now Canada is on,
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 39:28
  a credible track to go from sort of 1.5% defense expenditure
• 39:34
  per GDP to 3%,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: 3.5%,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: perhaps above that.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: So credit where it's due,
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: but it's regrettable that he's done this at the same time while he's been
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: undermining the very same alliance.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: You may be interested in this, Jason.
• 39:47
  We had on this program not long ago,
• 39:49
  Nick Burns,
• 39:50
  our Nicholas Burns,
• 39:51
  who is most recently U.S.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: ambassador to China.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: But he was at one time U.S.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: ambassador to NATO and no Trump man.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, yes, credit where it's due.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, now these people are having to
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: these nations to pony up, so to speak.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: But of course,
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Vladimir Putin concentrates the mind,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: which is why Sweden and Finland are in NATO.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is just an aside, but I thought of something.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: And when you mentioned Pierre Trudeau,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: and earlier we said that,
• 40:19
  you said that Brian Mulroney had been a eulogist for Reagan and
• 40:23
  for George W.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Bush.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Pierre Trudeau asked Fidel Castro to be a pallbearer at his funeral.
• 40:29
  Yeah.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Funny story about that.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, by the way, very good point.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: When in the Canadian liberal imagination,
• 40:37
  Trudeau was this colossus who had this enormous respect on the
• 40:40
  world stage,
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: was a great world leader.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: He had a bit of a tier mondiste vibe.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: approach during the Cold War,
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: which was,
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Canada was a NATO ally,
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: but for him,
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: that was somewhat reluctant.
• 40:53
  And he loved sort of Tierra Mondese leaders like Castro and
• 41:01
  visited Cuba at least twice.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: He loved tweaking
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: American sensibilities by leaning into the Canada-Cuba relationship.
• 41:09
  Oh,
• 41:09
  Trudeau was the first Western leader into China to recognize
• 41:12
  the PRC before Nixon.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: We were there in 1970.
• 41:17
  And by the way,
• 41:18
  some of this is an echo of Trudeau's more youthful dalliance
• 41:22
  with communism.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't...
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean that,
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to sound- No,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: we're not being McCarthyite,
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: we're just being- McCarthyite on this.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean,
• 41:31
  he's infamously spent several months backpacking around China
• 41:36
  with a buddy in 1956,
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: 57,
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: at the height of the Great Leap Forward.
• 41:41
  When something like 60 million Chinese were being starved in
• 41:47
  effectively what was a
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: planned famine,
• 41:48
  it was essentially the Maoist version of the Holodomor trying
• 41:51
  to starve out farmers
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: resisting collectivism.
• 41:55
  So Trudeau undoubtedly would have seen some of the horrors of
• 41:59
  the Great Leap Forward.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: In 56, 57.
• 42:03
  And yet he came back and wrote a travelogue called Two
• 42:07
  Innocents in China,
• 42:09
  which was an encomium to the great leader Mao Zedong and failed
• 42:15
  to mention any.
• 42:17
  uh of of of his deprivations and human rights violations and
• 42:21
  the planned famine
• 42:22
  trudeau also famously visited or infamously visited moscow uh
• 42:26
  at least once in the
• 42:27
  1950s as a kind of university age guy did he go with margaret
• 42:32
  after they were
• 42:32
  married i remember a picture on him he went with margaret to
• 42:35
  cuba not i don't think
• 42:36
  i'm not sure she probably went to moscow with him as prime
• 42:38
  minister as well you
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: know i'm thinking of bernie sanders frankly
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't mean that as a joke, incidentally.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: My point is,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: if he was really this kind of colossal figure on the world stage,
• 42:52
  then why is it that the only sitting head of state to attend
• 42:55
  his funeral was this
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: petty third world dictator,
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Fidel Castro.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you an amazing story.
• 43:03
  I was staying at the Intercontinental Hotel in Old Montreal to
• 43:06
  attend that funeral
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: in the year 2000,
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: October 2000.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: And staying on whatever the 12th floor, I hit the down button.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Wait a moment.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: The elevator doors open up.
• 43:19
  I walk in and there are about half a dozen Cuban security
• 43:25
  guards with El Jefe,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: El Comandante Fidel Castro.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a brief elevator ride with Fidel Castro, if you can believe it.
• 43:35
  to the ground floor of the Intercontinental Hotel to walk over
• 43:39
  to the Trudeau funeral.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: So he was- Jimmy Carter was there.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, he was.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: Honorary Paul Bear as well.
• 43:49
  Nearing the end here,
• 43:50
  Jason,
• 43:51
  I wanted to call this section Advice to America.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: You spent a lot of time on issues of immigration, immigration,
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: assimilation, multiculturalism, and so on.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of time.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: You were the minister responsible for such things, I believe.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Any advice for America?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a restrictionist, Jason.
• 44:16
  Anyone who's not for open borders in America is a
• 44:18
  restrictionist in some fashion.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe in lawful, orderly immigration.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: I hate the current hostility to immigration.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just illegal immigration, by the way.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's to immigration at large.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yet I have all the concerns that restrictionists do.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time,
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: today's Ronald Reagan's birthday,
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: by the way,
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: and his openness to immigrants and refugees was,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: ought to be fundamentally American.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:53
  His public rhetoric on this was truly inspiring,
• 44:58
  and I agree with everything you just said.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was the longest-serving Canadian immigration minister at a time when,
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: perhaps this is boastful,
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: but most scholars left to right...
• 45:12
  believe that the kind of model immigration system was Stephen
• 45:16
  Harper era.
• 45:18
  Canada had developed in the late 60s a point system to invite
• 45:24
  people with high
• 45:24
  levels of human capital who historically have demonstrated
• 45:29
  great success in
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: integrating.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: We've avoided here the kinds of...
• 45:34
  Ethnic enclaves and immigrant underclass that have bedeviled
• 45:40
  Europe now for decades
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: and has led to the xenophobic backlash there.
• 45:45
  We also,
• 45:46
  partly through happy accident of geography,
• 45:48
  have been able to avoid large-scale unions.
• 45:51
  or irregular migration like you experienced under Biden and
• 45:54
  Europe continues to.
• 45:55
  And I believe that kind of large-scale illegal migration is the
• 46:02
  fuel for the fire
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: of xenophobic anti-immigrant sentiment.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I agree with you.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: You need, if you want to have
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: Jason, let me interject one thing.
• 46:10
  You reminded me of George Washington referred to our,
• 46:13
  quote,
• 46:14
  blessed location.
• 46:15
  It really hadn't occurred to me that you have,
• 46:17
  in a sense,
• 46:17
  a blessed location as well.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Three oceans, and until recently, a very friendly and secure neighbor.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've benefited from that.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Not to say we haven't had challenges.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: When I was immigration minister,
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: we started to get entire shiploads full of illegal migrants,
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: ethnic Sri Lankan Tamils who are working with...
• 46:43
  triads and criminal gangs to people with like by the hundreds
• 46:49
  on ships to our west
• 46:51
  coast from southeast asia so i we had to crack down on things
• 46:54
  like that and we
• 46:55
  still have sometimes fairly large scale illegal border
• 46:59
  crossings from the united
• 46:59
  states failed asylum claimants and others who who think they're
• 47:02
  going to get a
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: better shot in canada so these are not
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: We are not without these challenges,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: but the broader point is,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: if you look across the Western world,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's mega-style xenophobia,
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: the rise of UK reform,
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: the leading party in the UK...
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: is UK reform primarily because of immigration.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: The leading party in France, formerly the Front National.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: You were right to say the front first.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, same difference.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: The AFD in Germany.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: And now the One Nation,
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: which is their analog in Australia,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: from out of nowhere has launched ahead of the Aussie Liberal Party
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: in the polls.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you see this happen wherever there is large,
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: sustained,
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: large-scale illegal migration,
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: which often involves people who are,
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: where there's a failure of integration.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to take these things seriously.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I say to my friends on the left,
• 48:02
  If you're not prepared to be somewhat hard-headed about a
• 48:05
  rules-based system
• 48:07
  focused on successful integration outcomes and respect for the
• 48:10
  rule of law,
• 48:12
  then you are inviting the kind of xenophobic backlash that we
• 48:15
  are increasingly
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: seeing across the democratic world.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: And there are parties of the left who get this,
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: like the Social Democratic Party of Denmark,
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: has been very hard-headed about this.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Increasingly,
• 48:25
  the Scandinavian social democratic governments are seeing the
• 48:30
  undeniable failures
• 48:31
  of integration in some of their communities and are now really
• 48:36
  tightening things.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way,
• 48:38
  even the bien-pensant of the neoliberal economist magazine last
• 48:43
  year said it's time
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: to rewrite the 1948 Refugee Convention,
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: which was originally designed for...
• 48:54
  discrete protection of people fleeing with a well-founded fear
• 48:59
  of persecution that
• 49:00
  wasn't meant to justify huge waves of illegal de facto economic
• 49:05
  migration.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: So these are, look, I think it's possible.
• 49:08
  And then the policy that I've implemented and have always
• 49:11
  supported is a discrete
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: rules-based system,
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: but still to be welcoming countries by
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Tony Blair put it well, host countries have a duty to be welcoming.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Newcomers have a duty to integrate.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that duty to integrate implies a duty to follow the law,
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: which means waiting patiently in the queue to be selected.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: We used to do that very well in Canada.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Justin Trudeau kind of massively disrupted that system.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully we'll get back to it.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Word of advice to America on healthcare.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: I have a memory, Jason, I'm going to have to paraphrase.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, uh,
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: I talked with Conrad Black, who was quite a free marketeer.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we were talking about health care.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: And he was very defensive of the Canadian system.
• 49:58
  He said,
• 49:58
  you know,
• 49:59
  he said,
• 50:00
  you're a rich nation,
• 50:01
  meaning you're a rich nation.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: You should be able to take care of people's health care, really.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was a little surprised to hear him say that.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: I thought he might propose more free market-oriented solutions.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I listened to him carefully.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't dismiss it at all.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:16
  I've heard positive things about the Canadian system from
• 50:19
  Canadians and a few
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: negative things concerning waiting times and so forth,
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: big surgeries and the like.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I used to say,
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: we'll have to check the facts on this,
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: but you know,
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: one of my- Big surgery wait times,
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: yeah.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think you meant big surgery wait times, yes.
• 50:33
  I think the governor of Newfoundland perhaps had some surgery
• 50:37
  in Florida and I made
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: hay out of this,
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: maybe wrongly,
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: maybe demagogically,
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: but I did.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: But-
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: but we got hearing great.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: What would you advise?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're on point.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: Look,
• 50:53
  the Canadian system has the admirable advantage of universal
• 50:57
  insurance for basic
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: medical treatment.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: So nobody has to pay out of pocket.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think, but Canadians often exaggerate the weakness of the
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: Medicaid and the free access in county hospitals and so forth.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I don't think the American system is a model.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: We've got huge flaws there.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way,
• 51:21
  you spend more than any other country on the world as a share
• 51:23
  of GDP on healthcare
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: for suboptimal outcomes.
• 51:29
  But the Canadian system is not a model either because we are at
• 51:33
  the top end of
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: health expenditures amongst universal publicly insured systems where
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: But we're at the bottom quartile in terms of surgical wait times,
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: access to family physicians,
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: access to diagnostics,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
• 51:52
  So I think the systems that make the most sense tend to be the
• 51:56
  Western European
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: systems or the Aussie system,
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: which do have the feature,
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: the Canadian feature of universal insurance,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: so nobody has to pay out of pocket,
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: but do allow for various kinds of blended delivery and insurance.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: where whether it's in Britain or Sweden,
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: all of the Western European countries,
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: all of the social democratic countries allow for parallel systems,
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: which are a pressure release valve for the state system.
• 52:25
  In Canada,
• 52:25
  there is no option to buy care for the kinds of things that are
• 52:31
  publicly insured.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: It means that our elites,
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: the wealthy and the desperate,
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: buy that private care in the United States or elsewhere.
• 52:42
  So we have Canadian surgeons and physicians end up going down
• 52:45
  to the United States
• 52:46
  to moonlight to make more money because they're constricted in
• 52:49
  access to operating
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: rooms,
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: And many Canadian patients do this, follow with their dollars.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: So for somebody like Lord Black,
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: who is a friend,
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: to say that,
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 53:00
  people in his social class in Canada simply get on a plane and
• 53:03
  go and avail
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: themselves of the Mayo or the private U.S.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: care.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we need to take a hard,
• 53:12
  long look at the blended systems of the Western European social
• 53:16
  democracies,
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: which seem to have the guarantee of universal coverage,
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: but the flexibility of some provision of private care.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's end on this.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you again so much for being my guest.
• 53:30
  I remember Harper said we were talking on this show and I'm
• 53:35
  going to I think he said something.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about a parliamentary system versus a presidential system.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you two grew up in a parliamentary system.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd like to see you PM, by the way, Jason Kenney.
• 53:47
  And Harper said something like,
• 53:50
  you know,
• 53:50
  I wouldn't have made it in a presidential system.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't put on a show.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: He does put on a pretty good show, I think, and he's a rocker, right?
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: Did he perform with Sting, or what was that?
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: He plays a few chords on the piano,
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: and he has a particular affinity for the Beatles,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: but there's no accounting for bad taste.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: anyway,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: he said,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: basically,
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: I needed a parliamentary system,
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: given my,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm paraphrasing him,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: given my nature and the way I do politics and so on.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: What do you feel about your system versus ours?
• 54:26
  Could you have had the kind of career you've had in our
• 54:30
  country,
• 54:30
  do you think?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Congress, U.S.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: House, U.S.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: Senate, more governor?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 54:38
  Stephen's probably right about his own self-assessment because
• 54:40
  he's not a big
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: personality.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I think when we see what's happened with Trump...
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: I will just say this.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm great.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: Your gray central banker looks pretty good, by the way.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that kind of...
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that Huey Long,
• 55:08
  Donald Trump personalities are really possible in a
• 55:11
  parliamentary system because...
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is a system where the parties are much stronger.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, we don't have a formal impeachment process.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: But as was the case with Justin Trudeau,
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: When a leader becomes hugely unpopular with the general public,
• 55:36
  they can walk into their caucus one day and just find that they
• 55:39
  don't have any more
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: support and they simply have to go.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: the parliamentary system,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: majority leaders have huge power,
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: actually,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: but ultimately there are stronger mechanisms of accountability because...
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: they can be removed on a day's notice by their own caucus.
• 55:58
  So I think that's probably a pretty good balance when it comes
• 56:01
  to the need for
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: democratic accountability.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: ladies and gentlemen,
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: I am Jay Nordlinger doing Q&A,
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: and we have been speaking with Jason Kenney.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: And David Frum told me a long time ago,
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: years ago,
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: you want to meet a conservative intellectual who does politics?
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to Jason Kenney.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: David's too kind.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it has been a pleasure.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I thank you so much and strength to your hands.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much, Jay.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: Till next time, everyone.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: So long.