Latest / Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast / Darling, Bish Hour: The Lindsay Clancy Case-Focus on postpartum psychosis (TW)

Transcript

Darling, Bish Hour: The Lindsay Clancy Case-Focus on postpartum psychosis (TW) · Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Drama, Darling Drama, Darling Drama, Darling. Hi, friends, and welcome
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: to an episode of Darling Bishish Hour. We're here, We're here,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: and yes, that beautiful voice you hear is miss Amy Phillips,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: the incannable, the beauty amazing and of.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Course Melissa ug your bish therapist at your service, literally.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, reporting for duty. For those of you listening,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: we are going to be covering the Lindsay Clancy trial
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: and I feel an immense amount of pressure to do
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: this right and to do it justice, to not fail her,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and to give really good information. So I just want
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: to share at the top of the episode a couple
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: of things. Is that Number one one, there is going
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: to be a trigger warning throughout this entire episode if
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: you do not know what the Lindsay Clancy trial is.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Amy is going to provide some facts and information about that.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: I am going to speak to the clinical diagnoses of
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: postpartum psychosis, what is that, how does it develop? And
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: we are going to stay away from the gory details. However,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: there will be talk of suicide, infanticide, and we do
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: have to mention a couple of pieces of things. Yes,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: that will be very triggering. And so this whole episode
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: right at the top just going to let people know
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: that I respect if you love both of us and
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: this is not for you. We respect that you got
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: to protect your mental.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Health, protect yourself because it's tough. And you know, both
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: of us really came together on this because we believe
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: in women's mental health, we believe in supporting women, and
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: we feel that there's a deficit in this area that
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: is beyond measurement and we believe that this case represents
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: that because it's the worst possible scenario. So with that said,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: I've had my own experience with having a baby and
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: experiencing postpartum anxiety with intrusive thoughts, and I would like
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: to share a little bit about that. And Melissa has
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: a lot of information and has a lot of really
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: great things to point out because it should be educational,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: we should be learning more about this, and so basically
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: this is kind of what that is. It's like, we
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: want to lay the foundation Melissa is going through about
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: postpartum psychosis, and specifically we will get into a little
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: bit about Lindsey Clancy's experience and allegedly what her story
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: is and so on and so forth. So with that said,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: is that a good enough intro? Melissa, I think.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: That's a great intro. And I'm at Actually, here's the thing,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: do not give yourselfself short trift, Amy, because your experience
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: with us when you told me about it, I was
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: really I was really touched, and I was you know,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: we were able to have some conversations and I was
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: able to share some things that you weren't aware of.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: And so I think that your experience here is truly invaluable.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Because the thing is what I want to let the
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: audience know is that I did my homework here. I
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: looked up what the top experts are saying, I did
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: my research, I looked in the DSM, I did all
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: the things. Because I do not want to be speaking
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: about this carelessly or without the knowledge. But I will
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: say that this requires expertise. Postpartum psychosis requires you know,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: there is not a lot of knowledge about it, especially
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: in the mental health field for example. And so I
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: think that for us, to your point, we're going to
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: be talking about what are some of the gaps that
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: we're seeing on a macro level, what are some of
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: the gaps we're seeing at a micro level. How did
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: this happen, and what do women need to be aware,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: to be informed to protect themselves and their families. And
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: that's really I think what we're going to talk about today,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: which includes a lot of resources too, right, because when
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: we're talking about something really serious, we want to make
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: sure we give everyone the resources that they need. So, Amy,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: do you want to start out sharing a little bit
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: of your story and then we can go from there.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. So when I had my beautiful baby daughter, I
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: had a good I had a great pregnancy other than
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: the hypermessis cravidarum, which is extreme you know, morning sickness.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: It's like the next level of that. But other than that,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: it was great.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: And by the way, that is very serious, Amy's don't
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: it is this. It is not just severe morning sickness.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: It's like you cannot stop throwing up. No, it is.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to have like a lot of interventional
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: medical at times. Right, And mind did stop, like it
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: actually stopped around six months, which thank god it did
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: up because it doesn't stop for everybody. So anyway, I
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: had an emergency C section and after labor and delivery,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: I went home and everything was seemingly normal. I didn't
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: experience anything out of the ordinary until I would say
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: four weeks in, maybe three and a half to four
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: weeks in because my mom stayed with us for two weeks,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: so it wasn't when she was there. And so I'm
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: just trying to do the math in my head because
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: it's been a really long time since I've even thought
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: about this and really like thought about when and how
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: long this lasted. But what ended up happening was I
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: didn't feel depressed. I felt anxiety about something happening to
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: my baby, which I think a lot of mothers do.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Whether you even have a postpartum anxiety situation, I think
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: you just feel like scared. Like so when I would
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: go out out and take her for a walk, like
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: every day, and I lived in like a very very
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: busy area of Los Angeles, like little city area, So
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: when I would, I'd have to walk across a street
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: in order to get to a more neighborly area that
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: had more that was more calm down where there weren't
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: a lot of cars. So there was a one street
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: that I had to walk across at the light, and
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: every time I would like literally be having such a
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: panic attack that a car would I just visualize a
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: car coming up and hitting us every time, and I
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: would just run across the street as fast as I can.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: I'd probably look like a crazy person. And then I'd
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: get over there and my heart would be beating so
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: fast and I'd be just really terrified. Okay, so that
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: was just like a little thing, Okay, not that big
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: of a deal. And I didn't even think about that,
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: to be honest with you. The thing that ended up
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: happening to me was I was putting the dishes away
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: and when I picked up a knife, I like felt
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: my hand felt tingly. I threw it in the drawer
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: and I was like, oh my god, Like, what is
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: what was that? Why am I feeling scared about having
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: a knife in my hand? Why do I feel completely
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: weird in my body? And oh my god, my baby's
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: right there? What if? What if I did something with
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: this knife? What would happen if this knife flew out
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: of my hand? What if I can't be trustworthy as
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: a mother? What if? Why did I feel this way?
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: What did I You know? This was a feeling I
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: had never experienced in my life, and it was weird
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: because it wasn't like that, It wasn't black or white either.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: So I just like would quickly put the dishes away
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: and like walk away. So that was it. But every
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: time I would put the dishes away, that would happen.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Whenever I would touch the utensils of the knives, every
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: single time, that would happen. And then there were other
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: times when I would feel like I was making the
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: bed and I had like a pillow in my hand,
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: and I'm sure you understand where I'm going with this.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: I got to move this pillo out of my hand.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: I can't be trusted, what if you know? And that
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: those were the two things. So at that time I
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: didn't have like a therapist in my realm because I
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: like hadn't found one in LA and I'd been here
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: for a long time. But I had one from a
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: really long time ago when I lived in Detroit in Chicago.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: So I called her up and I was like, you know,
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: I had a baby and I'd love to talk to
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: you about it. I didn't say it was an emergency.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: I just said I'd love to reconnect because I didn't
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: know how to. I was. I was scared to say
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: what I wanted to say, right.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: I imagine you were scared because of stigma, right, which this
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: is very important to what we're talking about today. Women
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: get scared that they have those thoughts and then they
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: feel that they're going to be judged or people are
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: going to be scared or overreact. Course, so you keep
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: it to yourself. And then the second thing is how
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: do you even have the words to describe something you're
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: experiencing that you don't know.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: What it is? Right?
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Right, when you and I talked about it and I said,
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: this is what that is, you said, oh my god,
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: oh my ever even knew. But until you talked to
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: a professional, when you contacted her, you didn't know that
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: this could be an emergency. You know, you didn't even
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: know how to explain it. And so I just want
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: to give you and all the other moms out their
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: credit that it's hard to describe something that you're not
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: sure what is, and that stigma really really can make
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: us scared to talk, which is the opposite of what
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: we need to do. We need to talk to a
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: trusted person, not someone who has a bad track record
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: who were not sure if they can't help us. We
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: need to say who is this person I trust and
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: absolutely go to them. So when you emailed the therapist.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Did she get back to you.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Yep. We had a conversation, and I didn't tell her.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: The first time we talked, I chickened.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Out, which that totally happens that so yeah.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: And I didn't tell Brett, and I didn't tell anybody
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: because I was afraid that maybe my child would be
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: taken away. Of course, and I've never heard of this.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: I didn't even want to google it because I was
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: scared of a Google record or what I would find.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: I didn't know, and I've never heard like, I've never
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: been taught about postpartum anything other than the word postpartum depression.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: You're depressed, You're sad, you can't stop crying. I didn't
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: have that. I was like elated, I was stressed out.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: I was like, there were all plenty of other things,
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: but like it was not I wasn't like I can't
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: get out of bed. It was nothing like that. That's
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: why this was so scary. So I called her back
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: again and I said, I do need to talk to you.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: I need to talk more to you. So I got
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: back on with her pretty quickly after that, and I said,
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: I wasn't honest with you, and this is what's going on.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: And she said, Okay, don't worry. I'm not going to
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: call CPS. Don't worry. This is postpartum. This is postpartum.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: This is postpartum. This is what you're having. And she
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: called it postpartum anxiety. She didn't use the word intrusive
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: thought because and so you're the one who said that
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, I did, because that's what you were having.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes so much sense.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: So I want to explain a little bit that one
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: important factor here is that not everyone who has a
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: baby experiences postpartum mental health issues per se. Right, having
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: a baby and being postpartums. So the term postpartum is
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: the period after childbirth, and now we call the fourth trimester,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: which is considered the fourteen week period following giving birth.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: And the fourth trimester is when women need the most
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: amount of help and receive the least amount of care.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: So while not everybody has postpart of mental health issues
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: per se, what naturally happens is some level of anxiety.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: You know, you grow a human, you make a human,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: you become a new human between the hormones and the
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: body shifts and literally everything changes.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: That is such a great point. I love when you
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: said that when you make it and you become a
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: new human, and it's true, you change emotionally, like you said, hormonally.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: You don't realize the intense how much hormones affect who
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: you become and who you may not recognize anymore. And
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: I think that's what's so dangerous about it.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, and then you add into that lack of sleep,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: which lack of sleep will lead anybody to struggle period.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: But then if you have these pieces of anxiety or
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: intrusive thoughts, and then it's lack of sleep and depending
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: on your level of support. This is why every woman's
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: situation is unique. Every situation is nuanced, but they all
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: require care and attention. And so what I shared with
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: you is that there's postpartum anxiety, there's postpartum depression, there's
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: postpartum psychosis, which is much much more rare. Postpartum depression
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: happens to one in eight women, whereas postpartum psychosis only
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: happens in one to two of every thousand births. Okay,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: so it gives you an idea of while postpartum depression
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: and anxiety is common, not all women experience it. Number
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: one and number two the intrusive thoughts, So I'm gonna
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: use Amy's what you vulnerably shared as an example. By
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: the way, an intrusive thought is an unwanted, distressing and
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: repeated image, urge or idea that sticks in the mind
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: and triggers intense fear or anxiety. And what happens is
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: those can lead to repetitive coping actions that are called compulsions.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: So it seems like you did not get to this level.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: But for example, the common theme of some of these
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: intrusive thoughts is harm and violence, which is unwanted urges
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: or mental image about hurting yourself or other people. Taboo
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: topics like forbidden or blasphemous or sexual thoughts that go
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: against your personal values, contamination which is germs and stuff,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: and then the responsibility and doubt, which is like forgot
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: to lock the door, did I turn off the stove?
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: That sort of thing. But what happens uniquely for women
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: after they have children is all of a sudden, you're
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: responsible for keeping this little thing alive. There's no manual
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: on how to do it. It's you and the people
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: you have around you. And so it also makes sense
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: to me that when your mom was there. It didn't
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: happen because you had that really trusted support. Oh it
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: was when she left that you started to have that issue. Wow.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. I didn't even put that together because
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: you probably felt so much safer with her there. Wow.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: And then when you're gone, you're like, oh, this is
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: just me right, And what if I accidentally fling this
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: knife and it go or what if I accidentally put
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: this pillow? And so we all I'm not going to
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: complete the thoughts because we know where that's going and
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: I just want to be really mindful. But the key
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: thing with these intrusive thoughts is that they are ego
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: dystonic meaning that's a fancy word. You'll see it all
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: over the internet. Egodostonic means it's the opposite of what
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: you want. So you cared about baby daughter so much
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: that you it's okay, take a minute.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: That's very helpful. Thank you for saying that.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you loved her so much that it was actually
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: the opposite of what you wanted to happen. You were
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: so focused on keeping her safe. Wow, you had those
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: opposite thoughts, and that I hope all the other mothers
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: listening to this are like, damn I hope this helps
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: because with postpartum psychosis or postpartum issues, women don't women
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: do not want to hurt yourself or your child, and
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: it's so it's so scary that it can lead your
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: brain to do some of these things.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. It's crazy. By the way, I do want
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: to mention that, you know, I don't really really remember
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: my former therapist said. I think it was something like
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: if it gets worse, call your primary doctor or go
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: to the hospital, or I think it was, you know,
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: not necessarily even call her, like go get actual help
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: with the doctor or something, which I never did because
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: it went away. And I think it went away when
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: I stopped breastfeeding.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Oh isn't that interesting because that had right, whether you
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: breastfeed or you don't, that has unique changes to your
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: body and your brain and things like that. So that's
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: very interesting. But also let me ask you a question.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: When you talked about it, did it lessen or did
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: it continue that way?
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: It had to have lessened, because after I talked to her,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: I did not see an uptick in my feelings or
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: my thoughts, and then they just dissipated, right.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Because usually what will happen anxiety thrives when you're holding
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: in secrets thrives.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: Oh my could wow.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: So just by telling our truths to someone, an empathetic
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: witness who's trusted individual, that alone could assuage some of
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: the anxiety. Now, for some, that's you need more than that.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: For some there's medication, there's consistent therapy, there's different things
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: that some might need.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: I do think that it would have been helpful for
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: me to go on medication at that time, because I
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: ended up going on medication later in life, and I
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: wish I had had it sooner. And I know you're
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: going to get to this later, but I want to
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: point out that perhaps, and maybe you can address this.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: Is it because I have because I had underlying mental
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: health in terms of anxiety, underlying that that that's why
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: I had intrusive thoughts, Why I had postpartum anxiety. Is
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: that because I already had a baseline there which was
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: never dealt with.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, that absolutely could be because one of the things
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: with developing post partum anxiety, depression, or mental health issues
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: is if you have a pre existing mental health condition
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: and that is not being properly treated, having a child
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: can increase that significantly. For example, people with bipolar disorder
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: if they are undiagnosed prior to giving birth. The research
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: shows that fifty percent of women are actually diagnosed in
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: the postpartum period because of the uptick of hormones and
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: shifts and sleep schedules and changes, it can lead to
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: bringing those things to the surface. If that makes sense.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: It does, and that is what is happening in the
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Lindsey Clancy trial and what the defense is trying to prove.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: And before I move on to that, I just want
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: to thank you for sharing, and I want to say
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: that you're amazing. You're an amazing mom, and I'm so
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: grateful that you're talking about this. I guarantee you're going
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: to get a host of amazing messages from women because
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: you're amazing and your experience was hard and you got
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: through it, and I'm just really proud of you.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Thanks for thank you for letting me share this. Thank
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: you for like not judging me, and for literally after
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: all these years, telling me something I did not know
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: and what a relief it is. Should just talk about
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: it today. So yeah, you know this is I feel
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: so horrible about the Lindsay Clancy trial that's going on,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: and for the children that we're lost here and the
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: families that are suffering. And I keep thinking to myself,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: this is I am seeing women and people across all
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: you know, races, ethnicities, political affiliations come forward and support
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: the education and the awareness about postpartum psychosis. And for
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: that I can't be upset about. And I hate that
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: we're here in this state like this meaning, in this situation,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: but I'm very grateful that this is now getting such
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: national and really worldly attention, international attention because of this.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: And on that note, in other countries, they have very
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: different laws about oh, things of this nature, and it's
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: very sad what we don't have here in the United States.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let me tell you. Nearly every developed country guarantees
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: a postpartum home visit within the first week plus fourteen
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: weeks of paid maternity leave. The US guarantees neither. Neither. Okay,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: there is so much happening in this country. I hear
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: people talking about the system failed. Lindsay, well, there is
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: no system. Women give birth, they have a baby, they
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: get sent home, they don't get checked in on if
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: they don't have a therapist, They're just home to think about, Well,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: what are these thoughts. I don't know if they're I
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: don't know if this is okay. Everything you just said
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: that is a very typical story.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: And don't tell me to go to urgent care, right.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: And it's like it's like, what are they going to
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: do in urgent care? What are they going to do?
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: The er?
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: And he's a dental health emergency And even if you
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: did go, they still will fail you sometimes oh one
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: thousand percent, which is again, what's happening here?
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Right? And so one thing I want to say is that,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: unfortunately the system that we're experiencing, there's a trickle down
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: effect from the lack of support that women receive. Like
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: I said, the fourth trimuster, they have the most needs
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: and experience the least amount of care. It's like once
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: the baby's born, it's like go goodbye. You know, everyone
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: wants to do everything before the baby's here, and then
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: after the baby's here, it's like we'll forget it. But
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: the one thing that I was saying to you prior
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: to filming is that to me, the major problem as
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: well is postpartum psychosis is not officially in the DSM, right,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: So the current DSM is the diagnostic and Statistics Manual,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: it's the fifth version and it's TR text revision, so
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: it's DSM five TR and in the DSM, even though
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: postpartum psycho is a known issue and it is an
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: absolute medical emergency that requires immediate inpatient hospitalization for this
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: exact reason, it's not known about and there's no research
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: on it because it's not in the DSM.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: So what I do want to clarify is that even
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: though it does not recognize it as a distinct diagnosis
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: or stand alone, it can go under major depressive episode
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: with perry partum onset or under brief psychotic disorder. But
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: my point here is that how on earth can we
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: have a framework to treat this when it's not in
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: the most important manual for psychiatry and psychology.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: It doesn't even have insane bullet point. I mean, come on,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: that's ridiculous.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: And here's the thing. The information is out there, you know,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: for you to look at. But what happens is when
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: you go to a doctor that sees two hundred people
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: or doesn't have time to research, do the work, or
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: coordinate care with other folks. That's another gap in terms
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: of how this happened. So do you want me to
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: start out talking a little bit about postpartum psychosis.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Specifically specifically and what those signs are, what the symptoms
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: can be.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, So it is, as I mentioned, an absolute medical emergency.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: It is literally, like I'm going to compare this to
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: having a brain bleed, if you have a brain or
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: heart attack or a heart attack or a stroke, right,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: anything like that, anything like that, It is the same thing.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: The problem with mental health is that it's not as
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: tangible as like I have cancer for example. Right, This
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: is as much of a crisis as cancer or anything else.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: But you can't touch it, you can't feel it. It's
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: hard to see, like you know, when you're sick. You
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: can have a droopy face, if you have a stroke,
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: something like that. These mental health issues, that's why they're
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: easy to miss if you're not in front of people
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: who are capable or competent. So I just want to
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: be clear about that. The thing with postpartum psychosis is
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: it has a sudden, rapid onset within two days to
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: two weeks of giving birth. However, the scary thing is
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: it can also occur up to a year postpartum. However,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: the good news, and this is what I want to say.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: The good news is with prompt treatment and proper support,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: symptoms will remit and women will fully recover. That is
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: why this trial is so sad, because it didn't need
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: to get to this point. But I'm hoping that because
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: of this our policies and procedures, and I do hope
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: that this changes. This not being in the DSIM, I
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: hope that the powers it be they look at this
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: case and they say, we need to address this. Great
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: those things are all possible.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: And yeah, if you have anything to do with it,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: the will and you will. And on that note that
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: things will change legally in our legal system because for example,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: in other countries they do have you know, if there
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: is infanticide, if it's with one, if it's within one
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: year of the birth, your sentence will then be not
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: first degree murder and you go to prison, it will
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: be under a different category and then you go into
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: a mental health facility. Whereas fear that's not the case,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: And that is not the case with the Lindsay Clancy
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: trial because the prosecution is not trying to accuse her
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: of something that they know that she was insane for
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: in that moment. They're trying to put her behind bars,
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: saying that she premeditatively did this and that she planned it.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: So that is where we're at right now, and so
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to say that I hope that the
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: legalities will change around that too, because they've wasted a
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: lot of time, however, and I want to say, just
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: yesterday morning, on day six of the trial, something very
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: important happened. Before the trial really began and the jury
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: came in. Lindsey Clancy gave up stipulation. They tell like
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: a stipulation trial where she agreed to give up any
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: rights about the DNA blood you're in, any facts about
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: what happened and how the crimes happened. She is not
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: disputing those, so that they don't have to waste any
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: time going through fifteen more people talking about how we
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: got here. So now they can move into the mental
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: aspect of why it is so right.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: No one's disputing that she did this, No one's disputing
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: that this happened. But what we are looking at is
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: she was in a mental health crisis that led her
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: to do something while she was in a psychotic episode.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: And I've worked here's the thing I've worked with. I've
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: worked with people who are in psychotic episodes. I've worked
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: with people who are suicidal, and what I can tell
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: you about that is that if you've never seen someone
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: in a psychotic episode, it is jarring. It is jarring
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: to watch that this person is so far away from
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: our shared reality. It is scary, and it is sad,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: and it's a lot of things. But what it isn't
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: is a cold calculated murder. You know, I understand that
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: this comes with a lot of anger and vitriol, but
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I think that unfortunately, women, especially this prosecutor, women are
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: so happy to just be so hard on women about
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: things like I guess what I'm saying here is that
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Lindsay Clancy, it doesn't matter what happens, what the verdict is,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: because this will torture her for the rest of her life.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: She's going to be living a life sentence of greed.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: And she still suicidal to this day.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Sure, sure, because how could you not be right?
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: Rightactly?
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: I think that for me, is what differentiates people who
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: are cold calculated murderers from an otherwise good person who
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: was sick and experiencing a mental health emergency. To me,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: that's the difference. She's not trying to say, let's do
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: all this DNA checking or I didn't do it's not that.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: And when you ask her how she feels, she says horrified.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: She's horrified and still is struggling with that suicidal ideation.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: So the symptoms that I want to note because for
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: everyone listening to this that also just heard Amy share,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: I cannot emphasize enough. If you are scared, you have
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: to tell a trusted person, because that is the only
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: way that we have good outcomes, not just for the baby,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: for the mom. It's like, y'all deserve so much better
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: than you get. You really do. So one of the
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: major symptoms, especially in this case, is called command hallucinations.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: And what a command hallucination is. It's hearing a voice
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: instructing them to do something immediately. And there's different types
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: of hallucinations. So there's auditory where you hear things as
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: she did, she heard commands to hurt her children and herself.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: You can also have visual hallucinations, so you see things
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: that aren't there, ol factories, smelling things that are not real,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: TecTile feeling things on your skin, like bugs crawling under
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: your skin, things like that that that's not real. And
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: it's called gustatory, which is a perceiving a strange taste
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: in the mouth.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: So I think that helps people to understand that, like
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: these delusions feel so real, hallucinations and delusions that becomes
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: your reality.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, I was watching a testimony about a woman who
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: experienced postparum psychosis. She came out and posted her story
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: on Facebook about a week ago after the Lindsay Clancy
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: trial began, because she felt moved to do so and
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: try to normalize this, and she experienced that. She did
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: get the help that she needed and she was able
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: to level out fine, and she's doing great. She explained
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: exactly what you just said. She was seeing figures walking by.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: She thought it was her husband. Yep, she was seeing
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: these shadows coming by. She finally accepted that as their
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: everyday life. She then she started hearing the auditory hallucinations
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: like you said, and she said it was like not
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: like a voice in your head. It was as if
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: you're hearing the vibration of a voice come in. And
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: that floored me because you think about someone hearing voices
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, it's in your head, well, but
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: I mean it's you are actually sensing feeling like you're
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: hearing something and I just never understood it like that.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, it is so biological. And when you're watching someone
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: in that space, it is literally they're hearing it in
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: their ears, a vibration like someone else is talking to them.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: It's not like with OCD, for example, with intrusive thoughts
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: and OCD. People with OCD can understand the shared reality
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: and know that those intrusive thoughts are in their brain
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: and that they don't want to do it. People with
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: psychosists do not have that same differentiation. They think what
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: is happening is real. The delusions, the hallucinations, they think
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: it is real, and they do not have the ability
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: to get themselves out of that space. That is why
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: this is a psychiatric emergency. So the delusions are a
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: false fixed belief that someone is trying to harm them
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: or their child. And so, for example, like when a
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: lot of new moms with postpartum psychosis, they get delusions
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: or false beliefs frequently involving their newborn, for example, that
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: they need to end their children's lives to protect them
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: from Satan as an example of that. Yes, yes, like Andrew,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: it's that's a great example. Then the other major red flag,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: there's a couple of significant ones, but command hallucinations, delusions,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: and then the other major red flag is confusion about
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: what is real. This is a huge, huge, huge red flag,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: and this is one of the things that in her
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: journals she said that she's like, I don't know, I'm confused.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know what's real and what's not. When you're
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: trying to see if someone is oriented to our shared reality, clinically,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: you look for are they oriented to person, place, and time. Now,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: what that means is do they know who they are?
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Do they know where they are? And do they know
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: the proper time of day, year, who the president is?
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Things like that. Right, people in these psychotic episodes are
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: unable to be oriented, which is again why it is
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: a medical emergency. There's no like talking to someone that's
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: going to change this fixed delusion. There's no talking to
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: someone that's going to get the sollucination away they need
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: inpatient medical treatment, and that is that is primarily why
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: there's also paranoia, agitation, rapidly changing mood. So it's kind
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: of almost like a bipolar disorder, like the one feature
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: postpartum psychosis that is really important is disordered mood. So
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: you may go from really high to really low. And
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: when you're having kind of this manic space, that is
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: also what leads to the sleep deprivation and the insomnia
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: because your body physiologically is creating this mania that is
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: leading you to be unable to sleep. Oh mm hmmm.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: It's keeping you awake because your thoughts are going so
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: quickly that it's it's overtaking your ability to I guess
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: I don't understand, like why it would keep you up
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: because you can't rest. Your brain isn't resting, what is it?
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, So a manic episode for someone who has bipolar
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: disorder is their body is physiologically unable to like all
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: the things that those you know, the things in your
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: brain that tell you that it's time to sleep. The
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: circadian rid that completely completely taken over by this disorder. Wow,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: completely taken over.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, And that's the other thing. It's like, okay, so
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: you're having insomnia, but you just had a child, you know.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: So this is a symptom that it's hard to assess
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: or it gets missed because it's like who's sleeping with
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: a newborn?
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, you'd mentioned the diary. She was literally journaling
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: about her experience not feeling like herself, the guilt that
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: she had about her newborn, about sleep training, on how
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: she doesn't have She was documenting everything she wasn't herself.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: She wants to get back to normal. And if you're
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: not following this, she was a labor and delivery nurse
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: for a very long well she's studied and I think
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: she was a nurse at this one hospital for like
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: three years. I don't know how long she was actually
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: officially a nurse, but if it gives anybody any idea
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: about how much she loved her job, which has become
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: very clear. She named her firstborn child after the baby
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: that she helped deliver, like.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: She God, that breaks my heart.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: She really the way that you know, when you paint
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: the picture about who she is, it's not at all
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: who we see her as she was committing these horrific crimes.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Right, which is another signal that this was mental health
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: driven and not who she was as a person. You
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: don't go from being a labor and delivery nurse who
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: names your first child after you know this experience that
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: you had. Journals everything keeps track of things and then
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: goes and does this, darlings.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: I have a nine year old daughter, baby daughter, you know,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: and I swear one of my full time jobs is
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: teaching her about money. Suddenly she's asking can I buy this?
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Can you put this in the cart? And how much
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: does that cost? Well, I'm realizing these little conversations are
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: actually a really big deal, and I want her to
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: understand the value of saving, making smart choices, and that
• 35:58
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• 36:02
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  Speaker 2: app Slash Legal Slash podcast for full disclosures. And now, Melissa,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: you said that it can can it come and go?
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: Because one of the things about this is that which
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: the scariest part is that they keep saying she was
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: fine that day, she took the kids to a doctor appointment,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: She built a snowman, she called CVS to make sure
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: that they had the prescription, and then it happened.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: The scariest thing about this all is it can come
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: and go. You can be And that was the one
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: thing that I was bowled over when I was researching
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: of this is that you can have a couple of
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: hours where you're kind of your regular self, attached to
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: a shared reality, and then literally without warning, that's gone.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: That is completely gone, and you can come in and
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: out and in and out.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: That is so weird, Like how I mean, I guess
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: and I was saying, how it's just you know, I'm hey,
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, why everything is so complex? But when
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: it's this extreme, it is really hard to swallow. And
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: that's why I understand why people are like letter rotten prison,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: and you know, because people aren't going to take the
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: time to understand what we're doing here if you're not
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: obsessed with mental health and you're just busy in your
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: own life and you just don't understand it. But like,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: that's what's so hard about it is that all of
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: a sudden this happened. And yet it didn't just happen
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: because she had been talking about this from September of
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. Yes, and this happened on January twenty third.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: And I have some thoughts about that because when I
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: was doing some research, I was looking at her med
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: list and I came across something actually really important, but
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: The first thing that I want to say is the
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: causes and the risk factors, because in her case, this
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: is really significant and really significant for women listening to
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: this is number one, if you have a history of
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: bipolar disorder or a mood disorder, you have a one
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: in one hundred risk of developing postpartum psychosis.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Now this paired with a prior history of postpartum psychosis,
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: you jump to one in seven risk. Most cases of
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: postpartum psychosis involve an underlying bipolar or effective mood disorder,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: and research shows, as I said, fifty percent away, and
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: with bipolar disorder, they're first diagnosed in the postpartum period
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: because that's when it becomes unmanageable. And then the last
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: thing I'll say is that research shows strong genetic links,
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: so risk increases with family and personal history. So if
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: you have a family history of psychosis, bipolar disorder, mood disorders,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: you are going to be at greater risk. Why is
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: this important for Lindsey Clancy? Her treatment could have been
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: vastly changed if she was properly diagnosed prior to the incident.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was so I'm confused about whether or not
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: she did she know she was bipolar before that, then I.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Do not think so from what I understand, and I
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: could be wrong. When I was looking at her med
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: list and all the things from the trial, is that
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: now she has a diagnosis of bipolar disorder now right
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: before it was misdiagnosed, and if it had been properly
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: diagnosed and she could have been properly treated, yeah, this
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: whole situation could have been very different.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, so prevented.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: I believe prevented as well. Because so let me speak
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: to the psychopharmacology for a minute, which I know this
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: is a little bit intense, but psychopharmacology is really really
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: vital when it comes to mental health conditions, especially mental
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: health emergencies, especially bipolar disorder, psychotic disorders, things like that. Now,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: the psychopharmacology says that four postpartum psychosis, antipsychotics, mood stabilizers,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: and antidepressants are typically prescribed. However, I did a deep, deep,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: deep dive on this and I looked at the experts,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: people who have PhDs, people who work specifically with this,
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: and what they have said is that the research efficacy
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: shows one main medication to be the most impactful, and
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: it was one of the only ones she was not prescribed,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: and that is lithium.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: No kidding, yeah, no, something. And there were thirteen medications
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: that she was prescribed.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Yes. And I'm going to talk about that for a minute,
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: because here's the problem with mental health medications is it's
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: a science, but it's trial and error for the most part. Right.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: They have these tests that you can do. I've had
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: one done myself because I've been on lexipur for a
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: long time. I've managed mental health issues. They do a
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: swab of your cheek and they look at which medications
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: might work best for your metabolism.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I did that.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They were all around a mailing Oh oh mind,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: my doctored, my psychiatrist did it.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: And the one medication that's worked for me, which is lexipro,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: was on like the absolutely not one, no way. Yeah.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: And then ones that I tried that were no, did
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: not work like affectsor nearly ruined my brain, but it
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: works great for other people, and that was on the
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: yes list. So my point is that there is a
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: lot to be desired in terms of this stuff. So
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: you have to go by clinical presentation, you have to
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: go by clinical experience, you have to.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: Trial and error.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, I mean essentially. But the wildest thing is
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: that she was on thirteen medications, some of which are
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: known to worsen postpartum psychosis. And when I saw this,
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: my jaw dropped. So from September fifteenth, twenty twenty two,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: to January twenty third, twenty twenty three, she was on
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: all these different medications. I can read them if yeah,
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: I would love anyone cares about that, so I think
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: you should, Okay. So it went from and by the way,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: like four or five different providers, which disasters always happen
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: when there's not continuation of care.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: And the reason why four different providers is because she
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: kept trying to get help for herself.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Correct. But the problem is the providers didn't talk to
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: each other. So when I would have someone in my
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: clinical practice and they had suicidal ideation, I would have
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: them sign releases to talk to their physician, to talk
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: to one trusted person in the family that they would allow,
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: because you need everyone to be on the same damn
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: page about what is going on with this human being.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: A lot of folks will not do that, whether it's
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: lack of time, whether it's too big of a case,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: load whether whatever it is. If doctors talk to each other,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: which is rare this day, you know today, some of
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: this could have been avoided as well. But that's a
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: very good point. So she was on zolof which is
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: an antidepressant, adavan anti anxiety, benadryl, which is benadrille or
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, drill literally I heard that.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: Why why would it be benadryl. I don't understand why.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: Some antihistamines, like old school antihistamines like hydroxyzine and things
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: like that, they were made to be for like antihistamines,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: but because of the way they work, they can work
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: as anti anxiety agents, because of how they work in
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: your body.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Oh interesting.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Then it was atavan abuse perone, trazodone, which is for sleep,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Prozac antidepressant ambion which yikes, no one should ever. Ambien
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: is not good ramern it's an antidepressant, an a sleepa klonopin,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: anti anxiety seraqual valium, lots of valium, which is a
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: benzodiazepine and used for anxiety. There was only one note
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: of a mood stabilizer, and it was once on December sixteenth,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: a very low dose of lamictal and this is where
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: this is going to come in huge. Okay, then there
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: was Valuum, CERQual, Saraqual. Now the real problem gets too.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: From January sixteenth to January twenty third, twenty twenty three,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: she was prescribed amatryptolene, which is a tricyclic antidepressant. If
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: you give a tricyclic antidepressant without a mood stabilizer, it
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: can and will trigger mania and worsen symptoms. Using an
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: activating medication without a mood stabilizer carries significant clinical.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, whoa.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: And I believe the abrupt changes and inappropriate tapering of
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: the protective mood stabilizers drastically spiked the risk of the
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: acute psychotic relapse.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: Holy moly. Yeah wow, that makes so much sense. January
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: twenty first, Yeah, yep.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: And it says specifically antidepressant monotherapy, meaning like so she
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: kept being prescribed zoloft and prozac those should be avoided
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: without a mood stabilizer. So basically, she was prescribed a
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: lot of meds without the mood stabilizer that was necessary,
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: and that likely, according to the research that I've done,
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: could be enough to have triggered a psychotic.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: Event, which is Melissa horrifying horrify Hofy watching this trial.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: There's so much, but one thing in particular really stood
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: out to me, which was yesterday, day six, and one
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: of the psychiatrists was speaking on what she prescribed her
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: and I can't tell you what drugs it was or
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: what drugs she knew about, but she did not find
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: out what she had already been taking. She did not
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: do that, And she said on the stand why didn't
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: she do that? When the defense asked, she said, because
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: we weren't treating the symptoms that she was being treated
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: for before. That was her excuse, And I was like,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: but that defeats the purpose, right, If you're going to
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: treat another symptom, don't you have to know what you're
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: also being treated for and what you're giving.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: What's been really clear. I am on cancer therapy, immunotherapy.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: I've been for six years. Whenever I take something, I
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: have to have it checked jobble check, triple check to
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: make sure it is not counterintuitive with my other medications.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Mental health medication is the same way, and especially in
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: this scenario, which again I chalk this up to lack
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: of education, because if it's not in the DSM and
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: psychiatrists don't do the work to look into it, or
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: if they've never treated it. It is easy to look
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: at these symptoms and to prescribe based on oh, well,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: you're having trouble sleeping, so let's look at this, or
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: you're having this, let's look at this. A lot of
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: times what's not looked at is the entire picture. You
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: have to conceptualize the whole picture, and it does include
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: what meds you're on. And what also pissed me off
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: is that doctor who came and was like not prepared.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: You know, Lindsay's lawyer was like, you can't even tell
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: us what was in your note and she's like, I
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: have too many patients. I didn't look at it. And
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: it was like to me, here's why that's so significant,
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: because it's like, if you know you're having to go
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: to court and you're going to the trial of the
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: century and you can't even be prepared for this, I'm sorry,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: what kind of provider are you? Actually?
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Those were some games that she was playing, and that's
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, a life is on the line and to
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: play a fucking game like that is discuss it makes
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: me so mad.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Well, see one of the major points that the prosecution
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: is trying to prove here is that she faked a
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: suicide attempt, that that wasn't real, and they're trying to
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: prove that by getting surgeons, nurses, EMT's, everybody on the
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: stand and having them testify what they found, which is
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: that they don't consider her wounds to They considered her
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: wounds superficial. They didn't even bandage them up on the scene,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: they didn't need to treat them when she was in
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: the er, And so they are really leaning in hard
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: to this she faked her suicide because this was premeditated,
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: So she faked it and so eralized from jumping out
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: the window. Yes she is, and so how is that
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: not exactly?
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, it's ridiculous. She had a major
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: spinal injury, she was had a code blue, she had
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: to have an entire blood transfusion upon being medically flown
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: to another hospital because she was a level trauma patient.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: And yet they're hanging on to this. Her wounds were superficial,
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: that's what they keep saying.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: But it's because wound on her arms, her wrists were superficial. Yes,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: because it didn't cut through to the ligaments and the muscle.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: It only was exposing a little bit of fat. So
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: that's why they consider him that. But everything else, you know,
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: they're trying to prove otherwise, So that being absurd. That's
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: absurd to me because do you know not to be
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry not to be. Do you know how hard
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: it would be.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: To slice your I don't even know.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: There are protective factors in our bodies that make it
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: hard to do that. But the fact that she jumped
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: out a window, she is paralyzed for the rest of
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: her life. She was hypothermic. I mean, you can't make that.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: And she saw pills and she crushed up pills in
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: some juice.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: Oh there you go. So you're telling me that this
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: woman tried self mutilation, pills and jumping out a window,
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: and you're gonna tell me she wasn't serious about her
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: suicidal ideation' That is the citilidation with plans, intent, and
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: follow through, And that is the definition of very serious
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: suicidal idation. That is that's wild.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: Patrick Clancy, which we haven't spoken about, but I do
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: want to mention that he took the stand. I mean,
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: talk about the trial you know, really jumping off at
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: the very beginning. They put him on the stand day
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: one and day two, and I think even part of
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: day three. He said from the beginning, don't blame her.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: This isn't who she is. His testimony is his testimony
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: every but he has opinions on it. I don't necessarily
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: need to get into all that. But he failed her,
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: in my opinion.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: He failed her very much so.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: And I have so many reasons why. I just don't
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: understand how when he was smart enough to know. And
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: by the way, his mother was also she worked and
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: I think she worked in labor and delivery, but she
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: worked at the hospital, like I think she was a
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: nurse too. But he's a very intelligent person. He knew
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: well enough to ask her, are you having disturbing thoughts
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: about harming the children? And she said yes? And do
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: you thought you.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: Put her in the basement, and you put her in
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: the basement alone, and you go out to run an
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: errand I mean, come on, listen.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: And he's remarried and has a child. But that's all
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: beside the point.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: No, literally, I was just going to say that too.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: This man has already moved on, got married and he
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: has another child, correct, yeah, already you know.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: Yes he does. And the woman that he married is
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: an IVF doctor. Now here's the other thing I can
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: look at. I can compartmentalize and look at that from
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: a completely different perspective and give him the benefit of
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: the doubt that this is so incomprehensibly horrific that he
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: had to do something drastic and move on with his
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: leg Sure, just a page one rewrite that I will
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: have to say. I will give him the benefit of
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: the doubt if he had done the right thing when
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: he was with Lindsey. I mean he divorced her by
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: the way, you know, well, of course, yeah.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: But so when when somebody is suicidal, you need to
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: loop in the family or again a trusted individual.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: They had, they did have her family come and help out.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: But here's the thing. She has said to him time
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: and time again that she had thoughts of harming the kids,
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: and yet he continued to leave her with the children,
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: and he'd never you know, why didn't you install cameras?
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Do you know how many people have security cameras in
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: their home? Why didn't you do that right?
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: Or just do a million other things like I'm at the.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Very least a million other things. There are a few
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: things that he tried to do, which has he got
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: his her family over to help out. He got his
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: mother involved to help her see somebody she saw like
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: this strange midwife kind of nurse for serious psychosis. She
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: couldn't help her. She moved her on to another person
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: and also Patrick. After something serious happened, he took her
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: to a postpartum clinic or rehabilitation facility that you and
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: I were talking about earlier that specifically for women who
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: are postpartum or have postpartum depression, like a really nice place, right.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: He took her there, dropped her off, and then he
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: took his little boy skiing. That day. They called him
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: from that rehabilitation facility and said, you have to come
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: pick her up. She's too high ACUITI for us, she
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: is not postpartum. This is something way more serious than
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: we can handle here.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: And they were right, were right. So after that, because
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: from what I understand, so she did that, she went impatient.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: She was psychiatrically hospitalized voluntarily.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: And that was later after that, yeah, right.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, that was after that, she reached out to suicide
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: Crisis hotlines. Yeah, because she didn't have a plan, right,
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: which they didn't.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: They didn't admit her. They didn't have a plan, so
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: they couldn't admit her. Then she went to the hospital
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: and they said the same thing. Then she did ultimately
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: check herself in and it was around the holiday, so
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: it was a skeleton crew. They made a point of this.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: At the hospital, she was just like doing crossword puzzles
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: and painting and not doing much of anything because no
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: one was around, right, And that.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: Is when you go impatient. It takes a lot of
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: medication management. And there are rules in REGs in terms
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: of like to qualify for your insurance to pay for
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: impatient mental health treatment, you have to have a suicidal ideation,
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: which is the thought with plan and intent or with plan,
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: And unfortunately that is a very broken part of the system. Now,
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: I know every situation is different, and she should have
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: gotten some help either way. I don't know what that
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: would have looked like in her state. I'm not familiar
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: with the you know, psychological policies in Massachusetts. I'm not,
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be honest, but it's just you look
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: at was failure after failure after failure. Yeah, and she's
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: screaming out for help.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: I mean it's trying too. She did try. The reason
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: why she left the hospital after she admitted herself is
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: because she wanted to be home for her daughter's birthday.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: And then I'm sure once she got home she's not
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: going to go back. And then why didn't they take
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: her back. It's none of it makes sense, right.
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: And the other thing that's severely lacking here, which I'm
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: going to be honest about, is discharge planning. So when
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: you discharge someone from anything, from a hospital, from outpatient,
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: from impatient wherever, you need a plan, a practical plan
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: for how is this person going to maintain this level
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: of health and success at home. Because we know the
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: home environment, you can go back to a lot of
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: things that are not helpful. And that is also in
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: my opinion, there wasn't a real good risk assessment done
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: for suicide and infanticide. There wasn't any practical difficulties looked
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: at due to her symptomatology, and there wasn't a good
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: treatment plan because she does have bal diverses.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: They sent her back to the first doctor that she
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: went to, who gave her a lot of the wrong medications.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: And didn't make adjustments, and then I think put her
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: back on another kind of medication that wasn't right for her.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: I believe fully that tricyclic antidepressant was the nail on
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: the coffin.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: Really, Trice, I really do trisic. Yeah, antidepressant antidepressant that
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: she was on.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: I do believe that. I believe it was. Like, because
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: all mental health issues, if they're you know, improperly treated,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: they're going to get worse. That's just a fact, really
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: a thousand percent. If it's not properly treated, yeah, it's
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: going to get worse. This specifically again, it's like I'll
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: use myself as an example. Let's say with my cancer.
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: Let's say I tried to take benadryl. Let's say for
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: my cancer, I'm a die because that's not the appropriate
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: treatment plan for my cancer. And so with this psychiatric emergency,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: being on improper medications or not having a mood stabilizer
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: or having them like going off and on. Some of
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: these medications take four to six weeks to work. And
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: when you're being put off and being put on and
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: you're not t traded or all those things, listen, it's
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: easy to be a Monday Morning Quarterback. I understand there
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: were some people who probably try to help her, but
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: I just feel like as a whole, she was failed
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: by her husband, she was failed by well, I would
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: say the system, but there's lack of a system. She
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: was failed by mental health professionals. She was just failed
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: upon failed upon failed. And I read a story of
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: a woman similar to what you said before or she
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: had experienced postpartum psychosis, and she said it took her
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: probably eight treatment providers to get to the right person.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's that makes you feel hopeless.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: But it does.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: Don't stop, you know, like you don't stop. That's the thing.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: And I mean I agree, I feel like that is
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: unfortunately the world we live in, you know, to get
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: to where we need to be.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: Listen, before, both times when I had cancer, I was
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: told I was a hypochondriac, and I know this is
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: not the same. Both times, both times they were literally
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: told me you're a hypochondriac, go and live your life,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: and both times it was cancer. So my point is,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: with very severe medical and physical issues, mental health, physical
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: health issues, unfortunately, the message is you will have to
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: try multiple providers before you get the right one. However,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: when you do, it will save your life. And it
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: is frustrating, but I'm not going to sugarcoat that, because
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: unless you know someone or you've worked with them before,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: or you have a referral from someone who you trust,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: it is very hard to get the person that you need.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: But there is help available, and so one of the
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: really important things that I want to point out is
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: where to get help. Yes, so first, there is a
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: National Maternal Mental Health Hotline. Oh yes. The number for
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: that is eight three three eight five two six two
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: six two. And I will post all of this on
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: my social media and on my patriots.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: And send it to your your friends who are pregnant
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: and who just had a baby, or just you know,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: just to say if you ever need this, here's this.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, because we can share this information.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: Exactly, and when we share it, we're less alone, and
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: if that provider can't help us, we can get to
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: somebody else that will be helpful. I saw multiple therapists
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: before I found the one that could really help me,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: and the one that I saw before harm me in
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of ways. And it's very sad, but unfortunately
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: you have to persevere and you have to keep trying,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: which is not fair, but it is right and we
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: deserve that right. We deserve that. So the other two things.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: Postpartum Support International is a really great group and they
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: have a wonderful website. It's www dot postpartum dot net.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: But they have a text option where you can text
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: help h ELP to eight hundred nine four four four
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: seven seven three. I want to kind of have the
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: end message be you're not alone, You're not crazy, you
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: are important and valuable and worthy, and help is available
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: and you can get through this.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can tell a friend that you trust, you
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: can tell your partner. You can write it in a
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: message and send it to somebody when you're feeling that way.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: If you don't feel like calling someone, send it in
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: a text in that moment, or send it in a
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: text that it'll automatically send tomorrow at nine am. Help
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: is one step away.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: It is. And I will reiterate that anxiety and some
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: of these issues thrive in secret, so you have to
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: say it out loud. You have to tell somebody, especially
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: if there's suicidal ideation in any way, shape or form,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: you have to tell someone. And I'm going to be honest,
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: I have major depressive disorder. And during the pandemic, I
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: experienced suicidal ideation and I had to work with my
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: therapist and my husband and I was really unsafe and
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: it was the scariest experience of my life.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, my brain.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: In that moment, I was convinced that I was a burden.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: I was convinced that this world would be better without me.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: And there is nothing that anybody could have told me.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: My husband tried, my therapist. I was like, no, this
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: is it in my brain. I'm telling you. My brain
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: was different. So why I share this and why I
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: give this as an example is that you have to
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: get people to say, I understand, this is what you think,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: but this is not accurate, This is not in line
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: with our shared reality. This is not it. And you know,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to be honest. We don't have kids,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: but my husband, he velkrode himself to me. I mean,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: there's not necessarily a right way to do it, but
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: he he attended to me in every way, shape and form,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: And so yeah, I'm really grateful. And today I'm going
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: to tell you this too. Today I am happier than
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: I've ever been. I still have depressive episodes. But the
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: difference is now, I do not experience suicidal idation. There
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: is nothing ever that could happen in my life that
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: would make me feel that that's an option anymore. And
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: that's because I've done a hell of a lot of
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: work medication. I have therapy every week, and I just
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: understand my value.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: And wow, Melissa, mm hmmm, that's so. I'm so glad
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: that you told us that. That means you thanks for
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: trusting really us And I speak to the to the darlings,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: and I speak to the vishes, you know, because yeah,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: I think that you know, with any experience that we
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: have that is so real, there's hundreds of other people
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: who are experiencing that same thing that where they feel
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: like they're in a vacuum. And so so thank you
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: for sharing that. I know that there are tons of
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: people that are probably listening that Look, it's very common,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you know.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, super common and common. Yeah, And to see
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: you on the other side of it, and not for nothing,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: but you did the hard work too, you know, and
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: starting from the beginning of speaking your truth, and that
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: was where my healings started because for the longest time
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: I internalized it I wouldn't tell anybody, and it thrived,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: and it thrived, and it thrived. And so now part
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: of my healing recovery is whatever comes into my brain,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: I have to say it out loud. I don't care
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: if it's scary or what people are going to think.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: I gotta tell my trusted people that. And that really
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: does make the difference.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: I like that a lot.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: And here's what I'll tell you. If I would have
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: ended my life, I would have never done this, literally never.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: I would have never met you. I would have never podcasted,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: none of y'all would have ever heard my voice. Never.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: I would have never experienced this. So there is hope
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: and beauty and lovely things on the other side of
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: it's just got to hang on and get their treatment and.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: Get the help and just grab a microphone and start talking.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I suggest to people, I'm serious. You know,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know anyone who likes journaling. I know some
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: people do, and Lindsay Clancy certainly did. Some people love
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: journal But everyone I've ever met hates a journal. Yeah.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: But you know what I suggest, voice memos. Voice memos.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: That's a great idea, amazing way to get out the
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: things that are in there to get it out there,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: and then you have the recording that you can play
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: for your therapist or your trusted person. Wow, and it
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: can give the tone and the context and all that
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: other stuff. That is one of the most helpful things
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: that I have found. So I will share that with everybody.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: And I will share one last thing. Yes, I think
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: one of the most helpful for me is just recording
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: myself doing TikTok dances and sending them to people who
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: don't want them. It's very therapeutic and I'm getting it
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: out there and I'm dancing my truth. I'm kidding. I don't.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: I actually don't do TikTok dancing, but oh.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: Well, dancing is really good for the nervous system. Dancing
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: is actually moving your body. Is a great way to
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: get out some of those stuck emotions and like a
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: frozen nervous system, move it's really great.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: Movement is great. I can even say, like, even during
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: that time when I first have had Maddie, I was
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: very active, and I think if I wasn't, it would
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: have been worse. I don't know, I could be wrong
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: with Tibet. I think it would And I didn't even
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: know it at the time, but like, thinking back, I'm like, oh,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: that's a good thing that I was getting my ass
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: outside and doing all this shit and like and distracting,
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: you know, doing things that like I was passionate about too, Like.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: Right right, yeah, you got to have those hobbies, those
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: things that make you feel sparks of joy. Like even
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: in my impressive episodes, like recently I just had one,
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: I hang on and I talk about it until I
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: find those sparks of joy and when you feel it
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: in your soul, it's.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: Like, oh, so you're saying you got your sparkle bike.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: I got my sparkle back, all bike.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: Well, like Britney says like she got her sparkle back,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: but like, you know, and that's in more of a
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: generalized way. But I think the way that you're saying it,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: which I think is a lot more uh realistic, is
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: finding your sparkle every time you possibly can, when you
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: totally are like flat lined, you know, you can just
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: a quick little sparkle. Oh just look there it is.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: You know, it doesn't have to be like my life
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: has changed. I've got a you know, I've had a
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: mommy makeover, and now I'm dating somebody. It's not that
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: it's like, it's it's.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: The work from then. Yeah, now listen, that's great too. Hey,
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: look but hit me up. You know I'd love to
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: get a tummy tuck. But like, here's the thing.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: But every you know, every time you can find a
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: little sparkle here and there, you know, that's great.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: And savor the spark until it comes back more. Because
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you, when I'm in a depressive episode, I
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: will feel a sparkle of joy for like maybe a minute,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: and then it completely goes away. But I hold onto
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: that for dear life, knowing that more is coming and
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: it doesn't Wow every time. Wow, no one ever stays
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: depressed forever. Yes, I promise you.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: I think we should do an episode and getting your
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: sparkle back on an everyday basis.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: I think we should say you seem to have a
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: real technique there that I am very interested in.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: So okay, well listen if people are interested in that, hell, yeah,
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: let's do it.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: Let's do it. I will back up.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: I want to thank you, I mean for again your
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: vulnerability and sharing things that.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: Like right back at you, sister, right back at you.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: I just I'm so grateful for this episode. I'm so
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: grateful for the conversation. And I just hope that this
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: episode helps people. And I just hope that the world
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: we can do some things to help protect women and
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: children and you know, meet their needs a lot better.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: That's that's my hope at the end of the day.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: So me too. Well, thanks for listening everybody, and yeah,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: and you know, send this podcast to someone that you
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: think could use it. That's right, that's right.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: And Amy, please as always tell everybody where they can
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: find our most beautiful Well, Amy Phillips.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: Not on TikTok doing dances, but I will get there.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: But I'm never getting there. I deleted TikTok. I was like,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: oh fuck this, I cannot do it. It's just for me.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: I try, I fail, I cannot do it.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: Well, listen, we don't all need to do it, and
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: that's just fine. But yeah, you can find me. Meet
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: Amy Phillips on Instagram. I'm over on Patreon, patreon, dot
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: com slash drama Darling and that's ad free episodes, video
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: and other things.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: So you do so many fun things on your Patreon,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: so many fun things.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, they have like a cooking thing yeah, I just
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: started to cook along dinner with the darlings. God yeah,
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: and we just yeah, we had a guest So I'm
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: gonna have different guest chefs or cooks and mal was
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: my first one. And she's just a Darling listener and
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: she loves to cook. So last time I did one,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: she was like, Oh, I love to cook. I do
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: all this time. I'm like, want to do the next one.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: She's like, yup. So it was I'm gonna keep doing that.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: It's really fun.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, check out her patreon because it really is great.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: You do so many fat things. I also have a patreon.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: I do a little bit less than Amy because your
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: girl's been in the weeds. But if you'd like to
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: check that out, I do ad free. I do full
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: video because people like to watch video. And you know,
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: there's just a lot of sense of community on the
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: bish patreon, which I really really love and appreciate. We
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: have a lot of Darling Bishes who enjoy both of
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: us and Amy and I I'm on our patreon. We're
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: going to do a Darling Bish zoom.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, so hey, if y'all.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: Are interested in that. Patreon dot com backslash either your
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: Bish Therapist or Drama Darling. Please check us out, and
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: of course please, if you could be so kind, give
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: us a five star review, because it really helps and
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: people can be really fine. So with that we'll just
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: say thank you so much for listening. Thank you, Amy,
• 1:12:49
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  Speaker 2: Thanks Melissa, talk to you soon, TTFN Everybody.
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• 1:13:48
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