Latest / Blocked and Reported / Live with Katie Herzog & Sarah Hepola

Transcript

Live with Katie Herzog & Sarah Hepola · Blocked and Reported

0:01
SPEAKER_02: So let's get to it.
0:02
SPEAKER_02: Sarah, thank you so much for joining me.
0:04
SPEAKER_02: Before we get started, I want to remind everyone that this is not an episode.
0:09
SPEAKER_02: So I know that you are already,
0:11
SPEAKER_02: you're keyed up, you're in the comment section, you're ready to comment.
0:14
SPEAKER_02: This is a weird episode.
0:15
SPEAKER_02: It's not an episode.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: This is a live.
0:18
SPEAKER_02: Sarah and I are talking to each other live on Substack.
0:21
SPEAKER_02: We have an audience here.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: Trickling in right now.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: And then this post has got this,
0:26
SPEAKER_02: the audio of this and the video will be available for primo subscribers.
0:30
SPEAKER_02: But this is not an episode.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: This is like a bonus thing.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: Just so everyone's clear, not an episode.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: Housekeeping out of the way.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: Sarah, welcome to this live.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: Sarah is the author of the best-selling memoir,
0:46
SPEAKER_02: Blackout,
0:47
SPEAKER_02: Remembering the Things I Drank and Forget,
0:49
SPEAKER_02: and the just-published memoir of Love, Sex,
0:51
SPEAKER_02: and Life,
0:52
SPEAKER_02: The Only Thing There Is to Want, both of which I have read and greatly enjoyed.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: Sarah, you are a great storyteller.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: You're also just a total wordsmith.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: Your writing is a pleasure to read, even when the stories that you're telling are hard to hear.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: And since you are And since both of us really have some experience
1:14
SPEAKER_02: with drunken decision making,
1:16
SPEAKER_02: I think in the second half of the show or not show at some point in this live.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: Not an episode, Katie.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you know that.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: I do know it.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: I briefly forgot.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: But I think at some point, let's talk about Cornell and what's going on there.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: But first, let's talk about the new book.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: I have a copy right here.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: Well loved.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: Page through.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: Lots of notes.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like this is a fetching cover?
1:41
SPEAKER_02: I like it.
1:42
SPEAKER_02: I like it.
1:42
SPEAKER_02: I have the hardback, too.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: This is the galley, but I have the hardback, which is quite lovely.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: The cover is classic and classy.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: It's Bookman Font is the name of that font.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: It's a very 70s font.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Probably the most popular uses are Portnoy's Complaint,
1:59
SPEAKER_00: which is a late 60s title, and Erica Jong's Fear of Flying.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: It really just looked like the designer just ripped off those two books.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: But I'm fine because Fear of Flying ripped off Portnoy's Complaint.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: So it's just like, let's just keep this ball rolling.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: I am curious about what... Go ahead.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: No, I was going to say someone on Substack called it the biggest wine mom font in
2:22
SPEAKER_00: the world.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, can I be a wine mom if I, A, am 16 years sober and B, am not a mom?
2:29
SPEAKER_00: And they were like,
2:31
SPEAKER_02: yeah, sure.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: I could see a live, laugh, love sign in like, but like a high end Dallas home with that font.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: Like it would have to be a classy house.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: Not like, not, not a trashy house, a classy house.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: When you are living and laughing and loving, but at a higher class level.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:52
SPEAKER_02: More expensive bottles of living, loving, loving.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: You go to Bookman Font.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: So you were teeing me up, I think, probably to talk to me about what the book is about, right?
3:03
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
3:03
SPEAKER_02: Why don't you tell the audience here, tell the people what the book is about?
3:11
SPEAKER_00: So Blackout is a story that I wrote.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: It came out in 2015, and it's about why I fell in love with alcohol and why I had to walk away.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: And the reveal of that is in the title, Blackout.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: I had a little problem.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: And in the years after that,
3:28
SPEAKER_00: after I got my first book out of the way,
3:30
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to write my first book more than anything.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: And after I got my first book out of the way...
3:36
SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, now I want to have a kid.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like I literally was like, oh,
3:40
SPEAKER_00: I should have a baby because I've always wanted to have a kid,
3:43
SPEAKER_00: but I had to write the book first.
3:44
SPEAKER_00: I had to get sober.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: I had to write the book.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't have a partner, boyfriend, boy toy, whatever you want to call it.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, actually, you called Jana your wife, right?
3:56
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: And I'll tell you, I feel weird about it.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a little gay.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: I don't love calling her my wife.
4:03
SPEAKER_02: I hear that and I'm like, that is so gay.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: That is just like embarrassingly homosexual.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: I wish that there were...
4:10
SPEAKER_02: But partner is too straight.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: If I said partner,
4:12
SPEAKER_02: people would assume that I was a straight person trying to seem like a gay person.
4:17
SPEAKER_02: So if there were...
4:19
SPEAKER_02: I mean, David Sedaris, he's his boyfriend for his husband, Hugh.
4:23
SPEAKER_02: They're actually married.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: But he calls him his boyfriend.
4:26
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: I need another word.
4:28
SPEAKER_02: I need a word.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: I can't figure it out.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: So when I'm dating someone, I'll say, like, my guy.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's my guy.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: But it would be so weird if you were, like, my lady.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: You know?
4:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: Gal?
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Or my gal.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: You know?
4:42
SPEAKER_02: I kind of like gal.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: I do, too.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: My broad.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: My bitch.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: How about my bitch?
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think partner is such a funny trajectory because when I was in college,
4:55
SPEAKER_00: partner meant people were gay.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: And so there would be progressive dudes in class that would be like, I have a partner.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: There was this one guy who's dating a girl named Bradley.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: So he's like, I have a partner named Bradley.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: For the whole semester, everyone thought he was gay.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: And it's like in now you fast forward 25 years and I don't know a gay person
5:17
SPEAKER_00: that would use partner.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: So I refer to Jesse as my partner.
5:25
SPEAKER_02: And I had this very embarrassing moment a couple of weeks ago when my mother-in-law,
5:32
SPEAKER_02: Jana's mom, and we do not acknowledge that Jana and I are gay in that household.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: It's just like we're married.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: It's a thing, but we don't acknowledge it.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: I think, is that Wallace behind you?
5:43
SPEAKER_02: He's making an appearance?
5:46
SPEAKER_00: Wallace has made a very rare video appearance.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: That was subtle.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: He snuck in.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: He knows that he's in competition with Moose right now and that Moose is right by your feet.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: And he heard me talking about that and he was like, listen, I'm also an amazing...
6:04
SPEAKER_00: I want to just...
6:06
SPEAKER_02: He's pretty.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: I'll say that.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: He's pretty.
6:08
SPEAKER_02: He looks like a shedder, though.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: I have to vacuum every day.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: And my cat, it doesn't matter.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: You know how that,
6:16
SPEAKER_00: like you would think like a little exposure therapy,
6:18
SPEAKER_00: like after 25 times the cat would be like,
6:20
SPEAKER_00: you know what, the world's not going to end if the vacuum starts.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: But every single day he's like, Jesus
6:25
SPEAKER_01: Christ, it's the apocalypse.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: And he hides.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
6:33
SPEAKER_00: I just think it's so interesting
6:35
SPEAKER_00: that I know that's not this is not what this podcast is about,
6:38
SPEAKER_00: but this podcast is about kind of the shape shifting culture of dating and
6:42
SPEAKER_00: the social mores around that.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: And so to watch,
6:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
6:46
SPEAKER_00: gay relationships or even what you call them, like that it went from gay to queer.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: Like and that you're signifying all these things by whether you Gay, lesbian, queer.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: That's so much pressure.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: I would just want to be like, this is my girl.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm out.
7:02
SPEAKER_02: This is my guy.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
7:04
SPEAKER_02: So the embarrassing thing that happened with Jana's mom, she was leaving.
7:08
SPEAKER_02: They'd spent the night with us and she was leaving.
7:11
SPEAKER_02: And she said, don't let that partner of yours work you too hard.
7:15
SPEAKER_02: And I thought she was talking about Jana and Yeah.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh my God, that's amazing.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: And then a couple of weeks ago,
7:42
SPEAKER_00: my pod partner is Nancy and she is the only person,
7:46
SPEAKER_00: Nancy Rommelman, the great Nancy Rommelman.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: And we do a podcast called Smoke Them If You Got Them.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: And excuse me, I burped.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: And I once said on Twitter, I love my partner so much.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: And like, I basically had a tweet.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: She says silly things and I just adore them.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: And some guy was like, oh, I didn't know.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: And I was like,
8:08
SPEAKER_00: You didn't know I had a podcast or you didn't know that you now think I'm in
8:12
SPEAKER_00: a relationship with this hot babe.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: I don't know which one.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: Either one.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: Partner to me signifies straight.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: So, okay.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: So what I was trying to say was that I got into my 40s and I wasn't married
8:24
SPEAKER_00: and I didn't have a kid and I had wanted both of those things.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: And I was sort of trying to figure out if I'd made a mistake or this had happened to me.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: You know, I was trying to solve the question of did the culture change?
8:39
SPEAKER_00: Because I could see our world, culture, writing.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't podcasting at the time, but I was writing.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: I had been a personal essays editor at Salon
8:50
SPEAKER_00: where I published your favorite essay you ever wrote.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: I have it here to read.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm just kidding.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Katie hates that essay.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: But so anyway, I was personal essays editor.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Then I went into sort of like,
9:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
9:04
SPEAKER_00: writing for the big marquee names,
9:06
SPEAKER_00: the New York Times or women's magazines because they pay really well or whatever
9:09
SPEAKER_00: about culture.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: And I'm watching all the trends go in one direction, which is toward a life on your own.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: What I mean by that is people are getting married less.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: People are not having children.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: They're delaying childbirth or they're not having children at all.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm realizing, I mean, this is embarrassing, but it is very, I think, common to my age group.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: I was 41 and I was like, okay, well, maybe I'll just have a kid on my own.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: I'll go get my eggs frozen.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: I literally thought that at 41, which is like, no, you can't do that.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: You missed that window at 35.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: So I'm realizing that a window has closed.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: If I want to get like science and everything involved,
9:58
SPEAKER_00: I've maybe got like a five-year window and it's going to be like $100,000
10:02
SPEAKER_00: that I don't have.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: So it's,
10:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm realizing this and meanwhile I'm trying to date and it's so hard
10:10
SPEAKER_00: and it's this question of like, is it hard because I'm picky?
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Is it hard because...
10:15
SPEAKER_00: The dating apps suck.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: Is it hard because men and women are so kind of like organized or groomed
10:23
SPEAKER_00: by our social media channels to hate each other?
10:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this was the Tinder era.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: So 2015, my book comes out.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: That's right around the time Tinder hits big in the culture.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: And I was in Los Angeles that summer because I was thinking about moving there.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: I didn't end up moving there, but I was there.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: And Everybody was talking about Tinder.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: My married friends, everybody.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: If you weren't on it, they wanted to know why you weren't on it.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: And then you would say, well, I'm not on Tinder.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: It looks like a shit show.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: And then they'd say, well, are you single?
10:55
SPEAKER_00: And then you'd say yes.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: And they'd say, well, you have to be on Tinder.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: And then you would get on Tinder and you'd end up in some situationship
11:01
SPEAKER_00: with some guy that was dating five other women.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: And they were like, well, what do you expect?
11:05
SPEAKER_00: It's Tinder.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: So it felt like this Chinese finger trap that you couldn't,
11:09
SPEAKER_00: like every move, if you don't join Tinder, You're fucked.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: If you do join, chances are you're fucked.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: Now, meanwhile, there are people on Tinder, millions of people were using Tinder.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: There are people on Tinder that are meeting and falling in love.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: And there are people that are on Match.com that are saying,
11:25
SPEAKER_00: I just want a good old fashioned relationship.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: And then they're boning each other's brains out.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: So there's,
11:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:31
SPEAKER_00: there's I was really interested in the in the difference
11:33
SPEAKER_00: between what we say we want.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: I think as a writer,
11:37
SPEAKER_00: this is kind of the only territory there is,
11:41
SPEAKER_00: which is the difference between what you say and how you feel.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: And the space between that was really rich for Blackout because it was about
11:50
SPEAKER_00: that female empowerment age of I can drink like the boys,
11:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm as bad as you, and then meanwhile inside...
11:57
SPEAKER_00: My brain is literally shutting down and we can talk later if you want about what
12:00
SPEAKER_00: a blackout is because I do think when we get into the Cornell discussion,
12:04
SPEAKER_00: I had a conversation today with a young woman who's 23 or 24 and she's like,
12:08
SPEAKER_00: so what's a blackout?
12:09
SPEAKER_00: It's passing out?
12:10
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Jesus Christ,
12:12
SPEAKER_00: I've been doing this for 10 years and it's never like, I just, people don't know it.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: So we'll talk about that later,
12:19
SPEAKER_00: but you know,
12:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm five foot two and I am,
12:23
SPEAKER_00: you know, In my heavy binge drinking days, you know, I was probably 150, 160.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, like right now, I'm like all of 125 pounds.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm not a small, I'm not a big person.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: So the idea that I was drinking like six foot three linebackers and thinking
12:40
SPEAKER_00: that I would be able to keep up with them.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: That is to me felt like evidence of this sort of delusion of equality that we share
12:50
SPEAKER_00: in a lot of our discourse where it's like, no, of course we're equal.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
12:54
SPEAKER_00: OK, we're equal in opportunity or maybe equally loved or whatever you want to say.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: But the idea that you and I are equal, it doesn't even make
13:00
SPEAKER_01: any sense.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: Why would everybody be equal?
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Like some people can run faster.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: Some people can reach higher.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: Why wouldn't it track that drinking is the same?
13:10
SPEAKER_00: So that was the subject of blackout.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: Coming out of that,
13:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm now in this world where I want love,
13:15
SPEAKER_00: I want a family, and I'm realizing, oh, shit.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sort of trying to solve the riddle of do I choose the wrong guys or did
13:25
SPEAKER_00: the moment not choose me?
13:27
SPEAKER_00: One of the shocking statistics while I was working on this book is Ada Calhoun wrote
13:32
SPEAKER_00: a book called Why We're Not Sleeping.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: Do you remember that book?
13:35
SPEAKER_00: It was about middle-aged women.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: No.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: It was a good book.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: She's a great writer and she's an old friend.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: She interviewed me for that book and I was in a section on what's called ambiguous loss.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: So this is the idea that you never had a kid but you don't really know how
13:51
SPEAKER_00: to grieve it because you don't know what it was.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: And I love that phrase because I'd never had a phrase before.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: Excuse me for what I was dealing with.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: And just like the problem with alcohol and sex,
14:03
SPEAKER_00: there was a sort of mainstream media taboo around talking around the grief
14:09
SPEAKER_00: of not having children or in my case,
14:11
SPEAKER_00: maybe some mixed feelings about having an abortion at 30.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: So I didn't know where to put those.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, this ambiguous loss fit that.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: But she says in there that when my cohort turned 40,
14:23
SPEAKER_00: There were 10% of us that were never married, no kids.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: That was the first time I had seen a statistic around my cohort.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: 10%, that sounds about right.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, about 10 years later,
14:36
SPEAKER_00: the millennials turned 40,
14:39
SPEAKER_00: and there was a statistic that 25% of them were never married.
14:44
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
14:44
SPEAKER_02: And that's men and women?
14:47
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
14:47
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
14:48
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: I was like, holy shit.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: And everyone had told me that during those 10 years, like the numbers only getting bigger.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: The next generation is going to be huge.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: And I thought I knew there was going to be a leap.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know there was going to be a leap of times.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: What is that?
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Two and a half or one and a half or whatever it is.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: Times two and a half.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: So I was interested in all of that.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: And I like to tell a good old fashioned story.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: So what I do is I put the sociology up front in the prologue so you can kind
15:23
SPEAKER_00: of get like the download of like this is where we're going thematically
15:27
SPEAKER_00: and this is what's going on culturally.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm going to drop you into three different stories and we're going
15:32
SPEAKER_00: to it's not going to be so much of the,
15:36
SPEAKER_00: you know, and then the Pew Research study was that, you know.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: It reads as a memoir.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: Predictably, my internet is terrible.
15:45
SPEAKER_02: And no, I cannot get an ethernet cord for very complicated reasons that none
15:49
SPEAKER_02: of you would understand.
15:50
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to take my laptop closer to my modem router.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to walk with you.
15:56
SPEAKER_02: You're going to walk with me, Sarah.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: So while I do that, let's see, I'm going to change my microphone here and see how this works.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: So somebody says that the fifth column boys beat you again.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: But Sarah's a good guest.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: So thank you, Patricia.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: But I do want to say that Katie did not actually get beaten by the fifth column.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: Katie and I arranged this before that was settled.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: But Katie wanted people to be able to read the book.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: And the fifth column guys were like, we don't care.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Just do it now.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: They're always doing this to
16:35
SPEAKER_02: me.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: I think they tapped my phones and they have figured out that...
16:40
SPEAKER_00: We did do
16:41
SPEAKER_02: a...
16:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh, sorry.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: How's this?
16:45
SPEAKER_01: Can you guys hear me?
16:48
SPEAKER_01: Can you see me?
16:49
SPEAKER_01: Is this better?
16:53
SPEAKER_01: No, I can't hear you at all.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: Sarah, can you hear me?
16:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they did...
17:00
SPEAKER_00: They did tap your phone, by the way.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's not surprising.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: Now, you can't hear me.
17:08
SPEAKER_02: I can hear you now.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: But I can't see you.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: Can you hear me?
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Oh, Jesus.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: Can you guys hear Sarah?
17:27
SPEAKER_01: All right, well, now it's just me.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: Sarah is, I'm sure, going to rejoin when she can.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: Let me try to invite her again.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: All right, Sarah.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: All right, I'll show you.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: How about while we wait for Sarah, how about
17:47
SPEAKER_01: Moose comes and makes an appearance?
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Would you grab Moose for me?
17:53
SPEAKER_01: How's this sound, you guys?
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Can you guys hear me okay?
17:58
SPEAKER_01: Hey Moose, come here.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: Hi Moose,
18:04
SPEAKER_01: come here.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: Come here.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: Come here.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: Come here.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there he is.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: All right.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: So you can hear me.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: We're slow.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: Jana, can you, are you on the stream?
18:16
SPEAKER_01: No.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Will you see if you can hear me and see me?
18:20
SPEAKER_02: All right.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to resend the invitation to Sarah.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: And text her.
18:28
SPEAKER_02: Apologies for this, guys.
18:31
SPEAKER_02: If anybody has any questions,
18:34
SPEAKER_02: go ahead and ask me and I
18:36
SPEAKER_01: will answer them while we wait for Sarah.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: Here's this.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm here.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: And I joined with my phone.
18:59
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: Because what happened is that my stupid laptop,
19:03
SPEAKER_00: like as your thing was having problems, mine was too.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: It was like, we can no longer support this.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: And it just crapped out.
19:11
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think we're good.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: You look sharper to me now.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: And Moose has joined me.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: He's here.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: That's a handsome dog.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for saying that.
19:21
SPEAKER_02: I think so too.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: So let's go back to the book before we were so rudely interrupted by our internet problems.
19:28
SPEAKER_02: One second.
19:29
SPEAKER_02: Hey, Jana.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: Hey, Jana.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Will you bring me my tea?
19:37
SPEAKER_01: It's in my office.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: Hey, Wallace.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: Wallace.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: Will you come here?
19:45
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: It's not going to work for me.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
19:48
SPEAKER_02: All right.
19:49
SPEAKER_02: So the book, the book, tell people about the structure.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: We know the philosophy behind it.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: Give us the structure.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, it basically follows three profound relationships in my life.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: So they're not necessarily the longest or biggest relationships, but they were transformational.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: And they really follow about 20 years.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: So it, the three, it's in three parts.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: And they're about, each one is about a different man.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: The first one is the detective.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: So when I was in my 30s,
20:19
SPEAKER_00: I was living in New York City and I dated a homicide detective that lived
20:25
SPEAKER_00: in New Orleans.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: And it's a crazy story about how we met.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: But for time purposes, I will just say that I fell in love with him super hard.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: I was a little late to get married amongst my friends.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: I was 32, 33.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: I was sort of going to everyone's wedding and being like, oh, I'm not nervous.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm not worried.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: And then finally I met him and it was like, okay, great.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: Like I found my guy.
20:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: And he has some attachment issues and he was also a homicide detective.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: And it was,
20:55
SPEAKER_00: so he ended up breaking up with me very suddenly the week before we were going
21:01
SPEAKER_00: to meet my parents in Dallas.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: I call it the guillotine option.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
21:07
SPEAKER_00: that was so rattling to me that it kicked off the worst year of my drinking
21:11
SPEAKER_00: and What's really strange to people that read Blackout is that I don't mention him.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: And the reason I don't mention him,
21:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I do obliquely say that there was a guy and I lost my mind and all this.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: But the reason I don't mention it is because it was too much.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: It was going to steal focus from this book to be like, oh,
21:31
SPEAKER_00: and then I got robbed at gunpoint and ended up falling in love with the detective on
21:34
SPEAKER_00: the case.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: Everybody's like, what the fuck?
21:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a big side quest.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: It's a big, so he got cut out of Blackout.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: So I knew he was going to be part of this book even before he came back
21:46
SPEAKER_00: into my life, which he did while I was working on this book.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: The second person that it talks about,
21:52
SPEAKER_00: although they're not in this order,
21:54
SPEAKER_00: is a married man that when I was sober and in my late 30s, I came back to Dallas.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: I became friends with this guy.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: He had one of these jobs that I was like, what now?
22:06
SPEAKER_00: It's like an investment bank, something, something.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: But he was,
22:09
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've ever known these people that are like,
22:12
SPEAKER_00: What would you call it?
22:13
SPEAKER_00: Like corporate in the streets, artist in the sheets kind of thing.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, like he really had this incredible creative artist heart.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: But the money and the sort of lifestyle of a very rich person.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: That's great.
22:30
SPEAKER_02: That's the point.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, he paid for everything that we did.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was a broke writer and he would always pay for dinner.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: So that was nice.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm so easy to please.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, pizza, you're going to pay?
22:40
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
22:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, pizza is expensive now.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: It's so expensive.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: And I just realized that I'm using these headphones and I don't actually,
22:48
SPEAKER_00: they're not plugged in.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm just talking on my phone.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: So I don't actually need them.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I would, anyway, have it.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, he...
23:05
SPEAKER_00: He and I were together for whatever.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: It's a protracted period of time because there was like six months
23:11
SPEAKER_00: where we were friends and six months where we were maybe something more
23:14
SPEAKER_00: and six months where we were like super way in.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: He had a situation with his wife where his wife had said,
23:21
SPEAKER_00: you know, you can go outside the marriage if you want.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: He,
23:26
SPEAKER_00: I think she meant if you're in Rome and somebody wants to have a threesome with you,
23:33
SPEAKER_00: he was like, Why would I want to do that?
23:36
SPEAKER_00: I want to have this love affair.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, but that ends and I'm so, it ends like sort of as I'm writing Blackout.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: And so I write Blackout in the grief period of that.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe you understand this,
23:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:49
SPEAKER_00: when you're mourning,
23:51
SPEAKER_00: like I could write like a motherfucker,
23:53
SPEAKER_00: you know, like I, cause grief and anger are like huge creative fuels.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: And so I wrote that book and it came out and then I was sort of like, Oh,
24:05
SPEAKER_00: now I'm going to find my guy because I've got the book behind me and I'm well past
24:11
SPEAKER_00: the grief stage.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: And then I go on book tour and it's like everybody's female.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I wasn't prepared for that.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: I did not realize that every book event I was going to do was going to be entirely women.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: I would be like, hello, boys.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: And it would just be like 500 women.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: And I met the most amazing women.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Guys, understandably,
24:37
SPEAKER_00: were not going to show up and be like, hey,
24:38
SPEAKER_00: let me hit on the woman that, like, writes about fucking strangers in blackouts.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: You know, whether they think that's offensive or whether they think that's too vulnerable.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not a good look to be like, hey, lady.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: Then I go on the dating apps,
24:56
SPEAKER_00: which are their own kind of sweet hell,
24:58
SPEAKER_00: and I eventually end up matching with a younger man,
25:01
SPEAKER_00: a guy that's 14 years younger than me.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Now, Katie, how old are you?
25:04
SPEAKER_00: 43.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so he is now 38.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: It's our age gap plus four or five, right?
25:14
SPEAKER_02: Are you going to ask me if you're a predator?
25:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you are.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: Well, I know that I'm a predator.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to ask you if I'm a hot predator.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: That's the important thing.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: The fifth boys, man, that age gap thing is wild.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: Those fifth boys grilled me on dating someone that was actually 21.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: And I only went on a few dates with them,
25:37
SPEAKER_00: but When I actually, I dated two different guys that were 21.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: What happened?
25:41
SPEAKER_02: Wait, wait, when was, that's not in the book.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: It's not in the book.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: It's not in the book.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: It's, that honestly,
25:46
SPEAKER_00: I could have written a whole book about this Tinder blitzkrieg,
25:49
SPEAKER_00: Tinder hinge blitzkrieg that I did after it.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: So I fall for the younger man.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: He's like, to me, he's like, I can't even describe him.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: He works in a factory and a locomotive factory.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: He reads Don DeLillo and like,
26:05
SPEAKER_00: Knows William F. Buckley and like, I don't understand how this person exists.
26:11
SPEAKER_02: Right.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: And he's so, he's beautiful.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: He's a beautiful soul and a beautiful person, but he's got very millennial, love avoidant,
26:24
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, he's real hot and cold.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: It's real cat and mouse.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: He eventually is just like, you know, and his brother's in a wheelchair.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: So we've got some family drama that I don't really go into, but it was big in his life.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know,
26:39
SPEAKER_00: he's after like months of this, he's like, listen, I'm just gonna let you down.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: Please go.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm so heartbroken that I push out into the like, I'm going to date five guys a week.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was nuts, Katie.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: And I dated... What's weird about the apps is the scrambler of you can meet anybody.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I never dated anybody outside my age range, really.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, when I was younger, when I was 13, I was dating older boys.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: But that's like, I'm 14, they're 18.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's what I'm talking about.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: I was dating...
27:14
SPEAKER_00: First, so the younger man was 14 years younger than me.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm 44.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: He's 30, essentially.
27:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: After that, I'm like, well, can I go lower?
27:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, without a problem.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: And this was Hinge now.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm not on Tinder anymore.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm on Hinge.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: And all the younger guys are on Hinge.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: And I think what was happening,
27:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure, was that their cohort of women were looking for rich.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: Guys that could take them out every night of the week.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: For dinner.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: They want free meals.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: And these guys are like, I work at like a photocopier place.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: But older women don't care.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: So they've identified the older women cohort as fish in a barrel sexually, which I was not.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: And nobody believes me, but I was not.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: And we can get to that later if you want.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: But like...
28:10
SPEAKER_00: I think that one of the cultural rots is that people will just sleep with each other
28:14
SPEAKER_00: after they meet each other.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: That's my drinking life.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: Now in my sober life, I cannot do that.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: But I can talk to them.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: I think they were fun, interesting.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: There was one guy that played basketball for Princeton.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: There was one guy that, well,
28:31
SPEAKER_00: and now you get into were they lying to me because there was one guy
28:34
SPEAKER_00: that said he played basketball in Europe.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: But I have no idea.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: His name was Napoleon.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't say his name because that's very done faggot.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: We can find that.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he was gorgeous, Katie.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: He was gorgeous.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to find him after this.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: Jess.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: And he told me that he played basketball in Europe.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: And then he would like send me these hot pictures of himself.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: And I would be like, thanks.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: And he'd be like, now your turn.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, no, sorry.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: I don't do that with anybody that I'm not dating.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: And he was like.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: I don't understand.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is a hot picture of me.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Now it's your turn.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, no.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: And then he just sort of got decided that I was too much work.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: Different norms.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: Age.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: There's an age gap.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: There was an age gap.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: We did make out in a gay bar, though.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: We went to dinner at a Mexican restaurant downtown,
29:26
SPEAKER_00: and then there was this beautiful bar next door.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: We ended up going to this bar, and then we were making out.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: And then we looked around, and we were like, oh, shit.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: This is a gay bar.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: And I felt so guilty.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: And he was like, no, it's cool.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: It's cool.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I don't know that it's cool.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: I think we should leave.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: I think we should leave.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: So sorry, I got off on tangents.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: My point is that those are the three structures, detective, married man, younger man.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:55
SPEAKER_02: And there's some fantastic twists in the book, unexpected twists that we won't reveal here.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: People should read it.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: So You write both in the new book and in Blackout.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: You're very frank, both about your emotional states, about your actions.
30:12
SPEAKER_02: You write about sex in detail.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: My book ignores the existence of sex.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: Sex does not exist in my book.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: I would never write about sex.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: I can barely read about sex.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: But did you have it?
30:26
SPEAKER_02: I won't answer that question.
30:30
SPEAKER_02: I am sex negative.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm a prude.
30:33
SPEAKER_02: I respect that.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm a prude with a long drinking career.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: And I will, you can, yes.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: So the answer
30:43
SPEAKER_00: is yes,
30:44
SPEAKER_00: you had sex because I know what that life is like,
30:46
SPEAKER_00: but I'm not going to make you answer that.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: And I actually really respect that, Katie.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: And I think that people that dated you and unexpectedly wound up in bed with you,
30:54
SPEAKER_00: respect that all.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: Because I think that a lot of people wish I were a little more sex negative.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: Right.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know,
31:03
SPEAKER_02: one of the things I was thinking about when I was writing my book is people
31:07
SPEAKER_02: who I know are going to read this book.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: So people who I know who have read the book often say things to me like,
31:13
SPEAKER_02: I can't believe you put this in the book.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, you don't get it.
31:16
SPEAKER_02: The bad shit's not in the book.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: The shit that I was willing to put in the book is not things
31:20
SPEAKER_02: that I find especially embarrassing or revealing.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: That stuff exists, but it's not in the book.
31:27
SPEAKER_02: You, and maybe you're the same way.
31:29
SPEAKER_02: Maybe there's worse shit in the book that you don't, in other books that you don't mention.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: There's definitely worse shit,
31:35
SPEAKER_00: but I have a much higher threshold for my willingness to share mortifying details
31:40
SPEAKER_00: than you do.
31:41
SPEAKER_02: Okay, talk me through that.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: So I am a memoirist and I think of you as more of a cultural critic,
31:49
SPEAKER_00: actually more of a like comedian in a lot of ways.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: Like I think you're super funny.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: And I, you know,
31:54
SPEAKER_00: I think that,
31:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't see your lane being like, I'm going to disclose the human condition to you.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: That's just not—and especially that book.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: That book is about critiquing the ways we get sober and talk about sobriety.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: And it's called Get—it was going to be called Get Free,
32:17
SPEAKER_00: but it's how to drink yourself sober, right?
32:19
SPEAKER_02: Drink something like that.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we just both— Drink Your Way Sober, the science-based method to break free from alcohol.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: And I say it because, you know— It's self-help.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: It's a really important title in that canon.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: And because of how you published it,
32:35
SPEAKER_00: it was a little bit cockblocked because it You're dealing with—we could go on,
32:41
SPEAKER_00: and we have,
32:42
SPEAKER_00: you know, for all the different reasons, but it's a really important book.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: But that book is not about all the mortifying things that you did.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: That book is about different ways to find your way to getting sober.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: So we are different writers.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: I am interested in memoirs because I'm interested in the internal lives of individuals.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: It's like the reason that I read books.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: It's the reason—like,
33:05
SPEAKER_00: fiction is very good for this— I'm not a huge memoir writer,
33:09
SPEAKER_00: in part because I think a lot of—I mean, I'm sorry, reader.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: In part because I think the genre is glutted with a bunch of crap.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: Our friend Megan Daum is one of the best.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the absolute top, like, Mount Rushmore.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: She's amazing.
33:25
SPEAKER_02: Her writing about dogs is so profound.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: She— Let's not embarrass her because I think she might actually be on this
33:34
SPEAKER_00: and she's going to be like hiding her face even though she's not in public.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: She is a very, very special writer and she has helped both of us, I know.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, not just as a friend, but like as a like, I read her to get better kind of thing.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: I think like a lot of our friends are great writers.
33:57
SPEAKER_02: You're a great writer.
33:58
SPEAKER_02: Megan's a great writer.
33:58
SPEAKER_02: Caitlin Flanagan.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh God, so good.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: As an essayist, like she can't write a fucking lead like nobody else.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: And Kat, Kat Rosenfield.
34:08
SPEAKER_02: Kat's great, Kat's great.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: So I see Kat in the vein of Caitlin and, sorry, somebody's trying to calm me, fuck off.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: And that's my ringtone.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: So Caitlin, I think is like, I think she's the queen of like, Zappy, profound essays.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, she's just like super, super good.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: And Nancy, my girl Nancy, she's an amazing long-form writer.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: Like she's an underrated,
34:43
SPEAKER_00: she has like a sensuous way of writing that I can't quite describe,
34:47
SPEAKER_00: but it reminds me a little bit of like Mary Gateskill or something.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk now about the writers, our friends who were terrible writers.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Jessie.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: Jessie.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: Jessie.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: I invited Jesse to my party in New York and he never RSVP'd and he never responded
35:04
SPEAKER_00: and he never was like, oh, hey, Sarah, thanks.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: I know we don't know each other, but it was really nice of you to include me in this.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: Just flat out ghosted.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: Terrible person.
35:13
SPEAKER_02: Terrible writer.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: He's been on...
35:17
SPEAKER_02: You know, he's been working on his book for now 15 or 16 years.
35:22
SPEAKER_02: And our books had the same deadline.
35:25
SPEAKER_02: You know, my book has been like literally the same deadline.
35:27
SPEAKER_02: My book has been out for a year.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: She just turned this in.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: So you know that I listen to you.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: So I'm a Blocked and Reported fangirl and have been for years.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: And I listen to y'all.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: And I actually am always on Jesse's side on that because,
35:41
SPEAKER_00: you know, it took me eight years to finish this book.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: And so I feel so hard for him.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: And he's done what I've done in the past, which is to go in public and say, I'm done.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: And then a year later, I have to be like, actually, I was lying.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: I have to keep working on it.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: So I feel so much for him.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: But can we talk about one of my favorite people that we have in common, which is Andy Mills?
36:02
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
36:03
SPEAKER_02: Although I'm not at Andy now because I had to hire a new dog sitter.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: Are you kidding me?
36:08
SPEAKER_00: I wish.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, he's dead to me now.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: He helped me not pass out at my party, though.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: He's just such a—I don't know.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: I just think he's a special breed of man.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: He's a good dog sitter.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: He was a good dog sitter.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's go.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: Wait, let's go.
36:28
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so you—
36:32
SPEAKER_02: You're very frank in the book.
36:33
SPEAKER_02: You write
36:34
SPEAKER_00: about that.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: So I want to say one thing about that.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: I want to say one thing about that real quick.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: My mother is a therapist.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: And when I was growing up, she was training to be a therapist.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: And so she would come home from her workshops or whatever with her daughter
36:46
SPEAKER_00: that was like,
36:47
SPEAKER_00: missed her like crazy when I was young enough to be like, mommy, mommy.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: Because then later I was like, fuck off, lady.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to go drink booze.
36:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, why'd you leave?
36:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, like I turned on her.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: Like when I'm writing my book, I am thinking like, you know, my parents are going to read this.
37:27
SPEAKER_02: Although I think my mom read it and then went through with a Sharpie and redacted it
37:31
SPEAKER_02: and gave a redacted copy to my dad.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm not kidding about that.
37:35
SPEAKER_02: But that is one of the things you think about,
37:38
SPEAKER_02: particularly when you're writing about mistakes you made.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: And I always had in the back of my head,
37:44
SPEAKER_02: like, I don't want my parents to think like that this is their fault, you know?
37:50
SPEAKER_02: And, and,
37:51
SPEAKER_02: You having that relationship with your mom where you're already talking
37:55
SPEAKER_02: about this stuff,
37:57
SPEAKER_02: that sort of gives me a clearer picture of why you would feel comfortable writing
38:03
SPEAKER_02: about these things in a book that your mom's going to read.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: And blackout was hard for us.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: And it was hard for us because my mother was going through a lot
38:13
SPEAKER_00: of guilt feelings around, I should have been there.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: I let you down.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: And I had to argue with my mom.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I had to be like, mom, look at me.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: Do you like me?
38:22
SPEAKER_00: And she's like, of course I like you.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, then I think you did okay.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: And she's like, but, but, but, but.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: And I think...
38:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: So the idea that I caused it or anything like that.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: So that was really tough, but my mom went through that.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: She was very brave about it, I must say.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: She was like, write anything you want, I can take it.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: But she was privately terrified.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: She was still a working therapist.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: And then I think she saw that the book was so helpful to people and it's used by
39:14
SPEAKER_00: a lot of therapists because it is very common for people,
39:17
SPEAKER_00: especially young women, to come in and say, I drink too much.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm having sex with random men that I don't really like.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't like this about me.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: I hate myself.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: I can't stop.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to go to AA.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: That was my data set.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, and meanwhile, you're watching that person sort of endanger themselves.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: I was living in New York City.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: I was a blackout drinker.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: I was coming to places where it was like, how did I get here?
39:39
SPEAKER_00: What did I do?
39:39
SPEAKER_00: I entrusted my life to the cabbies and the bodega owners and the cops of New York.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: I was just back in New York City and I always take yellow cabs, Yes.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: It was so poignant to see their protective urge come out in this obnoxious,
40:24
SPEAKER_00: lost, drunk person in their backseat.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, so anyway, that's why I'm so comfortable disclosing it.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: Now, I will say about this particular book,
40:36
SPEAKER_00: one of the reasons it took me eight years was that the married man is someone
40:40
SPEAKER_00: that I loved and in a different way still love deeply.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: And I did not want to hurt him or his family.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: And I promised myself I would never write about that.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: And so I took six years to basically give up that promise to myself.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: And it was because I was broke.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know how I was going to make it through.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: I kept trying to write around it.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: The material wasn't good enough.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, people would say, like, it seems like there's something missing here.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, what were you doing from the ages of 38 to 40?
41:09
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, oh, just writing a book.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: It's like, really?
41:11
SPEAKER_00: And...
41:14
SPEAKER_00: I think we needed that in there and it took me six years.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: He had children, has children, and I was vowed that I would never hurt them.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: And I think I saw a picture of the oldest, or maybe it was even the young, I can't remember.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I saw a picture of somebody in college, no, it's oldest, in college.
41:34
SPEAKER_02: And you were like, it's time.
41:35
SPEAKER_02: I was like, they're not kids.
41:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: Has he read the book?
41:40
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Any thoughts?
41:45
SPEAKER_00: I'll bet that was a tough day in his life.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: Has his wife read it?
41:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: I'll bet that was an even tougher day in her life.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:54
SPEAKER_02: I think it was, yeah.
41:57
SPEAKER_00: It was calming to me because I am somebody that shares pages.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: I want to know what other people think so that I can have a chance
42:05
SPEAKER_00: to potentially—it doesn't mean I will change what you want me to change.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: Our friend circle knows this.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: Can you change this?
42:32
SPEAKER_00: And so that was really helpful.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: I would not have been able to do that myself.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: And when I heard that she had read it, it was a huge relief to me.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, I think in the weirdest way, it was a huge relief to her.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying it wasn't incredibly painful.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: But the story mapped onto what she had been told.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: So there was a little bit of a like, okay, this is actually what happened.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: It's not like, okay,
42:56
SPEAKER_00: I read this story and it's totally different than what y'all told me back then.
43:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: So that was terrible.
43:04
SPEAKER_02: Can I psychoanalyze you for a moment?
43:08
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
43:09
SPEAKER_02: Based on my reading of this book,
43:12
SPEAKER_02: You seem like one of these people who really seeks perfection in a relationship.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: Like you want intellectual stimulation.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: You want a conversation partner who sets your brain on fire.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: You want passion.
43:26
SPEAKER_02: You want hot sex.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: You want companionship.
43:31
SPEAKER_02: You want a partner.
43:32
SPEAKER_02: And you're not going to settle for less.
43:37
SPEAKER_02: And because that's very hard to find.
43:40
SPEAKER_02: Maybe impossible to find.
43:42
SPEAKER_02: And because relationships shift and morph with time,
43:47
SPEAKER_02: you end up with these unavailable men who can be that but can't be that with you.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to say it differently.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: And I think you're really on to something here.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: And I want to keep going because this is good work.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't even have to pay you for this.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: I end up with these men that can do that, but they can't do it in a sustained way.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: And And I've always wondered,
44:12
SPEAKER_00: and this is something that I don't even address in the book
44:14
SPEAKER_00: and I don't even know how to answer it,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: but like that married guy,
44:17
SPEAKER_00: could he do that with me because he had a steady relationship on the other side
44:20
SPEAKER_00: of town?
44:21
SPEAKER_02: Probably.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: I mean...
44:23
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
44:23
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
44:24
SPEAKER_02: I think that what you were...
44:26
SPEAKER_02: Seeking is high, high, high, high.
44:30
SPEAKER_02: Maybe the high that you no longer get because you're sober.
44:34
SPEAKER_02: You're seeking that like passion of new love.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: But the problem is that that in every relationship fades away.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the part that you are like,
44:48
SPEAKER_02: you're seeking, you're seeking, you want fireworks.
44:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: But here's the problem.
44:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes, but Katie, everybody wants fireworks.
44:55
SPEAKER_00: Everybody does.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: And I don't, if I were leaving the guys, then I would say, you're right, I have an issue.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: I only want fireworks.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: Right.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm not the one leaving.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: They're the ones leaving.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: But for choosing
45:11
SPEAKER_02: unavailable men.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: Unavailable for what?
45:14
SPEAKER_00: Unavailable for deep conversation?
45:17
SPEAKER_02: No, unavailable for long-term marriage.
45:22
SPEAKER_02: Cohabiting.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: But every one of them married.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: They all end up married.
45:28
SPEAKER_02: Well, right.
45:29
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, one of them was already married.
45:32
SPEAKER_02: One has been married several times, it sounds like.
45:37
SPEAKER_02: And the other was so out of your age range that probably he was never going to end up with you.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: But what I'm saying is they were available for marriage and they were available
45:51
SPEAKER_00: for partnerships, but not with me.
45:53
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't understand.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: I've been trying to figure out why that is because each of them,
45:59
SPEAKER_00: if they were to be grilled by you, I think would tell you, I loved loving Sarah.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: I love Sarah.
46:05
SPEAKER_00: She is emotionally difficult and volatile, but she's a fucking babe and I love her so deeply.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: I can't be with her.
46:13
SPEAKER_02: And I'm wondering why?
46:14
SPEAKER_02: Why is that?
46:15
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not the only— Maybe it's because you're fireworks and
46:19
SPEAKER_02: because that's not—fireworks is not sustainable in any relationship.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's it.
46:26
SPEAKER_00: So do you remember that part where the married man says to me,
46:29
SPEAKER_00: do you know what men want in a relationship?
46:31
SPEAKER_00: And I say, what?
46:32
SPEAKER_00: Because they want things to be easy.
46:34
SPEAKER_02: And I was like— You're not easy, yeah.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: I was heartbroken.
46:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: Because I was like, that's the opposite of me.
46:41
SPEAKER_00: And I'm— I always called myself low-maintenance.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: I understood low-maintenance would be like I take a long time in the bathroom.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: I do my hair all the time.
46:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't bathe every day, but I don't shower.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: I shower every five days.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: My hair is super dirty right now.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: I didn't do my makeup.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: I've been having this bindi, this side bindi on my side since my book event in Dallas.
47:04
SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was low-maintenance,
47:06
SPEAKER_00: that you would just pick clothes up off the ground and wear them.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: And it turns out high maintenance is like, I've got to talk to you and process our
47:14
SPEAKER_02: feelings.
47:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you have lesbian behavior.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: I have major lesbian behavior.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: And it would be fine if I were attracted to men.
47:23
SPEAKER_00: Like I date this one guy who's like, I'll talk to you about your feelings all day long.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, great, let's do it.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: Let's go and do it.
47:30
SPEAKER_00: We snuggle on the couch.
47:31
SPEAKER_00: He makes dinner for me because I don't cook.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm a weird combination of female and male, right?
47:36
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm,
47:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm super,
47:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm almost like the worst versions of female in the sense of like,
47:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't cook, I don't clean.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: I want to talk to you and process things all the time.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
47:48
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: And I want to talk about your feelings.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: And that is the worst version.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: It's the worst.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: And so they love me, but they get exhausted by me.
47:58
SPEAKER_00: Like I was just having dinner with my brother last night and he like,
48:00
SPEAKER_00: he was just like,
48:01
SPEAKER_00: Jesus Christ,
48:02
SPEAKER_00: it's just so,
48:04
SPEAKER_00: You don't let anything slide,
48:06
SPEAKER_00: you know, like I notice everything, that drives them crazy too.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: So this idea that men want things to be easy,
48:14
SPEAKER_00: I think is so depressing because I'm like,
48:16
SPEAKER_00: why would you,
48:18
SPEAKER_00: like if I just said out of my career,
48:19
SPEAKER_00: like I just want things to be easy, I'd have such a different career, you know?
48:22
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so you have your self-awareness.
48:26
SPEAKER_02: But can I say one
48:27
SPEAKER_00: more thing?
48:27
SPEAKER_00: Can I say one more thing?
48:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually super easygoing when it's not about emotional stuff.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: Like I am a chill.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't get angry.
48:35
SPEAKER_00: I forgive fucking everything.
48:40
SPEAKER_00: My friend calls me a benefit of the doubt giving motherfucker.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: Like I am so sweet.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: The guy I was with the other day was like, you're just a basket of sweetness.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I am,
48:49
SPEAKER_00: but also like, Envy and, you know, everything, but like I am a very sweet person.
48:55
SPEAKER_00: So I just,
48:56
SPEAKER_00: I have a weird complexion of behaviors that make it really hard for men to be
49:03
SPEAKER_00: that intense with me in a sustained way.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: They want it, but they can't sustain it.
49:09
SPEAKER_02: You're a very good other woman.
49:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it turns out I am.
49:14
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so you're self-aware.
49:15
SPEAKER_02: You know this about yourself.
49:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Katie, that hurt a little bit.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: I know you didn't mean it to hurt, but it's so true.
49:21
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that you're a good other woman?
49:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you are.
49:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
49:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
49:25
SPEAKER_02: No, it's okay, but like it's almost...
49:29
SPEAKER_00: Your audience is going to see...
49:31
SPEAKER_00: Vintage Sarah Heppola because I'm like gonna start crying a little bit because
49:35
SPEAKER_00: that was so true.
49:37
SPEAKER_02: Okay, but here's the thing.
49:38
SPEAKER_02: So you're self-aware of this.
49:40
SPEAKER_02: The problem is that this doesn't align with what you,
49:44
SPEAKER_02: your personality doesn't align with your wants.
49:48
SPEAKER_02: You want the traditional,
49:50
SPEAKER_02: you want the marriage,
49:51
SPEAKER_02: you want the house,
49:52
SPEAKER_02: you want the husband,
49:53
SPEAKER_02: you want the long-term partnership,
49:55
SPEAKER_02: but your specific combination,
49:56
SPEAKER_02: which is a fascinating and I find very appealing combination,
50:03
SPEAKER_02: Go back 20 years ago, I would have been trying to turn you gay.
50:05
SPEAKER_01: It could have worked, Katie.
50:08
SPEAKER_02: It could have worked.
50:09
SPEAKER_02: I had a pretty good record.
50:13
SPEAKER_02: But you are somewhere.
50:13
SPEAKER_02: You know that there's this misalignment with what you are and what you want.
50:20
SPEAKER_02: Can you change those things about yourself?
50:22
SPEAKER_02: Or do you lower your standard?
50:26
SPEAKER_02: Are you still seeking...
50:28
SPEAKER_02: Seeking out, kids are probably off the table, at least biological kids at this point.
50:33
SPEAKER_02: Stepmom, maybe.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: I think I would make,
50:35
SPEAKER_00: first of all,
50:35
SPEAKER_00: I think I would make a kick-ass stepmom because I used to work in daycare and like
50:42
SPEAKER_00: the only job I had growing up was being a babysitter and stealing their booze
50:45
SPEAKER_00: and trying on their clothes.
50:49
SPEAKER_00: But I'm great with kids.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm really, really great with kids.
50:52
SPEAKER_02: I bet you're really good with teenagers, too.
50:54
SPEAKER_02: Oh, God.
50:55
SPEAKER_02: Teenagers would actually call you when they're at the party and they need the ride
50:59
SPEAKER_00: home.
51:00
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: I would be the best stepmom
51:04
SPEAKER_02: to a teenager.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: I would love to adopt,
51:07
SPEAKER_00: but I actually think,
51:09
SPEAKER_00: and this is a story for another time,
51:10
SPEAKER_00: but I do think adoption is so morally fraught that I am a little bit nervous
51:16
SPEAKER_00: about it.
51:18
SPEAKER_00: I've heard...
51:19
SPEAKER_00: Personal essays at Salon,
51:21
SPEAKER_00: I heard a lot of stories from kids that were from other countries,
51:24
SPEAKER_00: kind of uprooted, feeling culturally dislocated.
51:28
SPEAKER_00: I think it's still worth loving children that need loving homes,
51:35
SPEAKER_00: but I'm just saying, I don't know.
51:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: The thing is, is everybody wants to make it easy.
51:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh, oh, you didn't have a kid?
51:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, just go do IVF.
51:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's $100,000 and it doesn't always work.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, just go adopt.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, that's actually morally fraught.
51:51
SPEAKER_00: I had an argument with somebody recently about surrogacy where
51:57
SPEAKER_00: just don't think I can.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: Unless it was somebody that was like a friend of mine that was like,
52:04
SPEAKER_00: I had a friend that was like,
52:05
SPEAKER_00: I love being pregnant so much, I would love to have your baby.
52:07
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, yeah, sure.
52:09
SPEAKER_02: You can run out of your birth.
52:11
SPEAKER_02: In either case,
52:11
SPEAKER_02: you're still,
52:12
SPEAKER_02: let's say that this does happen,
52:14
SPEAKER_02: you're still signing yourself up to be a single parent at this point.
52:17
SPEAKER_02: So incredibly difficult.
52:19
SPEAKER_02: Right.
52:19
SPEAKER_00: I've never had the money.
52:20
SPEAKER_00: I've never had the money.
52:21
SPEAKER_00: It's never been on the table.
52:23
SPEAKER_00: I am starting to make money because of the book, you know, I mean, but book money, come on.
52:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's enough to support me, but not two people.
52:31
SPEAKER_00: When you're alone, you have to pay double.
52:35
SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean,
52:35
SPEAKER_00: because I'm going to have to,
52:36
SPEAKER_00: like, if I support us, I've got to pay for somebody to take care of the kid.
52:41
SPEAKER_00: Like, it's just single motherhood I don't think is a good, I don't come from family money.
52:45
SPEAKER_00: It's just, I don't, I just don't think that's a good idea.
52:47
SPEAKER_02: That would be extremely tough, yeah.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think it would be great for me to date somebody that already had kids.
52:53
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
52:53
SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
52:54
SPEAKER_00: what's interesting that I've found in Dallas,
52:56
SPEAKER_00: which is a more conservative city,
52:59
SPEAKER_00: and then people will go, go to LA or go to New York.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, no, those are terrible places to date.
53:03
SPEAKER_01: Right.
53:04
SPEAKER_00: But in Dallas,
53:05
SPEAKER_00: what I've noticed is that people that are divorced want
53:07
SPEAKER_00: to date other divorced people.
53:08
SPEAKER_02: Oh, interesting.
53:09
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
53:10
SPEAKER_02: Somebody in the comments says you will meet a wonderful man who is widowed
53:13
SPEAKER_02: or helpfully divorced and his children will love you.
53:16
SPEAKER_02: I hope that's true.
53:18
SPEAKER_02: I think widow.
53:21
SPEAKER_02: I'm telling you, I would be the best
53:27
SPEAKER_00: widower's wife.
53:29
SPEAKER_00: Is that how you say it?
53:30
SPEAKER_00: Because I would love that person's first wife and we'd talk about her
53:35
SPEAKER_00: and I would never feel threatened.
53:36
SPEAKER_00: I would be like, Be all woo-woo and like bring her into this.
53:40
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about her.
53:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm so, I think I've actually always,
53:45
SPEAKER_00: I remember Leslie Jameson, who we haven't mentioned, but she's a great essayist.
53:49
SPEAKER_00: And she married a widower.
53:52
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I got to do that.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: I got to get me one of those.
53:56
SPEAKER_02: I totally see that.
53:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that would work really well for you.
53:59
SPEAKER_02: You know,
53:59
SPEAKER_02: we have personals and we've actually had a little bit of success for the Blocked
54:05
SPEAKER_02: and Reported personals.
54:06
SPEAKER_02: I think you should submit one
54:09
SPEAKER_00: next year.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of interest in my inbox right now.
54:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you do.
54:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: I did a conversation on the sort of Dallas version of Fresh Air,
54:21
SPEAKER_00: which goes out to a lot of different cities.
54:23
SPEAKER_00: It's an NPR show.
54:23
SPEAKER_00: And I talked a lot about younger men.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: And I was like getting all these messages that were like,
54:30
SPEAKER_00: hi, I'm a 25-year-old in Dubuque, Iowa.
54:33
SPEAKER_00: And I heard your voice and I just think that there is something between us.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, what is going on?
54:39
SPEAKER_02: Okay, how much of an impact do you think your writing has on your personal relationships?
54:47
SPEAKER_02: Do people, you know, like something will, like I'm not a memoirist.
54:52
SPEAKER_02: I love writing personal essays, but I'm not a memoirist.
54:55
SPEAKER_02: And I will have people in my life say to me, Don't post this.
55:01
SPEAKER_02: Don't tweet this.
55:02
SPEAKER_02: Don't talk about this.
55:03
SPEAKER_02: Like they think I'm going to steal all of their stories, which I might if they're good enough.
55:09
SPEAKER_02: How much do you think your openness on the page impacts your relationships?
55:14
SPEAKER_00: Probably more than I want to admit.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: I think that there is a natural suspicion when you first meet me that I'm trolling for material.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: I think I have to earn the trust and respect of people that spend time with me so
55:30
SPEAKER_00: that they can learn that I'm actually trolling for closeness and relationship
55:35
SPEAKER_00: and I write about it when it doesn't work out the way that I want it to.
55:40
SPEAKER_00: Or if I do write about it, I will share it with you.
55:42
SPEAKER_00: I will talk to you about it.
55:44
SPEAKER_00: I will not sneak attack.
55:46
SPEAKER_00: I've been doing this now 30 years.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, whether it's journalism or like talking on the pod or You know how it is.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, you have to be careful.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: People tell you things in confidence and then it comes up and you want to say it.
56:00
SPEAKER_00: But it's like,
56:02
SPEAKER_00: can you couch it in a, oh,
56:04
SPEAKER_00: a friend told me or are you going to implicate somebody and then they're going
56:07
SPEAKER_00: to be mad at you?
56:09
SPEAKER_00: And that's really, really tough because I am very open.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean everybody else is that open.
56:16
SPEAKER_00: And so that is one of the things I have to deal with is that I drag other people
56:20
SPEAKER_00: into the spotlight.
56:21
SPEAKER_00: With Blackout, it was my family and that was really hard on me.
56:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I just felt so guilty, but we got through it.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: With this one,
56:29
SPEAKER_00: it's these guys and none of them,
56:32
SPEAKER_00: none of them got,
56:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
56:34
SPEAKER_00: hey, a consent form that said, do you consent to be in Sarah Heppola's next memoir?
56:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
56:40
SPEAKER_00: There were conversations with each of them where they expressed varying degrees
56:45
SPEAKER_00: of dismay and Or no big deal,
56:48
SPEAKER_00: depending on where we were in the relationship and where they were
56:50
SPEAKER_00: in their own life.
56:51
SPEAKER_00: And those things change.
56:53
SPEAKER_00: And I don't, I think, well, I wouldn't want to speak to them.
56:58
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I do worry that writing about people ruins the relationship.
57:04
SPEAKER_00: And so if I want to keep a relationship, I will have to not write about it.
57:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
57:11
SPEAKER_02: Or, I mean...
57:13
SPEAKER_02: There are maybe ways you could, like, let's say you do marry the widow, the widower.
57:18
SPEAKER_00: I like this hypothetical widower.
57:20
SPEAKER_00: What's his name?
57:21
SPEAKER_01: Is his name Oscar Isaac?
57:25
SPEAKER_02: Just Thomas.
57:27
SPEAKER_02: Oh, Thomas.
57:28
SPEAKER_02: Thomas.
57:29
SPEAKER_02: He, yeah, I think that Thomas is a college professor.
57:34
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm into it.
57:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if it's a cool, like not one of those.
57:37
SPEAKER_02: He's in the sciences.
57:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh, please, please.
57:41
SPEAKER_00: No humanities, no liberal arts.
57:43
SPEAKER_02: And he has a cat.
57:46
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
57:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I want him to be a cat person.
57:49
SPEAKER_00: Hi, honey.
57:50
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so let's talk a bit about Blackouts.
57:55
SPEAKER_02: So Blackout, the book, was a bestseller.
57:59
SPEAKER_02: We got a ton of media attention.
58:02
SPEAKER_02: I remember walking around Seattle listening to you on fresh air.
58:07
SPEAKER_02: Seething with resentment that
58:09
SPEAKER_01: mostly that you were sober and wanted to be.
58:13
SPEAKER_02: Because I will never know, what is it like to have a bestseller?
58:17
SPEAKER_02: Did it change your life?
58:19
SPEAKER_00: It did.
58:21
SPEAKER_00: I just want you to know that I called my cat over here.
58:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you saw me doing that.
58:25
SPEAKER_00: And he complied.
58:26
SPEAKER_00: And this is very unusual.
58:28
SPEAKER_02: Moose, come here.
58:30
SPEAKER_02: Let's see if I can do it.
58:31
SPEAKER_01: Moose.
58:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
58:38
SPEAKER_01: My cat is so cute.
58:40
SPEAKER_00: So my book came out.
58:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, handsome.
58:45
SPEAKER_00: Gosh, he looks like a rock star to me.
58:46
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't he?
58:47
SPEAKER_00: Like the hair and everything.
58:48
SPEAKER_00: It's just like, that's, that's like the bassist in a rock band.
58:53
SPEAKER_02: He sort of looks like.
58:55
SPEAKER_02: Slash.
58:56
SPEAKER_02: Oh, Janet, Janet just came around the corner and said, and whispered, compliment her cat.
59:01
SPEAKER_02: Your cat is beautiful.
59:04
SPEAKER_02: Oh.
59:05
SPEAKER_02: Janet, I had already done it earlier.
59:07
SPEAKER_02: He is.
59:08
SPEAKER_02: He's an attractive cat.
59:09
SPEAKER_00: He's handsome.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: His name is Wallace.
59:12
SPEAKER_00: So I... What were we talking about?
59:16
SPEAKER_00: What is it like to be a bestseller?
59:17
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
59:19
SPEAKER_00: So what happens is that...
59:24
SPEAKER_00: First of all,
59:25
SPEAKER_00: I want to tell you something about the publishing industry
59:27
SPEAKER_00: that I know I've told you, but I want your listeners to know.
59:30
SPEAKER_00: In a lot of ways, bestsellers are made...
59:34
SPEAKER_00: As much as, like, they're created as much as they're, like, discovered.
59:38
SPEAKER_00: What I mean by that is that you have to have a certain amount of push by
59:44
SPEAKER_00: the publisher to get it out to booksellers and all these sort of arms of
59:50
SPEAKER_00: the industry that it doesn't really matter.
59:52
SPEAKER_00: And this is why, like,
59:53
SPEAKER_00: Jordan Peterson can sell two million books and he's still not on
59:56
SPEAKER_00: the New York Times bestseller list.
59:58
SPEAKER_02: It's not an actual...