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Good Reasons for Why You Should Not Ignore Sudan | Weekly Banter · UK Column Radio

0:35
None, 13 million people have been displaced and nobody's
0:43
talking about this. The north of Africa is an area
0:49
of huge geopolitical tension because of Russia and China's
0:55
interests in that part of the world.
0:57
The European Union views it as a NATO for that matter, view it as
1:01
being their southern neighborhood and theirs because
1:05
they still, you know, Roman Empire and all that, although
1:09
really the countries that they're interested in are a bit
1:11
further South than than the Roman Empire got to.
1:14
But but nonetheless, you know, what's going on in Sudan and the
1:20
whole Boko Haram thing in, in Nigeria and whatnot.
1:23
These are this is this is external interference and
1:28
external influence at work. The the Sudanese conflict
1:33
absolutely driven from the West. And so every one of those deaths
1:38
is really our responsibility because as you say, we're not
1:43
paying attention to what our governments are doing and what,
1:46
and the influence operations that they're running and the
1:47
gangs and counter gangs operations that they're running.
1:51
And you know, the, the fact that the Sudan conflict kicked off
1:55
with a vengeance a few weeks ago.
1:58
Well, many people, including myself, think that that was, you
2:01
know, partly deliberately timed to to draw attention away the
2:09
news agenda away from other stuff that's been going on,
2:13
particularly in Gaza and whatnot.
2:14
So, so, you know, I think that it's, it's really unfortunate
2:21
that, that, that the media will not, or ignores so many of the
2:25
conflicts around the world and, and gives a good pretense to, to
2:30
them being, as you say, internal civil war conflicts.
2:34
I mean, I mean, it was the same with Syria, that it was always
2:37
presented as being a civil war and something that that the West
2:40
had nothing whatever to do with, when in fact it was absolutely
2:43
driven by the West and Britain in particular from the from the
2:46
beginning. And, and we've talked, I mean,
2:48
I've talked about this so many times about BBC media action
2:52
operating in Syria from 2004. So, you know, 6-7 years before
2:58
the, the conflict in Syria actually began and, and they
3:02
were absolutely open about the fact that they were there to
3:04
work with opposition groups and opposition leaders and, and try
3:11
to build an opposition in that country.
3:13
So, you know, we operate these, these influence operations of
3:19
these and, and then we pretend that the, the consequences of
3:23
that are not our responsibility. They absolutely are.
3:26
But but the other, the other point I would make here, Jeremy,
3:29
is, you know, if you look at the latest immigration statistics
3:34
into the UK, the, the country that's at the top of the list is
3:38
Eritrea. And this is, you know, same
3:41
general vicinity. There's, there's, I actually
3:45
know nothing about what's going on in Eritrea or what's driving
3:48
that migration, but you know that.
3:50
So, you know, very commonly we get messages saying, you know,
3:55
why are you covering this kind of stuff?
3:58
Because it's got nothing to do with the United Kingdom.
4:00
And, and my point is it's got everything to do with the United
4:03
Kingdom And, and it influence, you know, it influences our
4:06
daily lives because we're, we're causing these conflicts in, in
4:10
North Africa or in this hill or in the Horn of Africa or
4:13
wherever it is. And as a result, migrants come
4:17
here. So this, this not only is our,
4:19
our tax dollars being spent on killing people in Africa, but
4:24
then our talk, our tax dollars are directly going into the
4:27
operation to traffic people into this country, which is the thing
4:31
that most people are complaining about.
4:33
And it's, and I, I can't quite work out the disconnect.
4:36
But there, there we need to, we need to try to understand how
4:40
these, how these operations work and the consequences that it has
4:44
not only for the fact that we don't have money to spend on our
4:47
own country, but that we have extra people coming into our
4:50
country that that more tax money then has to be spent on.
4:54
So you know, this, this is something that's really critical
4:58
for people to get to grips with. Well, like with anywhere, the
5:02
reality one is confronted with when you are in a particular
5:06
place requires some scratching away of what you're immediately
5:13
presented with. I, I certainly find that to be
5:15
the case in Rwanda. I, I worked in Rwanda a bit in,
5:21
in a military context, supposedly, you know, under the
5:27
auspices of sort of defence engagement and providing
5:32
training. But it was a it was a very, very
5:34
interesting insight into which other countries were seeking, or
5:40
rather perhaps scrapping for influence in Rwanda.
5:45
But to be able to be there and see how the recent history plays
5:51
itself out and how from Paul Kagame downwards the the
5:58
situation was being controlled was was extremely interesting.
6:01
So Rwanda in fact, it is notable certainly in comparison with its
6:07
immediate neighbors by the appearance of the place when
6:12
when you go there with the one thing that strikes you.
6:15
And this is, this is not to suggest that all African
6:20
countries are are in a terrible state, but but a lot because of
6:24
actually in large part because of the increase in plastic being
6:28
absolutely everywhere. A lot of African countries and
6:31
particularly cities are really invested with an inability to be
6:35
able to dispose effectively of plastic packaging, plastic bags,
6:38
plastic bottles, everything. It's made such a difference.
6:40
Rwanda is the exception to that because it it's very, very neat
6:44
and tidy. And it turns out that there is
6:46
a, a national scheme, which I assume is still in place.
6:50
I think it was every Saturday, basically the entire country has
6:53
to tip out and do do a sort of litter sweep.
6:56
Now in some senses I'm all in favour of that.
6:59
If, if everybody thinks that that's a good idea and that's
7:01
what they want to be doing. The reality is slightly
7:04
different. I think the consequences of not
7:06
doing it are probably not to be countenanced by by most people.
7:12
So the point is that Rwanda is able to present itself as this
7:16
stable, clean, well run country. You know, no, no problems here,
7:22
no issue. Don't look further back than X
7:27
point in time, which I think is very interesting.
7:30
So to, to get there and and see that does distract people from
7:35
the sorts of concerns that we might be raising during a
7:38
discussion like this. I think the, how that compares
7:43
with Sudan, I mean, it's, it's different in the way that it
7:48
gets expressed. But I think that the, the
7:51
conflict in Sudan, which let's face it, it is totally
7:56
engineered. And if you go back to the point,
7:59
well, actually well before under British administration, well
8:05
before there was the suggestion that obviously the map has
8:10
changed or the, the lines on the map have changed.
8:12
But but what became Sudan, there was terrific resistance to that
8:18
being a good idea from those in the colonial administration who
8:22
actually knew the people and knew the risks.
8:25
And yet those voices were ignored.
8:27
And look what's happened. But the way that that's reported
8:30
on, which is the sort of forever conflict that occasionally gets
8:36
stirred up into more or or, you know, something slightly
8:41
different. It seems to me that the way that
8:43
gets reported is deliberately bland and, you know, never
8:51
really gets to the heart of the issue in order that it doesn't
8:54
do exactly what Mike's describing, is it?
8:56
It doesn't enable people in the main to make the link between
9:00
what is happening there and what is happening actually anywhere
9:04
else. I mean, for example, the links
9:05
between United Arab Emirates and what's going on in Sudan or the
9:11
situation with regard to private military contractors from other
9:15
countries and how they might be involved.
9:17
There are so many other points of convergence on Sudan, but the
9:22
way in which it's described, I think first of all, that serves
9:25
the purpose of maintaining the belief that for lots of lives to
9:32
be lost in some far off place doesn't really matter and that
9:37
that is totally reinforced by the United Nations.
9:41
A very, very interesting. I think I might have referred to
9:43
this before. I certainly covered it on a a
9:45
news report, but I found footage of somebody called Kieran
9:49
Prendergast who was working for the United Nations.
9:52
I forget exactly what his position was, but he was, he, he
9:55
held a senior post in the United Nations and talking specifically
9:59
about Sudan. This was this was captured for a
10:01
documentary that was produced some years ago.
10:04
He said he he absolutely admitted with no, with no sense
10:09
of sort of apparent remorse, but he said when we say we care, we
10:15
don't really it's just talk when they're talking about stopping
10:18
the war in Sudan or, you know, saving lives or this, that and
10:21
the other they it, it is absolutely part of a cycle of
10:25
communications that they know will not solve the problem.
10:30
And that that is absolutely astonishing to have somebody
10:34
who's held that position to declare outright.
10:38
But but so, so I think all of this is, is very much joined
10:42
together and the way in which all of these conflicts affect
10:46
again, the relationships that other countries have with
10:48
Africa. Because I think, you know,
10:49
having having mentioned defence diplomacy, the way that that's
10:53
tied in with sort of economic influence and all the rest of
10:58
them, that's something we can come back to.
10:59
But but it's just, sorry, I don't want to go on too much in
11:01
this answer and I've strung it out a bit.
11:03
But I think this does pertain to what Mike's talking about with
11:05
regard to, you know, Eritrea, what you're talking about with,
11:09
with Sudan and the access to the to the sea and you know, all of
11:12
that sort of stuff. It's, I mean, the whole thing
11:14
is, is very, very much inter interlinked.
11:17
So you mentioned Charles, the UAE, as far as I know, the UAE
11:22
has been supplying arms, for example, to is it the, is it the
11:27
RSF, RSF and and then you have the Wagner Group from Russia
11:34
supplying, I think the same group, but then the Kremlin
11:39
officially supports the other group.
11:42
All right, So now you have this, this perception of Russia
11:45
playing both sides. And then you and then you
11:49
realize that China is attempting to expand the Belt and Rd.
11:55
initiative, which is an amazing thing because it's connecting so
11:58
many countries together and it's certainly attempting to connect
12:01
Sudan to it. But now Washington most likely
12:06
has an issue with that and will do whatever it can to stop that
12:09
connection happening. Yeah, very much so.
12:12
I, I, I do think it's, it's a fascinating thing to observe the
12:16
different approaches from the different countries.
12:18
OK, what one what 1 is able to see without having access to the
12:23
types of discussions that are going on or indeed the supposed
12:27
intelligence that any of these plans or processes are based on
12:31
makes it a bit difficult to comment.
12:34
But, but again, just going back to my own experiences, what what
12:37
I was found very interesting was the the way in which each nation
12:41
thought that they understood Africa or Africans.
12:45
And indeed the idea that one country could broadly be taken
12:49
to be similar to another, which you might say in some respects
12:53
could be the truth, but but in others absolutely not at all.
12:56
And so, so I think still today, even though one might say that
13:01
the plans are working because the, the, the destabilisation of
13:06
African nations, either within or between one another is such
13:11
that it allows those with other interests to swoop and take from
13:18
those places what they will. And indeed have the, the, the
13:22
knock on effects in in other places, which again, very much
13:26
plays into the ceding of control for all, all manner of reasons.
13:32
But, but I, for all that, I I don't think that there is AII
13:39
think very few countries have a have a proper understanding of
13:44
how African countries do actually work, specifically how,
13:48
how African people do work. We, I know we've, we've talked
13:51
about this a little bit before. We've talked about it in
13:53
relation to other countries, but as to whether somebody who is
13:57
from a different part of the world is ever really allowed to
14:00
fully understand what is going on.
14:03
So there, So there is. Because, you know, let's face
14:06
it, like all parts of the world, there was conflict in Africa
14:10
before Westerners or Chinese or anyone else took it upon
14:15
themselves to decide to start meddling, just as there was
14:19
anywhere that That's not to say that what is happening now is
14:25
still by and large, the at the behest of African powers.
14:31
I think by and large, it's not. It's just finding, it's finding
14:36
those overlapping interests and exactly like you say, you know,
14:40
you pick your, you pick your side or sides in order to
14:45
enhance or continue to manipulate that particular
14:48
situation. Which side would you pick?
14:55
Well, as who? What do you mean if I was?
14:57
If you said you pick your sides. Yeah, sorry.
15:00
What I mean is you as a as a parasite.
15:03
So whether you're a corporation or a, you know, a state, a
15:10
government that is basically also a corporation, certainly in
15:14
the way it's influenced and the outcomes, the types of outcome
15:18
that are being pursued. And actually, let let, OK, let's
15:20
take, let's take Somalia as a very, very good example.
15:25
You know, in that region, Horn of Africa, close to Sudan,
15:30
bordering Ethiopia, bordering Eritrea and, and of course with
15:34
Djibouti there, which is all of these places have, have
15:37
incredible significance due to their geography, but also due to
15:41
their resources. The, the, the British have taken
15:45
the view, OK, historic involvement in that region in,
15:48
in, in some ways in all of those countries, but specifically
15:52
Somaliland. Well, sorry Somalia, but
15:55
Somaliland, the the northernmost of the three parts of Somalia
16:01
and and the British there have absolutely played both sides in
16:06
that. There's been a sort of
16:08
sovereignty debate over Somaliland, which wants to
16:12
regard itself as being independent from Somalia.
16:16
Now Somalia is very much supported by the British state
16:19
through the embassy in Mogadishu, through the funding
16:23
of this and the other through the training of Somali forces.
16:27
There are all sorts of ways in which this is playing out.
16:29
But at the same time, the port of Berbara, which is in
16:33
Somaliland has absolutely also been sponsored by the British,
16:39
both directly and indirectly. And the consequence of this is,
16:43
is enormous tension between Somaliland and the, the sort of
16:50
wider entity of Somali ER, and that is such a good example.
16:55
And, and the way in which there are sort of shared goals and and
17:01
joint enterprise. The, the port of Berbara, which
17:04
is very, very significant because it now allows Ethiopia
17:08
to have access to coastline that it by by losing that ground that
17:12
has become Somaliland or indeed, well, actually in timeline,
17:18
Eritrea that, that, that coast, Ethiopia has no coast.
17:20
So they've, they've effectively got a deal in recognising the
17:23
sovereignty of Somaliland. They are now able to access that
17:26
coastline via the port of Berbra.
17:29
Now the port of Berbra is controlled by DP World, which is
17:33
basically a United Arab Emirates based company, but there is also
17:38
investment from the British government under a very easy
17:43
sort of cloak to to look through.
17:45
But nonetheless, that's how that's been done.
17:48
And also DP World, which is expanding all over the place, is
17:51
now controlling the Freeport in the River Thames.
17:54
So, so this all of this is absolutely directly linked, but
17:59
it but the point of it that I will get to with apologies, it's
18:03
taken quite so long is the the maintenance of conflict.
18:07
So the funding of both sides, Somalia and Somaliland has
18:12
absolutely been done by the British administration and they
18:15
give no regard to the very obvious consequences of what it
18:19
is. In fact, they they won't really
18:21
even admit that by doing this there and that there that they
18:25
are obviously creating a system of conflict, but one that reaps
18:30
very nice dividends for those investing in the financial side
18:35
of of all of those engagements. They won't.
18:37
They won't admit publicly, you mean.
18:39
They won't. I mean they, I, I, I dealt.
18:43
It was a while back, I can't remember exactly how the
18:45
communications went, but the, the foreign, the embassy in
18:50
Mogadishu, I, I asked a direct question of them about the
18:57
funding of sorry, I actually can't quite remember what it
19:00
was. Basically they, they, they just,
19:02
they wouldn't go any further. They wouldn't comment on it.
19:04
So there's, there's, there's no, there's absolutely no overt
19:09
admission of, of what they're what they're doing.
19:13
You were talking about Britain. Do you think British involvement
19:16
in Sudan is equally pervasive? I think perhaps less so
19:29
directly, indirectly, quite probably I, I, I don't think I
19:37
can substantiate that with any specific evidence.
19:42
But, but what I would say is that there are, I think very few
19:49
examples of places that have been under British control
19:55
throughout history that do not in some way now have, have
20:01
British influence expressed in some way.
20:04
I mean, So what I mean is if from, you know, going back a lot
20:08
of years there have been British interests in Sudan, to suggest
20:12
that that would have just stopped because there's other
20:14
stuff going on there, I think would be extremely unlikely.
20:19
But but no to more than that. I don't know.
20:22
But it's, it's a very, very good question.
20:25
And yeah, something worth looking into, actually, yeah.
20:30
Where do you think people should be looking?
20:33
Well, this is a, this is a very difficult area to get into.
20:37
I mean one of the things that we did was to start looking at
20:43
where Foreign Commonwealth Development Office money is
20:47
going and we discovered that the FCDO publishes spreadsheets
20:55
each. Well, they don't publish them
20:56
each month. Occasionally they will publish a
20:59
batch of spreadsheets which which list all money spent over
21:04
£25,000 on a monthly basis. And they provided, as I say, as
21:10
a spreadsheet, it's it's extremely unhelpful in many ways
21:16
because it's, it's very raw data and, and it's not easy to engage
21:21
with. So we set up a website
21:23
whichyoucanfind@fcdospending.ukcolumn.org where we attempted to provide a
21:31
sort of searchable front end on that data.
21:37
And the first thing that we discovered was that when we
21:41
started looking at the, at the data in the, in the format that
21:44
it's now available in, is that, that although they list amounts
21:50
of money and who that money went to, there's no description of
21:55
what that money was for. But nonetheless, it's still,
22:01
it's still useful in a sense, because you can, for example,
22:04
look at the British Council and, and see how much money has gone
22:07
to that historically and when that money was being spent and
22:11
so on. And that's, that is probably
22:16
the, the 1st place to start. But so, so we need to look at
22:19
who, which, which Western organizations are operational in
22:23
a particular country and then look to see on the FCDO spending
22:27
website how much money has the FCDO put into those companies.
22:32
And then unfortunately, we need to start, we need to go through
22:35
the, the, the Freedom of Information, umm, effort to, to
22:39
try to, to get a handle on, on what money was specifically
22:42
spent on. And of course, in many ways this
22:46
is this is a hiding to nothing because because they will rarely
22:52
explain what the money was for. But even going making that
22:57
effort and going through that process and getting the refusal
23:00
at the end is is useful because, well, you know it.
23:04
It draws people's attention to to why?
23:07
What have they got to hide here? What exactly why are they not
23:09
willing? Because if, if development money
23:12
is being used for development, surely that's something that
23:16
governments would want to be, would, would be proud of, They'd
23:19
want to talk about it. They'd want to say, yeah, we
23:21
spent £25 million helping build the foundation for this bridge.
23:26
No, they were, they spent £25 million funding weapons to, to
23:30
some faction of a, of a paramilitary organization in
23:36
order to maintain destabilization in particular
23:38
country. Of course, they don't want to
23:39
admit to that. So, so they'll, they'll hide
23:41
what the money is going on. So you know that, that to me
23:47
would be the first place to start.
23:49
Uh, you look at where the money is being spent.
23:51
You ask the Foreign Office specifically what was that money
23:54
spent on? You get your refusal and, you
23:58
know, then you start really asking the questions, why are
24:01
you embarrassed about what this money is going to?
24:04
And that's, that's where this needs to happen on a much larger
24:07
scale because, because at this point, almost nobody is, is, is
24:12
looking at this stuff and, and wondering where the money is
24:14
actually going. And, and you know, we, we have
24:17
to keep in mind, we have to always remember that every
24:20
pound, shilling and pence that's spent abroad on these types of
24:23
influence operations and, and insurgencies is money which is
24:28
not being spent in this country to fix potholes or maintain some
24:32
kind of access to proper healthcare.
24:34
So, you know, this is something that we should all be engaged
24:38
with and we should all be interested in.
24:42
The thing is though, what is the logical conclusion?
24:45
Because people like to say, well, leave them with their own
24:48
affairs. But, but, but Jeremy, there are
24:51
no other countries going into other countries and triggering
24:54
wars except for Britain, the United States and the EU, right?
24:57
This, this is the point, right, right, right.
25:01
You don't see South Africa going into Eritrea and, and, and
25:04
funding both sides of a, of a, of, of an insurgency, right?
25:08
It's and, and, and you don't, you know, you don't really see
25:13
if it wasn't for the fact that, that Britain and the EU were
25:17
running their influence operations in, in North Africa,
25:21
you would not see the Wagner Group doing this either, right?
25:24
So, you know, this, this, what we have, what we have here is,
25:28
is the continuation of, of colonialism.
25:34
And, you know, but that's something that we are
25:37
responsible for and other countries don't do this stuff to
25:41
the same degree by any means. So, you know, if, if, if we're
25:46
going to solve the problems of the world, pull Britain out of
25:52
the out of the picture, that that would be the first step and
25:56
then see who's still playing and then try and get them out of the
25:59
picture. But you know, that that we, we
26:02
got to stop. We got to stop this deliberate
26:07
geopolitical game that we play. It's so covert that you don't
26:11
really know where to look. No, no, no, I don't agree.
26:14
I don't agree. I don't think it's so covert
26:16
that we don't know where to look.
26:17
We look we look at the money first and foremost, we look at
26:20
the money. What is what was that pound
26:23
spent on? Ask this question, right.
26:25
So, for example, right, just to give give one example, millions
26:30
and millions, hundreds of millions of pounds were spent on
26:33
the White Helmets in Syria during the Syrian conflict.
26:37
This, this British intelligence construct that that's produced
26:41
these propaganda films of of guys and White Helmets pulling
26:45
babies out from under rubble. This, this was al Qaeda that
26:51
that we were putting money into. But the point is the money
26:55
couldn't go into the Syria, into somebody's bank account with,
26:58
with some kind of accountability.
27:00
This, this money went in as cash.
27:03
Nobody, no, there's never ever been a single account of a
27:07
single penny that was spent on the White Helmets.
27:10
There's no possibility of ever finding out from the British
27:13
government or from anybody else what that money was for that,
27:17
that's where we need to start. We need to start holding our
27:20
government to account for the money that it spends abroad.
27:23
And what specifically was it spent on?
27:25
But that's not, you know, the, the, the mainstream media isn't
27:29
doing that. That's not something that that's
27:31
not something that that the UK column on its own has the
27:34
resources to do. We need, we need people to be
27:38
interested in where their tax money is going and, and helping
27:43
to get the lid off this because it's, you know, the far look at
27:47
the FCDO spending website. Look how much money is being
27:49
spent with, with NGOs, with contractors, with all kinds of
27:54
people and, and start asking questions.
27:56
That's where you start. Are you not perhaps ignoring the
28:03
possibility, Mike, that you have, as Catherine Austin Fitz
28:09
points out, you have black operations where you simply
28:12
don't know where that money is going?
28:14
Charles recently spoke to me on on my show about the Church of
28:18
England and how money gets very interestingly funneled into
28:22
different directions as diversions.
28:23
You start by asking the questions and, and that
28:26
unfortunately the only mechanism we have for that really is is
28:30
Freedom of Information. But you know, it, it, this
28:36
stuff, there is no question that, that the money that's
28:40
being spent by the Foreign Office is a, a large proportion
28:46
of it is going on covert operations and that many of the
28:49
organizations that you'll see listed on the FCO spending
28:53
website are operating as front organizations for that type of
28:58
activity. And, and of course it's, it's
29:01
never easy and we may never get to the bottom of exactly where
29:04
that money's spent on. But, but it's, it's the usual
29:07
thing. If one or two people are asking
29:10
these questions, the government will ignore this.
29:13
If one or 2000 or 10 or 20,000 people are asking these
29:18
questions, it can't be ignored because you can tie up the, the
29:21
organization and Freedom of Information requests very, very
29:24
quickly. What we need is activity at
29:29
scale. And and that's something that
29:31
that, you know, is, is very, very hard to organize because,
29:35
you know, the usual cynicism. I don't want to get into that in
29:38
this conversation, but but that's what that's what we need
29:41
to do. And, and, you know, the fact of
29:43
the matter is as, as Catherine says, we may never know where
29:48
that, where that money, where historical money has actually
29:51
been spent at the end of the day.
29:54
But the way to the way to, to, to make it much harder for them
29:57
to, to launder money in the way that they have been is to, to
30:00
have eyes on what they're doing. And and that that just needs
30:04
engagement. Talking about money that is
30:07
publicly disclosed exactly like you say through, you know, what
30:10
might be described as NGOs or or similar where you can follow
30:16
whatever it is. Because by and large, these are
30:18
the projects that people do like to shout about because they,
30:21
they are always couched in terms that the, you know, from which
30:25
the public is supposed to be able to believe that this is
30:28
being done only for good. But this is no different at all
30:33
from the way in which we've talked about farmers certainly
30:36
in the United Kingdom who are turned into slaves by subsidy.
30:40
And of course the moment there's a depend dependence upon
30:44
subsidy, there is an inherent destabilisation.
30:47
There's an immediate destabilisation because the
30:49
market, you know, the market conditions are, are altered
30:51
artificially and in effect it's exactly the same thing with what
30:57
is referred to. This is a complete misnomer, but
31:00
foreign aid and a very good example, I think at the moment
31:04
which is being seen and it's something I'm looking into and
31:07
I'm not really in a position to give a huge amount of detail
31:09
yet. But, but northern Mozambique,
31:11
Cabo Delgado region is a, is a very good example of this, which
31:14
is where you've got well several things going on at the same
31:17
time, but one of which is that there is has been a coincidence
31:21
let's say of insurgency, which seems to be related to the now
31:29
total controlled project concerning LNG.
31:34
You know, enormous gas reserves off the off the coast of
31:38
southern Tanzania, northern Mozambique and the falling away
31:45
of support, financial support from USAID in that region.
31:51
Now what I would say is you go back to the point that USAID
31:56
started meddling in the 1st place and that actually is the
31:59
creation of the instability or your whatever.
32:03
I don't know exactly what they were doing.
32:05
But what I do know now is that by having withdrawn that
32:07
funding, they have turned a large part of that.
32:12
I mean, OK, it's not a particularly densely populated
32:16
area, but nonetheless they have utterly change the economic
32:21
conditions of that region at a stroke just as they did when
32:25
they started to pour money into it.
32:27
And so there is the inherent creation of instability by the
32:34
issuance of any kind of foreign aid because you're changing the
32:38
market and that when set alongside what has been
32:42
happening and the and the there are so many different factors at
32:46
play here concerning the funding of and the apparent goals of
32:51
this insurgency as it's described.
32:54
I mean, the the point of it is that there has absolutely been
32:57
violence in that area. To what extent again figures of
33:01
murky and who exactly is or is not complicit again are it is
33:07
murky, but there's no doubt that there have been large
33:12
multinational corporations like Anadarko and total involved in
33:16
that region at the same time as Mozambique.
33:19
Forces and police have absolutely been carried out, you
33:23
know, be or sorry been involved in operations that have gone
33:29
very wrong and a lot of people have been killed.
33:31
And and so when you set that alongside the the economic
33:34
conditions that have been sort of done and undone by USAID, it
33:39
is simply not credible to regard all of these things as having
33:43
happened separately or, or, you know, organically.
33:46
There they are without a doubt linked.
33:48
And I think, I think that is a that is a big myth to shatter in
33:55
this day and age when we if it weren't for the media and
34:00
government's ability to appeal to people's better natures, then
34:04
then we would never have fallen for climate change.
34:07
The gender thing, the COVID, you know, protect granny.
34:11
All of these things are predicated on the idea that, oh,
34:14
you know, we're so kind. We're going to go and do this
34:16
and the other we're, we're going to go and absolutely ruin their
34:18
country by polluting the, you know, sort of economics of it.
34:25
And, and, but I think this is the, this would be an obvious
34:27
one. This, this would be something
34:28
that would be easier to demonstrate because you can show
34:31
where the money's come from, what they're saying it's going
34:35
to do. OK, yeah, for a period of time.
34:38
Maybe there is some benefit to the lives of some people.
34:41
But but look at look at the consequences in the long run.
34:45
And, and, and I think this is a position you and you do, you
34:47
know, I mean, of course on the BBC, you're never going to hear
34:50
these voices. But from within the African
34:52
continent in particular, do you hear, you hear a lot of people
34:55
who will say Africa does not need, you know, does not want
34:59
foreign aid, does not want foreign interference, which is
35:02
exactly what it is. It's interference.
35:03
It's not aid and, and, and I think that is a big one because
35:07
once people are, are seeing that as being a deliberate intent to
35:14
subvert the normal way of things in that region, then it's, it's
35:18
not so much of A stretch to think that exactly like Mike
35:21
says, you know, that what the Foreign Office is doing by
35:25
hiding amounts of money and whatnot, that, that, you know,
35:29
immediately becomes a more logical conclusion to draw.
35:33
Oh, but Bono sings songs about helping the kids in Africa,
35:37
Charles. I mean, Live Aid, it was all
35:40
about helping poor, poor, victimized Africans.
35:44
Yeah. I mean, I'm a bit.
35:46
I'm a big fan of of removing all aid by the way.
35:48
Bob Geldof has got a lot to answer for.
35:51
They all have those guys. If you go this, anyone who's
35:55
been to Ethiopia will absolutely know this to be the case.
35:57
If you drive anywhere outside of Addis, you will have 10s, if not
36:04
hundreds of children running after you saying give me, give
36:08
me pen, give me Burr. Burr is the Ethiopian currency.
36:12
And and that is that is absolutely attributed to Bob
36:15
Geldof doing exactly what I've just been describing.
36:18
And I'm not saying there was not an issue at that time, but the
36:21
point is that there is that they have created absolutely a
36:27
culture across all generations there since of oh, there's a
36:32
white person, they are here to give us money.
36:34
That's what they're for. And and sorry.
36:37
And Bono, I mean, let's not forget that Bono, you know,
36:39
there is footage of Bono rubbing shoulders with not just Tony
36:43
Blair, but Putin at exactly the same time.
36:45
So, yeah, I mean, as the as the story goes, Bono I think opened
36:53
a concert by clapping his hands, saying every time I clap my
36:59
hands, a child dies. And the story goes that somebody
37:05
very close to the stage yelled at him.
37:07
Well, stop clapping your bloody hands then.
37:10
But well, I'm very good. That's very good.
37:15
Well done. We had a loft, had a loft, had a
37:18
loft track on on. On cue, Yeah, but but no, I
37:23
mean, really good example. Very, very good example.
37:26
Because look at, I mean, not that I necessarily follow what
37:31
he's up to, but but brilliant example.
37:33
You know, Bono has mixed with a war criminal, Tony Blair and
37:39
somebody that everybody would like to describe as a war
37:41
criminal now Vladimir Putin. You know, I mean that that's
37:44
where we're being pushed. So, so which is it?
37:47
Which side is he supposed to be on?
37:49
As well as doing all the the foreign aid stuff.
37:51
Very interesting. I wanted to point out the one
37:55
question that never comes up, and that is why have African
38:00
countries themselves not been able to resist?
38:05
Because, because, because what, what Britain has always been
38:10
very good at is choosing the puppet and getting them placed
38:15
in position of authority. And, and if, if they don't do
38:20
what they're, I mean, a great example of it's Thomas Sankara.
38:22
So, so, you know, Burkina Faso, it was a French colony, OK, but
38:28
still lived under colonialism and had a bunch of leaders that
38:34
were in the pockets of the colonial powers.
38:37
And then Thomas Sankara comes along, who is, you know, on the
38:43
face of it, a Marxist revolutionary of the Che Guevara
38:45
type. And but what does he do?
38:48
He he he requires people to become literate.
38:52
He pushes for equal opportunities for women.
38:57
He, he, he absolutely demands that anything that is produced,
39:03
any anything that that people use in in within the country is
39:07
produced within the country. He heads off to Addis Ababa to
39:11
the African Union meeting. I can't remember exactly which
39:15
year this was and gives and if anybody can find this speech,
39:20
it's available on on on YouTube. It's in French.
39:24
It's the Addis Ababa speech. Watch it.
39:26
The guy was the guy was an absolute comedian.
39:30
He was fantastic. He, he, he basically said, you
39:34
know, Africans need to stick together where we should not be
39:37
repaying the debt that we are languishing under at the moment.
39:43
We should be cooperating and dealing with.
39:45
And Margaret Thatcher was there, there were a whole bunch of, of
39:49
Western leaders there. And he was basically sticking
39:51
the finger to them and saying we're not going to pay this
39:54
debt. But one of the things he said
39:56
was, you know, if, if, if we as leaders in Africa don't stick
40:00
together, if you don't support me in what I'm saying here
40:02
today, I will not be here for this conference next year.
40:05
And he wasn't. He was assassinated very, very
40:08
quickly after that speech. And, and of course, this is,
40:12
this is how it's done. You, you, you put your puppets
40:14
in place, you remove anybody that isn't playing the game.
40:17
Uh, and, uh, and you maintain, uh, these countries under a,
40:21
under a burden of debt that they can never, they can never repay.
40:25
And that, and, you know, with the debt comes the, the
40:28
requirement to, to reform in particular ways, which, which
40:34
suits western colonial interests.
40:37
That, that's, that's how it's done.
40:39
And so people just exactly the same as I mean, we can't sit all
40:46
smug here in the United Kingdom and say that we're in a better
40:48
situation because we're not. We, we are protect.
40:51
We are quite happy, apparently, to put up with the leadership
40:54
that we have, which is about to take us into a massive conflict
40:58
with Russia, China, North Korea, Iran.
41:03
We're, we seem to be quite happy to, to accept the, the, the new
41:08
war economy that we're seeing built around us.
41:11
So we can't look at African people and say that they are
41:16
stupid or, you know, incompetent for for accepting the leadership
41:21
that they have because we do exactly the same.
41:25
And if you look at economic interests, I mean here in South
41:29
Africa for example, all of our resources are not really
41:33
controlled by South African interests.
41:35
Yes, well, everywhere. I mean, show me an African
41:38
country that's in control of its own raw materials.
41:40
It's it's, it's not, it's not a thing.
41:42
And and you know, in this, in this, we've got to, we've got to
41:45
say, you know, you said the Belt and Road is a great thing.
41:48
It is a great thing. I'm not suggesting for one
41:51
second it isn't, but you know, look at what China is doing
41:56
with, in terms of mining rare earth minerals and, you know,
42:01
cobalt and, and other rare earths.
42:04
The, the, the, the environmental devastation that's going on in
42:07
order to get those rare earth minerals is, is unbelievable.
42:12
So, you know, there's no country that that is when it comes to to
42:17
raw materials is, is actually behaving itself appropriately.
42:22
I believe the media is to a large degree a functional part
42:27
of of the same deep state that's running these operations in
42:31
these countries. You know, so, so we, we have
42:35
this, obviously people listening to this conversation are
42:40
probably significantly more cynical about the media than,
42:42
than than most. But you know, as a general rule,
42:49
people have this idea of, of the media as the 4th estate, which
42:52
holds power to account that this is not the case and, and never
42:57
has been really. It, it is part of the, the, the,
43:00
the power infrastructure and, and is there to sell, you know,
43:06
it, it puts some kind of veneer on, on accountability, but it's
43:09
really there to sell the policies that are being
43:12
implemented. So, so of course it's not going
43:15
to give any kind of honest appraisal of what's really going
43:18
on in in countries that that where we have interests.
43:24
Curtis Javan makes a very, very nice metaphor.
43:27
Was it analogy? I always get confused when he
43:30
calls It's the cathedral and it the cathedral comprises of
43:35
academia plus government plus media.
43:39
I mean, I think I would, I think I'd go along with that.
43:44
Certainly there are fewer and fewer examples of people in any
43:51
of those arenas demonstrating that's not the case or indeed
43:56
people are not appropriately supported.
44:00
If they do speak out, I say speak out.
44:04
If they do take a different line.
44:05
I mean, look at, you know, any, any academic discipline that
44:12
that has the potential to interfere with a particular
44:17
narrative. And we saw this with medicine in
44:22
2020. Exactly.
44:23
Climate, I mean, even let's say milk, I mean I this is something
44:29
I found fascinating talking to a dairy farmer really good
44:34
interview. She's on the UK column website
44:35
John, John Cook raw truth and he was explaining the differences
44:39
between A1 and A2 proteins in milk and how they affect the
44:44
human gut and, and basically because the narrative.
44:51
Well, it's an interesting 1, isn't it?
44:53
And I did mention this the other day one of previous Lord Roth
44:58
well actually took 2 Lord Rothschild to go of only two
45:02
speeches he made in the House of Lords.
45:04
One was a very long one about the dangers of raw milk and the
45:07
necessity for pasteurisation, which is fascinating, but let's
45:11
not get sidetracked. But the the point is that even
45:18
into something like milk, there is there is no funding for
45:21
academic research into the health benefits or otherwise of
45:27
raw milk. So it's the same.
45:29
I mean, you know, if you were to speak out, not only would you
45:33
not be funded, you would be pilloried.
45:35
And it's exactly the same in the OK.
45:38
I mean, I think there are fewer examples in the media of people
45:41
who do seem to, let's say, wake up and decide that if they're
45:46
sort of in the mainstream, they, well, I mean, I suppose we'd
45:48
never know, but that they, that they want to get a story out
45:51
that gets suppressed. I mean, finding that out, it's
45:52
obviously quite hard, but it's absolutely the case in in
45:56
politics, in, in Western politics, perhaps less so
45:59
outside of the West. I mean, one, I, I don't know if
46:03
that, that might, that might be just a question of perspective
46:06
and that could be totally inaccurate.
46:08
But it does look rather as though there are debates of a
46:14
different kind going on in, in countries that might not be
46:17
described as Western sort of in a parliamentary context.
46:21
But but no, by by and large, the, the punishment for doing so
46:26
is, is absolutely incredible. I mean, we played a report on
46:30
Wednesday's news programme about the inquest into the death of
46:33
Derek Dimock, who was given he was prescribed midazolam by by
46:40
Royal Trinity Hospice in 2020 and died.
46:44
And it was a case that Andrew Bridgen took on while he was
46:48
still serving as an MP and he wrote to the chief coroner at
46:54
the time about this, who got in touch to basically got in touch
46:59
with the House of Commons to report Bridgen on a
47:02
parliamentary standards issue for trying trying to influence a
47:05
judge. I mean, you know, it is it is
47:09
absolutely amazing. Well, I mean, given the specific
47:11
context of what he was actually writing Tim about.
47:13
So so stepping outside a tall of the very tightly controlled sort
47:20
of narrative pathway has has terrible, I mean, one might say
47:25
worse and worse consequences. I.
47:28
Don't know if you remember in 2021, Tanzania's president John
47:33
Magufuli, Yeah, he's like, Nah, we're not having any of those
47:37
COVID nonsense here with those PCR tests.
47:40
They're not coming here, No vaccines.
47:43
Well, he just coincidentally died.
47:45
Dead. Dead shortly afterwards, as were
47:47
the four other African premiers who said more or less the same
47:52
thing. All dead within that year.
47:55
So. This is coincidence.
47:56
What did they die of? COVID.
47:59
Exactly. No, they did not die of COVID.
48:02
I think. I think there was one report
48:04
that one of them was supposed to have had a respiratory illness
48:07
that got worse. I'm afraid I can't remember who
48:09
that was, but not a chance. Yeah, that that I'm afraid that
48:15
is not coincidence. So.
48:18
So this is very, you know, this is very real.
48:20
It is. It is absolutely real.
48:23
So what's the moral of the story as we come in for the final lap?
48:26
Well, I think it's the the way in which all of this is
48:31
absolutely across borders in, in every single respect.
48:34
I mean, for a start, we talk about conflict.
48:37
We haven't, we haven't actually mentioned the, the very things
48:41
which make conflict possible, which of course are the weapon
48:44
systems and ammunition that, that, that destroy.
48:49
And where does all that come from and who, who is it or which
48:54
powers or authorities create the conditions for those weapons to
48:58
move across borders or to be built or made in the 1st place?
49:03
And look in particular at what NATO is doing and, you know,
49:08
for, for the majority of the UK column audience looking at what
49:12
the, you know, so-called defence industry is doing at the behest
49:16
of government in the United Kingdom at the moment as we
49:18
mobilize for a whole society approach to the long war.
49:24
And and this is this is absolutely no joke.
49:27
So we so we do return to Sudan or indeed Rwanda, which has, you
49:32
know, again, the other thing that's that's never mentioned is
49:34
that due to the, well, yeah, let's say meddling from the
49:43
Belgians, the, you know, everybody, the French, the
49:45
British, everyone who's sort of had a had a go in, in Rwanda,
49:48
there have been exterminations of one sort or another.
49:51
I mean, OK, official figures are to be taken with a pinch of
49:57
salt, but but nevertheless, going back decades prior to
50:01
1994, people in Rwanda were being killed, effectively being
50:07
put up to conduct slaughter that that's happened many, many times
50:11
before. So when we consider that or
50:14
Sudan, which seems to have gone on forever.
50:16
But again, look, look at, look at the genesis of that and the,
50:20
the colonial, the administration of the, the sort of post
50:26
colonial period and how that has set it up.
50:29
And look at what we are being being walked into now through
50:34
the, the, the sort of foreign policy or war policy of the
50:39
countries that we do live in. By by and large, you know, the
50:42
the audience that would be tuning into this and, and, and
50:47
that is, that is absolutely serious stuff.
50:49
So, so we do need to look into what's going on over there
50:52
because it very much pertains to what's going to go on over here.
50:56
And also because, you know, what's going on over over there
51:01
is being caused by, by people over here and that this, this, I
51:06
keep saying it and I think it's, it's just a point that we keep
51:10
needing to make is, is that, you know, it's very common for
51:14
people to say something like, why are you talking about that
51:16
country over there or that region, uh, whether it's the
51:19
Middle East, Africa or whatever it happens to be, Umm, when
51:23
there's so much to talk about in the UK.
51:25
And, and my answer to that is because the things that there's,
51:30
there's so many things that we should, that we could be talking
51:32
about in the UK wouldn't be things if we weren't spending
51:35
the money abroad to create these conflicts in the 1st place.
51:39
This is, this is a very large part of, of the economic
51:42
situation that we face here in the UK.
51:45
And, and we're doing it. So, you know, we, we cannot
51:49
because of, of issues in the UK, because of lack of money in the
51:53
UK, say that we should only be looking at those issues because
51:58
actually they would not necessarily be issues if if we
52:01
weren't spending billions of pounds trying to kill people in
52:05
other parts of the world. It is our responsibility.
52:08
Every one of these deaths is our responsibility.
52:11
And and that that's why we should be concerned about where
52:19
British influence extends to. Just just as one final anecdote,
52:24
sorry to cut in germ. It's interesting to think back.
52:28
I, I took part in and wrote quite a bit of what was then the
52:34
largest peacetime exercise to have taken place with involving
52:40
African forces. And that was back, I think that
52:43
was in 2009. And given that we've been
52:48
talking about the Horn of Africa and all the arrows pointing
52:53
towards it, that exercise took place in Djibouti.
52:57
So there we go. And over 15 years on, look,
52:59
look, Look what's happening. On that sobering thought,
53:04
Charles and Mike, I'll catch up with you next week.
53:06
Thank you for joining me in the trenches.