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The Terrill Swift & Dave Thompson Interview: False Confessions · Legally Brunette

0:01
Speaker 1: Hi, guys, welcome to Legally Brunette. I'll be your host
0:05
Speaker 1: today Emily Simpson with Shane. Normally we get very excited
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Speaker 1: about doing episodes on true crime and legal things and
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Speaker 1: breaking it all down for all of you guys. But
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Speaker 1: today this is a very very special episode, very near
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Speaker 1: and dear to my heart. We have two special guests
0:20
Speaker 1: today and we're actually recording from the iHeart Studio here
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Speaker 1: in La So we have Terrell Swift. I don't know
0:26
Speaker 1: if you guys out there that are listening are big
0:28
Speaker 1: Housewives fans, but Terrell has been on an episode of
0:31
Speaker 1: Housewives with me. It was a few years ago, but
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Speaker 1: we actually had to sit down and we had a
0:36
Speaker 1: great conversation just talking about how Terrell was wrongfully accused,
0:42
Speaker 1: spent time in prison ten years, right, trelle fifteen fifteen years,
0:46
Speaker 1: and then kind of where he's at now. Just for
0:49
Speaker 1: our listeners that don't know a lot about your background, Torell,
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Speaker 1: I'm just going to read a little bit and then
0:54
Speaker 1: you know, you add whatever you.
0:55
Speaker 2: Would like to.
0:56
Speaker 1: So Terrell Swift was arrested in nineteen ninety five at
0:59
Speaker 1: just seventeen years years old, in connection to the nineteen
1:01
Speaker 1: ninety four rape and murder of Nina Glover in Chicago.
1:05
Speaker 1: His arrest came after another teenager gave a statement to
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Speaker 1: police and named several individuals, including Terrell, Despite no physical
1:12
Speaker 1: evidence linking any of them to the crime and even
1:15
Speaker 1: early DNA testing excluding them, all of the boys, including Terrell,
1:19
Speaker 1: ended up signing confessions after police interrogations. Those confessions became
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Speaker 1: the central evidence used to convict them. Years later, more
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Speaker 1: advanced DNA testing identified a different perpetrator, leading to Terrell's
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Speaker 1: conviction being vacated in twenty eleven, after he had spent
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Speaker 1: fifteen years in prison for a crime he did not commit.
1:42
Speaker 1: Before we get into that, let me just introduce Dave
1:44
Speaker 1: Thomas is here with us as well. I met Dave
1:47
Speaker 1: not too long ago. It was at the Hulu event
1:49
Speaker 1: right where Amanda Knox was there and I was interviewing
1:54
Speaker 1: her and I met Dave, and Dave has an interesting bio.
1:58
Speaker 1: I'm just going to read a little bit you whatever
2:00
Speaker 1: you would like. So, Dave Thompson CFI, do you want
2:03
Speaker 1: to tell me what that is?
2:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a certified forensic interviewer.
2:06
Speaker 1: Okay, certified forensic interviewer is a nationally recognized expert in
2:10
Speaker 1: investigative interviewing, police interrogations, and the complex issue of false confessions.
2:16
Speaker 1: Dave has trained thousands of investigators, law enforcement professionals, attorneys,
2:20
Speaker 1: and corporate leaders, and ethical science based methods of truth
2:23
Speaker 1: seeking grounded in research and practice. Dave frequently serves as
2:28
Speaker 1: an expert witness in cases involving police interrogation practices and
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Speaker 1: disputed confessions, offering insight into interviewing methods, psychological coercion, statement reliability,
2:39
Speaker 1: and the science of influence and decision making under pressure.
2:43
Speaker 1: So I think it's really exciting that we have you
2:45
Speaker 1: here today, Dave, along with Terrell, because we've done several
2:49
Speaker 1: episodes in the past. I just to name a few,
2:52
Speaker 1: I mean Amanda Knox was one of them. She made
2:55
Speaker 1: a false confession. And then also it just comes to
2:59
Speaker 1: my mind we did. Do you remember the yogurt shot murders.
3:01
Speaker 1: You remember that case and the young men that ended
3:03
Speaker 1: up giving false confessions. And I will tell you most
3:06
Speaker 1: of the feedback I get when we do episodes like that,
3:09
Speaker 1: people will say to me, that makes no sense. Why
3:12
Speaker 1: would someone ever say they did something they didn't do?
3:16
Speaker 1: And it's very black and white to people. So I
3:19
Speaker 1: think it's so exciting for you both to be here
3:21
Speaker 1: because not let's get rid of the black and white
3:23
Speaker 1: and really dive into why that happens.
3:26
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I think it's when you try to explain
3:27
Speaker 3: to people, like why would somebody confess to a crime
3:30
Speaker 3: or people? So I would never confess falsely? Right, that's
3:32
Speaker 3: the wrong question, right, It's instead like, let's understand what's
3:35
Speaker 3: the human decision making process that these psychological tactics have.
3:39
Speaker 3: And you know, when you hear stories like Drell's and
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Speaker 3: he shares his experience and Amanda's and all these other cases,
3:44
Speaker 3: you see so many commonalities that it is pretty obvious
3:47
Speaker 3: we know some of these contributors that result in false.
3:51
Speaker 1: And Terrell, take me back to when you were seventeen
3:55
Speaker 1: and you end up in a police station and you're
3:57
Speaker 1: being interrogated for something that you didn't do.
4:00
Speaker 2: But where's your head at?
4:01
Speaker 1: Why do you end up saying that you did something
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Speaker 1: that you didn't do?
4:05
Speaker 2: How does that happen?
4:06
Speaker 4: And how long were you there as well?
4:08
Speaker 5: How long was I in the police station?
4:10
Speaker 4: Yeah?
4:11
Speaker 6: I think maybe for three days? I think, not sure.
4:16
Speaker 6: I can't remember how long I was in the station.
4:19
Speaker 6: But to answer your question, you know, people always say
4:23
Speaker 6: I get that a lot. You know, how could you
4:24
Speaker 6: sign a confession to something, to a crime that you
4:27
Speaker 6: didn't commit, And it's a very hard question to ask.
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Speaker 5: It's like you would have to be there.
4:35
Speaker 6: And I wouldn't wish that on anyone, right, I wouldn't
4:37
Speaker 6: wish that on my worst enemy. To be in a
4:39
Speaker 6: position to where you're literally you're threatening with your life
4:46
Speaker 6: to save your life, you know what I mean. So
4:48
Speaker 6: it's like you it is a very very very heavy,
4:56
Speaker 6: very heavy load on the set. I was seventeen. I
5:00
Speaker 6: haven't experienced anything in life at all, pretty much, and
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Speaker 6: you're telling me that I'm going to die in jail
5:06
Speaker 6: for something I know nothing about. And what gets people to,
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Speaker 6: I guess, the false confess as you get an officer
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Speaker 6: that says, hey, I believe you, and that's all you're
5:17
Speaker 6: trying to do is get someone to hear you right,
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Speaker 6: hear me out, I didn't do this. I need some help,
5:22
Speaker 6: And that little bit right causes someone to sign a
5:26
Speaker 6: confession to a crime that they didn't commit under the
5:29
Speaker 6: pretense that this officer is saying that we're going to
5:31
Speaker 6: get you home. Because at the end of the day,
5:33
Speaker 6: you just want to go home because you had nothing
5:35
Speaker 6: to do with the crime that you're accused.
5:38
Speaker 1: And I would assume because you had nothing to do
5:41
Speaker 1: with it, you're thinking, Okay, i'll sign it in this moment,
5:44
Speaker 1: and I'll get home and i'll talk to my parents
5:47
Speaker 1: and then it'll all work out. I assume that's psychologically
5:50
Speaker 1: what's going on, too, because you know you didn't do it,
5:51
Speaker 1: so you're thinking in the end, it's all going to
5:54
Speaker 1: work itself out anyway, and then it doesn't. So Dave,
5:58
Speaker 1: how do you become involved and end up training police
6:02
Speaker 1: officers to not do the wrong thing.
6:05
Speaker 3: It's a great question. And what you just said too
6:06
Speaker 3: was kind of ironic to think about. Is somebody's innocence
6:10
Speaker 3: almost works against them, right because and Trell conbviously speak
6:13
Speaker 3: to us better than I. But what we've seen is
6:15
Speaker 3: people who are innocent believe in the justice system, so
6:18
Speaker 3: they believe that investigators are going to pursue the investigation,
6:22
Speaker 3: they're going to collect evidence, they're going to realize what
6:23
Speaker 3: I said isn't true. But Trell's point, if somebody can
6:27
Speaker 3: just cooperate or be compliant, and that means they can
6:29
Speaker 3: then leave the room. They'll let the attorneys will figure
6:32
Speaker 3: it out afterwards. People will see through this and then
6:34
Speaker 3: it just doesn't It just doesn't happen. And so I
6:35
Speaker 3: think that's just a phenomenon we've seen, is innocence actually
6:38
Speaker 3: works against innocent. Yeah, my personal experience was the first
6:45
Speaker 3: exposure I had to kind of wrongful convictions and false
6:47
Speaker 3: confessions was thanks to media and platforms like yours. Learned
6:51
Speaker 3: about Brendon Daci's case from Making a Murderer and I
6:54
Speaker 3: watched it and thought, I mean this, I was kind
6:56
Speaker 3: of sickened by the interrogation and got a youthful person
7:00
Speaker 3: with some vulnerabilities. And when I saw the interview and
7:03
Speaker 3: the interrogation, I thought, as somebody who represents a leading
7:06
Speaker 3: training firm, we have to stand up and say something
7:09
Speaker 3: because if we don't, we're basically just kind of condoning
7:12
Speaker 3: and endorsing that. And so from there I started to
7:14
Speaker 3: learn more about what is the social science behind this,
7:17
Speaker 3: Why every time we look at a false confession case,
7:19
Speaker 3: does it contain the same elements each time? We should
7:23
Speaker 3: learn from that And so since then and over the
7:25
Speaker 3: last decade plus, we done a great job working with
7:28
Speaker 3: groups like the Innocent Center and our training organization to
7:30
Speaker 3: make sure that we're educating investigators because they do want
7:33
Speaker 3: to do.
7:34
Speaker 5: It the right way.
7:34
Speaker 4: What are some of those elements, those the common elements.
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Speaker 3: I think one of what we know one of the
7:40
Speaker 3: most common contributors to a false confession is the use
7:43
Speaker 3: of what's called the false evidence ploy, or when an
7:46
Speaker 3: investigator lies about evidence or maybe even lies about potential consequences.
7:51
Speaker 3: And in a great movement Toroloa, actually our first connection
7:54
Speaker 3: was working on legislation like this because in the United States,
7:58
Speaker 3: police are legally allowed to lie about evidence. Yeah, Supreme
8:02
Speaker 3: Court allows it since nineteen sixty nine Fraser versus Cup
8:05
Speaker 3: Supreme Court ruling. Since then. In the last few years,
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Speaker 3: call and I first connected working on a bill in
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Speaker 3: Illinois and Oregon. I think it was twenty twenty one
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Speaker 3: one first pass some legislation specifically to protect youthful people
8:18
Speaker 3: and to eliminate this ability where police are lying about evidence.
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Speaker 3: And just one. I mean, there's a lot we can
8:23
Speaker 3: talk about about that. First of all, if you're lying
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Speaker 3: about evidence, that means you must not have the evidence
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Speaker 3: in the first place, which we have a gap. We
8:30
Speaker 3: have a gap here. You lie about evidence, it's going
8:32
Speaker 3: to cause some more police community distrust, which we already
8:34
Speaker 3: have across this country. And if you lie about evidence,
8:38
Speaker 3: it causes somebody to start to have memory distrust. I think, well,
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Speaker 3: maybe I was there. If the evidence says that, maybe
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Speaker 3: maybe that's what.
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Speaker 4: I have to have an explanation for why this might Right,
8:47
Speaker 4: the blood was there at the scene of the crime,
8:49
Speaker 4: my blood or something or fingerprints.
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Speaker 2: I mean, whatever they're telling, whatever, whatever.
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Speaker 4: The lie is, they feel they have to have an
8:55
Speaker 4: explanation for it because they said it was there, so
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Speaker 4: I must have a reason for it. And so they
9:00
Speaker 4: started talking about it probably.
9:01
Speaker 3: And then the explanation is going to contradict reality, which
9:03
Speaker 3: now somebody looks like a war right, Yeah, And it
9:06
Speaker 3: goes back I think to what we were saying before
9:08
Speaker 3: is if if somebody, if an investigator, tells you that
9:11
Speaker 3: we've got an eyewitness, we've got fingerprints, and we've got
9:14
Speaker 3: video surveillance, and so now you know, Okay, I didn't
9:17
Speaker 3: do it. So if I confess and just just to
9:19
Speaker 3: get out of the room, at least the eyewitness, the fingerprints,
9:22
Speaker 3: and the video surveillance will exonerate me. That evidence never existed.
9:26
Speaker 3: Now all you have is a confessionion.
9:28
Speaker 1: Right, And then I assume, because we talked about this before,
9:30
Speaker 1: that false confession you signed followed you just it would
9:33
Speaker 1: never go away, no matter what happened. It was just
9:36
Speaker 1: every time you were before a judge or you were
9:39
Speaker 1: presented with any way, it was just the false confession. Yeah,
9:42
Speaker 1: just followed you throughout this fifteen years that you were
9:44
Speaker 1: in prison.
9:45
Speaker 5: Yes, that was the biggest obstacle because.
9:48
Speaker 1: There was no DNA, there's no forensics, there's there's I
9:52
Speaker 1: guess there was an eyewitness, but I don't even They
9:54
Speaker 1: just named some four people and.
9:57
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was one of one of the young men
10:01
Speaker 6: that was falsely arrested. You know with us, he's supposed
10:05
Speaker 6: to be at gave my name, right, But none of
10:08
Speaker 6: us had anything to do with the crime, right, none
10:10
Speaker 6: of us. But that was the only thing that ultimately
10:13
Speaker 6: convicted us, right, was the false confession. Nothing else to
10:18
Speaker 6: support anything that we said in our false statements because
10:20
Speaker 6: it wasn't true. You know, these were things that was
10:23
Speaker 6: fed to us by law enforcement at the time. But
10:26
Speaker 6: the false confession was the ultimately nail in the coffin
10:31
Speaker 6: for us being convicted.
10:41
Speaker 1: It's not mandated that police departments learn better tactics correct,
10:47
Speaker 1: So how do you convince them or how do you
10:49
Speaker 1: get in there and say, Okay, you guys need this
10:52
Speaker 1: training because what you're doing is an ethical or how
10:55
Speaker 1: do you convince them that.
10:56
Speaker 2: They need to do that?
10:57
Speaker 3: I would first, I would say police want training, they
11:00
Speaker 3: want to do it the right way, and investigators in
11:02
Speaker 3: this position to help protect the community and public safety.
11:06
Speaker 3: And so a lot of these tactics we're talking about,
11:08
Speaker 3: like false evidence, ploy and some others we can get into,
11:10
Speaker 3: are what they've been trained to do historically, and whether
11:13
Speaker 3: it's law enforcement, military, everybody's very scripted. What's the manual say,
11:17
Speaker 3: like what's step one, two, and three? And so thankfully
11:20
Speaker 3: we've got science the last two decades that have allowed
11:23
Speaker 3: us to now re educate investigators. And so when we're
11:27
Speaker 3: out there training police, they're embracing that, they're asking more questions.
11:31
Speaker 3: It's not it doesn't feel comfortable to lie to somebody
11:33
Speaker 3: or convince somebody that they're not being cooperative. Police want
11:36
Speaker 3: to get the truth, and so a lot of our
11:39
Speaker 3: training is just to try to give them these aha
11:41
Speaker 3: moments of a confession might seem really reliable and truthful
11:46
Speaker 3: on its surface, but when you dig into how did
11:47
Speaker 3: we get there, maybe you should investigate a little bit,
11:50
Speaker 3: a little bit further. So one of the favorite slides
11:52
Speaker 3: that we have in our presentation is if it ain't broke,
11:56
Speaker 3: break it, And part of that is trying to educate
11:59
Speaker 3: like this. You may not think there's a problem because
12:00
Speaker 3: it's been successful for you for twenty years, but let's
12:04
Speaker 3: look at experiences like Terrell's and learn how we can
12:06
Speaker 3: do it better.
12:07
Speaker 1: Can I just get back to the legislation that you
12:08
Speaker 1: guys worked on together, because I have that in my notes,
12:10
Speaker 1: because I think that's so interesting. I know you started
12:13
Speaker 1: in Illinois working together on that, and now it's it's
12:16
Speaker 1: the same.
12:17
Speaker 2: I don't remember what it's called.
12:18
Speaker 1: What is it Bill two six y four four. That's
12:20
Speaker 1: the one that's in California now. Is it mimic the
12:23
Speaker 1: one in Illinois. I think it's basically the same. It's
12:26
Speaker 1: just now California has adopted it as well.
12:29
Speaker 4: Why was Illinois the first state? Was it an easier
12:31
Speaker 4: one to get your kind of your foot in the
12:32
Speaker 4: door and in passing that or.
12:35
Speaker 3: I'm probably going to between Illinois and Oregon. They fought
12:37
Speaker 3: to make sure who was going to be the first
12:39
Speaker 3: governor to sign the bill. Soh so it was like
12:41
Speaker 3: a race, yeah, but it was good. We just had
12:43
Speaker 3: really good support in both in both states, and some
12:46
Speaker 3: really good leadership in both and bipartisan support which was neat.
12:50
Speaker 3: We had law enforcement representatives, and you know, I was
12:53
Speaker 3: excited to be a part of that voice of saying
12:56
Speaker 3: we need more training, we want to make sure we're
12:58
Speaker 3: doing it the right way. And so those two states
12:59
Speaker 3: initiated that bill, and every bill I think we're ten
13:02
Speaker 3: or eleven states now if something similar. Some have some
13:06
Speaker 3: kind of different language in there on what's what's allowed
13:09
Speaker 3: or not allowed or if a confession's presumed in admissible
13:11
Speaker 3: or not. But it's rolling across the country, and I
13:14
Speaker 3: think even if there's not legislation yet, departments are adopting
13:18
Speaker 3: new training and policy to reflect with the legislation.
13:20
Speaker 1: Look, you know, for our listeners, just so we break
13:22
Speaker 1: it down into simple terms, what are some of the
13:25
Speaker 1: big basics like that.
13:27
Speaker 2: We can take away from the legislation.
13:28
Speaker 1: What were the the meat of it that is really effective.
13:34
Speaker 3: I think that's an easy way to explain it. When
13:36
Speaker 3: the when this legislation Illinois first got passed was really
13:39
Speaker 3: to remove the ability or even if investigators lie about evidence.
13:42
Speaker 3: So if they're sitting with somebody of a youthful age
13:44
Speaker 3: and they say we have fingerprints on the weapon, and
13:48
Speaker 3: if that's false, if that's not true, if that results
13:50
Speaker 3: in an admission or confession, in some states, that confession
13:53
Speaker 3: is now presumed and admissible cannot be used. Which so
13:57
Speaker 3: now if you're kind of get off at the court level,
13:59
Speaker 3: that's going to rea educate investigators that I'm not going
14:01
Speaker 3: to use this technique anymore. As it's been growing. There's
14:05
Speaker 3: other tactics, things like when investigators threaten severe consequences, but
14:10
Speaker 3: if you don't cooperate, you know you're going to get
14:12
Speaker 3: the death penalty. If you don't cooperate, you're going to
14:14
Speaker 3: spend life in prison, or the opposite. I'm curious if
14:17
Speaker 3: Trell experienced this, but minimizing consequences, like, hey, if you
14:20
Speaker 3: just tell me what happens, probably not that big of
14:22
Speaker 3: a deal. We can figure this out between us. And
14:24
Speaker 3: so three of the main categories I've seen is deception
14:28
Speaker 3: what you just talked about, and then maximization and minimization
14:31
Speaker 3: and trying to remove those.
14:32
Speaker 1: Tactics, and it applies to it's eighteen and younger, but
14:37
Speaker 1: then also eighteen to twenty five.
14:38
Speaker 2: Is that correct?
14:39
Speaker 1: That's the way I kind of interpreted it because I
14:41
Speaker 1: read that even up to twenty five, your brain's still
14:45
Speaker 1: molding or forming, and so that's why it's applicable to
14:48
Speaker 1: eighteen and younger minors, but also then eighteen to twenty five,
14:51
Speaker 1: is that correct?
14:53
Speaker 5: Youth?
14:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, every state's a little different. That's why I've used
14:55
Speaker 3: the term youthful of been conditioned.
14:56
Speaker 1: That way, because because then it just applies, well, we all, like.
14:59
Speaker 3: You think, when we all turn from seven or seventeen
15:02
Speaker 3: to eighteen, there's not like a switch that goes off
15:03
Speaker 3: that all of sudden we know what the hell we're talking about,
15:05
Speaker 3: especially met now a contract, and so yeah, that social science,
15:10
Speaker 3: like our developmental maturity is more around twenty five. That
15:13
Speaker 3: were kind of overcoming these things. But a lot of
15:15
Speaker 3: the laws are right around usually eighteen. But at the
15:19
Speaker 3: end of the day, the same thing should applied to everybody.
15:20
Speaker 3: I don't care who we're interviewing. We should be using
15:23
Speaker 3: evidence based tactics to get reliable information.
15:26
Speaker 1: Do they have to have an attorney or a parent present.
15:29
Speaker 1: Does there have to be some kind of adult as well?
15:32
Speaker 2: Or no?
15:33
Speaker 3: Let Trell speak to his specific experience, because I know
15:35
Speaker 3: it's inconsistent across the US.
15:37
Speaker 6: Right, I mean, there should be a parent there, because
15:42
Speaker 6: in other countries, you know, some law enforcement they don't
15:45
Speaker 6: even speak to children without a parent being there.
15:47
Speaker 4: Here, yeah, that's all it should be.
15:49
Speaker 6: Yeah, but here we tend to do it, and we
15:51
Speaker 6: see the repercussion behind it. Yeah, people like myself young
15:55
Speaker 6: going in being interrogated and being tricked and lose half
16:00
Speaker 6: your life, and a lot of us don't come out
16:03
Speaker 6: and not able to do a podcast with you right
16:06
Speaker 6: right because it's too damaging, it's too stressful, it's the
16:09
Speaker 6: trauma is too unbearable to even proceed with life. So
16:14
Speaker 6: you know, we should, we definitely should take a look
16:16
Speaker 6: at it to make sure that they that there is
16:18
Speaker 6: someone there, which it should be at all times, right,
16:22
Speaker 6: But sometimes it doesn't happen, and that's the unfortunate.
16:26
Speaker 3: When that legislation in Illinois first got announced, that the
16:28
Speaker 3: governor signed the bill and it passed, and we're kind
16:31
Speaker 3: of watching the press afterwards, like what's the reaction of
16:33
Speaker 3: the of the community, and I couldn't believe how many
16:35
Speaker 3: people would responding of I didn't know we needed to
16:38
Speaker 3: make up that they can do this. What do you
16:39
Speaker 3: mean we have to have a law that you can't
16:41
Speaker 3: do this. And so what that told me is most
16:44
Speaker 3: people don't realize that the police are able to lie,
16:47
Speaker 3: which is why that tactic was so powerful. Yeah, if
16:49
Speaker 3: you don't assume that's the case.
16:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, because if you don't believe the police can lie,
16:53
Speaker 4: then when they say we found the finger your fingerprints
16:55
Speaker 4: on the weapon or whatever, now you think it's real.
16:57
Speaker 3: Right, we're trained to.
17:00
Speaker 4: Or you start to think I did do it or exactly,
17:03
Speaker 4: or you know I'm gonna get busted no matter what. Now,
17:05
Speaker 4: what would.
17:06
Speaker 1: Your advice be to parents to tell their children, Like,
17:09
Speaker 1: if I have a thirteen year old daughter, if she
17:11
Speaker 1: gets taken into a police not that she would at thirteen,
17:14
Speaker 1: but I'm just saying, as a minor, if she's in
17:16
Speaker 1: some situation where she gets taken into a police department,
17:19
Speaker 1: what advice is parents should we give to our children
17:21
Speaker 1: situation you not to say anything, right, don't say a word,
17:27
Speaker 1: just yeah.
17:28
Speaker 3: And when I say that, if you got police like
17:30
Speaker 3: listening and they should be and they think, okay, well
17:33
Speaker 3: that's great. But at the end of the day, if
17:34
Speaker 3: an investigator is being interviewed by internal affairs or by anybody,
17:38
Speaker 3: their first call is to their union rep or to
17:41
Speaker 3: an attorney. Right, they're going to do the same thing. So, yeah,
17:44
Speaker 3: you're a parent. We all assume that everybody is doing
17:48
Speaker 3: this with the right intent, right, But even well intended
17:51
Speaker 3: investigators can go down the wrong path. And so yeah,
17:55
Speaker 3: protection with advice of counsel, and even parents are not
17:57
Speaker 3: always the best people to be in the interviewer either.
18:00
Speaker 4: It's a step in the right direction though it certainly
18:02
Speaker 4: certainly is a layer of protection for the child, for
18:06
Speaker 4: the minor. But you're right, and it's not fool proof.
18:09
Speaker 3: Well, you don't always have parents who are attorneys, right.
18:11
Speaker 3: Part of the problems sometimes if you get a parent
18:13
Speaker 3: who might actually facilitate a false confession by saying, you
18:18
Speaker 3: know what, Hey, just tell them, tell them what they
18:19
Speaker 3: want to hear, like, just cooperate. Why are you not
18:21
Speaker 3: withholding wh are withholding information? And so parental advice might
18:25
Speaker 3: often conflict with legal advice, and so it's definitely a layer,
18:29
Speaker 3: but sometimes it actually works against the best.
18:31
Speaker 4: And so then then the best result would really be
18:34
Speaker 4: having an attorney representing them, looking out for their interests
18:37
Speaker 4: and they're emotionally invested in they're just protecting them right legally.
18:42
Speaker 4: But that's never going to happen. Huh. It's never going
18:44
Speaker 4: to be a case where the law requires legal representation
18:49
Speaker 4: getting there during it.
18:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, We're getting there, especially with youthful people, So it's possible.
18:53
Speaker 3: I think it's possible. It's you know, when you look
18:55
Speaker 3: at the practical application, there's going to be some situations
18:58
Speaker 3: where the urgent need to talk to some.
19:00
Speaker 4: Right, but or someone insists I don't want an attorney, right.
19:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think we're getting there. And the other
19:04
Speaker 3: piece of legislation that seems like a no brainer to
19:06
Speaker 3: me is recording interviews and interrogations. Like we a lot
19:10
Speaker 3: of these cases we have to rely on what did
19:14
Speaker 3: a police report or affidavit say happen in that interview,
19:17
Speaker 3: What did the person being interviewed say happen?
19:19
Speaker 4: What were the conditions, like right, how long was it.
19:22
Speaker 2: What time was it.
19:24
Speaker 1: I remember watching the like the the Yogurt shot murders,
19:27
Speaker 1: and they were interrogating them at like four am or something,
19:30
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, I go to bed at nine pm.
19:33
Speaker 1: If you're interrogating me at four am, I'd be likely
19:36
Speaker 1: to sign a false confession if you tell me I
19:38
Speaker 1: can go home and be in bed. And I mean,
19:42
Speaker 1: because you know the exhaustion, you just want to leave
19:45
Speaker 1: the time. You know, it's unreal to me that you
19:49
Speaker 1: can interrogate people for that. And you said that you
19:51
Speaker 1: were there almost three days, like they were they questioning
19:54
Speaker 1: you through the middle of the night.
19:56
Speaker 6: I was gonna I was letting you finish. Okay, Yes,
20:00
Speaker 6: that's exactly how they do it.
20:01
Speaker 2: Right, right, because they want to wear you down.
20:03
Speaker 6: Scare the hell out of you. Again, I'm seventeen, right,
20:06
Speaker 6: never been in any trophy. I'm like, what do you
20:09
Speaker 6: mean I raped and killed someone? Like, no, let me
20:12
Speaker 6: call my mother, let me call somebody, because I didn't
20:16
Speaker 6: do this.
20:17
Speaker 5: Right.
20:17
Speaker 6: They throw you in the room. Then you take a
20:20
Speaker 6: nap where you try to on a steel bench. They
20:22
Speaker 6: wake you up. They're taunting you, coming back and forth,
20:25
Speaker 6: so it's like it's a constant. It's a psychological torture,
20:30
Speaker 6: is what I call it. It's literally a psychological torture.
20:33
Speaker 6: And again, adults can't handle it for a seventeen year old,
20:37
Speaker 6: you know, youth, You're going to put me through that.
20:40
Speaker 6: Tell me I'm going to die one minute, and then
20:42
Speaker 6: tell me you can go home the next. I want
20:44
Speaker 6: to go home. You just told me I can die.
20:46
Speaker 6: You know what do I have to do to go home?
20:49
Speaker 6: I didn't do anything. So it's that easy, Right I
20:52
Speaker 6: can say that that easy for someone and say, Okay,
20:55
Speaker 6: I'll sign a confession because I want to go home.
20:58
Speaker 5: I didn't do that.
21:00
Speaker 3: So, especially when you trust the investim when you trust,
21:02
Speaker 3: when you have faith that like, let me just get
21:04
Speaker 3: out of the situation and they'll figure it out. Right,
21:06
Speaker 3: the evidence of.
21:07
Speaker 6: Again, when I was going to try, I never had
21:09
Speaker 6: one doubt that I was going to get convicted.
21:11
Speaker 1: Right, I didn't do You didn't do it, And you're thinking,
21:14
Speaker 1: here's the justice system. I'm going to get justice. They're
21:16
Speaker 1: going to understand that I wasn't there and there's no
21:19
Speaker 1: DNA and there's nothing linking me. So and then it
21:22
Speaker 1: doesn't work that way. How did you because you were
21:25
Speaker 1: in prison for fifteen years, did you always hold on
21:28
Speaker 1: to the hope that you were going to eventually be exonerated.
21:32
Speaker 1: I mean, how did you stay positive through those fifteen years?
21:35
Speaker 1: How did you make it through day to day?
21:36
Speaker 4: It was a light at the end of your tunnel,
21:38
Speaker 4: and I'm stick it out.
21:41
Speaker 6: I give all praise to God. Because I was seventeen.
21:45
Speaker 6: I think I weighed like one hundred and twenty pounds.
21:47
Speaker 6: I had no clue. Right I got convicted. I was
21:51
Speaker 6: in my penitentiary sale and I was pretty much lost.
21:56
Speaker 6: I was numb from being convicted of a crime that
21:59
Speaker 6: I didn't commit it. So I'm numbing in my jail
22:02
Speaker 6: cell and I watched I was watching the news and
22:05
Speaker 6: I saw a guy get exonerated and the story was
22:08
Speaker 6: similar to mine, and I'm like, holy smoke, it's not
22:13
Speaker 6: just me. So I started just writing, you know. I
22:16
Speaker 6: called home, got some information from my mother to Northwestern
22:20
Speaker 6: Center o Wrong for Convictions and Cordoza Law School in
22:24
Speaker 6: New York, and just started my quest of writing. And
22:27
Speaker 6: then over the years I would see people come home
22:31
Speaker 6: and that's what gave me hope, Like there is light
22:33
Speaker 6: at the end of the tunnel. So what I did
22:35
Speaker 6: when I was in prison, I just went to school,
22:37
Speaker 6: took my put my head down, I went to college
22:40
Speaker 6: and just wrote and tried to better myself for whenever
22:44
Speaker 6: the opportunity to represent a self for me to come home,
22:47
Speaker 6: and I was able to do it.
22:48
Speaker 4: How long were you in prison until that came about
22:51
Speaker 4: where you started to research and started to, you know,
22:55
Speaker 4: better yourself and make the and write the letters and
22:58
Speaker 4: kind of have that hope that start.
23:00
Speaker 6: I got convicted in nineteen ninety eight, and that started
23:03
Speaker 6: in nineteen ninety nine.
23:04
Speaker 4: Okay, so just about a year later you started.
23:07
Speaker 1: What was the first response that you got back where
23:10
Speaker 1: someone someone listened.
23:13
Speaker 6: They all would listen, but they would respond with our
23:17
Speaker 6: caseload is a little too heavy right now. Could you
23:20
Speaker 6: write us back in the spring, summer, fall, whatever, And
23:23
Speaker 6: I would do just that. I would write back. And
23:26
Speaker 6: it wasn't until two thousand and nine, mind you, I
23:29
Speaker 6: was scheduled to come home in twenty ten that I
23:33
Speaker 6: actually got a letter from Northwestern saying, hey, we want
23:36
Speaker 6: to come interview you about your case. And once they
23:40
Speaker 6: came to interview me, which was in January of twenty ten,
23:44
Speaker 6: you know, they took the case shortly thereafter, okay, and
23:47
Speaker 6: I was scheduled. But I came home in May of
23:49
Speaker 6: twenty ten, and that.
23:50
Speaker 2: Was on parole. Is that on correct?
23:52
Speaker 3: Yes?
23:52
Speaker 2: Okay, so you knew you.
23:53
Speaker 1: Would be up for parole, and then I assume you
23:56
Speaker 1: went to the parole board and then you were granted
23:59
Speaker 1: parole because you were I assume you were a model.
24:04
Speaker 5: I mean in Illinois don't have They didn't have the
24:07
Speaker 5: process of going to the parole.
24:08
Speaker 2: Okay, you were just eligible for paroles.
24:10
Speaker 6: I wasn't eligible for parole, but given the nature of
24:13
Speaker 6: the offense, sex offender, so I had to register and
24:18
Speaker 6: in order for me to come home, there was certain guidelines.
24:21
Speaker 6: Couldn't be by a park, couldn't be by school, couldn't
24:23
Speaker 6: live with just really weird, right, Yeah, so.
24:28
Speaker 4: You weren't really free.
24:29
Speaker 1: It was like you're on parole and you're you're allowed
24:32
Speaker 1: to leave prison. But then because this was a sex offense.
24:35
Speaker 4: Well then he had all these restrictions that really didn't
24:38
Speaker 4: apply to you because you weren't violent in nature regardless.
24:41
Speaker 6: You know, honestly, the prison was definitely hard. But when
24:45
Speaker 6: you're in prison and you try to better yourself, but
24:48
Speaker 6: when you come home and then only to come home,
24:51
Speaker 6: couldn't do anything. It was worse than jail in a sense.
24:56
Speaker 6: I was at home couldn't go to me. I've had
24:58
Speaker 6: to fight to get a job. When I did get
25:01
Speaker 6: a job, I was terrorized at the job by law enforcement.
25:04
Speaker 6: They would come check on me, like, took me to
25:08
Speaker 6: jail from my job, went and told my boss all
25:12
Speaker 6: type of lies about the case. It was really, really difficult.
25:18
Speaker 6: I had to go to counseling. I had to attend
25:20
Speaker 6: sex offender counseling.
25:22
Speaker 4: It's almost less stressful in the cell, right because you didn't.
25:25
Speaker 6: Have to listen, shane't I had to pay. Yeah, I
25:28
Speaker 6: was broke fresh out of jail. I had to pay
25:31
Speaker 6: and listen to people who have actually committed sexual offenses.
25:37
Speaker 6: And I couldn't relate to it. I was like, what
25:40
Speaker 6: want and I had to sit through that. If not,
25:42
Speaker 6: I will go back to jail. They sent me back
25:45
Speaker 6: to jail for that because I'm like, they told me
25:48
Speaker 6: part of my rehabilitation was to you had to admit
25:53
Speaker 6: to get the treatment that you want. Right, I'm like never.
25:56
Speaker 6: I'm thirty two now, I'm like never again. When I
25:58
Speaker 6: admit to something I didn't do, you can take me
26:01
Speaker 6: back to jail. And they took me back to jail.
26:04
Speaker 2: Really, really, I didn't know that part of your story.
26:07
Speaker 1: So you got out on parole. You had to do
26:10
Speaker 1: all this therapy and things because you're a sex offender.
26:13
Speaker 1: I mean, you're legel as a sex offender. You have
26:17
Speaker 1: to pay to go to these classes, and then you
26:20
Speaker 1: have to admit that you're a sex offender. And you
26:23
Speaker 1: refuse to do that. I refuse to do so they
26:25
Speaker 1: took you back to prison.
26:27
Speaker 6: Yes, and my attorney raised all types of hell and
26:31
Speaker 6: got me out in like seven days. But I had
26:35
Speaker 6: I had a representation to help me. People that don't
26:38
Speaker 6: have representation. You know what, You're going back.
26:40
Speaker 4: To jail, and you didn't know it'd only be seven days.
26:42
Speaker 6: You know, if I thought, I thought I was going
26:44
Speaker 6: to be there until my parole time was out. And
26:48
Speaker 6: at that point, honestly, I couldn't do anything. I was
26:51
Speaker 6: so frustrated. I was scared to drive, right, law enforcement
26:55
Speaker 6: get behind my mother's car.
26:57
Speaker 5: I'm scared. I'm thinking they're gonna pull us over, right.
27:00
Speaker 6: So it was I was almost like, should I just
27:03
Speaker 6: go back to jail because I can't do anything? And
27:06
Speaker 6: out here in society because you won't allow me to
27:08
Speaker 6: do anything. So it was that was being released in
27:12
Speaker 6: prison on parole was in a lot of ways a
27:15
Speaker 6: little bit harder than jail in a sense because in
27:18
Speaker 6: jail I had school, I had a routine right that
27:22
Speaker 6: I could do. Here, I had no routine, couldn't go anywhere,
27:26
Speaker 6: I couldn't do anything. Every movement I would have to
27:29
Speaker 6: call I need, I want to go to Ralphs. I'm
27:33
Speaker 6: going at eleven o'clock and I'll be there from eleven
27:37
Speaker 6: thirty to twelve. And I have to request the movement
27:42
Speaker 6: every time you wanted to leave it, every time I
27:44
Speaker 6: left that.
27:45
Speaker 1: And then I assume you also had to make sure
27:46
Speaker 1: that that Ralphs wasn't what what is it one hundred
27:48
Speaker 1: feet or whatever? One hundred yards is within school zone
27:52
Speaker 1: or something.
27:53
Speaker 5: So it was, it was, really, it was, It was
27:55
Speaker 5: really it was difficult doing so.
27:57
Speaker 1: Then you got to the point though where you were
28:00
Speaker 1: only just out on Pearl, but you were actually exonerated.
28:03
Speaker 2: That's correct. Was that through what organization? Was that through that?
28:07
Speaker 6: It was through Northwestern Center and wrong cool convictions of you?
28:10
Speaker 1: Okay, so they actually had your conviction overturned. Correct, right,
28:15
Speaker 1: And then once that happened, then you could was it more?
28:18
Speaker 1: Did you move more freely at that point, were you.
28:20
Speaker 5: Yeah.
28:21
Speaker 6: I was able to move freely at that point because
28:23
Speaker 6: I had again, I had a monitor on, and then
28:26
Speaker 6: I had a GPS tracker, which was like the old
28:28
Speaker 6: sail phones, right, the brick phones back in the.
28:30
Speaker 4: Eighties that you had to carry with you had to
28:32
Speaker 4: carry that.
28:33
Speaker 5: With me everywhere I went.
28:35
Speaker 6: But after that I was able to, you know, get
28:38
Speaker 6: that normalcy back, so to speak.
28:39
Speaker 4: I imagine it wasn't overnight though, right like the next day.
28:42
Speaker 4: Didn't just wake up and felt free to move about?
28:45
Speaker 4: Did it take a while to feel that you were
28:48
Speaker 4: free to move about however you wish without having a
28:52
Speaker 4: call and someone looking over your shoulder getting pulled over?
28:55
Speaker 5: And now that first day, I was like, I'm free,
28:58
Speaker 5: I'm out.
28:58
Speaker 4: Oh wow, I glad there was no you were even
29:06
Speaker 4: waiting for that day.
29:07
Speaker 5: I was on.
29:08
Speaker 6: I was on house arrest for I came Holme May
29:12
Speaker 6: May twenty ten, and I was the case was overturned
29:15
Speaker 6: in October about twenty eleven.
29:18
Speaker 5: It was like eighteen months. Yeah, yeah, So I was like, gone, good.
29:23
Speaker 6: And let me go out because I've been wanting to
29:25
Speaker 6: go out, right, I couldn't even go out past twelve,
29:28
Speaker 6: so I stayed out. I actually just went and stayed
29:30
Speaker 6: with my grandmother. The first night, my first full night
29:33
Speaker 6: of being free sleepover. I just went and slept over
29:36
Speaker 6: with my grandmother and just hung out with her.
29:38
Speaker 2: So, yeah, oh that's really sweet. How was your mom
29:42
Speaker 2: during all of that?
29:44
Speaker 5: It's still a struggle, Yeah, is your mom?
29:46
Speaker 2: And your mom's still alive.
29:47
Speaker 6: Yeah she is. She's still alive, thankfully, and doing well.
29:50
Speaker 6: Her and my sister. They live in Las Vegas now.
29:54
Speaker 6: But it was a struggle, still is. You know, my
29:56
Speaker 6: mother is still dealing with trauma from what happened to me,
30:00
Speaker 6: from her baby being snatched away from her and her
30:04
Speaker 6: not feeling like she's she wasn't there to protect me.
30:07
Speaker 4: The helplessness that she felt.
30:09
Speaker 6: She feels, she still feels that no matter what I
30:12
Speaker 6: do now, as far as passing legislation, what I do,
30:16
Speaker 6: as far as speaking, she still there's nothing not going
30:19
Speaker 6: to do to feel that void.
30:21
Speaker 2: Right, she missed so many years with you.
30:23
Speaker 1: I mean, you were taken away at seventeen, and you
30:25
Speaker 1: were gone for nearly fifteen years. I mean, I can't
30:28
Speaker 1: imagine I have three kids. I can't imagine just one
30:31
Speaker 1: day they end up in a police station interrogated, Like.
30:36
Speaker 4: They say, survivor's guilt, right, So almost like I would
30:39
Speaker 4: feel guilty as a parent, Like am I supposed to
30:41
Speaker 4: go out and have fun? Am I allowed to have
30:42
Speaker 4: a nice dinner? When my child is wrongfully you know, incarcerated?
30:47
Speaker 4: It would be very hard. So I imagine your mother
30:49
Speaker 4: had a really tough time just being able to be
30:52
Speaker 4: herself without having that on her mind, and the emotions
30:55
Speaker 4: that would be really heavy.
30:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, what inspires me about this guy among everything just heard?
31:00
Speaker 3: But you hear that story and think you'd be full
31:03
Speaker 3: of like like hatred and anger. He's not, though, No,
31:06
Speaker 3: And we've become close friends and done so much stuff together.
31:09
Speaker 3: And when he talked about like nobody nobody would listen.
31:12
Speaker 3: He wants somebody to listen, Like people listen now to
31:14
Speaker 3: this man, and he's making an impact. When when Trell
31:17
Speaker 3: shares his experience was traumatic every time you share it,
31:20
Speaker 3: like it's even though he said it a million times,
31:22
Speaker 3: I'm sure there's there's trauma there. When he shares that
31:25
Speaker 3: in front of other law enforcement, investigators, legislative bodies, other
31:28
Speaker 3: people who are in similar situations, like it just sends
31:32
Speaker 3: shockwave systems and now Yeah, exactly right.
31:36
Speaker 6: Yeah, especially because that part there's no you can there's
31:39
Speaker 6: no hate.
31:40
Speaker 4: I don't.
31:41
Speaker 5: I don't hate law enforcement, right.
31:43
Speaker 6: I dislike the people that did this to me, right,
31:47
Speaker 6: and my hatred is not going to push the needle forward, right.
31:50
Speaker 6: I figured, like Dave said, it's people who have enough
31:53
Speaker 6: resentment to his law enforcement.
31:55
Speaker 5: I don't need to add to it.
31:56
Speaker 6: I want to make the situation better, and me making
31:59
Speaker 6: it better, me being able to come out and speak
32:02
Speaker 6: to law enforcement, with law enforcement to help push the
32:05
Speaker 6: needle forward, because I feel like what God has put
32:08
Speaker 6: me through, what I went through to get out and
32:09
Speaker 6: delivered this message.
32:11
Speaker 1: That's such an inspiring message. That you walked away from
32:14
Speaker 1: that situation not hateful, but wanting to make a change.
32:17
Speaker 1: And the fact that you how did you meet Dave?
32:19
Speaker 1: How did you guys end up working together and working.
32:22
Speaker 3: On the legislation and then we did another TV appearance.
32:26
Speaker 3: He always looks better than me. Yeah, this brick phone
32:32
Speaker 3: you're talking about, that's why your biceps are so damned.
32:36
Speaker 3: But we got to work on that together. And so
32:38
Speaker 3: cool to hear, you know, especially if you're trying to
32:41
Speaker 3: pitch something to a legislative body, and you're hearing it
32:43
Speaker 3: from an academic space, maybe at law enforcement training, and
32:47
Speaker 3: you hear from somebody with a lived experience, it's just
32:49
Speaker 3: so much more impactful. And you just connected over the years,
32:52
Speaker 3: and it's always cool to do this this kind of
32:53
Speaker 3: thing together because and then when you use the platform
32:56
Speaker 3: of media, which you guys have, it just helps educate
33:00
Speaker 3: the juror like the public. And I think that's what
33:04
Speaker 3: all these this exposure is so good to change the system.
33:13
Speaker 1: What do you want the listeners to take away to
33:15
Speaker 1: be Terrell when you tell your story and Dave when
33:17
Speaker 1: you tell what you're involved in, What do you hope
33:20
Speaker 1: people take away after listening to this.
33:22
Speaker 3: I think there's two separate things. One is, understand investigators
33:25
Speaker 3: do have a difficult job, right, you have to try
33:27
Speaker 3: to sit across from somebody, and you have a lot
33:30
Speaker 3: of pressure from the community from representing the victim, for
33:33
Speaker 3: public safety. How do I get reliable information? What are
33:36
Speaker 3: the tools? And so that's what we're here trying to
33:38
Speaker 3: help educate investigators. So there's that piece. And then the
33:41
Speaker 3: second piece is don't take a confession as gold evidence. Right,
33:45
Speaker 3: we talked about that earlier. You can have DNA evidence
33:48
Speaker 3: and witness identification. But if somebody said I did it,
33:52
Speaker 3: it's so hard for people to get past true. Yeah,
33:56
Speaker 3: And so I think if you have a chance to
33:58
Speaker 3: be on a jury, or or even if you're just
34:00
Speaker 3: sitting on your couch watching a movie about a case,
34:04
Speaker 3: just because somebody said I did it, try to figure
34:05
Speaker 3: out how did we get to that process right? How
34:07
Speaker 3: did we get to the end result? And that might
34:09
Speaker 3: give you a little more skepticism about the reliability of it.
34:13
Speaker 1: So you're saying that takeaway should be for listeners out there,
34:15
Speaker 1: if you ever have the opportunity to sit on a jury,
34:19
Speaker 1: to be more mindful, to be more analytical, to listen more,
34:22
Speaker 1: to dig deeper, not to take everything at face value.
34:25
Speaker 1: I think is that what the takeaway would be.
34:27
Speaker 3: You think if you're just watching true crime, you're saying, Okay,
34:29
Speaker 3: there's fingerprint evidence, and there's usually an expert that says, well,
34:32
Speaker 3: here's how we lifted the fingerprint and here's the type
34:34
Speaker 3: of match that we use when it comes to confession evidence.
34:37
Speaker 3: Start thinking the same way, like, how did we get there,
34:40
Speaker 3: what was the process that was used? And investigator should
34:43
Speaker 3: do the same thing. So, yeah, A little more skepticism information. Right,
34:47
Speaker 3: We're all guilty of it. Like we were talking about police,
34:49
Speaker 3: but parents have told their kids. My parents told me
34:52
Speaker 3: that my mom's got eyes on the back of her
34:53
Speaker 3: head forever. Yeah, that's the false evidence ploy. Like if
34:56
Speaker 3: I do our kids to get confessions, like it's gut
34:59
Speaker 3: feeling and things.
35:00
Speaker 2: I mean kids, McDonald's is closed exactly.
35:06
Speaker 4: You make a good point though about like if they
35:08
Speaker 4: want to show a fingerprint or something, they have to
35:10
Speaker 4: have an expert, right, or or blood splatter samples or whatever.
35:15
Speaker 4: They have experts come in and really dissect it a
35:18
Speaker 4: lot so much that I think a lot of it
35:20
Speaker 4: goes over our heads, right, we're like, I don't know.
35:21
Speaker 4: They cried the skull cracked, so we die, That's all
35:24
Speaker 4: I know. But same with a confession. But you read
35:26
Speaker 4: a confession or you hear confession, you just that you
35:29
Speaker 4: run with it. Oh, Okay, he said he did she
35:32
Speaker 4: said he did it. That's it. But why not why
35:34
Speaker 4: not dig further? Well, what's it actually say? I don't
35:37
Speaker 4: know if you hand wrote it, but what did it
35:39
Speaker 4: actually say in the video when they confessed or when
35:42
Speaker 4: they wrote it down, or what were the circumstances surrounding
35:45
Speaker 4: that and.
35:46
Speaker 3: Watch the whole movie, not just the end.
35:48
Speaker 4: Yeah.
35:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, So a lot of courts are now allowing experts
35:50
Speaker 3: to talk about confession evidence and social science, which is great,
35:53
Speaker 3: but when it's recorded, we've also seen all right, let's
35:56
Speaker 3: just watch the end of the movie, you know, here's
35:58
Speaker 3: the here's the confession, versus let's watch the whole thing.
36:01
Speaker 4: All right, seventy two hours that.
36:03
Speaker 3: Yeah. The first time I taught a class to police
36:06
Speaker 3: on false confessions, I was trying to think, how do I,
36:09
Speaker 3: like you mentioned, I don't want to offend the investigator.
36:11
Speaker 3: I want to help educate on the change. So I
36:13
Speaker 3: showed just the end, but here's a confession. What do
36:15
Speaker 3: you all think? And it seems it's reliable, there's details,
36:19
Speaker 3: It's like, how would you not believe this to be true?
36:21
Speaker 3: Then I went through all the causes of false confessions,
36:24
Speaker 3: lying about evidence and leading questions and threats and promises.
36:27
Speaker 3: Then we watched the first two hours before the confession,
36:31
Speaker 3: and after the class, nobody believed this confession to be true.
36:33
Speaker 2: Wow.
36:34
Speaker 3: And it's the same thing that juries have to go
36:37
Speaker 3: through and tryers a fact is like what led to them?
36:39
Speaker 4: That's great. So you got them to draw their own conclusions.
36:41
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I thought this was valid, right and legitimate,
36:45
Speaker 4: and now I've seen that it's not.
36:48
Speaker 3: That's how I feel like you need to impact change.
36:50
Speaker 3: People need to experience it versus just being told.
36:53
Speaker 6: And that's how the jury gets it right. Just the package.
36:55
Speaker 6: Here's the here's a statement. This is what it is.
36:58
Speaker 6: But I'm not take into account things that the stress
37:01
Speaker 6: or the pressures that or the things that was promised
37:04
Speaker 6: leading up to this confession that got them to the
37:06
Speaker 6: false confession.
37:07
Speaker 5: So very powerful.
37:09
Speaker 2: Mh. What what for you? Trella? Is the most rewarding
37:12
Speaker 2: about what you do? Now? I know that you're pushing
37:14
Speaker 2: for legislation.
37:15
Speaker 1: I know.
37:15
Speaker 2: Do you you also work with I think both of you.
37:18
Speaker 1: Do you work with new exoneries on just working to
37:22
Speaker 1: assimilate back into life and do you mentor and what
37:25
Speaker 1: is it that you're doing now?
37:26
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I'm doing a couple of things now.
37:30
Speaker 6: Have work for organization, Life after Justice, all Exonery Lived
37:34
Speaker 6: experience led organization that's trying to do exactly that attack
37:39
Speaker 6: this problem through the mental health aspect. We're trying to
37:41
Speaker 6: you know, have you know mental health resources for people
37:44
Speaker 6: that come home. We're trying to you know, we have
37:47
Speaker 6: a survey where we're compiling just different, different information and
37:52
Speaker 6: feedback from the community on things that's really needed because
37:56
Speaker 6: the community is we're missing a lot, right, we don't
37:59
Speaker 6: we don't have we don't have resources come home. It's
38:01
Speaker 6: crazy to say this, but a person who has actually
38:04
Speaker 6: done a crime has more resources at his disposal and
38:10
Speaker 6: someone who has not, who has.
38:11
Speaker 4: Been It triggers a lot of programs.
38:15
Speaker 6: You have re entry programs and stuff like that. You know,
38:18
Speaker 6: they may not be the best, but at least you
38:19
Speaker 6: can you are you have something when you're exonerated, you
38:23
Speaker 6: are any of that. Yeah, you're not eligible for not
38:27
Speaker 6: to go for life, you know, you go get a job.
38:31
Speaker 6: Where have you been the last fifteen twenty years? You
38:34
Speaker 6: have to go through what is going what what happened
38:38
Speaker 6: to you?
38:39
Speaker 5: Right?
38:39
Speaker 2: So, but to explain it and try to.
38:43
Speaker 6: That's triggering, right, And it's like you want to just
38:45
Speaker 6: get out and live and move on. But every step
38:49
Speaker 6: in an apartment, you know, job, whatever, where have you
38:54
Speaker 6: been these last x amount of years? And again you
38:56
Speaker 6: have to reopen those wounds. So we're trying to with
38:58
Speaker 6: life after justice, but kind to make it a smooth
39:01
Speaker 6: run way for you know, exouneries and free people when
39:04
Speaker 6: they come home to have something to you know, to
39:07
Speaker 6: hold on to. I also work with back in Illinois
39:10
Speaker 6: the wrongful Conviction. It's called wrong coul Conviction Avoidance and Awareness,
39:15
Speaker 6: and we go out and we speak to cadet law
39:17
Speaker 6: enforcement in Illinois. We're trying to get this class pushed
39:21
Speaker 6: in different states. But that is so that has been
39:24
Speaker 6: so rewarding. It's myself and a host of other exounarees
39:28
Speaker 6: and we go to speak to different cadets that you
39:31
Speaker 6: know that gets that gets hired through throughout the Illinois region,
39:34
Speaker 6: whether it be Chicago Police Department, Southern Illinois. We go
39:38
Speaker 6: out and talk to them and let them know our
39:39
Speaker 6: experience so that they can avoid the same pitfalls that
39:43
Speaker 6: led to us being wrongfully convicted. So I'm truly happy
39:47
Speaker 6: to do that. I mean, I love doing that because
39:49
Speaker 6: that's pushing the needle forward, right. I love doing the
39:52
Speaker 6: legislative work to ultimately, you know, put barriers to not
39:57
Speaker 6: allow law enforcement to lie to the youth. But we
39:59
Speaker 6: should and be lying to anybody for that matter, especially
40:02
Speaker 6: like Dave said, with the technology that we have now.
40:05
Speaker 6: But the most you know, I'm happy about that and
40:09
Speaker 6: most happy about you know, I'm a proud new dad,
40:12
Speaker 6: you know, proud new dad of my son born May
40:17
Speaker 6: third and little na Sr Nacier or Mari Swift, that
40:25
Speaker 6: is my son's name. So he was born May third,
40:30
Speaker 6: twenty twenty six, and I was released from prison May third,
40:33
Speaker 6: twenty ten.
40:35
Speaker 5: So that's a lot of wisdom.
40:37
Speaker 1: That's that's so interesting. Coincidental maybe not, no, no, but
40:42
Speaker 1: that's really cool. And Terrell also he you have three
40:45
Speaker 1: daughters too. So I've met Terrell's wife. He has a
40:48
Speaker 1: beautiful wife named Lynette, and he has three daughters that
40:51
Speaker 1: I've met. Gorgeous, polite. You have such a beautiful family.
40:55
Speaker 5: Thank you, so yeah, And I'm.
40:57
Speaker 1: So in congratulations on your new son. And every time
41:00
Speaker 1: I see you and I see your girls and I
41:02
Speaker 1: see Lynette, I just it makes me so happy that
41:05
Speaker 1: you took such a horrible situation that you had to
41:08
Speaker 1: go through and you have created such a beautiful life.
41:12
Speaker 1: And the fact that you've taken your beautiful life and
41:14
Speaker 1: then you go out there and you continue to speak
41:17
Speaker 1: and like you said, push the needle forward. And educate
41:20
Speaker 1: and talk about what you went through is so inspiring.
41:23
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for what you do. Thank
41:25
Speaker 1: you and thank you for being here and sharing your story.
41:28
Speaker 1: It means so much and I'm sure that our listeners
41:31
Speaker 1: will be impacted by it. And Dave, thank you for
41:34
Speaker 1: sharing your knowledge. And if there's anyone out there in
41:37
Speaker 1: a police department that would like some education, please reach
41:40
Speaker 1: out to us because I think it's so important what
41:42
Speaker 1: you do, Dave.
41:42
Speaker 3: So thank you guys for the platform. And my job's
41:45
Speaker 3: easier because of Trelle Sharon stories like it so makes
41:48
Speaker 3: it makes it much more impassive.
41:49
Speaker 1: You guys are a good team. Yeah, great working with you.
41:52
Speaker 1: So thank you guys, both of you for being here.
41:53
Speaker 1: I appreciate it so much. All right, thank you guys
41:56
Speaker 1: so much for listening to Legally Brunette. As always, you
41:58
Speaker 1: can follow us on our own fee. If you have
42:00
Speaker 1: any recommendations of cases or anything you would like to
42:03
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42:06
Speaker 1: please tell your friends and family. Also, if you would
42:09
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42:12
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42:14
Speaker 1: to donate As always, the NOSN Center needs money to
42:18
Speaker 1: be able to function and to provide services and legal
42:22
Speaker 1: support for people that are wrongfully convicted. It's Innocentcenter dot
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Speaker 1: you have, you know it's it's always helpful and we
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Speaker 1: appreciate it so much, so thank you for listening.